If set mining is the consideration, then the opportunity was available in the first action, after this limp/complete, I'd just check it for the $0, and look at the flop. I don't see many good reasons to make a something pot, out of a nothing pot. If this guy is going to be sitting on my right for a while, and he is a known stealer, I don't mind giving him a couple of nothing pots, it may lead to him to falsely believing that he can run me over. In this spot there are two things I like. The first, is the opportunity to flop huge, and the other is to give my opponent some psychological rope, and a chance to make a huge mistake later when he again limp/completes, and hopefully also bets while out of position. If my opponent and I establish a default pattern, I will have more opportunities to invest $0 while I am in position, and I might get multiple chances to flop something weird that crushes him and he will have no idea what I have.
Hmm, honestly I don't think 4-betting preflop with intention of inducing a 5bet-shove to call it off is a good idea. Most of his "bluffs" actually are coinflips vs our sevens (like T9, K8, etc.). So we are not doing great when he jams. We don't make him fold better hands either (except for A8 or A9 maybe). So, calling 3bet in position is probably fine eventhough playing it postflop is extremely tricky 90% of the time.
FWIW, calling the LRR is the default play. The video just highlights that calling SOLELY to setmine is a mistake. It's rarely going to be fun going postflop, but knowing what the mindset is when calling that 3bet is really important.
Calling 3-bet with 77 is awful, most often you will end up with 2 overcards, by the river with 3 or even 4 overcards. My strategy for 77 on sb is limp/call iso or raise/fold. No sense in set mining since you're not even 100BB deep (Villain has 90BB)
I enjoyed this hand because it's at a much higher level than most of the hands reviewed on this channel. The lower level hands are good for me since I need those get those fundamentals, but it get's a little boring to watch yet another hand where the he has to say that the SPR is so low that you're getting it in, it's just a matter of how.
I disagree with the 4bet size. The SPR difference between 4.5k and 6k isn't large enough to override the fact that by essentially min 4-betting we eliminate most of the bluffs in our range; if our opponent had something like 13k behind instead then I agree that the 6k size is committal, but with 16k behind a thinking villain will see that a total bluff 4bet may still fold since 3.4 to 1 implies that we need to win nearly a quarter of the time to call. Our 4.5k raise tells the villain that we have a value hand and makes it much more likely that we're running into a hand that smashes us (88+) if they ship it, assuming that we're just going to snap call any shove.
Basically the problem with the 4.5k raise is that it doesn't have any fold equity implying a value hand, and a thinking villain will thus be less likely to ship on us with a bluff. By raising slightly bigger to a normal 4bet size we keep our bluffs alive.
Before even starting the video, the first thing I'm looking at is the other stacks at the table. If there's a good number of people under 20BB and someone open limps then re-raises, 77 is a snap fold for me.
@jc jones the only problem with the call is that 7s are going to get tricky to play. You need a really good range read for a limp-re-raise, because you're not just calling pre-flop. If you're calling pre-flop it's with intention to call flop maybe barring an Ace or King. If you call flop, then what do you do facing a bet on the turn if an A, K, or Q shows? With the stack sizes, you might be getting it in by the river and if you believe you're ahead enough of the time on pre-flop then you're kinda committing yourself to that line. Otherwise, just fold pre. From my point of view, I think raise-fold is fine. Unless you have so much information you know how to navigate a very thin margin profitably. Cause there's not enough stack to straight set mine. And if he's that loose there will be better opportunities. I definitely don't like the idea of 4-betting with intention to call off a shove, unless you think villain is jamming 22-66 in this spot.
I hate the idea of 4-betting to get it in preflop with so many bb. He surely has nutted hands often enough to make this a bad play. We're risking 16k to win 3k. When people make a play like this there range is usually quite polarised. He needs to have rags more than 5x as often to make it profitable to 4-bet call ( maybe 4 times as we do win 20% of the time) . I don't think the villain is going to 5-bet bluff here, our line looks too strong and I don't think he expects us to be 4 bet folding in this spot. If the player is loose we can get it in with a better hand then 7's. I think if I played this hand I'd raise 3x the blind and fold if he made it 1800 or whatever. Also his call off with 8 outs is really bad. If he's willing to call off with such bad odds we don't need to force ourselves into a marginal and difficult spot where we don't know where we're at.
