Samuel Andreyev seems like a serious musician. I really appreciate his explanation & guidance in looking at Ferneyhough's trio. He really digs deep. Helpful, and WELL done!
Thank you for distilling a complex aesthetic for us lay people; it is very much appreciated. I was struck by your thoughts ~4:20ff on the inability to be perfectly accurate when playing Ferneyhough, and the resultant need on the part of a performer to synthesize or emphasize different aspects. The generation of "new perceptive spaces" reminds me of Wordsworth's comments that a poet must "create the taste by which he shall be appreciated." Thanks for taking the time to put this together. The quality and density of the analysis deserves much more exposure in this medium. Hopefully the channel grows!
"it's a complexity that comes from the mutual interaction & interference of different strands... you might have 3 or 4 different materials going on in a piece, they're evolving at different speeds & in different directions at the same time, and so while any one of these individual lines might be fairly straightforward, what happens is he crashes them into each other" -- this could easily describe Frownland
Thank you so much for this! Wonderful to hear such a lucid description of his compositional approach. Although it's incredible to hear him talking about his own work, it's often difficult to know exactly what he's referring to in terms of his processes, especially when it comes to how they're implemented and developed in open music. His use of language in his writing and in conversation is just as fascinating and complex as his music, but often hard to grasp. Your channel and videos are inspiring and I deeply appreciate what you're doing. Thanks again.
You're welcome, I'm glad to hear you enjoyed the video. Unfortunately, it only barely scratches the surface. It's very difficult to do justice both to his overall aesthetic (if one can speak in such general terms), and the details of a particular composition. While I enjoy Brian Ferneyhough's writings and have read them multiple times, there is often a strange vacuum between the concepts he describes, and their relationship to the surface / perception. Not a problem in and of itself, except that he tends to present his technical concepts as though they had some sort of straightforward perceptual currency in and of themselves (perhaps they do for him?). Frustratingly, few writers have addressed the multiple, and fruitful contradictions his music contains. So there's still lots of work to be done!
"perhaps they do for him?" One would certainly hope so. Otherwise, "he be trippin"! (Or else writing poetry.) I love his music and I think he knows what he's saying; but like his music, he meets the audience less than halfway.
Absolutely spectacular analysis as always; it really changes my opinion of Ferneyhough's music from being a straitjacket to performers, forcing them into certain rhythmic and tonal atmospheres that cannot differ between performances, to a music whose incredible variety and humor coalesce in the formal impossibility of an accurate concert. On a completely separate note, you mentioned that you were writing a cantata for voice and ensemble and had recently completed Iridescent Notations (to which I hope to hear a recording of or, if the stars aline, a performance in concert). Whenever I consider writing a vocal work with any sort of modernistic aesthetic, I always think of Elliott Carter and sometimes feel uncomfortable writing in a style that relates to Carter, as I believe his settings of the voice to be the perfect combination of formal and emotional structures, and my desire to reflect Carter's "perfected" language makes it difficult to produce a piece that I think is of a worthy standard as I use a borrowed artifact. Therefore, do you ever feel like you are constrained in writing in a particular genre as there is a sort of "shadow" that hovers over it by a composer whose influence on your own thinking makes it difficult not to imitate?
Noah Mayer Spore Great question Noah. Iridescent Notation is not quite complete, I still have two sections to finish (out of 7). The piecf will be premiered in Kiev in the spring. I don't feel particularly constrained by previous masterworks in a given genre. On the contrary, they can stand as a challenge -- to see if I can do something as good or better, on my own terms. Not a lot of 20th c. composers were able to develop a personal and convincing approach to the voice. One of the best is Betsy Jolas -- whom I will be discussing shortly on this channel.
Nice introduction to OpenMusic and Ferneyhough, always wandered how the heck he comes up with all that rhythms. A great inspiration for my composing process!
A good Christmas present. I have admired Ferneyhough for some time. Sometimes, with such difficult music I sit at some distance from the loudspeakers and just let the sounds speak for themselves like crazy, funny creatures beating and scrambling at my window pane but then one needs to return to analysis. I can imagine how the bombed city affected him but like other composers, he is reflecting on a shattered world.
Thanks again for a great analysis. I might even grow to like Ferneyhough one day... I would love to hear your analysis of women composers too, especially of Gubaidulina, Chaya Czernovin and Saariaho
Hey Samuel - wonderful video! You mentioned a book during your analysis and I missed the name of it and sifted through the comments to see if anyone else had asked. I would love to get my hands on a copy. Thanks so much for this video. Ferneyhough's music is so wonderfully brilliant and not explored enough, in my opinion, in the theory universe.
Excellent clear and concise explanation of the construction of some very esoteric music and how to approach it. Nice explanation of OpenMusic too, been trying to use graphs and grids to analyse a friend's art to generate compositional form, and each time I return to it I end up revising something about my method (which gets in the way of the actual act of writing music) - this program seems like it could be a perfect time-saver on that front. Saw Ferneyhough in November at HCMF, where he did a talk along with James Dillon, and then later had a performance with Ensemble Modern (which made novel but beautiful use of steel drums). Have definitely had worse evenings than that one.
Thanks for this comment. OpenMusic is a great resource, but not terribly intuitive to use -- you need to wade through the two volumes of IRCAM's OM books to get the most out of it. However, if you're willing to put the time in, and it suits what you're trying to do, it can open up a lot of possibilities.
