Fully agreed. Mid-tier is where it’s at. As you said, it delivers 80% to 90% plus of a high-end system for listening enjoyment. Best bang for the buck 👍
Lots of factors determine price - 1. Machine tooling for exotic chasis 2. Brand 3. Distribution costs eg a dCS unit which wholesale price is one third of the RRP 4. Parts used 5. Intellectual property Factors that determine sound quality 1. The room 2. Synergy between components 3. Quality of the music played 4. The quality of the components The trick is to not lose sight of the second list of factors when considering how much to spend on the first list .
My system is about $11000 pontesII ,Denafrips Hedas preamp,Buchardt S400MKII and Parasound A23+ power amplifier and dual Rel T7x i love the way it sounds 🤙
I put together a $12K system, anchored by a pair of Heresy IVs. In my experience so much is predicated on liking the sound of your speakers. If they suit you, you are 90% of the way there. I'm done swapping out components and chasing "better" sound. if I feel the need to change things up I will try out a new phono cartridge or do some tube swapping. There are some folks who just like gear, and who will never stop looking for something new. More power to them. Just remember, you don't HAVE to go broke.
@@TombstoneTube I have a warm weather and a cold weather set up. In warm weather I use my Schitt Ragnarök 2 as an integrated, and in cold weather I use the Raggy as a pre-amp and a Decware SE34I.5 as the power amp. Both amps play nice with the Heresies (plus the Raggy is a killer headphone amp.) What are you using?
@@rhorto01 Yes the rest of my system is laughably low rent. My rack is a prep table from a restaurant supply store. CD player is a Blu Ray from Costco. Amps are B&O Ice modules. Pre amp was 45% off closeout from a school supply warehouse. No turntable.
I'm a big believer in "the room". Fortunately and just by luck I've got a great rectangular room that was built solid in the late 60's. Lumber was bigger, flooring is an 1 1/2' of wood (oak), plastered walls over the sheetrock, with just the right amount of furniture, rugs, damping, etc... It all works together and fortunately I don't feel compelled to spend more than I already have on my "mid-fi" system. Hell, lousy recordings are lousy regardless of the kit. But, the room is the integral part of the system.
Thank you for your terrific insight into audio gear that people really should think about. It is so easy for people to go down the audio gear rabbit hole and chase their tail by continually buying more and more expensive gear and never become completely happy with their system. Reality is there is no perfect system in existence. Some people need to take a step back, take a deep breath and think about what they are doing.
I really appreciate such an honest well thought out take. I have had much the same journey. My present speakers are Rosso Fiorentino floorstanders. They have a classic Italian sound, lush midrange, slightly rolled off ( silk tweeter) highs. They balance high resolution electronics well.
I wonder which model Rosso Fliorentino floorstanders you have？ I've listened to SIENA, VOLTERRA and CERTALDO Series 2. I think the CERTALDO series 2 sounded the best without the ribbon super tweeters！👍
One thing he didn’t mention that more $$ can get you, is sheer scale. The soundstage size and dynamic scaling can be way more room filling within that high hi-end.
I completely agree. After listening to Wilsons or Rockports with Gryphon amps, the biggest thing I notice when I come back to my system is a smaller scale. I actually like the sound of my system better, but it definitely sounds smaller. We are talking 30k vs 200k+.
Mid level hi fi will be enough for almost everyone. Getting a few percentage points difference may be worth it for some, but any gains after this are pretty much personnel taste. Having built and worked in Recording studios for decades, I'm simply after a pretty accurate experience of what I hear in a studio when mastering and mixing. Everyone has a different goal, which is why there are many many different sounds..
Buy speakers for the room you have Most high end systems that have scale are designed for larger rooms, and your big tower speakers will sound rubbish if they can't 'breathe'.
I have ordered the Buchardt S400 Mark II speakers for the upgrade of my dedicated listening only space. I listen to classical, opera and jazz mostly. I do like some detail (not surgical) but with a hint of warmth. I hope these speakers fit the bill. Won’t know until I can audition them in person in my own space!
