As an avid reader of the Honorverse novels it almost sounds weird hearing the phrase “line of battle” having got used to the phrase “Wall of Battle” from that series. Still this video shows how the line approach could be modified in future releases of The Sojourn.
There's so much Honorverse parallel with The Sojourn, it's one of the things I love about both series. I just wish there was enough visual media of the Honorverse for it to feature on Spacedock, it's EXACTLY the kind of mostly- realistic science fiction discussed here.
As fellow Honorverse enjoyers, have you guys heard of TRMN? If not, or you have and don't have a current chapter, the HMS Interloper (SD-460) would be honored to have you (we're a virtual chapter in 2nd Fleet so members can be from anywhere).
He mentioned this possibility on the Z axis, around 1:20, but it is not clear if this option is ever used. Staggering on the other axis will be needed because of the impossibly long distances in space. Instead of a straigth line, something like a horseshoe to give the shots near identicall ranges to provide the maximum possible concentration of firepower delivered at the same time.
Using the staggered approach when creating the lines could help in preventing an enemy ship from running the line as the window for doing damage would be smaller.
@@carloshenriquezimmer7543 Depending how good their computers are and well they coordinate across the formation you could synchronize firing for time-on-target, and adjust dynamically when the target moves or changes. Though this wouldn't guarantee perfect accuracy, even at a light-second engagement range a lot can happen while your shots are en route.
@@Huntress236 me too, he was correct on this, it is navy in space, I love it even more than my grimdark cathedrals firing broadsides in speeehhhss :) Hope it will not develop in to binge watching or some such nastiness. Cheers! +][+
Stagger the ships in the line/wall on all axes, which would prevent enfilades and allow individual ships to displace. Also roll each ship about 30-45 degrees relative to the enemy, that would allow them to also bring one of the sets of turrets on the far side to bear by firing over their own superstructure, increasing the fleet's total firepower by fifty percent.
something that just dawned on me, those Centrum ships guns on the far side could be kept on standby in case targets try to flee "above" or "below" them or if they can roll fast enough the ships could roll to bring those guns to bare for a salvo then rock the other way to do the same. that idea makes me think that the best "ship of the line" design would be to simply bring the ship into a spin, firing the guns in turn much like a Gatling gun does except pointing outward.
Funny enough, Resurrected Starships did a video on Mon Cal cruisers, and the cigar-shaped Home One type was shown rolling in order to maximize turret use. 😆
The line of battle have a great benefits for allowing the ships to use their maximum broadside attack. Though I think it would be better if the line was in staggered pattern instead of a straight line since space is basically 3D. The other thing is why wouldn’t ships of the line have their turrets arranged in centerline instead of wing mounted as they are? The current layout means that half of the turrets are basically unusable during the broadside, if they are in centerline, you could achieve the same broadside with less number of turrets to carry. Also, I kinda find it odd that many sci fi treat space battles like a naval battle by having their fleet with went broadside or facing each other head on but why haven’t anyone try to attack enemy fleet from what would be from enemy’s above and below vectors? (I know there’s no real up or down in space but you get what I mean).
“Okay, what if we stacked like two or three lines of Battle to further concentrate broadside and forward firepower?” “Stop being preposterous Lieutenant Harrington.”
The thumbnail of the Gate Transits and Gaterunning video has a pirate ship that looks like one of these, probably captured and modified. Single-engined, with at least two twin barreled swivel gun turrets and one (probably a second on the other side) single barreled ship-to-ship grade coilgun turret, shape a bit like a corvette class from the expanse, with some added scaffolding and something that looks like folding solar panels (maybe extra lower temp radiators, idk) most likely added by the pirates.
Considering that space is a 3D battlespace, I would imagine that the line of battle tactic would translate into space as a "wall" (i.e. multiple parallel lines stack atop one another) rather than single lines. Also, the fast escort craft leaving the line to engage the enemies at a distance are going to seriously hamper the line's firepower due to trying to avoid friendly fire incidents. This proposed tactic is more a threat to the lines security and effectiveness than anything else.
The Sojourn takes the bar that was set by Firefly, The Expanse, Battlestar Galactica, Cowboy Bebop (1998-1999), and many more to a new height that I really thought I'd never see in my lifetime. If the series were to be interpreted into a theatrical release I'd start queuing at the theater days ahead of time for the first showing. Very much looking forward to season 2!
So why don't the vessels tilt themselves a few degrees while in the line? Seems like any vessel roughly in the shape of a parallelogram could fire turreted guns from 3 of its 4 sides. In the artwork at 3:44 you can even see that the slightest list would allow those port dorsal guns to fire. I haven't listened to the audiodrama so perhaps this is already addressed there and the artwork doesn't perfectly accurately portray combat.
yeah this all makes me think of the battle of Trafalgar during the Napoleonic Wars. British Admiral Nelson destroyed the French and Spanish Fleets by rushing his ships into the Enemy Battle Line and opened up point-blank broadsides on the prows and sterns of each adjacent ship. that tactic more or less ruined the concept of the battle line for naval doctrine especially when combined with ever advancing ballistics technology. honestly seeing such archaic tactics in a Sci-Fi setting is surprising and makes me wonder just how such a tactic can develop in a space navy.
