A strange feeling when getting a perfect with Gief is looking at the meter gain and realizing the other guy is just barely behind you, it is so bizarre.
The real issue with it is that SF doesn't have much throw protection. If it worked like most other fighters where there's like 4-6f of throw protection instead of 2f, grapplers could be given more tools to compensate for strike vs command grab no longer being a true 50/50 due to fuzzy defense options.
@@chungusumungus4004 There's 2F of throw protection in SF6? I thought since SFIV there's been 0F throw protection (on wake up). It's why throw loops exist now. I absolutely think throw protection (which was in _every Capcom fighter before SFIV_ ) on wake should come back. Gets rid of throw loops, also makes wake up pressure less oppressive and less of a pure guessing game. Hell, I'd take throw protection after hit/block stun like in CvS2 as well, but that might be a bit much. But I _really_ want it back on wakeup.
I disagree that it is entirely Abigail's fault, though you are right that the rancor over the character was severe. People complained early and often about Zangief in SF4 too. Green hand was slain forever because of its power in SF4. The hatred was more palpable for Abi because he was a new SF character (even if an ancient Capcom character) and he is also a very over the top character aesthetically. The elephant in the room is that grapplers are never meant to be top tier characters in SF. If they happen to have some powerful tools it is in spite of the devs intentions and whenever it happens it is a virtual guarantee that the grappler will be nerfed soon thereafter. I'm not sure exactly of the reason why "grapplers must be terrible" is a sacred cow in SF, but the tradition continues to go strong with the Red Cyclone being at or towards the bottom of the heap in SF6.
To me Gief feels weak in a way that he's not "supposed to" Some of his moves, especially level 1, don't work the way they should It's like he has all the tools he needs, but some of those tools are broken and don't work right sometimes
You are so right man , that's absolutely true. Personnaly i don't care if they make something différent for him. Just make his tools work as it should ( expecially the lariat it make me become mad)
"when your anti air loses to a jump in that's the opposite of fun" I feel that in my soul, I know I'm bad but that's like my strongest feeling with Marisa
It also doesn’t help that SF6 has some insanely good jump-ins. Luke and Ken both just jump in, press j.HP, and some characters in the game basically can’t handle it
I am hoping season 2 address this. While drive rush and throw loops have gotten the highlight, but there's also a very strong correlation between anti air capability and tiering/placements right now. If the AKI lunge being a proper frame 1 anti projectile is true, I can only hope that Capcom is buffing those "X invulnerable" type moves throughout the cast which X should include air.
True, if you are struggling with Marisa anti-airs I recommend charging light Gladius for same side and letting go as soon as you see that you armored something. It’s pretty rewarding and lets you react much later than with crouch heavy if you can do the move fast. Unfortunately it isn’t as rewarding is crouch H and empty jump throw can be a little challenging, though if you react at a specific range of timings the throw will get counterhit by the full charge version which will make them reconsider their life choices. Unfortunately, the big problem comes if you don’t react early enough to a potential crossup. Then you have to go for a perfect parry and pray. I really hope they give her and Gief something better to deal with crossups. Gief they just need to revert their dumb lariat change but they probably won’t.
I'm actually fine with Gief needing to Drive Rush after SPD for oki too. I'm less fine, however, with how he has to burn all his Drive just to get in and do a single combo that doesn't even do that much damage. He's way too dependent on meter to do anything in SF6 and half the time it still doesn't work (EX lariat getting stuffed by jump-ins, level 1 super whiffing, level 2 super getting blocked as a reversal and even as a fireball punish).
@@gameclips5734 The problem with not having a strike game with your strike-throw mixup is that it hurts your mixup. Why not jump every time they get close if their best meterless combo doesn't do any damage? Not saying that's what gief's problem is right now, but more just a grappler design philosophy.
@@gameclips5734 Nobody is asking for high damage combos, its just giving him combos that dont tickle the opponent. In SFV he had extremely basic combos but they did decent damage and that was ok. Here in 6 if you cash out immediately into lariat from a medium its not that much damage and it also can be inconsistent depending on range. But then if you decide to pump meter into your combo then its just the light button rodeo where Gief is hitting you with pillows 8 times.
@@gameclips5734 You're right. Invalidating half his mix and making it so he has to put himself in burnout just to do less damage than another character's BnB is much better design.
@@brent7215 you make it sound like his combos do no damage though, i've never watched a high level gief and thought man gief just does no damage with his combos. he has some incredibly strong DR combos but yes, if you mix in lots of lights and DR then damage is heavily scaled like any character.
The comment about buffer storage is actually why I have issues woth DPs/fireballs in sf6 (at least on pad), the foward input while moving staying for a while had me DPing too much.
@@tatzooismI use stick, and learned to just do it the hard way and just getting percise with it. Tbf though, my character doesn't have projectiles. I do remember trying to do Jamie's break dance through Guile's booms and ended up ex dp lol was annoying
He has other buttons.. I've played maybe 100 games just doing SPD got to silver with a 65% win rate (I'm waiting for akuma, Tekken player) 720 helps too
With the word that they are potentially nerfing Honda's tools, I'd be interested to see what you think of playing him (I think he might be the worst character in the game). Gief needs more things to do with his drive rush. I think he will be aided by some of the system changes and the few reported changes will help. But he is dominated by good rushdown and strong zoning, when piloted by people that know what they are doing.
Honda needs to be redesigned. Top 1 on ranked with win rates of over 55% in most ranks but almost 0 competitive representation. Hopefully he gets some buffs to the rest of his kit to complement the headbutt/buttslam nerfs
@@lolozo214 why? he works just fine. i am pretty sure he was designed to be something like a meter burn grappler with normal combos. His headbutt is suppose to drain meters, you go into burn out and than he uses his normal to get ++ frames to use his command grab. that's basically the idea behind honda. What is the issue? He doesn't do that. First, everyone will attempt to perfect parry his headbutt so his "meter loss" strategy doesn't function to get people into burn out and the other aspect is that his neutral game is total trash. He's not playable when the opponent has meter gauge. Most if not all his regular moves are worse then counter-part of other characters. Another aspect is that i don't see many honda's use his command grab. Maybe it doesn't do enough damage but people wilfully ignore the move. He's a character that just simply needs buffs until people realize his strengths then he might turn broken so the point that SF6 might need nerf him. This happens with a lot of character like that.
@@HellecticMojo He's saying that Honda's kit isn't bad even though it's simple. Saying Honda is bad is dumb even though Honda has his weaknesses. He's explaining in what ways Honda is good, but agreeing that Honda isn't the best. But to buff him would make people see how busted his kit is then it'd be too late.
I personally think the anti air thing is what hurts my zangief experience the most. Not being able to trust your anti air to the point that you're better off just not doing it and giving away free jump ins is just a terrible experience.
I really feel like the light version of Siberian Express should always be the armorless one, medium could have one tick of armor, and heavy could have two; I can’t tell you how many times I’m at that awkward range right in between the two and I always end up getting the wrong one because my opponent moves a pixel forward or backward. Also give me a reason to use crouch hp
@@aaronp2542 the stuff I’m talking about isn’t how it actually is but rather how I wish I was; the different strengths might go cover different distances but I can’t remember
Rather than saying the tier list doesn't matter for 95% of players, I would argue that the tier list changes from skill level to skill level, or perhaps even from player to player. If you're a beginner player, and you don't know how to avoid getting command grabbed by Zangief, then Zangief becomes the best character in the game, because he only needs to command grab you three times to beat you.
