I was a college professor for over two decades, and I sadly watched as the corporatization of education (along with the crippling effects of standardized testing) destroyed everything the college stood for. The focus on "jobs training" is not what education ever was about, nor should it be. Ideally, education is meant to help you be a better thinker so that no matter which job you end up with, you can succeed. By the time I left education, the administration's only focus was to keep bodies coming in the door so that bills could be paid. Faculty were no longer colleagues; increasingly they were nothing more than lowly employees implementing the misguided principles that were dictated to them by career administrators who had rarely if ever set foot in a classroom. I'm glad that part of my life is behind me, but it's depressing to see how rapidly education in this country has devolved.
I am grateful to have been able to attend college, learn to view things objectively, critically, and from various perspectives. The fascist anti Education, whitewashing of history, and burdensome debt infiltration of higher education now is a shame.
@@davesmith4110 That doesn’t make sense. DeSantist is the fascist who is banning African American studies, history, etc. It’s the fascist who want to ban books and deny education to people. That’s the fascist ideology who want to destroy public education.
@@RendaJane You were complaining about "fascist anti Education" and I think he read it as "anti-fascist education." As though you were a right-winger complaining about Antifa taking over the education system. Which I don't think is the case.
As an engineer, I'll be the first to say I needed college to do what I do. My experience was in STEM education pretty exclusively. Others can speak to other experiences, but engineering and other STEM fields need a degree.
It helps, but as a MEP engineer 95% of what I do I learned at the job. Would of been better just to take two semesters of HVAC engineering. I Never had to use differential equation or advanced material science at my job.
Yeah, I'm a Civil Engineer. I can acknowledge that I needed to go. It would take entirely too long to teach me what I need to know "on the job". I also wouldn't be able to come up with solutions outside of my specialty.
This is exactly it. There are certain fields that require special training and the university serves that purpose. The problem is that they've convinced people that some less useful fields also require the same level of education, or that the field should exist at all. At any university, the cost between becoming and electrical engineer and a women's studies major is comparable. Guess which one is going to be better off.
I taught college for many years. I met many students who didn't want to be there but were pressured by family and high school advisers. The whole idea is to get upward mobility rather than joining the working class, doing an honest day's work, and fighting for unionization and collective bargaining. When i got out of high school, I couldn't afford college, so I worked in factories, and did a hitch in the Navy. When I finally got to college I could appreciate it and benefit from it rather than feeling I had to go there. We should have a system of apprentice training, as in Germany. Skilled labor should get more respect. We don't need more snobby yuppies.
Totally agree. Some companies do have training and apprentice programs, but it should be more. I have a degree in teaching and in my school's program we had to do two, six-month internships at real schools. (I taught at the local public high school in Nebraska, and then at a private school in Wisconsin. (I did have to go to summer school for 2 years to be able to finish all my required classes in 4 years). Believe it or not, the public school students were much better behaved, although we were teaching them a class about life skills (balance a checkbook, make a budget, make life / death decisions) which even the dumbest students paid attention. I also had a great supervising teacher teacher. A lot really depends on the quality of the teacher I found. My brother got a degree in Education also but different college and no internship. He quit after his first week at school.
Apprenticeships are still very common in Europe but not in the US. There are jobs that require secondary education. Some public school systems have excellent vocation programs. Often times those programs are built and funded by local companies who need those types of workers. Not all college grads are snobby yuppies. Labeling people will be the end of civilized society. My dad was an officer in the USN from 1942-1965. Retired, got his MBA while working as a business manager for the state we lived in and retired at 58yo due to health issues. He passed away when I was 21yo. He encouraged all his kids to go to college. I'm the youngest of the group and he died 2 weeks after I graduated.
Nixon & the big corporations took the jobs to China.. Then they destroyed the unions except for the police unions. There are few factory jobs in America.
I agree that we should have more kinds of education, apprentice ships, specialized schools, trade schools, and that we should start his at a high school level. However, there is another problem I see which is is that people without college degrees are unable to discern facts from bullshit. Look at anyone who believes preposterous fake news stories, pseudoscience, or and the odds are they never went to college. It's true that degrees are basically pieces of paper and that any rich asshole who puts in the time can get one; however, most good colleges require students to do real research and use real facts to deliver clear findings and communication about real things. Fewer and fewer people care about facts, and most of those people did not go to college.
I can appreciate your post. Graduated in 92 and I had no idea what I wanted to do, so I was talking with the Marines. Family told me that I was too smart to NOT go to college and made me feel like I would be a failure if I didn't go...lasted a year. Job hoped thru 9/11 and joined. Excelled in the Army. Suffered some injuries and ended up being "awarded early retirement". Went to college to become a teacher to combat the system from the inside and I am not sure it's even possible at this point.
When I was looking at university in 2003, my mom politely suggested I look at trades. I thought she was thinking I wasn't very smart and I would flunk out. I thought long and hard, then made a decision to become a machinist. Fast forward 20 years and I completed an apprenticeship, got married, bought a house, paid off my student loan, started a family, paid off multiple car loans and enjoy a comfortable life. I know I made a good decision. Thanks mom.
@@jamess3680 what an oddly defensive thing to say. Its ok if you go to college. Its ok if you don't. But you aren't making $50 an HR in most jobs, but as a machinist....maybe
My thoughts exactly. In fact I checked the comments to see if anyone had noticed that. Yeah, hurray for AI when it's targeting the jobs of you college educated idiots; not so much when my livelihood is threatened. Hypocritical maybe?
Bill suddenly getting hot under the collar when faced with the prospect of an AI taking over his job was funnier than any joke he made the whole episode. Like many practical-minded Americans, Bill underestimates the value of a truly liberal education -- an education that is, in a way, an end in itself, regardless of whether it helps you get a job. People of Bill's narrowly pragmatic mindset are the ones who want to cut all funding to the arts, who can't understand the value of higher culture, are blind to the beauty of nature, and, as Oscar Wilde said, know the price of everything and the value of nothing. Reading a Dostoyevsky novel, hearing a Mendelssohn symphony live, grappling with the great thinkers, learning the intricacies of a science, enjoying the sublimity of a Yeats poem -- these are things which have no practical value and will almost never help anyone land a real-life job . . . and yet these things are truly priceless, things that enrich and deepen our minds, make us better and more sympathetic human beings, and bring a higher joy to our lives. These are things that an unthinking and purely imitative AI (as Bill at least has the insight to perceive as it relates to himself) simply cannot replace.
@@panopsis7317"know the price but not the value" is such bull.... STEM is the only field that requires higher education... Hard sciences... Liberal arts for the most part.. Do not
A good way to lower the cost of a college degree is to take your lower division (first two years) classes at a community college which is nearly free and then transfer to a public university in your own state (lower resident tuition). I did that back in the day and along with a little part time work and some help from the G.I. Bill graduated debt free. My route was Solano Community College in Fairfield, CA then a transfer to U.C. Davis (College of Engineering).
I did the same in Memphis, TN & graduated from U of Memphis with no debt with a BS degree, then went on to get my Masters also no debt. I'm glad I did it that way. There are 5 of us & we all graduated from college. Some didn't use it, but don't regret getting a degree. I do wish they taught more shop classes & life skills in high school, so people have a choice. Also, the unions need to come back so people have some rights against the corporations.
I agree its a good idea, especially if you the student is still trying to figure out what they want to study. They have to be focused to leave in two years then transfer , or they will be there four years before they know it , then transfer.
True, but even better would be to just do away with the Gen Ed parts of college completely. Have you seen those class schedules: Intro to World History 101. College Algebra. Freshman Composition. Why are people even taking these classes? You were supposed to pass those in high school! * Today, colleges offer remedial English and Basic math classes: what the heck is a person doing in College without having passed Algebra 1 or Composition? What a joke!
@@sidwhiting665 same reason Cornel has the first year students do a swimming test, its a bigone era exam that pushes them to succeed. Its not the classes they pass or take, its the commitment to push yourself beyond what you think you are capable of. Its kind of like navy seals that either pass or fail. And the ones the pass, let me tell you go on to do some amazing things in their life, since they learn nothing is impossible, if you set your mind to it.
One of the most valuable things about college to me was getting out of my home town bubble and meeting people from all over the country (and world), being introduced to new ideas, music, etc. It was eye opening and perspective broadening.
That is very nice. However I am sure you can see how the rest of us should not have to subsidize someone like you going to college for that wonderful experience. You get into debt for it, you get out it all by yourself.
@@Beatit19 Using me is a bad example since I did pay my own way, lol. However, I personally have no problem with some of my taxes paying for a basic higher education for others since I feel it benefits us all ultimately. Nor would I have an issue funding trade schools.
I had a college instructor said to us when he worked in a HS in Connecticut they took out wood, metal, and auto shop. He asks the school board. "So, is everyone supposed to be a doctor or lawyer now?
When I was a young lass out of high school (eons ago), employers wanted to see college on a resume -- regardless of the major -- it proved a prospective employee could commit and finish something they started. But, then again, once one was hired, you stayed with that employer 20-25+ years until retirement. There was no jumping around from job to job every two years. Therefore, college educations were encouraged, esp. by post-WWII parents.
If you don't jump from job to job every two years you're not truly advancing your career, no company can adequately provide raises that help you grow as much as new avenues.
Gen X here. I on the other hand worked for 4 company's that either went out of business or moved to another state or country. "Jumping around" Is not usually a choice. Company's stopped offering incentives/benefits such as affordable medical, paid time off, pension, sick days etc. Ah, the good ol' days of the American work force. Republicans have spent decades letting corporations off the hook with irresponsible business practice,corporate welfare, deregulation and excessive tax incentives. They sold out the future of the working middlr class to insure high profits and as little accountability as possible.
The thing with, and it comes up here again and again.....union workers GET PAID for their education hours, not pay for and party just as much. Too bad only about 10% of the workforce(according to another actual journalism program) is a member of an actual labor union. College does give you skills and a base of knowledge, reading the anthro books is way better than tuning in to Shatner for an hour a week, please, but there's so many people that think they are actually going to be flying private next to Shatner on a 10 seater, really? no prolly never Elmer, like the other 98% of all of us! I hear ya Bill. After a couple few generations of stress about job security and not much reward along with stagnant wages and shit sausages it's no wonder people don't even show up to support anyone, let alone the urban elite or the company "man" who the IT department knows when your hands are away from your keyboard long enough to take a leak! By the way Ed Bagley has his finger on the pulse🍁
@@ymerej33 😂yes it was the republicans! I’m sure the noble democrats were fighting for you the entire time too right? Didn’t joe Biden just quash the BNSF union railroad workers strike 3 weeks ago? Are you really going to sit here and lie to me and tell me bill Clinton and Barack Obama did not allow some of the most devastating abuses of the middle class under their “leadership”? I’m not a fan of republicans either, but anybody who can’t acknowledge the things we saw after the 2008 collapse and the DISGUSTING spending bills that Nancy, chuck, and MCCONNEL passed these past few years are a complete abuse of the American working class. Democrats are not your friends either, and they deserve to be called out as well.
It has always been my position that a) college education is not necessary to perform on a job but b) it is not bullshit, a scam, a racket. It is required to educate people of the world they live in. Biology, science, history, democracy etc etc.
It used to be that people learned those things in high school. I remember learning critical thinking in junior high, although with history, democracy, biology, and other sciences. The idea that we need to delay that education for five years, leaving teenagers stupid and 20-somethings broke - seems like a scam to me. Education is wonderful, but it's absolutely terrible for families to feel like they need to go broke just so their children aren't destitute - especially when so many wind up destitute in spite of their education.
@@calmbbaer I’d say about 99% of the people I know that went to college and graduated are not destitute and living pretty good lives. I’m 36 so 12-13 years out of college.
Don't forget Gender Studies, lesbian Studies, Flying Disk Entertainment and Education, European Union Degree, Feminist Studies, Surf science and Technology, Floral Design and the Psychology of fashion!
