What other sorts of obstacles or events would go on your own Chase Complications table? Thanks so much to OnlyCrits for sponsoring this video! Visit www.onlycrits.com/supergeekmike and use the promo code SUPERGEEK at checkout! www.onlycrits.com/supergeekmike
1) You come upon a raucous parade directly in your path. Jugglers, trumpeters, a horse-drawn parade float with silk dancers on top, and a line of men puppeteering a long red paper dragon. 2) You come upon a crowded, maze-like fruit market under a canopy of colorful cloth. You pass between displays of hundreds of oranges, lemons, and even a pineapple vendor. 3) You come upon a crew of men carefully raising a grand piano to a third-story balcony using a system of ropes and pulleys. They block the entire alley, and the piano is currently 20 ft in the air.
After posting I realized this is sort of an opposed skill challenge. Use Side initiative. Start with 3 chase points. Need to be up by 3 points to win (chasers are up by 3 they catch. Runners are up by 3 they escape) if any Runner drops to 0 chase points they are in combat. (The number of chase points the others have is how many rounds it takes to get back to save them). If a chaser drops to 0 they're out and cannot pick up the chase unless someone shares them a chase point. They cannot gain their own. Roll d20 at the start of party/monster turn. If 3 point difference between participants on the same side after the chase, DC 15 survival or get separated. Actions Dash: gain a chase point. Can dash CON times then get exhaustion level per dash. Remove one level per short rest or all on a long rest. If starting a round exhausted, lose 1 chase point Help: Gift a chase point to an ally. Describe. Hide: vs nearest opponent’s passive perception: success +1, fail -1 Spells/Abilities/Attacks as per description. Melee only usable with 1 point spread. Effects that create difficult terrain or slow take away 1 chase point from target. Restrain effects take away 1 point per round till they save or concentration drops. D20 Affects rolling side at the start of their turn. 1 Roll on Encounter Table. Acts in other side’s favor. 2 Razorvine DC DEX 13 2d10 save ½ lose 1 chase point. 3. 10 foot wide crevasse Athletics/Acro 17 or lose a chase point. 4 Avoid Will’oWisp. Lose a chase point. Or go through/follow wisp and roll again for yourself 5 Step on a Sunbloom. DC 14 CON save for everyone on your side or blinded for 1 round, losing 1 chase point 6. Widow’s Web. Lose one chase point each round to attempt a DC 15 STR save. Until you pass you take 1d4 necrotic damage. Can choose to just take the damage each round to keep chase point. 7. Blind turn. Perception 15 or lose 1 chase point. 8. Clearing with Multiple Exits. DC 14 survival or lose 1 chase point 9. No Complication 10. No complication 11. No complication 12. Duck a Spiderweb. DC 16 DEX save to gain 1 chase point 13. Invigorating Spores. DC 15 CON save to gain 1 chase point. 14. Shortcut. DC 15 Survival, Perception, or Investigation to add 1 chase point 15. Serpentine: DC 15 Deception to add 1 chase point 16. Hood-slide over a mushroom cap. Gain 1 chase point with DC 14 Acrobatics 17. Create a cloud of spores, dislodge slime from a branch, etc. DC 14. Nature, Survival, or Sleight of Hand to gain 1 chase point. 18. Roll on encounter table. Acts in Your Favor 19. Break Line of Sight. +1 Chase Point. Roll stealth vs active perception. Success earns a second Chase Point 20. Second Wind: Regain 1 charge of Dash. Weird stuff: if base movement speed is within 5 or 10 feet, it doesn't affect this game mode. If the movement speed of one side is 2x or greater, they automatically gain 1 chase point per round.
1. There is a marbles tournament in the street. Those crossing the area make a DC 15 DEX save or fall prone. 2 There is a 10ft hole in the street with sewage running under it 3 A completely separate brawl pours out of a tavern.
I made multiple tables of these for different environments...city, docks, sewers, wilderness etc. and came up with my own system (or non system) after testing a whole pile of chase scene rules and none of them worked. The key to running a chase scene is to simply put a complication in front of the party and have them come up with a creative solution to getting around or through that complication then repeat the process over and over. The more complex the rules the less it's going to feel like an exciting chase. The more creative the players are in overcoming complications and losing their pursuers are the more fun they're likely to have. In the report I suggest you roll once for the entire party to see how their creative solution went. And use a success ladder. Every time you fail one of these rolls the pursuers get closer, every time you succeed you get further away until you escape. Here's the biggest secret: Rules kill chase scenes. They work better if you dump pretty much all of them. Here's just one of the tables: City Chase Scenarios 1d100 Small Obstacles 01 Clothing, hanging goods or laundry across your face obscuring your vision. 02 Food cart, merchant carts, horse and cart, bullock team & wagon in your path. Dodge? 03 Horse and carriage in your path. Dodge? Dive or crawl under? Jump over or jump on board? 04 Barrels and crates in your path. Jump or run over, avoid? Use as obstacles for your pursuers? 05 Low fence. Jump? Barge through? Knock over then go in a different direction (misdirection)? 06 Street urchins surround you begging. Give them money to misdirect or slow down pursuers? 07 Going towards a horse and carriage or cart or servant coming the other way. 08 Carriage or cart or servant carrying plates rolls or crashes into your path trying to avoid you. 09 Roadworks or building works. Workers replacing stones in the road, floorboards or roof tiles. 10 Builders moving a huge pane of glass, painting etc. in your path. Dive under? Leap over? 11 Group of drunks or revelers in the way. Buy them a round if they help you? 12 Slippery hazard in your path...water, ice, oil, crushed vegetables etc. Use against pursuers? 13 Something soft like a cart of straw, manure, cabbages etc. Jump on or over? Use as cover? 14 Staircase up or down. Run or ride a horse, shield or door as a sled on the staircase? 15 Building construction site in your path. Run through maze of scaffolds? Disguise as worker? 16 Chimney. Go down into a building or up onto a roof? Hide? Pretend to hide with decoy? 17 Staircase with railing. Run up or slide down staircase railing? 18 Staircase. Jump from staircase to staircase or railing to railing instead of all the stairs? 19 Multiple moving carriages. Running across their roofs? Riding like surfing on a roof? 20 Wall of blocks or logs with big grooves. Run on the sides of walls up, down or sideways? 21 Ladder on building or way to get up or down. Climb or slide up or down the ladder? 22 Cats, small dogs or a flock of pigeons in your path. Rub animals on you to confuse scent? 23 You see a shortcut. Run in the shadows close to the walls to avoid being seen? 24 Two peasants you don't know are in your path. Buy horse and cart from peasants? 25 Curtains, bead curtains or other concealing, light barrier in your path. 26 Sudden blast of heavy rain, hail, snow or dust storm. Use weather as cover to hide? 27 Flagpole, church spire, other high spot you could climb up to, jump to or from. 28 Person or small group in your path. People talking, beggar, mother and baby, child, children. Large Obstacles 29 Your pursuers take a shortcut. Completely change direction? 30 River, drain, channel, open sewer in your path. Swing over on rope, jump, swim across? 31 Roadworks - large hole opened up to the sewer below. Large hole in roof, ceiling or floor. 32 Road, floor, ground or roof crumbles under you. Jump down to sewers? Use as distraction? 33 Bridge being repaired or bridge broken. Bribe workers to misdirect then hide under bridge? 34 City guard has blocked the street. Sewer to go under? Disguise and ask to see captain. 35 Dead end alley. Climb up to roof? Leave a decoy then sneak out? 36 Drawbridge going up or heavy doors are closing in front of you. Jump or dive to get through? 37 Running in the opposite direction that a crowd of people is going in. 38 Escape blocked by a locked door. Pick lock? Leave door open and go in another direction? 39 Fastest path is a level lower than you that requires a huge jump. Swing on rope and hook? 40 Face to face with one of your pursuers. Try to talk? Bribe this pursuer? 41 Heavy door, portcullis or heavy gate in your path. Try to lift or unlock? Backtrack? 42 A pursuer is close enough to shoot at you. Take cover in doorway? Draw fire with a decoy? 43 Festival, carnival or party with large numbers of people. Meld into crowd? Cause panic? 44 High fence in your path. Climb it? Break or cut a hole in it - then go a different direction? 45 Street urchin gang of thieves or pickpockets surround you. Bribe them to hold up pursuers? 46 Horse breaks down, you fall off the horse or you twist an ankle. 47 Line of old lady peasants with walking sticks hobbling across your path. Hide under skirts? 48 Awnings you could climb up to or jump from one awning to the next. 49 Empty clothes or other lines run from buildings across the street. Run or zip line across ropes? 50 A row of sharp objects (rakes with sharp tynes, scythes, fence with spikes etc.) Jump over?
