Curiosity question: If dual speakers combining to make a center channel creates comb filtering, then why doesn't running ordinary L/R speakers in mono sound mode create the same effect?
Another way is put on sides of screen. Your ears will put sound in the centre. Comb filtering is a real problem but can also occur in a normal stereo set up. Of course depends on what's recorded in each channel. You could also use one speaker projecting to centre of screen and you then hear the reflection.
I had two center speakers one above, one below. Youthman would know about the KC group. Anyway, extensive measurements by the KC group revealed comb filtering BUTit was not noticeable in listening.
This is an excellent example of you guys at your best ... a seemingly simple question that in fact has many dimensions, you walked through the scenarios, noted the drawbacks, possible advantages and gave the good advice. But you answered the question. 100%
After trying two centre speakers with 2 Channel amp. I sold my speakers. Superior voices. With music sometimes i Need my subs but even ordinary speakers Need often a bass boost. My advice Is to try ...though finding two identical centres to test Is not an Easy task. Someone told me it's AN error but IT IS NOT !!!! Back to 2.1 Better sound quality!
I'm planning to use the 7000es with dual centers. But it also supports front heights for this purpose. I'm still building my room. People say either way sounds good. I am just curious exactly what they're doing.... if there is some processing going on to ensure intelligibility of speech. Can't find any info on what they're actually doing or if it is vulnerable to the comb filtering problem.
Caller: I have the same amp and you're right, it can't do 9.x.6 all at once. You can wire for that, and when using Dolby you can choose between 7.x.6 or 9.x.4. With Auro, you can have what they call 13.1, which is the 7 base channels (not the front wides) and 6 upper channels: Front LCR heights, surround heights, and Top (voice of god). As Joe says, if it's possible to put your speakers there, try it. But also as Erin says, also watch a film and see if you notice the voices aren't coming from the characters. It can become more noticeable as your screen size increases, so the distance from centre of screen to centre speaker increases. Good luck 👊
I wish my receiver would quickly and easily let me decide which channels were going to play rather than doing it on its own. When I get my Auro center height channel working I'll let you know how it goes. I would imagine it'll shift the center image couple feet higher. It'll be fun to play with.
@@Triggaaar I have no idea. I'm sure once I see the price tag I'll probably pull back and be thankful for what I already have. LOL. I've just always enjoyed tinkering around with electrical and electronic stuff. Do you have any suggestions? I've got several old school amplifiers laying around. They're getting hard to find anymore though. Especially the old JBL UREI amps that they used to use in movie theaters. Then again, a lot of movie theaters have gone bankrupt to do the covid so there might be some audio gear flooding the market before too long.
@@powerguymark Suggestions: work out what you're wanting to improve in your room, then see what you need to do that. If you need to change amp, sure, go for it, but I'm not sure you do. A pre/power amp combo is mostly useful when your amp isn't powerful enough for your speakers (I have no idea how easy to drive your speakers are). A lack of power isn't something you've mentioned though. Re deciding which channels were going to play: Once setup, you just need to choose between Dolby, DTS and Auro for each film, depending both on preference, and what's on the disc. Some discs have well made Atmos tracks, so it makes sense to use Dolby. Others don't, so try each format to see what sounds good to you. Pop on a forum for more hints/tips (eg, AVSForum - US based - or AVForums - UK based)
main center below with a matching satellite on top, 👍 try it before you knock it, ask a non-audiophiles opinion, sound coming from the center of the screen is priceless to some people. I'm running a focal chorus 7.2.4 setup, 705 front's, sr700's for rears and backs, matching center and matching focal dome speakers for satelites and top center. I'm less than 6' from a 65" the upper satellite has the cover off, the lower main center has it on , all other covers are off. sound is perfect, being so close I tried top and bottom, it was just too wack, musically I like the spread in the room too, I don't like a pin point center channel sound with dts nueral X music listening
Okay this is interesting… very much looking forward to hearing back from Mark on this. Mark please keep us up to date!! Or let the fellas know!! Really wanna to here your conclusion my friend… BOOM!!
I felt the same exact way until one day out of boredom I converted my 7.1 to a 5.1.2 and heard height channels for the first time. It is a big improvement. If you can swing it give it a try you'll be glad you did it really makes your home theater more immersive.