Wow ! The nested tuplet rhythms kills me ! What a challenge now I'm falling into Ferneyhough's world . My music will be changing in ways I might not ever have come up with ! I knew there had to be some type of systemization behind all that notation and performance direction on page . Idea of intervention disrupting the music : Ifine idea . Now I'm gonna try this ! I can't believe Ferneyhough has been in the U.S. all this time . it's taken me so long to get to his music . I loved the way it looks on the page when I first saw it 25 years ago but didn't know what I was listening to . Now because of Architecture , film theory and some ideas in physics ( I know very little technically ) I get and care very much about what he explores and gives us !
I'm a frustrated composer. It takes me too long. I needed to learn patience, along with mental efficiency. Man, I appreciate good/great composers. Still, I participate in music, and I'm creative...in flashes.
We could get the same effect that Ferneyhough accomplishes by playing-say- Bartok on your PC, Shostakovitch on your HiFi, Stravinsky on your radio and Ligeti on an MP3 player...simultaneously.
Hello! I am a composer from Japan. Your analysis and your thought on Contemporary music is amazing! I was wondering if I could add Chinese subtitles to your videos and repost them on a Chinese content-sharing website Bilibili? Please let me know if you would be comfortable with this. Thank you!
Very informative and analytical. I would very much like to hear your analysis of works by other "complexity" composers, namely Chris Dench or James Dillon...
Hello Matthew, thank you for your suggestion. I only know those pieces superficially but I intend to get to know them better. Thank you for the reminder. My next video, coming in a few days, will be an extended interview with 92 year old French composer Betsy Jolas on her life, work and esthetics.
This is a wonderfully illuminating and demystifying video! As for the paucity of 20th century string trios, I particularly enjoy Jean Cras' String Trio. It has kind of a rustic feel. Also you should check out Akira Nishimura's String quartet no 2 (the score is on youtube) -- maybe I'm over reaching but I can hear Bartok, Penderecki, and Radulescu in it.
so, in the end, ferneyhough does very simple things, and gives all the real work to a) the computer, b) the performer, c) the listener. it would be far better if he just wrote all this by himself during several weeks, rather than just arranging the complex results of simple thoughts. this basic rhythmic permutations are interesting, but it would be great to actually hear them and their relation to each other in a more simple, accessible way.
Thanks for your video! Just a couple of observations. I think in the rhythmic trees are missing some brackets and 'mesto' does not signify exactly 'melancholic' in italian, it is an emotional state that has to do more with affliction with resignation than melancholy.
I love your channel, Samuel! One small bone to pick: I don't understand why one would notate the first rhythmic variation (A) with nested tuplets. Only single-tuplets are necessary (for beats 1 and 2, 3:2 and 9:4, resp). The "6" can just be written as a half note. Note: Variation E is not written with any tuplets.
Fantastic as always, thanks for making this so detailed yet accessible. What is the title of the book you hold up during the polyrhythmic analysis section?
Claire Williams No problem. I certainly recommend both the book and Mikhail Malt's excellent article, although both are in French and no translations exist as far as I know.
I can understand how that guy composed music, but i don't understand the purpose of it, what mindset you should have to appreciate it and for how long you have to learn music to understand its structure by just listening. This kind of music isn't very complex in mathematical sense, but its too obscure to my ear.
Any information about where the harmonic structure for the chords in the 3rd intervention come from? Are they related to the harmonic field of the viola or are they generated through some other processes in Patchwork?
Maybe a bit nitpicky, but in the section on nested tuplets, shouldn't the two thirty-second notes before beat four be a thirty-second note quintuplet followed by a dotted thirty-second note quintuplet?
@@samuel_andreyev Too bad. :) CM is a terrific language by Rick Taube. It's also a part of a LISP-based collection of software that includes Bill Schottstaedt's Common Music Notation, SND, and Common LISP Music. Btw, Rick's great pattern stuff from CM is now available as an external library for OM.
You might be interested in Russo-Canadian composer Nikolai Korndorf's String Trio - titled "In Honour of Alfred Schnittke (AGSCH) , Trio for Violin, Viola, and Cello" . I'm sure that A-S-G-C-H is some sort of musical cryptogram that is central to the work. It has some rustic, microtonal, folky, drony, and minimalistic vibes to it. The recording is on RUclips, of course. You make awesome videos! - All The best.
". . . the inability to be perfectly accurate" - I wonder if BF would condone/encourage improvising around the written score during rehearsals, before honing the sections for performance. In which case the trio members would have the tapes/cameras running! Very grateful for this, Samuel!
Hello, It's a monograph published by IRCAM and edited by Peter Szendy. The article I referenced is by Mikhail Malt. Here's a link: livre.fnac.com/a884451/Peter-Szendy-Compositeurs-d-aujourd-hui-brian-ferneyhough
Weston Gilbert Thank you. It's an excerpt from my 22-minute piece Strasbourg Quartet. It's being recorded for a new portrait CD on Kairos Records, due out on October 1st.
Thanks for your analysis. Please, could you write down the name of the book and the article where you got the information about the rhythmic procedures?
Hi, yes of course: The article is by Mikhail Malt. Unfortunately, as far as I know, it is only available in French. Here is the reference: Mikhail Malt (1998) « L’utilisation de la composition Assistée par Ordinateur par Brian Ferneyhough », in Cahiers « Compositeurs d’aujourd’hui », textes réunis par Peter Szendy, Ircam, Paris, 1998, p. 61-106
But when does anyones music sound as unusual as it looks . I've long wanted to put some pages of the Finnissey's music on my wall . Now ,I think this String Quintet deserves that action . hese curlies , dots, numbers and all manner of formalisms ae great non-painted visual works full of information that an only be decoded by specially skilled musicians . Like non-artists see Kline ,Motherwell rothko ,Rheinhardt differently than the artists themselves would .
