BUTCHERED Jeep Timing Job?? (Part 1 - P0018 Correlation)
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- Опубликовано: 20 июл 2023
- Owner drove his 2014 Jeep Wrangler V6 about 4 hours from NJ to get a guaranteed DIAGNOSIS on a persistent *P0018 Cam-Crank Correlation DTC*.
The Jeep is in FAIL-SAFE mode where all VVT functionality is disabled.
This P0018 appeared AFTER a local shop installed new rockers and timing chains.
Obviously they messed something up...but WHAT??
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Just to eliminate a really unlikely cause, you could check the wire colors on the cam sensor connector and see if the signal wires for the two cams might be switched on the bank with the problem. The cam signal phasing might be different between the two cams. There is no logical reason for anyone to touch them, but you're not dealing with a logical problem. Possibly the connector came apart when someone unplugged it and it was repaired wrong.
Ooh interesting theory!! I like it 😁
LOL, I was thinking the exact same thing. I may have missed it while trying to do too many things at once, but also thought 'maybe' that that side is off one tooth at the crank?
Another head scratcher for sure. Well, assuming the connectors are all correct I would guess that the reluctors or the magnets inside are out of wack which would be doubtful if they are original. So what does that leave if everything else is correct? The ecm? Interesting. 👍👍🇺🇸
@@brianw8963 I haven't watched the video a second time yet to see what new parts were changed, but I suspect the cams on the problem side are wrong, possibly the part numbers are for the other bank. Hopefully we'll find out tomorrow.
I'd look at those valve covers very closely. Is there supposed to be some plastic washer or rubber gromet there, and that's why the sensor is falling down too deep into it's mounting hole? I think you're onto something about the depth of the sensor. I would think that maybe it's a sheared pin behind the phasors, but the odds of them both doing it are very low IMO. Plus it would likely be running much worse. Should be interesting to see the outcome.
The backward facing alternator always makes me think if Chrysler actually forgot it was needed until they assembled a few hundred.
...or the OEM got a large run of alternators built backwards at a discount...🤔🤣
I noticed the same 😅
That’s very funny stuff lol
Pretty more funy😅
And the fact you have to remove the bracket to get the belt on is insane
This is a great case study - very challenging . Ivan your diagnostic process is amazing ! I’m racking my brain to get some other possible causes. Gonna watch a second time and track along with EXTRA concentration to all your coaching / remarks . This is better than Netflix !! 👊🏼
Hi from OZ, I always look forward to your challenging fault finding video's, this is from a grand cherokee manual, same engine, not sure how you would check this without replacing the camshafts, "CAUTION: The magnetic timing wheels must not come in contact with magnets (pickup tools, trays, etc.) or any other strong magnetic field. This will
destroy the timing wheels ability to correctly relay camshaft position to
the camshaft position sensor."
Compare the cam sensors to see how far down each one sits. The oddball might be made wrong or even for a different engine or year of vehicle.
That dual sensor didn't look right and appears to have come in contact with the reluctor wheels. Good one Ivan!
Chrysler Pentajunk never ceases to amaze
My guess is the VVT solenoid is the culprit since It's the only piece that can change the cam timing.
A car you did had the same issue, piece of plastic in the VVT solenoid throwing the timing out of whack.
A interesting issue! And we are saying that the sensor is OEM so it can't actually be sitting to low (or too high) in its spot! Humm. Can't wait for part 2!
Ivan, I'm scratching my head along with yours. Looking forward to Part 2. Thanks for Sharing! 😲🥴🙃🙂
Ivan, I'd check the cam sensor depth on the cover. Maybe it's possible the sensor is sitting too high/low relative to the other bank.
Could it be the valve cover? I don't know about those sensor having some kind of adjustment which be a convenient fix though. Even still, what was that gray stuff of the reluctance wheels.
WoW, what an interesting case study😍
I think it's a flashing issue, bcuz some manufacturer's will recommend this in their TSB's related to timing issue's, that if a timing code has prolonged in the ECU there might be a chance that after replacing all the part's you've to reflash it to get it cleared.