51 A large object in your path (handy for cover because you're being shot at.) 52 You fall into a hole, recessed stairs, or almost off a roof grabbing precariously to avoid injury. 53 Ditch or gap between roofs wide enough that you might leap across. Jump? Swing on rope? 54 You break a potion etc. that causes explosions or magic or releases snakes, a monster etc. 55 Pack of wild dogs, swarm of rats or scavenging urban animals or pests. Throw food? 56 Gate or high fence in your path. Knock down a way through? Climb? 57 Blind corner. Set a trap for pursuers around the corner? Use as cover to slip into building? Big Risk Big Opportunity 58 Balconies on the buildings here. Climb to balconies or jump from one to another? 59 A weak door in your path. Bust it down and use as a bridge or sled? 60 Big jump. Use a grappling hook and rope to jump off or swing across? 61 Closed window in your path. Jump through smashing it? 62 Pursuers in your path. Run on the heads and shoulders of your pursuers? 63 Windows of two buildings close together. Jump though one building to the other? 64 Large group of people in your path. Run on heads, shoulders, backs to get past them? 65 Pursuers focused on an object you carry. Throw the object from one adventurer to another? 66 Desk, chair etc. near a closed window in your path. Throw heavy object then jump through? 67 Bucket chain, mill wheel going up. Grab on and ride to the top? 68 Fast moving river, drain or sewer. Jump in? Improvise a raft? Look for and steal a boat? Help Appears (20% chance of betrayal) 69- 70 NPCs you know appear to help. Give them a great entrance! eg. Taking out a pursuer about to attack you, pulling you out of tight spot, pulling you into a hiding space in the nick of time. 71 Faction member offers help. Ask if he can provide fake documents? A place to hide? 72 Local calls you to come through his/her door. 73 Religious person (priest, cult member, acolyte, monk etc.) offers help. Disguise as priest etc.? More Pursuers Or Their Allies Appear 74 Pursuers coming from in front of you as well as behind you. Disguise as a pursuer? 75 Unhappy local throws fry-pan or other heavy or pointy object at you. 76 Coathangered by someone coming around a corner. Intentional or accidental? 77 Civilian/s try to stop you. Confuse civilian by pretending to be someone else? 78 Angry vigilante group seeking you in your path. Stirring speech getting them to revolt or riot? 79 Tripped - civilian, guard, child etc. tries to trip you. Fake injury then run when guard's down? Leaving Tracks 80 You realize you're cut and you might have left a blood trail. Leave a false blood trail? 81 Something you're carrying is being tracked by your pursuers. Make multiple decoys of item? They Can See You/Hear You/Find You 82 You realize your pursuers can track your scent. Run in circles? Run through water? 83 Angry dog barking could give away your location. Release the dog and run on rooftops? 84 You realize your pursuers can hear you. You may have to sneak away to avoid being heard. 85 Your pursuers have released animals to find you by scent. Stay downwind of pursuers? 86 Wind chimes, pots, or other objects that make noise if you hit them alerting your pursuers. 87 One of your pursuers is watching you from somewhere above you sharing your location. Disguise/Camouflage/Hide Opportunities 88 You see a side alley. Hide in side alley? 89 Beggars in rags. Disguise as a beggar? Bribe beggars to hide you or misdirect pursuers? 90 Chicken coop or animal enclosure. Hide among animals? Use animal manure to lose scent? 91 Laundry or clothes hanging for sale. Buy or steal clothes to use as disguise? 92 Cart carrying animal or human manure. Hide in manure and escape in cart? 93 You see a suit of clothing, robes, armor etc. that will fit you. Disguise yourself? 94 Procession (funeral, military, religious, celebratory, parade or other kind). Join procession? 95 Sewer cover in the street is open. Go down into sewer to hide or run? 96 Large group of monks etc. in long robes. They all look very similar under those robes. 97 You see a hiding spot. Hide or go into concealment in some way? 98 Crowd of people at, going to or leaving an execution, hanging, play, performance or speech. Leave That Behind? 99 You realize you've dropped something important. Go back for it? 100 Someone begs you to take them with you You can pick up How To Run Chase Scenes in any RPG here preview.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/425489/How-To-Run-Chase-Scenes-In-Any-Fantasy-RPG
The slight smile before that "I'm a bad person" was phenomenal. I don't know if it was intentional or not, but it oozes 'This joke lasted through writing the script, proofreading the script, performing the script, and editing the video, and I'm only a little bit sorry.' Oh, and the other content of the video was great too :)
I remember i had a chase scene where I was a centaur and with a wizard on my back. That one ended with the wizard accidentally casting a sleep spell on us instead of the target.
I can't remember what podcast I was listening to, but they recommended building a chase using the Complex Trap rules in "Xanathar's Guide to Everything". Where the chase has active, dynamic, and constant elements as well as countermeasures the characters can take to end the chase. It took a little work to wrap my head around it, but when I gave it a try it worked out really well at the table. This works great when the chase is a set piece you plan for the session. A bit harder to work with if you have a chase break out spontaneously. In that case, I would probably use the table in the DMG as inspiration and kinda wing the rest of it.
Not really? Have you ever seen the party fail a skill challenge? Have you ever seen anyone fail more than one or mayyyybe two rolls in a skill challenge? Skill challenges allow the party to meet a problem on their terms. They were taken out of the game for a reason.
I really don't like skill challenges. They went through like five different iterations while the developers fixed the math. But I've run them many times, and each time, I get a similar result: player looks at character sheet, finds their best skill, and comes up with some narrative BS for why it should work. It doesn't encourage interesting solutions, it encourages interesting excuses. It's also generally disassociated design (the player isn't thinking as the character) which weakens the fiction of the game world. See the Alexandrian's review of Keep on the Shadowfell for a deeper dive on these topics.
@@geoffdewitt6845 I mean, you can still say no to some solutions, you shouldn't really allow every skill to be applicable to every complication, and the consequences of failing two of three challenges should be a good tax on the whole party even if they don't fail the whole thing. Even if someone does use their best skill, then it's gone for the rest of the challenge, and if there's a challenge later that would have been applicable, they lost their shot and will have to use something else. I don't really see how it separates the player from the character mindset, they're still thinking from the character's perspective on how to solve the problem. I mean if it's BS, then it doesn't fly and you can't use that skill. I will check out the Alexandrian's take, I'm curious because I've always found them to be pretty useful.
@@Lurklen Yep, but my point is that if skill challenges are supposed to enable creative solutions, and I still have to push the PCs to achieve that, then skill challenges *aren't doing their job.*
My group had this same conversation and experience with these rules. When I started watching this video, I said "These clips had better include Daniel Craig plowing through the plaster, and Karen Allen hiding in the basket" Thank you Mike for not disappointing.
My net cut out just in time for me to hear "this video is sponsored by only_" my brain filled the rest with "only fans". And now I'm trying to imagine what that could possibly mean xD
When you mentioned the 1st wilderness complication I thought "He is not allowed to clip the Stampede from the Lion King", but look what he did. Opening my old scars.
This is gonna sound like a weird compliment, but I always appreciate scrolling into the comments and seeing how much you interact with the community. It’s very refreshing keeps things feeling more like a discussion and not the generic RUclips call to action.
It's very funny to me that Skill Challenges get talked about like they're a native part of 5e, especially given how much pushback the mechanic got in 4e.
I like how the Modiphius's Blade Runner RPG handles chases, from what I've seen of it in actual plays. Quarry and pursuer have a manouveur deck, play face down simulatiniously, then you flip a random event card, then quarry does their manouveur bearing in mind any additional complications from the random event, then the pursuer does so. One of the manouveurs is 'other' which the GM needs to adjudicate appropriately. General range zones rather than exact feet, the rules assume you're going to be shooting at each other rather than just racing each other, and it just creates a feeling appropriate to the films it's based on, and it being a deck rather than a series of dice rolls on a table means you don't get repeats.