To me, listening to this string trio is like traversing a snowstorm. It's cold, vaguely irritating, and completely homogeneous in texture. There's beauty there, but only if you quite literally scrutinize each snowflake (or measure of music) under a microscope, as was done with this analysis. It's fascinating, in its own way. But if I step back and just listen to the music, there's nothing that inspires me to contemplate humanity or the world we inhabit.
Hi Samuel, You mention towards the end of the video that those who listen to Ferneyhough's music will be struck by the sensuality and physicality of the music. This is coincidentally something that I have been focusing on immensely recently, and I wanted to ask of your opinion of this supposition: I think that, at the very least, all music can/should be appreciated for it's physicality/sensuality. Obviously this isn't to say that the only way to listen/appreciate music should be for its physicality/sensuality, but I do think that it acts as a crucial foundation for any given piece of music. With this, one could hypothetically listen to and appreciate any given piece of music despite what it is and who it was composed by. This isn't to say that the appreciation of the piece/s that one might listen to will be appreciated for what it ought to be, (appreciating a piece by Mozart should be appreciated for different reasons that of a piece by Ferneyhough), however I think that every piece of music could be appreciated through its physicality and sensuality (and of course, there can be various opinions/definitions that people may pose on what exactly constitutes as 'sensuality' and 'physicality', but lets use the example you gave about Ferneyhough as I believe the same thing.) I would be interested to hear what you would have to say (I would be interested to discover music that you might think that cannot/should not be interpreted in such a way), since it is incredible to have a committed and conscientious lecturer/musicologist/composer on youtube to post interesting and insightful videos :) Thanks!
Hello Corey, I agree with you, although it needs pointing out that some pieces are more immediately seductive and gratifying upon an immediate encounter than others. For example, I find a lot of Carter's music to be rather gray and uniform, although I appreciate it for other reasons. And I wanted to make this case for Ferneyhough in particular, because unfortunately, he has often been portrayed as writing hyper-intellectual music, whereas I genuinely don't believe this to be the most important aspect of his work, at all.
Therefore, I made a special point of mentioning this in reference to Ferneyhough, more as a corrective to an unjustified reputation than anything else.
I don't understand why you would say you can't fit 12 notes in 4 beats? Instead of writing 12:8 you could just have triplets every beat. Considering that the second half of A is half the length of the bar, the awkward dotted half would just turn into a half note. The first two notes of the bar are a quarter of the bar so that's just an eight note plus a quarter in a triplet. Then in the third beat you can still keep this overly complex 9:6 which basically almost the same as writing two eight notes with a gracenote before the second note but sluring it to that note so it will be played a bit earlier... Still nice analysis though
Sounds like communism. LOL. With the perspective of time, this approach strikes me as a musical revolution. The actual future of "Serious" music. The possibilities are not limited at all, so I would expect this to find its way into pop applications as well.
For me, the actual score seems to be more interesting than it's realization. If the three musicians were to play this particular trio perfectly in a rhythmic sense, one would never know it, even following the score. I'm reminded of the two recordings I own of Elliott Carter's Night Fantasies, one played by Charles Rosen, the other by Paul Jacobs, two of the pianists who commissioned the work. They both interpret the last measure of the work rhythmically differently. Perhaps this and Ferneyhough's String Trio are to be performed as improvisations, approximating what's on the page. Then again, the resulting harmony is another discussion.
Wow .. Beefheart to Ferneyhough ... you must have some seriously interesting thoughts about postmodernist genre obfuscation .. it seems to me they (Brian & the Captain) actually have much in common structurally .. with a greater/lesser technical comprehension/application of their own compositional processes. It is easy for me to imagine 'Trout Mask' in particular as a purely serious work for small ensemble & voice (it is tempting to attempt to recompose this as such!), yet I am so much closer to Ferneyhough's 'Time & Motion studies' etc. The irony is that the sound world is not necessarily much different once translated into a '3rd party' instrumentation. Is it of interest to you to discuss the intersection of cross-genre music/s from the perspective of contemporary classical/art music? I hope so .. it would be fascinating to digress into the realm of modernist/post-modernist/pop/traditional aesthetics .. perhaps from a technical standpoint .. but, more interestingly, from a purely aesthetic viewpoint. I would be fascinated to see what, if anything, you have to contribute to the understanding of this confluence of musical genres/idioms & their relative quotients of cerebralism vs visceralism.
John Dornom Regarding the cross influence of popular and art musics: yes. It is a fascinating conjunction. All of the popular songs I've looked at so far are situated on that border: Tom Waits, Captain Beefheart, The Velvet Underground.. It's of great personal interest as I've released a series of quite elaborate collections of quasi pop songs. Thanks for your comments.