But, waiting for part 2😍
Thanks for sharing BRO Stay Safe😍
could there possibly be an O ring seal on the valve cover where the dual cam sensor lands? If it was missing, that would drop the sensor deeper between the cams, changing the readings on both and maybe causing some contact between the sensor and reluctor wheels. just a guess. Love your channel Ivan. I'm from Big Flats, near where your parents live
Wow, that is hard one is the timing is perfect! But still fussing about the signal crap! That went over my head lol. I'll wait for part 2 lol. Great video Ivan! Be glad it's not transverse mounted lol.
Oh, I thought i knew everything 15 years ago, Then i learned the scope. I realized i really didnt know crap, and i got much much better. The Scope Ivan has is the best of the best. Picoscopes are the standard by which all are judged and fall short. I have several oscilloscopes, I use them often. If you are a tech, learn it.
Hello from Sweden Ivan, waiting for part 2, its like waiting on next episode of The tv serie Macahans in the 70ths 😊
I’ve seen a wrangler have this exact issue before, p0018, rough running only when cold, then would run fine after warm up. verified mechanical timing, command vs actual etc. the issue was incorrect oil viscosity used by customer.
Mopar recommends 5w-20, customer had mobile 1, 10w30 and really thick Lucas oil stabilizer. Flushed the system, replaced with OE filter, used mopar branded 5w-20 part #68518202aa. Cleared all DTCs, wrangler has been back in for other services but the p0018 never returned.
Height of sensor position at reluctor wheel could be an issue too. If the sensors were replaced with aftermarket I could see them being 1-2 mm in height difference.
Looking at that cam sensor design and mounting location, my next step would be to look at the valve cover, valve cover gasket and all related mounting hardware, including the sensor hardware, and cross reference part numbers by VIN for the valve cover, gasket and cams if they were replaced, as Mopar just loves their mid-year model tweaks.
This could potentially be a situation where fastener torque on the valve cover makes a difference, too.
As always, my post comes with the "internet speculation" advisory. ;)
Im leaning towards something affecting the height of that dual cam sensor. Maybe the valve cover gasket. Also id try to verify the trigger wheel is lined up correctly. We had a gm recently brand new cam with a damaged tone wheel.
Looking forward to part 2!
This going to be a good one thanks for sharing.
I had a weird one once only affected one cam and mine was more erratic on the scope. Was a different motor not a Chrysler but mine was a cam bore allowing the cam to wiggle or should I say walk around. Was cheaper to put a whole motor in it. Ford fiesta it was. Looking forward to part 2.
Love your work Ivan, I hope one of the cams is incorrect as a smaller reluctor would affect timing. A part number should be visible on them somewhere.
Aftermarket valve cover gaskets causing sensor assy to sit higher in relation to the cam. Love the content!
I believe the sensor would be sitting low not high. If you think about the intake and exhaust cam rotation if the sensor was high the intake wave would be seen first and the exhaust seen later we have the opposite on are hands here. If you fallow
Just like you said before start with the way more expensive OEM parts and wait eons to get them and go from there. I see the not factory oem spec chinese parts becoming a big issue today. Maybe you might have to shim the sensor to get it to sit right but if the cams aren't out of alignment and the chain hasn't been installed wrong and the engine can do basic timing, then the sensor is not reporting the correct values to the computer.
My bet is on shifted tone wheel on cams, mopar makes a tool to check for it. waiting for next part! Cheers.
Beats the hell out of me. I have confidence you'll figure it out.
Wow…got me thinkin. Cant wait for part two!!
Being a well known issue of shifted reluctors I'm thinking thats what is happening here. Even if the shop put in cams, I doubt they actually used OE and two there has been times brand new ones have been off somewhat rare but does happen. Will be interesting to see the outcome.
This is definitely an interesting one. Its amazing what that scope is able to show. Guess you can't really fault the other shop if all they had to work with was the normal timing marks on the cams. Looking forward to part 2 . Wondering what shimming the cam sensor would do? Just have to wait and see what you discover.
I think you might have touched on the issue. I was thinking all the way that it's a sensor/ reluctor problem.