I'm learning Savage Worlds Adventure Edition (aka SWADE), and they have a chase system that uses playing cards. But from what I've read in the fan community, most people suggest just using the Dramatic Tasks system, which is basically just SWADE's take on skill challenges 😉
The way I would run a chase would be to have a Runehammer 'roll-off': everyone involved in the chase keeps rolling their die until it comes up 20, the first one to do so achieves their goal (catch quarry, escape, etc). So now you have a timed competition, which is what makes chases exciting. For extra pressure you can add-in a stopwatch or board game hourglass. Another good idea is to treat a chase like an 'advanced test' from Fantasy Age--first one to meet their target wins.
I once had a chase in a game where we were running accross rooftops. Dragon ranger had her dragon pick up our kobold artificer, while our paladin picked up my wizard (who was barely conscious enough to cast spells without making arcana checks, so i was using spells like animate objects to cause roofing tiles to move, and wall of force to create temporary paths over large gaps in buildings) and our rogue plotted a path over the rooftops that we could escape througn (since our rangers favored terrain wasnt urban). It was actually really fun, and insentivised working together with the current chase rules. do they need improvement? oh yea absolutely. but if your party works together to keep moving while debilitating the chasers it works.
And this is why I just use the Call of Cthulhu chase rules. Takes a little adapting between systems, but it works well enough and my players like them better than the normal rules.
@@Lurklen Seth Skorkowsky has an entire video on it, but the short version is it's easy to track and interact with, and less prone to breaking down into slog in my experience compared to the D&D rules.
Was thinking the same. To elaborate more: Chases basically reimagine the scenario cinematically as a line with some number of dots (just whatever seems right, they don't represent fixed distances or paths) and preestablished complications and barriers. Movement gets shrunk to usually about 1-2 scaling based on the slowest participant. Each dot costs 1 move, and if the runner(s) reach the end before the chaser(s) catch them, they escape. Complications are minor issues that involve skill checks, succeeding gets you past clean and failing gets you past but costs movement Example: jumping a fence might be rolled for 'Jump' or Athletics in the D&D case, if you fail you got tripped up and now you lose 2 movement getting back up, which could be like 2 full rounds if you only had 1 movement. Random complications can also be added at request, alternating between sides. So if the heroes request a complication for the monster chasing them, they can't do so again until the monster gives them a complication. Barriers are just the same as complications but you don't get past on a failure. Obviously you can get much more complicated than that if you want with branching paths and stuff.
As a GM who runs multiple different systems, I feel like the best Chase Rules out there has to belong to Call of Cthulhu. Those rules are amazing and lead to a cinematic experience as well as an abstracted one that is legitimately fun to play through. I need to come up with a way to convert those rules for my 5e group.
One thing I've done in chases, the target/pursuer moves half their speed on their turn and half on initiative count 20, this is to simulate the moments where you have made a bit of ground, JUST enough to go for a tackle or to cast a spell.
I made my own chase rules after using these and finding them lacking. The chase table was great but the procedure was not. Good callout on making the complications on the start of the active person's turn. I changed it.
The chase rules in pathfinder 2 are basically similar, but at least they go all the way into making it a skill challenge inspired by 4e instead of asking you to use feet or passive perception or any of that other nonsense that doesn't make sense for that type of scene. I think my only issue with it was that it was hard for me to figure out how you'd apply bonuses if you did happen to get extra speed or were on a mount. That kind of thing I'd have to just do by hand. To be fair, 5e doesn't really cover that either as far as I can tell.
5E would just add it to your speed, and then the DM has to supply the context to the area of the chase. At some point you'd get far enough ahead that you'd be out of sight, or the chase ends as you lose them. The way they do it, it kind of feels like chases should be planned ahead of time instead of having a system to run them when they occur, making this set of rules pretty tricky to utilize. I haven't seen the chase rules for 2E yet, though I did pla through one as a character, it worked pretty well. At the end my aged ranger shook a goblin for making him run before breakfast.
From what i remember, the objective and the unspoken assumption of PF2E chases is that you don't just care about movement speed, but you are more concerned about overcoming obstacles using various skill checks, and the speed at which you and the other party involved in the chase move (represented by the number of obstacles that you have between the chasers and the chased). If i'm not mistaken, the gamemastery guide even says that the "chased starts X obstacles away from the chaser" and you basically end the chase when the two party involved are at the same obstacle. I think that it's just a way to report the scene to the core assumption of the system (you roll a d20 and add your relevant modifiers) and, as the skill challenges in 4e were, to encourage and value the investment on different skills by the PCs. (both are pretty elegant solutions to deal with situations that the core system can't handle that well imho). In this sense, a certain equipment/skill/feat of the character is useful for certain situations, and not for others. Like, in your example, having a mount can give you a bonus or improve by one degree of success (so when you get a success, you critically succeed instead) towards athletics checks to push you forward or to overcome difficult terrain, or, depending on the mount, acrobatic checks or even survival checks (like, your mount is able to track creatures in the dark, or by scent, or something like that) ; is gonna do you little to persuade the rambling merchant that your party member just smashed the cart of to let you go without calling the guards.
I'd say the passive check is a good idea, in that it does allow the quarry to hide and possibly reposition (I'd use the same for the players if roles were reversed). Then, when the players get their chance, they can roll the perception check to try & find where the quarry went.
When it comes to "Active vs Passive" Perception in the chase, you gotta remember Perception checks are an action (most of the time...sigh). They can actively do a perception check, but they can't haul ass while doing it (which makes sense). I think my real problem with chases is that I have to track the speed of everyone every turn. I do want faster characters to be rewarded, and slower characters to be challenged (this is why I think it's silly they've gotten rid of slower speeds for smaller characters), but I also don't know that I want to keep track of the tally every turn (though there may be no way to avoid that to some degree). It's a bit of a pain when I'm also trying to narrativize this whole scenario and track the NPC's. I like skill challenges as a solution, but not totally, as there should still be an element of real physical representation. Chases should be somewhere between regular movement and the abstraction of a skill challenge. You want positioning and movement to matter more than in a skill challenge, but you don't want it to be super granular. I've run several chases now, and they're always a pain even when we have fun with them. I think somewhere between is a solution.
I haven't yet found a satisfying chase mechanic in a roleplaying game. Contests aren't satisfying because they're over with one or two opposed rolls and no complications. Strict movement isn't satisfying because it's determinative with no random elements. And as we know in a videogame a chase is satisfying if we're being chased and get away, or if we're chasing and catch our target. But TTRPGs don't always favor PCs in chase rules because it seems unfair, which it is. Combat is fairer. I think we're really looking for combat-like rules for chases. But I like the rules you came up with. The complications add a lot.
I feel like there might be an easy tweak for the complication rolls where ONLY the quarry rolls (and maybe it's done as a group if the PCs are the quarry) and the quarry can choose whether to take a risk (maybe an uneven risk in some cases) to lead the pursuer through the same danger or to avoid it based on their attributes and knowledge of same.
It should also be possible for the quarry to create a complication, e.g. throwing money in the air near a group of beggars causing them to block the path as they scramble for coins; cut the ties securing a cart load of barrels. But then the quarry has to spend an action (perhaps a bonus action if something simple) to do so.
Kudos tu you for using Gravity Falls in your video....and the best chase scene I remember from a movie: Casino Royale. I haven't had the chance to make use of a chasing challenge, but for what I can learn from you, maybe try to homebrew something that might work than using the rules from the book.
Watching now, but for chases I really like the Chronicles of Darkness chase system so far. The actor with the Edge in a chase (which can change and has rules to determine it) sets the dice roll for that round of chasing. So maybe the runner ducks into a market alley, using Acrobatics to pull some Jackie Chan moves and try to gain ground, forcing the pursuer to match his roll. If the chaser seizes the Edge, maybe they corral the runner into a straightaway, forcing both to roll Con check to keep up a sprint. First to a total number of successes gets the result they’re looking for, either escape or forcing close contact. It keeps the rolls varied and adds a way for the chaser to influence the chase, I’m really fond of it.
I was gona say I have no idea how we've missed this in our CoD game when we've been playing for months. Then I remember the last session involved an accidental double kidnapping .
