Great points. I guess that the biggest difference from kpop fandom and others that I ve participate is taking idols as 1 avatars of their own (fan ) values projection. 2 being competitive / defensive about it as if any deviation of this avatar. may be by the artist them selfs or any other discourse, must be fighted with. I personaly dont get were the competitive side comes from. Awards and ranking are limited, but it dont have the same consequeces as they do in sports or schollarship programs. But I dont take part / understand on deep / toxic fandom of popular sports either were behaviours partterns look to be the same even with a larger age range and worst cases of mass violence against other fans.
Yea, I feel like the toxic fandom thing can really stem from many things. Parasocialism is a major thing that I discussed in the video but also maybe it could also be a identity issue where the sports group or kpop group is a decent sized part of their identity and so negativity in any sense can almost feel like an insult to the person and hence the toxicity. Awards and rankings really don't mean anything besides being a flexing competition which certain people feel like they need to compete to win these things to validate themselves and their group / identity (based on my above statement). I feel like the value of awards have been so diluted because it's never about artistic merit and musical impact anymore. It's a "who's got the biggest fanbase" competition instead.
I always like how you deliver your points! Btw, I have a video idea if you ever want one: I'm curious if the survival show Peak Time truly made improvements to its contestants' careers. After all, the show aimed to give more exposure to less-known boy groups. I know that some groups gain huge followings after the show, like Vanner who achieved >100k sales in the first week for their first comeback after the show. Or DKB with 110% increased album sales in June 2023 comeback. And I have a hunch that Jongup's appearance in the show indirectly pushed BAP members to their recent comeback. Back when the show had just ended, it seemed like everyone saw the benefit of joining the show. But after a year, I wonder if there are any significant long-lasting impacts left...
Thanks, I hope the video was a decent example of vocalizing criticism without being aggressive or deviating from the focal points. That's kinda how I hope people could speak when discussion Kpop but looking from the outside, it's really never like that. Ohh great idea. It's kinda like the male version of my Queendom videos. Didn't really watch it but I saw some clips here and there. Defs will add that to my list and see what's the vibe. Thanks for the suggestion.
I would love a restrospective on the Fatou and Leia situation. I didn't watch the documentary but dearyoongi's breakdown of all parts of it (including Jessi and Cravity's story). Her video showed that although that scandal played a significant part in why that lineup of Blackswan didn't work out, it also showed that how the Korean members handled the situation (particularly the leader) played a part as well.
Yea, defs would be interesting to make a video considering how outdated my older blackswan video is in comparison how relatively thriving they are now. Defs don't want to regurgitate what others are saying about this so will need to see whether I can bring something else to this discussion. If not, it might just be better to watch other people's commentary on it.
Heavy on the entitlement certain kpop fans have, like i remember a few weeks ago bangchan told stays to stop telling him what to do on "bubble" and they were PISSED whining about how hurt their feelings were, saying insane bs like"he always treats i-stays unfairly", and basically indirectly saying fuck him like 😭😭
Yea, that's kinda wild. It really ties into both you don't really know idols like that because see how Bangchan wants to use bubble differently from what the fans may want him to communicate whatever. And then also see how these fans expect perfectionism to the point where the idols can't be authentic. They don't really care for authenticity and value furthering this narrative that they have built up for the idol.
I don’t think debuting minors would ever change. It has been the case right from the beginning, with boa debuting at 13. Besides, it’s clear how marketable it is seeing the success of newjeans and how people absolutely adore them because they’re refreshing, adorable teenagers. Which brings me to my next point. It really irks me how netizens pick and choose when the age of an idol is a valid argument. For example, everyone felt so bad for the newjeans girlie when they complained about how bang pd don’t greet them back. Like oh how petty can bang be, they’re just girls!! But apparently when lsf eunchae puts stickers on her staff’s items she’s considered shameless? But complaining about expecting the ceo of your large corporation to recognise you by name isn’t? Eunchae is also a teenager, in fact, she’d still be in the maknae line if she was in newjeans instead!! she’s doing what teenager do.. I definitely remember putting stickers or writing my name on my friends’ belongings at that age?? It’s just so frustrating. And exhausting. I’ve been a kpop fan for 15 years and this is the first time I actually feel like the toxicity is getting old /:
Yea, I definitely don't think it will change for sure. We haven't seen any impactful boycotts relating to this issue to imply the potential decision changing from companies. Plus I also briefly mention but kinda don't really elaborate the idea of minors in the training systems. Like If there's debuting as minors, imagine them going through the hurdles that we've seen in all these kpop documentaries as minors that probs aren't even in high school. Yea, your next point is a defs a case of selectivism for sure. There's never a case of treating everyone on the same playing field becasue their is so much biasies that influence how people perceive these issues. That's kinda why I can't really take many kpop discourse as seriously.