I thoroughly enjoyed today's lore vid! I honestly questioned early on how CDF ships weren't risking torching each otherwith their drive plumes, but that was addressed rather quickly.
My only issue is that large ships of the line are not slow, they're just not agile. If the fleets don't have FTL travel, then both fleets could be accelerating for long distances before the fleets exchange fire. They may ultimately just end up zipping past each other.
Waving after another driver gives way gets so tedious in some parts, especially west country, that it has evolved into just raising one finger from the steering wheel to say thanks 😂
It sounds a bit like creating a large artillary battery and using the smaller ships to make up for the fact they don't terrain to slow the other side down.
I like this bit of Lore. While it is a little silly in some regards. It does have some air of real life to it. And it does take some inspiration from IRL situations. Like the Battle of Tsushima in 1904 in our own history. A classic show of old mindsets clashing with modern war reality.
@@JoaoSoares-rs6ec that's not crossing the T. Crossing the T is managing to have your entire line of battle's broadsides raking the enemy line from the front or rear of their formation.
Oh, so that's where the "ship of the line" gets the name! I hadn't even thought about there being a specific strategy/formation behind it, my brain was happy thinking it's a warship "for the front lines".
Bringing age of sails tactics to space ain't very good idea, the ships themselves have a quite regressive design with turrets being placed in such a way that only half at a time can't fire in one particular direction, even before HMS dreadnought most ships already started placing their main guns in the middle to allow them to fire in both left, right and front, all guns not just half.
I was going to say something stupid for my next commitment on a Sojourn video but I can't remember what it was so I'm going to post this comment instead explaining that because if it isn't already clear to those who've seen me comment here before I'm just commenting to boost engagement for this channel
"Line of Battle" tactics from the Age of Sail, designed for two-dimensional naval warfare, face challenges when adapted to the three-dimensional environment of space combat. Spacecraft can maneuvre and be attacked from multiple directions, necessitating formations that allow for omnidirectional defence and flexible repositioning. Therefore, while traditional line formations can offer focused fire and simpler command structures, they would likely require significant modifications to be effective in space.
That spotify deal is pretty dumb. Why do they offer a family plan, when they punish the customers? What if they share the costs. This is almost aggressively unfair and stupid.
So, how did these tactics come to exists? Who did they fight before the Frontier Union? There was a mention that "they hadn't fought a war in a 100 years", so against whom was that?
I can get your books several ways except the one I want. Your website selling the files would suit me. Then I own them like owning a book in the old days.
![Lil Uzi Vert - Chill Bae [Official Music Video]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/D7F42F_JM3U/mqdefault.jpg)
Get #TheSojourn here: www.thesojournaudiodrama.com/
"All our turrets are reloading, should we try dodging?"
"No, stupid. It's their turn."
"Turrets are reloading? *RAMMING SPEED!!!"*
@@weldonwin”Perhaps today is a good day to die” -Lieutenant Worf
@@chuckbuck5002 *"FOR THE EMPEROR! FLY ME CLOSER! I WANT TO HIT THEM WITH MY SWORD!!!"*
just cause we are at war doesnt mean we cant be civil!
@@weldonwinsomeone decided to go Last Exile XD
As an avid reader of the Honorverse novels it almost sounds weird hearing the phrase “line of battle” having got used to the phrase “Wall of Battle” from that series. Still this video shows how the line approach could be modified in future releases of The Sojourn.
There's so much Honorverse parallel with The Sojourn, it's one of the things I love about both series. I just wish there was enough visual media of the Honorverse for it to feature on Spacedock, it's EXACTLY the kind of mostly- realistic science fiction discussed here.
As fellow Honorverse enjoyers, have you guys heard of TRMN? If not, or you have and don't have a current chapter, the HMS Interloper (SD-460) would be honored to have you (we're a virtual chapter in 2nd Fleet so members can be from anywhere).
As another avid reader of the Honorverse, I can agree with the line of battle vs wall of battle. It still feels weird for me
@@RvnKnightTRMN? Can't say I have
This is what I came here to say. Always glad to find HV fans. In fact, I'm re-reading 'Ashes of Victory' right now.
Tbh line of battle should be staggered (on X, Y and Z axis), so vessels can accelerate forward at a moment's notice without fear of collission.
That or multiple lines on the z axis
He mentioned this possibility on the Z axis, around 1:20, but it is not clear if this option is ever used.
Staggering on the other axis will be needed because of the impossibly long distances in space.