If you look up the first adventure of the Eberron series Convergence Manifesto, it opens with something like BASE jumping with a Featherfall token rather than a parachute. You’re being initiated into an adventuring guild, and the test is to wait as long as possible before engaging the token. On the way down, there are randomized complications and skill checks to deal with them. It’s almost an inverse chase scene, but it shares the same structure of what could work on a regular one. You could also use FATE dice to add some variance to speeds, with each + and - equaling 5’.
I see that Edge of the Empire CRB on your bookshelf there, and by my reckoning they've got a pretty decent chase mechanic in their vehicles section. Probably not much help for D&D players out of the box, but maybe worth a look if you're trying to streamline your existing ruleset.
I agree with your conclusion (Chase Rules bad), but I disagree with your analysis. I think the reason the Chase Rules fail is because the players are not making any choices. The whole point of a role playing game is to *play a role.* In other words, to make decisions as your character. And the chase rules don't let you do that. (I disagree with the skill challenge idea, too, but it at least lets players make *some* choices)
skill challenges are the best rule for all kinds of random shit, my main 5e dm used them from the beginning and i've been using them in almost all of my games, regardless of system
I keep trying to run a chase, I've even created maps filled with obstacles and hiding spots etc with the intention of turning it into an intense game of hide and seek. Never got to use any of them though as the sorcerer in my party's first move is always to cast Hideous Laughter. He's even ended boss fights with it. One day I'll get my chase scene...
Yeah, they can roll a Perception check, of course they can... but that takes an action, so they can't dash... "You turn a corner, the quarry seemingly dissapeared, what do you do?" "...um, can I search for them?" "Sure, you can use your action to make a perception check". "22" "Yeah, you see the quarry past the crowd, across the street, headed down the dusty alleyway, but he seems to have made some headway during the time you spent looking". Alternatively, they could've just kept dashing, and would've possibly found the quarry again by guessing the correct location... or, yeah, they might just lose them
Lightning bolt has a range of 100 feet, Fireball has a range of 150 feet, Meteor swarm has a range of 1 mile etc. do i have line of sight to the quary then i might be more inclined to just cast a spell.
I'm baffled by the incongruity between the chase rules starting out essentially saying "chases are boring when you use strict movement/action economy rules" and then the very next section suggesting that you should still be using initiative, movement, and action rules just like in combat. I don't even like to use initiative when running chase scenes. It's understood that everyone is running at the same time, why does it matter who acts first? Use skill challenges, spells, or other abilities to determine how well the quarry/pursuers are keeping up, and you can still introduce random hurdles. Or, even better, don't rely on random hurdles and instead choose hurdles ahead of time to throw at your players that are appropriate to the scene, or responsive to the decisions they're making! Just because the dice are right there in front of you doesn't mean you have to use them to randomly determine everything that happens in the game.
You should check the chase rules for Call of Cthulhu, they're the gold standard amongst RPGs. Maybe there's some inspiration there to adapt something to DnD
I would recommend Call of Cthulhu or Savage Worlds for chase mechanics. They do it a lot better. A quarry having to beat passive perception is highly favoring the players given how most monsters have a really bad passive perception most do not break 15, but a PC can take feats, stat increases, and use spells like pass without a trace to escape fairly easily. Given how most dark vision is 60 feet, it almost garentees they will get away at night, which is the point. But using passive perception, the players do not know when they lose the Quarry, so less chance of metagaming. That is the whole point of passive scores. Players usually only mind this when they fail; you are letting the dice decide same as if they cast banish on your beholder and you are making a save. If it is a fair die, it does not matter who rolls it, make the pc's give you the d20 roll if it matters. Rolling high on a table is not always better, even in the base player's handbook. This is not a modified ability, just a random complication, so a 7 is just the 7th item listed. I have never seen a player get upset about the 20th thing listed being better or worse than the 1st. Biggest issue with the d&d chase mechanics is they are too dang long. You are still going in turn order, resolving this in concrete terms that require a large map, and faster characters will still win by default, it just takes more rounds to catch up. The complication table is set as a city by default, and the most likely place for the pc's to run is that overland random encounter chart whe you run into a t-rex in Chult because you rolled a 27 in this hex. The t-Rex can step over most obstacles listed.
Ayyyyyy that Dorkness Rising clip Fitting given the nearing release of another 'legit' D&D film to flop while there's a veritable spread of independent fan efforts made over the last number of decades
Wow. Someone wrote that and nobody said... Anything? I've been DMing for a while now, and I have still never actually read the DM guide. And at this point I think it's has helped me more than not.
There's a lot of good stuff in there, but there's some stuff that isn't great. I'd still advise giving it a read, even if you don't like all the designer's solutions to a problem, there's good fodder for solutions to problems that people often bring up about 5E.
It might be fun to run a chase like you would a gambling scenario. So there's a risk and reward with the players actions. When you hit a complication, they can choose to risk more and get there faster, or risk less and get there slower. thoughts?
Honestly, I'm a *big fan* of players rolling to influence the next person down the line, both as a player and as a GM. But I'm also a Shadowrun player, so, hey, what do I know?
Lol fair enough! I’m genuinely glad some folks have gotten good use out of the rules, I personally find that they fall short but I’m glad you’ve gotten good use out of them ☺️
That may be more based on how I presented them, the rules are (arguably) a bit more neutral than that. I just often find that it’s the players who are chasing after NPCs lol
Yeah, D&D5e's chase rules leave a lot to be desired. That said, I've always been a fan of Call of Cthulhu's chase rules! Even though they're arguably just as rules heavy, they manage to fulfill the fantasy of running away from something horrific and getting caught by an obstacle, all while the monster closes in. Super great mechanic, though, maybe only good for CoC's system. I've yet to find a seamless way of porting those rules into D&D5e.
Every time people explain why players generally don't run from combat in 5e, the chase rules come up, and it drives me nuts because they're not good for that either. All spells and attacks still work, and monsters have higher constitution than most pcs, so the chase rules don't even do "running from combat" well. The tables are fun, but I feel like after 2-3 chases in a campaign the limited number of complications given would get repetitive. Anyway, it's a shame the 4e-as-written implementation of skill challenges wasn't great, and that the community largely rejected 4e, because "just do a skill challenge" is actually often the right answer.
Hi Algorithm, I may not have anything in particular to say, but that doesn't mean I don't think this video was good, so please make sure other people see it. Thanks.
Yes sir, you are a bad person 😂😂😂 for casters, I'd consider their challenge met if they ran in place irl and sung their favorite song's hook, then let them roll damage/effect. It's stupid, and probably a one time gag, but fun at the right tables.
I find it hilarious that Mike's "if you're only going to change one thing" factually has no impact on the outcome. A d20 without modifiers is a d20 without modifiers, period. Not saying it's a bad take, but it's funny to hear the blatant gambler's fallacy of so many D&D players discussed in this way.
What other sorts of obstacles or events would go on your own Chase Complications table?
Thanks so much to OnlyCrits for sponsoring this video! Visit www.onlycrits.com/supergeekmike and use the promo code SUPERGEEK at checkout!
www.onlycrits.com/supergeekmike
1) You come upon a raucous parade directly in your path. Jugglers, trumpeters, a horse-drawn parade float with silk dancers on top, and a line of men puppeteering a long red paper dragon.
2) You come upon a crowded, maze-like fruit market under a canopy of colorful cloth. You pass between displays of hundreds of oranges, lemons, and even a pineapple vendor.
3) You come upon a crew of men carefully raising a grand piano to a third-story balcony using a system of ropes and pulleys. They block the entire alley, and the piano is currently 20 ft in the air.
After posting I realized this is sort of an opposed skill challenge.
Use Side initiative. Start with 3 chase points. Need to be up by 3 points to win (chasers are up by 3 they catch. Runners are up by 3 they escape) if any Runner drops to 0 chase points they are in combat. (The number of chase points the others have is how many rounds it takes to get back to save them). If a chaser drops to 0 they're out and cannot pick up the chase unless someone shares them a chase point. They cannot gain their own.
Roll d20 at the start of party/monster turn. If 3 point difference between participants on the same side after the chase, DC 15 survival or get separated.
Actions
Dash: gain a chase point. Can dash CON times then get exhaustion level per dash. Remove one level per short rest or all on a long rest. If starting a round exhausted, lose 1 chase point
Help: Gift a chase point to an ally. Describe.