60 Y plus of living , working and building with music reproduction from any pricetag sometimes more than a house .............I can only say you are right ! Only the listeninig experience can or can not connect you the soul of music.... The words coherence, harmony and emotion come to mind.......whatever the price . Your review.............So thrue...........
That perfectly sums up my experience listening to an ultra high end system at a hifi retailer. It was a stereoscope into the music, but felt very cold and analytical. Impressive but unnatural. Preferred my own system.
Mark you forgot to mention that high end audio is better suited in a treated room with proper sound absorption and reflection panels. No point to spend over 20k on a system if you do not have à treated music room since the frequencies are going to bounce all over the place and the system may sound worse than a 5k one.
The all new Stratton Acoustics Elypsis 1512 Loudspeakers are the Holy Grail in 2023 they are basted off of the JBL 4350's but sound much much better ! Long live the New King of Speakers.
This may be one of the top recent videos on audio; Dave rat has cool stuff in vids among others, ofc I don’t know everyone. This is quality conversation.
Love this breakdown and agree 100 percent!I have a Mark Levinson integrated and compare it to my Willsenton 300b tube and it all depends on the songs you play which one sounds better.
I particularly agree with your last comment. Similarly, speaker positioning makes some songs sound better further away from the rear wall and some songs sound better near the wall. I tend to bring the speakers out and leave them like that for a month, and then a few albums sound like they are missing bass, I put the speakers back a bit, near to the wall. The difference is huge, like having some new kit.
Yes, you are absolutely right. But at the same time, it's true for everything, not just audio. A $400,000 Rolls-Royce is better than a $40,000 car, but is it 10 times better? the answer is no. It's the same for a sofa, for clothes and for many other things. The problem is that the price curve is exponential compared to that of the improvement in quality, that is to say that for a little bit more quality, you will have to pay a lot more.
I have a lot of equipment that I mix and match. But if I’m listing to a live recording it must be on my Klipsch LaScalas. There is no substitute for my ears.
That’s the purifi woofer, one of the best in the world. That’s how it’s designed and it’s spectacular. See my review and sound demo if you like. Thanks.
In regular woofers, the total surface area varies as the woofer moves in and out. However, in the purify woofer, the wonky design ensures that the surface area remains consistent in all positions. This is just one of the engineering challenges they have addressed. Another challenge they tackled is managing the change in resistance based on the woofer's movement. Equal extreme low distortion
Yep! Pinpoint imaging is HIFI not natural... Two camps of audiophiles, one looking for natural sound like live music the other looking for perfect sound for them (Sound that pleased them, maybe they don't go see live music (Acoustic))
Of course there are other things you might get for more expensive equipment other than better sound. For instance a more expensive component might have more features, or it might have better build quality, or a speaker might be in a real wood cabinet therefore it costs more even though it might not sound any better. Also people just like to have expensive equipment whether it sounds better or not.
Have you ever listened to Medowlark Kestrels?? Maybe their bigger brothers. These speakers (the Kestrel) is an amazing speaker. Have had them for well over 20 years now and I still have no want to get anything else.
At the very bottom, $ 10 radio move up to $ 50, then $ 200 and maybe to a couple of thousand there is with out doubt a difference. But get into the other end, not so obvious if any difference. The room is essential but comparing live unrestricted by recording requirements to any hifi it's just not the same. Hifi is not photocopy. it's more about the best possible interpretation of the original.
For The Average Joe, ( Budget Around 10 To $15,000.00 !) What Home Theater 🎥 System Would You Recommend??? From Avr Receivers With A Power Amplifier And Home Theater Speakers ( BW, Klipsch, Kef's, Svs Or Arendal) ?????
What parts inside that $20k gear is very expensive? I'm just curious. I want amp and preamp that can play on any speakers in any room. I found that in a vintage Yamaha B-2 with vintage Yamaha NS-670 speakers. My CR-600 amp is warm with deep bass. Best of both worlds.
