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Another great video, about a constantly topical subject! It can be a frustrating thing, to see people dismiss things because of their perception or lack of will to understand it. But, I also believe it is something that everyone goes through, myself included. I've had my elitist moments in the past, and coming out of that bubble/echo chamber is a liberating feeling. What saved me was enrolling into a music academy, where all kinds of styles and perspectives are prevalent. So, your point about education highligts the importance to equalize access to both good lower and higher education. If everyone gets a fair chance in education, then they'll be introduced to all kinds of art that deserves to be appriciated and perserved.
I think part of the problem is that music is often treated as extracurricular in schools - it's the first subject to get cut when funding becomes tight, so it quickly becomes limited to private schools. Yet, for me, music is as important to our culture today as 'core' subjects like languages and history. It's a shame, but fortunately music is becoming a much more accessible area of study than it was a couple of decades ago.
100%-I’m fortunate enough to have a very strong music program at my school, and for me, music has become something of a core subject. I am currently a part of 4 different ensembles + IB Music and all while some of this does take place outside of school hours, all but one of these are actual school courses that go on my transcript.
Is that really true? Is it really typically cut before art and drama? I think those guys have it much worse. As far as arts go, I think music is actually extremely well positioned.
@@alexandersanchez9138 Unfortunately yes. In Canada, where I'm from, music gets dismissed as an extracurricular, something that's done as a hobby rather than something that can be done as a career, and there's always this apathy about music from the people working at the school districts because they had this apathy as a kid and then it gets carried over when they become adults. As a result, it's difficult for a music teacher to actually get a decent amount of funding from the school district because even the people working at the school district doesn't care.
@@bluelover110 My point is only that this seems to be a feature of arts programs, in general. And, compared to visual arts and theater, I think music programs actually tend to fair a lot better. Are you saying that music is underfunded worse than other arts in Canada? I wouldn't know.
"The trouble with music appreciation in general is that people are taught to have too much respect for music; they should be taught to love it instead." - Igor Stravinsky (New York Times Magazine, 9/27/64.)
Fun fact... the burning of Castle Frankenstein by angry villagers with torches and pitchforks is what inspired Igor to later compose the now famous and beloved Firebird Suite. While working at Castle Frankenstein, Igor had been taking a correspondence course in music composition.
I’m reading this while wearing a sweater with Stravinsky written on it and man I wish I realized this earlier. I was one of those who grew up playing classical piano pieces but still sucked after 8 years of consistent practice. I practiced a lot, but never understood why I wasn’t good, then I recently realized I never loved the piano or classical music.
One time I really felt classical music only being played for the sake of elitism was during one holiday of mine. I stayed with family but a luxury hotel nearby was hosting a famous chellist of the country I went to holiday in. Eager for a nice activity I and my family booked tickets. But the concert was a total desaster. The microphone couldnt handle the chello´s and piano´s range and had a terrible pick up pattern. It was outside near the sea, leading to terrible accoustics. And nearly everyone there was from the luxury hotel because they got free tickets and wanted to feal fancy and classy. They took pictures of the venue and their tickets but then left halfway trough came back with a lot of noise, had children playing and running around infront of the stage. I later went up to the cellist to thank him for his great performance and give my "condolences" on the bad set up by the hotel which had heavily hindered his performance and to take a picture. Interestingly he was sooo thankful that someone was aware of what was going on and also sooo upset, that he then hung out at the bar with me and gave me some input on a piece I was working on(I play the piano).
There's a reason why wind instruments were used in outdoor concerts(serenade works) back in the day, such as Mozart's time. The winds could carry a tune outside.
It's difficult to assess how valuable having the right crowd in the place is. My friends where putting on small electric / acoustic concerts by the lake and the wind was always a big issues..
@@radiobiologist also their "vibrating" parts are generally internal and less prone to accidentally making noise as the wind blows over the strings. (Apologies for not know the catch all term for reeds, strings, and all other parts of instruments responsible for actually vibrating to make the sound) Basically a 5mph wind will make a guitar's strings vibrate slightly but won't affect a saxophone's reed or trumpet player's lips. But also loudness is a factor, although in modern times we have microphones and speakers to overcome this limitation. (Assuming the set up won't pick up the wind)
I mean, as much as I love punk, there is something to be said about at least learning about the classics. Shakespeare is my gig - so many people are so shocked when I point out with proof that Shakespeare played to the lower classes - that's why we still venrate him. He played to the masses and lived on. They always are shocked when I tell them about "the dirty bits"
I love that you included Milton Babbitt. I met him at a performance of one of his works about 20 years ago. He asked what I did for a living. I answered that I sell synthesizers (really just worked at a music store, but I’ve always been a synth geek/specialist) to which he responded, “Quite a noble profession”. Sincerity or sarcasm, it’s one of the highlights of my life to have met this delightful man.
I hope he was being sincere since a lot of modular synthesis revolves around generative music, which in some ways isn't so different than Babbitt's vision.
I think people largely misjudge Babbit because of that one particular article that he wrote in a specific moment in his life; after all he started to be a musician as a "prodigy child" jazz songwriter and saxophone player. Even later in life, after he became a composer of """serious music""", he retained that love for popular music; he has a piece called All Set for Jazz Ensemble, written just a year before that infamous article
Can I just point out that the no-clapping rule came about AFTER the middle class and more everyday folk started listening? When it was still the pet of the nobility, people did plenty of different things, including having dinner and conversation while the music played. When more average people got involved, they came for the music itself.
ah yes aint it weird how that sound inverse to our expectations. wed assume the rich to be stuffy- but they were casual- and wed assume the average to be half interested but theyre otaku.
why is the no clapping rule bad again? you care more about the idea of classism seeping into music rather than the actual benefit of not interrupting the performance.
@@PuddintameXYZ to be fair though there is a lot of context missing within your initial statement and i too am having hard time making sense out of it and the reasoning for the no-clapping rule
I noticed something really annoying that has sort of happened as a result too: people have stopped clapping between *pieces* at a lot of concerts I've been to/performed in because they don't want to accidentally clap between movements because that would be disgusting and awful
Mozart was a skunk goblin, who wrote some truly trashy pieces, the most memorable to me being a Cantata to Coffee and a gutter-scraping Lick Me in the Arse. Don't get me wrong, I love the bastard, but he's not the clean pristine thing we're brought up to believe.
@@matankesselman456 Nope, it's basically if flute and recorder had a child. All I know about it is that it was produced in central Italy in the '70s (maybe) by a company that's no longer in operation. They claim they made the instrument to be like a flute but easy for beginners. It's probably their own design.
Fellow Italian here (writing in English to favour everybody comprehension of the matter): the thing is that the reality of the "banda di paese" (municipal band, I guess?) is a European concept only, that is most commonly present in countries such as Germany, Austria, parts of Switzerland and widely spread in Italy. The other countries cannot rely on this reality to spread musical education and to allow children to start studying music for cheap. The sad thing is that we have this amazing tool that is completely ignored by any sort of authority (be it local or national), while in countries such as Japan (from what I've understood over the years) musical education is presented to every student in the same way that they get exposed to maths, literature or any other discipline, which is what should happen if we really want to put musical studies (be it of classical, jazz or pop music) on the same level as all of the other disciplines, giving them the dignity that they deserve
@@diegorovaglia6945 The "banda di paese" would likely not work as well in the megacities of the US; but certainly public schools could provide similar education in music, including having instruments available for students. Several of the primary and secondary schools I attended (my family moved around a bit) had instruments available for students to learn music on, and music education was required throughout primary school (it was optional in secondary school). In primary school, the instruments the schools provided were pretty basic things like the flutophone (a simpler version of the recorder) or a very basic melodica (specifically, a Hoener melodica soprano). In secondary school, there were more traditional orchestral/marching band instruments available for rental by students who couldn't afford their own. But at least they were useful for teaching basic music theory. Mind you, that was roughly four decades ago now, and schools have de-emphasized music education since then, mainly due to lack of funding and governmental emphasis on standardized testing (music isn't part of the standardized tests, so no resources are allocated to teaching it). That is something I'd like to see revived and expanded.
"I think most of these groups would be vastly improved by a sudden death" was so blunt and vicious of a line that I felt like I was socked in the face by it.
I so loved that line! I say something that approximates it whenever I encounter horrible people at work, school or wherever, really. (Actually, I just daydream about saying it to their faces. I don't want to be a mean person...well, unless I really lose my patience, then I curse that person and their family members to die . . . each in creative ways, like in the Final Destination movies 😇) #MaleWednesday 👁️_👁️
One thing I just realised (although no doubt others have noticed that before) that also reeks of elitism to me is the idea that you're only allowed to criticise something if you could do it better or are proficient in the creation of it. Like, the idea that you're not allowed to call a video or movie badly made or a song boring or a meal bad tasting unless you're an expert in the field. And I'll openly admit that having experience in the respective field will likely help give more detailed criticism or suggestion ways to improve it, but the way it's treated as an absolute sometimes is just elitist, imo. I don't need to be a 5 star chef to tell if a dish makes me want to vomit, or a professional director to notice if a movie is badly lit. Especially because I wouldn't be aware of that being used nearly as often the other way around. At least I never came across someone saying they like something and getting shouty responses about how they aren't allowed to praise it unless they also work in the field.
Yeah. Why wouldn't viewers or customers be able or know or have preference when they're the one who are suppose to enjoy and paid for things? But there's the other side where people bully people's work or have too high standards. I think that's what cause some people to respond back with "then you do better" too. It isn't always from elitism or malicious intent. But sometimes to try to counter bullying. There's a difference between bullying and criticizing. I think partly why it's good to have experience is so people can understand how hard it is to make things, like music. Or perform it. Then be more compassionate. Some people even slander and vilify artists, saying they made bad art with the intent to hurt people. Not all. Sometimes it's mistakes or subjective taste. Fans and people can get really passionate or uptight about art.
It's one thing to say "I don't like it" or "its bad." Everybody has got an opinion. It takes more effort and knowledge to be able to critique something and give reasons why you don't like something. Constructive criticism is a rare thing to receive in my experience as there aren't enough people with the vocabulary or background to give it properly. I always ask people after a concert "how was it" and they respond with a polite "it was good/alright" or more times than not "I couldn't hear X" or "the mix was off" but couldn't give a precise enough example. The hardest thing to get out of anybody is good advice. Which is why I try my best to give good feedback when ever I can.
The flaw in your reasoning is that criticism and praise are not two sides of the same coin. The vast, vast, *vast* majority of so-called criticism comes from a place of ignorance. It's the inherent nature of criticism: if you criticse something, it means you probably don't like it, which means you are probably either missing it's appeal, and therefore criticise things that either don't matter, or are actually important features of the artform (see: 'rap is bad because its harmonically homogenous' or 'Nirvana is bad because Kurt Cobain can't sing'), or worse, don't make the effort to perform any form of accurate, good-faith analysis. On the other hand, praise is much easier: if you like something, you probably understand what makes it appealing, and will make the effort to understand and dissect the material accurately. The two are not opposites, one is much, much more difficult than the other. I cannot stress enough just how much criticism (especially public criticism, e.g. print/online) is completely meaningless. It's okay to not like something, but that doesn't warrant any form of valid criticism.
I think there are two sides of the coin, depending on what and how it is being criticized. It is true that everyone is able to criticize, but it is also true that ignorance often makes that critique sometimes unrealistic and or problematic. Specially nowadays that everyone has the same weight on critique, or even more than specialists. So for example, I work in the game industry, have been doing so for six years. It is very common for me to see gamers throw several critiques at games, that just make me laugh. Because their ignorance on how games are made is shown by what they say. The one that I find that misses the mark the most, and it is very very common, is that gamers are prone to call developer lazy. After six years in working in videogames, I have never met anyone lazy, and if there is anyone not pulling their weight, they get laid off. Working on games is hard work, and even on simple games, it is hard to get days off because it is way too much work. I have friends who are engineers, doctors, economists, lawyers, etc. I am always working more hours, doing more over time, and I have always something to do, it doesn't matter for what company or project I am working on. So I can see firsthand, how much work it is required to make games... and then i go to see what people think about games I have worked on, and there is always people calling us lazy.... Too many people think making games is easy, as if the only reason a feature is not that good or something is missing, it was just because we were lazy. But if they knew just a bit about game development, they would realize it is the opposite. That often why things get cut, it is because we are unable to do that work because there is already too much on our hands. So in short, yeah, you do not have to know how to do things to be able to critique it... but knowing how something is done and having experience on it, does indeed add value to the critique. I have observed that the people who know nothing about what they critique, often make very very extreme and black and white critiques. And the people who do have experience on the field, often make more tamed and nuanced critiques. Because the people that know, often know how difficult and how hard it is to make what they are critiquing, so even if flawed they respect it. While the ones that don't, often have no respect at all for the effort.