Hide: vs nearest opponent’s passive perception: success +1, fail -1
Spells/Abilities/Attacks as per description. Melee only usable with 1 point spread. Effects that create difficult terrain or slow take away 1 chase point from target. Restrain effects take away 1 point per round till they save or concentration drops.
D20 Affects rolling side at the start of their turn.
1 Roll on Encounter Table. Acts in other side’s favor.
2 Razorvine DC DEX 13 2d10 save ½ lose 1 chase point.
3. 10 foot wide crevasse Athletics/Acro 17 or lose a chase point.
4 Avoid Will’oWisp. Lose a chase point. Or go through/follow wisp and roll again for yourself
5 Step on a Sunbloom. DC 14 CON save for everyone on your side or blinded for 1 round, losing 1 chase point
6. Widow’s Web. Lose one chase point each round to attempt a DC 15 STR save. Until you pass you take 1d4 necrotic damage. Can choose to just take the damage each round to keep chase point.
7. Blind turn. Perception 15 or lose 1 chase point.
8. Clearing with Multiple Exits. DC 14 survival or lose 1 chase point
9. No Complication
10. No complication
11. No complication
12. Duck a Spiderweb. DC 16 DEX save to gain 1 chase point
13. Invigorating Spores. DC 15 CON save to gain 1 chase point.
14. Shortcut. DC 15 Survival, Perception, or Investigation to add 1 chase point
15. Serpentine: DC 15 Deception to add 1 chase point
16. Hood-slide over a mushroom cap. Gain 1 chase point with DC 14 Acrobatics
17. Create a cloud of spores, dislodge slime from a branch, etc. DC 14. Nature, Survival, or Sleight of Hand to gain 1 chase point.
18. Roll on encounter table. Acts in Your Favor
19. Break Line of Sight. +1 Chase Point. Roll stealth vs active perception. Success earns a second Chase Point
20. Second Wind: Regain 1 charge of Dash.
Weird stuff: if base movement speed is within 5 or 10 feet, it doesn't affect this game mode. If the movement speed of one side is 2x or greater, they automatically gain 1 chase point per round.
1. There is a marbles tournament in the street. Those crossing the area make a DC 15 DEX save or fall prone.
2 There is a 10ft hole in the street with sewage running under it
3 A completely separate brawl pours out of a tavern.
I made multiple tables of these for different environments...city, docks, sewers, wilderness etc. and came up with my own system (or non system) after testing a whole pile of chase scene rules and none of them worked.
The key to running a chase scene is to simply put a complication in front of the party and have them come up with a creative solution to getting around or through that complication then repeat the process over and over. The more complex the rules the less it's going to feel like an exciting chase. The more creative the players are in overcoming complications and losing their pursuers are the more fun they're likely to have.
In the report I suggest you roll once for the entire party to see how their creative solution went. And use a success ladder. Every time you fail one of these rolls the pursuers get closer, every time you succeed you get further away until you escape.
Here's the biggest secret: Rules kill chase scenes. They work better if you dump pretty much all of them.
Here's just one of the tables:
City Chase Scenarios 1d100
Small Obstacles
01 Clothing, hanging goods or laundry across your face obscuring your vision.
02 Food cart, merchant carts, horse and cart, bullock team & wagon in your path. Dodge?
03 Horse and carriage in your path. Dodge? Dive or crawl under? Jump over or jump on board?
04 Barrels and crates in your path. Jump or run over, avoid? Use as obstacles for your pursuers?
05 Low fence. Jump? Barge through? Knock over then go in a different direction (misdirection)?
06 Street urchins surround you begging. Give them money to misdirect or slow down pursuers?
07 Going towards a horse and carriage or cart or servant coming the other way.
08 Carriage or cart or servant carrying plates rolls or crashes into your path trying to avoid you.
09 Roadworks or building works. Workers replacing stones in the road, floorboards or roof tiles.
10 Builders moving a huge pane of glass, painting etc. in your path. Dive under? Leap over?
11 Group of drunks or revelers in the way. Buy them a round if they help you?
12 Slippery hazard in your path...water, ice, oil, crushed vegetables etc. Use against pursuers?
13 Something soft like a cart of straw, manure, cabbages etc. Jump on or over? Use as cover?
14 Staircase up or down. Run or ride a horse, shield or door as a sled on the staircase?
15 Building construction site in your path. Run through maze of scaffolds? Disguise as worker?
16 Chimney. Go down into a building or up onto a roof? Hide? Pretend to hide with decoy?
17 Staircase with railing. Run up or slide down staircase railing?
18 Staircase. Jump from staircase to staircase or railing to railing instead of all the stairs?
19 Multiple moving carriages. Running across their roofs? Riding like surfing on a roof?
20 Wall of blocks or logs with big grooves. Run on the sides of walls up, down or sideways?
21 Ladder on building or way to get up or down. Climb or slide up or down the ladder?
22 Cats, small dogs or a flock of pigeons in your path. Rub animals on you to confuse scent?
23 You see a shortcut. Run in the shadows close to the walls to avoid being seen?
24 Two peasants you don't know are in your path. Buy horse and cart from peasants?
25 Curtains, bead curtains or other concealing, light barrier in your path.
26 Sudden blast of heavy rain, hail, snow or dust storm. Use weather as cover to hide?
27 Flagpole, church spire, other high spot you could climb up to, jump to or from.
28 Person or small group in your path. People talking, beggar, mother and baby, child, children.
Large Obstacles
29 Your pursuers take a shortcut. Completely change direction?
30 River, drain, channel, open sewer in your path. Swing over on rope, jump, swim across?
31 Roadworks - large hole opened up to the sewer below. Large hole in roof, ceiling or floor.
32 Road, floor, ground or roof crumbles under you. Jump down to sewers? Use as distraction?
33 Bridge being repaired or bridge broken. Bribe workers to misdirect then hide under bridge?
34 City guard has blocked the street. Sewer to go under? Disguise and ask to see captain.
35 Dead end alley. Climb up to roof? Leave a decoy then sneak out?
36 Drawbridge going up or heavy doors are closing in front of you. Jump or dive to get through?
37 Running in the opposite direction that a crowd of people is going in.
38 Escape blocked by a locked door. Pick lock? Leave door open and go in another direction?
39 Fastest path is a level lower than you that requires a huge jump. Swing on rope and hook?
40 Face to face with one of your pursuers. Try to talk? Bribe this pursuer?
41 Heavy door, portcullis or heavy gate in your path. Try to lift or unlock? Backtrack?
42 A pursuer is close enough to shoot at you. Take cover in doorway? Draw fire with a decoy?
43 Festival, carnival or party with large numbers of people. Meld into crowd? Cause panic?
44 High fence in your path. Climb it? Break or cut a hole in it - then go a different direction?
45 Street urchin gang of thieves or pickpockets surround you. Bribe them to hold up pursuers?
46 Horse breaks down, you fall off the horse or you twist an ankle.
47 Line of old lady peasants with walking sticks hobbling across your path. Hide under skirts?
48 Awnings you could climb up to or jump from one awning to the next.
49 Empty clothes or other lines run from buildings across the street. Run or zip line across ropes?
50 A row of sharp objects (rakes with sharp tynes, scythes, fence with spikes etc.) Jump over?
51 A large object in your path (handy for cover because you're being shot at.)
52 You fall into a hole, recessed stairs, or almost off a roof grabbing precariously to avoid injury.
53 Ditch or gap between roofs wide enough that you might leap across. Jump? Swing on rope?
54 You break a potion etc. that causes explosions or magic or releases snakes, a monster etc.
55 Pack of wild dogs, swarm of rats or scavenging urban animals or pests. Throw food?
56 Gate or high fence in your path. Knock down a way through? Climb?
57 Blind corner. Set a trap for pursuers around the corner? Use as cover to slip into building?
Big Risk Big Opportunity
58 Balconies on the buildings here. Climb to balconies or jump from one to another?
59 A weak door in your path. Bust it down and use as a bridge or sled?
60 Big jump. Use a grappling hook and rope to jump off or swing across?
61 Closed window in your path. Jump through smashing it?
62 Pursuers in your path. Run on the heads and shoulders of your pursuers?
63 Windows of two buildings close together. Jump though one building to the other?
64 Large group of people in your path. Run on heads, shoulders, backs to get past them?
65 Pursuers focused on an object you carry. Throw the object from one adventurer to another?
66 Desk, chair etc. near a closed window in your path. Throw heavy object then jump through?
67 Bucket chain, mill wheel going up. Grab on and ride to the top?
68 Fast moving river, drain or sewer. Jump in? Improvise a raft? Look for and steal a boat?
Help Appears (20% chance of betrayal)
69- 70 NPCs you know appear to help. Give them a great entrance! eg. Taking out a pursuer about to
attack you, pulling you out of tight spot, pulling you into a hiding space in the nick of time.