Yes But I don't understand why would you spend $5k+ on a highend DAC then cripple the sound quality with compressed Spotify?? Instead, get a lossless source like Apple Music.
Typical solid state based high-end hifi aims at giving you more detail, more everything than what sounds real and natural. If you go over the top in digging out and presenting what's in the recording the end result will NOT be what the recording engineer had in mind. After all why would recordings be tuned so that they sound best on systems used by 0.001% of customers?
The Engineer does not as you call "tune" a recording for any specific level of equipment. Why would he? In a world class recording studio he already has equipment superior to anything you would find in a house. His job is to make the very best recording possible that will translate across all platforms. And that's the trick. If you can make a recording sound great on a bookshelf sized system and even better on full sized towers and everything in between-- then you have an excellent recording. The better a recording sounds across multiple platforms-- the better the recording is, PERIOD.
@@keithmoriyama5421 For certain studios and genres that may be true but surely not across the board. Anyway, my point was that a lot of high-end equipment is an exercise in extracting every last detail from the depths of the recording which may not result in a sound subjectively heard as life-like and natural.
High End nowadays is getting a bit Ultra-HiFi. A little bit over the top. Most of the time it is an exercise to be more complicated, repeat and repeat, power supply over power supply. Simplification may be a better answer, it's simpler.
Is a Louis Vuitton a better bag than a Furla? Of course not, but they don’t advertise it as “better” or best. They are far more sincere than hi-end audio manufacturers.
I don't know why you spend any time discussing ultra high end, it only represents a minuscule part of the industry. People paying $100.000+ for their stereo system aren't on you tube looking! $1000 to $4000 are the meat of the hi fi business. Speakers make the biggest change in your sound and matching electronics is key. Not enough is said about matching speakers to receivers etc. etc.
Intheknow3431:I for one am very happy he does. He listens to it so he KNOWS high in gear to give us a reference. I drove a “M” though I never intended to buy one but now I know what the”best” BMW is like for FUN! Remember fun ?
![If you can't hear this then you're not an audiophile [See description for link to followup video]](/img/1.gif)
Fully agreed. Mid-tier is where it’s at. As you said, it delivers 80% to 90% plus of a high-end system for listening enjoyment. Best bang for the buck 👍
Lots of factors determine price -
1. Machine tooling for exotic chasis
2. Brand
3. Distribution costs eg a dCS unit which wholesale price is one third of the RRP
4. Parts used
5. Intellectual property
Factors that determine sound quality
1. The room
2. Synergy between components
3. Quality of the music played
4. The quality of the components
The trick is to not lose sight of the second list of factors when considering how much to spend on the first list .
My system is approximately $8,000 and I am very happy with it. Thanks for the discussion!
My system is about $11000 pontesII ,Denafrips Hedas preamp,Buchardt S400MKII and Parasound A23+ power amplifier and dual Rel T7x i love the way it sounds 🤙
Most honest thing I have heard, now subscribed.
It definitely is.....and I've found the same thing
Totally agree!!!
I concur!!!
The all New Popori Acoustics Loudspeakers will be at the 2024 Capital AudioFest in Room 840, you don't want to miss this one !
I put together a $12K system, anchored by a pair of Heresy IVs. In my experience so much is predicated on liking the sound of your speakers. If they suit you, you are 90% of the way there. I'm done swapping out components and chasing "better" sound. if I feel the need to change things up I will try out a new phono cartridge or do some tube swapping.
There are some folks who just like gear, and who will never stop looking for something new. More power to them. Just remember, you don't HAVE to go broke.
@@TombstoneTube I have a warm weather and a cold weather set up. In warm weather I use my Schitt Ragnarök 2 as an integrated, and in cold weather I use the Raggy as a pre-amp and a Decware SE34I.5 as the power amp. Both amps play nice with the Heresies (plus the Raggy is a killer headphone amp.)