I like what you’re saying for your second point but it’s opposite for me. I hate when people use the excuse of “they are only a minor or whatever age” to deflect their idols mistake. Like at a certain age of being a minor even if you don’t know everything you should still use critical thinking and know when something you just did was right or wrong and the fans trying to deflect like just because the person is young means they didn’t know any better when that’s not always the case and now your just given that idol a scapegoat to use for whatever bad decisions they decide to do.
Yea, that kinda adds to the whole minor discussion in which idol minors really have to navigate so much more in comparison to the life experience. It just really puts into question whether we should be putting them in a spotlight like that at all if it could lead to issues like these. That's very similar to the whole expectations and navigation of other controversial issues like appropriation and offensive racial comments in regards to idols that may not have been exposed to the culture that is being attacked. I can see how regardless of intent, it may ne wrong and thus theres a form of accountability required to learn and frow from it. However, the whole coddling coming from extreme fans who try to justify it just kinda don't help. Like we can allow for nuance and understanding that there awareness could just not be there but that shouldn't just absolve the issue completely.
The more i think about it, the more i realize that Kpop is just a huge conflict of interest
I'm sure it's probably everywhere, but this culture has some mental issues, and infighting seems to be the norm.
Yea, a lot of things really don't add up and so that's why I feel like it makes no sense for people to gatekeep and moral police anyone really.
Great points.
I guess that the biggest difference from kpop fandom and others that I ve participate is taking idols as 1 avatars of their own (fan ) values projection.
2 being competitive / defensive about it as if any deviation of this avatar.
may be by the artist them selfs or any other discourse, must be fighted with.
I personaly dont get were the competitive side comes from. Awards and ranking are limited, but it dont have the same consequeces as they do in sports or schollarship programs.
But I dont take part / understand on deep / toxic fandom of popular sports either were behaviours partterns look to be the same even with a larger age range and worst cases of mass violence against other fans.
very on point!
Yea, I feel like the toxic fandom thing can really stem from many things. Parasocialism is a major thing that I discussed in the video but also maybe it could also be a identity issue where the sports group or kpop group is a decent sized part of their identity and so negativity in any sense can almost feel like an insult to the person and hence the toxicity.
Awards and rankings really don't mean anything besides being a flexing competition which certain people feel like they need to compete to win these things to validate themselves and their group / identity (based on my above statement). I feel like the value of awards have been so diluted because it's never about artistic merit and musical impact anymore. It's a "who's got the biggest fanbase" competition instead.
you’re making points
Thanks
I always like how you deliver your points! Btw, I have a video idea if you ever want one: I'm curious if the survival show Peak Time truly made improvements to its contestants' careers. After all, the show aimed to give more exposure to less-known boy groups. I know that some groups gain huge followings after the show, like Vanner who achieved >100k sales in the first week for their first comeback after the show. Or DKB with 110% increased album sales in June 2023 comeback. And I have a hunch that Jongup's appearance in the show indirectly pushed BAP members to their recent comeback. Back when the show had just ended, it seemed like everyone saw the benefit of joining the show. But after a year, I wonder if there are any significant long-lasting impacts left...
Thanks, I hope the video was a decent example of vocalizing criticism without being aggressive or deviating from the focal points. That's kinda how I hope people could speak when discussion Kpop but looking from the outside, it's really never like that.