This 100%. This is my first Street Fighter and I only buy fighting games if there are at least two characters that look cute or cool to me (Ragna & Litchi: BlazBlue, Mila & Diego: DOA, etc). For SF6 that was Kimberly and Cammy, so I choose to main both of them. I tried Kimberly first because red being my favorite color and man did it get much harder when I got to Gold ranks with her. I ended switching to Cammy and it was night and day. So when people say tier list don't matter, I'm just like really cause most people put Kimberly bottom 5 and I only got to Gold 3 with her until I switched to Cammy (who some people put in the mid 7s) and got to Platinum with ease.
You're not really talking about the same thing. You're actually kind of proving his point. If you're losing to Zangief because you don't understand the matchup, you are part of the 95% that tier lists don't matter for. It's true that some characters have a pretty high floor for basic operability, with simple game plans that are easy to implement. They can also have very low ceilings for optimal play, which becomes evident when both people are playing their characters optimally. If both players are not playing optimally, then tier lists have very little value.
@@DragonK-rt3uh It's easier to get away with little matchup knowledge, execution, etc at lower levels with stronger characters because your opponents don't know that much either. While it's true that some characters have more effective tools and plans than others, that does not imply that improvement is linear, and your rank will only get higher as you choose 'stronger' characters. Strong tools will give you a false sense of improvement, despite the pretty rank number going up. What good is your plat cammy when you face a gief or honda that legitimately knows and has practiced the matchup? How would a tier list then apply to YOU in particular?
@@TheBlarghisay I never intended to dispute his point. All I'm saying is that it's an oversimplification of reality. Saying tier lists don't matter for 95% of the playerbase may technically be true, but it doesn't really paint an accurate picture. Saying the tier list changes based on skill level is a little bit more enlightening and accurate to reality, I think. If low level players tend to struggle with Zangief, then that means Zangief is a high tier character at low level. Pretty simple concept, I think.
@@guitaroachHow it implies to me, well it depends on the format of the tier list and who is making the tier list. Most video tier lists I watch gives a reason why a character was place in a certain tier and explains their strengths and weakness, also how that character plays. I also watch a ton of tier lists from respected players and CC in the FGC (Diaphone, Punk, Brian_F, Max, fighting select, etc); from all these tier lists you usually can see a pattern of which characters are the strongest and with this information I usually can guess which characters most people will flock to and who I should spend more time Labbing against. So what I'm trying to say is a tier list can be very informative to me and help me improve my game knowledge.
Around at the @12:00 ish mark where you begin to perfectly summarize the difference b/w top tiers and ”low” tiers in SF6 and overall game quality. Luke, Ken, Juri, DJ, etc. (not in order) can consistently execute their game plan (sometimes on auto pilot) while others like Ryu, Gief etc. have to be so planful on spacing and quick in game decisions just to get simple stuff like proper advantage from whiff punishes (i.e, Ryus best whiff punish is his sweep (due to distance)..But he isn’t an oki character so….), BnB combs (Luke has 100 combo routes for all his supers, they all get oki, etc. Why?), and damage. Great breakdown vid Broski.
6:59 There is only one grappler brain, we're all just connected to it telepathically. Edit: Did you know that 6:69 isn't a real thing? Apparently I didn''t. It's a very nice timestamp, though.
Tier lists do effect gold players, but not in the same way. Gold Honda is probably the best gold character lol. But also, normal tier lists dont only start at the *highest level* You ended at 1700? Thats pretty high but far from the highest level . I think high diamond to master is about where conventional tier lists start to matter. And if you can't see how DJ in lowish master has manifested advantages over gief.... Idk what to say for you.
Took me a while to get Manon to diamond With JP if I hadn't D/C'd in the placement matches I'd have done it from the get go. So yeah, they matter. At every level.
You’re one of my favorite players/commentators to watch take on new characters. Love hearing your breakdowns and also seeing the satisfaction you find in new toolsets. Saying “jackhammer” along with gief is icing on the cake
Consistency of whiff punish combos from range, is a very strong point. I feel that stand MP Target Combo being able to pull opponents towards Z on the first hit would rectify those Drive Rush Cancels and also reduce the full Target Combo whiffing. Superb commentary as usual Broski!
8:57 I think there’s a lot more complexity to this issue than just saying that tiers do or don’t matter for most levels of play. It’s not that tier lists don’t matter at levels beside the high level, it’s that the tier lists are different at different levels of play. Honda in this game is a tremendous example of my point. At the tournament level he isn’t strong at all. But at a low level he is the best character in the game. As an addendum to this, you then immediately go on to mention inconsistencies that will absolutely affect almost every level of play. Sure, it maybe isn’t the same thing as the pro level tier list mattering, but weaker players are weaker players precisely because they lack the ability to work around some of these inconsistencies.
I just feel people at the top level just ignore low level people. I’m of the camp that different levels and different tier list. Obviously not optimized reactions, execution, anti airs and mental does affect this..
This is something the tekken community know very well. Most the best tekken characters are BAD at average level of play. Steve is too hard. Gigas was terrible, but a new player could do a lot with him
Tiers exist and do matter. but I suppose for weaker players they dont matter unless a character is completely hopeless (like in Gundam Versus or in League of Legends when a character is intentionally gutted) or straight up inferior (see Human Smoke vs Skorpion in Ultimate Mortal Kombat 3)
5:18 whats funny about the 720 buffer is that you can also use its input for level 1, so you can buffer the 720, walk forward, and if you see the pre-jump frames you can hit kicks and get level 1 instead
Gief's Super 1, they should add that you can adjust the angle of the jump depending of the button press, straight up, in angle, and jump horizontally in front of him.
Gief is one of my favorite characters in the game. Which is funny because I hate playing him. He is incredibly satisfying but also incredibly frustrating. He gets absolutely rolled by rushdown but also absolutely rolled by zoning. This leads him to be in a wierd place where he's supposed to get in but can easily loose that to a lot of characters even on the defensive. He has a lot of good tools but a lot of them also do not work (lariat in combos and anti fireball, m.p TC flat out missing on hit, etc). I don't want him to be broken, I just wish they put a bit more care into him as a character. Because he is insanely fun to play when he actual works.
