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Fixing The Record - Teddie's True Origin || P4G Analysis
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- Опубликовано: 15 июл 2022
- Teddie is one of the most mysterious and controversial Persona 4 characters to this day. Unfortunately due to Matpat's Game theory video on Persona 4 Golden and Teddie's identity, there has been a lot of misinformation over the years. So i'm happy now to give a full picture of who Teddie really is, understanding his origin in P4g and original P4.
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"oh my god, a white guy!"
Junpei when witnessing Teddie's human form, Persona 4 Arena
True!
If only the localisation changed it to “Oh my god, a European!”. I feel like that would’ve gotten the point across without sounding as…silly when Junpei looks just as white as Teddie.
Pokéfan 744 it’s an anime thing. White people and Japanese people are depicted exactly the same a lot of the time.
@@pokefan7446Or Junpei thinking he’s a Welshman. Then again, perhaps Teddie’s complexation is a little lighter than what the visuals shows us.
Gaijin works. That or Foreigner.
I'm really proud of this one for some of the stuff involving his mythology that I feel I've never seen talked about on the English side of the internet. Hope you get as mind-blowing as I did multiple times making this!!! (Also I know this is the wrong account but oh well)
So True! The Yuru-chara, and "other teddie" stuff us banger!
Doppelgangers! Oh no!
Oh so you're starting to analyze party members now?
Can't wait for the rest!
@@HidinginPrivate So True!
Your verified 200k side account
An interesting tidbit from the Japanese version of P4, Teddie didn't really have a name before the IT found him. In Japanese, he has a verbal tick where he inserts 'kuma' into most of his sentences, so when Yosuke asks Teddie his name he just says "Kuma?" and so that's what they call him, for lack of anything better.
Also, in the Japanese version, it's pretty clear Teddie has no idea what he's talking about when he says something he shouldn't. For example, the 'scoring a hot stud' line is is "逆ナン," or "reverse nanpa," which literally means "reverse picking up girls," which is not correct. So every time he says it to 'sound mature' or whatever, it's just showing how much he doesn't know about the world. On top of that I've heard he uses Katakana a lot when talking about 'adult' stuff, showing he's just quoting something he heard from somewhere else (I haven't gotten that far into JP P4 yet, so I haven't seen it myself). Just a bit of extra depth that couldn't really be transferred over to the English version.
There's actually a lot of stuff like that. My favorite is during Naoto's rank 10R, instead of asking about the pitch of her voice she asks "僕が「僕」っていうの、おかしいですか?" or "Do you find the fact that I use 'boku' strange?", to which you can answer (don't quote me on this) "直斗の好きでいい" or "「私」がいい.” I feel like the translators did a pretty good job with translating the first part, since obviously there's no 'boku' equivalent, but I think "whichever you prefer" isn't a great substitute for "直斗の好きでいい."
There's definitely a few rough points with the translation, and some where they tried their best but doesn't quite keep the intent unfortunately. I'll consider including some of these observations in the full video version, although I do think even with some of the clarifications the game continued to straddle the line on how competent he is. Never fully committing to his intent. I do think by December though it is almost certainly intentional and he is aware
@@HidinginPrivate Yeah, I agree. I think what they were trying to do was make Teddie do bad things in ignorance. I feel like if the IT just sat him down and told him that doing that kinda stuff wasn't ok, he'd cut it out, you know? But they're just too uncomfortable to do that. At least that's the vibe I got. For instance in Q Teddie calls Koromaru something like "pupper" in JP as an insult to show how he is too nice to come up with real insults. Not to take that as gospel or anything since authorial intent is lost in the spinoffs, but just something to keep in mind for the direction they intended Teddie to go in.
Regardless of the intent, I think implying anything like that with Rise really wasn't the best call. I never thought much of it since the characters just kinda laugh it off, and I think that's what the devs were intending, but I can't really think of what that scene could've been other than 'that.' And the translation is more or less literal, with the line being 'どこ触ってるの!?"
Very insightful!
Game:calls teddie kuma
Me:and no I’m not a build a bare reject I’m monokuma
I feel had they kept it as is in the English script, it’d make it easier for people to understand the naivety of Teddie and how his seemingly perverseness is one of ignorance than intent. It’d dispels the creep factor that would be there for a number of players.
Honestly, I don't hate Teddie...I just hate how much the cast lets him get away with and their refusal to correct his behavior, even when he's clearly hurting his friends. The girls are especially bad about enabling him with only Rise handling the situation appropriately on a regular basis. The groping scene with Rise is actually worse than you described. There's two times when Rise hugs Teddie:
1) When Teddie returns to the group after disappearing. This is what you were referring to, but not the time when Teddie gropes her.
2) The group learns that Nanako has a full recovery. This is after Nanako nearly *died* and Rise is so overcome with joy that that she starts crying and hugs Teddie. It's this scene where Teddie takes advantage of Rise's emotional vulnerability and gropes her. Now *that* is seriously messed up. I don't normally approve of the "violent anime women" trope, but Teddie totally deserved that punch.
It’s like the Ryuji vs Morgana thing in P5. Apparently nobody in the Persona series takes the time to sit down and talk things out when it’s not Social Link time including explaining what’s considered socially acceptable to Teddie or tell him that scoring with girls has a sexual connotation to it which is why the girls on the team tells him to stop saying it.
Yeah, I really don't get why Rise never took the time to sit down and explain things to Teddie. She's like the one person in the group who is sexually mature enough to correct Teddie's obviously inappropriate behaviour. At the end of the day, the Investigation Team is a group of friends, not just co-workers like how S.E.E.S. was in Persona 3. Inappropriate behaviours should not be ignored like this. But on the other hand, I also know how it's like living in a rural Asian town because I grew up in one. There are some topics that you just don't mention because of traditional norms or even religious beliefs. Still, Rise grew up in a big city. She would not have the same restriction Yukiko or Chie have in terms of correcting Teddie's behaviour. Hell, even Yosuke and Yuu are from big cities. I get why Yuu wouldn't correct Teddie (because he's either very reserved or an absolute troll, based on the dialogue choices), but Yosuke doesn't seem like the type of guy who just lets Teddie do whatever he wants. This genuinely makes me question what their friendship outside of Yuu looks like.