Ohh great idea. It's kinda like the male version of my Queendom videos. Didn't really watch it but I saw some clips here and there. Defs will add that to my list and see what's the vibe. Thanks for the suggestion.
I would love a restrospective on the Fatou and Leia situation. I didn't watch the documentary but dearyoongi's breakdown of all parts of it (including Jessi and Cravity's story). Her video showed that although that scandal played a significant part in why that lineup of Blackswan didn't work out, it also showed that how the Korean members handled the situation (particularly the leader) played a part as well.
💯💯💯
Yea, defs would be interesting to make a video considering how outdated my older blackswan video is in comparison how relatively thriving they are now. Defs don't want to regurgitate what others are saying about this so will need to see whether I can bring something else to this discussion. If not, it might just be better to watch other people's commentary on it.
Ngl I’m a victim of hating minors debuing but I like their music 😅
Don't worry, I feel like most people are like this. I mean that's the one thing that I know for sure that I'm guilty of.
Heavy on the entitlement certain kpop fans have, like i remember a few weeks ago bangchan told stays to stop telling him what to do on "bubble" and they were PISSED whining about how hurt their feelings were, saying insane bs like"he always treats i-stays unfairly", and basically indirectly saying fuck him like 😭😭
Yea, that's kinda wild. It really ties into both you don't really know idols like that because see how Bangchan wants to use bubble differently from what the fans may want him to communicate whatever. And then also see how these fans expect perfectionism to the point where the idols can't be authentic. They don't really care for authenticity and value furthering this narrative that they have built up for the idol.
I don’t think debuting minors would ever change. It has been the case right from the beginning, with boa debuting at 13. Besides, it’s clear how marketable it is seeing the success of newjeans and how people absolutely adore them because they’re refreshing, adorable teenagers.
Which brings me to my next point. It really irks me how netizens pick and choose when the age of an idol is a valid argument. For example, everyone felt so bad for the newjeans girlie when they complained about how bang pd don’t greet them back. Like oh how petty can bang be, they’re just girls!! But apparently when lsf eunchae puts stickers on her staff’s items she’s considered shameless? But complaining about expecting the ceo of your large corporation to recognise you by name isn’t? Eunchae is also a teenager, in fact, she’d still be in the maknae line if she was in newjeans instead!! she’s doing what teenager do.. I definitely remember putting stickers or writing my name on my friends’ belongings at that age??
It’s just so frustrating. And exhausting. I’ve been a kpop fan for 15 years and this is the first time I actually feel like the toxicity is getting old /:
Yea, I definitely don't think it will change for sure. We haven't seen any impactful boycotts relating to this issue to imply the potential decision changing from companies. Plus I also briefly mention but kinda don't really elaborate the idea of minors in the training systems. Like If there's debuting as minors, imagine them going through the hurdles that we've seen in all these kpop documentaries as minors that probs aren't even in high school.
Yea, your next point is a defs a case of selectivism for sure. There's never a case of treating everyone on the same playing field becasue their is so much biasies that influence how people perceive these issues. That's kinda why I can't really take many kpop discourse as seriously.
I like what you’re saying for your second point but it’s opposite for me. I hate when people use the excuse of “they are only a minor or whatever age” to deflect their idols mistake. Like at a certain age of being a minor even if you don’t know everything you should still use critical thinking and know when something you just did was right or wrong and the fans trying to deflect like just because the person is young means they didn’t know any better when that’s not always the case and now your just given that idol a scapegoat to use for whatever bad decisions they decide to do.
Yea, that kinda adds to the whole minor discussion in which idol minors really have to navigate so much more in comparison to the life experience. It just really puts into question whether we should be putting them in a spotlight like that at all if it could lead to issues like these.
That's very similar to the whole expectations and navigation of other controversial issues like appropriation and offensive racial comments in regards to idols that may not have been exposed to the culture that is being attacked. I can see how regardless of intent, it may ne wrong and thus theres a form of accountability required to learn and frow from it. However, the whole coddling coming from extreme fans who try to justify it just kinda don't help. Like we can allow for nuance and understanding that there awareness could just not be there but that shouldn't just absolve the issue completely.