Instead of a straigth line, something like a horseshoe to give the shots near identicall ranges to provide the maximum possible concentration of firepower delivered at the same time.
Using the staggered approach when creating the lines could help in preventing an enemy ship from running the line as the window for doing damage would be smaller.
@@carloshenriquezimmer7543 Depending how good their computers are and well they coordinate across the formation you could synchronize firing for time-on-target, and adjust dynamically when the target moves or changes. Though this wouldn't guarantee perfect accuracy, even at a light-second engagement range a lot can happen while your shots are en route.
Wow. I always knew a semi-circle was the strongest formation! @@carloshenriquezimmer7543
I love how detailed this is. Y'all absolutely should get Drachinifel involved! Hed love this.
Hear, hear!
He sent me here ...
@@titanscerw saw his vid today? Love that The Sojourn actually sponsored him
@@Huntress236 me too, he was correct on this, it is navy in space, I love it even more than my grimdark cathedrals firing broadsides in speeehhhss :)
Hope it will not develop in to binge watching or some such nastiness.
Cheers!
+][+
Stagger the ships in the line/wall on all axes, which would prevent enfilades and allow individual ships to displace. Also roll each ship about 30-45 degrees relative to the enemy, that would allow them to also bring one of the sets of turrets on the far side to bear by firing over their own superstructure, increasing the fleet's total firepower by fifty percent.
If they just updated the Line of Battle to 3D space with the Staggered Square of Battle, a lot of the vulnerabilities of the formation can be fixed.
"Staggered Square"... so a rhomboid?
This suggestion has caused five different CDF Flag Officers to fall to apoplexy.
@@GabrielGABFonseca "My doctrine!" they yell out before collapsing on a fainting couch.
I think you should really look at a Wall of battle....your rhomboid shall get more ships damaged
@@OscarMike3770 "staggered square", rhomboid, Wall of battle- I'm not sure we're thinking of the same things
something that just dawned on me, those Centrum ships guns on the far side could be kept on standby in case targets try to flee "above" or "below" them or if they can roll fast enough the ships could roll to bring those guns to bare for a salvo then rock the other way to do the same.
that idea makes me think that the best "ship of the line" design would be to simply bring the ship into a spin, firing the guns in turn much like a Gatling gun does except pointing outward.
Ah yes, Merician battle tactics.
@@youtubepleb the "spin the ship up to bring all guns to bare in turn" sounds more anime to me.
that or "I'll try spining! that's a good trick!"
Funny enough, Resurrected Starships did a video on Mon Cal cruisers, and the cigar-shaped Home One type was shown rolling in order to maximize turret use. 😆
The line of battle have a great benefits for allowing the ships to use their maximum broadside attack. Though I think it would be better if the line was in staggered pattern instead of a straight line since space is basically 3D.
The other thing is why wouldn’t ships of the line have their turrets arranged in centerline instead of wing mounted as they are? The current layout means that half of the turrets are basically unusable during the broadside, if they are in centerline, you could achieve the same broadside with less number of turrets to carry.
Also, I kinda find it odd that many sci fi treat space battles like a naval battle by having their fleet with went broadside or facing each other head on but why haven’t anyone try to attack enemy fleet from what would be from enemy’s above and below vectors? (I know there’s no real up or down in space but you get what I mean).
“Okay, what if we stacked like two or three lines of Battle to further concentrate broadside and forward firepower?”
“Stop being preposterous Lieutenant Harrington.”
Is it just me or did anyone else notice two new ships in this video
The CDF escort is likely a corvette of some kind and the union is an Alessiah class fast frigate mentioned in a post
@@JoaoSoares-rs6ecI guess I missed the smaller one the first time
@@BlandSpagettilooking back at the video now there's a third new ship it's in front of the confiance class frigates 2:25
The thumbnail of the Gate Transits and Gaterunning video has a pirate ship that looks like one of these, probably captured and modified. Single-engined, with at least two twin barreled swivel gun turrets and one (probably a second on the other side) single barreled ship-to-ship grade coilgun turret, shape a bit like a corvette class from the expanse, with some added scaffolding and something that looks like folding solar panels (maybe extra lower temp radiators, idk) most likely added by the pirates.
Considering that space is a 3D battlespace, I would imagine that the line of battle tactic would translate into space as a "wall" (i.e. multiple parallel lines stack atop one another) rather than single lines. Also, the fast escort craft leaving the line to engage the enemies at a distance are going to seriously hamper the line's firepower due to trying to avoid friendly fire incidents. This proposed tactic is more a threat to the lines security and effectiveness than anything else.
The Sojourn takes the bar that was set by Firefly, The Expanse, Battlestar Galactica, Cowboy Bebop (1998-1999), and many more to a new height that I really thought I'd never see in my lifetime. If the series were to be interpreted into a theatrical release I'd start queuing at the theater days ahead of time for the first showing. Very much looking forward to season 2!