One very important thing in visual arts is that they're always based on human perception. Artists, specifically those who draw and paint (I'll restrict my statement to that since it's what i'm most familiar with), study reality, and how we percieve it. And they study it to replicate and interpret real life phenomena. This can be applied to anything that revolves around illustrating reality: Futurism, Realism, japanism, expressionism, cartoons, mangas, ecc. All of these rely on us as humans to interpret the drawing, and associate its content with what we already know. You wouldn't know why there's a red dot in the sky in claude monet's Sunrise without at the very least having a notion of what is in the sky. For the same reason, it'd appear weird to you if the sun looked blue (in the context of the image at least. you can represent red with blue if the colors are just right.) Every time you look at a picture, what your brain does is grab from your real life experiences to associate a meaning to the image. That's why you might not be able to tell exactly WHY a face looks weird, a hand looks wanky, or a cat doesn't look like a cat in medieval paintings (they basically applied human anatomy to the cat's face for the eyes, mouth and nose for what i saw), but you WILL know it looks wanky. Non-artists might not know the technicisms, and can only give very general feedback. But their life experience is just as important to art as the life experience of the artist itself. Just because a piece of art was made with intent, that doesn't shield that intent from being called out. People without experience shouldn't demand their voice have the same weight as an expert in the field, but the experts SHOULD take a look at the statement, even just to educate people. (see how anti-vaxxers are not doctors, but refure to listen to LITERAL MEDICS. That's what SHOULDN'T happen. That's when the public thinks they know the artist's work better than the artist itself and inject dubious claims into otherwise healthy skepticism.)
i grew up playing jazz guitar, i loved blues and jazz and played gigs and shows. playing those shows i’d wear sneakers and jeans. i got into a school for classical guitar because i thought “guitar is guitar” my first performance i got excoriated for wearing jeans and a dress shirt for a small solo performance. i realized that music school dislikes people who don’t grow up in the tradition. after getting shamed for clapping inbetween movements i just didn’t clap because i was scared of getting it wrong. i brought jazz pieces to perform and got told that they weren’t “musically acceptable”
I got a scholarship to play sax and guitar in jazz band in college and had a similar experience. Apparently I was just supposed to know that the unspoken dress code was all black with a tie lol. Also speaking of snobbery in music academia I'll never forget sitting in a guitar class. The professor played something for us. It sounded like Jimi Hendrix inspired to me. I mentioned it to the professor and he said something like, "Oh no. Hendrix is sloppy". And everyone else in the class was agreeing with him. I was shook.
They don't dislike you for not 'growing up in the tradition'. You did a couple things you shouldn't do and you were corrected for it. This doesn't take a lifetime to learn how to do, it literally just takes one time and then you can figure it out next time. And... you didn't clap after that because you were worried you'd get it wrong? Seems a bit melodramatic, you could just wait a few seconds till others clap and then join in. And yeh, it's a school for classical guitar, what made you think you could play jazz pieces? They weren't saying jazz is bad, they were saying 'jazz is not what you're here to study'. To be honest, seems like you've got some issues following any sort of social norms, this really shouldn't be that hard.
i like how this video tries to point out both the, for lack of a better word, 'aristocratic elitism' of associating classical music with inherited wealth and status and all the material conditions that make that be a thing, but also the, also for lack of a better word, 'commercial elitism' of the popular equals good mentality and the 'niche elitism' of the unpopular and insular equals good mentality.
and then while he's doing that, pitches his own kind of "elitism" to us, which we happily soak up, because hey, these are fair points and yeah, screw these scenes - and then he trashes that perspective as its own type of elitism, with a sarcastic relish to finish off with, leaving the viewer uncomfortable with reflecting on 'their own' thoughts they weren't thinking 5 minutes ag- an hour, it's been an hour. Brilliant video essaying; exquisite.
There's something really funny about how commercial elitism feeds into niche elitism. Like so many people feel the need to snobbishly shit on rap. Even people who directly benefit from it like Miley Cyrus and Post Malone lol. Also I fell like I've had the same conversation multiple times about how rock or blues is "dead", but when people say this I think they're just dismissing music for being new or popular. I remember recommending the band Beware of Darkness to someone who was "shocked" that bands were still making that kind of music.
@@t_ylr i mean, not to put too fine a point on it, but the dismissal of hip hop and the whole 'i listen to all sorts of music except hip hop' thing is pretty much always either consciously or subconsciously racist, right? like obviously people have their taste and that's fine, but the general attitude of crowbaring hip hop apart from the rest of the music landscape (which incidentally also shows up in the lack of academic attention given to it in comparison with for example rock music) deffo has a racial element to it.
I cannot understand why Mozart is seen as some icon of elitism and an elitist supporter of the ruling class. The "Marriage of Figaro" was based on a Beaumarchais play written in 1784.The subject of the play, servants outwitting their masters and working against them was hated by the aristocratic ruling class who banned it in many cities across Europe, including Vienna. How the author of a deeply subversive popular opera comes to be seen as an elitist establishment figure is a mystery. Similarly with Beethoven who originally dedicated his Third Symphony the Eroica to Napoleon when he presented himself as revolutionary against the monarchy and aristocracy. When he crowned himself emperor Beethoven furiously scratched out the dedication. He lamented that now Napoleon would become just another tyrant, and trample on the rights of men.No-one sees Leonardo da Vinci or Raphael as elitist nor do they equate the views of these artists with those of their patrons nor are they seen as supporters of the elitist status quo.This is a phenomenon peculiar to music. Both Beethoven and Mozart were pioneering artists seeking to free themselves from aristocratic and royal patronage as far as they could in the social and economic conditions of the time.
I assume it is from the associated aesthetic of the area he was forced to wear to work at courts making him look like what nowadays is associated with that elite. Obviously that stems from a misunderstanding of the symbolism and a lack or context.
It's really funny, considering that Mozart's music was often seen as crude and coarse; especially when he started writing lyrics in his native German, instead of the ostensibly more "sophisticated" Italian.
I don't think there's anything mysterious or confusing about it. What people think is elitist is actually classical music itself because of how it is presented to them through popular culture. To most laypeople, these famous composers are just brand names within the classical music world, so they're guilty by association, but it's not like people are actually singling out Mozart or Beethoven, I doubt they even know their life stories at all. Mozart is not seen as an icon of elitism. He's an icon of classical music. It's classical music that is seen as an icon of elitism.
When I was a guitar teacher in my early 20s I would always tell my student to never just stick to one genre of music but instead expand their horizon and listen to music from different time periods, different languages and different countries. Some of the parents hated me because they wanted their kids to only classically trained, go to Juilliard and also because rock and roll is and I shit you not “poor people music”.
Una pena. Ni siquiera los grandes compositores europeos fueron como se imaginan ellos. Muchos de ellos tomaron influencias del folclor de su país, diría que algunos más que lo que hicieron de otros compositores y de la tradición clásica. Y luego pensamos que se puede entender o componer una mazurka al estilo de Chopin solo conociéndola de la mano de compositores a partitura.
Rock music and every genre does different things for you. Rock is kind of energetic and wild energy. Classical can have energy to in a different way. There's music that can make you sad and happy. There's music that's a lot of fun. Music impacts your emotions.
The part where you described classical music and its use to describe rich people genuinely made me tear up. I enjoy classical music a lot, it's one of my life's passions and seeing how badly it's showcased in media is genuinely depressing to me. Classical music isn't rich, old or white or prestigious, it's colourful, beautiful and meant for everyone to enjoy.
Same, I've been lucky enough that since I was four I've been playing piano and classical music. It's genuinely so beautiful I wish everyone could enjoy it and stop 'gatekeeping' it. Music is all interconnected anyway.
While it *should* be for everyone to enjoy, to say it's not at all white and rich is just simply false. The theory behind said music was largely created by the white and rich and even now (as described in the video) being able to study it is a privilege not everyone can afford. Classical is great and obviously very important, but its negative image amongst the general population didn't just appear out of thin air.
A small point, classical music wasn't created BY rich white people, it was created FOR rich white people. European aristocracy maintained composers and performance ensembles for their entertainment and as status symbols, but the composers and musicians themselves were almost exclusively drawn from the middle class. But what does it matter anyway, that the music was created for rich white people? Is that a bad thing? The patronage of European aristocracy from the middle ages onward enabled the creation of great works in every art form, but the original intended audience of that art is no barrier to accessibility.
Comments like this remind me of people who obsess over the whole "music theory is racist" thing. Has it been used for elitism, sometimes to target an out group? Yes, but anyone still doing that is misusing, arguably even misunderstanding, music theory. And nothing is stopping you from learning music theory from other cultures. It's kind of ridiculous to me Westerners living in Western countries scratch their heads and go "why have I only been exposed to Western music?" and then conclude that it must be due to racism. They're like a fish not knowing what water is. And because I know people will be thinking it: I don't mind Adam Neely's video, although, I do think a ton of people are going to walk away with the only impression being made on them being "wow, music theory is like so racist." When I'd argue that wasn't really the point. It was more about how racists tried to use music theory to back up their racism. I think it's unfair to say music theory itself is somehow racist. Just because some racist tries to use milk to explain his superiority doesn't mean milk itself is racist.
@@-yeme-I would argue the distinction between being created for old rich white people and created by them is very minimal. The end result is still something is inherently limited and exclusive of foreign ideas. The same could be said for shows made for children being inherently childlike. Although none of them are being made by actual children and sure some may tackle more adult themes and be serious at moments but at its core it will prioritize what kids like and thus the end result will be childlike in nature. Go too far in the wrong direction and it’s simply not a kids show anymore. The same can be said for much of the history of classical music up to the 20th century. I think arguing whether music theory is racist is somewhat stupid, because it is not a living being and therefore can’t be racist. What people mean by that is that the ideas that influenced the music and especially the ideas that were excluded and shunned were undoubtedly born out of the likes and desires of an aristocratic and Eurocentric society. I.e old rich white people. So ultimately is classical music/music theory racist? Probably not, at least not intentionally. But undoubtedly racism has shaped what we now know as classical music and what was deemed as “correct” in music theory circles for a very long time.
I worked for a week in the marketing department at Toronto Symphony Orchestra, we had to cold call people who had previously bought tickets and try to encourage them to become Patrons. THIS is one of the biggest problems, because patrons have a say about the programs (depending on their donation) and they only ever programmed "The Greats" Mozart, Beethoven, Stravinsky, Tchaikovsky etc etc... They operate nothing short of a cartel to not have new composers featured. Occasionally one would get in but wouldn't it be a better musical world if young new contemporary composers got the lion's share of the programme.
That's the complex difficulty of the plight of the artist - we survive by the interest of others' tastes. And that's one thing I think Babbitt touched on rightly - that the more we expand and push our particular art form, the less general appeal/popularity it will have. A lot of people genuinely like the artistic forms and expressions they are already comfortable with. And it's a really hard balance to both respect that genuine preference with wanting to bring exposure to the less comfortable aesthetics that we are passionate about. I know a lot of symphony orchestras are responding by incorporating more popular music: orchestral soundtracks - and I think there's legitimacy to that practice. There is a lot of artistry happening in the world of media composition. But I think there may be a growing market of engaging with smaller musical communities that are more crowd-funded/Patreon-based communities, though it will likely take some time to make it economically viable, as the smaller interest groups of niche artistic category and genre are able to be sustained through these more direct-to-artist funding models and rely less on the big money of labels and traditional-style patrons. Time will tell how sustainable this newer model is, but I am honestly optimistic, though it may be at such an economic scale that the grand tradition of the 19th Century massive symphonic orchestra is out of reach for most new contemporary composers. Of course, there are a lot of pitfalls of this Patreon/gig-style economy, but I do see a potential space for a growing movement of composers who are sustained through Patreon models and potentially could crowdfund performances of their work. Time will tell how much this can work, but it does open up a potential venue that is less restricted by the tyranny of popularity and mainstream.