71 Faction member offers help. Ask if he can provide fake documents? A place to hide?
72 Local calls you to come through his/her door.
73 Religious person (priest, cult member, acolyte, monk etc.) offers help. Disguise as priest etc.?
More Pursuers Or Their Allies Appear
74 Pursuers coming from in front of you as well as behind you. Disguise as a pursuer?
75 Unhappy local throws fry-pan or other heavy or pointy object at you.
76 Coathangered by someone coming around a corner. Intentional or accidental?
77 Civilian/s try to stop you. Confuse civilian by pretending to be someone else?
78 Angry vigilante group seeking you in your path. Stirring speech getting them to revolt or riot?
79 Tripped - civilian, guard, child etc. tries to trip you. Fake injury then run when guard's down?
Leaving Tracks
80 You realize you're cut and you might have left a blood trail. Leave a false blood trail?
81 Something you're carrying is being tracked by your pursuers. Make multiple decoys of item?
They Can See You/Hear You/Find You
82 You realize your pursuers can track your scent. Run in circles? Run through water?
83 Angry dog barking could give away your location. Release the dog and run on rooftops?
84 You realize your pursuers can hear you. You may have to sneak away to avoid being heard.
85 Your pursuers have released animals to find you by scent. Stay downwind of pursuers?
86 Wind chimes, pots, or other objects that make noise if you hit them alerting your pursuers.
87 One of your pursuers is watching you from somewhere above you sharing your location.
Disguise/Camouflage/Hide Opportunities
88 You see a side alley. Hide in side alley?
89 Beggars in rags. Disguise as a beggar? Bribe beggars to hide you or misdirect pursuers?
90 Chicken coop or animal enclosure. Hide among animals? Use animal manure to lose scent?
91 Laundry or clothes hanging for sale. Buy or steal clothes to use as disguise?
92 Cart carrying animal or human manure. Hide in manure and escape in cart?
93 You see a suit of clothing, robes, armor etc. that will fit you. Disguise yourself?
94 Procession (funeral, military, religious, celebratory, parade or other kind). Join procession?
95 Sewer cover in the street is open. Go down into sewer to hide or run?
96 Large group of monks etc. in long robes. They all look very similar under those robes.
97 You see a hiding spot. Hide or go into concealment in some way?
98 Crowd of people at, going to or leaving an execution, hanging, play, performance or speech.
Leave That Behind?
99 You realize you've dropped something important. Go back for it?
100 Someone begs you to take them with you
You can pick up How To Run Chase Scenes in any RPG here preview.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/425489/How-To-Run-Chase-Scenes-In-Any-Fantasy-RPG
Listening without watching, and the first words were "Hi buddy, are you just really needy today?"
I feel seen.
The slight smile before that "I'm a bad person" was phenomenal. I don't know if it was intentional or not, but it oozes 'This joke lasted through writing the script, proofreading the script, performing the script, and editing the video, and I'm only a little bit sorry.'
Oh, and the other content of the video was great too :)
That was perfectly timed... And I hate you for it. Perfect video 10/10
I remember i had a chase scene where I was a centaur and with a wizard on my back. That one ended with the wizard accidentally casting a sleep spell on us instead of the target.
Wow Mike, excellent demonstration of a psychological sneak attack. You monster. (CR 7)
😈
I can't remember what podcast I was listening to, but they recommended building a chase using the Complex Trap rules in "Xanathar's Guide to Everything". Where the chase has active, dynamic, and constant elements as well as countermeasures the characters can take to end the chase. It took a little work to wrap my head around it, but when I gave it a try it worked out really well at the table. This works great when the chase is a set piece you plan for the session. A bit harder to work with if you have a chase break out spontaneously. In that case, I would probably use the table in the DMG as inspiration and kinda wing the rest of it.
I don't DM but it really sounds like a lot of the problems of 5e could just be solved by skill challenges
☝️☝️☝️
Not really? Have you ever seen the party fail a skill challenge? Have you ever seen anyone fail more than one or mayyyybe two rolls in a skill challenge?
Skill challenges allow the party to meet a problem on their terms. They were taken out of the game for a reason.
I really don't like skill challenges. They went through like five different iterations while the developers fixed the math. But I've run them many times, and each time, I get a similar result: player looks at character sheet, finds their best skill, and comes up with some narrative BS for why it should work. It doesn't encourage interesting solutions, it encourages interesting excuses. It's also generally disassociated design (the player isn't thinking as the character) which weakens the fiction of the game world. See the Alexandrian's review of Keep on the Shadowfell for a deeper dive on these topics.
@@geoffdewitt6845 I mean, you can still say no to some solutions, you shouldn't really allow every skill to be applicable to every complication, and the consequences of failing two of three challenges should be a good tax on the whole party even if they don't fail the whole thing. Even if someone does use their best skill, then it's gone for the rest of the challenge, and if there's a challenge later that would have been applicable, they lost their shot and will have to use something else.
I don't really see how it separates the player from the character mindset, they're still thinking from the character's perspective on how to solve the problem. I mean if it's BS, then it doesn't fly and you can't use that skill. I will check out the Alexandrian's take, I'm curious because I've always found them to be pretty useful.
@@Lurklen Yep, but my point is that if skill challenges are supposed to enable creative solutions, and I still have to push the PCs to achieve that, then skill challenges *aren't doing their job.*
My group had this same conversation and experience with these rules. When I started watching this video, I said "These clips had better include Daniel Craig plowing through the plaster, and Karen Allen hiding in the basket" Thank you Mike for not disappointing.
My net cut out just in time for me to hear "this video is sponsored by only_" my brain filled the rest with "only fans".
And now I'm trying to imagine what that could possibly mean xD
Lol I mean, I do have an OF, so it wouldn’t be inaccurate ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
When you mentioned the 1st wilderness complication I thought "He is not allowed to clip the Stampede from the Lion King", but look what he did. Opening my old scars.
When you said "stampede" I KNEW what clip you were going to use 😂
Yeah… Honestly most of D&D5Es issues could be remedied with “try what 4E did” or “don’t do it just because Gygax did”.
This is gonna sound like a weird compliment, but I always appreciate scrolling into the comments and seeing how much you interact with the community. It’s very refreshing keeps things feeling more like a discussion and not the generic RUclips call to action.
Thank you! ☺️
It all boils down to "Im a DM. I make problems, the players make solutions." Great words to game by.
It's very funny to me that Skill Challenges get talked about like they're a native part of 5e, especially given how much pushback the mechanic got in 4e.
I like how the Modiphius's Blade Runner RPG handles chases, from what I've seen of it in actual plays. Quarry and pursuer have a manouveur deck, play face down simulatiniously, then you flip a random event card, then quarry does their manouveur bearing in mind any additional complications from the random event, then the pursuer does so. One of the manouveurs is 'other' which the GM needs to adjudicate appropriately. General range zones rather than exact feet, the rules assume you're going to be shooting at each other rather than just racing each other, and it just creates a feeling appropriate to the films it's based on, and it being a deck rather than a series of dice rolls on a table means you don't get repeats.
I'm learning Savage Worlds Adventure Edition (aka SWADE), and they have a chase system that uses playing cards. But from what I've read in the fan community, most people suggest just using the Dramatic Tasks system, which is basically just SWADE's take on skill challenges 😉
SWADE has a lot of tools to make for cinematic, pulp and tense situations, i seriously a great system for that purpose
The way I would run a chase would be to have a Runehammer 'roll-off': everyone involved in the chase keeps rolling their die until it comes up 20, the first one to do so achieves their goal (catch quarry, escape, etc). So now you have a timed competition, which is what makes chases exciting. For extra pressure you can add-in a stopwatch or board game hourglass. Another good idea is to treat a chase like an 'advanced test' from Fantasy Age--first one to meet their target wins.