I think the fact that Teddie awakened to his second persona automatically, aka without the help of the protagonist, or more specifically, the effort of you the player, adds to his character. The fact that he came to such a conclusion almost entirely by his own thinking and reflecting really adds a lot for me. Same could be said for Morgana and the entirety of the P3 cast.
Don’t forget the two Phantom Thieves from Strikers. More so with Wolf.
Teddie is like a little brother : he can be insufferable but at the end of the day you still love him.
Good example of the relationship I have with him tbh
Spread the word brother
Amen. Teddie reminds me of this as well.
My little brother isn't asexual predator
If teddie is the little, what does that make morgana?
Fun fact:
The voice actor for Teddie, Sam Riegel, and the voice actress for Marie, Eden Riegel, are siblings
So Teddie hits on her ahhhhhhhh.....
This sounds wrong
@@bigchocho9659 Just imagined Brother annoyed his sisters.
Ah yes, the most underrated persona character. Allow me to very quickly share some of my thoughts and observations on Teddie:
1. you can actually pinpoint the exact moment where Teddie’s flirty personality forms. After the Shadow Yukiko fight, the team starts to leave to get Yukiko out of the TV. Teddie begins to despair, as he doesn’t want to be left alone again. Then, Yukiko walks over to him, pats his head and promises him she’ll come back. Correct me if i’m wrong, but i think that’s the first genuine act of kindness and affection Teddie has ever experienced. The very next line Teddie has is a direct quote from Shadow Yukiko. To me, this means that Teddie, touched by Yukiko being kind to him, decided to model himself after her to become more likable, and since his only exposure to Yukiko had been her Shadow, that’s what he ended up copying. Also, living with Yosuke probably only served to reinforce that behavior.
2. Teddie doesn’t actually know what “scoring“ means. Teddie repeatedly asks the gang what it means when Shadow Yukiko uses the term, but he never gets an answer. Then the fight happens and all is forgotten, but Teddie still never got his explanation. Fast forward to after Golden: Teddie’s victory quote against Yukiko in Arena reads as follows: “Hey, Yuki-chan! How’d you like my scoring with you, huh? Hrm? That isn’t what “scoring“ means?“ I know that Arena isn’t relevant to the Golden analysis, but the fact that Teddie never got his answer to what “scoring“ is does come from Golden.
3. people often discuss who’s Shadow Teddie is. I personally believe that he was nobody’s Shadow Self, and was instead just a regular Shadow born from the collective subconscious, but there is a pretty reasonable candidate that no one has mentioned yet: Sho Minazuki. Now, i am specifically talking about the Sho personality; we know that Minazuki already has Tsukiyomi. Sho wants to feel bonds, and the only reason he tries to destroy the world is because he doesn’t know how to form a bond. A Shadow Self is someone’s hidden feelings twisted and amplified, so this desire to feel bonds would result in a Shadow that wants to be friends with everyone, that’d go so far as to change it’s physical appearance to be more appealing to humans… If that sounds familiar to you, that’s because i just described Teddie.
4. during summer, you can help Nanako with her homework. During these sessions, other members of the team will drop by to help out. When Teddie shows up, Nanako’s currently working on a task that requires her to write down some proverbs. Teddie, instantly, without even needing to think about it, suggests “cogito ergo sum“. I think therefore i am. That’s literally the perfect proverb for someone like him. Teddie can’t remember his past. A person is formed by their past. Therefore, if you don’t have a past, do you even exist? It’s an existential question that i don’t doubt Teddie has asked himself, and this proverb would be the ideal counter to that argument. If you can think, you exist, because nothing cannot think. I like to imagine that whenever Teddie had doubts about what he is, he reminded himself of this proverb.
while i dont think the sho thing is true and i dont remember the homework parts of the game
the first 2 things seem to be true
What if he’s King Moron’s shadow and him dying enabled Teddie to gain a persona by being unbound?
This makes so much sense, thank you!!
@@DolanDuking late answer, but the timeline doesn’t match up. Teddie gains his Persona at the end of Rise’s dungeon. Morooka dies soon after the deadline for that dungeon has passed, so no matter what you do, Teddie’s awakening occurs before Morooka’s death
I agree with you on where his perverse personality comes from, he developed an ego after only interacting with people in the entrance area, then the castle of the girl trying to “score a hot stud”, then the “bad bad bathhouse” and then a freaking strip club
It’s no wonder he came out skewed
As someone who got into P5 before P4, Teddie always seemed like a too much on-the-nose mascot, so I never really thought much of him, but this is a very well formed analysis on his design inspirations and motives!
As per usual, fantastic video; can't wait for the next☆
Thank you! Yeah I was really excited with a lot of the things I came across researching him that I hadn't seen talked about outside of japanese circles
I am whole heartedly convinced that teddie is/was nanakos shadow. Nanako doesnt have a bad bone in her body that izanamis corruption can exploit so he breaks free. He is a teddie bear cause kids tend to cling to things like that in times of loneliness. He gains his human form after his ego forms and gains peak admiration for the main character thus imitating his appearance a little. We don't see nanakos shadow in her dungeon. He parallels nanako while he in in the hospital and is the last one to be by her side before she gets better and wakes up.
Plus his Persona’s evolution takes place by her bedside.
It kills me that he got the story of Cu Chulainn right but the pronunciation had my ancestors weeping in their graves
Great video other than that
How do you pronounce it?
@@No.1_Reuniclus_Fan I don't know any Irish but I've heard it pronounced as "ku hoolen" very often.
Teddie’s arc has always been one of the most fascinating parts of the main story to me. Someone actively forming their own self, despite what their origins says they SHOULD and NEED to be is something that I’m always a sucker for in media. Teddie is one of the best examples in my opinion.
He’s still a bit of a dingus at times. The harassment stuff is super weird. I don’t know how much of that is the time it was written or the writers’ weird sense of humor.