@@bricelory9534 yeah I liked the live soundtracks with movie thing, Back to The Future was great, and ET.. but in the end it's still playing music of the already-rich-and-famous. It's mainly down to the fact that orchestras are very expensive and patronage pays most of it. Tantacrul hit the nail on the head with the Education chapter. More music education, more musicians, cheaper musicians, more adventurous programmes. It's going to take time, but that's one thing I have.
By the way I love this take on "video essays"; not even attempting to deliver any concrete answers but rather just go on an in-depth thought provoking exploration of a subject. Great work!
@@Tantacrul Yes, I appreciated the fact that you were exploring actualities and being informative rather than ramming home a "solution". On the other hand, there IS a solution to this mess ... and its name is FRANK ZAPPA!!
4:59 "And in the end, what I hope to achieve is a better kind of understanding." **sniffs brandy** "...for a better kind of _person."_ **pours a glass** "Cheers!" **drinks straight from the bottle instead** screen overlay: "Elitism," but in Papyrus font, colored green with a red drop shadow. Truly a satirical masterpiece.
As a metal head ( and classical music fan ) having a lot of eitists in my genre groups I wanna say this. Just cause a certain group of people like a genre of music shouldn’t stop you or make you feel uncomfortable listening too it especially now days. You don’t need to be a king to enjoy orchestras I’m certainly not! You should listen to music cause you like it not cause others allow you too. To stop elitism ( particularly classical ) is too ignore the elitists and build up a new appreciation for the music among peers around us
David bruce's story on this subject, about a conductor who refused to talk to the sound engineer directly, was shocking. I am glad that you are also discussing this topic
Lol I had a similar situation where some snob singer refused to let me mic him up because he wasn't singing loud enough and the venue wasn't acoustically right for opera singing. He kept turning his nose up and refusing to talk to the sound crew, and of course we received a complaint email tomorrow morning about how he was barely audible
I know you’re typically not thrilled about leaving long periods between uploads, but if this is the result and it remains viable for you, I’m guessing I’m not alone in saying “cool, I’ll see you in a few months or a year or whatever.” To cover such a sprawling topic and connect so many examples without sacrificing coherence is quite the effort. Bravo!
One of the best video essays I've ever watched. I've been on both sides of musical elitism : born in the working class, I went to a little countryside conservatory for 10 years before I moved to a big city and entered the conservatory there. I still don't know how I got in, the expected level was so much higher than what I was able to give. For 7 more years, I was blasted with elitism : I didn't have the codes, wasn't taught the "right way", didn't like the "right" composers, and this came from the teachers as well as from the students, most of whom were from wealthier environments. But there I discovered opera, went almost twice a month for 5 years straight, I learnt classical composition, my classical guitar skills went through the roof and so I began to behave as an elitist as well, rejecting music that wasn't written the way I'd been taught it should be. Even now I'm past these ideas, as I teach music, I find that elitism is everywhere in music, from teachers to students, from working class to bourgeoisie, from small music schools to prestigious conservatories : jazz musicians seeing themselves as the epitomy of music, smarter than the classical twats and groovier than the rock dumbass, the classical snobs see all other form of music as lacking thought and refinement, more popular genres seeing everything else as mental masturbation... But there are plenty of people out there who are ready to share there music with people from other worlds, and we should all be like them.
Good comment. I've recently been enjoying some classical and jazz music on RUclips but noticed the music snobbery in the comments is pretty bad. People writing horribly critical and disparaging comments under the videos of incredibly hard working talented musicians who are creating wonderful music. I've been shocked at how damning people are, as if they themselves could do any better. Hopefully the musicians ignore such comments and keep playing. I personally love music of lots of different genres from jazz to classical, Bollywood, house, Irish music, folk music and gospel.
Really well said. I had a classmate in highschool tell me it’s too late to learn piano, because they started much earlier than me and had more experience, and played the piano faster. I think another time was that, in a hotel we visited, they didn’t let people play a few calming songs on the piano unless they were true professionals, which kinda sucked. The latter may not be the best example of musical elitism, but it sure annoyed me than anything. I really, really love music. I don’t think it’s wise for me to pursue it as a career, but I do agree that coming together and sharing things we like, rather than showing bias and anger at things we aren’t as accustomed to, is a much better alternative than elitism ❤️
to me music is like any other form of self expression and art. sure you could do it beautifully and "properly", how an academy would want you to, but you could also use it for expression of emotion or therapy or just fun.
In many parts of the UK and Ireland, there is a strong counter example - the traditional folk music. In both countries, this was composed, performed and danced to by all classes - something which continues to this day. The top performers are admired but not put on a pedestal. As a very modest exponent, I have played and sung with many of the best-known names in sessions and charity gigs - something that would never have happened when I was a classical performer. And yet the music continues to evolve in exciting ways, including all kinds of fruitful cross-genre experiments and collaborations. It's a genre where musicality is valued more than elite virtuoso skills, so almost anyone can participate if they are prepared to put in a little work. As someone who straddles both worlds, traditional music is far less elitist, with more scope for creativity as a performer. I'm not alone in thinking this - there are lessons to be learned.
I'd like to learn more about the classical-folk music division. I agree with what you say about folk music. Interestingly, I would say British and Irish folk music are a significant antecedent of most modern anglophone popular music (specifically country, bluegrass, rock and everything stemming from them), mixed to a greater or lesser degree with classical and West African music.
I was raised on fiddle music and know a bit of the culture as a result. While it is true that it is much less pretentious, it can also be an opposite kind of insular - you won't find someone at a Weiser jam one day and a concert hall the next. Conscious identification as not stuffy can lead to avoiding everything that seems stuffy. It's even in the name: are you a violinist or a fiddler?
@@jackruwe7142 Here in Scotland I don't recognise this kind of insularity at all. The traditional and classical genres have always been intertwined. For example many of our greatest fiddlers historically were equally at home performing classical music. I personally know two respected fiddlers who have regular seats in our National Orchestra as well. Nicola Bernedetti is studying fiddling with Aly Bain. And it goes the other way too - I know a leading fiddler who moved to Glasgow to improve her technique with the tutors at the Royal College. Society balls are usually country dances rather than classical affairs. A high percentage of the folkies I know around Britain are very eclectic in their tastes and follow and/or play rock, jazz and classical as well. A couple of years back I was in a high-level session at a festival, with some of the best known English trad players sitting in. Someone led off with a Hot Jazz standard - and 2/3 of the room pitched in with a solo - including the banjo player! So no - in Britain trad music is not particularly insular.
I might have blinked and missed it, but was 'hipsterism' covered as well. I would argue it is elitism under a different name; listening to a band until they get notoriety and then turning on them and anyone new to the music because they're no longer your little secret. I'd argue that spans classes and can be just as toxic with modern music.
I read an interesting paper/article on classism in electronic music genera identification pertaining to ones ability to do so and the class signifiers involved within. If you’re intrigued I think I found it free via google scholar. I might have kept a pdf. Pm or reply and I will see if I have it if you can’t find it. It was a couple years ago. ;)
That's gatekeepers and something that isn't inherently toxic. Music is often something personal, when what you enjoy listening to suddenly because "mainstream" it devalues it in a way. It becomes less special as it is no longer something that is unique to you as an individual. It isn't elitism, selfish maybe.
reminds me of that episode of Spongebob where Squidward, a fastfood cashier getting paid minimum wage, dresses up in a tailcoat and tophat then goes to an expensive restaurant for his "only night to be fancy."
Me too! Then I started relating the term to the mass marketing of subcultures and genres of music and got weird in my grey squishy skull fillings! Ya know?
This is what we need as musicians and society: this kind of discourse is what gives us tools to deconstruct what we are taught and what we do, and to challenge misconceptions and simple and reassuring cliches. I am a pianist with a classical training with a fairly decent career (just won the Arthur Rubinstein competition) and I can see the industry from inside, so I can asure you that many of the problems come from within, and THOSE are the people who are the hardest to convince: the ones whose identities (and business model) are based on elitism. It's not that they "don't know" that they are being elitist. It's that they WANT to keep that class difference. So if you challenge that and try to change the concert model and the industry, surely they will still be able to enjoy "the greats" (nobody is taking that away from them), but they won't be able to reafirm their superiority... And the worst is that, as a professional artist, you feel a complice when "playing the game"... It's a strange, contradicting world we live in... Again, congratulations for the incredible video 😍
The entire point of the video is to make you feel sorry for the things you've accomplished. It's 100% bullshit. There's nothing wrong with excellence being the top concern of the classical world. There's a history to preserve there. Jazz has an extremely competitive culture. I wonder if the jazz musicians will be asked to apologize?
@@tombailey1059 At which point does the video "make you feel sorry for the things you've accomplished"? the entire point of it was more akin to takle the problem of elitism and a false forcedly upheld image in music
what also surprises me is how people say they don't like classical music (or maybe just as occasional background sound during study) and at the same time seem to love film scores and game scores that involve symphonic orchestration. i'd say you're halfway there then, to loving classical music.
Classical music, to me, feels robotic and void of emotion as an orchestra drowns out any individual. Film scores while also orchestral feel emotional as they attach themselves to a story and characters.
@TwoSet Pearls In this specific comment we are talking about orchestras. When one plays in an orchestra, one plays what and how one is told to. It is no longer a form of expression, the orchestras goal is to become a robot to play as they rehearsed together to play something to be as accurate as possible like a robot. Void of all emotion because an individuals emotion cannot be felt in an listening to an orchestra. Comparing to an orchestral film scores is illogical as film scores are attached to stories and characters who we care about independently from the music, the music should enhance these feelings but people can enjoy the orchestral film score music because of what it is attached to.
@@ethan6627 Interesting how you experience that, I feel it's much different. First of all, orchestral pieces that weren't written to directly accompany a story often have a more abstract idea behind it and in my experience there's often a dramatic element in it. At least I see tension, emotion, movement, dialogue, jokes. It's more abstract but it's certainly there, for me at least. Maybe because of my background as a dancer. In minimal music it's the most abstract but even that has a dramatic arch. The second thing I disagree with is that an orchestra has no emotion because each musician is a different person. For me the magic of playing together is that you seek out a common expression/interpretation of the piece while each player is allowed their private emotions about what they play. It's very far from emotionless/robotic for me. Third thing; even IF the orchestra were reduced to nothing more than a machine with many arms, then there is still the conductor "playing" this orchestra. They do a lot more than keep the tempo. They certainly have an interpretation and use their emotions to give the piece a dramatic layer. I'm sorry you can't experience the beauty of symphonies and similar because of the reasons you list. I don't know what you have actually heard - maybe you just don't know what's out there and you heard one bad rendition of a mediocre piece and gave up. You're allowed to feel "meh" about orchestral stuff of course. But I have to disagree about all of it lacking emotion or story.
@chilanya I feel like I should clarify I do think their are emotions to be felt from classical orchestral pieces, but rather, I don't personally experience any. About your second point, when playing in an orchestral setting, the "common expression" is planned, hence why I call it robotic. Touching on your third, I think conductors are part of why I view classical music as elitist. It becomes about one man inserting his will and emotions onto the orchestra. He is the authority figure in that sense. Also, at least in the US (not certain elsewhere, but pretty sure this is commonplace), playing in a classical setting has a chair system. This makes a hierarchy baked into the orchestral itself, which naturally breeds elitism.
I grew up in a small, rural town that just so happened to have a classical guitar teacher around. So I was classically trained, and loved classical music, but also grew up loving rock, pop, and all the rest of it because that's what people in my small, poor town listened to. I always saw them as equal. Different types of music pursuing different goals. And there was good and bad music in all of them. When I moved to the city to go to music school, I met all these city kids that exclusively played/listened to classical or jazz, and their elitism was astounding. Really snobby, really arrogant people. Definitely a classist aspect which I found really gross. I always get my back out when I see people shit on rock and pop especially. It often comes across as a "those yucky poor people" argument.