@@BornIn82 I read your comment before watching, so I was ready for the hidden bragging, but nope, there's none there. He's got ancient speakers, a Denon amp (not exactly Trinnov territory) and a TV (not a Youthman 150" screen). He wanted some advice and got some good suggestions.
@@Triggaaar I hear you, but you must admit that a Denon x8500ha is not a "budget" amp for a typical H/T. The caller was also adept at concepts relating to surround sound formats such as 9.2.6 , and even having 20 year old speakers means that he is probably more than an average audiophile. All the same, that was good banter which i enjoyed and learnt from too.
@@BornIn82 yikes. If you knew what I've been through for the last 10 years on a personal level you wouldn't begrudge me splurging and buying my home theater gear. Trust me. You are correct. I've been in the audio game since I was a kid building Crystal radios and learning about basic circuits with a Radio Shack 300in1 electronic circuit kits. I'm also a retired electrical power engineer. So yeah I've been dabbling in this stuff for over 40 years. It's an exciting time to be re-engaged with it. There are so many options available that you don't have to spend a lot of money on. My speakers didn't cost much at all. They're pretty beat up scratched up but they work and sound just fine. Really wasn't trying to brag brother. Enjoy your day.
@@powerguymark Thank you for the reply, and I am humbled (no pun intended) that you shared your very respectable back story. Please acccept my apologies if my comment came off as insensitive, and enjoy this great hobby.
Auro's center height is not the same as dual center. It's a height channel and won't have the same info as the base layer center. Now, with Auro's upmixer, it may have the effect he wants of raising the phantom image because Auro likes to push a lot of sound to the heights. Try it. It might be better than nothing, but I wouldn't consider it a solution to his problem. There is also the issue of human biology, our two ears are on a horizontal plane and we just aren't great at perceiving a phantom image in a vertical plane (unless you like to watch movies with your head tilted to the side). This is the whole reason Auro uses heights instead of tops. I would suggest either tilt the base layer center up towards the listener or go without a center. A center-less system can work very well, but only for the MLP, the cheap seats will not get a great phantom center image.
Excellent question, Erin - "Is this an actual issue?" I was thinking about doing two centers with a TV, but in fact I do not have an issue to solve - the center is below the TV, but it's tweeter-aligned with the LR and it sounds amazing as is while watching a movie instead of "critically listening to it". For Atmos content in particular, with the low LCR and front highs near the ceiling, I get a very tall front soundstage which I like a lot and would not want to trade it for "voices coming from the center screen" which would require lifting the "bottom layer" a lot higher and reducing the angle between top and bottom layer.
Real life trial and error beats math and measurments, so I would really like to see more of these attempts with center channels as this will always be the most important speaker out of 16+.
I've been using the Center front height using a Def Tech CS9040 through my AV8805. It's on my default running IMAX ENHANCED content. I also use it upmixing Auro 3D and DTS Neural Upmixer
He is good to go. He can do it. The 8500 has 15 speaker posts, and 15.2 pre-outs (only 13.2 processing) He might have to ditch the Wides but he could set up a Center Height and VOG for both Auro and DTSX-Pro. They can then use upmixing to image his center information to the middle of the screen. Its called "Dialogue Lift" Not sure of DTSX-Pro has the dialogue lift option but its worth checking out. This is exactly the sort of thing that makes me want to get a Denon X8500HA
IT's a real prob for some proj users like me. As it's so large the centre is sitting on the floor nearly but if you have two or three rows of seats, only the front get the centre details? 🥲 Any suggestions?
Curiosity question: If dual speakers combining to make a center channel creates comb filtering, then why doesn't running ordinary L/R speakers in mono sound mode create the same effect?
It can, but it varies based on how close the speakers are to each other.
Another way is put on sides of screen.
Your ears will put sound in the centre.
Comb filtering is a real problem but can also occur in a normal stereo set up. Of course depends on what's recorded in each channel. You could also use one speaker projecting to centre of screen and you then hear the reflection.
I had two center speakers one above, one below. Youthman would know about the KC group. Anyway, extensive measurements by the KC group revealed comb filtering BUTit was not noticeable in listening.
This is an excellent example of you guys at your best ... a seemingly simple question that in fact has many dimensions, you walked through the scenarios, noted the drawbacks, possible advantages and gave the good advice. But you answered the question. 100%
What’s the answer? I skimmed the video but didn’t see it. Can we just simply connect two identical center speakers?