Tier lists absolutely matter, the thing with tier lists is they are meant for comparison with similar skill players. If you're a legend player on multiple characters of course tier lists won't matter when you fight golds-diamonds.
the idea is tier lists only matter when skill level is equal, not just at top level (you think that cuz you are at the top) but tier lists also change from skill level to another. Cuz there is potential and ease of execution to count for
I agree his SPD oki is fine but what I don't like and its something I'm really sad you didn't talk about is how many of his moves just don't have a use. Suplex for example should be the command grab that gets decent oki, right now you get a dash up standing light kick but you still have to burn a drive rush to get anything after that. Which sounds better because with SPD you have to burn a bar to get in and a bar after drive rush but SPD doesn't side swap you and put you in the corner, it also doesn't have 10 FUCKING FRAMES of start up and its range isn't literally point blank. If the move is going to be that fucking slow and that close range (so much so that you often push people outside the range with even a fucking jab on block) then it should have some tangible use over SPD. His other moves are like this 2, running bear grab isn't that great you can sometimes use it to catch people sleeping after a standing light kick but not often. At least let his EX bear grab have armor close range after like frame 3 - 5 so he can armor through some move, make it only upper body armor on strikes so lows and projectiles blow through it if you want it to have some downsides. Just anything to make that move have some utility. The less said about Tundra Storm the fucking better.... But its also a lot of his normals as well.... Like you touched on how utterly useless his C.HP is but he has other normals like this. For example his command normal 3 HK the grounded drop kick, I think this move is suppose to be used to try and crush lows when they are in the corner but there are better options and it being so unsafe means its never going to be used. I have landed this maybe once in over a thousand games. Then you have his stomps which is by far the coolest fucking command normal he has. I love this move so much, which makes it all the more shitty that its so fucking useless. The only thing you see this used for 999 out of a 1000 is to frame kill your 3 throw. His flying headbutt is also kind of shit, in SFV this was an okay move because it did way more stun than any other air normal but with stun gone its not doing anything meaningful. It does have a neat effect where its special cancelable so you can OD air SPD after landing it. But because it has 8 frames of startup and air SPD only has 4 you are better off just doing air SPD because those 4 frames of start only really ever gets you hit when trying it. I also think Charging your Jump HK should make it safe on block, give it massive push back or something. Its so easy to anti air if its not it should at least be safe, also make it wall bounce on normal hit as well rather than just counter hits. So many of giefs stools just flat out dont work or do nothing and it sucks.
You're not wrong about Gief vs Guile not being bad for Gief. It's pretty even because Gief really isn't any worse than most other characters at getting in on Guile in particular. It's also my personal best matchup as Gief, for whatever reason.
Hardest matchup for Gief is Lily, she can keep distance without using projectiles. Also how does your Gief not look shiny and more matte, is there a visual settings for it?
What's the use for Russian Suplex (halfcircle kick near)? They walk back - it whiffs, almost like I would want Siberian Express for an armor hit sometimes.
Mainly I use it for drive impact oki. When you drive impact for a punish counter to get the crumple you can sacrifice some damage for better oki. spd Dr oki isn't real from drive impact combos, the suplex oki is.
Everybody seems to think that saying a tier list doesn't affect them is some kind of personal attack, when I'd argue the existence of no definitive tier list shows that the highest level players are aiming it towards themselves; we have no single tier list because we are not (and cannot be) at the theoretical limit, therefore we make tierlists based on the [biased] opinions of the people who are as close to where we are currently. This is why it doesn't matter to anyone in e.g. gold - it technically isn't accurate for anyone at any rank, however it's the closest thing we can get to accurate, and those players are the closest things we have to perfect play. It also explains why tier lists are different between players, they are always slightly biased.
9:13 I disagree. Tier lists not only matter at the top lv. They matter when players are of, or close to, equal skill level.That's when character tools have more of an impact on the outcome. A high lv. player will trounce a new/low lv player, regardless of the matchup. However, if two players in Gold (for ex) are of equal skill, the player using Ken, or DeeJay, or whatever will have an easier time winning than the Gief or Lily player will.
as i gief main i agree with most of what u say. i dont think he needs as many crazy buffs as other giefs think.If I had to pick only a couple buffs I'd pick slightly faster lvl 2 and make jump splash have a little more horizontal range. Also I agree, the spd oki situation is awesome in sf6
You get pretty solid Oki with Drive Rush > 6MK. After the regular version, you're plus enough to enforce another mixup on block or combo into 3MP on hit. OD version is weird and has slightly different timing, but it builds a ton of meter and is good for closing out rounds after a DI crumple since it, like OD SPD, only counts as 1 hit in a combo unlike the regular versions. But it really sucks if you're putting yourself in the corner and the actual range/speed of the grab is abysmal (tiny range + 10f startup on top of needing a proximity trigger). Buff one aspect of it (speed, range, or Oki/positioning), possibly two, and it gets a lot better. My preference is buffing the range and letting him side swap back over if he puts himself in the corner.
I made it to platinum as gief. When I was gold the cracks started showing, and by platinum one everyone knows what giefs weaknesses are. Trying to get out a corner is a frustration, the anti air issue becomes unavoidable, being forced to spend meter constantly to get in etc.
a lot of Gief's combo issues have to do with his piss poor DR not covering distance well at the start. I get where you're coming from with his oki off of SPD being structured, but what does that matter when "you have to be prepared for things to wrong all the time"? The way his oki is structured in this game off SPD makes no sense due to his inconsistencies. It actually works AGAINST him due to all the things you talked about.
Being “Finicky” is definitely not something that Gief should be lol. Like really not in character for him. He is supposed to be a sledgehammer of a character. like he should have l at least one decent short combo into a knockdown that works in absolutely every situation where he can land the starter. You don’t play Gief to worry about the microspacing of your buttons and which of 5 different followups to try to go for from the same starter depending on where you hit it.
I liked playing Gief since first street fighter 2, I think I may attempt to try him in six as another character to master. I'm still waiting for them to put another solid straight up martial arts character into the game for me to try and master. ( Not makoto, although...why not)
I know this is weird to ask, but does anybody know the song that starts playing at like 9:30 or so onwards? Seriously, I've been trying to find this song for so long and I'm desperate to know.
I am one of those players where Tier Lists don't matter, and I agree with a lot of your takes here. Namely, Meter gain ( I don't think his kit allows for it) and consistency. I think the biggest thing you missed, and I think it took me a lot of time to see this, is that there are a few ranges in neutral where he has too many redundant tools. For example, what is the point in neutral of MK? It has a little bit more range S-Mp and basically the same range as C-MK but is 1 frame slower. I don''t think that problem is exclusive to gief, but I think for an archetype (slow grappler) his pokes are crucial to his gameplan and should have better variety to his tools if not just better pokes.
I think he just needs his lariat to hit cross-ups, and make tundra storm immediately stun an opponent because its the hardest read you can make in the game.
Headbutt is DI Cancellable you just have to do it slightly early because sometimes it doesn't come out in time as a DI Reversal. Standing Heavy Armor Break? It already beats DI if timed correctly and if you react fast enough. It should be more like both versions of Lariat should Armor Break. Especially when regular Lariat is a Multi hit move but loses to DI? Yet Marisa's Gladius breaks armor no matter the button used.
I understand *why* capcom is hesitant to give a grappler an invincible reversal. When a grappler has an invincible reversal it makes running offense on them feel *terrible*. What's the standard play against invincible reversals? Bait and punish, right? If you guess wrong no harm no foul, you take no damage because the worst that can happen is you block or shimmy their throw. With a grappler if you opt to bait their invincible reversal and they wake up with command grab... well that sucks for you doesn't it. There is no oki setup that covers both a long range command grab and invincible reversal, meaning that you have to guess *on your offense*, which just sucks. There's probably a way around this to make it more fair for the attacker, but that doesn't exist in SF6 yet.
His meter build is lesser for the same reason Manon's is. You're doing less in neutral as a grappler than you would on other characters and a successful grapple gives you noticeably less meter than a normal combo. Also, it may not seem much but not only do fireballs improve your control over drive meter but it also gives you more super meter over the entire game.