I once had a chase in a game where we were running accross rooftops. Dragon ranger had her dragon pick up our kobold artificer, while our paladin picked up my wizard (who was barely conscious enough to cast spells without making arcana checks, so i was using spells like animate objects to cause roofing tiles to move, and wall of force to create temporary paths over large gaps in buildings) and our rogue plotted a path over the rooftops that we could escape througn (since our rangers favored terrain wasnt urban).
It was actually really fun, and insentivised working together with the current chase rules.
do they need improvement? oh yea absolutely. but if your party works together to keep moving while debilitating the chasers it works.
And this is why I just use the Call of Cthulhu chase rules. Takes a little adapting between systems, but it works well enough and my players like them better than the normal rules.
What's the difference? I keep meaning to get into Call of Cthulhu but I just haven't yet.
@@Lurklen Seth Skorkowsky has an entire video on it, but the short version is it's easy to track and interact with, and less prone to breaking down into slog in my experience compared to the D&D rules.
Was thinking the same. To elaborate more:
Chases basically reimagine the scenario cinematically as a line with some number of dots (just whatever seems right, they don't represent fixed distances or paths) and preestablished complications and barriers. Movement gets shrunk to usually about 1-2 scaling based on the slowest participant. Each dot costs 1 move, and if the runner(s) reach the end before the chaser(s) catch them, they escape.
Complications are minor issues that involve skill checks, succeeding gets you past clean and failing gets you past but costs movement Example: jumping a fence might be rolled for 'Jump' or Athletics in the D&D case, if you fail you got tripped up and now you lose 2 movement getting back up, which could be like 2 full rounds if you only had 1 movement.
Random complications can also be added at request, alternating between sides. So if the heroes request a complication for the monster chasing them, they can't do so again until the monster gives them a complication.
Barriers are just the same as complications but you don't get past on a failure.
Obviously you can get much more complicated than that if you want with branching paths and stuff.
@@ArcNeoMasato Thanks, I'll check that out.
As a GM who runs multiple different systems, I feel like the best Chase Rules out there has to belong to Call of Cthulhu. Those rules are amazing and lead to a cinematic experience as well as an abstracted one that is legitimately fun to play through. I need to come up with a way to convert those rules for my 5e group.
One thing I've done in chases, the target/pursuer moves half their speed on their turn and half on initiative count 20, this is to simulate the moments where you have made a bit of ground, JUST enough to go for a tackle or to cast a spell.
Woo Dorkness Rising clip!
I made my own chase rules after using these and finding them lacking. The chase table was great but the procedure was not. Good callout on making the complications on the start of the active person's turn. I changed it.
The chase rules in pathfinder 2 are basically similar, but at least they go all the way into making it a skill challenge inspired by 4e instead of asking you to use feet or passive perception or any of that other nonsense that doesn't make sense for that type of scene. I think my only issue with it was that it was hard for me to figure out how you'd apply bonuses if you did happen to get extra speed or were on a mount. That kind of thing I'd have to just do by hand. To be fair, 5e doesn't really cover that either as far as I can tell.
5E would just add it to your speed, and then the DM has to supply the context to the area of the chase. At some point you'd get far enough ahead that you'd be out of sight, or the chase ends as you lose them. The way they do it, it kind of feels like chases should be planned ahead of time instead of having a system to run them when they occur, making this set of rules pretty tricky to utilize. I haven't seen the chase rules for 2E yet, though I did pla through one as a character, it worked pretty well. At the end my aged ranger shook a goblin for making him run before breakfast.
From what i remember, the objective and the unspoken assumption of PF2E chases is that you don't just care about movement speed, but you are more concerned about overcoming obstacles using various skill checks, and the speed at which you and the other party involved in the chase move (represented by the number of obstacles that you have between the chasers and the chased). If i'm not mistaken, the gamemastery guide even says that the "chased starts X obstacles away from the chaser" and you basically end the chase when the two party involved are at the same obstacle.
I think that it's just a way to report the scene to the core assumption of the system (you roll a d20 and add your relevant modifiers) and, as the skill challenges in 4e were, to encourage and value the investment on different skills by the PCs. (both are pretty elegant solutions to deal with situations that the core system can't handle that well imho).
In this sense, a certain equipment/skill/feat of the character is useful for certain situations, and not for others.
Like, in your example, having a mount can give you a bonus or improve by one degree of success (so when you get a success, you critically succeed instead) towards athletics checks to push you forward or to overcome difficult terrain, or, depending on the mount, acrobatic checks or even survival checks (like, your mount is able to track creatures in the dark, or by scent, or something like that) ; is gonna do you little to persuade the rambling merchant that your party member just smashed the cart of to let you go without calling the guards.
Spycraft had a pretty decent Chase system, though the names of the maneuvers made it clear it was built for car chases not foot chases.
I hadn't really looked at this before. I really like your take on them.
Omg, at 6:21 I can't believe there's a clip from gamers 2 darkness rising. I thought I was like one of 5 people to see that movie
I'd say the passive check is a good idea, in that it does allow the quarry to hide and possibly reposition (I'd use the same for the players if roles were reversed). Then, when the players get their chance, they can roll the perception check to try & find where the quarry went.
When it comes to "Active vs Passive" Perception in the chase, you gotta remember Perception checks are an action (most of the time...sigh). They can actively do a perception check, but they can't haul ass while doing it (which makes sense). I think my real problem with chases is that I have to track the speed of everyone every turn. I do want faster characters to be rewarded, and slower characters to be challenged (this is why I think it's silly they've gotten rid of slower speeds for smaller characters), but I also don't know that I want to keep track of the tally every turn (though there may be no way to avoid that to some degree). It's a bit of a pain when I'm also trying to narrativize this whole scenario and track the NPC's.
I like skill challenges as a solution, but not totally, as there should still be an element of real physical representation. Chases should be somewhere between regular movement and the abstraction of a skill challenge. You want positioning and movement to matter more than in a skill challenge, but you don't want it to be super granular. I've run several chases now, and they're always a pain even when we have fun with them. I think somewhere between is a solution.
can't wait for the Fantasy Age post, really thinking of shifting to campaign of that
I haven't yet found a satisfying chase mechanic in a roleplaying game. Contests aren't satisfying because they're over with one or two opposed rolls and no complications. Strict movement isn't satisfying because it's determinative with no random elements. And as we know in a videogame a chase is satisfying if we're being chased and get away, or if we're chasing and catch our target. But TTRPGs don't always favor PCs in chase rules because it seems unfair, which it is. Combat is fairer. I think we're really looking for combat-like rules for chases. But I like the rules you came up with. The complications add a lot.
I bought the Chase Card Deck for PFe2 just to try out adapting them to 5e. Seems to need minimal extra work to make them work for a fun chase!
I feel like there might be an easy tweak for the complication rolls where ONLY the quarry rolls (and maybe it's done as a group if the PCs are the quarry) and the quarry can choose whether to take a risk (maybe an uneven risk in some cases) to lead the pursuer through the same danger or to avoid it based on their attributes and knowledge of same.
That’s a great solution!
It should also be possible for the quarry to create a complication, e.g. throwing money in the air near a group of beggars causing them to block the path as they scramble for coins; cut the ties securing a cart load of barrels. But then the quarry has to spend an action (perhaps a bonus action if something simple) to do so.
Kudos tu you for using Gravity Falls in your video....and the best chase scene I remember from a movie: Casino Royale.
I haven't had the chance to make use of a chasing challenge, but for what I can learn from you, maybe try to homebrew something that might work than using the rules from the book.
I appreciate the self call out on the Lion King shot. It was well done, very effective imagery.
Yay a reference to The Gamers! I so want a 4th one or that promised series...
Sees dog, instantly happy
Really excited to listen to this, I'm working on my own iteration of the 5e rules and strong Chase scene mechanics are going to be a big part of it!
Watching now, but for chases I really like the Chronicles of Darkness chase system so far. The actor with the Edge in a chase (which can change and has rules to determine it) sets the dice roll for that round of chasing. So maybe the runner ducks into a market alley, using Acrobatics to pull some Jackie Chan moves and try to gain ground, forcing the pursuer to match his roll.
If the chaser seizes the Edge, maybe they corral the runner into a straightaway, forcing both to roll Con check to keep up a sprint. First to a total number of successes gets the result they’re looking for, either escape or forcing close contact.
It keeps the rolls varied and adds a way for the chaser to influence the chase, I’m really fond of it.