After trying two centre speakers with 2 Channel amp. I sold my speakers. Superior voices. With music sometimes i Need my subs but even ordinary speakers Need often a bass boost. My advice Is to try ...though finding two identical centres to test Is not an Easy task. Someone told me it's AN error but IT IS NOT !!!! Back to 2.1 Better sound quality!
Sony new receivers, at least 7000es has native support for dual center channels and something called center channel lift up.
I'm planning to use the 7000es with dual centers. But it also supports front heights for this purpose. I'm still building my room. People say either way sounds good.
I am just curious exactly what they're doing.... if there is some processing going on to ensure intelligibility of speech. Can't find any info on what they're actually doing or if it is vulnerable to the comb filtering problem.
Why doesn’t comb filtering occur with L&R
Caller:
I have the same amp and you're right, it can't do 9.x.6 all at once. You can wire for that, and when using Dolby you can choose between 7.x.6 or 9.x.4. With Auro, you can have what they call 13.1, which is the 7 base channels (not the front wides) and 6 upper channels: Front LCR heights, surround heights, and Top (voice of god).
As Joe says, if it's possible to put your speakers there, try it.
But also as Erin says, also watch a film and see if you notice the voices aren't coming from the characters. It can become more noticeable as your screen size increases, so the distance from centre of screen to centre speaker increases.
Good luck 👊
I wish my receiver would quickly and easily let me decide which channels were going to play rather than doing it on its own.
When I get my Auro center height channel working I'll let you know how it goes.
I would imagine it'll shift the center image couple feet higher.
It'll be fun to play with.
@@powerguymark What are you trying to do in your room? And what pre/pro will do it?
@@Triggaaar I have no idea. I'm sure once I see the price tag I'll probably pull back and be thankful for what I already have. LOL. I've just always enjoyed tinkering around with electrical and electronic stuff.
Do you have any suggestions?
I've got several old school amplifiers laying around. They're getting hard to find anymore though. Especially the old JBL UREI amps that they used to use in movie theaters. Then again, a lot of movie theaters have gone bankrupt to do the covid so there might be some audio gear flooding the market before too long.
@@powerguymark Suggestions: work out what you're wanting to improve in your room, then see what you need to do that. If you need to change amp, sure, go for it, but I'm not sure you do. A pre/power amp combo is mostly useful when your amp isn't powerful enough for your speakers (I have no idea how easy to drive your speakers are). A lack of power isn't something you've mentioned though.
Re deciding which channels were going to play: Once setup, you just need to choose between Dolby, DTS and Auro for each film, depending both on preference, and what's on the disc. Some discs have well made Atmos tracks, so it makes sense to use Dolby. Others don't, so try each format to see what sounds good to you.
Pop on a forum for more hints/tips (eg, AVSForum - US based - or AVForums - UK based)
I have a question: I have my front height Center channel mounted now but I'm not sure which channel I have to give up on my receiver to make it work.
main center below with a matching satellite on top, 👍
try it before you knock it, ask a non-audiophiles opinion, sound coming from the center of the screen is priceless to some people.
I'm running a focal chorus 7.2.4 setup, 705 front's, sr700's for rears and backs, matching center and matching focal dome speakers for satelites and top center. I'm less than 6' from a 65"
the upper satellite has the cover off, the lower main center has it on , all other covers are off. sound is perfect, being so close I tried top and bottom, it was just too wack, musically I like the spread in the room too, I don't like a pin point center channel sound with dts nueral X music listening
Okay this is interesting… very much looking forward to hearing back from Mark on this. Mark please keep us up to date!! Or let the fellas know!! Really wanna to here your conclusion my friend… BOOM!!
that Trinnov 🤣 buy a new car
Home theater has gotten crazy. It almost makes you miss 5.1
I felt the same exact way until one day out of boredom I converted my 7.1 to a 5.1.2 and heard height channels for the first time.
It is a big improvement.
If you can swing it give it a try you'll be glad you did it really makes your home theater more immersive.
@@powerguymark I did the same conversation and felt an improvement right away.
Works wonderfully with Auro 3D
And that caller is the very definition of a "humble brag", lol.