The people on this panel, including Bill must not realize that you can do almost nothing and get through high school. They pass you to push you through and some learn as little as 10% of what they are taught. The first 2 years of college are the new high school until high school is fixed.
Stop pretending like people learn anything in shop class. In fact.. stop pretending people learn anything in public school at all. They don't hold onto that knowledge in the long term. They're not retaining anything presented to them after 2nd or 3rd grade. If you ask someone who's 18 what they leaned in school (past 3rd grade) they'll say that all they remember is that "the mitochondria is the powerhouse of the cell" from biology class and maybe some flashbacks to watching The Patriot.
Shop class is a waste of time, sorry. The public school system is there to teach various levels of verbal and mathematical literacy, along with basic sciences, from which everything else one needs to learn (including woodworking) can be picked up If a school wants to offer it as an EC, sure, but if they’re looking for things needing cutting, shop class is reasonably near the top of the list
@@Youtoober6947 My school didn't have shop classes because it was too small, but you can't learn carpentry or masonry simply from mathematics. My dad is a carpenter and although I went on to be a teacher and lawyer, I helped him build houses in high school and college. Years later we were volunteer working on Habitat for Humanity house. We had all these office workers with college degrees helping. My dad was putting on the roof and would yell the measurements to them below for cutting the valleys, and they kept cutting it wrong wasting a lot of wood. I finally stopped in the area I was working on and cut the boards. We finished the whole roof in one day and put the project ahead by a week. No, you can't learn woodworking from simple math class.
@@rabbit251 Your co workers not being able to cut wood are not indicative of the entire population. People are taught and learn much more complex things than wood working via books. It will take trial and error and wasting some wood, but it is absolutely not impossible to learn wood working simply by reading + trial and error. My point is, cutting wood isn’t an essential thing that needs to be mandatory in public schools. Learning how to read, math, and the basic sciences are.
@@rabbit251 Also shop class isn’t teaching anyone the nuances required to become a competent carpenter. That’s a profession one requires time and practice in to become good at, like any other. Learning the fundamentals required to learn about everything else is much more important than learning how to cut wood in the event that you may randomly need to build a house one day, in which case shop class wouldn’t have prepared you for that anyway.
College was definitely pushed way too hard when I was in school. We were told repeatedly by teachers that if we didn't go to college, we would struggle. That being said, I don't think college is bullshit. It's just not for everyone, and there certainly are bullshit degrees. I ended up not going to college until my 30s, and I loved it. I got a 2 year degree and then decided to get my BS. Overall, I had a great experience. I learned how to be a problem solver. I learned that i was capable of a lot more than i thought. This whole disdain for education that gets people riled up is scary. It's like that Carlin bit, "they want to keep us just dumb enough to push the buttons and fill out the paperwork and not question anything."
Some fields 100% require a college degree; medicine, engineering, accounting, etc. But others do not; marketing, business administration, etc. And trades should not be undervalued as they are. Plumbers, carpenters, etc. are essential.
No, we need to stop them from selling useless degrees. That is not the vast majority of them. There is nothing wrong with not getting a college degree, and instead getting further educated in a trade school, but we need both. Employers for the most part don't want to pay for the education either way, and most require "education AND experience" for any job with a living wage.
So great to see "Real Time" back with another new season. With regard to this topic, higher education needs to be restructured so that it's affordable to anyone who wants it. Community colleges, for example, are wonderful because you only pay for the classes themselves - not for all the extra fees each semester that make universities unaffordable. At the end of the day, what matters is what you wanna do for a living. If that requires a university degree, then so be it. But in most cases, it does not.
The day that happens is the day the U.S:. Is no longer a functional country. It’s all about money now, not worrying about the next generation..capitalism doesn’t last forever.
It’s not just shop class, it’s agriculture, construction, shop class, auto class. THIS IS WHERE ENGINEERING DEGREES START(as well as biology, environmental science, and other critical majors). Some high schools in the country provide all of the classes I listed above, I have designed them. I have a 4 year college degree, I can’t say I totally regret it, but I’m not going to pretend I couldn’t do my job without having wasted those 5 years in a classroom.
My current position required a masters degree when all one really needs in my position is good interpersonal skills, muscle memory, and a great deal of patience.
I fell in Love with Learning in College. I found out what I liked and what I did not. I studied Shakespeare while going to school in England. I had a FANTASTIC experience which prepared me for my future. I became a Clinical Scientist III. With my Masters . College was exactly what gave me a safe place to Learn How to Really Learn. (critical thinking) It was really a perfect experience. I met my husband there who became a Medical Doctor. I got my beautiful children and my white picket fence. I worked extremely hard and am so grateful for my positive life experience.
@@Obscuredinsight I was on a full ride scholarship. I had four daughters and all four got full ride scholarships. It still cost money for food and extras. I was born in 1960, so I truly believe that it was a different time, and WE BOOMERS were different. No internet, no social media, no one was morbidly obese, we were active. Once again, I PERSONALLY had an incredible education that I Earned. I have a degree that goes anywhere. The more I specialized the more money I was paid There is a huge difference learning something on RUclips, and practicing on a daily basis. I am a Medical Professional. I doubt you are yet.
The problem is how they teach at American Universities. I got a STEM degree and honestly, we all could have graduated in 2 years as opposed to 4 or 5. Most of our classes for the first two years were just reviews of what we already learned in high school, or liberal arts classes that felt more like indoctrination than an actual education. I was required to take a class where all we did was hear how racist America was. One girl from Uganda said no one ever excluded her or treated her badly in the States and the professor literally spoke to her after class as if she did something wrong. A lot of mandatory classes were just "fluff" and not necessary at all.
Yeah sorry I just got through a graduate program and an undergraduate program 4 years ago at a large state school and never took a course on how “racist we are”
@@moniqueengleman873 Nope. Took a first year literature course where we read various mainstream philosophical works and never got to the “america is racist” part that so many ppl meme about these days.
Our society and culture was formed under racism and slavery, developing throughout time to inherently describe and project non-white people as different, if not much worse. Yes, we no longer condone slavery, but these projections are still contained in much of the imagery, metaphors, shared stories, and stereotypes we have about different races (and oftentimes monsters, aliens, animals, and other creatures) today. Since, you were born into this fabric of language and perception that already existed, and we are a product of our environment, this is perhaps why you were called racist.
What you're missing is the fact that there are thousands of us with jobs that require a degree which don't even pay us enough to pay off that degree. I know hundreds of people like me too. Teachers, social workers, etc.
That's why you don't get those degrees unless they're for fun and you can afford them. Make a cost/return analysis before committing. That doesn't mean they're worthless, mind you. For example, I sure ain't ever gonna make a living out of my music degree (nor do I think I should) but its return of investment isn't monetary. I knew that before I got into it and for me its unique brand of RoI is prioritized over money. If your priority is money - choose other career path.
Careful, don't let any of the true believers on this channel know that. They'll crucify you, despite the fact that not a single one of them would even consider going to a doctor or lawyer who didn't graduate from college and go on to get an advanced degree. Also, very few in here seem willing to admit that getting degrees in STEM fields is not the same as getting a degree in Gender Studies. Their only reason for throwing college under the bus currently is that progressive liberals currently control the teaching of the humanities and soft sciences. But the laws of engineering and the hard sciences don't bend for political expediency. Frankly, I expected more careful reasoning from Bari Weiss.
My niece and nephew graduated from an Ivy League school, Communications and Biochemistry respectively. My niece got her Masters and now works for Cisco Systems. My nephew is at a different ivy school getting his Ph. D. all paid for by a German company. (Part of program is that he must conduct their experiments and the company paid for a very modern lab). After he graduates next year pretty sure lots of companies will be trying to recruit him. I myself have a degree in Education and Law, but now I'm retired. My daughter has a Masters in Structural Engineering and reviews big project building plans. My son never went to college due to personal problems. He just got a job repairing houses that have been flooded. He makes $15/hr..
I don't think they're talking about a job in which a college degree actually is useful; they're talking about a college degree being a gate for a job that doesn't really use those skills.
@@ojyochan But how do they know that a college degree isn't useful for that job? If the job requires critical thinking it is better to hire a college graduate because generally they have been taught that skill. Someone who didn't go to college may have figured it out themselves, but statistically the odds are against them. What Bill is trying to say is that colleges no longer even teach skills like critical thinking so the whole time and expense is a waste.
The key is what major you're getting into, because the cost of college really forces you to choose majors that will get you a decent job, such as engineering
I took shop class, home economics, and went to college. They can all be valuable in the right circumstances, but only one of them can also leave aimless teenagers saddled with tens of thousands of debt for most of the rest of their lives.
ok but josh Shapiro went to Georgetown law school and Bari Weiss went to Columbia and bill went to Cornell so isn't that ironic for the three of them to be the ones saying this?
Philadelphia...my home town. Took shop classes, after my high school graduation, I left Philly to Maryland and became an associate architect and construction project manager with no degree. 🎓🤷🏽♂️
@@YouAreStillNotablaze Who knew you can learn the specific skills you need for a job, on the job? Nah I'd rather go 80k in debt to learn a little bit about a lot of things and still require on the job training.
@@YouAreStillNotablaze No...not during that time. Education was different back them...so I put myself in design college for architecture and interior design
@@edwardhurdle5013 And, the end result wasn't.. a degree? You know, so when you apply for job and they decide to their chance and bet their money and safety on you, there's some indication you know what you're doing?
Students who take eduction seriously get an enormous amount out of college. Others do not. Many get some. Show me an institution where everyone is motivated and where all of its goals are met. “It’s all bullshit because I don’t understand what the major is about, and students party.” Deep analysis, Bill.
In the 70's, I took a five year break from college. Upon my return, I was amazed at how watered down it seemed. It seemed like getting an "A" was easier later on than it was when I first started. And, after achieving two degrees specific to a field and with experience, couldn't make enough to live on and eventually couldn't even find an employer,. So I moved on to Yacht Repair and from there, other marine industries; I never really needed an advanced education for much of it.
Yacht repair sounds fun in a weird way. I remember someone long ago who was making like twice the minimum wage just cleaning boats and repairing/servicing the engines. And they were like 19 or something. (2001-2003 ish probably) They also probably had networking opportunities and were able to go on dope af boat party excursions. (One often forgotten aspect of wealthy people who are decent people...is that they actually do share the luxuries of their wealth). Was that a career? No. Was it 15-20 an hour and chillin with rich af and smart people? Yes. There is an old joke. You should always seek out the spaces where you are never the smartest person in the room.
I learned more from my friends/classmates than I did from classes and professors. That's a big part of the college experience. And, it's clearly not just about getting prepared to do a job. Those first jobs out of college are usually way below what graduates are capable of doing. For some it's worth the expense, for others, it's not. Nothing is guaranteed.
I went to college and got a 4.00 GPA. But when I started working many of the things I learned didn’t apply to my job. I probably could have done my job without a college or even a high school education to be honest. Yet my job required a bachelors degree and 3 years of experience or a masters degree and 1 year of experience. I worked an internship during college and out over 100 job applications and 6 interviews only one place hired me. And I am already top performer 3 months in.
Shane, so cool that you are in a great place career-wise and doing so well. Also, not looking to argue, but I was wondering, as a thought experiment, could you have done your current job as the 18 y/o straight out of high school? Was there a difference between 18 y/o Shane and 22 y/o Shane? Assuming that the 22 y/o version of yourself was better qualified, other than college, what could to you have done in that 4 years to prepare you for that career besides your academic experience?