Coventry is pronounced "COV-in-tree"" not cuv-in-tree". Thanks for your fascinating lecture. Incredibly articulate...but I don't think Ferneyhough would agree with your comparison to Rembrandt
Interesting enough. It just seems like a heck of a lot of textual density for the sake of generating effects that could be scored far more simply. There is little point weaving together differing strands of material that is basically so undefined with no aural contrasts between main and counter material, you just end up with a grey wash made up of seemingly random sonic events. The nearest I can get to it is by seeing it as an acoustic re-representation of 1960's sound labs. His own writings on his music are similarly absurdly overwritten. As for making it possible for differing performers to interpret the work differently, it introduces a marked bullshit factor. It is hardly fair to describe music as "possibly the most difficult to play" when the scores have built in factors enabling performers to cheat to such an extent. Works like Mereaux's "Bravura" Etude or the "Opus Clavicembalisticum" may be considered far more difficult as there is no "random sounding" escape clause built into them. Still at least somebody has provided a concise explanation of the oeuvre. It's very hard to come by such things and makes one very suspicious of all things "nu-complexity" wise.
Your comment brings up a question I've been asking for a long time: why go to such work to write this music down when all the composer would have to do is instruct the players to improvise in a particular way? Seems like that would save a lot of time and effort. The sonic result would likely be no different and every bit as tedious. The only downside I suppose would be that we wouldn't have these super cool looking scores for dorky guys like Andreyev to analyze.
@@allegroschoolofmusic4424 "The sonic result would likely be no different " in a nutshell....it would be very different if the players were to improvise. As regards small note values, Honegger complained about the notational complexity of Beethoven's late music (especially op.111, 2nd movement) -with the passing of time, doesn't read so well.
@@MorganHayes_Composer.Pianist Well that would depend on whether it was pure improvisation or structured. Lutoslawski frequently call upon performers to improvise within given perameters for example. Stockhausen went through a whole phase of pure and structured improvisation works in the late 60's and early 70's and got pretty much the same seemingly random effects he got through composing serially.
@@egapnala65 the improvised pieces by Stockhausen (I’ve taken part in ‘Japan’ and I used to listen endlessly to ‘Aus den Sieben Tagen) don’t sound anything like the notated pieces. They’re clearly the work of the same composer but the surface is very different to my ears atleast.
@@MorganHayes_Composer.Pianist I was thinking more in terms of the controlled improvisation as in "Stimmung" where there are certain parameters set but everything else is up to the performers. Also in parts of "Trans" there are aleatoric (though notated) passages which are there to produce specific effects at given times.
There were times when neurotics of both sexes were cured of the sort, now such people would be proclaimed heroes. I prefer the former attitude, honestly... Sick composers should be cured, not praised. Thanks for the analysis, though. Peace, love, sane adequate art everyone!
Rembrandt? (and in the comments we hear him compared to Wordsworth).Never in the history of criticism has somebody so great been been compared to somebody of such scanty and paltry interest to such little effect.
I'd say that most of these modern pieces are very interesting as how they were made and what's their background. But when you listen to them they sound like shit. It's almost like the pieces aren't meant to be heard, but just thought and analyzed.
A new Andreyev analysis means it's gonna be an ok day.
Samuel Andreyev seems like a serious musician. I really appreciate his explanation & guidance in looking at Ferneyhough's trio. He really digs deep. Helpful, and WELL done!
Bravo! It is rare to find composition information of this caliber in the format of a video talk. It is appreciated.
Thank you for distilling a complex aesthetic for us lay people; it is very much appreciated. I was struck by your thoughts ~4:20ff on the inability to be perfectly accurate when playing Ferneyhough, and the resultant need on the part of a performer to synthesize or emphasize different aspects. The generation of "new perceptive spaces" reminds me of Wordsworth's comments that a poet must "create the taste by which he shall be appreciated."
Thanks for taking the time to put this together. The quality and density of the analysis deserves much more exposure in this medium. Hopefully the channel grows!
"it's a complexity that comes from the mutual interaction & interference of different strands... you might have 3 or 4 different materials going on in a piece, they're evolving at different speeds & in different directions at the same time, and so while any one of these individual lines might be fairly straightforward, what happens is he crashes them into each other" -- this could easily describe Frownland
Perceptive comment. They have much in common, I think!
..it also describes chaos.
Thank you so much for this! Wonderful to hear such a lucid description of his compositional approach. Although it's incredible to hear him talking about his own work, it's often difficult to know exactly what he's referring to in terms of his processes, especially when it comes to how they're implemented and developed in open music. His use of language in his writing and in conversation is just as fascinating and complex as his music, but often hard to grasp. Your channel and videos are inspiring and I deeply appreciate what you're doing. Thanks again.
You're welcome, I'm glad to hear you enjoyed the video. Unfortunately, it only barely scratches the surface. It's very difficult to do justice both to his overall aesthetic (if one can speak in such general terms), and the details of a particular composition. While I enjoy Brian Ferneyhough's writings and have read them multiple times, there is often a strange vacuum between the concepts he describes, and their relationship to the surface / perception. Not a problem in and of itself, except that he tends to present his technical concepts as though they had some sort of straightforward perceptual currency in and of themselves (perhaps they do for him?). Frustratingly, few writers have addressed the multiple, and fruitful contradictions his music contains. So there's still lots of work to be done!
"perhaps they do for him?"
One would certainly hope so. Otherwise, "he be trippin"! (Or else writing poetry.)
I love his music and I think he knows what he's saying; but like his music, he meets the audience less than halfway.
i'm glad you're analyzing Ferneyhough's music, i've never understood it very well
this is just a waste of energy
@@Tizohip What is? Commenting on a youtube video?
I think he means analyzing this music.@@bassoonistfromhell
There's lots of music I don't understand...but enjoy it nonetheless (more often than not)!