Yea and those same elitist snobs usually couldn't tell you a single thing about the origins of those genres they turn their noses up to and how important it all is and how through history they are all interconnected. Except country... just kidding.
I think it often comes from teenage "I'm so unique everyone else is so basic" shit too. I was definitely like that. Would be really funny if you could see all of someone's RUclips comments like you can on reddit.
It can also work the other way around. I grew up in a household that was filled with almost every genre of music because to my father music was just music. At school I was made fun of for liking classical and jazz so I stopped listening to them until I left school.
For me, one of the most liberating things i've done Is to stop thinking about music in terms of genres, i have no problems jumping from artista to artist depending just on the mood. Donna Summer, Can, Everything but the girl. I love them in their own way, but sadly everyone need to put themselves in a box, You like metal? How daré you to move your feel to the rhythms of Earth wind and fire? ,Did Elthon John make you think of that special person? Don't you even consider to feel depressed and gloomy with Cocteau twins! Gimme a break!
@@lamecasuelas2 The word "genre" itself drips with pretentiousness. It seemed to slip into peoples pop music discussion in the 90's. It's right up there with "curating" playlists in terms of trying to make things important that really aren't. I think it's used by people who take their own musical tastes a little too seriously.
I think you'll appreciate this little anecdote, Tantacrul: an earlier time in my musical life was briefly spent in an experimental thrash punk band in Cambridge Massachusetts, maybe two-and-a-half generations removed from the Sex Pistols. One of our originals was a cacophony of headbanging drums, distorted atonal guitar and bass riffs, where the lead singer just screamed "Milton Babbitt sucks" over and over again for about two minutes.
i honestly think the biggest influence that could, and for me does, drag classical music from its elitist associations is video games. i mean, just listening to the hollow knight ost can give you an entirely different outlook on all sorts of classical styles of music.
YES!!! YESS!!!!!!! Soundtracks are, without a doubt, the closest thing you’ll have to classical music aside from actual classical music we'll have in a few centuries! I am so glad that other people see that too
I also encountered this at conservatory only slightly more modern twist on it. I was in the first class of electronic music artists at that conservatory and I experienced first hand how teachers and musicians looked down on us. One time passionately explained to a teacher how I thought electronic music was a modern form of composing. He looked at me with a frown and said “leave music up to the musicians”, as if we were nothing more than glorified engineers. Another teacher went on an entire rant about how electronic music is not “real” music because we didn’t play instruments and “just pressed play”. So damn demotivating as a young impressionable aspiring artist.
Urg. I've heard this a lot too and given quite the lecture back at my lecturers :) Problem is they have never heard the really interesting stuff and have just based their opinion on television or the top 10 on the radio.
Ooph that's rough to have to deal with. And of course, based on pure ignorance of both the creation of electronic music and the variety of composition that fall under that massive umbrella. How recent was your experience? I ask because my hope is that in the last couple decades that is falling by the wayside more and more. But I am not holding my breath, unfortunately.
I think you hit something important with your discussion of Imposters. That really is what a lot of Gatekeeping is. That there is a culture, aim and goal behind a community, weather it's a hobby, artform and something else, and when people choose to join tat community with either the intentional, or unintentional goal of changing that community, it is, completely understandably, scary. I think a lot of cries about gatekeeping are more about that then people would like to admit, and less about arbitrarily hating new members of the community.
I actually think that it makes sense. You cannot really make touching music with one note, can you? So if you extrapolate that in the other direction, the more notes you have to choose from, the more potential there is for beautiful music. (And the "bad" music as well)
For me what cracked me up was this quote at 3:08 by Beethoven. It’s like something a goofy supervillain would say 😂 and I’m sure Beethoven isn’t that evil, just goofy. The quote is funny for me. Or maybe, he said it out of anger? It’s hard to tell through text. What an interesting quote ❤🎉 not that I’m making fun of him, just the out of context quote.
I know it's a minor point in your video, but the dubstep thing is genuinely sad though, not because the music changed, but because the time period where dubstep was like that original form was incredibly short, maybe 2 or 3 years, and no new name or subgenre was created. I was there when it happened, and it was quite incredible how this totally unique genre did a total 180 leaving no trace of its former self within such a short amount of time. That didn't happen with jungle and drum and bass, and it didn't happen with Jazz either. It died far far faster than any other musical subculture I've ever encountered.
More like 4-5 years before the buzz saw wobble bass stuff became the common theme and when I stopped buying dubstep records. I believe everyone was calling the US stuff 'brostep' on the Dubstep forum.
I know some people really liked dubstep, but most people didn't. It was harsh to the ears. It was as pleasant as scraping a chalkboard to a beat while a dial up modem had a seizure. Most people didn't like it, including many musicians, so it died.
Such a well thought out argument. I used to have the classical snobbish attitude my music teachers passed onto me like a bad stink. I'm glad when people put out into the world calls for empathy like this.
I feel you... my piano teacher always made a clear distinction between pieces and compositions that were "gut-bürgerlich" and "schlecht-bürgerlich" (German words that loosely translate to "good-bourgeois" and "bad-bourgeois"). The "good" always referred to the more traditional classic compositions while "bad" described more modern and perhaps mainstream pieces (in particular Ludovico Einaudi, Yiruma etc.). Took me a long time to get out of this mindset...
When I was at music college I was always amazed that the classical music students looked down their noses at those of us who were more into commercial music. Was always fun to hand them a chord sheet for a 12 bar blues in B flat and watch them completely go to pieces.... 🤣
The astonishing breadth of your examination here. I particularly love your singling out of Andre Rieu. Pretension gathers around anything that has the ability to be sublime - food or music. It's good to just to concentrate on the music without the ads, vids or social purpose or noise or snobbery around it - eat, listen, appreciate, pray ... or something like that.
I'm so appreciative that you of all people decided to take on this topic. No other creator on RUclips would talk about this topic by going back to Ancient China of all places, and I really appreciate your willingness to analyze (and sometimes condemn where you feel necessary) the attitudes while trying to understand the people. You add so much value with your essays. Thank you so much.
Thank you so much for making this! As a classically trained opera singer, this is something that I've thought about a lot. We of the "Classical" tradition try to build a wall around our music, to keep out the unwashed "Pop" masses; we prefer to think of Mozart as existing within a different reality than The Sex Pistols. Occasionally we'll lower ourselves and mingle among the proletariat, like when classical singers put "Yesterday" in our recitals: we act like we're doing Paul McCartney a favor by singing it in an operatic style, even though it clashes horribly with the style it was ACTUALLY written in. But really, the idea of a Pop/Classical dichotomy is no more factual than the Baroque/Classical/Romantic eras; these are fictional concepts that we invent to help make reality more digestible.
I wholeheartedly applaud your choice to use using green papyrus with a mauve drop shadow when talking about elitism. This joke has many levels, and I am here for each and every one.
As someone who listens to both classical and heavy metal, I've always wanted to see a sort of thunderdome of elitism between the hardcore listeners of both.
@@platoscatboy9772 Call me crazy but, appreciating these two genres myself, it led me to wonder about the frontier between "musical genre" and sound esthetics, for lack of better words. By "sound esthetics", I'm mostly thinking about instrumentation. I mean, listening to Schubert's Erlkönig, to me, and especially for the first time, almost felt like listening to metal. And while I'm not going to pretend heavy metal existed in the nineteenth century, there is also the question of videogame music sometimes refered to as a musical genre, especially going back to when it was played by relatively limited soundchips. Yet it was not hard to find rock and heavy metal in disguise among other genres, played by those soundchips, So, even today, I'm still not sure if I should consider chiptune as a genre.
@@thepulseman7154 Chiptune is about specifically and purposely using the sounds from old video game systems, while I think video game music has often been classical and rock pieces that happened to be limited to using those sounds. It’s more of a matter of “because we can” vs “because we can’t” that makes those separate.
@@darkstarr984 Yes. Though in both case you can either be really close to another genre or do something that's not so easy to classify, so I do think chiptune at least can be considered a valid genre.
Or hip hop and electronica. it's amazing how elitist some get about the "other" when they're basically as close to outright musical brethren as exists in the world. How many other genres share such tight and lasting kinship from a stylistic and production standpoint, only for their fans to so harshly shun each other...?
The explanation of how classical music is presented as boring was so good! There is classical music I like but hate to hear it incidentally in ads/TV/film, and I now realise that it's probably because they only ever play the recognisable theme and not the actually fun but less catchy experimental parts. It's like someone only telling the set up to a joke because they think the audience can't handle the punchline.
I love classical music but i think people Should never be blocked in one style, Im Classic fan but i still some time try ear another still and i respect best of all different style❤
Musical taste is intimately linked to self-image. People that imagine themselves as trendy, energetic, and adventurous will gravitate towards very different music than people that want to be seen as cultured, stalwart, and refined. Rejection of music is, more often than not, a rejection of the people that like the music instead of the music itself.
True, but the elitist issue is when that self image link pushes too far and without other accompaniments. An elitists has built their identity around something so much that they have a perceived interest to protect. Meaning their ego is so fragile that a new style/direction of something they previously associated is a threat to who they are. So they build walls around the “real” genre in an effort to protect their identity, the art/music.
@TheRationalPI It is possible you are correct, but what about people who don't have any musical taste, who don't care about music? While I don't reject any music I do not care for any music either, for me music is just noise, not bad not good, just noise, for the most part background noise, that I filter out.
I really don't think what you have stated is anywhere near true. People that "listen" to music superficially might link it to self image, but anyone who listens to music for the music itself, will slowly but steadily build a music library that is like a neural network of music derived from music they liked first (for example, teens that listened to Nirvana growing up might start to like Sonic Youth and eventually start listening to Velvet Underground and from there jump to Bob Dylan and end up listening to Leonard Cohen) notwithstanding whatever they might think of themselves or any kind of self image they have. As in the example, Nirvana listeners are pretty much different from Leonard Cohen listeners regarding self/public image. What you call "musical taste", in your idea, is rather just a "musical pose".
@@HimmelGanger I mean that would mean you are not a music “elitist”, or rather you don’t fall victim to the trappings of music elitism. But this dynamic isn’t exclusive to music. Anything someone strongly identifies with, typically passions and hobbies, is where you will run into this dynamic.
After you asked me to thumbs up at the end, I spam clicked the thumbs up button a few dozen times to simulate applause. In the middle of your movement, no less. God I'm such a rebel
I dressed up in my sundays best to watch this video. Tantacrul is a channel for the elite after all, plebs not welcome. Dressing properly is the least a viewer can do
Dude, the material trappings of clothes inhibit your spirit from connecting fully with the fundamental vibrations of the universe and it blocks Tantacrul's resonance in your amygdala. Feed your head.
You know, after watching this, I learned: 1. Why I feel so detached from classical music. 2. Why I dislike songs that are popular today. 3. Why I should be shamed for playing Einaudi as a senior performance for my practical Music 1 exam.
This reminds me of when my music teacher called pop "simple music for simple people" and complained about how nobody listens to classical music anymore.
A wish hard to make true even with an army of genies. I would be all for it... if I could do it myself. I had a classical music education in a musical school for 5 years. I will listen to most things from classical music to metal and hip hop. But I can't listen to jazz.
Wow. I'm from Poland, and it's astonishing how different things are here. I'm from a rather poor family, but I went to a public music school, and my mother and sister are professional musicians. I remember it was difficult to buy instruments on our own, but the school made sure we could at least rent some while we were saving up. The education was completely free. And there were tons and tons of poor kids like us everywhere over the school, it always felt completely normal. (Maybe that's partially caused by the fact that their parents were often also musicians and the job just doesn't pay well lol). Later my sister earned two degrees at our local music university (available publicly in a 300k town) and she never had to pay anything for that either. It's just so bizarre for me to imagine how getting musical education would feel like in the UK. I've been working for a British company for a few years now, and it's still surprising to me when I learn about some new kind of classism completely ruining yet another aspect of British society. : /
I went to a UK private school in Years 9 -13. There was no music classes at all. We had an extra-curricular optional after-school activity of studying Music Theory, but unless you were already educated in Music you would be told to GTFO.
