Aptera's Secret to 1,000 Mile Range
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- Опубликовано: 10 сен 2024
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Yet another example of Aptera pursuing an intelligently elegant solution for an engineering problem. If they had gone with same size cells the distribution of those cells and their battery packs could introduce weight bias issues. This way not only is the packaging simplified but the weight bias remains consistent across the chassis for all four battery packs. It has been a delight watching the design of this vehicle evolve. FYI I am an invenstor and Launch Edition reservation holder.
As mentioned above, the latest battery pack illustrations show the 250 mile battery at 23kWh, 400 mile at 45kWh (as you stated), 600 mile range at 66kWh, and the 1000 mile at 99kWh. Also the capacity is usually listed as maximum and usable. With the rest of the capacity unavailable except as a charge buffer and emergency reserve. So the Launch Edition will have a 45kWh battery pack, 40kWh usable. Which should get us something close to 400 miles of range under optimal conditions. Not counting the added charge coming from the solar cells. Think about it though. If you "only" got 25 added miles of range added each day from solar, and "only" got 300 miles from the battery, that still means that you could potentially travel over 1,000 miles in a month without plugging in to charge!
This is what excellent engineering looks like... applying multiple duty to as many parts as possible, reducing part counts whenever possible, simplify as much as possible, etc. Great work Aptera, it's going to pay off!! Thanks for the top notch content Drew!
It maybe that a battery maker can adapt 2170 battery lines to longer cells for a lot less money then creating lines for larger diameters.
This is a pretty clever way to keep the voltage and wiring the same and just increase the kWh by increasing the cell size.
Hi , Drew, just came back from a recent visit at Aptera. Their diagrams/illustrations showing their production intent packs showed the smallest pack at 23KWH.. in my video shown on Drive the lightenings video about Aptera’s battery you can see the illustrations as well as Chris McCammon easily lifting a module.
its 26kwh, 23kwh x 10 miles per kilowatt=230, you telling me they are getting more than 10kw per mile? ruclips.net/video/8fZpcPheEjI/видео.html
So now I'm wondering if the 23kWh Aptera will have a range closer to 200 miles, or is the efficiency better enough with the lighter pack that it can still do 250? They have hinted that they expect the lighter version to exceed 10 miles per kWh.
One thing I have noticed about Aptera info and videos over time is that often the information conflicts. The reason is that Aptera's design is not static. It is constantly evolving. While waiting for major funding to begin production, Aptera has used this time to further R&D their already industry leading design efficiency, like the battery pack. Glad I pre-ordered one.
I am so excited for this freaking car. I have a bit of a unique case as I do need more range than the regular person. I am regularly driving 250+ miles a day for work so a Bolt wouldn't work for me and a Tesla still wouldn't be enough range for some of my trips. I wish that the standard model of the Aptera was the 600 mile range one but I will settle for the 400 mile range and potentially upgrade after a few years.
It's not a car
@@coolranch1660 I don't care.
@@billsmith5960 Bill, I am an investor. NO One should invest in Aptera without doing their due diligence, which includes reading the SEC reports. Every one has a going concern warning, which means that at this stage there is a likelihood that the entire investment could be lost. You could get yourself in trouble giving investment advice - even tongue in cheek.
I have invested for the same reason I give to charities - because I consider the work they are doing to be vital to our future. There may be a return, but that is not the primary reason I have invested.
I saw a recent video with the Aptera battery illustrated and it showed the 250 mile battery at 23Kwh, 400 mile at 45Kwh like you stated, 600 mile range at 66Kwh, and the 1000 mile at 99Kwh.
Because the longer range version will be heavier I'm guessing you'll need more like 3 times the battery compared to the 400 mile version so that would be more like 135 kWh not 99. That would be a weight penalty compared to the 400 of 1200 lbs more so it's not insignificant. Even if 99 kWh works, it will weight at least 700 lbs more so it's hard to work out that a 700 lb heavier Aptera will still get 10 miles per kWh so it will be interesting to see how it all works out. I think there will be diminishing returns for extra battery and range because with more weight in the battery, the suspension will need to be beefed up as well, and perhaps the body structure.
@@darinmiller1916 An employee lifted an entire battery pack by himself. They are not all that heavy.