What are you using?
80% of my budget is in my Yamaha NS-5000's.
@@reestyfarts Going heavy on speakers is a valid approach. It is one I didn't take, but it does make sense. Love the look of the 5000's.
@@rhorto01 Yes the rest of my system is laughably low rent. My rack is a prep table from a restaurant supply store. CD player is a Blu Ray from Costco. Amps are B&O Ice modules. Pre amp was 45% off closeout from a school supply warehouse. No turntable.
I'm a big believer in "the room". Fortunately and just by luck I've got a great rectangular room that was built solid in the late 60's. Lumber was bigger, flooring is an 1 1/2' of wood (oak), plastered walls over the sheetrock, with just the right amount of furniture, rugs, damping, etc... It all works together and fortunately I don't feel compelled to spend more than I already have on my "mid-fi" system. Hell, lousy recordings are lousy regardless of the kit. But, the room is the integral part of the system.
Thank you for your terrific insight into audio gear that people really should think about. It is so easy for people to go down the audio gear rabbit hole and chase their tail by continually buying more and more expensive gear and never become completely happy with their system. Reality is there is no perfect system in existence. Some people need to take a step back, take a deep breath and think about what they are doing.
If somebody is happy listening to a CLOCK-RADIO, then so be it!
I really appreciate such an honest well thought out take. I have had much the same journey. My present speakers are Rosso Fiorentino floorstanders. They have a classic Italian sound, lush midrange, slightly rolled off ( silk tweeter) highs. They balance high resolution electronics well.
I find it harder to organize for large symphonic music than say jazz combo or small acoustic assemble.
What is your experience?
I wonder which model Rosso Fliorentino floorstanders you have？ I've listened to SIENA, VOLTERRA and CERTALDO Series 2. I think the CERTALDO series 2 sounded the best without the ribbon super tweeters！👍
One thing he didn’t mention that more $$ can get you, is sheer scale. The soundstage size and dynamic scaling can be way more room filling within that high hi-end.
I completely agree. After listening to Wilsons or Rockports with Gryphon amps, the biggest thing I notice when I come back to my system is a smaller scale. I actually like the sound of my system better, but it definitely sounds smaller. We are talking 30k vs 200k+.
respect for trying being truthful and objective !
Mid level hi fi will be enough for almost everyone. Getting a few percentage points difference may be worth it for some, but any gains after this are pretty much personnel taste. Having built and worked in Recording studios for decades, I'm simply after a pretty accurate experience of what I hear in a studio when mastering and mixing. Everyone has a different goal, which is why there are many many different sounds..
Buy speakers for the room you have Most high end systems that have scale are designed for larger rooms, and your big tower speakers will sound rubbish if they can't 'breathe'.
True, Honest, Respected review, thank you.
I have ordered the Buchardt S400 Mark II speakers for the upgrade of my dedicated listening only space. I listen to classical, opera and jazz mostly. I do like some detail (not surgical) but with a hint of warmth. I hope these speakers fit the bill. Won’t know until I can audition them in person in my own space!
60 Y plus of living , working and building with music reproduction from any pricetag sometimes more than a house .............I can only say you are right !
Only the listeninig experience can or can not connect you the soul of music....
The words coherence, harmony and emotion come to mind.......whatever the price .
Your review.............So thrue...........
I love your reviews. Please review Hegel 390 if you get a chance.
Great review I'm now subscribed
What's your opinion on Jay's Audio Lab?
Fancy casework and heatsinks can make up to 50% of the cost. Looking at you Pathos.
Music should be fun when you hear it.
The point of diminishing returns!
That perfectly sums up my experience listening to an ultra high end system at a hifi retailer. It was a stereoscope into the music, but felt very cold and analytical. Impressive but unnatural. Preferred my own system.