College is not a bad deal at all for useful majors. There is an equation called the Mincer equation, in empirical economics, which captures returns to education, and it is pretty clear higher ed can raise your salary enough to compensate for the costs of the major. Now, it does vary a lot by majors. So no wonder people from the mentioned majors in this segment feel they regret their studies. But we also have to think about the public sector. Maybe sociology majors should be more valued in government jobs, since the demand for them will obviously come mostly from the public sector. But yes, most of those humanities majors are in low demand for the amount of people who choose it. But let's not confuse college education with the humanities. STEM fields are still a very good investment.
Mate the problem is the commercialization and commodification of tertiary education, not education itself. If it was free (like it has been in Australia in the past) none of you would oppose someone learning…. Or would you? This looks like yet another example of the USA confusing itself with it’s own idiosyncrasy.
I’m so glad I worked hard and graduated VCU. Payed for it all myself with loans and a tiny Pell grant. It was totally worth the hard work, my work ethic alone has helped me all my life.
Way to go, Nancy. Undoubtedly your major courses, and liberal arts courses helped your work, and your life. But college is also about learning how to deal with vast amounts of information, often abstract information, sorting through information and organizing it. It's a process by which one implicitly learns a very real skill for today's world. Your work ethic was enhanced by the number of hours you put in, and from what you learned. and how you learned it..
You get out of school what you put into it. Spend four years actually developing an understanding of how things work in a technical field? You're set for life. Spend four years partying? Then you might feel as though you fell for a scam, but no one forced you to major in "General Studies."
Bill Maher is a Cornell grad, no? While his History major might not have contributed to his success as a stand up comedian, I'm sure it has served him well in his career interviewing politicians and contemplating politics! What a disturbing and hypocritical (and completely unfair) hot take on liberal arts, humanities and philosophy degrees that contribute a great deal to civilization and can equally make an immense difference to the lives of working-class/first gen/queer students.
If for nothing else, college is good for learning critical thinking, which doesn’t happen in high school for too many. If those who say college shouldn’t be needed, then high school will need to have real reform.
My high school had several vocational studies programs. Mind u i graduated in the 90s but You could graduate high school with cosmetology license as certified nurses aids auto mechanics electrical hvac and so on. College isn’t for everyone and you shouldn’t b made to feel like you will have no future without it. These programs gave hope to those of us who knew our parents couldn’t send us to college. I became a cna by time I graduated and eventually went to college when I was in my 20s and became a registered nurse.
The root problem is companies requiring applicants have college degrees not because the degree is necessary to do the job, but because the company wants to narrow their applicant pool. This is the reason so many kids go to college. Because they know job descriptions will say MUST HAVE COLLEGE DEGREE.
Well, A.I. is never going to replace the most basic elements of humanity. A few days ago, a radio DJ plugged a song into an AI song rating, and didn't tell the audience initially what the song was. The AI function gave the song only a 57% for vocal ability, but a 97% for "danceability". Then he played the song. It was Thunderstruck by AC/DC.
When I went to college in the 80s, my experience was that it was very valuable in many ways. Perhaps today it is different, in some places, for some people. But I don’t think dissing education is very helpful.
Let's just remember that in the old days before the internet you had to go to a university because that's where the information was. Now we have the internet and information is ubiquitous everywhere all the time whenever you want whenever you need it.
lol..Yes, information on the internet is ubiquitous, misinformation. That is very dangerous with people with zero ability to critically think. It's called the hallmark of the rightwing & Trumpism
Back in the 70s, even college bound high school students were REQUIRED to take one shop class, other side of the coin vo-tech students were REQUIRED to take one English Lit class. This policy built bridges between the classic grouping of teenagers (jock/nerd) etc...
I went to college because i KNEW i wanted to learn. Which i did eventually. But my first two years were a waste (Mormon junior college in Idaho, and also too busy being class heathen), and i went back in theory because 'degree' but mostly i was obsessed with learning and knowing certain things, and that's where the experts were. (Well, not at Mormon college). By contrast, i allowed my son to quit school during his senior year because he was ready to learn and practice a trade/learn a hands-on skill... because even high school in this country is, frankly, valueless--in addition to dangerous.
I got an electrical engineering degree, and the guy who hired me said, "Glad you could survive 4 years of bullshit." I got the job and I'm still learning on the job.
isnt EE different though as its pretty hard and technical, dealing with electricity is dangerous and you should know what you are doing before working on it
I'm 44 years old, went to college. All my friends did. NONE of us do ANYTHING we went to college for. Hell, my one buddy went to school three times to get three different degrees before he finally got a job that had something to do with anything he went to school for. My son decided not to go to college after seeing the loan debt his mother and I had (took me until I was 40 to pay it off) and after seeing all the debt and bullshit his friends' older siblings dealt with going to college and after graduating. I respected his decision. It's up to him. I'm not bashing college per say, I'm just saying it really isn't necessary for most jobs. Most jobs can train you for what they need yo to do.
College *was* a good idea for a long time. Back in the 1980s you get a good education for $600/semester -- that's what I remember writing out a check for. Adjusted for inflation that's about $1600. Good luck finding anything close to that these days, and for a vastly inferior education. This will be the true downfall of our society.
The only people I ever hear saying degrees are shit is people who aren't in the job market. My friend literally just got a job after being out of work for a year, and every job he went out for stonewalled him because he had no degree. Say what you want but for most markets - especially metro areas - you aren't even getting a call back with no degree.
I get what they're saying, and yes not everyone needs college but, 3 successful educated people arguing against college is kind of hilarious. Maher (Cornell), Weiss (Colombia), and Ryan (Bowling Green, and law degree from New Hampshire) who are doubtlessly where they are because of college.
@terry boswell she is dismissive and slightly obnoxious in her way of speaking! And she's making big sweeping statements that can easily be taken apart, but there's no voice from the other side of the debate (a college lecturer, a Gender Studies student etc) - so it's a one-sided commentary! Grating!
There’s a difference between going to college because you felt forced to do so and wanting others to not feel forced to do so by changing our culture around hiring practices
It is amazing how Mike Rowe and Tucker Carlson can talk about this for years together but it takes Bill Maher to get any acknowledgement of the problem.
I would add to the "put shop class back in schools" that they need to do better in public schools at math/science/reading. I don't care who you are if you can't read basic (insert your language here) then you can't read instructions on how to do things or learn new things. Yes, before I get chastised for it, not all professions have directions/written instructions. There are plenty of apprenticeships, and we have to get away from thinking "we're better than" someone without a college degree.
I worked for the Hamilton County (OH) Auditor for 5 years. 90% of the jobs within the county administration should not require any college. Most of those who retired during my time had their jobs since high school. It's clerk work, but it's 100% necessary.
There are positives to college. It does make you more rounded as a person. I love knowing tons of shit about the world and its history. I love knowledge bc knowledge is power. I'm just speaking for myself. I can't and won't go into an interview or meeting without knowing things. Both about what I'm interviewing for plus sounding like a box of rocks. Yes, college IS NOT for everyone. I get that. Trade schools are needed and excellent as well. Whatevet you choose to learn is great. More power to you . What is sad and disgusting today is the youth knowing nothing about anything and not even their job. Such as figuring exact change at Walmart or Target. 18-22 year olds can't do that anymore without a calculator or really their phone and their supervisors help. Knowledge is everywhere however most don't even try or seem to want to know. I can write forever on this subject but hopefully those out there may that read this get my gist. Pennsylvania unfortunately whereI live this is a HUGE issue and problem .
There are a lot of people that say the ‘kids’ now are lazy. I don’t think that’s it too much. I think they have never really been taught to learn and figure things out. I’d like to think I would be different if I was 20 right now but I’m not sure. I was born in 79 and came up without any real use of computers that was worthwhile and math tests it wasn’t allowed to use a calculator. Now all you have to do is ask google and you have an answer. Which, likely, will become much easier with the chat GPT. The youth isn’t forced to think and figure it out. They also seem to see nothing but social media people and wonder why they aren’t one in a million that makes it ‘big’ in that. And somehow feel entitled to success without hard…and sustained….work and continued ‘life’ learning.
@@nachoisme I'm an American living in Japan and teach at an international school here and the curriculum is pretty demanding. All the students learn programming, physics, calculus, statistics, we even have a business class. My daughter's school follows the Canadian curriculum and I have friend in Canada and check to see if his daughter (same age) is the learning the same. They are. Are American schools really that bad? I had heard like in Oregon that students had to pass a test to graduate and so now all the teachers simply teach the test.
@@rabbit251 if you want to get a great education someone certainly could but I think they have made it easier to ‘get by’ and graduate. I don’t teach or have kids so I may not be the one to judge best but I often hear exactly what you said that they teach for the test. As long as the score is high on a barrage for the students then all is well (I think).
Knowledge isn’t power. RELEVANT knowledge is power. The problem is that going to college gives you knowledge that is useless and not applicable in the job field. Sociology and psychology majors have no real world skills.
If we are going to onshore manufacturing to the USA for overseas, we need tool & die makers, pipe fitters, millwrights, steam fitters, iron workers, mechanics, carpenters, masons, electricians, steel workers, etc. We need shop class or some version of shop in Junior High or High School to expose children to the trades and show them the alternative to college by learning a skilled trade.
In Germany there are 3 types of high schools that prepare students for work by the time they are 20 depending on where they fall in their earliest years of education. Not everyone belongs in university.
I love how Bill was cool with showing how AI could replace others, but got REALLY defensive when it was applied to him. Laugh it up Bill. Like you said, it's "at the doorstep"...
IKR, why do we need college to educate nurses, doctors, biologists, or chemists. Who needs college to educate electrical engineers, social workers or mechanical engineers. They can all just teach themselves. Then, Brainac Bari Weiss will definitely want to hire them.
No one is saying for people/jobs that need solid education should not get those degrees. The argument is firstly that they removed a LOT of real blue collar education in favor or pushing everyone towards college. They should bring back an hour minimum per day in high school for working towards apprenticeships. And anyone with a student loan should never be bailed out by tax money. It was there decision, good, bad or stupid to get a degree and that is also what is at issue, that a huge quantity of College degrees are absolutely pointless and absurd. My last long term girlfriend had a 3 year degree as a Librarian. I learnt the Dewie decimal system in about 30 seconds when I was 5... what the hell are yo going to learn in 3 years at College to qualify as a librarian? She ended up after a year of job searching NOT getting a job, she went back to college and ended up with 3 degrees before she finally got a job doing Computer work. HR managers with degrees Why? What can they not learn 100% in just a little bit of on the job training and work experience? Then you get to Gender Studies which is pure delusion and make believe, cosmology and astrology and so on. Then you have that college costs are doubling every 6 years. Why? Because most of it is a scam. Yes you need degrees for true career paths, but half the degrees are pathetic waste of time that are not needed in the jobs they end up in.
@@lilmsgs LOL what??? No it makes the whole industry classist and elitist and changes the style of journalism overall for the worse. Not to mention it would've barred potential legends like Hunter S Thompson.. You can't actually be serious
@@lilmsgs And for the record, even the journalists with college degrees with tell you this. It's a major problem that many people have brought up over the years especially recently.
I have been a nurse since 1965 and I've noticed since that time it has been well known that nursing is a 'less desired' career than others on today's job spectrum, so what do they do instead of making it more attractive to choose nursing for a career they go about making it harder and more expensive to learn to do a job a woman/man with a high school diploma ( Canadian - I wouldn't even dream of speaking about the US) can do and accomplish "quo vadis" in a very practical and economic way. Too easy??? 🤔🤭🤪🤨🤣
I have my bachelor's in nursing. I got the vocational training to help the sick. I also got the critical thinking to assess sickness better and learned how to examine research to recognize best care practices. Not all of my education was useful (algebra, organic chemistry, and interpretation into art). It was a waste of time, but classes like medical microbiology, sociology, medical statics, pharmacology, and many others. My college education also taught me life is gray and that there is never or an always statement that is true.