@@mpetty9947 That was a module, not the whole pack. There are, I think, eight of those modules in the 400 mile Aptera. (maybe only six?). In the 1000 mile Aptera each module would be 70% taller.
Thank you for your faith in Aptera, glad you are onboard.
The other item that those of us had speculated at AOC was that a new body might be needed to hold more 2170's to properly distribute the weight to all 3 wheels. This taller battery should, I think, keep the balance the same. So no reengineering, though one should test the added weight to the overall system. Also the original vehicle design for release was FWD. And that the AWD version would reduce the distance by 10% or more was our assumption. But Elaphe redesigned the hub motor to be more efficient in the 0-20 mph range to match the very high efficiency above that till about 65 mph. They did that by reducing the acceleration for the AWD to under 4 seconds 0-60 rather than 3.5 seconds. These in hub motors are more efficient than any linkage motor. They are the main source of heat, not the batteries for the reasons you stated, light and the most aerodynamic [add less friction with 3 wheels]. This cold make the FWD get 440 miles of range for $2500 less. While the 4000 mile pack is 45kWh the usable is 42kWh [1 more than originally stated]. So more like 420 miles than 440. with the FWD getting over 460. This really pushes the narrative that it could be 350 miles mpge.
AOC also did an estimate of battery life the EVE energy cells we believed would be used. Its worth a look and when you think in terms of cycle life and treating it like you would a 'Tesla and charge from 20% lows to 80% highs the life cycle of the pack is pretty large. And gets longer the bigger the pack. I hope by the time you get yours they have doubled the charging rate. If they get the charger to be able to handle 60 W DC fast charge the per hour charge rate in the beginning should be close to 600 miles. Perfect for the 1000 mile pack. But if they can double that, or as Steve thinks they can get to 100 W DC according to McMannis. After the Launch edition at some point. By the time you get yours it might be able to do that in about 36 minutes? You might only have to stop and charge every other day of a long trip? Where ICE car would every day. Now you get very close to the same amount of time used to refill. The recent announcement of Hilton putting in up to 10 level 2 of Teslas new charger per hotel. You could over night in 8 hours add 456 miles probably for less cost, or 570 in 10 hours. If its sunny the solar cells could make it 600 while you drive. And this is where the Aptera leaves the ICE car in the dust.
aptera look likes an aerofoil, looks like it'd take off at highway speeds. I love it.
If it had pop-out wings, it probably would. Hey, maybe that could be a new variant model.
Over the years Aptera has become so well thought out and engineered, not only from the design standpoint, but also for efficient and cost effective manufacturing thanks to Sandy Munro.
It would be interesting to also get an information about the cell counts in each pack, just to get the math right.
I'm just happy they're working with Munro. That gives me confidence.
I'm long in TSLA but sold a chunk to invest in APTERA. Thanks for your coverage!
It's really innovative what they're doing with the larger battery packs. By utilizing taller cells, it keeps things simple, and reduces production cost. First principles thinking here. I'm really excited to see the validation of production vehicles in the coming months. Part of that validation testing should be done up in the mountains where they can do some driving in deep snow. That trace amount of snow they encountered in Europe just doesn't cut it. 😂😂😂
I live in Iowa and will probably have an early model. I will report on my experience. Based on my present Gen 1 Honda Insight, I am not worried. (the rear wheels on this vehicle do not follow in the track of the front)
@@billsmith5960 It sounds as though you have never driven in snow in anything the way you write.
First of all, if you expect to be driving where you encounter snow, there will be a large advantage in ordering AWD, and not just because it is more fun
The wheel motors can sense wheel slip and adjust torque on each driven wheel within about 2.5" of wheel travel - significantly better than most other vehicles on the road. I already know that there are snow tires, including studded tires that fit Aptera.
Those with the foresight to use proper snow tires and adjust for conditions will have few problems - especially compared to other "economy" offerings on the market.
@@billsmith5960 This just shows you have a vivid imagination. I have almost 1/2 a million miles on motorcycles - more than I would like in snow. And I have ridden in an Aptera prototype which is more than you can say. I already know that it will do better than my present vehicle, from actual experience. Your imagination is leading you astray.