Man those Fleetwood’s you had were just amazing
Law of diminishing returns is the one thing to remember
teknically that might work like that, but then you are also dealing with people with high income. your wallet decides not the gear or "laws"
As long as you understand what it means...
room acoustics maybe the most important thing...
And..how(quality/volume) it's(the track) recorded in the studio
not maybe, it is the most important point. No speaker in the world can fix room reverb, modes and standing waves
Mark you forgot to mention that high end audio is better suited in a treated room with proper sound absorption and reflection panels. No point to spend over 20k on a system if you do not have à treated music room since the frequencies are going to bounce all over the place and the system may sound worse than a 5k one.
He did mention that your room needs to be perfect when you have a high end system.
You’re my favourite reviewer 👍
The all new Stratton Acoustics Elypsis 1512 Loudspeakers are the Holy Grail in 2023 they are basted off of the JBL 4350's but sound much much better ! Long live the New King of Speakers.
What spending more on HiFi equipment gets you is a smaller bank account.
Did the A10’s convince you to do this?
This may be one of the top recent videos on audio;
Dave rat has cool stuff in vids among others, ofc I don’t know everyone.
This is quality conversation.
Well said. Great topic.
Love this breakdown and agree 100 percent!I have a Mark Levinson integrated and compare it to my Willsenton 300b tube and it all depends on the songs you play which one sounds better.
I particularly agree with your last comment. Similarly, speaker positioning makes some songs sound better further away from the rear wall and some songs sound better near the wall. I tend to bring the speakers out and leave them like that for a month, and then a few albums sound like they are missing bass, I put the speakers back a bit, near to the wall. The difference is huge, like having some new kit.
Yes, you are absolutely right. But at the same time, it's true for everything, not just audio. A $400,000 Rolls-Royce is better than a $40,000 car, but is it 10 times better? the answer is no. It's the same for a sofa, for clothes and for many other things. The problem is that the price curve is exponential compared to that of the improvement in quality, that is to say that for a little bit more quality, you will have to pay a lot more.
Once you understand what you’re preferences are buying and owning gear because a hell of a lot easier 👍😊
I have a lot of equipment that I mix and match. But if I’m listing to a live recording it must be on my Klipsch LaScalas. There is no substitute for my ears.
No1 rule here in hifi always try before you buy
And how is that supposed to work? Demoing stuff in the store says nothing about your room
Agree, but sometimes you simply can’t 😢
Have you thought about reviewing the Kali Audio IN8 V2? I know it’s a studio monitor, but it’s a poor man’s Kef R3 but powered.
Well he has stuck a home run with this topic looking at the comments.🤔🤯😎
Have you tried bricasti dacs? Curt in Az.
This is so spot on.
I have said this for years too😊
What happened to the Buchardt driver, it looks damaged?
That’s the purifi woofer, one of the best in the world. That’s how it’s designed and it’s spectacular. See my review and sound demo if you like. Thanks.
In regular woofers, the total surface area varies as the woofer moves in and out. However, in the purify woofer, the wonky design ensures that the surface area remains consistent in all positions. This is just one of the engineering challenges they have addressed. Another challenge they tackled is managing the change in resistance based on the woofer's movement.
Equal extreme low distortion
Yep! Pinpoint imaging is HIFI not natural... Two camps of audiophiles, one looking for natural sound like live music the other looking for perfect sound for them (Sound that pleased them, maybe they don't go see live music (Acoustic))
I recommend Tony Bennett unplugged 🥃🎹🥁
Of course there are other things you might get for more expensive equipment other than better sound. For instance a more expensive component might have more features, or it might have better build quality, or a speaker might be in a real wood cabinet therefore it costs more even though it might not sound any better. Also people just like to have expensive equipment whether it sounds better or not.
Have you ever listened to Medowlark Kestrels?? Maybe their bigger brothers. These speakers (the Kestrel) is an amazing speaker. Have had them for well over 20 years now and I still have no want to get anything else.
Amen.
Buy used. Your dollar goes a lot farther. One person’s downgrade is your upgrade.