My main goal in life is to learn more about the pretty thing we see leading the union forces.
So why don't the vessels tilt themselves a few degrees while in the line? Seems like any vessel roughly in the shape of a parallelogram could fire turreted guns from 3 of its 4 sides. In the artwork at 3:44 you can even see that the slightest list would allow those port dorsal guns to fire.
I haven't listened to the audiodrama so perhaps this is already addressed there and the artwork doesn't perfectly accurately portray combat.
What’s to say they don’t? It is a still image, after all.
I love The Sojourn and the quality and bulk of world building.
yeah this all makes me think of the battle of Trafalgar during the Napoleonic Wars. British Admiral Nelson destroyed the French and Spanish Fleets by rushing his ships into the Enemy Battle Line and opened up point-blank broadsides on the prows and sterns of each adjacent ship. that tactic more or less ruined the concept of the battle line for naval doctrine especially when combined with ever advancing ballistics technology. honestly seeing such archaic tactics in a Sci-Fi setting is surprising and makes me wonder just how such a tactic can develop in a space navy.
I really hope we get some detailed battle breakdowns.
I thoroughly enjoyed today's lore vid!
I honestly questioned early on how CDF ships weren't risking torching each otherwith their drive plumes, but that was addressed rather quickly.
Oh mein schnitzel... I was right all along in my belief that lines of battle would still be used in space.
My only issue is that large ships of the line are not slow, they're just not agile.
If the fleets don't have FTL travel, then both fleets could be accelerating for long distances before the fleets exchange fire.
They may ultimately just end up zipping past each other.
Waving after another driver gives way gets so tedious in some parts, especially west country, that it has evolved into just raising one finger from the steering wheel to say thanks 😂
Thanks for the content.
It sounds a bit like creating a large artillary battery and using the smaller ships to make up for the fact they don't terrain to slow the other side down.
Best Valentines gift ever.
I like this bit of Lore. While it is a little silly in some regards. It does have some air of real life to it. And it does take some inspiration from IRL situations. Like the Battle of Tsushima in 1904 in our own history. A classic show of old mindsets clashing with modern war reality.
@@JoaoSoares-rs6ec that's not crossing the T. Crossing the T is managing to have your entire line of battle's broadsides raking the enemy line from the front or rear of their formation.
Oh, so that's where the "ship of the line" gets the name! I hadn't even thought about there being a specific strategy/formation behind it, my brain was happy thinking it's a warship "for the front lines".
Seems like it should be more like a wall of battle if it's in space.
How about coasting missile+drone swarms off to the sides or even behind the enemy?
wait until pirates discover flechette missiles and make them go up and down onto their largest angles
Bringing age of sails tactics to space ain't very good idea, the ships themselves have a quite regressive design with turrets being placed in such a way that only half at a time can't fire in one particular direction, even before HMS dreadnought most ships already started placing their main guns in the middle to allow them to fire in both left, right and front, all guns not just half.
But it does look cool.
I was going to say something stupid for my next commitment on a Sojourn video but I can't remember what it was so I'm going to post this comment instead explaining that because if it isn't already clear to those who've seen me comment here before I'm just commenting to boost engagement for this channel
Hrm, would it be too strange for the ships to tilt slightly, allowing three "sides" of their gun batteries to fire?
"Line of Battle" tactics from the Age of Sail, designed for two-dimensional naval warfare, face challenges when adapted to the three-dimensional environment of space combat. Spacecraft can maneuvre and be attacked from multiple directions, necessitating formations that allow for omnidirectional defence and flexible repositioning. Therefore, while traditional line formations can offer focused fire and simpler command structures, they would likely require significant modifications to be effective in space.
bit of a typo in the title
🚀
Wait so is the best way to buy from Patreon?
Yes
That spotify deal is pretty dumb. Why do they offer a family plan, when they punish the customers? What if they share the costs. This is almost aggressively unfair and stupid.
It is possible that family plans not counting is a Spacedock/Sojourn decision rather than a Spotify decision.
@@gokbay3057logic out to me why the Sojourn production team would do something so blindingly stupid
@@MrFNP90 Heck if I know, I would rather if I was able to listen to Sojourn on Spotify but I can't. Since I am on a family plan as well.
So, how did these tactics come to exists? Who did they fight before the Frontier Union? There was a mention that "they hadn't fought a war in a 100 years", so against whom was that?
It was a 5 year war against a pirate empire founded by a guy named Jocastas Halpern. He talks about it in the two-part video he did on Valeria Sibus.
I can get your books several ways except the one I want. Your website selling the files would suit me. Then I own them like owning a book in the old days.
algorithm comment
Although I really enjoy some of your other lore, Line of battle makes 0 sense in 3 dimensional space. Entertaining idea though.
First