In 1962 in grade 7 all the boys took shop and the girls took home ec. Then in grade 8 a bunch of the boys, and oddly enough the 'alpha' types, decided they should learn basic Home Ec. instead of shop. Four of us presented the idea to the Principle who took the suggestion to Mrs. Avery. You might as well have tried to get Christmas moved to July! That was 'forward' thinking in education in those days. I hear she had a stroke! 🤣
True, trade schools need to make a come back. Ive worked with many people being a mechanic. Every person owed high 5 figures in college debt and they never used the college skills.
Do American schools not teach these kinds of practical classes anymore? My school didn't because we were small, private, and focused on college prep. I got a degree in Education, but during my internship at the local high school we were teaching non-college bound kids practical skills like balance your checkbook, make a budget (include savings), make life / death decisions. Even the dumbest students took the class seriously because they knew they would need to do this and we added things to make it interesting. Schools don't do this anymore?
@@ZMAN_420 hard to find apprenticeships in trades these days too, so to get into a trade to basically need a cert from a community college at least unless you get lucky and somehow get an apprenticeship without that
@@rabbit251 Good Lord girl what country do you come from? When I read your answer I immediately thought "if only"? The education I got as a kid was abysmally taught mostly by people who were only there to pay a mortgage and keep up with the neighbours. Intellectualism was for those who were too rich to even care about it. 🤭🧐🙄🤔🤣
@@dennischallinor8497 I will admit that today I'm a retired attorney living in Japan after working here for the last 20 years, but the high school in Nebraska I interned at had that class and I taught it. My supervising teaching was exceptional! (He mostly taught Social Studies but was also the football coach). The community and students loved this class. We also had Home Ec and shop classes. I do meet teachers all the time, especially here in Japan, who shouldn't be teaching. (I think teachers that can't make in the US come to Japan). So with that I can commiserate. Some of my daughter's teachers are exceptionally bad, and we pay $20,000 / year for her school.
…Journalism IS a blue collar field. It’s a field hardly anyone can actually make money. I’ve been working professionally in the field for awhile and most people are making $30k or under. The reason why it’s a “regretted major” is because the pay is low, the hours are long, most places don’t grant OT or let you use PTO (if you’re given any to begin with) and you don’t get to see your family a lot and miss out on holidays.
Simplistic and anti-intellectual. College helps you develop an open-mind and critical thinking skills; most of your audience, Bill, is college-educated. College needs to adapt, for sure, and community college / vocation technical schools are always an option.
Education provides a certain degree of order and standard to the system which would otherwise succumb to chaos. It is important to take a balanced point of view on the issue. Having an underqualified generation entering the job market can cause incompetency and lower level of quality of goods and services. Rather it would be better to reduce the intake in the fields of education where we don't have enough jobs and regulate the fees to the courses which can cause student debt.
Great job at Telling the Truth. I went to CC my freshman year, and took 4 Real Estate classes. Instead of going back for my sophomore semester, l used my tuition $ to buy my 1st home while working as a waiter in 1980s Las Vegas. I bought, and sold property, and was a Millionaire by the time I turned 38. All w/I a Degree.
Three people who graduated from college say, no need for college for young people today? No need to further one's education, in general or specific fields? No need to start the practice of deep/critical thinking or studying or researching a given subject or field. Brilliant!
I didn’t finish college because I couldn’t afford it and I can’t get a job better than waiting tables or being someone’s secretary. To say it’s not hard to get a good job that makes enough money to have any quality of life is elitist. You wouldn’t say that if you weren’t successful and uneducated, Bari
I got a Dairy Science degree at South Dakota State University. 100% job placement and very decent money. Specialize in something food related. People are ALWAYS going to buy infant formula, put milk in their cold cereal, and throw a nice piece of cheese on their hamburger on the grill on July 4th. Also, food-especially junk foods like Doritos, that are coated with spray dried cheese powder-are absolutely Recession-Proof. What do people do when they are stressed about life and their finances? They EAT!!!!
I agree they shouldn’t push college and universities as the only path. But I will say this, most of my friends who have not gone to college always seemed. I’ll be a lot less knowledgeable and well rounded outside their skills, but that’s just my experience.
Graduated from college in 2000 and going to college was the worst thing I ever did. It became nothing more than an overrated, worthless, useless piece of paper. I agree with congressman Tim Ryan that we need the shop classes back.
Went straight to work after high school. When all my peers graduated college, I had a 4 year head start on them. I was hired as an engineering manager by my mid 20's without a degree. The thinking was that they wanted someone who could do things leading the engineers that had degrees.
might want to get a degree later on to protect yourself from layoffs, often times a person climbs the ladder and management uses their lack of a degree as a way to replace them with someone younger and less money
Show me how many jobs still exist that pay well enough without a college education. In the 50s and 60s when I was a kid, I grew up in an upper middle class neighborhood, and my parents bought our house brand new, and we were the first family to live there. My parents were college educated, and they both worked, but a lot of the people in our neighborhood in those new homes weren't college graduates, and a lot of the women were housewives. There were truck drivers, mechanics, plumbers, electricians, machinists, salesmen, etc. From the end if WWII until the "Reagan revolution", people without a college education could get a good paying job, and could afford to buy a new home, a new car, take the family on vacation, send the kids to college, and save for retirement, which resulted in a flourishing economy, and exponentially expanded the middle class, the expansion of, and great migration to, the suburbs, and resulted in decades of unparalleled economic and technological advancements. Then came the Reagan era, where the agenda of all the gains going to the top, and none to the workers, began, with less income equality and workers rights all the time, where maximizing profits became the only thing that matters, no matter what the cost to workers and consumers. Our system is broken beyond repair, and is unsustainable, until we return to that system of shared prosperity for all.
Wow. Sometimes Bill Maher really surprises me. I get it when he criticizes a gender studies degree but who do you hire if you want to design a high voltage smart grid system? An electrical engineer with a degree or any Tom, Dick and Harry from the street? To design anything sophisticated (or doing science in general) requires a 4 year degree. You need well funded labs which are otherwise inaccessible if you abandon a degree. You need large endowments to realize the crazy research projects that end up changing the world (like ChatGPT which he mentions). A very ill informed take on the subject. Harrowing!
As a proud college dropout I’ve been saying for a long time: a heck of a lot of people would be much better served going to a TRADE SCHOOL than a 4 year college. I didn’t have the chops to become an electrical engineer, but I bet you I could have been a pretty good electrician or automotive technician. If we’re going to forgive debt for anybody I say we should start with the trades long before we get to the philosophy and art history majors!
I come from a family where going to University was automatic...We are Canadians. I don't know whether that matters. We are 6 professionals a Dentist, Lawyer ,Judge, Phd Scientist, Doctor and retired Civil servant. Going to school a real school is the right thing to do.Period!
When Ryan says "Let's bring back shop class", I couldn't agree more. Also home economics and civics. If I want to be a CT scan technician at a hospital or a heavy equipment operator, it can be easily be done for at least 2 years after high school at a school under university. Don't need a bachelor's for those.
@@WTFisthis327 a lot of these public schools barely have the funds to retain quality staff let alone set up labs with expensive electronics I’m not against these type of classes but I can see the rationale for getting rid of them
I'm an Engineer. I interview 2-3 people a week in my field. I don't care about their degree, publications, experience. All I care about and enquire through my questions is their ability to listen, learn and work as a team.
i used to work for a gm supplier and when the engineers would come down to fix a problem they would say we need to try this and that to see if it worked. i would tell him sir we do all that already. this is a deeper issue. he would make us do it anyways and then say okay, your down here in the trenches all day what do you think would work. we would shoot an idea and bam, fixed. we can' t make certain calls because we didn't go to college so if an engineer breaks it it's okay but not us. that's when i started saying, you need to go to college in order to make stupid decisions lol. i can't wait for AI to take over so whiny people like him can complain because we'll still need certain jobs just no where near as many.
I’m currently surrounded by master students in engineering and I am simply not impressed by the intellect of many of them. I’m sorry to say that, as they are nice people, but they are not smart. And yet, this silly degree already lines them up for a great set of jobs without further questions.
When I was in high school, it would never have occurred to me to not go to college. I was in the harder classes. The expectation by everyone was for me to go. So I went. One of the most enlightening classes that I took was logic. Not because of the curriculum but because of the class. There were two distinct groups of students. The people who understood the concepts intuitively and those who did not.
For now, maybe. But the knowledge gained through some of those programs dates very quickly. And employment trends can shift dramatically. Look at what's happening in tech, for example.
I was a college professor for over two decades, and I sadly watched as the corporatization of education (along with the crippling effects of standardized testing) destroyed everything the college stood for. The focus on "jobs training" is not what education ever was about, nor should it be. Ideally, education is meant to help you be a better thinker so that no matter which job you end up with, you can succeed. By the time I left education, the administration's only focus was to keep bodies coming in the door so that bills could be paid. Faculty were no longer colleagues; increasingly they were nothing more than lowly employees implementing the misguided principles that were dictated to them by career administrators who had rarely if ever set foot in a classroom. I'm glad that part of my life is behind me, but it's depressing to see how rapidly education in this country has devolved.
I am grateful to have been able to attend college, learn to view things objectively, critically, and from various perspectives. The fascist anti Education, whitewashing of history, and burdensome debt infiltration of higher education now is a shame.
@@RendaJane Yeah, lets have pro-Fascist education instead....it worked great in Germany and Italy in the 1930s....smh....
@@davesmith4110 That doesn’t make sense.
DeSantist is the fascist who is banning African American studies, history, etc.
It’s the fascist who want to ban books and deny education to people. That’s the fascist ideology who want to destroy public education.
@@RendaJane You were complaining about "fascist anti Education" and I think he read it as "anti-fascist education." As though you were a right-winger complaining about Antifa taking over the education system. Which I don't think is the case.
@Commenter Apparently.
As an engineer, I'll be the first to say I needed college to do what I do. My experience was in STEM education pretty exclusively. Others can speak to other experiences, but engineering and other STEM fields need a degree.
Nobody is talking about you.
It helps, but as a MEP engineer 95% of what I do I learned at the job. Would of been better just to take two semesters of HVAC engineering. I Never had to use differential equation or advanced material science at my job.
Apprenticeship has been used for engineering so education may cut down on how much an employer needs to spend for training.
Yeah, I'm a Civil Engineer. I can acknowledge that I needed to go. It would take entirely too long to teach me what I need to know "on the job". I also wouldn't be able to come up with solutions outside of my specialty.
This is exactly it. There are certain fields that require special training and the university serves that purpose. The problem is that they've convinced people that some less useful fields also require the same level of education, or that the field should exist at all. At any university, the cost between becoming and electrical engineer and a women's studies major is comparable. Guess which one is going to be better off.
I taught college for many years. I met many students who didn't want to be there but were pressured by family and high school advisers. The whole idea is to get upward mobility rather than joining the working class, doing an honest day's work, and fighting for unionization and collective bargaining. When i got out of high school, I couldn't afford college, so I worked in factories, and did a hitch in the Navy. When I finally got to college I could appreciate it and benefit from it rather than feeling I had to go there. We should have a system of apprentice training, as in Germany. Skilled labor should get more respect. We don't need more snobby yuppies.
Totally agree. Some companies do have training and apprentice programs, but it should be more. I have a degree in teaching and in my school's program we had to do two, six-month internships at real schools. (I taught at the local public high school in Nebraska, and then at a private school in Wisconsin. (I did have to go to summer school for 2 years to be able to finish all my required classes in 4 years).
Believe it or not, the public school students were much better behaved, although we were teaching them a class about life skills (balance a checkbook, make a budget, make life / death decisions) which even the dumbest students paid attention. I also had a great supervising teacher teacher. A lot really depends on the quality of the teacher I found. My brother got a degree in Education also but different college and no internship. He quit after his first week at school.
Apprenticeships are still very common in Europe but not in the US. There are jobs that require secondary education. Some public school systems have excellent vocation programs. Often times those programs are built and funded by local companies who need those types of workers.