How many nutted hands does he really have? Does he really limp with ALL combos of his JJ+? Or maybe half of them? Or maybe just some combos of KK+? Once you remove the big pairs, he's only left with coinflip hands and hands were we dominate like 54, A3, etc. If you are raise/folding in this spot, you allow him to just reverse the typical steal/resteal situation in his favor and you'd be folding way too often in this spot. Also, don't forget that picking up 9BB uncontested while also sending the message "I'm not just going to roll over" is huge.
Maybe he does this with queens+ when he has nutted hands. I like to have as much info as possible when I'm in a hand and i Just don't know where I'm at here, which is why I would fold. I would only give this credit the first time he tried it and make note of it . if he did it again I might take the line of 4bet to get it in (assuming this exact spot came up again) I think calling is the worst play. Even when he is bluffing, he has decent equity vs our 77 with some of the raggy hands he has. Your definitely right that making a stand will make him less inclined to mess with us in the future.
The Poker Bank Well, we kind of know that he doesn't really do this with all combos of anything. It's specifically a deviation from his normal tendency which is to steal from this spot. I think this is less a combo read and more a soul read from the get-go. I think the first question about the existing dynamics is absolutely the most important one. If this guy is stealing a lot (which I think a lot of good players will do at the ass end of the ring), then we should assume he would also open raise his strong hands, if he's any good. If we think this guy is a bit fishy and is really just more interested in knocking off blinds than getting it in with value, then we put a lot more crap in his range. Having other info like, is he getting involved in hands with things like T3suited, 89off, overplaying his hands, etc... I'd assume if he's calling the turn for his whole stack in a tournament with a double gutter he's probably giving away this kind of info left and right.
Hi thepokerbank, you were saying about plans about how to play the turn when undercard or overcard comes on the turn. I hope to hear you elaborate more on that. Still learning on planning.. Where could i read books or get more info on strategizimg and planning for next card or next move.?? Thank you..
the raise of his open limp is way too big, and without antes, 90bb deep, i don´t mind checking behind and go from there. as played, i like calling better than 4bet/gii due to stack preservation. flop is good, but turn makes absolutely no sense with your prior plan, you got the nuts on a board as dry as it gets vs a in your eyes polarized range of nutted overpairs and air. why on earth would you ever raise here? you got lucky that your read on villain was wrong, he´s not a LAG, that´s just a button clicker who made a truly horrific call on the turn...
Great Video, blind vs blind pot is the most difficult to analysis. Question, what do you think about raise on the flop vs flatting ? I pause at this spot almost always, not sure what to do. Thank you James
I'm raising on this specific flop ... I think lots of worse hands (especially two over cards) will call the raise. And there's the added benefit of not letting villian set the price to draw (In other words, we fold out villain's equity by raising.) On a final note, if I'm re-raised then I have to decide if villian is capable of doing so as a bluff.
i just dont like raising at turn, if you do think his hand is very worst and that is a large range of bluffing, why don't keep these hands bluffing? raising this spot just get you called with top pair or overpair...
if I 4-bet pre and he just flats then surely it's the exact same position when I just flat the 3-bet pre (other than position), all it's doing is inflating the pot and making me more uncomfortable when a flop connects with his bluffs what is the assumption that he is always going to jam in this spot and is it not more worthwhile to just completely shove (obviously a huge shove) but if we know he's not giving up his 3-bet pots then surely we know he's going to call and 77 has good equity in this scenario
+Vax0 except when you 4bet you have a chance to pick up the pot uncontested preflop and take a non-SD focused line instead of flatting the 3bet where you have zero chance of picking up a preflop fold AND you lose the lead in the hand.