That's a great system. I'll have to try it out next time I run a chase scene!
I was gona say I have no idea how we've missed this in our CoD game when we've been playing for months. Then I remember the last session involved an accidental double kidnapping .
Interesting, it sounds like a hybrid skill challenge. I'm gonna have to look at that.
If you look up the first adventure of the Eberron series Convergence Manifesto, it opens with something like BASE jumping with a Featherfall token rather than a parachute. You’re being initiated into an adventuring guild, and the test is to wait as long as possible before engaging the token. On the way down, there are randomized complications and skill checks to deal with them. It’s almost an inverse chase scene, but it shares the same structure of what could work on a regular one.
You could also use FATE dice to add some variance to speeds, with each + and - equaling 5’.
I see that Edge of the Empire CRB on your bookshelf there, and by my reckoning they've got a pretty decent chase mechanic in their vehicles section. Probably not much help for D&D players out of the box, but maybe worth a look if you're trying to streamline your existing ruleset.
I agree with your conclusion (Chase Rules bad), but I disagree with your analysis. I think the reason the Chase Rules fail is because the players are not making any choices. The whole point of a role playing game is to *play a role.* In other words, to make decisions as your character. And the chase rules don't let you do that. (I disagree with the skill challenge idea, too, but it at least lets players make *some* choices)
Great original video. I guess it's time to do the skill challenge video, huh?
skill challenges are the best rule for all kinds of random shit, my main 5e dm used them from the beginning and i've been using them in almost all of my games, regardless of system
Call of Cthulhu has some fun chase rules
I keep trying to run a chase, I've even created maps filled with obstacles and hiding spots etc with the intention of turning it into an intense game of hide and seek. Never got to use any of them though as the sorcerer in my party's first move is always to cast Hideous Laughter. He's even ended boss fights with it.
One day I'll get my chase scene...
Yeah, they can roll a Perception check, of course they can... but that takes an action, so they can't dash...
"You turn a corner, the quarry seemingly dissapeared, what do you do?"
"...um, can I search for them?"
"Sure, you can use your action to make a perception check".
"22"
"Yeah, you see the quarry past the crowd, across the street, headed down the dusty alleyway, but he seems to have made some headway during the time you spent looking".
Alternatively, they could've just kept dashing, and would've possibly found the quarry again by guessing the correct location... or, yeah, they might just lose them
9:45
Too soon. Too soon!
Lightning bolt has a range of 100 feet, Fireball has a range of 150 feet, Meteor swarm has a range of 1 mile etc. do i have line of sight to the quary then i might be more inclined to just cast a spell.
I'm baffled by the incongruity between the chase rules starting out essentially saying "chases are boring when you use strict movement/action economy rules" and then the very next section suggesting that you should still be using initiative, movement, and action rules just like in combat.
I don't even like to use initiative when running chase scenes. It's understood that everyone is running at the same time, why does it matter who acts first? Use skill challenges, spells, or other abilities to determine how well the quarry/pursuers are keeping up, and you can still introduce random hurdles. Or, even better, don't rely on random hurdles and instead choose hurdles ahead of time to throw at your players that are appropriate to the scene, or responsive to the decisions they're making! Just because the dice are right there in front of you doesn't mean you have to use them to randomly determine everything that happens in the game.
It works much better (albeit not without some adjustment) if the players are the ones being chased
You should check the chase rules for Call of Cthulhu, they're the gold standard amongst RPGs. Maybe there's some inspiration there to adapt something to DnD
Perception while chasing would be at disadvantage, no? Same as stealth while moving full speed?
Call of Cthulhu has great Chase rules.
Good afternoon from the Discord server!
Good discord from the afternoon server
I would recommend Call of Cthulhu or Savage Worlds for chase mechanics. They do it a lot better.
A quarry having to beat passive perception is highly favoring the players given how most monsters have a really bad passive perception most do not break 15, but a PC can take feats, stat increases, and use spells like pass without a trace to escape fairly easily. Given how most dark vision is 60 feet, it almost garentees they will get away at night, which is the point.
But using passive perception, the players do not know when they lose the Quarry, so less chance of metagaming. That is the whole point of passive scores. Players usually only mind this when they fail; you are letting the dice decide same as if they cast banish on your beholder and you are making a save. If it is a fair die, it does not matter who rolls it, make the pc's give you the d20 roll if it matters.
Rolling high on a table is not always better, even in the base player's handbook. This is not a modified ability, just a random complication, so a 7 is just the 7th item listed. I have never seen a player get upset about the 20th thing listed being better or worse than the 1st.
Biggest issue with the d&d chase mechanics is they are too dang long. You are still going in turn order, resolving this in concrete terms that require a large map, and faster characters will still win by default, it just takes more rounds to catch up. The complication table is set as a city by default, and the most likely place for the pc's to run is that overland random encounter chart whe you run into a t-rex in Chult because you rolled a 27 in this hex. The t-Rex can step over most obstacles listed.
Ayyyyyy that Dorkness Rising clip
Fitting given the nearing release of another 'legit' D&D film to flop while there's a veritable spread of independent fan efforts made over the last number of decades
Lol the timing of it was very funny
Wow. Someone wrote that and nobody said... Anything?
I've been DMing for a while now, and I have still never actually read the DM guide. And at this point I think it's has helped me more than not.
There is a lot of great stuff in the book, but some of the optional rules are… well, there’s a reason they’re not the default rules lol
@@SupergeekMike My question automatically becomes "if it's not good enough to be the actual rule... Why bother having it in there?"
There's a lot of good stuff in there, but there's some stuff that isn't great. I'd still advise giving it a read, even if you don't like all the designer's solutions to a problem, there's good fodder for solutions to problems that people often bring up about 5E.
It might be fun to run a chase like you would a gambling scenario. So there's a risk and reward with the players actions. When you hit a complication, they can choose to risk more and get there faster, or risk less and get there slower. thoughts?
Oooh I could dig that!
2:18 dog moment
Yeah I had a chase sequence in my game recently but I just threw out the rules imediately
Honestly, I'm a *big fan* of players rolling to influence the next person down the line, both as a player and as a GM.
But I'm also a Shadowrun player, so, hey, what do I know?
Lol fair enough! I’m genuinely glad some folks have gotten good use out of the rules, I personally find that they fall short but I’m glad you’ve gotten good use out of them ☺️
These rules seem to assume the players are the quarry every time which is. Often the case? But not always. It's very shortsighted
That may be more based on how I presented them, the rules are (arguably) a bit more neutral than that. I just often find that it’s the players who are chasing after NPCs lol
*LK PTSD flashbacks*
MIIIIIIKE
Too soon, bro... Too soon.
Yeah, D&D5e's chase rules leave a lot to be desired. That said, I've always been a fan of Call of Cthulhu's chase rules! Even though they're arguably just as rules heavy, they manage to fulfill the fantasy of running away from something horrific and getting caught by an obstacle, all while the monster closes in. Super great mechanic, though, maybe only good for CoC's system. I've yet to find a seamless way of porting those rules into D&D5e.
Every time people explain why players generally don't run from combat in 5e, the chase rules come up, and it drives me nuts because they're not good for that either. All spells and attacks still work, and monsters have higher constitution than most pcs, so the chase rules don't even do "running from combat" well.
The tables are fun, but I feel like after 2-3 chases in a campaign the limited number of complications given would get repetitive.
Anyway, it's a shame the 4e-as-written implementation of skill challenges wasn't great, and that the community largely rejected 4e, because "just do a skill challenge" is actually often the right answer.
DOG!
2:20
DOG
Hi Algorithm, I may not have anything in particular to say, but that doesn't mean I don't think this video was good, so please make sure other people see it. Thanks.
Yay, Gravity Falls!
Yes sir, you are a bad person 😂😂😂 for casters, I'd consider their challenge met if they ran in place irl and sung their favorite song's hook, then let them roll damage/effect. It's stupid, and probably a one time gag, but fun at the right tables.
I find it hilarious that Mike's "if you're only going to change one thing" factually has no impact on the outcome. A d20 without modifiers is a d20 without modifiers, period. Not saying it's a bad take, but it's funny to hear the blatant gambler's fallacy of so many D&D players discussed in this way.
2 3 5 7 11 13 17, Complications should only occur wwhen you roll a prime number.