Absolutely spectacular analysis as always; it really changes my opinion of Ferneyhough's music from being a straitjacket to performers, forcing them into certain rhythmic and tonal atmospheres that cannot differ between performances, to a music whose incredible variety and humor coalesce in the formal impossibility of an accurate concert. On a completely separate note, you mentioned that you were writing a cantata for voice and ensemble and had recently completed Iridescent Notations (to which I hope to hear a recording of or, if the stars aline, a performance in concert). Whenever I consider writing a vocal work with any sort of modernistic aesthetic, I always think of Elliott Carter and sometimes feel uncomfortable writing in a style that relates to Carter, as I believe his settings of the voice to be the perfect combination of formal and emotional structures, and my desire to reflect Carter's "perfected" language makes it difficult to produce a piece that I think is of a worthy standard as I use a borrowed artifact. Therefore, do you ever feel like you are constrained in writing in a particular genre as there is a sort of "shadow" that hovers over it by a composer whose influence on your own thinking makes it difficult not to imitate?
Noah Mayer Spore Great question Noah. Iridescent Notation is not quite complete, I still have two sections to finish (out of 7). The piecf will be premiered in Kiev in the spring. I don't feel particularly constrained by previous masterworks in a given genre. On the contrary, they can stand as a challenge -- to see if I can do something as good or better, on my own terms. Not a lot of 20th c. composers were able to develop a personal and convincing approach to the voice. One of the best is Betsy Jolas -- whom I will be discussing shortly on this channel.
Nice introduction to OpenMusic and Ferneyhough, always wandered how the heck he comes up with all that rhythms. A great inspiration for my composing process!
Great as always! you should do more about patchwork!
A good Christmas present. I have admired Ferneyhough for some time. Sometimes, with such difficult music I sit at some distance from the loudspeakers and just let the sounds speak for themselves like crazy, funny creatures beating and scrambling at my window pane but then one needs to return to analysis. I can imagine how the bombed city affected him but like other composers, he is reflecting on a shattered world.
I feel like a "Johnny-come-lately" ... wish I'd heard of him earlier in life. Never heard of him, 'till this WEEK. This composer's a GEM.
Excellent, thats my sunday morning sorted - thank you
Great video. I'm much more open to this music because of your analysis videos. Thanks!
I have been waiting to find a channel just like yours. Thank you.
Thanks again for a great analysis. I might even grow to like Ferneyhough one day... I would love to hear your analysis of women composers too, especially of Gubaidulina, Chaya Czernovin and Saariaho
Balint Karosi Wait for my next video..
Thanks for this. I appreciate your clarity. Really helpful.
Thank you very much for you work! Great topics, exellent explanations and presentation!
You are most welcome.
RUclips needs more people like you. And it also needs a Galina Ustvolskaya explanation video.:-)
I love this guy and his music too . Ferneyhough ,Finnissy and the others ! Unbelievable music !
Hey Samuel - wonderful video! You mentioned a book during your analysis and I missed the name of it and sifted through the comments to see if anyone else had asked. I would love to get my hands on a copy.
Thanks so much for this video. Ferneyhough's music is so wonderfully brilliant and not explored enough, in my opinion, in the theory universe.
Excellent clear and concise explanation of the construction of some very esoteric music and how to approach it. Nice explanation of OpenMusic too, been trying to use graphs and grids to analyse a friend's art to generate compositional form, and each time I return to it I end up revising something about my method (which gets in the way of the actual act of writing music) - this program seems like it could be a perfect time-saver on that front.
Saw Ferneyhough in November at HCMF, where he did a talk along with James Dillon, and then later had a performance with Ensemble Modern (which made novel but beautiful use of steel drums). Have definitely had worse evenings than that one.
Thanks for this comment. OpenMusic is a great resource, but not terribly intuitive to use -- you need to wade through the two volumes of IRCAM's OM books to get the most out of it. However, if you're willing to put the time in, and it suits what you're trying to do, it can open up a lot of possibilities.
Thank you so much
Such a wonderful youtube and your analysis...
hello .im taking advantage of this nice video on ferneyhough to ask you if its possible for you in the futur to do a video on nested rythms? thx
Wow ! The nested tuplet rhythms kills me ! What a challenge now I'm falling into Ferneyhough's world . My music will be changing in ways I might not ever have come up with ! I knew there had to be some type of systemization behind all that notation and performance direction on page . Idea of intervention disrupting the music : Ifine idea . Now I'm gonna try this ! I can't believe Ferneyhough has been in the U.S. all this time . it's taken me so long to get to his music . I loved the way it looks on the page when I first saw it 25 years ago but didn't know what I was listening to . Now because of Architecture , film theory and some ideas in physics ( I know very little technically ) I get and care very much about what he explores and gives us !
I'm a frustrated composer. It takes me too long. I needed to learn patience, along with mental efficiency. Man, I appreciate good/great composers. Still, I participate in music, and I'm creative...in flashes.
We could get the same effect that Ferneyhough accomplishes by playing-say- Bartok on your PC, Shostakovitch on your HiFi, Stravinsky on your radio and Ligeti on an MP3 player...simultaneously.
WORTH A TRY(!!) Still, Ferneyhough's efforts by his own intent bear fruit !
Thanks! Amazing.
Thank you! I allways avoided Ferneyhough because I cant pronounce his last name.
I can't either! No one can!
fur-knee-huff
pretty simple but weird spelling i guess
If memory serves, Michael Finnissy, who knows BF, pronounces it "Ferney-O."