Not all college grads are snobby yuppies. Labeling people will be the end of civilized society.
My dad was an officer in the USN from 1942-1965. Retired, got his MBA while working as a business manager for the state we lived in and retired at 58yo due to health issues. He passed away when I was 21yo. He encouraged all his kids to go to college. I'm the youngest of the group and he died 2 weeks after I graduated.
Nixon & the big corporations took the jobs to China.. Then they destroyed the unions except for the police unions. There are few factory jobs in America.
I agree that we should have more kinds of education, apprentice ships, specialized schools, trade schools, and that we should start his at a high school level. However, there is another problem I see which is is that people without college degrees are unable to discern facts from bullshit. Look at anyone who believes preposterous fake news stories, pseudoscience, or and the odds are they never went to college. It's true that degrees are basically pieces of paper and that any rich asshole who puts in the time can get one; however, most good colleges require students to do real research and use real facts to deliver clear findings and communication about real things. Fewer and fewer people care about facts, and most of those people did not go to college.
I can appreciate your post. Graduated in 92 and I had no idea what I wanted to do, so I was talking with the Marines. Family told me that I was too smart to NOT go to college and made me feel like I would be a failure if I didn't go...lasted a year. Job hoped thru 9/11 and joined. Excelled in the Army. Suffered some injuries and ended up being "awarded early retirement". Went to college to become a teacher to combat the system from the inside and I am not sure it's even possible at this point.
When I was looking at university in 2003, my mom politely suggested I look at trades. I thought she was thinking I wasn't very smart and I would flunk out. I thought long and hard, then made a decision to become a machinist. Fast forward 20 years and I completed an apprenticeship, got married, bought a house, paid off my student loan, started a family, paid off multiple car loans and enjoy a comfortable life. I know I made a good decision. Thanks mom.
That’s great. And I know people who went to college that are rich as well.
@@jamess3680 I do as well.
@@jamess3680 what an oddly defensive thing to say. Its ok if you go to college. Its ok if you don't. But you aren't making $50 an HR in most jobs, but as a machinist....maybe
@@matthewklahn3204 Yes. But not a lot of people want to be a machinist.
@@CM-re1vm Still need some school for trades however removing bs majors that Don't lead to jobs could help
It’s funny how at first Bill is like “Go ChatGPT! It will replace all of you!”, but got offended when it was suggested that it could replace him :)
My thoughts exactly. In fact I checked the comments to see if anyone had noticed that. Yeah, hurray for AI when it's targeting the jobs of you college educated idiots; not so much when my livelihood is threatened. Hypocritical maybe?
Bill instantly getting sensitive when being confronted with the perspective of being replaced by AI, hilarious.
yes and it underscores how specious his hot take on AI replacing a college education really is.
Bill suddenly getting hot under the collar when faced with the prospect of an AI taking over his job was funnier than any joke he made the whole episode. Like many practical-minded Americans, Bill underestimates the value of a truly liberal education -- an education that is, in a way, an end in itself, regardless of whether it helps you get a job. People of Bill's narrowly pragmatic mindset are the ones who want to cut all funding to the arts, who can't understand the value of higher culture, are blind to the beauty of nature, and, as Oscar Wilde said, know the price of everything and the value of nothing. Reading a Dostoyevsky novel, hearing a Mendelssohn symphony live, grappling with the great thinkers, learning the intricacies of a science, enjoying the sublimity of a Yeats poem -- these are things which have no practical value and will almost never help anyone land a real-life job . . . and yet these things are truly priceless, things that enrich and deepen our minds, make us better and more sympathetic human beings, and bring a higher joy to our lives. These are things that an unthinking and purely imitative AI (as Bill at least has the insight to perceive as it relates to himself) simply cannot replace.
@@panopsis7317 Liberal arts education? Like "sex is a social construct". Get real.
@@panopsis7317 nothing about today's education is "truly liberal" by a mile.
@@panopsis7317"know the price but not the value" is such bull.... STEM is the only field that requires higher education... Hard sciences... Liberal arts for the most part.. Do not
A good way to lower the cost of a college degree is to take your lower division (first two years) classes at a community college which is nearly free and then transfer to a public university in your own state (lower resident tuition). I did that back in the day and along with a little part time work and some help from the G.I. Bill graduated debt free. My route was Solano Community College in Fairfield, CA then a transfer to U.C. Davis (College of Engineering).
I did the same in Memphis, TN & graduated from U of Memphis with no debt with a BS degree, then went on to get my Masters also no debt. I'm glad I did it that way. There are 5 of us & we all graduated from college. Some didn't use it, but don't regret getting a degree. I do wish they taught more shop classes & life skills in high school, so people have a choice. Also, the unions need to come back so people have some rights against the corporations.
I agree its a good idea, especially if you the student is still trying to figure out what they want to study. They have to be focused to leave in two years then transfer , or they will be there four years before they know it , then transfer.
Great advice
True, but even better would be to just do away with the Gen Ed parts of college completely. Have you seen those class schedules: Intro to World History 101. College Algebra. Freshman Composition. Why are people even taking these classes? You were supposed to pass those in high school!
*
Today, colleges offer remedial English and Basic math classes: what the heck is a person doing in College without having passed Algebra 1 or Composition? What a joke!
@@sidwhiting665 same reason Cornel has the first year students do a swimming test, its a bigone era exam that pushes them to succeed. Its not the classes they pass or take, its the commitment to push yourself beyond what you think you are capable of. Its kind of like navy seals that either pass or fail. And the ones the pass, let me tell you go on to do some amazing things in their life, since they learn nothing is impossible, if you set your mind to it.
Bill feeling the heat from a fire that he feeds.
Awesome.
How does a talk show host feed the AI fire? If anything, I’ve heard Bill critical of AI. He’s in the Sam Harris camp when it comes to AI.
One of the most valuable things about college to me was getting out of my home town bubble and meeting people from all over the country (and world), being introduced to new ideas, music, etc. It was eye opening and perspective broadening.
That is very nice. However I am sure you can see how the rest of us should not have to subsidize someone like you going to college for that wonderful experience. You get into debt for it, you get out it all by yourself.
@@Beatit19 Using me is a bad example since I did pay my own way, lol. However, I personally have no problem with some of my taxes paying for a basic higher education for others since I feel it benefits us all ultimately. Nor would I have an issue funding trade schools.
Tim Ryan, you hit the nail on the head "let's bring back shop class"!
I had a college instructor said to us when he worked in a HS in Connecticut they took out wood, metal, and auto shop. He asks the school board. "So, is everyone supposed to be a doctor or lawyer now?
when it comes to law and medicine, I definitely want my doctors and lawyers to have a huge amount of education, the more years the better
U do know that 'General Ed" degree or any degree will get U into Law School don't U?
just make it accessible for everyone.
@@GeekonaBike give it a shot, if you can pass the LSAT and get by admissions.
Ironically, that states that allow lawyers to practice without a degree are liberal.
@@theBear89451 California and New York, have pretty tough bar exams, I don’t think too many people are passing without going to school.
When I was a young lass out of high school (eons ago), employers wanted to see college on a resume -- regardless of the major -- it proved a prospective employee could commit and finish something they started. But, then again, once one was hired, you stayed with that employer 20-25+ years until retirement. There was no jumping around from job to job every two years. Therefore, college educations were encouraged, esp. by post-WWII parents.
If you don't jump from job to job every two years you're not truly advancing your career, no company can adequately provide raises that help you grow as much as new avenues.
Gen X here.
I on the other hand worked for 4 company's that either went out of business or moved to another state or country.
"Jumping around"
Is not usually a choice.
Company's stopped offering incentives/benefits such as affordable medical, paid time off, pension, sick days etc.
Ah, the good ol' days of the American work force.
Republicans have spent decades letting corporations off the hook with irresponsible business practice,corporate welfare, deregulation and excessive tax incentives.
They sold out the future of the working middlr class to insure high profits and as little accountability as possible.
They don't want independent thinking. They don't want people who can take care of themselves.
The thing with, and it comes up here again and again.....union workers GET PAID for their education hours, not pay for and party just as much. Too bad only about 10% of the workforce(according to another actual journalism program) is a member of an actual labor union. College does give you skills and a base of knowledge, reading the anthro books is way better than tuning in to Shatner for an hour a week, please, but there's so many people that think they are actually going to be flying private next to Shatner on a 10 seater, really? no prolly never Elmer, like the other 98% of all of us! I hear ya Bill. After a couple few generations of stress about job security and not much reward along with stagnant wages and shit sausages it's no wonder people don't even show up to support anyone, let alone the urban elite or the company "man" who the IT department knows when your hands are away from your keyboard long enough to take a leak! By the way Ed Bagley has his finger on the pulse🍁
@@ymerej33 😂yes it was the republicans! I’m sure the noble democrats were fighting for you the entire time too right?
Didn’t joe Biden just quash the BNSF union railroad workers strike 3 weeks ago? Are you really going to sit here and lie to me and tell me bill Clinton and Barack Obama did not allow some of the most devastating abuses of the middle class under their “leadership”?
I’m not a fan of republicans either, but anybody who can’t acknowledge the things we saw after the 2008 collapse and the DISGUSTING spending bills that Nancy, chuck, and MCCONNEL passed these past few years are a complete abuse of the American working class. Democrats are not your friends either, and they deserve to be called out as well.
It has always been my position that a) college education is not necessary to perform on a job but b) it is not bullshit, a scam, a racket. It is required to educate people of the world they live in. Biology, science, history, democracy etc etc.
Indeed
Two wealthy Ivy Leaguers calling college bullshit is pretty rich.
It used to be that people learned those things in high school. I remember learning critical thinking in junior high, although with history, democracy, biology, and other sciences. The idea that we need to delay that education for five years, leaving teenagers stupid and 20-somethings broke - seems like a scam to me. Education is wonderful, but it's absolutely terrible for families to feel like they need to go broke just so their children aren't destitute - especially when so many wind up destitute in spite of their education.
@@calmbbaer I’d say about 99% of the people I know that went to college and graduated are not destitute and living pretty good lives. I’m 36 so 12-13 years out of college.
Don't forget Gender Studies, lesbian Studies, Flying Disk Entertainment and Education, European Union Degree, Feminist Studies, Surf science and Technology, Floral Design and the Psychology of fashion!
The people on this panel, including Bill must not realize that you can do almost nothing and get through high school. They pass you to push you through and some learn as little as 10% of what they are taught. The first 2 years of college are the new high school until high school is fixed.
The public schools got rid of the shop class, the laboratory, and the civics classes and current events homework. Be afraid! Be very afraid!
Stop pretending like people learn anything in shop class. In fact.. stop pretending people learn anything in public school at all. They don't hold onto that knowledge in the long term. They're not retaining anything presented to them after 2nd or 3rd grade. If you ask someone who's 18 what they leaned in school (past 3rd grade) they'll say that all they remember is that "the mitochondria is the powerhouse of the cell" from biology class and maybe some flashbacks to watching The Patriot.
Shop class is a waste of time, sorry. The public school system is there to teach various levels of verbal and mathematical literacy, along with basic sciences, from which everything else one needs to learn (including woodworking) can be picked up
If a school wants to offer it as an EC, sure, but if they’re looking for things needing cutting, shop class is reasonably near the top of the list
@@Youtoober6947 My school didn't have shop classes because it was too small, but you can't learn carpentry or masonry simply from mathematics. My dad is a carpenter and although I went on to be a teacher and lawyer, I helped him build houses in high school and college. Years later we were volunteer working on Habitat for Humanity house. We had all these office workers with college degrees helping. My dad was putting on the roof and would yell the measurements to them below for cutting the valleys, and they kept cutting it wrong wasting a lot of wood. I finally stopped in the area I was working on and cut the boards. We finished the whole roof in one day and put the project ahead by a week.
No, you can't learn woodworking from simple math class.