@@billsmith5960 I am glad to hear that you are a motorcyclist. Riding in the third world gives a much more positive view of the world than one gets staying home. Perhaps you know Ted Simon? He is a friend.
My first bike was an original 1942 Indian Scout that I got when I lived in central Iran.
As far as driving a production model, that IS too much to ask before the production models are finished and shipping. That is coming - the first production body parts are being produced now. After the validation phase, vehicles will be shipping in the second half of next year if all goes well.
I tried to find out what the 2170 canister is made of. I found one reference to it being Aluminum. If so I'd expect end cooling would work just fine on the long cells.
Not that I have any expertise in tje matter but Aptera is DC Fast charging at 40kW to 60kW. That is low relative to the newer EV coming out that need much larger batteries to achieve the same range.. Cooling during Fast Chargingis is probably the most demanding task of the cooling system. Aptera's lower DC Fast charging rate may make end plate cooling adequate.
My only concern is if the cooling will work as well. If they are cooling the cells from the top and bottom, maybe there is less concern, but I think they are cooling from the bottom. I hope they simulated that.
They are running a radiator and skin cooling and cooling the pack top and bottom. The air for the radiator and skin cooling comes in from the front cowling just under the windshield wipers.
Taller cells will also not be as stressed since they can spread that heat out over far more material.
I feel better that they are cooling from top and bottom. The taller cells will still be a little warmer in the center if the cooling rate is held constant. I imagine Aptera has designed the cooling system for the worst-case 1000-mile cell to keep things simple to build. I also noticed in the CAD drawings that they have to stack additional aluminum channels around the taller packs, adding more weight. The additional channels seemed to be overkill structurally and adding weight.
I can see both sides in the discussion between you and @wizzyno1566. I believe their point is that most Americans like pickup trucks and don't care about efficiency. In my opinion it's hard to say if there is enough demand based on the current reservations, since I don't know how many cars Aptera needs to sell to be profitable longterm. I can also see your point. Why watch videos about companies just to 'hate' on them, and clearly there is demand for Aptera. I hope Aptera will succeed in the end. They certainly have an innovative design.
@@TailosiveEV , there are many who take optimization in technology commerce for granted, thinking that's how it's supposed to be. But they either forget or don't know that the reason many cars, phones, and airplanes look alike is because their parent companies have had the same objectives to meet. Change the objective and the design must follow, but people aren't educated to it. So they react like something is wrong.
I'm in a part of town that loves their lifted trucks with US flags in them, there are a few EVs, but I'm sure driving Aptera here would get strange looks and comments. Wizzy's point on "silly" shape was superficial and petty, but not far-fetched. Either he's had to ensure ridicule by ignorant people for his choices, or he was bully doing it to others. It comes back to the idea of "supposed to be" in relation to why transportation looks the way they do.
There is no "have to" or "supposed to" in engineering, it only comes down to the objective.
@@TailosiveEV A 2 year production backlog isn't because the number of customers are so high like a Model 3, it's because they are a startup and can't produce in large numbers. Tesla can sell sedans even though the US loves pickups because sedans also are still highly popular, just less so than pickups. Aptera is more similar to European city cars in that it's comparatively a weirdmobile without good passenger capacity. Almost every automaker don't sell their small vehicles here because by and large, Americans do not want them (unfortunately). So i think that's where the concern for Aptera's ability to be profitable and successful here comes from. I think they'll do ok and be a nice little niche but i really will be surprised if they become some big success and change American car buying habits. People outside the enthusiast space are going to have a hard time being convinced to go Aptera, regardless of the solar/range benefits. Americans will hold onto things that are inferior or less efficient because it's familiar and safe/boring and i think that's a big uphill battle Aptera will have when trying to break out past the enthusiast niche. That's not me hating, i agree there's a market for Aptera and people who want to drive around for free, it's just not big and i don't think a ton of people will give up 4 seater sedans because most Americans don't like change/new things. Tesla pulled it off because they made a normal sedan that happened to be electric and fast. If they had started with an Aptera like car, they wouldn't be the success they are today. That's just how things look right now to me.
@@VMYeahVN Americans are starting to experience the effects of global warming on a more frequent and devastating basis. They will learn that Aptera can be a significant part of the solution. This is an issue that is starting to get peoples' attention.