Probably the former, probably the latter. You should hear some of the stuff that went on backstage for the WWF back in the Golden Era and in the 90’s where the workplace fraternity culture wasn’t seen as a toxic one.
That and the harassment stuff is a byproduct of Modern Persona leaning a little too hard on the anime tropes for it’s own good.
Case in point; Persona 5 when it starts with child abuse, rape and a suicide attempt with all of it depicted as being serious which makes the game’s use of anime tropes including the use of fan service from one of the characters involved in that saga come off as disjointed tonally when the game is about the fight against corruption as well as trying to have it’s cake and eat it. A game that’s a social commentary about the state of affairs with Japan, a game that shows police brutality near the start and tackling real world subjects... That also goes ‘haha blonde monkey goes ow ow’ when said blonde monkey comes from an abusive background and slotting characters exactly into their archetypes in a game that’s about rebelling against the status quo.
I wish they had gone with some of the freakier Teddie designs we've seen in concept art. I think it would have given his design even more resonance - that he tried to gain shallow acceptance from others through a cute mascot look, only to fail and look a bit "off" instead. Plus, I think that would've helped alleviate some of the problems identified here, by more so pushing the idea that Teddie wants to know more about humanity, but doesn't really have a solid grasp and needs to learn as the game progresses.
One thing I want to mention in this video (which I did enjoy btw)
The extra content the third semester added made me appreciate teddie more. Not only do we see him look after the player when they fall sick, but he can also sympathize with marie's situation on a personal level having been in a similar situation and that makes him the more determined to help marie out.
absolutely great! even though a lot of people don't like Teddie and personally i also think he's annoying sometimes i still love him like how can you not, great analysis on everything about him and his honestly really good character arc good job :-)
The discussion of pursuing truth reminds me of a Lombardi quote "We will chase perfection, but we will not obtain it, but in the pursuit of perfection we will attain excellence."
Teddie's on that long list of post Persona 2 characters most don't understand or take too seriously, i want more talk of Morgana because he gets so overlooked that people don't understand his character or only focuses on his crush on Ann, telling people to go to sleep or the fighting in the Okumra arc
Morgana just has alot to hate is all. He's not awful or anything, just when he's annoying, he's really annoying
@@Alex_BarbosaPlus with what he did during that arc and what snowballed from there, it paints a bad picture of him. That’s Morgana at his most insufferable and the fact he got off too lightly despite breaking the code the Thieves established does little to alleviate the negative thoughts of what the player thinks of him in that context.
Also he’s got a personality that’s more deserving of the butt monkey status than Ryuji. I think the problem with how the game handles Ryuji’s role as the comic relief is because of his backstory and how his life was affected by the rotten adults that makes whatever misfortune befalls him not as funny as those that happens to Yosuke because that guy has moments where he does deserve it while Ryuji’s just feels unnecessarily cruel when he isn’t enough of an asshole to make it funny.
I think that might be why they find Morgana insufferable because he is such a little shit at times and he’s the one constantly belittling his teammate unprompt while rarely if ever getting checked for it rubs people the wrong way. The fact he gets a karma houdini for his less pleasant behaviour and not getting told off for his creepy obsession with Ann while Ryuji gets the unfair treatment just because he’s the delinquent doesn’t help his case. I mean; does a man who’s partially crippled in one leg getting beaten up on sound funny to you?
Bro, didn’t ryuji pressure ann to strip?(it was for the mission but still) I don’t think you’re in any position to call morgana out for being creepy
Especially since ryuji is pretty mean to him back
@@harrybechtle4333 Except that Morgana is the instigator for most of the arguments, singling him out more than anyone else and the game never calls him out on his obsession. Nobody tells him to knock it off nor pull him aside to tell him it’s creepy.
Nobody who calls themselves a ‘gentleman’ would behave like Morgana nor belittle a colleague to that extent where even a ‘compliment’ has a backhandedness to it. And that wouldn’t be a problem had the game not started off with an abusive child predator for an arc antagonist.
Oh and don’t forget that Yusuke in that same arc used blackmail against Ann which the game strangely never addresses afterwards; something that is pretty egregious considering this is towards the same person who witnessed her friend trying to end her own life. It just happens that he’s quirky enough and a victim of Makoto the Screentime Monster Nijima to make that major black mark against easy to overlook compared to Morgana’s offences.
All contributing towards the game having a very schizophrenic nature between having a story being a critical look at the ugly side of Japan, it’s culture and the abuse of authority within it and a story containing the worst of the anime tropes at odds with the more detail-orientated writing which unlike Persona 4’s more slice of life nature is harder to overlook since Persona 5 is trying to have it’s cake and eat it. I have always said Persona as a series has always been held back by these same tropes that brings down the real artistic qualities the games have and it’s never more true than with Persona 5. A game that’s all about breaking free of your shackles... By also acting out the shackles of the pre-existing cliches.
I absolutely love the growth parallel between Rise and Teddie. It's beautiful and complex writing.
It's subtle but also fits perfectly
I've always been ashamed to say this, but I think Teddie might just be one of my favorite characters from Persona 4. Sure, he's annoying, perverted, and sometimes just down right insufferable, but his story and character arc when looking back on it in retrospect helped me to understand who I am, coping with the beliefs I've had back then and moving on from them in a new perspective. I love Teddie, and I'm no longer afraid to say it. He's genuinely kind and works hard, even sacrificing himself on many occasions to help his friends.
I do have a personal theory on why Teddie acts as perverted as he does. I haven't quite finished persona 4, but taking the logic that Persona 5 has for shadows (That being they are created and manifestations of desire), I would believe that Teddie doesn't fall too far from that tree. If Teddie desires to be loved, they will create a body and appearance to be loved. If Teddie desires to do some perverted things, he's going to do it. If Teddie desires to risk his own well being to save his friend, he's going to give it his all. This doesn't excuse his actions, especially since he's well aware of what he's doing and has shown restraint before, having an ego and all, but I believe it puts things into perspective on why Teddie is the way that he is. It's not a pure "innocent curiosity" thing, I believe it's a lack of being able to control that desire at times. I wouldn't blame anyone for hating Teddie, I hate what he does when it comes to the whole "pervert" thing all the god damn time. But as a character and as a person, I love Teddie with all my heart.