@@rabbit251 Your co workers not being able to cut wood are not indicative of the entire population.
People are taught and learn much more complex things than wood working via books. It will take trial and error and wasting some wood, but it is absolutely not impossible to learn wood working simply by reading + trial and error.
My point is, cutting wood isn’t an essential thing that needs to be mandatory in public schools. Learning how to read, math, and the basic sciences are.
@@rabbit251 Also shop class isn’t teaching anyone the nuances required to become a competent carpenter. That’s a profession one requires time and practice in to become good at, like any other.
Learning the fundamentals required to learn about everything else is much more important than learning how to cut wood in the event that you may randomly need to build a house one day, in which case shop class wouldn’t have prepared you for that anyway.
College was definitely pushed way too hard when I was in school. We were told repeatedly by teachers that if we didn't go to college, we would struggle. That being said, I don't think college is bullshit. It's just not for everyone, and there certainly are bullshit degrees. I ended up not going to college until my 30s, and I loved it. I got a 2 year degree and then decided to get my BS. Overall, I had a great experience. I learned how to be a problem solver. I learned that i was capable of a lot more than i thought. This whole disdain for education that gets people riled up is scary. It's like that Carlin bit, "they want to keep us just dumb enough to push the buttons and fill out the paperwork and not question anything."
Some fields 100% require a college degree; medicine, engineering, accounting, etc. But others do not; marketing, business administration, etc. And trades should not be undervalued as they are. Plumbers, carpenters, etc. are essential.
We as a society need to stop worshipping college degrees.
Trades need to be emphasized more, and there is often better money to be made as well. Plumbers/electricians etc, can make very good $$$.
I'm actually glad I only have a high school diploma and didn't want student debt
@@troybabs they’re great except your body is usually destroyed by the time you’re 45.
No, we need to stop them from selling useless degrees. That is not the vast majority of them. There is nothing wrong with not getting a college degree, and instead getting further educated in a trade school, but we need both. Employers for the most part don't want to pay for the education either way, and most require "education AND experience" for any job with a living wage.
@@grippo1927 Not of you're smart about it.
So great to see "Real Time" back with another new season. With regard to this topic, higher education needs to be restructured so that it's affordable to anyone who wants it. Community colleges, for example, are wonderful because you only pay for the classes themselves - not for all the extra fees each semester that make universities unaffordable. At the end of the day, what matters is what you wanna do for a living. If that requires a university degree, then so be it. But in most cases, it does not.
The day that happens is the day the U.S:. Is no longer a functional country. It’s all about money now, not worrying about the next generation..capitalism doesn’t last forever.
There are jobs where college is necessary (doctor, nurse, engineering, really any science.)
A lot of doctors were trained in apprenticeships before college was deemed necessary. The change was not done for the consumer's benefit.
@@michaelprice6448 “Consumer”?
It’s not just shop class, it’s agriculture, construction, shop class, auto class. THIS IS WHERE ENGINEERING DEGREES START(as well as biology, environmental science, and other critical majors). Some high schools in the country provide all of the classes I listed above, I have designed them.
I have a 4 year college degree, I can’t say I totally regret it, but I’m not going to pretend I couldn’t do my job without having wasted those 5 years in a classroom.
My current position required a masters degree when all one really needs in my position is good interpersonal skills, muscle memory, and a great deal of patience.
I fell in Love with Learning in College. I found out what I liked and what I did not.
I studied Shakespeare while going to school in England.
I had a FANTASTIC experience which prepared me for my future. I became a Clinical Scientist III. With my Masters . College was exactly what gave me a safe place to Learn How to Really Learn. (critical thinking)
It was really a perfect experience. I met my husband there who became a Medical Doctor. I got my beautiful children and my white picket fence. I worked extremely hard and am so grateful for my positive life experience.
that's not the point. The point is if you have to spend tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars to learn critical thinking, something is wrong.
@@Obscuredinsight I was on a full ride scholarship. I had four daughters and all four got full ride scholarships.
It still cost money for food and extras. I was born in 1960, so I truly believe that it was a different time, and WE BOOMERS were different. No internet, no social media, no one was morbidly obese, we were active. Once again, I PERSONALLY had an incredible education that I Earned. I have a degree that goes anywhere. The more I specialized the more money I was paid
There is a huge difference learning something on RUclips, and practicing on a daily basis. I am a Medical Professional.
I doubt you are yet.
The thing is, in the US. There's too many colleges that doesn't always guarantee you getting into the profession that you want.
@@moniqueengleman873 man I was soo with you until you thought you actually earned all of that cheap education 😪🤡
The problem is how they teach at American Universities. I got a STEM degree and honestly, we all could have graduated in 2 years as opposed to 4 or 5. Most of our classes for the first two years were just reviews of what we already learned in high school, or liberal arts classes that felt more like indoctrination than an actual education. I was required to take a class where all we did was hear how racist America was. One girl from Uganda said no one ever excluded her or treated her badly in the States and the professor literally spoke to her after class as if she did something wrong. A lot of mandatory classes were just "fluff" and not necessary at all.
I was able to "challenge" my classes. All I HAD to do was show up for tests and pass the Finals. It saved me 18 months of fluff classes.
Yeah sorry I just got through a graduate program and an undergraduate program 4 years ago at a large state school and never took a course on how “racist we are”
@@Youtoober6947 No psychology, or philosophy or Criminal Justice Classes? 🤔
weird
@@moniqueengleman873 Nope. Took a first year literature course where we read various mainstream philosophical works and never got to the “america is racist” part that so many ppl meme about these days.
Our society and culture was formed under racism and slavery, developing throughout time to inherently describe and project non-white people as different, if not much worse. Yes, we no longer condone slavery, but these projections are still contained in much of the imagery, metaphors, shared stories, and stereotypes we have about different races (and oftentimes monsters, aliens, animals, and other creatures) today. Since, you were born into this fabric of language and perception that already existed, and we are a product of our environment, this is perhaps why you were called racist.
What you're missing is the fact that there are thousands of us with jobs that require a degree which don't even pay us enough to pay off that degree. I know hundreds of people like me too. Teachers, social workers, etc.
I'm also a general studies major, but i dont want other people to pay for my fuckup. I was scammed. I'll remember.
That's why you don't get those degrees unless they're for fun and you can afford them. Make a cost/return analysis before committing. That doesn't mean they're worthless, mind you.
For example, I sure ain't ever gonna make a living out of my music degree (nor do I think I should) but its return of investment isn't monetary. I knew that before I got into it and for me its unique brand of RoI is prioritized over money. If your priority is money - choose other career path.
We need more Barri Weiss’s.
Bari Weiss 🔥🔥🔥
A college degree is required for my profession, so I definitely don't consider it "BS." Going to college was one of the best decisions I've made.
Careful, don't let any of the true believers on this channel know that. They'll crucify you, despite the fact that not a single one of them would even consider going to a doctor or lawyer who didn't graduate from college and go on to get an advanced degree. Also, very few in here seem willing to admit that getting degrees in STEM fields is not the same as getting a degree in Gender Studies. Their only reason for throwing college under the bus currently is that progressive liberals currently control the teaching of the humanities and soft sciences. But the laws of engineering and the hard sciences don't bend for political expediency.
Frankly, I expected more careful reasoning from Bari Weiss.
My niece and nephew graduated from an Ivy League school, Communications and Biochemistry respectively. My niece got her Masters and now works for Cisco Systems. My nephew is at a different ivy school getting his Ph. D. all paid for by a German company. (Part of program is that he must conduct their experiments and the company paid for a very modern lab). After he graduates next year pretty sure lots of companies will be trying to recruit him. I myself have a degree in Education and Law, but now I'm retired. My daughter has a Masters in Structural Engineering and reviews big project building plans. My son never went to college due to personal problems. He just got a job repairing houses that have been flooded. He makes $15/hr..
I don't think they're talking about a job in which a college degree actually is useful; they're talking about a college degree being a gate for a job that doesn't really use those skills.
@@ojyochan But how do they know that a college degree isn't useful for that job? If the job requires critical thinking it is better to hire a college graduate because generally they have been taught that skill. Someone who didn't go to college may have figured it out themselves, but statistically the odds are against them.
What Bill is trying to say is that colleges no longer even teach skills like critical thinking so the whole time and expense is a waste.
The key is what major you're getting into, because the cost of college really forces you to choose majors that will get you a decent job, such as engineering
I took shop class, home economics, and went to college. They can all be valuable in the right circumstances, but only one of them can also leave aimless teenagers saddled with tens of thousands of debt for most of the rest of their lives.
ok but josh Shapiro went to Georgetown law school and Bari Weiss went to Columbia and bill went to Cornell so isn't that ironic for the three of them to be the ones saying this?
Been saying this for a few years! All the tradespeople are retiring and there are no experienced people to replace them! Bring back trade schools!
Philadelphia...my home town. Took shop classes, after my high school graduation,
I left Philly to Maryland and became an associate architect and construction project manager with no degree. 🎓🤷🏽♂️
That sounds weird and I've never heard of a process like that. I mean, doesn't that need, you know, math, physics, applied to engineering?
@@YouAreStillNotablaze Who knew you can learn the specific skills you need for a job, on the job? Nah I'd rather go 80k in debt to learn a little bit about a lot of things and still require on the job training.
@@YouAreStillNotablaze No...not during that time. Education was different back them...so I put myself in design college for architecture and interior design
@@edwardhurdle5013 And, the end result wasn't.. a degree? You know, so when you apply for job and they decide to their chance and bet their money and safety on you, there's some indication you know what you're doing?
@@YouAreStillNotablaze ...I'm very good at what I do. I've been in the industry and very successful for over 30 years
Students who take eduction seriously get an enormous amount out of college. Others do not. Many get some. Show me an institution where everyone is motivated and where all of its goals are met. “It’s all bullshit because I don’t understand what the major is about, and students party.” Deep analysis, Bill.
Literally not what he said.
College has become a way to filter out applicants for jobs.
In the 70's, I took a five year break from college. Upon my return, I was amazed at how watered down it seemed. It seemed like getting an "A" was easier later on than it was when I first started. And, after achieving two degrees specific to a field and with experience, couldn't make enough to live on and eventually couldn't even find an employer,. So I moved on to Yacht Repair and from there, other marine industries; I never really needed an advanced education for much of it.
Yacht repair sounds fun in a weird way.
I remember someone long ago who was making like twice the minimum wage just cleaning boats and repairing/servicing the engines. And they were like 19 or something. (2001-2003 ish probably)
They also probably had networking opportunities and were able to go on dope af boat party excursions. (One often forgotten aspect of wealthy people who are decent people...is that they actually do share the luxuries of their wealth).
Was that a career? No. Was it 15-20 an hour and chillin with rich af and smart people? Yes.
There is an old joke. You should always seek out the spaces where you are never the smartest person in the room.
"They are bullshit"!
I love you Bill Maher!
Hmm, I think that I want my doctor, dentist, physicist, geologist, chemist, biologist etc to have a degree thanks very much!
And what's wrong about the guy who fixes your car having read Wordsworth and knowing who Charlemaign was?
@@AndrewVelonisHe doesn't need school for that.
I learned more from my friends/classmates than I did from classes and professors. That's a big part of the college experience. And, it's clearly not just about getting prepared to do a job. Those first jobs out of college are usually way below what graduates are capable of doing. For some it's worth the expense, for others, it's not. Nothing is guaranteed.
It’s scam because it’s expensive. If it cost as much as high school nobody would complain
I went to college and got a 4.00 GPA. But when I started working many of the things I learned didn’t apply to my job. I probably could have done my job without a college or even a high school education to be honest. Yet my job required a bachelors degree and 3 years of experience or a masters degree and 1 year of experience. I worked an internship during college and out over 100 job applications and 6 interviews only one place hired me. And I am already top performer 3 months in.