don't get me wrong, I agree 4-betting seems the right action, I just feel as though a LAG who seems solely dedicated to his 3-bet won't be giving up a pot, as shown, he called the all-in with 6 high
If you were the sb and faced the jam on the turn------11,000 to win 28,,000 is roughly2.5 to 1 so sb needs 30% equity on turn to make this call which he's not getting with an open ended draw, right? Have I worked this out correctly
Norfolkjiujitsu It was a bad call. IF I were to stick to my bluff in this spot and get it all in, villain should have checked to hero and come back over the top. But given SPRs and the way the hand played, I'd probably assume hero is not looking to fold. I don't really hate the villain's line until the turn - but in villain's position I'd be giving up on my bluff here.
I'm not sure of the original raise surely your bloating a pot where you could be dominated or in a coin flip, your in position and have a good hand for your position but say this time he has QQ jj KK it's a sure way to lose a good proportion of your stack?
Norfolkjiujitsu but those hands make up so few combos compared to the bulk of his completion range (especially if you think he'd raise at least some of the JJ+ combos)
Why the hell did Villain call the shove with just an open ender? It’s not like he was beating a bluff with 6 high.
Villain is not a LAG. He is a maniac/fish. Totally different. Also; the idea of 4 betting 77 in a tournament is crazy.
Your idea of 4-betting the LAG to a small size to see where (s)he stands is very creative! I did not think of that.
If set mining is the consideration, then the opportunity was available in the first action, after this limp/complete, I'd just check it for the $0, and look at the flop.
I don't see many good reasons to make a something pot, out of a nothing pot.
If this guy is going to be sitting on my right for a while, and he is a known stealer, I don't mind giving him a couple of nothing pots, it may lead to him to falsely believing that he can run me over.
In this spot there are two things I like. The first, is the opportunity to flop huge, and the other is to give my opponent some psychological rope, and a chance to make a huge mistake later when he again limp/completes, and hopefully also bets while out of position.
If my opponent and I establish a default pattern, I will have more opportunities to invest $0 while I am in position, and I might get multiple chances to flop something weird that crushes him and he will have no idea what I have.
Hmm, honestly I don't think 4-betting preflop with intention of inducing a 5bet-shove to call it off is a good idea. Most of his "bluffs" actually are coinflips vs our sevens (like T9, K8, etc.). So we are not doing great when he jams. We don't make him fold better hands either (except for A8 or A9 maybe).
So, calling 3bet in position is probably fine eventhough playing it postflop is extremely tricky 90% of the time.
FWIW, calling the LRR is the default play. The video just highlights that calling SOLELY to setmine is a mistake. It's rarely going to be fun going postflop, but knowing what the mindset is when calling that 3bet is really important.
Calling 3-bet with 77 is awful, most often you will end up with 2 overcards, by the river with 3 or even 4 overcards. My strategy for 77 on sb is limp/call iso or raise/fold. No sense in set mining since you're not even 100BB deep (Villain has 90BB)
I enjoyed this hand because it's at a much higher level than most of the hands reviewed on this channel. The lower level hands are good for me since I need those get those fundamentals, but it get's a little boring to watch yet another hand where the he has to say that the SPR is so low that you're getting it in, it's just a matter of how.
Cool point about asking if there are any weird dynamics with the LAG when considering a preflop raise.
+McGavel1 Also, cool point about having a power plan early as SPR shrinks fast.
Thanks for your thoughts on the hand, I appreciate it.
You're very welcome Dean!
I disagree with the 4bet size. The SPR difference between 4.5k and 6k isn't large enough to override the fact that by essentially min 4-betting we eliminate most of the bluffs in our range; if our opponent had something like 13k behind instead then I agree that the 6k size is committal, but with 16k behind a thinking villain will see that a total bluff 4bet may still fold since 3.4 to 1 implies that we need to win nearly a quarter of the time to call. Our 4.5k raise tells the villain that we have a value hand and makes it much more likely that we're running into a hand that smashes us (88+) if they ship it, assuming that we're just going to snap call any shove.