Apparently, the pervert thing is a misinterpretation of how he is written and portrayed in the original Japanese script including how he gets his name. The translator likely overlooking the smaller details that results in what we have now. I say this because someone else mentioned it in the comments.
As odd as Teddy can be as fascinating is the background of his character. Great video. It was super interesting to watch
Thanks Nicole. I had a lot of fun researching into him and trying to figure out the game's intentions
Great job Hiding-kun. Amazing analyses of my favorite game.
Thanks! Hope you heard something new!
I'm so glad someone else appreciates Teddie like I do. I made my own video about him some time ago, and we raised a lot of similar points. Felt very fufilling for someone else to spot the connections between Teddie and Rise.
Great analysis, there are many others and different theories about Teddie but not a further analysis including the mythology references and origins, specially keeping in mind that everything takes place in Japan and the influence of its culture in the events of the game. I didn´t know about Kumamon, that makes total sense for Teddie´s appearance.
I think that he´s an underrated character, that many people hate him for his actions and I can understand that but in my eyes he´s like a kid who does whatever he wants without any control. Having the IT on his side doesn´t helps too. He learned the "scoring" stuff thanks to Yukiko´s shadow, then Kanji and Rise came after, lives with the pervy Yosuke.. how Teddie cannot turn into the "Beast in Heat"? In Arena he seems to be totally aware of what he´s doing, his comments prove it but that doesn´t changes the fact that he has little understanding of human world and how it works. He truly wants to date a girl but at the same time doesn´t knows how to interact in the proper way. He wants to marry the IT sensei included but doesn´t knows what marriage is as we see in Q and Dancing.
I must to add that I love his interactions with Labrys in Arena and Ultimax. They give me the impression that Teddie was just flirting and playing until the moment but that he truly has fallen in love with someone. It gives a little of character development.
It is sad that people think Teddie is just a archetypal mascot character. Teddie's arch is such a beautiful metaphor for how a shadow develops an ego to form a persona. His flirty personality comes from his orgin being a shadow, which is dark side of people that they try to hide. We know how people in Japan tries to hide their flirtatious feelings and childish behavior due to the fear of being an outcast. So it is only natural Teddie behaves in such ways. Hell, I'd say Teddie is quite a modest character all things considered.
I think the tropeish writings of Modern Persona sometimes hurts the characters and their world. If you were to rewrite P4 to remove the anime tropes, characters like Teddie would come off differently since the story’s now grounding itself in a non-anime mindset and the mascot archetype instead becomes a primordial soup becoming a living being because it suddenly gained a will.
Teddie kinda gets a bad rap for mainly two reasons: the slice-of-life segments that happen in late summer and autumn, and Persona Q. As we all know, the TV World is pretty much a dead place. So for any inhabitant to enter and live in the real world, I cannot blame Teddie for going crazy and getting swept away in its myriad sensations and experiences, even if he fails in reading social cues. In other words, most of Teddie's shenanigans happen during his first few months in the real world, and PQ takes place when Teddie is still in the throes of earthly hedonism. It is only after the sobering events of Nanako's dungeon and hunting down the real killer does Teddie calm down and start to mature. I've never played the game myself, but I heard that in Persona 4 Dancing All Night, which takes place six months after the main game, Teddie has gone back to his sweet, helpful self.
In his core, Teddie is a true sweetheart. In Persona 4 Arena, Teddie's route has him rescuing Labrys and he off all people would know about wrestling with his humanity in a non-human body. His kindness and understanding of Labrys was a true delight to see, and it can only happen because Teddie is Teddie.
As strange as Teddie is and as immoral as he can be, he’s actually my favourite mascot; I like the video, great job.
Thanks! He's not my least favorite in the least
@@HidinginPrivate in regards to his morality, I can excuse him (in the original game) for the most part; a lot of stuff he says is met with “what are you talking about?”, “you don’t know what that means” or “you quoted that from somewhere” which sorta supports his weird naïveté with this stuff (I think it also helps that in general he isn’t just “pervert” like he is in spin-offs and there’s more optional dialogue of him misunderstanding certain social cues and other things unrelated to women).
Obviously I agree with the thing about Rise, and I actually thought it rather odd when I first saw it because of how out of place it was for him to so quickly switch on the dime from emotional to sleazy (considering how long he can get into a particular mood), but him suggesting the girls enter the festival was actually rather funny because it paints Yosuke as better than him even in this instance of forcing them to join the pageant. Like, Yosuke gets the brunt of it and it’s a mean prank but, to Yosuke, it was a prank and it was implied he didn’t intend for them to go through with it, but gets chewed out for a mistake, and then backpedals with “well you’re all attractive so it won’t be too bad.”
Honestly, this might seem like a sort of surface level observation but I've always considered Teddie's more sexual behaviors are based off of behaviors that can be seen on television. If one can interpret his bear and human forms as being based off what everybody would like on television, ie a mascot and a pretty boy, I don't think it would be a stretch to say he's unfortunately adopting the persona of a harem protagonist. Which, from a sort of alien/outsider perspective one can interpret as universally likable because they "get a ton of women". Honestly what redeems him for me is his very wholesome and kind interactions with Nanako, showing he's not just a deranged pervert.
It’d be nice if the game made it more clear that Teddie’s behaviour is what he’s been exposed to rather than something that he consciously does. A Shadow like him normally would only know one thing by acting on instinct or embodying a person’s dark side locked away from their peers and since Teddie is a Shadow, his understanding of human nature is no more nuanced than Nanako’s because he’s not born of man and thus he’s not formally informed by the environments a human would grow accustomed to since birth because the environments he’s raised by is alien to us human beings which makes him a fish out of water.
I just recently found this series and I’m glad I did. When P4G came out on pc it lead to my love for the whole MegaTen franchise and so many amazing moments.
Happy to be here when a video comes out.
Teddy is like the inversion of Ryoji from P3, but he was able to become fully human unlike Ryoji
You know how mankind came from the primordial soup where all life on Earth began? Teddie is the Shadow equivalently that.
