You can also DELAY your sequel to keep tension high. Butcher seems to do this a lot with Dresden where the poor guy just doesn't get a chance to breathe as the hits just keep coming. And then he forces himself to stop (or gets knocked unconscious) and has a talk with himself (or Bob or Karrin or Michael) about wtf is ACTUALLY going on.
Great video, but I kind of wish you had used red for scenes and blue for sequels, red makes me think of action and blue makes me think of contemplation. Regardless this was very helpful thanks
Red for "heat up." Blue for "cool down." I was a bit confused at first because I thought that was what he was doing. "He's talking about scenes. Why is he laying so many sequels." 🤣 assume --> ass-u-me
I didn't know the term but I was using them because I naturally felt it's too much for the reader to have hundreds of events one after another. Even too many interesting events become boring.
Bow Tie Writer, I have a question - I'm working my way through Robert McKee and Bickham and Swain, and my question is about SCENES ending in a DISASTER. You and Bickham/Swain seem to suggest that ALL scenes should end in a disaster. McKee however talks about every scene having a "turning point", where the "value charge" of the scene reverses, from either positive to negative or negative to positive. Which I interpret to mean - things seem good at the start of the scene, but BOOM the turning point happens at the end of the scene and the good is reversed to bad, the hero is in trouble. Or the reverse: a scene starts out in a bad place for the hero, but the turning point brings about a reversal where things are looking good for the hero. McKee argues that scenes should always alternate: + to -- , then -- to + and so on. The reason he gives for this is, too many scenes in a row of things seeming good and going bad (+ to --) start to seem ludicrous, as it's just one bad thing after another. But with the way you describe Scenes always having to end in a DISASTER, is that ever a danger? I.e., even with the sequels in-between, could it be too many disasters, one after another? Isn't there ever a scene where the hero has a goal, there's conflict, but they succeed? Or must it always be disaster at the end of the scene?
This is what I'm doing to reframe a novel with structure: I'm looking at each scene, determining what type it is (proactive, reactive) and structuring them with key beats to hit so the story is never stagnating from its goal or reaction. Now, some scenes have the same type following, there's other types of sequels (depending on the genre and/or structure) that it's best to take a hard in-depth look on an outline (for me, anyway) before actually writing it, in case things change.
Just a little thing here, a string character in the novel I'm hoping to one day get past my outline on, is a prep,a kid named Seymour. Well he weres a bow tie. Sorry 😂
I also read the Hickman book. The examples from his own books made it hard. But I remember a sequel from Sidney Sheldon where a girl has all these thought why she shouldn't go after a guy, but then skips a couple steps and decides to sleep with him anyways. I was reading an Onley James novel recently that used the exact same kind of sequel. All reasons not to do something... But the he does it anyways. Good video. Never thought about using them (or not using them) for pacing.
Hi there, yes I am learning Scene and Sequels from W.M. Weiland in her Structure book, but I didn't get quite right like you explain, and the dominos exemples are great. Greetings from Brazil!
Never heard of the term before in this context, but yeah, ebbs and flows are super important to the structure - swo now I shall refer to them as sequels!
While I agree that pace is important, and that various genres expect different paces, I cannot agree with this definition or use of the word sequel. You could have called them scene and potato, but that is not what a potato is either. High tension, low tension could work. Fast action, slow action can also work. But, in the words of Abraham Lincoln, "You may try to call a dog's tail a fifth leg, but that does not make it so." Action, reflection could work. The word choice might depend on the genre, but you were not speaking of any genre(s).
Good question! So, typically I do it in this order: Prewriting ----> Synopsis method (to guide more prewriting) -----> outline. Scene sequel comes in at the later part of the process during outlining.
This video’s old, but I hope you can help How big is a Scene supposed to be? I find it’s easy to label something as a Goal for the character. Like “he goes to the supermarket for a gift”. But is a scene supposed to be a major event with other steps along the way, or ARE they the events of a larger goal?
So APPARENTLY my comment filter just... didn't tell me about new comments? So in the off chance you see my reply to your 3 month old comment, here's an answer: A typical scene does depend on genre. Something like SFF typically is 10 pages (or ~2500 words); a thriller might be 5 pages (or ~1250 words). In your example, the scene would be "he goes to the supermarket for a gift" + all the conflict and the resolution (or lack thereof) in one place. Does that help?
Nope, sorry. I've never heard of sequel as an element of structure. To me a sequel is a continuation of a story in another book or movie. Scene, where you have rising tension generally followed by recovery, is fine. It's probably the word 'sequel' that's causing me grief. Proactive & reactive is okay, but 'sequel' causes my brain to jitter. Your games room doesn't! Wow! Never have I seen so many board games. Also, I'm glad you didn't slaughter those dominoes with a saw.
I really like that description of "scene" + "recovery"; I think that's actually a much better framing than what's out there. There's either people SUPER into Scene-Sequel, OR they just sorta use scene for everything and never mention the down moments. And thank you! We are very proud of the game room.
You can also DELAY your sequel to keep tension high. Butcher seems to do this a lot with Dresden where the poor guy just doesn't get a chance to breathe as the hits just keep coming. And then he forces himself to stop (or gets knocked unconscious) and has a talk with himself (or Bob or Karrin or Michael) about wtf is ACTUALLY going on.
Thankyou, this was the perfect way for my brain to compute scenes and sequels (beginner writer here).
I needed this right now. Hope you come back but I get how life has priorities. Thanks for leaving this up. Very useful!