Basically the problem with the 4.5k raise is that it doesn't have any fold equity implying a value hand, and a thinking villain will thus be less likely to ship on us with a bluff. By raising slightly bigger to a normal 4bet size we keep our bluffs alive.
Villain isn't a LAG, he's a whale-sized fish. Called a shove with air in a tournament when he had 55 big blinds left.
Before even starting the video, the first thing I'm looking at is the other stacks at the table. If there's a good number of people under 20BB and someone open limps then re-raises, 77 is a snap fold for me.
@jc jones the only problem with the call is that 7s are going to get tricky to play. You need a really good range read for a limp-re-raise, because you're not just calling pre-flop. If you're calling pre-flop it's with intention to call flop maybe barring an Ace or King. If you call flop, then what do you do facing a bet on the turn if an A, K, or Q shows? With the stack sizes, you might be getting it in by the river and if you believe you're ahead enough of the time on pre-flop then you're kinda committing yourself to that line. Otherwise, just fold pre.
From my point of view, I think raise-fold is fine. Unless you have so much information you know how to navigate a very thin margin profitably. Cause there's not enough stack to straight set mine. And if he's that loose there will be better opportunities.
I definitely don't like the idea of 4-betting with intention to call off a shove, unless you think villain is jamming 22-66 in this spot.
I hate the idea of 4-betting to get it in preflop with so many bb. He surely has nutted hands often enough to make this a bad play. We're risking 16k to win 3k. When people make a play like this there range is usually quite polarised. He needs to have rags more than 5x as often to make it profitable to 4-bet call ( maybe 4 times as we do win 20% of the time) . I don't think the villain is going to 5-bet bluff here, our line looks too strong and I don't think he expects us to be 4 bet folding in this spot. If the player is loose we can get it in with a better hand then 7's.
I think if I played this hand I'd raise 3x the blind and fold if he made it 1800 or whatever.
Also his call off with 8 outs is really bad. If he's willing to call off with such bad odds we don't need to force ourselves into a marginal and difficult spot where we don't know where we're at.
How many nutted hands does he really have? Does he really limp with ALL combos of his JJ+? Or maybe half of them? Or maybe just some combos of KK+? Once you remove the big pairs, he's only left with coinflip hands and hands were we dominate like 54, A3, etc. If you are raise/folding in this spot, you allow him to just reverse the typical steal/resteal situation in his favor and you'd be folding way too often in this spot. Also, don't forget that picking up 9BB uncontested while also sending the message "I'm not just going to roll over" is huge.
Maybe he does this with queens+ when he has nutted hands. I like to have as much info as possible when I'm in a hand and i Just don't know where I'm at here, which is why I would fold. I would only give this credit the first time he tried it and make note of it . if he did it again I might take the line of 4bet to get it in (assuming this exact spot came up again) I think calling is the worst play. Even when he is bluffing, he has decent equity vs our 77 with some of the raggy hands he has. Your definitely right that making a stand will make him less inclined to mess with us in the future.
The Poker Bank Well, we kind of know that he doesn't really do this with all combos of anything. It's specifically a deviation from his normal tendency which is to steal from this spot. I think this is less a combo read and more a soul read from the get-go. I think the first question about the existing dynamics is absolutely the most important one. If this guy is stealing a lot (which I think a lot of good players will do at the ass end of the ring), then we should assume he would also open raise his strong hands, if he's any good. If we think this guy is a bit fishy and is really just more interested in knocking off blinds than getting it in with value, then we put a lot more crap in his range. Having other info like, is he getting involved in hands with things like T3suited, 89off, overplaying his hands, etc... I'd assume if he's calling the turn for his whole stack in a tournament with a double gutter he's probably giving away this kind of info left and right.
he gave a lot of info...
Hi thepokerbank, you were saying about plans about how to play the turn when undercard or overcard comes on the turn.