I think the reason why I have issues with Teddie is the translations from Japanese to English with what he says, like what Brandon mentions below, and the fandom. Why is it that it's fine that Teddie can become from a shadow to a humanoid creature but it's wrong for Morgana to be the same thing? Because Teddie did it first? It just rubbed me the wrong way. Media shouldn't be limited because 'something' did it before.
100%
17:40 I have not studied Sartre enough to be sure, but from my perspective it's not like it's flawed, it's more like when we ask ourselves about how to save the most being possible and the answer is to anihilate humanity. Yes it is technically true, but only cause the question, the problem itself is absurd, like the shadows reasoning usually are. here, we could said that the flawed perspective is that defining what other humans are by our actions is violating their rights, a shovel wanting to start a family doesn't follow our definition of a shovel, but stating that shovels can have a family isn't a sin, it doesn't hurt the other shovels. this is me going on a weird rant, but it seams like an answer to Teddie too ...
Regarding the Sagiri connection, when I originally played Vanilla P4 I assumed he was meant to be Yu's equivalent to what Ameno and Kunino sagiri are to Adachi and Namatame, someone for Izanami to keep an eye on the three players in her game (or more generally to keep an eye on the investigation team as a whole). I don’t know if that was ever intended, nor whether this makes sense after Marie gets introduced but it was what I concluded at the time.
Frankly, I don’t know jack about philosophy or anything like that, but personally I think it’s good to live in a middle ground in regards to the Problem of Induction. Sure the past can be used to ascertain the probable future, but I think we tend to overestimate and overly rely on our ability to do this, as while the future will eventually become the present, it is not the present, and therefore can’t be predicted with 100% certainty. It’s like in the video you did about Nanako, where you mentioned children will often feel that bad things that happen are their fault. They may experience things that lead them to this conclusion in the past, and will then use this past experience to predict the future, which is often not a pathway to truth. So then, the answer is not to give in fully to blissful ignorance due to a completely unpredictable future or to a constant reliance on patterns formed in the past and present.
Though I initially wrote this before I got to the part of the video where you discussed objectivity and it’s distinction from 100% certainty which addresses what I just wrote, I still wanna post this comment because I went through the trouble of writing it. :)
I like Teddie although some of his actions are infuriating like the groping. It makes me sad that in persona q they just reduce him to this fiend who is always making inappropriate comments about the girls and ignore such important parts of who he is.
Also great work this video, one of ur best ones yet
It’s how I feel when Ryuji after Kamoshida Arc is just hard-pressed into the idiot comic relief role outside of his Social Link when that same arc showed a more nuanced take on him where he came off as more on the emotionally hot-blooded than an idiot but apparently those things means the same thing to most writers. Wouldn’t be an issue if not for the fact Persona 5 is about rebelling against the status quo and social expectations put upon the cast.
Then again, the Kamoshida Arc is a weird anomaly within P5 when you break it down writing wise in comparison to the other arcs and how the characters are depicted in that arc versus how are they are after it’s conclusion.
@@rayvenkman2087 this is so true, I feel the same for how they also handled Anne after the Kamoshida arc. They both felt like they started out as really strong characters and them they just got pushed into stereotypes
@@nex8939 Kamoshida Arc Ann was fantastically portrayed and would have enjoyed seeing more of that Ann in the main narrative onwards while she still gets to be sweet loving self. It’s hard to describe what that Ann is other than there’s a subdued manner to her bubbly personality like there’s a underlying sadness beneath the smile and being isolated from most people because of her mixed background.
Plus I think Ann’s beef with Makoto over her role or lack there of in the whole Kamoshida situation would have made for a fair point of conflict than the stupid Ryuji vs Morgana angle because both parties are equally at fault but not on purpose. They could have used what happened with Shiho to be that wedge between them which isn’t easily resolved at the start and had Akechi joined the group earlier, I could see him letting the Loki in him stir the beef between them just ever so slightly to where it can’t just be talked out.
Fun Fact: Teddie is my favorite Persona 4 character.
The main character of Golden Boy being named Kintaro makes a lot of sense
Well hey! You see, this sort of general Japanese history/cultural knowledge effects understanding on a lot more than just P4!
i always thought teddie being gross was him trying to be likable by being a comic relief character, considering how much sexual humor there is in anime generally
I'm sure it is to some extent but some of the stuff he does really does go beyond the reasonable bounds of consent
Mostly due to the REALLY bad circumstances he was in to see what humans were like
AKA Shadow Yukiko, Shadow Kanji and Shadow Rise
Bro was never gonna come out right
Pretty sure the crux of Hume's problem of induction is that you can't justify induction with inductive reasoning, i.e. "induction has worked in the past, therefore induction will keep working" is circular reasoning (we have to assume induction to be true for it to be true). There isn't a way to deductively justify an inductive argument, hence the problem of induction.
Yeah, this part that really confused me, it just seemed like a misinterpretation of the problem.
I introduced a friend to P4 and they immediately fell in love with teddie. They understood why I love him almost immediately. Was such a fun thing to see
Shadow Yukiko: Imma score myself a hot stud.
Teddie: It’s a free real estate!
Free real estate
@@HidinginPrivate also, I would love a video on Yu Narukami (mostly the anime).
This just cleared up so many things I didn't quite get even on a second playthrough ❤
Just my opnion but I think Teddie go somewhat out of his way to do "bad" stuff just so he can actually know that its wrong. As many people know, knowing something is bad and actually experiencing it are two different things.
That's a good point. Young people often go through a rebellious streak, and Teddie might be trying this stuff out just to see what it's like, or how much he can get away with
Makes sense. For me Teddie is like a little kid. You can tell them that X thing is wrong but many times they´ll learn from the experience (the bad experience).
the thing that I find the weirdest, obviously Teddy is supposed to be the perverted with a heart of gold archetype, but I always found it weird how his perversion only really manifests once he grows a body. I always wondered, is this an effect of wanting to be human? As a shadow he would never be seen as a potential partner by no one but once he ha sa body he is all over it
I think had the game explored that angle more, it’d be easier to make sense of his perversion in context since it’s because Teddie is born as the Shadow not the Ego. The Ego is formed after his Shadow while it’s the opposite for everybody else around him. He has the Id and Super Ego but the Ego isn’t fully formed enough to balance both out.