Same in Austria. Even if you don't want to go to a musical school, you can still learn an instrument in state sponsored music extracurricular schools for like 100€ per year.
It's similar in the US, however the focus is less on classical music. The tradition of band being in every high school in America was established by John Philip Sousa, who had a background in marching. As a result, string instruments are uncommon in high school. In fact, at least in the part of the country where I'm from, high school jazz bands are far more common than full orchestras with string instruments. Although marching is the origin of American high school bands, most marching bands will play arrangements of pop songs for football half time shows rather than traditional marches in concert. During the winter and spring (when the football season is over), bands will play arrangements of classical tunes for bands without a string section and/or tunes written specifically for American high school bands in concert, and will play the same marching arrangements from the fall during events like assemblies and basketball games.
The way you casually mention laying siege to André Rieu’s castle in between education reform, drinking spirits and cancelling HBO subscriptions is absolutely fantastic. The rest of the video was too, highly informative and well researched. Thank you :)
Rieu is the only thing I disagree with in this video. Sure, he lays it on thick, but he basically respects the music, and he is squarely in the tradition of Vienna salon music making. He also gets tons of bonus points from me for involving local musicians from wherever he is touring. Find that video of him getting a 4 year old kid to play some violin concerto with that orchestra.
I find that something very similar happens in painting. I did some social service (500 hrs, mandatory in my country) at my local museum, and it was a really revealing insight into how the world of art operates against how I had seen it operate in my digital arts environment. For starters, the museum itself was a great metaphor: On the upper floor, you had all the antique pieces, all of it religious. They took all the precautions you'd figure antique paintings get (special refrigerated rooms, guards 24/7, no flash photos allowed), but aside from that, every tour would treat these as the pinnacle of artistic achievement: It's what was shown first, what was explained in most detail, and what most time was spent on. The ground floor was devoted to a contemporary art collection owned by a big conglomerate, and was treated with much less decor. The tour guides would spend, at most, 10 minutes here, quickly go over what their scripts said about the pieces, and swiftly move on. People were barely given any time to look at these pieces. Not that it matters, because people didn't wanna look at them, but not one of the guides ever try to even help people understand what they were looking at. Imagine that: An art museum with total disinterest in getting people into new art. However, the lower floor was not free of guilt themselves. On one occasion, I ended up giving one of the curators and one of the organizers a ride back from an event to the museum. It came up that I had been doing a series of illustrations, and they enthusiastically asked to see what I had. However, the mood changed drastically when they realized these were all digital. I distinctly remember the organizer saying "I just don't understand digital media, it's so hard to use and understand" in the snootiest tone I've ever heard a human achieve without a monocle on their face. The pair started talking to each other, and effectively ignoring me. I later told one of my colleagues about it, and he told me this was very common. This organizer, as well as most curators there, considered digital art to be a bastard form of art, and in fact once kicked up a giant fuss over an exhibition that came once that was completely digital. Can't imagine what these people would think of 3d printed sculptures. It doesn't matter to these people how a piece you made looks (perish the thought that you'd judge a painting by how it looks!), but _how_ you made it. This is a very strange thing for them to do, when you then consider the way selling art operates. In most art galleries, it is an unspoken rule that any painting you sell must be sold for double the amount you sold your last one (or at least, this is what I was told). Otherwise, it's a failure. So, I once took a look at what was being sold at the museum, and saw a massive portrait of a man, done in ink. Amazing detail, exquisite use of light, and it was being sold for about 3000 usd. Right next to it, a much smaller, more abstract piece, with a lot of texture and a lot of earth tones everywhere. I'm sure it had an interesting read, but it felt, in comparison to the one next to it, like less care was put into it. I could be entirely wrong, but it had that impression. And that one was being sold for 7000 usd. Entirely based on the fact that the artist had sold another one before for half that.
Definitely elitism in art which is such a paradox as art should be for everyone and one form or artist should not be held up as the pinnacle of art or superior to another etc. Of course you're going to have really good artists and not so good artists but at the end of the day it should be up to the viewer, not the institutions, corporations and high society-similar to what happened when impressionism made waves and was once thought of as bad. There are levels of skill but also levels of something harder to capture within art (see aleksandra waliszewska for instance). If one looks purely at skill then I feel like the fall into the trap of 'oil and detail is the pinnacle' Each form of media has it's own challenges and your right about 3d printing. I think people see digital art as easy when really it's main strength is that of iteration, having more then one copy and undo. I wonder if it's because you can copy, duplicate and make a piece of art widespread for a lot of people that some in the art world see it as worthless. As we know quite a lot of art is bought up so rich folk can commit a form of tax evasion. So they might ask is an artwork worth less when there is more then one version of it? Having one tangible copy raises it's value more. Art is ever evolving and I love it so but gosh I feel so detached from that world as an artist.
The SNOBBERY dismissing digital art is insane. "Oh you push a button and use one of those expensive programmed brushes and the brush does all the work for you" I want to know how these people think physical brushes and techniques work. Sheer ignorance.
Its not that digital art cant be inspiring. Its that sadly many digital artists are simply uninspired. Same as modern music. The industry is just so oversaturated and its too easy to get into. There are still many great artists out there but today it is harder than ever to even find out about them. Its also too easy to reproduce digital art. A real painting can not be reproduced ever, even if you created an identical in visuals copy. Digital art is infinitely reproducable so it is in and of itself not very unique. Artists have tried getting around this with nfts but its too much of a gimmic. I honestly dont think digital art will ever be respected like physical art. Even though I myself enjoy digital art and even like making my own now and then. I personally think its just a tough medium and since its already kinda soulless you have to work even harder to make something inspiring.
The Impostor Phenomenon section really resonated with me, since I am both a classical pianist and a contemporary composer. I even see it outside of music, it happens in fanbases of games, shows, and even the internet. Almost every time something becomes mainstream it's purpose and form becomes completely unrecognizable from its roots. Take Undertale back during its release and compare it to the height of its popularity, or Breaking Bad and it's current fanbase.
I likely actively listen to music the least compared to most people I know, yet this video somehow hit so different. Thank you, for one of the best video essays I have ever seen.
I went to university for music. Trumpet performance. It was rampant at my school. I showed up in 97 in a Slayer shirt. Saw my share but also took part to an extent. But years later, I had a sort of epiphany. Just play. I used to get bent out of shape about pop like Nsync and so on. Then I realized, I'm not the target for that stuff. Has nothing to do with me. People listen for all sorts of reasons. Some people want to deeply experience music. Some just want to dance. Each is as valid as the rest. Just because I listen to music a certain way, doesn't mean others have to. Once I understood this, I just played, with far less debris in the way.
I disagree, but I also agree. Sometimes you just aren't the target audience and sometimes I'll judge your music. It is more than okay to enjoy it and I wouldn't want to take away from that, but just like his Bob Dylan example, I'm going to point out that Taylor Swift is not the pinnacle of the 2010s and 2020s
there is no "pinnacle" of music for any generation, for some people Taylor Swift was their perfect artist, for others it could have been some guy they saw playing the guitar in the subway because being art it is almost completely subjective@@10thletter40
It's worth mentioning most traditional Chinese music didn't survive the cultural revolution. Most "Traditional Chinese" most people hear is usually Guoyue orchestra, which applies western music theory to Chinese instruments. Other genres like Nanguan and various local opera forms that used to be the pop music of the era have only recently really started to bloom again. Ironically, the cultural revolution served to create a new elitism in Chinese music
@Tianrang Bu What you've both said is very interesting! If you don't mind, could you give me a super simplified and fast overview of the different genres and tell me the names of some of the practicing musicians/musical pieces? I'd love to buy a physical/digital record and listen, seeing I'll probably never see it live ahaha
say what you will but I highly doubt it's literally _just_ the cultural revolution that bricked a lot of traditional stuff; the period leading up where everyone was investing ridiculous amounts of time and effort into fast-industrializing [including extremely unfortunate famines] and the general period of decline before that probably didn't help, whereas plenty of superstitions and old habits have survived right through in rural areas [not cities tho]
What I've learned is that elitism is much more of a thing on the Internet, if you go out and meet other real people everyone is like "yeah I fucking suck at it, still fun though" it's so true for art and programming too. It's actually quite an eye opener realising "wow, even if I'm good at this thing, it doesn't mean jack shit if it takes me 3 years to complete a project perfectly when most people would do it in 2 and it works exactly the same with less polish." same with getting a driver's license too lmao, sorry my old driving instructor but I turned out fine.
There is definitely elitism in person. An example is the attitude of classical musicians to videogame music. Some of the best classical pieces written in the past 20 years have been from videogames, but most producers refuse to allow the music to be played alongside more classic pieces. Even when they do play it they get separated into classical events and videogame events. I even once saw a band master at the end of a videogame music show announce to the crowd "now you have heard us play this you should come hear us play some of the good stuff". That belittling isn't required and is commonplace.
@@kredonystus7768I attended a symphonic musical concert where all sorts of themes from all kinds of different video games were played. The conductor at the end then said to the younger people in the audience something like, "I hope we could show you that symphonic concerts can be entertaining too." Bless his heart.
@@kredonystus7768 Reading about this experience of yours a few hours after listening to one of the Dragon Quest symphonic suites definitely feels pretty sad.
That kenny g bit really resonated with me. The sudden boom in shanty popularity on tik tok was entirely spearheaded by one guy, who wasn't doing a bad job, but his way of doing it convinced a whole load of people that that was how that music sounded. It would have threatened it in the same way that kenny g threatened jazz. However that's not what happened because sea shanties and their popularity were, for most people, a trend. For this I am glad, however some damage was still done.
I also used to listen to Sea Shanties before it was popular :) Though I would be amiss if I did not point out that there area around Bergen, Norway, did modern kinds of versions on old sea shanties. The main man there actually has a doctorate in Sea Shanties...
I can imagine nowadays the words "cultural appropriation" would have been thrown around regarding Kenny G. Here's a white musician taking a traditionally African American music genre and creating a new style that many derided as bland and uninspiring. The arguments pretty much write themselves. Not that I personally have any issue with that, but I can imagine lots of people would.
Arguably, and admirably, Nathan Evans didn't become the 'face' of sea shanties, which could have happened. It was funny though to read some of the comments left by Tiktok kids saying, 'This song is so catchy! How is it so catchy?' and I even Read one saying, 'Why would sailors make such catchy tunes?' 😄
@@deadlyrobot5179 >If it wasn't for people like Limp bizkit and Skrillex Metal and EDM would be a couple of dead genres Tell me you don't know jack shit about metal or EDM without saying it.
another example of this, also involving tiktok, is phonk ruclips.net/video/UAV7hnCB_ZE/видео.html here's a video that i watched about it a few days ago, reminds me a lot of the progression of dubstep
Basically, you've perfectly articulated why hate having to admit when I genuinely _do_ prefer an artist's early stuff. I don't want it to mean "this thing sucks now, and so do the people who like it." [Band I Like] has branched out, taken a chance, incorporated new production, expanded their art, evolved, etc. The new sound is not objectively bad, nor are people who like it stupid for doing so. It just ain't my vibe.
I feel the same way. But let's think this through. This video is great but is it really that elitism as a word associated with something wrong is the actual act of putting things on a scale of "which is better than the other" and saying it out loud? Is it really that any expressed preference in anything is elitism?? If it is then I'm very elitist. I mean maybe you mean that it would be bad because elitism ultimately results in conflict. In that case, I guess we can never get rid of conflict
@@danskeli4016 personal taste and opinion are normal. Meaning it’s not elitist to subjectively dislike something, nor is it elitist to discuss those dislikes. The elitism comes into play when you can state your subjective opinion as objective fact, typically by pushing one thing down to make your preference rise in top. (By “you” I meant the metaphorical you, my bad) In the end, elitism comes down to identity. An elitist has attached their identity to their preference, so when a different/new direction is taken they feel threatened. Their ego is so fragile that they build walls around their preference in an effort to protect their identity.