Shane, so cool that you are in a great place career-wise and doing so well. Also, not looking to argue, but I was wondering, as a thought experiment, could you have done your current job as the 18 y/o straight out of high school? Was there a difference between 18 y/o Shane and 22 y/o Shane? Assuming that the 22 y/o version of yourself was better qualified, other than college, what could to you have done in that 4 years to prepare you for that career besides your academic experience?
College is not a bad deal at all for useful majors. There is an equation called the Mincer equation, in empirical economics, which captures returns to education, and it is pretty clear higher ed can raise your salary enough to compensate for the costs of the major.
Now, it does vary a lot by majors. So no wonder people from the mentioned majors in this segment feel they regret their studies.
But we also have to think about the public sector. Maybe sociology majors should be more valued in government jobs, since the demand for them will obviously come mostly from the public sector.
But yes, most of those humanities majors are in low demand for the amount of people who choose it. But let's not confuse college education with the humanities. STEM fields are still a very good investment.
Tim Ryan is Right. I'm a Republican but I agree with him
Mate the problem is the commercialization and commodification of tertiary education, not education itself. If it was free (like it has been in Australia in the past) none of you would oppose someone learning…. Or would you? This looks like yet another example of the USA confusing itself with it’s own idiosyncrasy.
Its interesting Bill says college is bullshit yet he always loves to remind people he went to Cornell
Bill is not a thinker, just an entertainer.
I’m so glad I worked hard and graduated VCU. Payed for it all myself with loans and a tiny Pell grant. It was totally worth the hard work, my work ethic alone has helped me all my life.
This is excellent news!
Way to go, Nancy. Undoubtedly your major courses, and liberal arts courses helped your work, and your life. But college is also about learning how to deal with vast amounts of information, often abstract information, sorting through information and organizing it. It's a process by which one implicitly learns a very real skill for today's world. Your work ethic was enhanced by the number of hours you put in, and from what you learned. and how you learned it..
You get out of school what you put into it.
Spend four years actually developing an understanding of how things work in a technical field? You're set for life.
Spend four years partying? Then you might feel as though you fell for a scam, but no one forced you to major in "General Studies."
Bill Maher is a Cornell grad, no? While his History major might not have contributed to his success as a stand up comedian, I'm sure it has served him well in his career interviewing politicians and contemplating politics! What a disturbing and hypocritical (and completely unfair) hot take on liberal arts, humanities and philosophy degrees that contribute a great deal to civilization and can equally make an immense difference to the lives of working-class/first gen/queer students.
If for nothing else, college is good for learning critical thinking, which doesn’t happen in high school for too many. If those who say college shouldn’t be needed, then high school will need to have real reform.
Lol no one learns critical thinking in college.
@@sojourner99 maybe you haven’t been to college
My high school had several vocational studies programs. Mind u i graduated in the 90s but
You could graduate high school with cosmetology license as certified nurses aids auto mechanics electrical hvac and so on.
College isn’t for everyone and you shouldn’t b made to feel like you will have no future without it.
These programs gave hope to those of us who knew our parents couldn’t send us to college. I became a cna by time I graduated and eventually went to college when I was in my 20s and became a registered nurse.
The root problem is companies requiring applicants have college degrees not because the degree is necessary to do the job, but because the company wants to narrow their applicant pool. This is the reason so many kids go to college. Because they know job descriptions will say MUST HAVE COLLEGE DEGREE.
Well, A.I. is never going to replace the most basic elements of humanity. A few days ago, a radio DJ plugged a song into an AI song rating, and didn't tell the audience initially what the song was. The AI function gave the song only a 57% for vocal ability, but a 97% for "danceability". Then he played the song. It was Thunderstruck by AC/DC.
When I went to college in the 80s, my experience was that it was very valuable in many ways. Perhaps today it is different, in some places, for some people. But I don’t think dissing education is very helpful.
Let's just remember that in the old days before the internet you had to go to a university because that's where the information was. Now we have the internet and information is ubiquitous everywhere all the time whenever you want whenever you need it.
lol..Yes, information on the internet is ubiquitous, misinformation. That is very dangerous with people with zero ability to critically think. It's called the hallmark of the rightwing & Trumpism
You explained that much better than the panel did.
Back in the 70s, even college bound high school students were REQUIRED to take one shop class, other side of the coin vo-tech students were REQUIRED to take one English Lit class. This policy built bridges between the classic grouping of teenagers (jock/nerd) etc...
I went to college because i KNEW i wanted to learn. Which i did eventually. But my first two years were a waste (Mormon junior college in Idaho, and also too busy being class heathen), and i went back in theory because 'degree' but mostly i was obsessed with learning and knowing certain things, and that's where the experts were. (Well, not at Mormon college).
By contrast, i allowed my son to quit school during his senior year because he was ready to learn and practice a trade/learn a hands-on skill... because even high school in this country is, frankly, valueless--in addition to dangerous.
I got an electrical engineering degree, and the guy who hired me said, "Glad you could survive 4 years of bullshit." I got the job and I'm still learning on the job.
So would they have hired you without the degree?
isnt EE different though as its pretty hard and technical, dealing with electricity is dangerous and you should know what you are doing before working on it
I'm 44 years old, went to college. All my friends did. NONE of us do ANYTHING we went to college for. Hell, my one buddy went to school three times to get three different degrees before he finally got a job that had something to do with anything he went to school for. My son decided not to go to college after seeing the loan debt his mother and I had (took me until I was 40 to pay it off) and after seeing all the debt and bullshit his friends' older siblings dealt with going to college and after graduating. I respected his decision. It's up to him. I'm not bashing college per say, I'm just saying it really isn't necessary for most jobs. Most jobs can train you for what they need yo to do.
I agree. But there are jobs where you really do need a degree. Doctors, engineers, physicists, etc.
@@kickapoo242 Totally agree. Wouldn't want someone fixing my heart that did not go to medical school 😳
College *was* a good idea for a long time. Back in the 1980s you get a good education for $600/semester -- that's what I remember writing out a check for. Adjusted for inflation that's about $1600. Good luck finding anything close to that these days, and for a vastly inferior education. This will be the true downfall of our society.
The only people I ever hear saying degrees are shit is people who aren't in the job market. My friend literally just got a job after being out of work for a year, and every job he went out for stonewalled him because he had no degree. Say what you want but for most markets - especially metro areas - you aren't even getting a call back with no degree.
I get what they're saying, and yes not everyone needs college but, 3 successful educated people arguing against college is kind of hilarious. Maher (Cornell), Weiss (Colombia), and Ryan (Bowling Green, and law degree from New Hampshire) who are doubtlessly where they are because of college.
Of course Bari Weiss, who had the opportunity to go to college, doesn’t want that opportunity for anyone else.
Are you surprised that elites that went to college want to prevent others from being able to go.
@terry boswell she is dismissive and slightly obnoxious in her way of speaking! And she's making big sweeping statements that can easily be taken apart, but there's no voice from the other side of the debate (a college lecturer, a Gender Studies student etc) - so it's a one-sided commentary! Grating!
@@drc4168 everyone who went for gender studies should sue the university. It is a scam not an education.
@@drc4168 Well, that’s because Bari Weiss is a profound idiot. And a grifter.
There’s a difference between going to college because you felt forced to do so and wanting others to not feel forced to do so by changing our culture around hiring practices
It is amazing how Mike Rowe and Tucker Carlson can talk about this for years together but it takes Bill Maher to get any acknowledgement of the problem.
I would add to the "put shop class back in schools" that they need to do better in public schools at math/science/reading. I don't care who you are if you can't read basic (insert your language here) then you can't read instructions on how to do things or learn new things. Yes, before I get chastised for it, not all professions have directions/written instructions. There are plenty of apprenticeships, and we have to get away from thinking "we're better than" someone without a college degree.
I worked for the Hamilton County (OH) Auditor for 5 years. 90% of the jobs within the county administration should not require any college. Most of those who retired during my time had their jobs since high school. It's clerk work, but it's 100% necessary.
There are positives to college. It does make you more rounded as a person. I love knowing tons of shit about the world and its history. I love knowledge bc knowledge is power. I'm just speaking for myself. I can't and won't go into an interview or meeting without knowing things. Both about what I'm interviewing for plus sounding like a box of rocks. Yes, college IS NOT for everyone. I get that. Trade schools are needed and excellent as well. Whatevet you choose to learn is great. More power to you . What is sad and disgusting today is the youth knowing nothing about anything and not even their job. Such as figuring exact change at Walmart or Target. 18-22 year olds can't do that anymore without a calculator or really their phone and their supervisors help. Knowledge is everywhere however most don't even try or seem to want to know. I can write forever on this subject but hopefully those out there may that read this get my gist. Pennsylvania unfortunately whereI live this is a HUGE issue and problem .
There are a lot of people that say the ‘kids’ now are lazy. I don’t think that’s it too much. I think they have never really been taught to learn and figure things out. I’d like to think I would be different if I was 20 right now but I’m not sure. I was born in 79 and came up without any real use of computers that was worthwhile and math tests it wasn’t allowed to use a calculator.
Now all you have to do is ask google and you have an answer. Which, likely, will become much easier with the chat GPT.
The youth isn’t forced to think and figure it out. They also seem to see nothing but social media people and wonder why they aren’t one in a million that makes it ‘big’ in that. And somehow feel entitled to success without hard…and sustained….work and continued ‘life’ learning.
@@nachoisme I'm an American living in Japan and teach at an international school here and the curriculum is pretty demanding. All the students learn programming, physics, calculus, statistics, we even have a business class. My daughter's school follows the Canadian curriculum and I have friend in Canada and check to see if his daughter (same age) is the learning the same. They are. Are American schools really that bad? I had heard like in Oregon that students had to pass a test to graduate and so now all the teachers simply teach the test.
@@rabbit251 if you want to get a great education someone certainly could but I think they have made it easier to ‘get by’ and graduate. I don’t teach or have kids so I may not be the one to judge best but I often hear exactly what you said that they teach for the test. As long as the score is high on a barrage for the students then all is well (I think).
Knowledge isn’t power. RELEVANT knowledge is power. The problem is that going to college gives you knowledge that is useless and not applicable in the job field. Sociology and psychology majors have no real world skills.
If we are going to onshore manufacturing to the USA for overseas, we need tool & die makers, pipe fitters, millwrights, steam fitters, iron workers, mechanics, carpenters, masons, electricians, steel workers, etc.
We need shop class or some version of shop in Junior High or High School to expose children to the trades and show them the alternative to college by learning a skilled trade.
In Germany there are 3 types of high schools that prepare students for work by the time they are 20 depending on where they fall in their earliest years of education. Not everyone belongs in university.
I love how Bill was cool with showing how AI could replace others, but got REALLY defensive when it was applied to him. Laugh it up Bill. Like you said, it's "at the doorstep"...
He got very insecure in a heartbeat.
K through 12 Job Ready schools. THAT's the ticket.
IKR, why do we need college to educate nurses, doctors, biologists, or chemists. Who needs college to educate electrical engineers, social workers or mechanical engineers. They can all just teach themselves. Then, Brainac Bari Weiss will definitely want to hire them.
They're talking about jobs like journalists. The journalism industry has been ruined by the whole needing a college degree thing.
No one is saying for people/jobs that need solid education should not get those degrees. The argument is firstly that they removed a LOT of real blue collar education in favor or pushing everyone towards college. They should bring back an hour minimum per day in high school for working towards apprenticeships. And anyone with a student loan should never be bailed out by tax money. It was there decision, good, bad or stupid to get a degree and that is also what is at issue, that a huge quantity of College degrees are absolutely pointless and absurd.
My last long term girlfriend had a 3 year degree as a Librarian. I learnt the Dewie decimal system in about 30 seconds when I was 5... what the hell are yo going to learn in 3 years at College to qualify as a librarian? She ended up after a year of job searching NOT getting a job, she went back to college and ended up with 3 degrees before she finally got a job doing Computer work.