That would make a really intriguing exploration of the self. Having a desire before having everything else.
The mythology around Teddie was really cool! I like hearing you talk about this stuff because I'll see the names like Izanagi or Amaterasu and not really know any of the mythology behind it. I love everyone in the main cast but hoo boy some of Teddie's scenes go too far. I actually forgot about the two times he just groped Rise like that. You can throw that in with scenes like the Chie money incident or the camping trip swimsuit part as stuff I'll never try to justify characters I like doing to the other homies. At the end of the day though, Teddie is still ride or die for Yu and his friends like you said so I still love the guy. His character arc was pretty good and he does grow as a person by the end of the game. Awesome job explaining Teddie, Hiding! I'm stoked to watch your Yosuke and Chie vids soon!
Those should be the 2 upcoming Saturday vids! I adress the swimsuit and money scenes in their respective parts along with other flaws. Hope to see your thoughts!
I love Teddie he’s my favorite Persona character period :)
teddie is such a weird character. most things he does are modelled off what people do. but at the same time he is somewhat self aware? i saw the other comment about katakana and stuff and i feel like if we had stuff like that in english itd make a huge difference.
also i loved the segment on shitty philosophies.
like, what differentiates humans from other animals is our ingenuity.
scared because you dont have a fire? make one. depressed because of lack of purpose? find one. worried you dont have an identity? create one. in a way teddies and maries links are really similar because both involve finding out that they arent human and they are something they dont want to be. marie overcomes that by being forced to live. teddie overcomes it by being forced to introspect and try harder
theres too much for my usual single focus analysis comments and also i forgot my pre-video comment lmao
homeless? just buy a house 😂
@@vivvy_0 build one in the forest out of logs and scrap metal
@@vivvy_0 also i know you're joking but im only talking about things within our control not systems built to make us suffer
One of the most interesting Persona 4 videos so far. Great work!
Thanks!
I am so sorry for this joke...
6:59 - Many Rises Make up pieces of the true Her.
Rises Pieces.
Nah that's clever. Funne
i hope these videos get the views they deserve
If we Take away his pervy moments he is one of my favorite persona characters right behind yosuke and morgana
I just caught up and a new video comes out, woohoo!!
This was a very good, well written and thought out analysis. I can’t wait to see how you handle the other main characters! The mythology about Teddie was particularly interesting. It was really cool to see background for things about him I didn’t know about and how well integrated it was in the story yet how it wasn’t required prior knowledge to really understand him. But knowing it makes him and his story even more clear! Really enjoyed that part.
You say you’ll analyze “every part” of persona 4 golden so I wonder how specific that will get or if it’s more broad in categories like story, characters, symbolism, etc. I’m asking because I think it would be particularly interesting to see your analysis of Yu’s relationships with the other characters esp his teammates because while the Links are covered it’s always centered about the Link’s owner and not about Yu and how he might feel or care about the characters. This might get covered in a Yu analysis but I’d be really interested to see on the flip side of how Yu influences others you’d cover how he is influenced by them and how close he feels to them, or feelings he has hidden between reactions or with what’s implied he’s said. (He’s a much more expressive guy than he seems when you pay attention to him!! He laughs and talks and reacts a lot more than Joker did, I noticed it right away how expressive he is, which is actually interesting given how the names of his stats are different and expression is one of them. I’d also be interested to hear your thoughts about how his stats are represented in the name and what he does to grow them!) Like I said it might be covered in his analysis since you’ll probably talk about the Arcana and what the represent for him but I just wanted to put it out there in case you didn’t consider it before!!
Thanks for the video, can’t wait for more :)
21:25 you thought you could sneak oki's theme in there without anyone noticing? Well i did.
Oh boy, we're getting into the main cast now..
*readies popcorn for the videos on the only braincell in the investigation team and cabbage boi
Which one holds the only brain cell in your opinion? And yes, the main cast videos start now
@@HidinginPrivate Personally, Naoto. Being an ace detective aside, I was really impressed when she manipulated the group into almost yeeting Namatame into the tv world.
@@HidinginPrivate I'm curious to see if you put out a video on Yu himself
sometimes it seems like the devs throw in moments that are just gross because they think it's funny or whatever to uplift the mood and it just falls flat. (Like the ryuji moment in p5 after shido's dungeon goes boom. Why would you beat someone up after they're revealed to be alive what the FUCK)
Your work is amazing!
Hey new video! It's Teddie Time!
It's Teddie Time indeed!
As a Teddie enjoyer this video makes me very happy :))
I'm glad!
Kuma is such a underrated character.
Can't wait for the Rise video!
It will be coming the week after the Kanji segment! Gonna try to do the investigation team in order now!
@@HidinginPrivate aww shit, that's even better! Kenji is such a great character and my personal fav :)))
Teddie like Morgana has the hate way overblown, but teddie I can get a little more. Morgana I feel like people really overreact and leave out the good to hate on him.
This video vlew me away! Not only was it a million times better than expected, but also that absolute destruction of existentialism has made me convinced that this project is in good hands.
I can't quite remember how they translated the 熊田/熊だ pun, but I feel like I remember it being enough of a disaster to be surprised you didn't mention it with all your 日本語上手ness.
Great video!!
I tried not to keep with too many exact things that I didn't think made substantial change in the game's intent. Although sometimes I did refer back to the Japanese during my research phase. Didn't wanna get too lost in the weeds. But yes, nihongo jouzu indeed (dogen voice)
Been waiting for this one.