I always say teirs are unimportant at my level, but it can be felt. As a Geif main, I know he's not great in comparison to my Ryu, despite the fact that I know less how to play Ryu than what I know about Geif. While it might not matter, it can be felt.
Down Fierce could be completely removed ok, let's play zangief how I play it, that means removing unreliable stuff so I don't do any of the following. Level 1 Level 2 regular borscht dynamite target combo down fierce offensive Drive Impact tundra storm regular Lariat OD Lariat standing medium kick (that's asking for a drive impact) crouching light kick (that's asking for a drive impact) Russian Suplex anywhere near a corner. So all I have is those ~3 combos that end on lariat and gimmicks, because I'm not good enough to fight Zangief's inconsistent stuff and fight Ken. that's it, we can remove all of that from the character, I wouldn't even consider that a nerf.
10:54 facts exactly. I remember an argument at the start of the game i had where gief is world better in this game than sfv and i was the only one saying the former lol. But yeah it’s p good
I still think Green Hand would be too much since his whole game plan is getting closer and throwing you, but the fact that his Rush and all his lights are so stubby and he doesn't build Super AND his links are fiddly makes me feel like he wasn't in the beta test because he wasn't finished yet and this is as close as they got before 6 shipped.
1:30 everyone thinks Guile vs Gief to be a terrible lopsided MU until they play either character. Gief doesn’t care about fireballs, especially not in a game with parry. It’s slightly in Guile’s favor. I think Gief performs better in the MU than the other grapplers
Make it so his spin can hit people crossing him up, fix his level 1 so it performs more consistently for people in the air. That with his last buff I think would put him in a good spot for a grappler.
These, and StMP always connecting on counterhit and punish counter, are the only buffs I really want for Gief. I don’t mind him being weak in terms of power level, but I just want him to feel like he works properly. Those three aspects of him feel more like bugs and/or oversights than actual intended weaknesses.
@@gameclips5734 he’s has lariat hit behind in previous games and that’s been fine, so I think it would be ok here. It’s also slow as hell at frame 15, so I don’t think it would be a problem if it hit crossups. That being said, if you don’t buy the “legacy” or “power” arguments, that’s fine, but if that’s the case then they should give him something to compensate for losing such a core part of his gameplay. Additionally, if it doesn’t hit crossups, they should have changed the animation so that it doesn’t look like it should hit crossups. Unfortunately, they did neither of these things.
@@Resener1 i definitely agree with making it look more consistent as it doesn't do what you expect it to. You're right about it being slow but idk, i guess the devs expect you to autocorrect or use perfect parry as well
@@gameclips5734 the fact that it’s so slow means that autocorrect doesn’t work, since by the time the opponent jumps over you and gief turns around lariat will hit them on the ground, meaning they just block it. You may be able to do EX lariat because it’s 12 frames, but now you more spending 2 bars for an anti air that may not even hit. The only way he can beat crossups is jump back jLP or jLK, which you never see anyone do because those are not practical to do as a reaction. It’s more or less perfect parry or bust. As a concept, lariat is a fine anti air. Like you said, it’s a “one” button anti air, which, in a vacuum, is pretty good. The problem is that it fails on legacy, power, and aesthetic levels, which means that it feels really bad to use in practice. If they addressed any one of those, I would at least know that Capcom cares about the move, but the fact that they haven’t touched the move at all is really disappointing.
I kinda disagree on the tier lists don't matter part. Like don't get me wrong but even playing a new character you're basically playing against people much worse than you. If two people of similar skills play against each other then character strenght does matter (that character strenght might be different that on the top 1% of the ladder). Granted to don't really play much street fighter but i've just seen this opinion a lot in many games but also seen how switching to a better character makes everything often feel so much easier.
Respectfully but completely disagree that tiers only matter at the top 10% Totally agree however that there are no trash tiers in the game. Also, interesting to hear about Gief's meter build handicap - I thought meter build was more or less consistent acrosss the board.
I’m glad you get to experience the gief/guile mu..Theses morons out here will tell you that guile doesn’t loose to xyz .But don’t understand that geif can fight him good in this game
Игры
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A strange feeling when getting a perfect with Gief is looking at the meter gain and realizing the other guy is just barely behind you, it is so bizarre.
forever curse Abigail for setting back the progress of giving big bodies acces to tools
Extremely based Abigail hate
The real issue with it is that SF doesn't have much throw protection.
If it worked like most other fighters where there's like 4-6f of throw protection instead of 2f, grapplers could be given more tools to compensate for strike vs command grab no longer being a true 50/50 due to fuzzy defense options.
@@chungusumungus4004 There's 2F of throw protection in SF6? I thought since SFIV there's been 0F throw protection (on wake up). It's why throw loops exist now.
I absolutely think throw protection (which was in _every Capcom fighter before SFIV_ ) on wake should come back. Gets rid of throw loops, also makes wake up pressure less oppressive and less of a pure guessing game.
Hell, I'd take throw protection after hit/block stun like in CvS2 as well, but that might be a bit much. But I _really_ want it back on wakeup.
I disagree that it is entirely Abigail's fault, though you are right that the rancor over the character was severe. People complained early and often about Zangief in SF4 too. Green hand was slain forever because of its power in SF4. The hatred was more palpable for Abi because he was a new SF character (even if an ancient Capcom character) and he is also a very over the top character aesthetically.
The elephant in the room is that grapplers are never meant to be top tier characters in SF. If they happen to have some powerful tools it is in spite of the devs intentions and whenever it happens it is a virtual guarantee that the grappler will be nerfed soon thereafter.
I'm not sure exactly of the reason why "grapplers must be terrible" is a sacred cow in SF, but the tradition continues to go strong with the Red Cyclone being at or towards the bottom of the heap in SF6.
There is 1f of throw protection in sf6. You can see this by setting the dummy to do jamie's corner throw loop and checking the frame tracker.
HAHAHA
TIME TO GET SERIOUS
TIME TO GET SERIOUS
ARE YOU SERIOUS
OH NO MY FINISHER!
I'M COMING
@@guitaroach
I heard tf2 heavy INCOMING
THIS IS YOUR LAST RIDE
To me Gief feels weak in a way that he's not "supposed to"
Some of his moves, especially level 1, don't work the way they should
It's like he has all the tools he needs, but some of those tools are broken and don't work right sometimes
That's so true. Manon feels undertuned. Zangief feels like something went wrong in design
Worst of this is definitely lariat not hitting behind at all even though he's clearly spinning in a circle
@@epictehninjawhenever I don’t get hit by that I feel bad
@@epictehninja It drives me nuts that the avatar's lariat actually hits behind while Zangief doesn't.
You are so right man , that's absolutely true. Personnaly i don't care if they make something différent for him. Just make his tools work as it should ( expecially the lariat it make me become mad)
"when your anti air loses to a jump in that's the opposite of fun"
I feel that in my soul, I know I'm bad but that's like my strongest feeling with Marisa
It also doesn’t help that SF6 has some insanely good jump-ins. Luke and Ken both just jump in, press j.HP, and some characters in the game basically can’t handle it
I am hoping season 2 address this. While drive rush and throw loops have gotten the highlight, but there's also a very strong correlation between anti air capability and tiering/placements right now.
If the AKI lunge being a proper frame 1 anti projectile is true, I can only hope that Capcom is buffing those "X invulnerable" type moves throughout the cast which X should include air.