The code in question is for a particular cam there is a cheat sheet “tsb” do too early manufacturing whoas , phasers, sensor,and even wiring . I’ve seen phasers on wrong cams and cams in wrong locations and that an only happen wit left/drivers side head if cams are swapped .recheck your mechanical then chase what diag sheet says . Yes the dept that wrote Manuel labeled it in the incorrect order. The issues are usaually one cam was a tooth off or the cam was layed on a magnetic tray an messed up encoder wheel have even seen them dented just a little or turned ! It’s a low bid design really
Great work in showing how to properly fishing with being less intrusive ,love these videos good job
Wow you really get the weird ones!
This is a good one. I don't think that the cams got swapped around because if that was the case, the problem would be on both banks. And it's not. The cam sensor might be an issue. Could the seal for the sensor be thicker or thinner, thus effecting the sensor depth? Unlikely, but possible. It's hard to say. I'm certainly looking forward to part 2.
These sensors bottom out on the head.
I just did valve cover gaskets on the same engine 2 days ago. There are no shims, there are no "O" rings inside where the sensor seats. The bolt goes down through the middle of the sensor into the cylinder head. This is perplexing.
Hmmm. Isn't the sensor mounted in the valve cover? So a difference in gasket thickness would throw it off?
Verify the chain marks, I had one from a reputable supplier and the mark for the crank was in the wrong location. Was on a 2009 dodge caliber, cheers Ivan
maybe theres a back and front to the chain, so if it was backwards, the timing marks would be opposite ?
Check if BANK 2 Cams are timed correct to crankshaft?
Everything else you checked:
-Cam sensors seems to work
-Cam timing in reference to each other seems ok
The value shown in degrees is the relation between crankshaft and cams correct?
IVAN, Before even start watching gave it a thump up because I know will learn/good info will be presented cheeeeeeers and thanks.
I love the head-scratchers. My gut tells me the fix will be easy once discovered.
I had also thought about a weak connection in the harness for that reluctor, like failing internal connection. The issue did remain driver's side, right? Was relieved the cams weren't swapped, though. 🤔🤔🤔
I’d do in cylinder pressure check,both banks,to check the camb timing,the pcm is seeing data,if the cylinder checks doesn’t agree with the pcm data,have the mag pickups been moved,very interesting diagnostic,I’m fascinated by the power of the scope,and following the data.
How loose are the phasers to the cams? With 'Butchered' in the title, I suspect a dumb mistake with the installation. Its interesting the cam error PID jumps around a lot on bank 1 but not at all on bank 2... Can''t wait for part 2!
Maybe you're correct about the Cam Sensor. Where it sits on the engine, is it missing a small gromet? ( To raise it up a tad )
Try to clean the two magnetic rings, as they may be magnetically contaminated, & clean, & maybe....if it's ok to do...demagnetize the rear dual magnetic sensor, seems it has grey debris there.
I was sure that the chinesium sensor would be the problem but after you swapped them over the problem did not go away.Could that chinesium sensor had be touching the reluctor wheels & leaving some small trace on them which is altering the signal ? Cheers mate be very interested in the final result.
Mis-degreed Bank 2 chain position at the crankshaft sprocket?
Interesting.. The timing does look spot on and the camshafts show LE - LI , so they are positioned correctly and highly doubt both reluctor wheels slipped . Everything looks good. Something must be wrong with the vvt solenoids causing the phasers to get stuck in wrong postion once the engine starts. I have always used the camshaft holder tools working on these pentastars, never had to remove the front timing cover when replacing the camshafts, so not sure why they did all that nonsense.
These cams tone rings are magnetic. If you so much as run a magnet by them it will demagnetize the tone ring. It's possible to run a magent by one or more and change the output signal.
For sure. But the signal was perfect, just shifted slightly 😉
@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics Yeah. As soon as i saw the waveforms I thought that cant be it. I can't think of any other way that you'd have those signals other than the tone rings being shifted. Everything is in time. I mean you already know what's wrong with it. But I'm watching thinking "how"? Unless the cams themselves got reversed. But the cams have markings on them too that indicate intake and exhaust.