Here it is
3:10 oh my god. As an Irish man this pronunciation is insane. All the vowels in “setanta” are spoken in a slender form (set ant ah) and the two “C”s in Cúchullain is sharp whereas the first ú is a long sound (cooh cull ann)
While teddy is my least favorite of the mascots we've gotten so far, (and nothing will likely ever top Koromaru for me personally) I've always still liked him. Even if he can be incredibly cringe worthy and often outright creepy at times. I never really quite noticed just how heavily he picks up the comic relief roll from Yosuke upon his introduction into the real world part of the cast until you mentioned it though I tend to forget how heavily Yosuke gets used for gags in the first part of the game outside of the initial "critical hit to the nads" scene(s) and the series constant broke high schooler jokes throughout the game (which always felt weird to me in the series due to me constantly sitting on as much yen as a Yakuza game half the time.
Also just want to state that the "debunking bad philosophers" line caught me completely off guard and I nearly chocked on my lunch hearing that. Especially as someone with a facination in philosophy and psychology. Been really enjoying this series so far and it's been a really exciting moment every time I see the notification of one going live so thanks for putting in the hard work
I'm glad I could make an observation that resonated there. I find a lot of things about teddie annoying but he also has a certain subtle depth that I really appreciate. Really Hugh highs and really low lows
The subtle depth of character writing in Persona is what really drawns me to the games personally. I've always found it's strategy gameplay and difficultly to be a little underwhelming personally especially as a long time fan of the main line SMT games (where I'm used to getting my ass kicked even when I'm playing well) but what I keep coming back and playing Persona for is the stories and characters. A lot of games can't afford to go to indepth with their characters or simply choose not to because it's easier to make a one note simple character with maybe a handful of personality traits and then just flanderize the characters from there. Persona on the other hand often does the opposite presenting you with characters who on the surface seem to be one way but are far far deeper than that to the point you sometimes feel bad for writing them off in that way. It's one of the main reasons I've been loving this series so far because the depth and nuances of the characters and the deeper meanings that may have been lost in translation or due to differing cultures is something I've really enjoyed you pointing out especially how it ties into the myths as the indepth of Japanese mythology is probably the aspect of Japanese culture I'm some of the least familiar with mostly just knowing the main gods and a cliff notes summary of shintoism. I wouldn't have made the golden boy connection to him at all outside of just knowing it's his persona's name
@@ImperialPatchesKnowing Persona can really go to such depths really makes me wish the series would just cast off the bad anime tropes because those tends to stick out like sore thumbs in a work where strong character writing is in effect and really hold them back.
It's Teddie! Wow! The character I'm really annoyed with but who has some really great moments!
Wait till we get the Chie segment yaaaaaaay
I always found Teddie's "upcoming" to be so odd. Cause he basically explains that he was a shadow that wanted to be more than a shadow, but for every single on that we have seen across the entire series, it really makes me wonder if any shadow has the capability to actually form into better beings like Teddie. Is Teddie just a single exception, or is any shadow capable of just turning into Teddie just like that
Like I said in the video, I believe that it is likely because izanami intended teddie for part of his plan, but by her giving him the "other teddie" it backfired and he instead created an ego from the two separate beings
@@HidinginPrivate Average "I'm not a cat" coper vs the Average "grow a body through sit-ups" enjoyer
I'm so sorry, I know it's really dickish to come in and correct pronunciation in a video but the figure Setanta turns into is pronounced Coo Cullen with hard Cs. Love your analysis videos on Persona and will continue to watch through this series!
Your videos are great! Wow! Keep it up!
That moment when you said "Teddie!" And showed Morgan'a dancing and then moved out made me laugh so bad.
Great analysis regarding Teddie. He can get annoying and drags the fanservice joke from time to time, but still cant help but love him in the end. His growth and personal struggles just shine too brightly for me. If he was similar to Yosuke with showing more maturity over the course of the game he would have been far more liked.
Feels like the game really wants it’s cake and eat it with the comic relief. A problem that effects P5 as well.
Or to make a comparison, is there a Toy Story film where they bring back TS 1 Delusional Toy Buzz Lightyear in some capacity? Something the writers can’t seem to ever leave alone after 1 because they enjoyed it the first time around?
Nice work once again.
Thank you
We are contradictions but we are able to understand what we are to be what we want to be
I like the video as usual.
But was it intentional on not covering his arcana the Star.
Yeah, since his social link sorta just integrates with the plot I thought I would cover the star arcana elsewhere
All of the videos are great, not just the rise one.
Thanks! Hope you enjoy the Rise segment once it is out!
God I love your videos ❤
16:38: Which is why the "butter passing bot" is so horribly callous.
Rick and Marty? Yeah
I already know he's Lucifer, I saw it on Game Theory
You were talking about the only heinous thing he does that isn't warranted was groping Rise. But in my opinion the entire section at the beach is messed up. He tries to take all the girls swimsuits off, then actually takes Kanji's off
Ah, that is true. If I had to retroactively think why I didn't scrutinize that more, I think it's because it seems to come from a playful misunderstanding of social norms and is equally applied from the men and women of the friend group. It's much earlier in the story and so more of an argument can be made from misunderstanding, with Rise though, it's nearly the end of the game and in my mind he is really without any reasonable excuse by that point. That said, yes what he does at the beach is obviously innapropriate
Thanks for the video.
Thanks for commenting as always U!
When talking about the past present and future thing I was thinking right as you read it, "What? No. That's not how this works. This whole thing is... What's the word for it?" Then you explained your opinion on the subject and that it's pretentious, and that was exactly the word I was thinking of.
Haha yeah, some of Hume's stuff seems like it's sniffing itself quite a bit. Other than Locke as a rebuttal, the way these other philosophers contribute to Izanami/other teddie's ideology were used as ways to de-abstract them and criticize the vuewpoint
What's frustrating about the characters getting perverted is that it really does just pull them out of character. It's blatant that, within the game's narrative, these characters KNOW better. So it's really just the writers projecting their own perversion onto them, and it makes the characters look bad for something that realistically, they simply wouldn't actually do. And that's what makes it hard to hate these characters for these acts.
There are two types of people, those who love Teddie, and those who are wrong.