As I understand it (and I've met the man!) it's Ferneehow (as in blow).
Hello! I am a composer from Japan. Your analysis and your thought on Contemporary music is amazing! I was wondering if I could add Chinese subtitles to your videos and repost them on a Chinese content-sharing website Bilibili? Please let me know if you would be comfortable with this. Thank you!
Very informative and analytical. I would very much like to hear your analysis of works by other "complexity" composers, namely Chris Dench or James Dillon...
You're discussion of this trio is much more interesting than the piece itself.
Can you do a video on Ben Johnson's quartets?
Hello Matthew, thank you for your suggestion. I only know those pieces superficially but I intend to get to know them better. Thank you for the reminder. My next video, coming in a few days, will be an extended interview with 92 year old French composer Betsy Jolas on her life, work and esthetics.
Thanks - just a wonderful presentation to enjoy. So inspiring.
This is a wonderfully illuminating and demystifying video! As for the paucity of 20th century string trios, I particularly enjoy Jean Cras' String Trio. It has kind of a rustic feel. Also you should check out Akira Nishimura's String quartet no 2 (the score is on youtube) -- maybe I'm over reaching but I can hear Bartok, Penderecki, and Radulescu in it.
so, in the end, ferneyhough does very simple things, and gives all the real work to a) the computer, b) the performer, c) the listener. it would be far better if he just wrote all this by himself during several weeks, rather than just arranging the complex results of simple thoughts. this basic rhythmic permutations are interesting, but it would be great to actually hear them and their relation to each other in a more simple, accessible way.
I think that's a reasonable critique.
Yeah, we should all throw away our mobile phones and use quills to write letters sent by pigeon post.
@@Forestier1 i don't think i said that...
Wow! Thanks!
Bravo!
This encourages me to attack this piece this year, thank you so much !!!
Thanks for your video! Just a couple of observations. I think in the rhythmic trees are missing some brackets and 'mesto' does not signify exactly 'melancholic' in italian, it is an emotional state that has to do more with affliction with resignation than melancholy.
Stefano Pierini Thanks for the note -- good to know about 'mesto'.
I love your channel, Samuel!
One small bone to pick:
I don't understand why one would notate the first rhythmic variation (A) with nested tuplets. Only single-tuplets are necessary (for beats 1 and 2, 3:2 and 9:4, resp). The "6" can just be written as a half note. Note: Variation E is not written with any tuplets.
Fantastic as always, thanks for making this so detailed yet accessible. What is the title of the book you hold up during the polyrhythmic analysis section?
Claire Williams 'Compositeurs d'aujourd'hui : Brian Ferneyhough'. Published by IRCAM. The article I mentioned is by Mikhail Malt.
Samuel Andreyev Thank you...
Claire Williams No problem. I certainly recommend both the book and Mikhail Malt's excellent article, although both are in French and no translations exist as far as I know.
I can understand how that guy composed music, but i don't understand the purpose of it, what mindset you should have to appreciate it and for how long you have to learn music to understand its structure by just listening.
This kind of music isn't very complex in mathematical sense, but its too obscure to my ear.
Any information about where the harmonic structure for the chords in the 3rd intervention come from? Are they related to the harmonic field of the viola or are they generated through some other processes in Patchwork?
Maybe a bit nitpicky, but in the section on nested tuplets, shouldn't the two thirty-second notes before beat four be a thirty-second note quintuplet followed by a dotted thirty-second note quintuplet?
Calum Jensen Indeed. My mistake. Thanks for noticing :)
Great video. Just wanted to ask, if you know how were the rests determined?
Tesa He With negative numbers. -1, -2 etc.
Any logic behind what is negative and positive? A rule of sorts?
I really enjoy your channel, Samuel. Have you checked out Common Music, written in LISP?
No, I'm afraid not. LISP gave me hives when I was at IRCAM ;)
Thank you for the reply. Interesting as Open Music seems to have a big LISP element in its basic coding\encoding.
@@samuel_andreyev Too bad. :) CM is a terrific language by Rick Taube. It's also a part of a LISP-based collection of software that includes Bill Schottstaedt's Common Music Notation, SND, and Common LISP Music. Btw, Rick's great pattern stuff from CM is now available as an external library for OM.
You might be interested in Russo-Canadian composer Nikolai Korndorf's String Trio - titled "In Honour of Alfred Schnittke (AGSCH) , Trio for Violin, Viola, and Cello" . I'm sure that A-S-G-C-H is some sort of musical cryptogram that is central to the work.
It has some rustic, microtonal, folky, drony, and minimalistic vibes to it. The recording is on RUclips, of course. You make awesome videos! - All The best.
". . . the inability to be perfectly accurate" - I wonder if BF would condone/encourage improvising around the written score during rehearsals, before honing the sections for performance. In which case the trio members would have the tapes/cameras running!
Very grateful for this, Samuel!
Greeeeeat!!
Thanks for this!
Do you have any plans to do Arvo Pärt or Rachmaninoff analysis?
This is great, Thank you! Can anyone point me to the book Mr Andreyev refers to 29.30 ish?
Hello, It's a monograph published by IRCAM and edited by Peter Szendy. The article I referenced is by Mikhail Malt. Here's a link: livre.fnac.com/a884451/Peter-Szendy-Compositeurs-d-aujourd-hui-brian-ferneyhough
Great, thanks!
Wonderful video!!!! Just out of curiosity, what’s the outro music?