Aptera is amazingly efficient
I can't find any mention of the 2190 and 21120 batteries anywhere on the internet. Do they exist yet, and will they delay delivery of the 600-mile and 1000-mile versions? 600-mile reservation holder here.
They don't exist yet, but apparently were already in the battery companies' plans before Aptera designed the larger packs to use them.
Very interesting. 👍
Could the 2170 batteries be stacked to be a 21140 size?
At first a 1000 mile range seems very cool but I think it’s too big for a production. The bigger the battery, the less miles per kWh. I could see a couple being produced just to prove the concept though.
Same sized pack and same diameter as was described in the video only, perhaps, a slightly taller pack so the pack production is much the same as the 400 mi variant just a slightly taller cell.
But compared to the 400 mile version, the 1000 mile range version will need more than 2.5 times as much battery storage. Probably on the order of 3 times the 400 mile battery pack due to the less miles per kWh it will go with the extra weight.@@DanielLucas-ly5ig
Yes aero is and keeping that same sized pack for all battery sizes keeps the .13 drag coefficient. I can't wait for validation to be complete so we can verify these numbers but super excited for this vehicle and thank you to @Airman749 for getting that video for the drive the lighting channel.
Just image driving in winter at 100 miles per hour and that 1000 mile range instantly becomes 500 miles. I think it has plenty of uses.
@@Winnetou17 Yeah that's insane! I am on the waitlist for the 400 mile range launch edition and THAT has more range than I'll typically use.... except when I drive it home to Reno Nevada from San Diego.... because Nevada only allows Tesla to be direct to consumer. That's OK taking the train down to San Clemente and driving back was always the plan but as it stands now I have to do that.... twist my arm ha ha ha.
I would have .ine modified to have two 21120 baterries installed.
I have given up on production and pricing from aptera, had them return my deposit. I think by the time they get to production, it will cost about the same as a model 3. If it ever reaches production, as their finances seem really tight.
It will cost even more...
Finances ARE tight - just as they were for Tesla. It is clear that Aptera is doing a better job of managing their financing. The vehicle is directed at a much smaller niche than the Model 3 can fill, but also a much larger one than the original Tesla Roadster at 1/3 the price with similar acceleration and much smaller cost of ownership.
10wh/mile is theoretical, even if they can get that its a constantly varying value, how would they even know what it is until they build the prototype and test it? They have never released any data from the earlier builds, so I guess your trusting these guys...steve fambro just told fully charged show they will start production jan next year.......that is flat out untrue...we all know that, he knows it , so why say it........because.........it brings the money in.......
1,000 miles... why? Probably, the common use for this vehicle would be driving 20 or 30 miles to work tops on average. Great local driver. It probably doesn't have the comfort level of a typical sedan. I love the concept and can't wait to see them being produced... but a 1,000 mile range for a car you can easily charge at home . Keep it simple and inexpensive.
By the time the 99 kWh battery packs are available, perhaps V2G tech will be available, which could be worth the price for areas with unstable grid power.
Who is paying to develop these taller battery’s? It’s not likely any other car company will join in this endeavor
I actually think this might be a bad plan. The simplicity is great, if they can get the cells. But using an uncommon cell size means less reliability and much higher cost since the tooling will be custom and not scale (unless others pick it up)
Do you care to mention at what average speed you will get the 1000 mile range? according to chat gpt, this range will be achieved at 20-28 mph.
My biggest concern with aptera is if you have a tire blowout it seems looking at the design that in a rear tire blowout the pan it the back will get majorly roughed up as well as the covers on the front tires in a front blowout....I haven't heard anything on this
Look more closely at an Aptera profile pic. Even with the Aptera riding on all its rims, the body won't touch the ground, at least on a smooth surface.
Chris M. stated that the wheel pants won't scrape if there is a flat. See 29:17 in the recent 'Aptera EXCLUSIVE Interview...' on the Drive the Lightning channel. Might not be the same as a "blowout", but in decades of driving and riding in vehicles I've never experienced a "blowout". I'd be more concerned about veering into oncoming traffic (in any 2, 3 or 4-wheeled vehicle) under such "blowout" event, rather than cosmetic vehicle damage.