There are plenty of good reasons to dislike him but people who write him off are certainly wrong. There is so much more to his character that I have never seen people talk about (so I made this video) even after the game being out as long as it has
If existence is meaningless then we create meaning by being the contradiction
This seems to be the inversion of one of Nyarlathotep's quotes: "Understand that there is no point in living." Nyarly talks a lot about "contradiction" this and "contradiction" that. Funny enough, I think Teddie's mere existence IS a contradiction due to him being a Shadow. What a good quote you made. It fits Teddie perfectly.
More algorithm fodder for the amazing persona youtuber!
Thankyouuu this vid needs it!
Yooooooo new vid
Yoooo we got the big ones coming now
isss my boi tedddy less go
Yoooooo
Teddie coming up from the floor also parallells all other shadows you approachin dungeons.
3:20 hey just a heads up , Cú Cuhlainn is pronunced like coup-cull-hinn. That's how the myth has it pronounced
Teddy is the living embodiment of if I rizz everyone I’ll get a bite
9:42 You mean *bearification*
How could we forget Teddie's one of many other occurrences of sexual harassment? The time where he joked that his hand might slip and accidentally pull off of the girls' bathing suits at the beach.. and then he does this except to Kanji mistaking him for one of the girls. Just truly hilarious behavior, what a lovable scamp that Teddie....
The part about Hume and the problem of Induction isn’t entirely correct. Hume is referring to cause and effect, and how it can’t be known because we never observe the necessary connection between the two actions. I.e there is room for doubt in any conclusion about what caused something to occur, thus we cannot know anything to do with cause and effect. As cause and effect are how the scientific method works, we can never know that any scientific theory is true.
Hume isn’t saying that there is no truth of anything like that, but rather due to the inductive nature of cause and effect, we can never prove it.
The problem of induction is very difficult to disprove and has yet to be since Hume proposed it in the 18th century. The criticism you have made isn’t very good, and the whole section isn’t a great explanation of Hume.
Casually dropping some philosophy. That brought to mind one of my favourite passages from a Terry Pratchett book. This is from The Hogfather, part of his Diskworld series.
“All right," said Susan. "I'm not stupid. You're saying humans need... fantasies to make life bearable."
REALLY? AS IF IT WAS SOME KIND OF PINK PILL? NO. HUMANS NEED FANTASY TO BE HUMAN. TO BE THE PLACE WHERE THE FALLING ANGEL MEETS THE RISING APE.
"Tooth fairies? Hogfathers? Little-"
YES. AS PRACTICE. YOU HAVE TO START OUT LEARNING TO BELIEVE THE LITTLE LIES.
"So we can believe the big ones?"
YES. JUSTICE. MERCY. DUTY. THAT SORT OF THING.
"They're not the same at all!"
YOU THINK SO? THEN TAKE THE UNIVERSE AND GRIND IT DOWN TO THE FINEST POWDER AND SIEVE IT THROUGH THE FINEST SIEVE AND THEN SHOW ME ONE ATOM OF JUSTICE, ONE MOLECULE OF MERCY. AND YET-Death waved a hand. AND YET YOU ACT AS IF THERE IS SOME IDEAL ORDER IN THE WORLD, AS IF THERE IS SOME...SOME RIGHTNESS IN THE UNIVERSE BY WHICH IT MAY BE JUDGED.
"Yes, but people have got to believe that, or what's the point-"
MY POINT EXACTLY.”
You CAN treat the world as the existentialists and nihilists do, or you can choose to live otherwise.
I'm not 100% on this since it's been a while since I've been through the base game, but I kinda got the impression Teddies general inappropriateness with women and Kanji was due to him being influenced by meeting the shadows of Yukiko, Kanji and Rise as some of his first interactions after really coming into being as "Teddie", all of whom are inappropriately horny. Still sucks though, if that was the intention then a better game woulda had him learn better, while P4 is unfortunately content to leave it as an annoying trait and a scummy kind of fanservice.
I can't help but feel your take in misinformed and somewhat slanted with intersections like "a better game would have __" while also using this judgement on an interpretation that is at best a headcannon. I think you should try looking at P4 with a broader perspective
As for the ideas about Teddie mirroring people and their secret desires, i want to highlight what Contrapoints said in her video "Twilight": "Fantasies are not a literal wishes. Fantasies construct situations were emotional needs are met and inhibitions to pleasure are removed." This has the dual implication that 1) catering to secret desires-- like Teddie arguably attempts to-- will never land well with people because it's not something people actually want met or taken so seriously, and that 2) Teddie himself serves as fantasy: constructing "fan service" situations while unburdening responsibility of those same situations from the audience, the other characters, and even himself because "he's like a child and doesn't know better." You see this concept of "guiltless" guilty pleasure situations all the time in other anime (think any time there's something unnecessarily lewd-- especially in the magic system). Anime writers know such situations are wrong, but they indulge in them anyway using in-universe justifications and slapstick disavowals to insulate themselves from reproach right alongside their audience who consumes the same fantasy. The weird thing about Persona 4 is that it makes those fan service situations flop harder than typical *and* continues them without addressing it as part of Teddie's character arc. It's like a weird meta thing of "you want to see this thing happen that you've seen so often on tv, so we'll give you it the whole time, but surprise it actually sucks when it happens with any amount of realism." At the same time, I can't tell if this was a deliberate move or just the writers having (somewhat) better priorities while feeding their fantasies like so many other anime writers
Anyway, I didn't think about the vault aspect of Kintatou being a reversal of "emptiness"; that was really cool. Something I'll add is that the cape could represent heroism like with superheroes and such, and that the very mechanical design could represent artifice and deliberate crafting of his persona, though I'm not sure about that as i am regarding the cape. Still like the historical reference tho!
I feel like Teddie would be more likeable if he didn't know what he was doing was not ok, like it was something he picked up off of people and didn't know it was awful
Any connection here to the doctrine of Instantaneous Comprehension - the Christian mythic idea that (roughly) angels never grow, never change, and know everything there is to know about who and what they are from the moment they're created?
let's not forget teddie existed as a shadow for most his life, the id or in lamens terms the devil on you shoulder whispering carnal and selfish thoughts in you ear so him being more naughty makes sense
I love the random Chris sighting
I love Chris Broad
I like Teddie, he's a weird dude you can't help but feel attached to no matter how weird he is