Weston Gilbert Thank you. It's an excerpt from my 22-minute piece Strasbourg Quartet. It's being recorded for a new portrait CD on Kairos Records, due out on October 1st.
Samuel Andreyev Awesome!! I like it a lot, so I’ll make sure to check out the recording when it’s released!!
How can anyone feel these complex rhythms and play them on an instrument, let alone in an ensemble? I can't get my head around that...
It's 3am and I don't know if I just watched a music lecture or a maths lecture
I want to ask Ferneyhough why, but he'll probably respond with "why not?" and that's valid.
Inventions--Cool.
Thanks for your analysis. Please, could you write down the name of the book and the article where you got the information about the rhythmic procedures?
Hi, yes of course: The article is by Mikhail Malt. Unfortunately, as far as I know, it is only available in French. Here is the reference:
Mikhail Malt (1998) « L’utilisation de la composition Assistée par Ordinateur par Brian Ferneyhough », in Cahiers « Compositeurs d’aujourd’hui », textes réunis par Peter Szendy, Ircam, Paris, 1998, p. 61-106
Thank you, very much!
It sounds like everything was speeded up like a tape recording. Wonder what it sounds like slowed down?
But when does anyones music sound as unusual as it looks . I've long wanted to put some pages of the Finnissey's music on my wall . Now ,I think this String Quintet deserves that action . hese curlies , dots, numbers and all manner of formalisms ae great non-painted visual works full of information that an only be decoded by specially skilled musicians . Like non-artists see Kline ,Motherwell rothko ,Rheinhardt differently than the artists themselves would .
To me, listening to this string trio is like traversing a snowstorm. It's cold, vaguely irritating, and completely homogeneous in texture. There's beauty there, but only if you quite literally scrutinize each snowflake (or measure of music) under a microscope, as was done with this analysis. It's fascinating, in its own way. But if I step back and just listen to the music, there's nothing that inspires me to contemplate humanity or the world we inhabit.
It would be good to cite the articles from which you drew upon, for the research that went into making this video.
Ross Feller I mainly drew upon the IRCAM monograph, which I acknowledge (and show) in the video.
i think its pronounced FerneyHUFF. but i could be wrong. my friend is a Ferneyhough and he pronounces it HUFF!
drew bridge I've heard a variety of pronounciations, the one I've adopted seems to be the most common although of course it may still be wrong.
Recent works sound like neoclassical works. why is that?
New wine in old bottles.
Hi Samuel,
You mention towards the end of the video that those who listen to Ferneyhough's music will be struck by the sensuality and physicality of the music. This is coincidentally something that I have been focusing on immensely recently, and I wanted to ask of your opinion of this supposition:
I think that, at the very least, all music can/should be appreciated for it's physicality/sensuality. Obviously this isn't to say that the only way to listen/appreciate music should be for its physicality/sensuality, but I do think that it acts as a crucial foundation for any given piece of music. With this, one could hypothetically listen to and appreciate any given piece of music despite what it is and who it was composed by. This isn't to say that the appreciation of the piece/s that one might listen to will be appreciated for what it ought to be, (appreciating a piece by Mozart should be appreciated for different reasons that of a piece by Ferneyhough), however I think that every piece of music could be appreciated through its physicality and sensuality (and of course, there can be various opinions/definitions that people may pose on what exactly constitutes as 'sensuality' and 'physicality', but lets use the example you gave about Ferneyhough as I believe the same thing.)
I would be interested to hear what you would have to say (I would be interested to discover music that you might think that cannot/should not be interpreted in such a way), since it is incredible to have a committed and conscientious lecturer/musicologist/composer on youtube to post interesting and insightful videos :) Thanks!
Hello Corey, I agree with you, although it needs pointing out that some pieces are more immediately seductive and gratifying upon an immediate encounter than others. For example, I find a lot of Carter's music to be rather gray and uniform, although I appreciate it for other reasons. And I wanted to make this case for Ferneyhough in particular, because unfortunately, he has often been portrayed as writing hyper-intellectual music, whereas I genuinely don't believe this to be the most important aspect of his work, at all.
Therefore, I made a special point of mentioning this in reference to Ferneyhough, more as a corrective to an unjustified reputation than anything else.
I completely agree, thanks a lot for the über quick reply!
My pleasure, thanks for posting such an interesting question. Have a great Sunday!
do xenakis
Those unbalanced brackets makes me sad.
I don't understand why you would say you can't fit 12 notes in 4 beats? Instead of writing 12:8 you could just have triplets every beat. Considering that the second half of A is half the length of the bar, the awkward dotted half would just turn into a half note. The first two notes of the bar are a quarter of the bar so that's just an eight note plus a quarter in a triplet. Then in the third beat you can still keep this overly complex 9:6 which basically almost the same as writing two eight notes with a gracenote before the second note but sluring it to that note so it will be played a bit earlier... Still nice analysis though
Sounds like communism. LOL. With the perspective of time, this approach strikes me as a musical revolution. The actual future of "Serious" music. The possibilities are not limited at all, so I would expect this to find its way into pop applications as well.
For me, the actual score seems to be more interesting than it's realization. If the three musicians were to play this particular trio perfectly in a rhythmic sense, one would never know it, even following the score. I'm reminded of the two recordings I own of Elliott Carter's Night Fantasies, one played by Charles Rosen, the other by Paul Jacobs, two of the pianists who commissioned the work. They both interpret the last measure of the work rhythmically differently. Perhaps this and Ferneyhough's String Trio are to be performed as improvisations, approximating what's on the page. Then again, the resulting harmony is another discussion.