True, if you are struggling with Marisa anti-airs I recommend charging light Gladius for same side and letting go as soon as you see that you armored something. It’s pretty rewarding and lets you react much later than with crouch heavy if you can do the move fast. Unfortunately it isn’t as rewarding is crouch H and empty jump throw can be a little challenging, though if you react at a specific range of timings the throw will get counterhit by the full charge version which will make them reconsider their life choices. Unfortunately, the big problem comes if you don’t react early enough to a potential crossup. Then you have to go for a perfect parry and pray. I really hope they give her and Gief something better to deal with crossups. Gief they just need to revert their dumb lariat change but they probably won’t.
Pre buff rashid… I’ve never been jumped in on so much in my life…
people really don't seem to understand that 'worst' in the game doesn't mean a bad character, i'm glad you spelt it out for them
Gief is not the worst Manon, lily and Honda are much worse
@@cosmic5665 and Jamie
@@HellecticMojo lol
@@HellecticMojo💀
@@cosmic5665 oh, I forgot it was you.
I'm actually fine with Gief needing to Drive Rush after SPD for oki too. I'm less fine, however, with how he has to burn all his Drive just to get in and do a single combo that doesn't even do that much damage. He's way too dependent on meter to do anything in SF6 and half the time it still doesn't work (EX lariat getting stuffed by jump-ins, level 1 super whiffing, level 2 super getting blocked as a reversal and even as a fireball punish).
he wasn't designed to do lots of damaging combos, he's a grappler
@@gameclips5734 The problem with not having a strike game with your strike-throw mixup is that it hurts your mixup. Why not jump every time they get close if their best meterless combo doesn't do any damage?
Not saying that's what gief's problem is right now, but more just a grappler design philosophy.
@@gameclips5734 Nobody is asking for high damage combos, its just giving him combos that dont tickle the opponent. In SFV he had extremely basic combos but they did decent damage and that was ok. Here in 6 if you cash out immediately into lariat from a medium its not that much damage and it also can be inconsistent depending on range. But then if you decide to pump meter into your combo then its just the light button rodeo where Gief is hitting you with pillows 8 times.
@@gameclips5734 You're right. Invalidating half his mix and making it so he has to put himself in burnout just to do less damage than another character's BnB is much better design.
@@brent7215 you make it sound like his combos do no damage though, i've never watched a high level gief and thought man gief just does no damage with his combos. he has some incredibly strong DR combos but yes, if you mix in lots of lights and DR then damage is heavily scaled like any character.
The comment about buffer storage is actually why I have issues woth DPs/fireballs in sf6 (at least on pad), the foward input while moving staying for a while had me DPing too much.
I also had the same until I retrained myself to half circle forward when I want a fireball, that fixed it for me.
@@gabrielrizzo6969 yeah, same. I am slowly switching to leverless and in sf6 it actually helped as I'm pressing back due to using more fingers.
Yeah I just do half circle forward for all my fireballs(on pad). Goldlewis has trained me well
@@tatzooismI use stick, and learned to just do it the hard way and just getting percise with it. Tbf though, my character doesn't have projectiles. I do remember trying to do Jamie's break dance through Guile's booms and ended up ex dp lol was annoying
Just go neutral for a second
Been really cool seeing you go through the five stages of Gief
The best and worst part is that they could remove every button gief has, only leave his spd and I would still main him regardless
Low rank giefs wouldnt even notice lmao they're legends
He has other buttons..
I've played maybe 100 games just doing SPD got to silver with a 65% win rate
(I'm waiting for akuma, Tekken player)
720 helps too
With the word that they are potentially nerfing Honda's tools, I'd be interested to see what you think of playing him (I think he might be the worst character in the game). Gief needs more things to do with his drive rush. I think he will be aided by some of the system changes and the few reported changes will help. But he is dominated by good rushdown and strong zoning, when piloted by people that know what they are doing.
He already did watch?v=wz5e3GbKoyQ
Honda needs to be redesigned. Top 1 on ranked with win rates of over 55% in most ranks but almost 0 competitive representation. Hopefully he gets some buffs to the rest of his kit to complement the headbutt/buttslam nerfs
@@lolozo214 why? he works just fine. i am pretty sure he was designed to be something like a meter burn grappler with normal combos. His headbutt is suppose to drain meters, you go into burn out and than he uses his normal to get ++ frames to use his command grab. that's basically the idea behind honda. What is the issue? He doesn't do that. First, everyone will attempt to perfect parry his headbutt so his "meter loss" strategy doesn't function to get people into burn out and the other aspect is that his neutral game is total trash. He's not playable when the opponent has meter gauge. Most if not all his regular moves are worse then counter-part of other characters. Another aspect is that i don't see many honda's use his command grab. Maybe it doesn't do enough damage but people wilfully ignore the move. He's a character that just simply needs buffs until people realize his strengths then he might turn broken so the point that SF6 might need nerf him. This happens with a lot of character like that.
@@dodang_9147how the hell are you writing an essay on how he works fine then write how it doesn't work? Pick a lane dude.
@@HellecticMojo He's saying that Honda's kit isn't bad even though it's simple. Saying Honda is bad is dumb even though Honda has his weaknesses. He's explaining in what ways Honda is good, but agreeing that Honda isn't the best. But to buff him would make people see how busted his kit is then it'd be too late.
Gief turn green 50 times in a match, but can't do green hand
Green Hand evolved into Green Whole Body. It's plus now.
Green Man
What would he even use green hand for. It was good in like. One game.
@@NeoBoneGirl And only the ex green hand arguably hahaha
would be kinda sick if they brought back green hand but made it a drive rush onlt move
I personally think the anti air thing is what hurts my zangief experience the most. Not being able to trust your anti air to the point that you're better off just not doing it and giving away free jump ins is just a terrible experience.
Siberian Express
I really feel like the light version of Siberian Express should always be the armorless one, medium could have one tick of armor, and heavy could have two; I can’t tell you how many times I’m at that awkward range right in between the two and I always end up getting the wrong one because my opponent moves a pixel forward or backward. Also give me a reason to use crouch hp
Wait the strength of the button matters? I thought it was all distance
@@aaronp2542 the stuff I’m talking about isn’t how it actually is but rather how I wish I was; the different strengths might go cover different distances but I can’t remember
Rather than saying the tier list doesn't matter for 95% of players, I would argue that the tier list changes from skill level to skill level, or perhaps even from player to player. If you're a beginner player, and you don't know how to avoid getting command grabbed by Zangief, then Zangief becomes the best character in the game, because he only needs to command grab you three times to beat you.
This 100%. This is my first Street Fighter and I only buy fighting games if there are at least two characters that look cute or cool to me (Ragna & Litchi: BlazBlue, Mila & Diego: DOA, etc). For SF6 that was Kimberly and Cammy, so I choose to main both of them. I tried Kimberly first because red being my favorite color and man did it get much harder when I got to Gold ranks with her. I ended switching to Cammy and it was night and day. So when people say tier list don't matter, I'm just like really cause most people put Kimberly bottom 5 and I only got to Gold 3 with her until I switched to Cammy (who some people put in the mid 7s) and got to Platinum with ease.