@@BornIn82 I read your comment before watching, so I was ready for the hidden bragging, but nope, there's none there. He's got ancient speakers, a Denon amp (not exactly Trinnov territory) and a TV (not a Youthman 150" screen). He wanted some advice and got some good suggestions.
@@Triggaaar I hear you, but you must admit that a Denon x8500ha is not a "budget" amp for a typical H/T. The caller was also adept at concepts relating to surround sound formats such as 9.2.6 , and even having 20 year old speakers means that he is probably more than an average audiophile. All the same, that was good banter which i enjoyed and learnt from too.
@@BornIn82 yikes. If you knew what I've been through for the last 10 years on a personal level you wouldn't begrudge me splurging and buying my home theater gear. Trust me. You are correct.
I've been in the audio game since I was a kid building Crystal radios and learning about basic circuits with a Radio Shack 300in1 electronic circuit kits.
I'm also a retired electrical power engineer. So yeah I've been dabbling in this stuff for over 40 years.
It's an exciting time to be re-engaged with it. There are so many options available that you don't have to spend a lot of money on.
My speakers didn't cost much at all. They're pretty beat up scratched up but they work and sound just fine.
Really wasn't trying to brag brother. Enjoy your day.
@@powerguymark Thank you for the reply, and I am humbled (no pun intended) that you shared your very respectable back story. Please acccept my apologies if my comment came off as insensitive, and enjoy this great hobby.
Did anybody clarify horizontal dual woofer center channels or two identical speakers in that position?
I have always wondered this. If it would image in the center.
Klipsch r34c and 504c double channeled sounds absolutely amazing. More immersive sound.
So, I have front height and center height with 12ft ceilings... The center stage sound expands to fit the Theater space I have...17ft wide....
Auro's center height is not the same as dual center. It's a height channel and won't have the same info as the base layer center. Now, with Auro's upmixer, it may have the effect he wants of raising the phantom image because Auro likes to push a lot of sound to the heights. Try it. It might be better than nothing, but I wouldn't consider it a solution to his problem. There is also the issue of human biology, our two ears are on a horizontal plane and we just aren't great at perceiving a phantom image in a vertical plane (unless you like to watch movies with your head tilted to the side). This is the whole reason Auro uses heights instead of tops. I would suggest either tilt the base layer center up towards the listener or go without a center. A center-less system can work very well, but only for the MLP, the cheap seats will not get a great phantom center image.
Excellent question, Erin - "Is this an actual issue?"
I was thinking about doing two centers with a TV, but in fact I do not have an issue to solve - the center is below the TV, but it's tweeter-aligned with the LR and it sounds amazing as is while watching a movie instead of "critically listening to it". For Atmos content in particular, with the low LCR and front highs near the ceiling, I get a very tall front soundstage which I like a lot and would not want to trade it for "voices coming from the center screen" which would require lifting the "bottom layer" a lot higher and reducing the angle between top and bottom layer.
Real life trial and error beats math and measurments, so I would really like to see more of these attempts with center channels as this will always be the most important speaker out of 16+.
Have a good Sunday fellas
I've been using the Center front height using a Def Tech CS9040 through my AV8805. It's on my default running IMAX ENHANCED content. I also use it upmixing Auro 3D and DTS Neural Upmixer
I’m wondering what content comes from the centre height? Is it only for effects or it produces a dialogue just like the regular centre speaker does?
@@keepitshema If the conten is native DTS-X, whatever the sound mixer decides. If you upmix, your front stage will be more balanced.
He is good to go. He can do it.
The 8500 has 15 speaker posts, and 15.2 pre-outs (only 13.2 processing)
He might have to ditch the Wides but he could set up a Center Height and VOG for both Auro and DTSX-Pro. They can then use upmixing to image his center information to the middle of the screen. Its called "Dialogue Lift"
Not sure of DTSX-Pro has the dialogue lift option but its worth checking out.
This is exactly the sort of thing that makes me want to get a Denon X8500HA
IT's a real prob for some proj users like me. As it's so large the centre is sitting on the floor nearly but if you have two or three rows of seats, only the front get the centre details? 🥲 Any suggestions?
Klipsch r34c and 504c double channeled sounds absolutely amazing..I have this setup. More immersive sound. Playing music or movies sound much better.