Well looking at the pics of the car, if a front wheel has a complete blow out, the car is going to lean at an angle and the outside of the flap is gonna scrape.....but I'm not an engineer so I hope I'm wrong
This just doesn't make logical sense. The taller cells do not increase the volume by nearly the amount of increased energy kwh needed. They must be banking on new chemistries to help but this math seems odd. For the 1000 mile this needs to be over 2.5x the energy based on miles, 2.2x based on stated kwh with just 1.7x the cell height. The 1000 mile is likely to not achieve its target range outside of the NEDC (china - Not Even Damn Close) loop unless they have some extra advantage (or if the launch edition is secretly 470 miles of range).
If they can achieve the stated battery capacities in KWH in each pack, keep extra weight in the pack to a bare minimum, and cell weight is scales 5% lighter by volume with the increases (less end cap weight) then I calculated the potential range of each model (with various educated assumptions) at 55mph as 248, 474, 699, and 987. Basically the middle models will likely over deliver substantially and the smallest and largest packs will struggle to hit planned ranges ranges; this makes logical sense when you figure the vehicle will be more efficient if lighter and look at the pack kwh vs range expectations.
Edit: At 3:40 these are new pack sized compared to the 23, 45, 66, and 99 we have seen before that I used above. With the numbers you gave it really seems like the launch edition will be WAY over the stated range all else being equal.
You kiss their ass not sure why. Bro of course they can 1000 miles. Their cars weight 200 pound lol
Why nobody ask about Europa like ccs that the thing I am interested in
Engineering is great, eventually you have to make something
I don't think this is a positive. Coming out with an entirely new cell design is huge complexity. The available tooling and manufacturing aren't able to produce these cells. To me, this is a very concerning development that is going to delay the release of Aptera even more. I have one on preorder so I do have skin in the game on it, I like the vehicle. I would have preferred they use standard cells for V1 and look at cell optimization for later versions.
Keep in mind that by the time we hear about it, executive decisions were made, contracts signed, process began and first results already created approval to continue. We're well past the point of concern.
@@TailosiveEVokay, so you are all for simplicity... but now you are defending Aptera using different cells for different ranges just for the sake of getting unnecessary high range like 600 or 1000 miles while also saying in your Tesla videos that charging curve and infrastructure is more important than range. Make your mind and decide because you are countering yourself.
Elon Buy Aptera Already what you waiting for going to Mars first ?
I'd like Aptera to last long on their own feet for a while. I feel if Elon Musk bought Aptera, he will liquidate the company and apply its multi-axis bendable solar cells to Tesla's existing EVs.
Musk has expressed ample contempt for "science project weirdmobiles". When asked about solar on EVs he is dismissive. When asked about Aptera, he made it clear that he does not find Aptera interesting enough to pay attention to it.
He's not interested in any product that requires original thinking from its customers. That's why all of Tesla's vehicles so far looked utterly conventional. We'll see how it goes with that truck of theirs.
I'll shout this on every Aptera video - its a science experiment!
Have you met Americans? How do you think they'll buy this aerofoil? Where will they fit the ginormous stuff they hauled from costco for 499.97$? They NEED a Cadillac IQ, of course.
If left our in the sun for a full day, it adds a fantastic 30 additional miles? Over heats going up a small hill? Bankrupt and a scam I say!
It made it numerous times up that hill without the motors being connected to the cooling system, while the film crew was taking "b" roll. It was only after the journalist took the wheel for the final run that it finally overheated.
@@robertkirchner7981morors not connected to cooling circuit when going to nation wide TV is incompetence
Sanother Elio. All talk no production tesla will make a hundred thousand cybertrucks before these guys make 1 car.
@@billsmith5960 Elio was a scam. Never produced any cars. Surprised Trump wasn't involved.
@@billsmith5960 I did due diligence on the Elio, which quickly failed when I found out the motor they were planning didn't (and wouldn't) exist. I applied the same process to Aptera, including talking with the company and their partners, and they passed inspection. Elio was never going to go anywhere. Both Steve and Chris have run successful companies. Chris took the last company he cofounded public as CEO. Vast difference.