You're not really talking about the same thing. You're actually kind of proving his point. If you're losing to Zangief because you don't understand the matchup, you are part of the 95% that tier lists don't matter for.
It's true that some characters have a pretty high floor for basic operability, with simple game plans that are easy to implement. They can also have very low ceilings for optimal play, which becomes evident when both people are playing their characters optimally. If both players are not playing optimally, then tier lists have very little value.
@@DragonK-rt3uh It's easier to get away with little matchup knowledge, execution, etc at lower levels with stronger characters because your opponents don't know that much either. While it's true that some characters have more effective tools and plans than others, that does not imply that improvement is linear, and your rank will only get higher as you choose 'stronger' characters. Strong tools will give you a false sense of improvement, despite the pretty rank number going up.
What good is your plat cammy when you face a gief or honda that legitimately knows and has practiced the matchup? How would a tier list then apply to YOU in particular?
@@TheBlarghisay I never intended to dispute his point. All I'm saying is that it's an oversimplification of reality. Saying tier lists don't matter for 95% of the playerbase may technically be true, but it doesn't really paint an accurate picture. Saying the tier list changes based on skill level is a little bit more enlightening and accurate to reality, I think. If low level players tend to struggle with Zangief, then that means Zangief is a high tier character at low level. Pretty simple concept, I think.
@@guitaroachHow it implies to me, well it depends on the format of the tier list and who is making the tier list. Most video tier lists I watch gives a reason why a character was place in a certain tier and explains their strengths and weakness, also how that character plays. I also watch a ton of tier lists from respected players and CC in the FGC (Diaphone, Punk, Brian_F, Max, fighting select, etc); from all these tier lists you usually can see a pattern of which characters are the strongest and with this information I usually can guess which characters most people will flock to and who I should spend more time Labbing against. So what I'm trying to say is a tier list can be very informative to me and help me improve my game knowledge.
Around at the @12:00 ish mark where you begin to perfectly summarize the difference b/w top tiers and ”low” tiers in SF6 and overall game quality. Luke, Ken, Juri, DJ, etc. (not in order) can consistently execute their game plan (sometimes on auto pilot) while others like Ryu, Gief etc. have to be so planful on spacing and quick in game decisions just to get simple stuff like proper advantage from whiff punishes (i.e, Ryus best whiff punish is his sweep (due to distance)..But he isn’t an oki character so….), BnB combs (Luke has 100 combo routes for all his supers, they all get oki, etc. Why?), and damage. Great breakdown vid Broski.
6:59 There is only one grappler brain, we're all just connected to it telepathically.
Edit: Did you know that 6:69 isn't a real thing? Apparently I didn''t. It's a very nice timestamp, though.
Crazy timestamp
@@dotmp3883 Oops. Thanks for the heads up. Fixed now.
Tier lists do effect gold players, but not in the same way. Gold Honda is probably the best gold character lol.
But also, normal tier lists dont only start at the *highest level*
You ended at 1700? Thats pretty high but far from the highest level . I think high diamond to master is about where conventional tier lists start to matter. And if you can't see how DJ in lowish master has manifested advantages over gief.... Idk what to say for you.
Took me a while to get Manon to diamond
With JP if I hadn't D/C'd in the placement matches I'd have done it from the get go.
So yeah, they matter. At every level.
You’re one of my favorite players/commentators to watch take on new characters. Love hearing your breakdowns and also seeing the satisfaction you find in new toolsets. Saying “jackhammer” along with gief is icing on the cake
Consistency of whiff punish combos from range, is a very strong point. I feel that stand MP Target Combo being able to pull opponents towards Z on the first hit would rectify those Drive Rush Cancels and also reduce the full Target Combo whiffing. Superb commentary as usual Broski!
6:58 I love that super animation, it feels like a jumpscare
8:57
I think there’s a lot more complexity to this issue than just saying that tiers do or don’t matter for most levels of play. It’s not that tier lists don’t matter at levels beside the high level, it’s that the tier lists are different at different levels of play.
Honda in this game is a tremendous example of my point. At the tournament level he isn’t strong at all. But at a low level he is the best character in the game.
As an addendum to this, you then immediately go on to mention inconsistencies that will absolutely affect almost every level of play. Sure, it maybe isn’t the same thing as the pro level tier list mattering, but weaker players are weaker players precisely because they lack the ability to work around some of these inconsistencies.
I just feel people at the top level just ignore low level people.
I’m of the camp that different levels and different tier list.
Obviously not optimized reactions, execution, anti airs and mental does affect this..
This is exactly how it is! Great comment.
This is something the tekken community know very well. Most the best tekken characters are BAD at average level of play. Steve is too hard. Gigas was terrible, but a new player could do a lot with him
at a tournament level he is also extremely strong assuming a laggy + no audio setup lmao
Tiers exist and do matter.
but I suppose for weaker players they dont matter unless a character is completely hopeless (like in Gundam Versus or in League of Legends when a character is intentionally gutted) or straight up inferior (see Human Smoke vs Skorpion in Ultimate Mortal Kombat 3)
That chuckle when you 720'd the Drive Rush xD
5:18 whats funny about the 720 buffer is that you can also use its input for level 1, so you can buffer the 720, walk forward, and if you see the pre-jump frames you can hit kicks and get level 1 instead
These characters (Gief, AKI, Jamie, Manon) are so darn fun, i hope they get better in the patch
That was really cool! Is the Nash week next?
You should do Gief Week annually like Shark Week.
Good video dude 👍 I like some of your thoughts on gief
Gief's Super 1, they should add that you can adjust the angle of the jump depending of the button press, straight up, in angle, and jump horizontally in front of him.
Gief is one of my favorite characters in the game. Which is funny because I hate playing him. He is incredibly satisfying but also incredibly frustrating. He gets absolutely rolled by rushdown but also absolutely rolled by zoning. This leads him to be in a wierd place where he's supposed to get in but can easily loose that to a lot of characters even on the defensive. He has a lot of good tools but a lot of them also do not work (lariat in combos and anti fireball, m.p TC flat out missing on hit, etc). I don't want him to be broken, I just wish they put a bit more care into him as a character. Because he is insanely fun to play when he actual works.
That 720 tip has probably just turned me into at least a Gief secondary
I've been waiting for this!
Great series of videos actually, wish you have fun to do this with all mid/low tiers xD
Tier lists absolutely matter, the thing with tier lists is they are meant for comparison with similar skill players. If you're a legend player on multiple characters of course tier lists won't matter when you fight golds-diamonds.
the idea is tier lists only matter when skill level is equal, not just at top level (you think that cuz you are at the top)
but tier lists also change from skill level to another. Cuz there is potential and ease of execution to count for
I agree his SPD oki is fine but what I don't like and its something I'm really sad you didn't talk about is how many of his moves just don't have a use. Suplex for example should be the command grab that gets decent oki, right now you get a dash up standing light kick but you still have to burn a drive rush to get anything after that. Which sounds better because with SPD you have to burn a bar to get in and a bar after drive rush but SPD doesn't side swap you and put you in the corner, it also doesn't have 10 FUCKING FRAMES of start up and its range isn't literally point blank. If the move is going to be that fucking slow and that close range (so much so that you often push people outside the range with even a fucking jab on block) then it should have some tangible use over SPD.