Great video, but I kind of wish you had used red for scenes and blue for sequels, red makes me think of action and blue makes me think of contemplation. Regardless this was very helpful thanks
Red for "heat up." Blue for "cool down." I was a bit confused at first because I thought that was what he was doing. "He's talking about scenes. Why is he laying so many sequels." 🤣 assume --> ass-u-me
6:03 the impersonation of me as a viewer just lazying around on the couch spewing criticism was painfully on point
I read Jim's blogs on writing advice. It was fun.
I didn't know the term but I was using them because I naturally felt it's too much for the reader to have hundreds of events one after another. Even too many interesting events become boring.
That's a REALLY good way to think about it!
I heard about scenes and sequels from The Snowflake Guy, Randy Ingermanson, years ago.
Never heard of this before in these terms, but it makes perfect sense! Thank you for sharing
Brilliant explanation! I've been confused about pacing and think I finally understand how it works now.
Bow Tie Writer, I have a question - I'm working my way through Robert McKee and Bickham and Swain, and my question is about SCENES ending in a DISASTER.
You and Bickham/Swain seem to suggest that ALL scenes should end in a disaster.
McKee however talks about every scene having a "turning point", where the "value charge" of the scene reverses, from either positive to negative or negative to positive. Which I interpret to mean - things seem good at the start of the scene, but BOOM the turning point happens at the end of the scene and the good is reversed to bad, the hero is in trouble. Or the reverse: a scene starts out in a bad place for the hero, but the turning point brings about a reversal where things are looking good for the hero.
McKee argues that scenes should always alternate: + to -- , then -- to +
and so on.
The reason he gives for this is, too many scenes in a row of things seeming good and going bad (+ to --) start to seem ludicrous, as it's just one bad thing after another.
But with the way you describe Scenes always having to end in a DISASTER, is that ever a danger? I.e., even with the sequels in-between, could it be too many disasters, one after another? Isn't there ever a scene where the hero has a goal, there's conflict, but they succeed? Or must it always be disaster at the end of the scene?
This is what I'm doing to reframe a novel with structure: I'm looking at each scene, determining what type it is (proactive, reactive) and structuring them with key beats to hit so the story is never stagnating from its goal or reaction. Now, some scenes have the same type following, there's other types of sequels (depending on the genre and/or structure) that it's best to take a hard in-depth look on an outline (for me, anyway) before actually writing it, in case things change.
Just a little thing here, a string character in the novel I'm hoping to one day get past my outline on, is a prep,a kid named Seymour. Well he weres a bow tie. Sorry 😂
I also read the Hickman book. The examples from his own books made it hard. But I remember a sequel from Sidney Sheldon where a girl has all these thought why she shouldn't go after a guy, but then skips a couple steps and decides to sleep with him anyways. I was reading an Onley James novel recently that used the exact same kind of sequel. All reasons not to do something... But the he does it anyways. Good video. Never thought about using them (or not using them) for pacing.
Well done. I like the props to help explain your story
RIP Dominoes
Hi there, yes I am learning Scene and Sequels from W.M. Weiland in her Structure book, but I didn't get quite right like you explain, and the dominos exemples are great. Greetings from Brazil!
Never heard of the term before in this context, but yeah, ebbs and flows are super important to the structure - swo now I shall refer to them as sequels!
Glad it's helpful!
While I agree that pace is important, and that various genres expect different paces, I cannot agree with this definition or use of the word sequel. You could have called them scene and potato, but that is not what a potato is either. High tension, low tension could work. Fast action, slow action can also work. But, in the words of Abraham Lincoln, "You may try to call a dog's tail a fifth leg, but that does not make it so." Action, reflection could work. The word choice might depend on the genre, but you were not speaking of any genre(s).
What's the difference, is there any, between story pace and story attack?
way too many people care what pantsers think, I say leave them in the dirt if they're bitching and moaning about anything being "too formulaic"
What a stupid and nasty thing to say. Let's leave you plotters in the dirt. Apparently you do care or you wouldn't leave such a puerile comment.
Is this the sort of thing we could or should include in a pre-writing plan? Setting out our scenes?
Good question! So, typically I do it in this order:
Prewriting ----> Synopsis method (to guide more prewriting) -----> outline. Scene sequel comes in at the later part of the process during outlining.
This video’s old, but I hope you can help
How big is a Scene supposed to be? I find it’s easy to label something as a Goal for the character. Like “he goes to the supermarket for a gift”. But is a scene supposed to be a major event with other steps along the way, or ARE they the events of a larger goal?
So APPARENTLY my comment filter just... didn't tell me about new comments? So in the off chance you see my reply to your 3 month old comment, here's an answer:
A typical scene does depend on genre. Something like SFF typically is 10 pages (or ~2500 words); a thriller might be 5 pages (or ~1250 words).
In your example, the scene would be "he goes to the supermarket for a gift" + all the conflict and the resolution (or lack thereof) in one place.
Does that help?
@@BowTieWriter Thanks for the reply :) And for the book recommendation!
Nope, sorry. I've never heard of sequel as an element of structure. To me a sequel is a continuation of a story in another book or movie. Scene, where you have rising tension generally followed by recovery, is fine. It's probably the word 'sequel' that's causing me grief. Proactive & reactive is okay, but 'sequel' causes my brain to jitter. Your games room doesn't! Wow! Never have I seen so many board games. Also, I'm glad you didn't slaughter those dominoes with a saw.
I really like that description of "scene" + "recovery"; I think that's actually a much better framing than what's out there. There's either people SUPER into Scene-Sequel, OR they just sorta use scene for everything and never mention the down moments.
And thank you! We are very proud of the game room.