Wow .. Beefheart to Ferneyhough ... you must have some seriously interesting thoughts about postmodernist genre obfuscation .. it seems to me they (Brian & the Captain) actually have much in common structurally .. with a greater/lesser technical comprehension/application of their own compositional processes. It is easy for me to imagine 'Trout Mask' in particular as a purely serious work for small ensemble & voice (it is tempting to attempt to recompose this as such!), yet I am so much closer to Ferneyhough's 'Time & Motion studies' etc. The irony is that the sound world is not necessarily much different once translated into a '3rd party' instrumentation. Is it of interest to you to discuss the intersection of cross-genre music/s from the perspective of contemporary classical/art music? I hope so .. it would be fascinating to digress into the realm of modernist/post-modernist/pop/traditional aesthetics .. perhaps from a technical standpoint .. but, more interestingly, from a purely aesthetic viewpoint. I would be fascinated to see what, if anything, you have to contribute to the understanding of this confluence of musical genres/idioms & their relative quotients of cerebralism vs visceralism.
John Dornom Regarding the cross influence of popular and art musics: yes. It is a fascinating conjunction. All of the popular songs I've looked at so far are situated on that border: Tom Waits, Captain Beefheart, The Velvet Underground.. It's of great personal interest as I've released a series of quite elaborate collections of quasi pop songs. Thanks for your comments.
It all says so little to so few - sad really. An interesting film though.
Shouldn't the two demi-semi-quavers (32nd notes) in example E be quintuplets or is that just too short a note value for it to matter?
James No that's right, another viewer noticed the mistake as well (see below).
Coventry is pronounced "COV-in-tree"" not cuv-in-tree". Thanks for your fascinating lecture. Incredibly articulate...but I don't think Ferneyhough would agree with your comparison to Rembrandt
No... I just can't, I really tried, but noooooo.....
Interesting enough. It just seems like a heck of a lot of textual density for the sake of generating effects that could be scored far more simply. There is little point weaving together differing strands of material that is basically so undefined with no aural contrasts between main and counter material, you just end up with a grey wash made up of seemingly random sonic events. The nearest I can get to it is by seeing it as an acoustic re-representation of 1960's sound labs. His own writings on his music are similarly absurdly overwritten. As for making it possible for differing performers to interpret the work differently, it introduces a marked bullshit factor. It is hardly fair to describe music as "possibly the most difficult to play" when the scores have built in factors enabling performers to cheat to such an extent. Works like Mereaux's "Bravura" Etude or the "Opus Clavicembalisticum" may be considered far more difficult as there is no "random sounding" escape clause built into them. Still at least somebody has provided a concise explanation of the oeuvre. It's very hard to come by such things and makes one very suspicious of all things "nu-complexity" wise.
Your comment brings up a question I've been asking for a long time: why go to such work to write this music down when all the composer would have to do is instruct the players to improvise in a particular way? Seems like that would save a lot of time and effort. The sonic result would likely be no different and every bit as tedious. The only downside I suppose would be that we wouldn't have these super cool looking scores for dorky guys like Andreyev to analyze.
@@allegroschoolofmusic4424 "The sonic result would likely be no different " in a nutshell....it would be very different if the players were to improvise. As regards small note values, Honegger complained about the notational complexity of Beethoven's late music (especially op.111, 2nd movement) -with the passing of time, doesn't read so well.
@@MorganHayes_Composer.Pianist Well that would depend on whether it was pure improvisation or structured. Lutoslawski frequently call upon performers to improvise within given perameters for example. Stockhausen went through a whole phase of pure and structured improvisation works in the late 60's and early 70's and got pretty much the same seemingly random effects he got through composing serially.
@@egapnala65 the improvised pieces by Stockhausen (I’ve taken part in ‘Japan’ and I used to listen endlessly to ‘Aus den Sieben Tagen) don’t sound anything like the notated pieces. They’re clearly the work of the same composer but the surface is very different to my ears atleast.
@@MorganHayes_Composer.Pianist I was thinking more in terms of the controlled improvisation as in "Stimmung" where there are certain parameters set but everything else is up to the performers. Also in parts of "Trans" there are aleatoric (though notated) passages which are there to produce specific effects at given times.
There were times when neurotics of both sexes were cured of the sort, now such people would be proclaimed heroes. I prefer the former attitude, honestly... Sick composers should be cured, not praised. Thanks for the analysis, though. Peace, love, sane adequate art everyone!
Rembrandt? (and in the comments we hear him compared to Wordsworth).Never in the history of criticism has somebody so great been been compared to somebody of such scanty and paltry interest to such little effect.
Thousands of words about thousands of notes, on and on and on. Does anyone listen to this music? Does anyone care? Nope.
You are so right!
I do! Love his music, I listen often. One of my favorite composers from the 20th/21st century
And you should care too, there’s a lot to learn if you listen to his music
I fell asleep on 3rd minute :_)
I wish I could have fallen asleep
Short analysis: pretentious noise. Ferneyhough is a phoney.
And who is Roderick Dewar?
I don't buy this shit. Sorry. I call this imposture.
It's called healthy posture
I'd say that most of these modern pieces are very interesting as how they were made and what's their background. But when you listen to them they sound like shit. It's almost like the pieces aren't meant to be heard, but just thought and analyzed.
I call it fraud, but apparently it's possible to have a lucrative career at it.
Bingo.@@TheMikkis100