His other moves are like this 2, running bear grab isn't that great you can sometimes use it to catch people sleeping after a standing light kick but not often. At least let his EX bear grab have armor close range after like frame 3 - 5 so he can armor through some move, make it only upper body armor on strikes so lows and projectiles blow through it if you want it to have some downsides. Just anything to make that move have some utility.
The less said about Tundra Storm the fucking better....
But its also a lot of his normals as well....
Like you touched on how utterly useless his C.HP is but he has other normals like this. For example his command normal 3 HK the grounded drop kick, I think this move is suppose to be used to try and crush lows when they are in the corner but there are better options and it being so unsafe means its never going to be used. I have landed this maybe once in over a thousand games.
Then you have his stomps which is by far the coolest fucking command normal he has. I love this move so much, which makes it all the more shitty that its so fucking useless. The only thing you see this used for 999 out of a 1000 is to frame kill your 3 throw.
His flying headbutt is also kind of shit, in SFV this was an okay move because it did way more stun than any other air normal but with stun gone its not doing anything meaningful. It does have a neat effect where its special cancelable so you can OD air SPD after landing it. But because it has 8 frames of startup and air SPD only has 4 you are better off just doing air SPD because those 4 frames of start only really ever gets you hit when trying it.
I also think Charging your Jump HK should make it safe on block, give it massive push back or something. Its so easy to anti air if its not it should at least be safe, also make it wall bounce on normal hit as well rather than just counter hits.
So many of giefs stools just flat out dont work or do nothing and it sucks.
I kept expecting CHP to do something that I was just not understanding.
Nope. Whut.
FWIW I REALLY like watching your Gief. It’s so fun.
7:00 I see that Broski joined the Gief hivemind for a second there
You're not wrong about Gief vs Guile not being bad for Gief. It's pretty even because Gief really isn't any worse than most other characters at getting in on Guile in particular.
It's also my personal best matchup as Gief, for whatever reason.
Unrelated but your channel intro is perfect
Hardest matchup for Gief is Lily, she can keep distance without using projectiles. Also how does your Gief not look shiny and more matte, is there a visual settings for it?
What's the use for Russian Suplex (halfcircle kick near)? They walk back - it whiffs, almost like I would want Siberian Express for an armor hit sometimes.
It’s better for tick throws due to the shorter input and it leaves you closer for oki.
Mainly I use it for drive impact oki. When you drive impact for a punish counter to get the crumple you can sacrifice some damage for better oki. spd Dr oki isn't real from drive impact combos, the suplex oki is.
Everybody seems to think that saying a tier list doesn't affect them is some kind of personal attack, when I'd argue the existence of no definitive tier list shows that the highest level players are aiming it towards themselves; we have no single tier list because we are not (and cannot be) at the theoretical limit, therefore we make tierlists based on the [biased] opinions of the people who are as close to where we are currently. This is why it doesn't matter to anyone in e.g. gold - it technically isn't accurate for anyone at any rank, however it's the closest thing we can get to accurate, and those players are the closest things we have to perfect play. It also explains why tier lists are different between players, they are always slightly biased.
7:00
It's time to get serious in this relationship
Zangief and zangief
9:13 I disagree. Tier lists not only matter at the top lv. They matter when players are of, or close to, equal skill level.That's when character tools have more of an impact on the outcome. A high lv. player will trounce a new/low lv player, regardless of the matchup. However, if two players in Gold (for ex) are of equal skill, the player using Ken, or DeeJay, or whatever will have an easier time winning than the Gief or Lily player will.
I tried fighting it but im a geif main now.
I noticed he has some issues, but have you all considered, SPD?
loyal
as i gief main i agree with most of what u say. i dont think he needs as many crazy buffs as other giefs think.If I had to pick only a couple buffs I'd pick slightly faster lvl 2 and make jump splash have a little more horizontal range. Also I agree, the spd oki situation is awesome in sf6
Gief gain meter blocking fireballs, keeping an eye to avoid burnout.
What's the use of Gief's HCB+K (close) grab in this game? I don't use the char and never see it used in this game
it gives slightly better oki than spd, and it can move you out of the corner and side swaps.
You get pretty solid Oki with Drive Rush > 6MK. After the regular version, you're plus enough to enforce another mixup on block or combo into 3MP on hit.
OD version is weird and has slightly different timing, but it builds a ton of meter and is good for closing out rounds after a DI crumple since it, like OD SPD, only counts as 1 hit in a combo unlike the regular versions.
But it really sucks if you're putting yourself in the corner and the actual range/speed of the grab is abysmal (tiny range + 10f startup on top of needing a proximity trigger).
Buff one aspect of it (speed, range, or Oki/positioning), possibly two, and it gets a lot better. My preference is buffing the range and letting him side swap back over if he puts himself in the corner.
To build meter the best move is Running Bear Grab
I made it to platinum as gief. When I was gold the cracks started showing, and by platinum one everyone knows what giefs weaknesses are. Trying to get out a corner is a frustration, the anti air issue becomes unavoidable, being forced to spend meter constantly to get in etc.
Can anyone tell me the song from that first Guile fight?
RIP Gief
a lot of Gief's combo issues have to do with his piss poor DR not covering distance well at the start. I get where you're coming from with his oki off of SPD being structured, but what does that matter when "you have to be prepared for things to wrong all the time"?
The way his oki is structured in this game off SPD makes no sense due to his inconsistencies. It actually works AGAINST him due to all the things you talked about.
Being “Finicky” is definitely not something that Gief should be lol. Like really not in character for him. He is supposed to be a sledgehammer of a character. like he should have l at least one decent short combo into a knockdown that works in absolutely every situation where he can land the starter. You don’t play Gief to worry about the microspacing of your buttons and which of 5 different followups to try to go for from the same starter depending on where you hit it.
I liked playing Gief since first street fighter 2, I think I may attempt to try him in six as another character to master. I'm still waiting for them to put another solid straight up martial arts character into the game for me to try and master. ( Not makoto, although...why not)
Solid take bro.
if his couch heavy punch could hit cross ups to that would be neat
16:58 LITERALLY I THOUGHT YOU COULD DO THIS ALREADY I'M SO SHOCKED YOU CAN'T
I know this is weird to ask, but does anybody know the song that starts playing at like 9:30 or so onwards? Seriously, I've been trying to find this song for so long and I'm desperate to know.
SF4 - C.Viper theme
@@TheHankScorpio Thank you so much, I really appreciate this!
I am one of those players where Tier Lists don't matter, and I agree with a lot of your takes here. Namely, Meter gain ( I don't think his kit allows for it) and consistency. I think the biggest thing you missed, and I think it took me a lot of time to see this, is that there are a few ranges in neutral where he has too many redundant tools. For example, what is the point in neutral of MK? It has a little bit more range S-Mp and basically the same range as C-MK but is 1 frame slower. I don''t think that problem is exclusive to gief, but I think for an archetype (slow grappler) his pokes are crucial to his gameplan and should have better variety to his tools if not just better pokes.
I will say M kick kind of walls out spammy cammy's and juri's,. Forces them to jump at you more.
gief is forced to play sf2 still while everybody is in 6
Yeah he gets to play sf6 for about 4 seconds before he hits burnout lol
Same with manon
Try out Manon, lily and Honda
@@cosmic5665 I CANT, IM A LOYAL FAN!