At the very bottom, $ 10 radio move up to $ 50, then $ 200 and maybe to a couple of thousand there is with out doubt a difference. But get into the other end, not so obvious if any difference.
The room is essential but comparing live unrestricted by recording requirements to any hifi it's just not the same.
Hifi is not photocopy. it's more about the best possible interpretation of the original.
For The Average Joe, ( Budget Around 10 To $15,000.00 !) What Home Theater 🎥 System Would You Recommend??? From Avr Receivers With A Power Amplifier And Home Theater Speakers ( BW, Klipsch, Kef's, Svs Or Arendal) ?????
What parts inside that $20k gear is very expensive? I'm just curious. I want amp and preamp that can play on any speakers in any room. I found that in a vintage Yamaha B-2 with vintage Yamaha NS-670 speakers. My CR-600 amp is warm with deep bass. Best of both worlds.
So true!
Can you review Ascend acoustics Elx towers
Excellent
7:40 Are those drivers torn?😳
Purifi woofers, optically a bit hard to get used to.
What about amplifiers? Should an audioholic splurge on amplfiers and professional horns?
Yes
But I don't understand why would you spend $5k+ on a highend DAC then cripple the sound quality with compressed Spotify?? Instead, get a lossless source like Apple Music.
Thanks
True
But dollars are the least important to get into music.
Bravo
What are the… new stand-speakers in your room?
How about R&D, manpower cost, country it’s build…
You should trey REGA stuff you’d like it
I don't think he's into turntables at all.
@@67Pepper I meant there amplifiers
I dunno Steve..I’ve never seen an audio civilian listen to a high end set up and find it off putting..
Buy a pair of Stax headphones,then you can listen in the john.
Typical solid state based high-end hifi aims at giving you more detail, more everything than what sounds real and natural. If you go over the top in digging out and presenting what's in the recording the end result will NOT be what the recording engineer had in mind. After all why would recordings be tuned so that they sound best on systems used by 0.001% of customers?
The Engineer does not as you call "tune" a recording for any specific level of equipment. Why would he? In a world class recording studio he already has equipment superior to anything you would find in a house. His job is to make the very best recording possible that will translate across all platforms. And that's the trick. If you can make a recording sound great on a bookshelf sized system and even better on full sized towers and everything in between-- then you have an excellent recording. The better a recording sounds across multiple platforms-- the better the recording is, PERIOD.
@@keithmoriyama5421 For certain studios and genres that may be true but surely not across the board. Anyway, my point was that a lot of high-end equipment is an exercise in extracting every last detail from the depths of the recording which may not result in a sound subjectively heard as life-like and natural.
High End nowadays is getting a bit Ultra-HiFi. A little bit over the top. Most of the time it is an exercise to be more complicated, repeat and repeat, power supply over power supply. Simplification may be a better answer, it's simpler.
@@keithmoriyama5421 Unfortunately what you say is ideal but freqently not the case, especially pop music for mass consumption.
Is a Louis Vuitton a better bag than a Furla? Of course not, but they don’t advertise it as “better” or best. They are far more sincere than hi-end audio manufacturers.
Neither Hi End Manufacturers nor Buyers put forth claims of being "Better". It is the wailing and chest beating of sour grapes mob.
High end audio is a SEA WALL.
I don't know why you spend any time discussing ultra high end, it only represents a minuscule part of the industry. People paying $100.000+ for their stereo system aren't on you tube looking! $1000 to $4000 are the meat of the hi fi business. Speakers make the biggest change in your sound and matching electronics is key. Not enough is said about matching speakers to receivers etc. etc.
Intheknow3431:I for one am very happy he does. He listens to it so he KNOWS high in gear to give us a reference. I drove a “M” though I never intended to buy one but now I know what the”best” BMW is like for FUN! Remember fun ?
🎯👏👍🙏❤
Black cat in your garden.
So?🤷♂️
Hee Haw reference...👍😁