HR managers with degrees Why? What can they not learn 100% in just a little bit of on the job training and work experience?
Then you get to Gender Studies which is pure delusion and make believe, cosmology and astrology and so on.
Then you have that college costs are doubling every 6 years. Why? Because most of it is a scam. Yes you need degrees for true career paths, but half the degrees are pathetic waste of time that are not needed in the jobs they end up in.
@@Ryan88881
Without question, college education will tend to produce far better journalists.
@@lilmsgs LOL what??? No it makes the whole industry classist and elitist and changes the style of journalism overall for the worse. Not to mention it would've barred potential legends like Hunter S Thompson.. You can't actually be serious
@@lilmsgs And for the record, even the journalists with college degrees with tell you this. It's a major problem that many people have brought up over the years especially recently.
I have been a nurse since 1965 and I've noticed since that time it has been well known that nursing is a 'less desired' career than others on today's job spectrum, so what do they do instead of making it more attractive to choose nursing for a career they go about making it harder and more expensive to learn to do a job a woman/man with a high school diploma (
Canadian - I wouldn't even dream of speaking about the US) can do and accomplish "quo vadis" in a very practical and economic way. Too easy??? 🤔🤭🤪🤨🤣
Bari Weiss seriously hit it right on the head when it comes to college
I have my bachelor's in nursing. I got the vocational training to help the sick. I also got the critical thinking to assess sickness better and learned how to examine research to recognize best care practices. Not all of my education was useful (algebra, organic chemistry, and interpretation into art). It was a waste of time, but classes like medical microbiology, sociology, medical statics, pharmacology, and many others. My college education also taught me life is gray and that there is never or an always statement that is true.
In 1962 in grade 7 all the boys took shop and the girls took home ec. Then in grade 8 a bunch of the boys, and oddly enough the 'alpha' types, decided they should learn basic Home Ec. instead of shop. Four of us presented the idea to the Principle who took the suggestion to Mrs. Avery. You might as well have tried to get Christmas moved to July! That was 'forward' thinking in education in those days. I hear she had a stroke! 🤣
True, trade schools need to make a come back. Ive worked with many people being a mechanic. Every person owed high 5 figures in college debt and they never used the college skills.
Do American schools not teach these kinds of practical classes anymore? My school didn't because we were small, private, and focused on college prep. I got a degree in Education, but during my internship at the local high school we were teaching non-college bound kids practical skills like balance your checkbook, make a budget (include savings), make life / death decisions. Even the dumbest students took the class seriously because they knew they would need to do this and we added things to make it interesting. Schools don't do this anymore?
@@ZMAN_420 hard to find apprenticeships in trades these days too, so to get into a trade to basically need a cert from a community college at least unless you get lucky and somehow get an apprenticeship without that
@@rabbit251 Good Lord girl what country do you come from? When I read your answer I immediately thought "if only"? The education I got as a kid was abysmally taught mostly by people who were only there to pay a mortgage and keep up with the neighbours. Intellectualism was for those who were too rich to even care about it. 🤭🧐🙄🤔🤣
@@dennischallinor8497 I will admit that today I'm a retired attorney living in Japan after working here for the last 20 years, but the high school in Nebraska I interned at had that class and I taught it. My supervising teaching was exceptional! (He mostly taught Social Studies but was also the football coach). The community and students loved this class. We also had Home Ec and shop classes.
I do meet teachers all the time, especially here in Japan, who shouldn't be teaching. (I think teachers that can't make in the US come to Japan). So with that I can commiserate. Some of my daughter's teachers are exceptionally bad, and we pay $20,000 / year for her school.
😆🤣😂Bill jumped at that one!
…Journalism IS a blue collar field. It’s a field hardly anyone can actually make money. I’ve been working professionally in the field for awhile and most people are making $30k or under. The reason why it’s a “regretted major” is because the pay is low, the hours are long, most places don’t grant OT or let you use PTO (if you’re given any to begin with) and you don’t get to see your family a lot and miss out on holidays.
Simplistic and anti-intellectual. College helps you develop an open-mind and critical thinking skills; most of your audience, Bill, is college-educated. College needs to adapt, for sure, and community college / vocation technical schools are always an option.
Education provides a certain degree of order and standard to the system which would otherwise succumb to chaos. It is important to take a balanced point of view on the issue. Having an underqualified generation entering the job market can cause incompetency and lower level of quality of goods and services.
Rather it would be better to reduce the intake in the fields of education where we don't have enough jobs and regulate the fees to the courses which can cause student debt.
Can't wait to drive on a bridge or walk into a building designed by a non-degreed engineer in the state of PA...
Great job at Telling the Truth. I went to CC my freshman year, and took 4 Real Estate classes. Instead of going back for my sophomore semester, l used my tuition $ to buy my 1st home while working as a waiter in 1980s Las Vegas. I bought, and sold property, and was a Millionaire by the time I turned 38. All w/I a Degree.
No one asked
So everyone should do that? Derp.
Everyone doing the Same Thing, that would be Idiotic. Just explore a path, of something you like to do, and give it a shot. No Degree Necessary!
Bari, you're a gem.
Three people who graduated from college say, no need for college for young people today?
No need to further one's education, in general or specific fields?
No need to start the practice of deep/critical thinking or studying or researching a given subject or field.
Brilliant!
Oh Bill, what would I do if I didn't have you in my life! 😁
I didn’t finish college because I couldn’t afford it and I can’t get a job better than waiting tables or being someone’s secretary. To say it’s not hard to get a good job that makes enough money to have any quality of life is elitist. You wouldn’t say that if you weren’t successful and uneducated, Bari
Now I understand why Tim Ryan didn't win the Senate election. Sadly.
I got a Dairy Science degree at South Dakota State University. 100% job placement and very decent money. Specialize in something food related. People are ALWAYS going to buy infant formula, put milk in their cold cereal, and throw a nice piece of cheese on their hamburger on the grill on July 4th. Also, food-especially junk foods like Doritos, that are coated with spray dried cheese powder-are absolutely Recession-Proof. What do people do when they are stressed about life and their finances? They EAT!!!!
I agree they shouldn’t push college and universities as the only path. But I will say this, most of my friends who have not gone to college always seemed. I’ll be a lot less knowledgeable and well rounded outside their skills, but that’s just my experience.
Graduated from college in 2000 and going to college was the worst thing I ever did. It became nothing more than an overrated, worthless, useless piece of paper.
I agree with congressman Tim Ryan that we need the shop classes back.
Went straight to work after high school. When all my peers graduated college, I had a 4 year head start on them. I was hired as an engineering manager by my mid 20's without a degree. The thinking was that they wanted someone who could do things leading the engineers that had degrees.
might want to get a degree later on to protect yourself from layoffs, often times a person climbs the ladder and management uses their lack of a degree as a way to replace them with someone younger and less money
@@amandafuriasse4683 thanks for the advice, but I retired in my early 40's. Now I travel and visit with my friends and family all over the world.
Show me how many jobs still exist that pay well enough without a college education. In the 50s and 60s when I was a kid, I grew up in an upper middle class neighborhood, and my parents bought our house brand new, and we were the first family to live there. My parents were college educated, and they both worked, but a lot of the people in our neighborhood in those new homes weren't college graduates, and a lot of the women were housewives. There were truck drivers, mechanics, plumbers, electricians, machinists, salesmen, etc. From the end if WWII until the "Reagan revolution", people without a college education could get a good paying job, and could afford to buy a new home, a new car, take the family on vacation, send the kids to college, and save for retirement, which resulted in a flourishing economy, and exponentially expanded the middle class, the expansion of, and great migration to, the suburbs, and resulted in decades of unparalleled economic and technological advancements. Then came the Reagan era, where the agenda of all the gains going to the top, and none to the workers, began, with less income equality and workers rights all the time, where maximizing profits became the only thing that matters, no matter what the cost to workers and consumers. Our system is broken beyond repair, and is unsustainable, until we return to that system of shared prosperity for all.
Wow. Sometimes Bill Maher really surprises me. I get it when he criticizes a gender studies degree but who do you hire if you want to design a high voltage smart grid system? An electrical engineer with a degree or any Tom, Dick and Harry from the street? To design anything sophisticated (or doing science in general) requires a 4 year degree. You need well funded labs which are otherwise inaccessible if you abandon a degree. You need large endowments to realize the crazy research projects that end up changing the world (like ChatGPT which he mentions). A very ill informed take on the subject. Harrowing!
This. Also, he criticises what he doesn't fully understand, or what he's had the good luck to have obtained already!
@terry boswell No they just feel personally attacked.
As a proud college dropout I’ve been saying for a long time: a heck of a lot of people would be much better served going to a TRADE SCHOOL than a 4 year college. I didn’t have the chops to become an electrical engineer, but I bet you I could have been a pretty good electrician or automotive technician. If we’re going to forgive debt for anybody I say we should start with the trades long before we get to the philosophy and art history majors!
If I wanted to see clowns like Bari Weiss and Tim Ryan, I'd get tickets to the circus.
Tell me you have a worthless degree without telling me.
I come from a family where going to University was automatic...We are Canadians. I don't know whether that matters.
We are 6 professionals a Dentist, Lawyer ,Judge, Phd Scientist, Doctor and retired Civil servant.
Going to school a real school is the right thing to do.Period!
Is Bari Weiss really under the impression that she would still be in her same position had she not gone to Columbia?
Exactly
If I understand her point, she thinks her education doesn’t really help her write articles.
I so resent this. My undergrad is in General Studies. I am so glad that I have it.
I repaid my student loan, my car loans, my home loan. It’s called being an adult and reading what you agree to.
Education is not a racket, Bill! The more education, the better.
When Ryan says "Let's bring back shop class", I couldn't agree more. Also home economics and civics. If I want to be a CT scan technician at a hospital or a heavy equipment operator, it can be easily be done for at least 2 years after high school at a school under university. Don't need a bachelor's for those.
erm that's what community colleges teach, 1 and 2 years programs which you can then expand into a bachelor degree
Huge shortage of nurses, doctors and medical technicians right now.
Shop class is a waste of time.
@@Youtoober6947 Shop class doesn't have to be wood and saws. Mash it all together with technology. Computer lab/3d printing/electronics repair etc
@@WTFisthis327 a lot of these public schools barely have the funds to retain quality staff let alone set up labs with expensive electronics
I’m not against these type of classes but I can see the rationale for getting rid of them
I'm an Engineer. I interview 2-3 people a week in my field. I don't care about their degree, publications, experience. All I care about and enquire through my questions is their ability to listen, learn and work as a team.
i used to work for a gm supplier and when the engineers would come down to fix a problem they would say we need to try this and that to see if it worked. i would tell him sir we do all that already. this is a deeper issue. he would make us do it anyways and then say okay, your down here in the trenches all day what do you think would work. we would shoot an idea and bam, fixed. we can' t make certain calls because we didn't go to college so if an engineer breaks it it's okay but not us. that's when i started saying, you need to go to college in order to make stupid decisions lol. i can't wait for AI to take over so whiny people like him can complain because we'll still need certain jobs just no where near as many.
I’m currently surrounded by master students in engineering and I am simply not impressed by the intellect of many of them. I’m sorry to say that, as they are nice people, but they are not smart. And yet, this silly degree already lines them up for a great set of jobs without further questions.
When I was in high school, it would never have occurred to me to not go to college. I was in the harder classes. The expectation by everyone was for me to go. So I went.
One of the most enlightening classes that I took was logic. Not because of the curriculum but because of the class. There were two distinct groups of students. The people who understood the concepts intuitively and those who did not.
I would say, at the very least, STEM degrees have true value.
economic value at least.
For now, maybe. But the knowledge gained through some of those programs dates very quickly. And employment trends can shift dramatically. Look at what's happening in tech, for example.