@@mannythelazyguy6529nah I mean they worse than gief
cant wait for week of honda
1:30 agree, he's oddly not that tough of a matchup
Tier lists affect everyone cause people get carried by luke compared to zangief.
I think he just needs his lariat to hit cross-ups, and make tundra storm immediately stun an opponent because its the hardest read you can make in the game.
\o/ FOR MY LOYAL JACKS
When is Honda week?
Have fully charged HP break armor and have headbutt be canceled into DI. That’s all I would need. Also, cr. HP should juggle on counter hit.
Headbutt is DI Cancellable you just have to do it slightly early because sometimes it doesn't come out in time as a DI Reversal.
Standing Heavy Armor Break?
It already beats DI if timed correctly and if you react fast enough. It should be more like both versions of Lariat should Armor Break.
Especially when regular Lariat is a Multi hit move but loses to DI? Yet Marisa's Gladius breaks armor no matter the button used.
Just give him a real reversal. Dont worry he wont be broken
I understand *why* capcom is hesitant to give a grappler an invincible reversal.
When a grappler has an invincible reversal it makes running offense on them feel *terrible*. What's the standard play against invincible reversals? Bait and punish, right? If you guess wrong no harm no foul, you take no damage because the worst that can happen is you block or shimmy their throw. With a grappler if you opt to bait their invincible reversal and they wake up with command grab... well that sucks for you doesn't it. There is no oki setup that covers both a long range command grab and invincible reversal, meaning that you have to guess *on your offense*, which just sucks.
There's probably a way around this to make it more fair for the attacker, but that doesn't exist in SF6 yet.
it's ok guys he has tundra storm 🙂
Guys. Zangief is cool.
His meter build is lesser for the same reason Manon's is. You're doing less in neutral as a grappler than you would on other characters and a successful grapple gives you noticeably less meter than a normal combo. Also, it may not seem much but not only do fireballs improve your control over drive meter but it also gives you more super meter over the entire game.
11:44 as a Jamie main I feel so seen
I always say teirs are unimportant at my level, but it can be felt. As a Geif main, I know he's not great in comparison to my Ryu, despite the fact that I know less how to play Ryu than what I know about Geif. While it might not matter, it can be felt.
3:23 he frame trapped himself
You should do this with every character
Give him a teleport.
Lol teleport into lvl3
i like the beef of the geef
Are we getting week of "Someone Else"?
Can we get a game with boxing Capybaras? Tekken has or had a kangaroo and a dinosaur and still has at least one bear.
Zangief
I think they should give him back greenhand and make it rekka into an instant kill command grab
Down Fierce could be completely removed
ok, let's play zangief how I play it, that means removing unreliable stuff so I don't do any of the following.
Level 1
Level 2
regular borscht dynamite
target combo
down fierce
offensive Drive Impact
tundra storm
regular Lariat
OD Lariat
standing medium kick (that's asking for a drive impact)
crouching light kick (that's asking for a drive impact)
Russian Suplex anywhere near a corner.
So all I have is those ~3 combos that end on lariat and gimmicks, because I'm not good enough to fight Zangief's inconsistent stuff and fight Ken.
that's it, we can remove all of that from the character, I wouldn't even consider that a nerf.
10:54 facts exactly. I remember an argument at the start of the game i had where gief is world better in this game than sfv and i was the only one saying the former lol. But yeah it’s p good
I still think Green Hand would be too much since his whole game plan is getting closer and throwing you, but the fact that his Rush and all his lights are so stubby and he doesn't build Super AND his links are fiddly makes me feel like he wasn't in the beta test because he wasn't finished yet and this is as close as they got before 6 shipped.
been playing gief for a while now. can honestly say that lily is more of a problem for me than JP/Guile. and sim cause that teleport spam >.>
Lily and dhalsim and Ed are his worst matchups for sure. Then JP and guile.
1:30 everyone thinks Guile vs Gief to be a terrible lopsided MU until they play either character. Gief doesn’t care about fireballs, especially not in a game with parry. It’s slightly in Guile’s favor. I think Gief performs better in the MU than the other grapplers
Make it so his spin can hit people crossing him up, fix his level 1 so it performs more consistently for people in the air. That with his last buff I think would put him in a good spot for a grappler.
These, and StMP always connecting on counterhit and punish counter, are the only buffs I really want for Gief. I don’t mind him being weak in terms of power level, but I just want him to feel like he works properly. Those three aspects of him feel more like bugs and/or oversights than actual intended weaknesses.
a one button AA that covers all options is a bit too strong for a ground-heavy grappler though
@@gameclips5734 he’s has lariat hit behind in previous games and that’s been fine, so I think it would be ok here. It’s also slow as hell at frame 15, so I don’t think it would be a problem if it hit crossups.
That being said, if you don’t buy the “legacy” or “power” arguments, that’s fine, but if that’s the case then they should give him something to compensate for losing such a core part of his gameplay. Additionally, if it doesn’t hit crossups, they should have changed the animation so that it doesn’t look like it should hit crossups. Unfortunately, they did neither of these things.
@@Resener1 i definitely agree with making it look more consistent as it doesn't do what you expect it to. You're right about it being slow but idk, i guess the devs expect you to autocorrect or use perfect parry as well
@@gameclips5734 the fact that it’s so slow means that autocorrect doesn’t work, since by the time the opponent jumps over you and gief turns around lariat will hit them on the ground, meaning they just block it. You may be able to do EX lariat because it’s 12 frames, but now you more spending 2 bars for an anti air that may not even hit. The only way he can beat crossups is jump back jLP or jLK, which you never see anyone do because those are not practical to do as a reaction. It’s more or less perfect parry or bust.
As a concept, lariat is a fine anti air. Like you said, it’s a “one” button anti air, which, in a vacuum, is pretty good. The problem is that it fails on legacy, power, and aesthetic levels, which means that it feels really bad to use in practice. If they addressed any one of those, I would at least know that Capcom cares about the move, but the fact that they haven’t touched the move at all is really disappointing.
4:15 blud he said
5:05 nice
6:00 lv1 is not that bad on those situations
6:59 ayo???
Just because zangief "bad guy" doesn't make him bad guy
19:47 This is why it is a bad character, (I main it but the point still stands) You have to fight Zangief and the Opponent.
At least make OD lariat hit his back and make OD SPD invincible on wake-up so he doesn’t get throw looped like a moron as the iconic grappler.
I still struggle against him in master
no one, absolutely no one is a bad character when they can kill in 2 throws. end of discussion
I kinda disagree on the tier lists don't matter part. Like don't get me wrong but even playing a new character you're basically playing against people much worse than you. If two people of similar skills play against each other then character strenght does matter (that character strenght might be different that on the top 1% of the ladder).
Granted to don't really play much street fighter but i've just seen this opinion a lot in many games but also seen how switching to a better character makes everything often feel so much easier.
Respectfully but completely disagree that tiers only matter at the top 10% Totally agree however that there are no trash tiers in the game. Also, interesting to hear about Gief's meter build handicap - I thought meter build was more or less consistent acrosss the board.
It's not geifs strength that gets me... it's the fact he's hard to play.
I’m glad you get to experience the gief/guile mu..Theses morons out here will tell you that guile doesn’t loose to xyz .But don’t understand that geif can fight him good in this game