@@edwinlomonaco6754 exactly. Visual inspection showed everything was just perfect! 😅
My bet is on the cam sensor sitting too low causeing the intake wave to show up early and the exhaust to show up later. May be caused by valve cover hight possible causeing the sensor to be closer to the head then normal.
I've had similar issues with Ford Transits that have had engine swaps. Donor engine a few years older than the original vehicle. The CAM sensors pick up the peak part of the lobe, the pointy bit of the lobe if you will. On the waveform the first CAM signal transition starts slightly too early and the second transition is too late. Obviously there are just two transitions as its just picking up the peak of the lobe. Basically the dip in the signal is too wide. Raising the sensor pulls it away from the lobe thus narrowing the dip and makes the transitions occur later and earlier respectively. Putting a washer underneath the sensor to hold it off by about 1/3mm gets rid of the fault code. Sounds like a similar situation. Awaiting part 2 👍
Hi, I had a trouble like that where the signals didn't align and the cams and the phasers where all right so I made a tool with a socket and I weld a little notch on it, which help me move the wheel with the magnets and it's been all right since then. And I got rid of the trouble codes. Would you dare to try?
Youre doing all of your testing with the actuators unplugged right, in case the computer is reporting wrong, or the cam buttons are an issue?
Where did you get all your knowledge? I like how you walk us through your diagnostics Ivan.
Hum, I'd say it could be the height of the dual sensor or reluctor wheel that's taking in account that the cams are right.
Are the cam sensors different/specific to the left and right bank? Could it be you have two bank one cam sensors, so even swapping, bank two cam sensor would still be rotated 180°?
Does it use 2 separate CRANK sensors??? If not, I’d be leaning towards the new chain and guides as well as the phasers. Are they locked in place with the engine off??? Peace
This came up on my RUclips feed this morning. ironically, I just did a valve job on a 2012 minivan and it runs great now, but all the cams are showing about 10 degrees of discrepancy with the crank. The desired and actual positions are spot on... within a few degrees according to the data PID.
The engine appeared virgin, and I replaced the plastic timing components, but otherwise, I used the same chains and gears, etc. There's no excess chain stretch according to the tensioners.
Could the 33 teeth be divided into 360 degrees which gives 10.9 degrees? I guess that depends on how the data is extrapolated. I never removed the primary chain, but replaced the tensioner and guide, and I am pretty sure that it never skipped a tooth.
Maybe all the cam reluctors shifted, and the head milling and new guides put the data PID over the edge to set a code?
86,000 miles and needed a valve job. I am honestly about to call it quits with Fiat/Daimler stuff.
This much I would know to do if a cam sensor had to be replaced. If it has two of them, I'd be sure to match them up from the same maker (OEM) so if they decided to replace one with brand X, I'd recommend replacing both of them AND I would save the old, both for the owners parts box.
It's hard to know what could be the problem without knowing the parts that would have been replaced...
On the other hand, I just have 2 questions regarding:
1 - are the cam covers and cam sensors the same between bank 1 and bank 2 ?
2 - can the cam sensor be turned 180° ? I'm thinking of a signal inversion between the 2 camshaft, but it will be easy to check with the picoscope and a magnet to be sure the camshaft signals are arriving at the right place in the computer...
Dr Cliff and Physician Hanger, my friend; nice one Tell the Jeep customer he's nearly had you doing the whole job again.
Properly
Did you have cam sensor in magnetic parts tray?
YOUR THE BEST!
I think you should scope a cylinder pressure transducer. That would tell you if the cam is really off, or just reading off. (It is minimally invasive.) ;)
Great suggestion! Compression is even and engine runs super smooth 😉
@@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics Which makes me suspect the sensor end.
@Ivan i would have a better kiccker for you
engine vibrations with no error codes
- spark present no issues
- fuell present no issues
- timing backed by -2 on all 4 cams (v8)
god knows why its wibrating but... i know the machine shop redoing heads took more material form one head vs the other and probably thats causing the vibrations (you can kind of see it on the scope but not really)
now they made the head 'trapezoid' shape along the side so the last cylinder has more compression than the first one on the bank. and ofc. the other head is a bit better shape. How they did it i have no clue... but it shows if you do comp ratio check using some fluid and syringe - That's a wild one man :)
Since you said if you would lift the sensor a little the degrees would change is it possible that they used a valve cover gasket that was the wrong thickness? That would definitely change where the sensor would read the reluctor wheels.