I hope to hear you elaborate more on that.
Still learning on planning..
Where could i read books or get more info on strategizimg and planning for next card or next move.?? Thank you..
Shawn Chua ruclips.net/video/f6DCTeZEdaI/видео.html
the raise of his open limp is way too big, and without antes, 90bb deep, i don´t mind checking behind and go from there. as played, i like calling better than 4bet/gii due to stack preservation.
flop is good, but turn makes absolutely no sense with your prior plan, you got the nuts on a board as dry as it gets vs a in your eyes polarized range of nutted overpairs and air. why on earth would you ever raise here? you got lucky that your read on villain was wrong, he´s not a LAG, that´s just a button clicker who made a truly horrific call on the turn...
5 years ago. June 12th 2020
Great Video, blind vs blind pot is the most difficult to analysis.
Question, what do you think about raise on the flop vs flatting ? I pause at this spot almost always, not sure what to do.
Thank you James
fridayevening both have a ton of merit, just depends on your edges and what your raising range on the flop looks like.
I'm raising on this specific flop ... I think lots of worse hands (especially two over cards) will call the raise. And there's the added benefit of not letting villian set the price to draw (In other words, we fold out villain's equity by raising.)
On a final note, if I'm re-raised then I have to decide if villian is capable of doing so as a bluff.
What if villian turns over a big pair on a 5 bet shove? Would the 4 bet from hero still be a good play?
Xtraderr you'd plan for that BEFORE you even raise his completion tbh.
3:53 that flopzilla stat is all incorrect. 2-pair 0% of the time when he already holds one pocket pair? those numbers are bogus
i just dont like raising at turn, if you do think his hand is very worst and that is a large range of bluffing, why don't keep these hands bluffing? raising this spot just get you called with top pair or overpair...
if I 4-bet pre and he just flats then surely it's the exact same position when I just flat the 3-bet pre (other than position), all it's doing is inflating the pot and making me more uncomfortable when a flop connects with his bluffs
what is the assumption that he is always going to jam in this spot and is it not more worthwhile to just completely shove (obviously a huge shove) but if we know he's not giving up his 3-bet pots then surely we know he's going to call and 77 has good equity in this scenario
+Vax0 except when you 4bet you have a chance to pick up the pot uncontested preflop and take a non-SD focused line instead of flatting the 3bet where you have zero chance of picking up a preflop fold AND you lose the lead in the hand.
don't get me wrong, I agree 4-betting seems the right action, I just feel as though a LAG who seems solely dedicated to his 3-bet won't be giving up a pot, as shown, he called the all-in with 6 high
+Vax0 then you pump more money in when you have an edge - not much more you can ask for in poker =)
If you were the sb and faced the jam on the turn------11,000 to win 28,,000 is roughly2.5 to 1 so sb needs 30% equity on turn to make this call which he's not getting with an open ended draw, right? Have I worked this out correctly
Norfolkjiujitsu you've worked it out correctly :)
Norfolkjiujitsu It was a bad call. IF I were to stick to my bluff in this spot and get it all in, villain should have checked to hero and come back over the top. But given SPRs and the way the hand played, I'd probably assume hero is not looking to fold. I don't really hate the villain's line until the turn - but in villain's position I'd be giving up on my bluff here.
So the idea at pre-flop... is 4-bet or jam all in? Assuming the opponent raising with air a lot of times?
+Jimmy Koh a jam is too large imo.
I'm not sure of the original raise surely your bloating a pot where you could be dominated or in a coin flip, your in position and have a good hand for your position but say this time he has QQ jj KK it's a sure way to lose a good proportion of your stack?
Norfolkjiujitsu but those hands make up so few combos compared to the bulk of his completion range (especially if you think he'd raise at least some of the JJ+ combos)
Im sorry what is SPR?
Stack-to-Pot-Ratio. You can learn more about it with this video: ruclips.net/video/UwrkbXtJ55A/видео.html
holy shat wat site is this
It was live