There is something about those first 3 albums. I'm not sure if it's incompetence, or youthful energy. I find the bands that get passed that either tour constantly and write while they're on the road.. or they really mature as composers.
"misdirected sadness at the loss of one's community or identity" or atleast percieving of change or new fandom as it, is more or less the FOUNDATION of gate keeping
In my fourth year of music theory in college there was 3 or so pages towards the end that described American classical music (jazz) as hard to listen to, and it implored the reader to not feel bad if they don't understand it and that playing it was reserved to a select few. This was after the chapters on serialism and 12-tone composition. (Which had no such warning, of course.) I called it out in class, and it felt pretty good.
@@DeftRiddle I know a lot of people don't like jazz, but I would guess more people like some form of jazz than serialism. I know "some form of jazz" is vague, but it's changed over 100 years and evolved over time. Also, I think it's pretty funny that you said you'd prefer Kenny G over any type of jazz when Kenny G is smooth jazz.
Really got me thinking about how much of my dislike of classical music is due to me just not enjoying it versus me not liking the elitism I've been told it represents. This was a well spent hour. :)
The way I got into classical music was the same way it seems people get into alcohol: it's a taste you have to continuously expose yourself to in order to find what you like, and even then, it still might not be your thing (though I hope you find at least a couple pieces you like, just because I know it means a lot to me now and I want to share that joy with you). I hated most classical music until my parents nudged me into playing the french horn, and then I HAD to listen to it all the time-and over time, I found the composers that spoke to me and the musical ideas that I liked. I guess, if you want to genuinely take a dive and find stuff you like, I'd advise you to listen to a bunch of composers all over the spectrum; there are multiple "eras" of classical music that all sound completely different. For example, I don't really care for Baroque music (so Bach, some early Mozart; the only exception for me personally is Vivaldi), but I love the Romantic/Impressionist era (think Debussy, Tchaikovsky, Saint-Saëns, Mahler). I don't like more modern classical music (especially 20th century, 12 tone/atonal, "musique concret" stuff), but Schoenberg's "Song of the Wood Dove" fucks severely. If this was completely unwarranted, I apologize.
@@salmonandsoup Definitely agree. How much of musical taste works is through repetition. Pop songs are instantly liked because they're often derived from the same handful of chord progressions with simple, repetitious, familiar melodies. This is also why they have a short shelf life. There are many classical pieces I didn't much enjoy the first sitting through but love now, especially when I pick up on themes, variations, modulations etc. It's brilliant and brilliantly complex and intended for live performance. I don't mean that you need to have a particular IQ to "understand" it, moreso that it simply takes more time to become familiar. It's similar with food -- you tend to have to try more complex and strange dishes on a few occasions to really determine if you like them or not. PS: Schoenberg was a genius. The guy had already mastered tonal work before playing with atonal music, something so very many snobby musical academics in the atonal field can't lay claim to.
@@RohannvanRensburg Oh no I understand that Schoenberg fucks severely, I just don't like atonal music, so "Song of the Wood Dove" is the piece I like most by him. My brain hates extended periods of like. Wretched Dissonance, which is all that atonal music sounds like to my brain. It's just as unsettling as the Uncanny Valley to my ears (and I say that bc I'm autistic and am sensitive to certain sounds, not cuz atonal music sucks).
@@salmonandsoup I hate atonal music too, other than when it's used for horror purposes or centered around tonal music (think the Bioshock soundtrack). What I mean is that Schoenberg's tonal music kicked ass and he was a master. Guerre Lieder and Verklarte Nacht are amazing. Many atonal composers don't have actual chops.
@@RohannvanRensburg Chord progression condemnation is one of the dumbest avenues of condemning music. Beethoven's Septet was "pop" back in the day, so much so that Beethoven wished it was never written. Eine Kleine Natchmusik didn't have bold chord progressions, but it never gets old. The melodies flow despite conforming to conventional chord progressions of their day.
Something to consider: FL studio trial version is free, there are hundreds of music theory tutorials on RUclips, and millions of songs for free on Spotify. So there’s not much opportunity to gatekeep listening to or making music.
What I think attracts a lot of people to André Rieu and his tours is the simple fact that the concert is made for the audience and their enjoynment. The audience is encouraged to sing, clap and even dance during the performance and this interactive feature is always present. Thus people who sort of like classical music (but do not like sitting and staring at the performers for hours) can get a really enjoyable experience out of it - if they were to get up and dance on a more "classical" classical music concert, it would be a faux pas that would only make them frowned upon - but here, it's the norm.
A parallel question which has struck me about jazz (and applies to classical music as well) is, "when did it stop being fun?" The mental image I think many people have of jazz today is the cooly aloof musician-in-black, weaving an art inaccessible to the uninitiated, and movies like Whiplash portray an (almost literally) deadly seriousness. Watching a movie like Stormy Weather from 1943, by contrast, you have Fats Waller at the piano swapping quips with Lena Horne, Cab Calloway slinking and strutting to the Jumping Jive, the Nicholas Brothers with that amazing dance number....
An answer to your question I came up with is "when jazz musicians became insufferable about it." I've met a number of jazz musicians. Most of them are sweet folks...but that loud minority...they really suck all of the fun out of it. I came to this conclusion realizing that I had none of the same knots in my back when listening to a Charlie Parker recording that I would otherwise have attending a jazz gig and conversing with other musicians and self-proclaimed coinsures. It was really eye-opening. I've been avoiding the genre not because of the music, but because of a few negative experiences I've had with a minority of jazz folks. Isn't that sad?
I wonder when that will happen with rock, funk, hip-hop, electronic etc..., where the general audience no longer appreciates these genres as a way of expression, breaking of old traditions and pure fun entertainment for both the listeners and the audience, and starts looking at them as a status symbol and a technical showcase of skill. I might sound a little elitist but you get my point.
Jazz is basically music for music’s sake but for some reason a lot of people nowadays assume that means boringly snobbish… when you’re right, it should be about fun and freedom.
I don't know if you're really looking for an answer, but this actually has one! The answer is "Bebop". Before bop, jazz was considered "popular" music, in the same way that we think about rock/pop/rap etc today. Jazz started out in New Orleans as parlor music for saloons and brothels. Then came Swing music, which was basically just music for people to dance to! It wasn't until bop that jazz rose to what people (or rather, music critics) considered "art music", mostly because of the fact that bebop necessitates smaller crowds and has little mass-appeal compared to swing, thereby drawing in smaller-but-more-devoted audiences (apparently something can't be "art" if it's popular). And once bebop was declared "art music", it elevated the prior jazz traditions to the same level, due to those prior artists latching on to the narrative that bop was the culmination of their work; suddenly Louis Armstrong could be accepted as a legitimate artist (and thus get better bookings and more publicity) if he looked at Dizzie Gillespie and announced "That's my boy! Taught him everything he knows!". This is also why jazz history seems so clean and orderly before bebop (N.O. Jazz begat Swing, which begat Bebop), and then flies off in a dozen different directions afterwards (Cool Jazz, Free Jazz, Fusion, etc): the clean narrative was reinforced by economic forces. So it was bebop (basically, "after World War II") that jazz started taking itself seriously. Before then, it was basically considered "Party Music", and took itself about as seriously as the band LMFAO (remember them?).
Jazz is just poorly represented in the mainstream. Whiplash being one of the more horrendous examples. I still shake my head thinking that they are stuck at Buddy Rich... and not the 50s, 60s, 70s.... Not Ellington or Sun Ra... it's like how "In the Mood" seems to be the only war time jazz song. I've been attending jazz and new music concerts for about 25 years now.. there's really two major branches of jazz.. the first is the more accessible mashing of traditional jazz with classical that came about in the late 70s. That's what you get at most supper festivals. The second is carrying the torch for the free jazz and the post-war European jazz. i"m into the latter. We don't get big crows but we're friendly and dedicated... if not a bit shy. I haven't experience this thing about jazz fans being insufferable.. if anything it's the classic rock fans who've decided there's only 5 jazz albums worth owning.
It’d be interesting to see you discuss metal elitism, as it’s in a way, the total opposite of classical elitism. Things like displaying wealth and popularity (like in music videos) are actually looked down upon, and the value is placed on underground music and detachment from the mainstream.
Oh absolutely. It can also get kind of hypocritical from the various debates I've seen online too lol. It's definitely something interesting to think about
Metal is one of the most gatekept genres of music in existence. It's intentional, if I'm understanding it right. They have the so-called "Wall of Death" to keep the normies away from the more interesting and chill subgenres. Metal's not just exclusionary by feeling out of place, like Classical, it actively tried to disgust the uninitiated into leaving. Note that this information is coming from some art students I met in college several years ago...
@@Greenicegod I will disagree that the chiller stuff is automatically more interesting, but yeah definitely. I almost always recommend my less heavy favorites to people (usually symphonic or power metal) because they are a lot better for a beginner and also awesome in their own right. So I guess I'm trying to break the stereotype?
@@Greenicegod uhhhhh… I think the wall of death is a thing in metal mosh pits where the audience splits into 2 sides, which then rush each other… It’s not about at all about driving people away though. It’s complicated. The emphasis is on authenticity and expressing yourself, so things like fame and manufactured music are looked down on and rejected. And they also don’t really like people who like “surface level” metal bands. There’s a lot more too it though
Thank you for this video!!! Especially here in Germany, most music colleges are completely geared towards "classical" music. Even if there is a jazz/pop department, they do not do these styles of music justice. In music colleges in particular, you experience this strong arrogance of "classical" musicians towards jazz musicians, pop musicians and prospective school teachers - mainly among students and mostly old instrument teachers. That is such a shame. But if you then look at the schools, a 70-year-old curriculum is being taught that wants exactly that: It is almost only about Gregorian chants, baroque, classical, romantic, late romantic, modern. And almost only western music. The music that the students mostly listen to is lost and framed as "unimportant" in the lessons. I don't want to ignore the fact that things are slowly getting better, but the change is so sluggish and slow, it's really crap!
"By telling someone what they should be saying, you're not listening." is a beautiful sentiment with which to approach complex and at first unaccessible art. I hope I remember that!
"Oh noooo! The Working Class!" (spooky ghost noises) That was the part where I stopped having this in the background and started paying attention. "L'enfer, c'est lest autres" was the bit that had me splitting my sides :) Thanks for sharing
Just wow! I loved this video. (I also loved the Shosty bit at the very end). As a person from a Middle-Class Background™️ (lower middle class, to be exact) the classical music/sophistication relationship was always there during my upbringing, horribly enforcing a particular kind of middle class, aspirational elite snobbery. All that while my family struggled to save money so that they could get me a half decent, mass-produced violin. Took me a while to realize what was going on, and there's no single day that passes by without me wanting to share all the love I have for classical & connecting with other people that may not be familiar with it, and want to get into listening to western classical music. Anyways, I'll always hate those perfume commercials with Mahler playing in the background. Thank you so much for this and I hope the video brings the very much needed nuance to the discussion :)
I wish I had that. I grew up in the opposite. Music was above us, we were not "given the talent" was something I heard a lot. I still took up instruments, but I was expected to fail them. Taking them seriously was a waste of time.
I had a piano instead of a violin; but otherwise my experience was similar. The only music worth playing was classical music and church music (19th century style hymns, not "contemporary Christian"); while I preferred ragtime and jazz, which was fortunately "classic American" enough for them to eventually accept. Rock music was right out, however.
Looks like i've got kind of similar story. I begged my family to buy me a keyboard. One day when playing some not so hard Bach pieces, it was one of "Little preludes" i guess, i heard a noise from neibourghs. I have thought: "What... Why.. are you, lesser beings, bothering me?!" This terified me and i stopped playing for over a month. But was a nice lesson of humilty at least
In Vienna, there's the Sommernachtskonzert by the Vienna Philarmonic. It's set in the same castle garden that was shown throughout this video, but it is not at all an elitist event. it's outdoors, late at night, free of charge and usually an excuse for students to get drunk on a weekday.