WEIRD issue for sure.
What about the timing chain tensioner guide feet or any of the other guides/feet???
I was thinking the tone wheel in back of cam
Hi Ivan, is there a sealing surface that might have changed hight from OE. Valve cover gasket, any sort of shim or seal that goes between the sensor and cover.
Hey Will! I was sure that was the smoking gun, but there are no shims or spacers for that cam sensor, it bottoms out directly on the head casting ;)
Ivan, is it possible the reluctor wheel came into contact with a magnet and scrambled the resistance on the wheel? Interesting case.
I wonder if it's possible they use parts for the wrong model year or something. Parts that would fit, but have some slight differences?
Are the valve covers swapped . Left bank on right and right bank on th e left?
Could a spacer under the cam position sensor be missing?
Could it be the valve cover or the gasket that the cam sensor sets in? If thats what dictates how high or low the sensor sets in relation to the cams.
is the cam cover oe as the sensor installed height looks potentially the issue or a distorted cover
Have you measured the mounting base to tip length of both sensors? Have you double checked the part numbers? Same sensor, or, different part numbers?
What was that pen mark on the exhaust cam reluctor wheel relating to?
Time for some STP oil treatment, and less idling ? This one has a oil pressure gauge? For the 2 stage oil pump debacle
Could it possibly be off at the crank ? Idk I’m a push rod v8 kinda guy
There's no way both cams have the same problem in the opposite direction but the same amount. It looks like lifting it by a tiny amount would make it the same as the other bank. Can't see the valve cover but it looks like a missing washer would cover the distance. Or maybe somethings wrong with the cover itself?
Is it possible to swap the two covers, and they have different height where the sensor mounts?
If the cams were separated from the phasers, could they be swapped?
Long live pushrods.
Nice Gravely hat!
Was the crank/camshaft relearn procedure done?
Are the cam sensors the same or are they ment to be different part numbers
I'm going way out on a limb here. I don't know these engines and what kind of bolts hold down the valve cover. But per haps a thinner valve cover gasket was used on that side.
Possible stretched chain? Some of those cheap Chinese chains have stretched on me in the past. Like, immediately after running a new rebuild up to temp
What if the chain (s) are a link off due to size and or tensioner is not adjusted correctly?
If one of the cam sensors was replaced with a non-OEM one then the sensors could have been designed with different sensitivities. If one sensor has a slightly different sensitivity to trigger or even a delay in the state change then that could cause what you see in the graphs. Might need two of the same sensors... But the magnets on the camshafts could be causing this as well... or the wrong camshafts were used...
Missing gasket on the sensor or valve cover? idk what would cause a sensor to be so far out like that if it is not in the correct physical position...
could it be a missing or wrong thickness o-ring on the sensor..
At this point I'd have checked the cmp signals again this time with the vvti actuators unplugged :) then as someone else suggest, swap the exh & intake signal wires, if those two turn out to be fine, then you might actually have two shifted reloctor wheels 🫠
If raising and lowering the cam sensor can change the waveform... How about valve cover gasket thickness as an issue?
We ar me assuming bank 1 and bank 2 have the same sensor. The position of those sensors will be critical. The height is also critical.
Find out how many spare parts the other shop had leftover when they finished the timing job and you may find something interesting.
Cam has shifted clockwise or,counter clockwise on the cam gears/relucotor wheels somehow. Range Rover Evoques do this exact thing. Somehow the cams have managed to be off 1 tooth of rotation. Just my guess. Though I’m only 1/2 way through video at moment.
When somethings difficult to see, just take a picture with your phone and look at that. 😌
So the degree of cam shaft phasing is stated in reference to crankshaft rotation, 720 degrees divided by 33 teeth?
Could the pcm be reading it wrong?? Lol!! Got me!
Contact Keith, see if he has any input. Also, are cam shafts OEM or aftermarket? Is the crank gear timing mark lining up with cam timing marks?