When I was in the 5th grade, we were taken on a field trip to the symphony by our cool AF 5th grade teacher, who also was a musician in her own right. The bus ride to the concert was filled with many of my friends, including myself, scoffing and making fun of classical music. We were all subject to the media stereotypes about classical music I guess. The bus ride back home was a complete 180 of attitude and impressions. We were all blown away by the experience. Myself, and most of my friends, were fans of classical music from that point on. I bring in classical elements to my own music to this day.
as someone who doesn't understand music that much or study full movements or concert pieces, I can say that as a kid I loved Andrea's concerts. it was fun to watch and seeing everyone outside and having a good time added to that. I didn't feel that it was that devisive. though I was never raised to see classical music as boring or high class. it was always something nice and comforting
I just started, but I need to mention: Elitism in Neon Green papyrus font with a red drop-shadow is one of the greatest visual jokes I've ever seen. I am laughing so hard right now I was barely able to write this. Brava.
This is a fantastic video, and I agree whole-heartedly with what you say. I am from a German working-class background, and even though music has been of utmost importance to me even as a child, I always felt that I bumped into invisible boundaries when trying to explore music as a career, and more than once was I reminded of my place by the "gate-keepers" mentioned in the video. My parents did encourage me, but only to consider music as a hobby and get a real job. So I did. But I kept at music, even though as a complete and utter dilettante. I became a teacher instead ,as the first of my family to visit university. There, again I was reminded of my humble beginnings quite a bit. Now,I am planning to take part in a programme which will qualify me to teach music at secondary school. Guess what approach I will be taking... Again, thank you.
absolutly, I had no access to music school... because it was to expensive, when I was a child. And when I tryed to get into a professional singing career as an adult I was told, that while voice and talent are there, the fact that I had no education as a child means I will not even pass the entry conditions and tests.
What started out as an exploration of elitism in society means turned into a lesson on empathy and the shaping of entire cultures through music. You've been putting out banger after banger, and this is no exception! Time to watch this five more times in a row
One thing that has really helped classical music has been videogames. I can't tell you the amount of friends who went from thinking classical is dumb to having Jeremy Soule, Borislav Slavov, Nobuo Uematsu, and Darren Korb on their playlists.
@@ses694 Jeremy Soule - Skyrim & Guild Wars. Borislav Slavov - Divinity Original Sin 2 & Baldur's Gate 3. Nobuo Uematsu - Final Fantasy until Masayoshi Soken took over (who is also amazing). Darren Korb Hades & Pyre and everything by Supergiant. All some of the best soundtracks ever made.
@@godminnette2 e.g. the way he looks down on Andre Rieu and his audience. He also does not want to see classical music used in commercials. What does he want then? Keep it all for his elitist self? André Rieu, commercials and many of the other example which he detests is how children in families that are different from the one in which he grew up come into contact with classical music. He SAYS that he is against elitism, but his arguments all show that he is the #1 elitist himself.
I'm a relatively young guy (30) and since the pandemic began I've been getting into opera; I think this is an art form that could really benefit from shaking off the stuffy, white middle class image because honestly it's a really exciting, visceral art form when you get right down to it. It's big, silly and honestly amazing. I come from a background of mostly listening to rock and metal music and I find the sensibilities fit really well. It's ultimately an art form where the primary driver is the ability to be comprehended, unamplified, in a massive space. This applies both to the singing techniques, with an emphasis on vocal power and piercing overtones, and the dramatic elements, which are necessarily large and over the top. I even appreciate the fact that a lot of the best singers got to where they were not through just being hot and good enough at singing, but by virtue of their extraordinary voices, so you have a diverse range of body types represented throughout history (still predominantly white though it should be noted). It might also be one of the only examples where things really were better in the past, back when it was a lot more popular.
Cannot recommend Hoffmann enough: it's great! Also Wagner, of course. Just a little push back, it's a European art form so why are you surprised that they're white? It's like complaining that so few djembe players are chinese!? To quote from my favourite book, isn't this diverse enough for you? : "She sang, of course, "M'ama!" and not "he loves me," since an unalterable and unquestioned law of the musical world required that the German text of French operas sung by Swedish artists should be translated into Italian for the clearer understanding of English-speaking audiences." - Edith Wharton, Age of Innocence
@@ButlerianJihadi not so much a complaint, more of an acknowledgement and not wanting to oversell the diversity historically present in opera. Actually these days a lot of great singers seem to come from Korea and China, so the art does seem to be diversifying somewhat
I was watching this video, and when the opera clips entered I thought to myself "Opera must surely be the most elitistic part of classical music...." I would argue that it is less so now than before, due to the way they used operatic vocals in metal...
I think they are often long and boring tbh Wozzeck or more modern operas are cool, but most old operas are just boring and always the same, and I'm composer
@@musicfriendly12 I tend to agree and I think there's nothing wrong with just listening to the good bits; the one exception for me is Turandot, I can happily listen to that all the way through
This is incredibly compelling for me. It's interesting to see a discussion on the barriers towards getting into music, as someone who feels like they missed out. I'm so passionate about music, I feel so connected to it, and I have a much higher tolerance for experimental music than most I know have (and honestly more than I do for other art forms). I can easily see a timeline where I pursued music, and I'm only recently realizing how blind I've been to this passion all along. Alas, I was unable to receive music instruction growing up. Music class in primary school was only a couple times a month, and involved no playing. In my later years I did not get the opportunity to take music classes in school, including band class. So here I am, 23 and just learning basic piano, and experiencing a lot of pain due to my lack of dexterity (and tiny stubby hands and fingers). I wish I'd gotten into it sooner. I wish I understood real music theory. I wish I'd developed an ear for notes when I was most malleable instead of struggling with identification of notes. I appreciate your respect for the poor kids that didn't get the same chance.
Hey, I only started piano at 25. Took a bit of doing, but I got reasonably good (until I stopped). Don't let the age this bother you. The major obstacle I faced was teaching myself to relax and let mistakes happen without being too bothered.
@@Tantacrul this is a message I love, as something that really frustrates me is that other musicians were so much more talented than I am at a much earlier point in their lives than me, (Tim Henson at 10 years old for example)
The best time to start learning music is when you were born. The second best time is now! All you need is to try new things and practice and you will get there. People with perfect pitch were and are rare, so don't sweat it if you can't identify at first blush. Plus, real music theory is really just music convention and best practice, not ironclad rules. There are rules of thumb that exist that can guide your music - but like painting, basic rules can be bent and broken to serve the message you are trying to send.
In ethnomusicology classes we studied social stratification through Prague opera hall. The audience is literally put on a class tiers by the seating order. The front rows are for the classical music obsessives, regular visitors with long term passes, behind them are the class climbers, often people who don't really enjoy the music, but want to be seen in an elite spaces. Up above them are the tourists, then the music students and then the regular people. And wealthy donors are completely separated in their personal boxes. And what really surprised me that of the regulars, most are working class people. People from small cities, who once in a year take their only formal dress, women take their inherited jewelery and they go to Prague to feel special. Meanwile middle-class people from Prague don't go there. They just like bitching that the National opera plays only Smetana, Dvořák and other composers beloved by the Czech masses.
Powerful stuff. I've studied Music Education at the conservatory, and from that slight distance I could look at the different tastes of elitism - and their related insecurities - of classical, jazz and rock students. Of these groups I always felt most comfortable around the classical folks, because I had the sense that *image* wasn't as important there as in the other genres - It was more about commitment and faithfulness to the art (and drinking wine). Jazz folks came across like they were doing a contest who could shred the hardest at the most prestigious jam sessions with the most prestigious band members (and snort coke). Rock folks were doing a contest who had the most commercial appeal (and smoke pot). Ultimately I didn't feel comfortable in any of these scenes, being the non-competitive jack-of-all-trades that I was (and still am!). I'm glad I've found a scene in which I feel at ease, which is being a video game music composer because I'm a nerd! =D
Someone once described jazz as 4 musicans playing different songs at differenr tempos at the same time with 50 people in the crowd and the 4 musicians are the only ones having fun. With metal it's not just about speed. It's how many breakdowns can you have and can your breakdowns have breakdowns. Lol
Classical I found snobby. Have to play it a certain way or it is incorrect and so on. Jazz seems to have gone off the deep end a long time ago. And there's a lot of snobbery.
I went to music school, but I was one of the poorer students. I didn’t have teachers who had connections to the university professors growing up, so I didn’t get access to a lot of things. I was teaching to pay for tuition, which meant I didn’t have time to go to extra concerts, and festivals in the summers because I didn’t have rich parents who could send me to Europe and Asia. Because of that, I missed out on so many opportunities to “network.” These people got to get into the best masterclasses, had connections to get into competitions, schools, scholarships…granted most of us became piano teachers…it still sucked…it’s never been about how well you play…only about how much money you have, and your connections…
"it's never been about how well you play" that's completely false buddy, the only thing that matters is how well you play, that's how you win competitions and get scholarships, there's a reason that jury members of competitions never have their own students compete, its because they keep it solely about how well you can play. If you practiced enough and worked hard then you could win the competitions too, but it seems to me you're blaming your own lack of achievement on the fact that you're poor
@@femboyfanservice6138 What defines how well you play? perfect note for note transcription? The quality of the instrument you hold? The "emotion" that you play with? The genetic physical characteristics that lend to the tone in your playing? How marketable you are in appearance, background? The point OP is making, above whether or not they were "good", is that there certainly is a vast discrepancy in the opportunities people have to learn and experience, depending on generational wealth and status.
@@ReapDaProductions marketing, background, appearance has nothing to do with it. The top 2 violinists in the world, one of them is facially disfigured and the other is paralyzed in both his legs. And emotion can't be bought
I had a music teacher in high school that presented us with an end of the year project - to share a composition that we liked and make an attempt to explain why. I chose 'Fear and Wonder' by Dimmu Borgir as I thought it was a moving piece and it was orchestral - I was in Orchestra class and it was a short and sweet piece. This music teacher humiliated me in front of my peers and said that it 'went nowhere' compositionally and they laughed at me and my grade was based off of his subjective taste and judgement. Ew, humans. Lol
That is a horrible teacher, and also why i hated subjective classes where i can lose points for my opinion not matching the teacher's. I took the engineering path where atleast math has to be objectively right or wrong and for multiple parts we use "ok assuming" so if you need the answer for part a to solve parts b-e you only get penalized once if you otherwise followed the process right. If the assignment is pick a piece you like and explain why, then as long as you pick any piece, even a dumpster fire, and make a solid case pointing out music theory points or even just "i like this bit because i just do" then you should get credit.
Teachers really fucked me up. Destroyed my confidence. Fuckin assholes. Some are great; But not enough. And WTF is "the left" other than the new boogyman? Jayzoos Fooken Kriyst Ahmytee grow UP peeps
the impostor phenomenon part reminded me of a quote from a book which said, that you hate the people you hate, because in a world where they are accepted, you are disliked and thus they are a threat to your entire being. music is such a big part for a lot of people and they identify with it deeply, so when popular perception of your favorite artist/genre changes, it can be hard not to take offense.
I've come to realise over the years that the music that has had the most popularity over time tends to contain something for everyone at every level. For example, some of Beethoven's works can be boiled down to a simple melody line: symphony number 5 (ba-ba-ba-baaaa/judge judy theme), symphony number 9 (ode to joy) etc.; but they also have much more complex structures behind the "simple" melody that can be analysed and acedemiaed to the hearts content. As a result, someone with little to no musical education in the area can appreciate it alongside someone with 1000s of hours of classical musical education. If music is too simple/commercial with no "backbone" it can achieve initial popularity with the masses, but will generally fade as people don't gain anything from re-listening and the academics can't find anything to get excited about. If music is too challenging/complex/w*nkery it may have a few die hard nerds that absolutely love it, but will never achieve popularity as most people can't even listen to it in the first place. I think an innate understanding of this phenomenon is what seperates "the greats" from everyone else.
At some point in my life, I realised that the enjoyment other people get out of music that I don't care for, is just as real and therefore legitimate as the enjoyment I get from music that I like. Even if it hits another part of their psyche from mine, that music is doing what it should do - bringing enjoyment. So now, if I say something like, "I prefer their earlier stuff." I don't mean their later stuff is inferior, it's at most an expression of my disappointment that they didn't carry on in the style I liked best. I think this egalitarian perspective puts me in an elite group far above most music fans. 😁
This video definitely makes me realise that there's a far-reaching extent to my own elitism and not just in music. When my son watches Lego Ninjago, I immediately reach for cherished childhood epics like The Mysterious Cities of Gold and pour a mental disdain over all modern kid's TV. Even though, and it pains me to even type this, Lego Ninjago probably has ...as much depth (argh, if not more) and ... urgh historical accuracy ...than (argh) a cartoon which proports to be based on fact. Plus it's hand-drawn and therefore better. Phew, wasn't so bad.
Watched this video a couple days ago, and I've been reflecting on it a while. As someone from more of a rock and folk background, it was interesting to see musical elitism from a mostly art music and but a little bit dubstep perspective. I've always enjoyed Skrillex (though as tourist who's not too into electronic music) and kind of thought people had a "they hate us 'coz they ain't us" envy of success. But that he went REALLY mainstream with a less subtle interpretation of dubstep is a valid reason dislike his music... or at least how it presents the genre. Even knowing this though, I will still continue to enjoy his music In the final thoughts section I liked the bit about not jumping to conclusions about the listeners who like such music. It's a similar conclusion I came to during my 2 tours of Ireland before the pandemic. MANY people said how much they liked "Wagon Wheel," which during my musical career had become the most cliched song to cover in the history of American folk. I realized these Irish people probably have no idea of the background, and there is nothing defecient about these Irish people's taste for being fond of Wagon Wheel, And reflecting on rock, i thought of Nickelback's reputation, i would say they occupy a similar space as Andre Riu, and sorta deserve the hate they get, in that they play a watered-down version of 90s grunge without any edge - which can be demonstrated in the rhythm guitar part of "photograph" compared to many of Alice In Chain's songs.. Though, in keeping with your final thoughts section, i can understand that despite all this, one can enjoy their music, and when my flatmate was blaring "This is How You Remind Me," I did my best to refrain from going full hipster. But seriously, this was a fantastic video, and everyone involved in music should watch it.
Wagon Wheel is actually a very very popular song in Ireland through the Irish country music scene, which is very popular in rural areas but is considered uncool and unoriginal by a lot of Irish people, particularly those who live in Dublin. This may not be relevant to your experience, but then again maybe it is...
I find it interesting that Mozart's 'patronage predicament' - as much as we deprecate it today - is precisely the same situation for elite artists in some fields now. I'd posit that Andy Warhol and a number of "famous" modern artists likewise succeeded solely due to their sucking up to wealthy benefactors and patronage protection. Otherwise they'd have been basically nothing and died desperate in their mid 30s too.
Growing up in a semi-competitive musical environment, it seems to me that one of the reasons why musicians are so eager to exert their superiority over others, creating very steep hierarchies is the lack of resources: its a cruel form of Sayre`s law.
Well I think we shouldn't be so quick to call people's theories and thoughts 'laws' as though they were backed by scientific evidence, ESPECIALLY in an academic setting. I mean what next! ...
About 10 years ago I had my first project as a composer with.... an unnamed top conductor. And whenever he had questions for me during rehearsal, he said to the concertmaster "Please ask the composer if he wants an Ab there" while I was right in front of him. He wouldn't even use my name. I was "the composer". I would answer the conductor's question directly to him, and then for the next question, again, he addressed the concertmaster to pass the question along. No matter what, he wouldn't talk to me directly. I was quite shocked and humiliated. Later, during the break, one of the orchestra members told me not to take it personally, and that he does this often. Only a few weeks later I guess the conductor thought I was deemed worthy to be spoken to. I do not miss working with him.
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Thanks a lot for watching. I really appreciate it! Incidentally, this video took around 8 months to produce and involved a reasonable amount of production costs too - all made possible by my Patrons. If you would like to help me finance my future videos and get a sneak look at how I put them together, please consider becoming a patron. www.patreon.com/Tantacrul. If you can't do that, I obviously understand. Even sharing this video with a friend helps massively (but only if you think it deserves to be shared!).
I also have a really cool Discord server:
Discord: t.co/a3oYi1Rbnc?amp=1
I'm banned from Discord because they're elitists.
Bravo on resisting the urge to mention Cardiacs
Hey Tantacrul, what do you feel about this guy explaining how this beat is in "every" song? :D
ruclips.net/video/k5EZgA-fjnI/видео.html
Very good video!! :D
Another great video, about a constantly topical subject! It can be a frustrating thing, to see people dismiss things because of their perception or lack of will to understand it.
But, I also believe it is something that everyone goes through, myself included. I've had my elitist moments in the past, and coming out of that bubble/echo chamber is a liberating feeling. What saved me was enrolling into a music academy, where all kinds of styles and perspectives are prevalent.
So, your point about education highligts the importance to equalize access to both good lower and higher education. If everyone gets a fair chance in education, then they'll be introduced to all kinds of art that deserves to be appriciated and perserved.
I think part of the problem is that music is often treated as extracurricular in schools - it's the first subject to get cut when funding becomes tight, so it quickly becomes limited to private schools. Yet, for me, music is as important to our culture today as 'core' subjects like languages and history. It's a shame, but fortunately music is becoming a much more accessible area of study than it was a couple of decades ago.
I have always found it interesting that english departments continue to stay funded even though they seem to fall in the same boat as music.
100%-I’m fortunate enough to have a very strong music program at my school, and for me, music has become something of a core subject. I am currently a part of 4 different ensembles + IB Music and all while some of this does take place outside of school hours, all but one of these are actual school courses that go on my transcript.
Is that really true? Is it really typically cut before art and drama? I think those guys have it much worse. As far as arts go, I think music is actually extremely well positioned.
@@alexandersanchez9138 Unfortunately yes. In Canada, where I'm from, music gets dismissed as an extracurricular, something that's done as a hobby rather than something that can be done as a career, and there's always this apathy about music from the people working at the school districts because they had this apathy as a kid and then it gets carried over when they become adults. As a result, it's difficult for a music teacher to actually get a decent amount of funding from the school district because even the people working at the school district doesn't care.
@@bluelover110 My point is only that this seems to be a feature of arts programs, in general. And, compared to visual arts and theater, I think music programs actually tend to fair a lot better. Are you saying that music is underfunded worse than other arts in Canada? I wouldn't know.
"The trouble with music appreciation in general is that people are taught to have too much respect for music; they should be taught to love it instead."
- Igor Stravinsky (New York Times Magazine, 9/27/64.)
Fun fact... the burning of Castle Frankenstein by angry villagers with torches and pitchforks is what inspired Igor to later compose the now famous and beloved Firebird Suite.
While working at Castle Frankenstein, Igor had been taking a correspondence course in music composition.
Skippy the Bush Kangaroo says... "True!"
Ancient astronaut theorists say yes!
Now that Is a Man whose words i can take seriously
I’m reading this while wearing a sweater with Stravinsky written on it and man I wish I realized this earlier. I was one of those who grew up playing classical piano pieces but still sucked after 8 years of consistent practice. I practiced a lot, but never understood why I wasn’t good, then I recently realized I never loved the piano or classical music.
One time I really felt classical music only being played for the sake of elitism was during one holiday of mine. I stayed with family but a luxury hotel nearby was hosting a famous chellist of the country I went to holiday in. Eager for a nice activity I and my family booked tickets. But the concert was a total desaster. The microphone couldnt handle the chello´s and piano´s range and had a terrible pick up pattern. It was outside near the sea, leading to terrible accoustics. And nearly everyone there was from the luxury hotel because they got free tickets and wanted to feal fancy and classy. They took pictures of the venue and their tickets but then left halfway trough came back with a lot of noise, had children playing and running around infront of the stage. I later went up to the cellist to thank him for his great performance and give my "condolences" on the bad set up by the hotel which had heavily hindered his performance and to take a picture. Interestingly he was sooo thankful that someone was aware of what was going on and also sooo upset, that he then hung out at the bar with me and gave me some input on a piece I was working on(I play the piano).
There's a reason why wind instruments were used in outdoor concerts(serenade works) back in the day, such as Mozart's time. The winds could carry a tune outside.
It's difficult to assess how valuable having the right crowd in the place is. My friends where putting on small electric / acoustic concerts by the lake and the wind was always a big issues..
Sounds like a disaster. Glad you were able to brighten up the performers mood
@@TehKaiser Wind instruments are louder.
@@radiobiologist also their "vibrating" parts are generally internal and less prone to accidentally making noise as the wind blows over the strings. (Apologies for not know the catch all term for reeds, strings, and all other parts of instruments responsible for actually vibrating to make the sound)
Basically a 5mph wind will make a guitar's strings vibrate slightly but won't affect a saxophone's reed or trumpet player's lips.
But also loudness is a factor, although in modern times we have microphones and speakers to overcome this limitation. (Assuming the set up won't pick up the wind)
I wonder how Johnny Rotten would have felt about Mozart had he known that Mozart once wrote a real song called "Kiss My Ass"?
lech mein in arsch is an absolute banger too
@madeliner1682 *Lech mich im Arsch.
Sorry. I'm really anal about that sort of thing. ;)
@@madeliner1682 It is called „Leck mich im Arsch“, literally: Lick me in the arse.
I mean, as much as I love punk, there is something to be said about at least learning about the classics.
Shakespeare is my gig - so many people are so shocked when I point out with proof that Shakespeare played to the lower classes - that's why we still venrate him. He played to the masses and lived on. They always are shocked when I tell them about "the dirty bits"
I love that you included Milton Babbitt. I met him at a performance of one of his works about 20 years ago. He asked what I did for a living. I answered that I sell synthesizers (really just worked at a music store, but I’ve always been a synth geek/specialist) to which he responded, “Quite a noble profession”. Sincerity or sarcasm, it’s one of the highlights of my life to have met this delightful man.
I hope he was being sincere since a lot of modular synthesis revolves around generative music, which in some ways isn't so different than Babbitt's vision.
Regardless of how much you might like him and his music, I have a pretty dim view of his music. What he was like as a person-I have no idea...
what a king…
I mean... you were selling musical instruments. How those instruments were used, that's a whole other business. I'm pretty sure he was being sincere.
I think people largely misjudge Babbit because of that one particular article that he wrote in a specific moment in his life; after all he started to be a musician as a "prodigy child" jazz songwriter and saxophone player. Even later in life, after he became a composer of """serious music""", he retained that love for popular music; he has a piece called All Set for Jazz Ensemble, written just a year before that infamous article
So when can we get together for some more bourgeois cosplay?
Good for Wednesday actually. I know this should be a DM, but it helps the algo.
@@Tantacrul I'll get my wig
As long as I can wear my furry fox costume, I'm in.
@@unduloid uhm...
Only if you put a bowtie on it and wear proper shoes (if you can find a way)
@@absurddive
Heels all the way, baby!
Can I just point out that the no-clapping rule came about AFTER the middle class and more everyday folk started listening? When it was still the pet of the nobility, people did plenty of different things, including having dinner and conversation while the music played. When more average people got involved, they came for the music itself.
ah yes aint it weird how that sound inverse to our expectations. wed assume the rich to be stuffy- but they were casual- and wed assume the average to be half interested but theyre otaku.
why is the no clapping rule bad again? you care more about the idea of classism seeping into music rather than the actual benefit of not interrupting the performance.
@@Whatismusic123 Dude, read the comment again
@@PuddintameXYZ to be fair though there is a lot of context missing within your initial statement and i too am having hard time making sense out of it and the reasoning for the no-clapping rule
I noticed something really annoying that has sort of happened as a result too: people have stopped clapping between *pieces* at a lot of concerts I've been to/performed in because they don't want to accidentally clap between movements because that would be disgusting and awful
16:50 Just floored by the fact that Mozart, who now symbolizes elitism, was actually Punk Rocker for his time! Amazing video.
Mozart was a skunk goblin, who wrote some truly trashy pieces, the most memorable to me being a Cantata to Coffee and a gutter-scraping Lick Me in the Arse.
Don't get me wrong, I love the bastard, but he's not the clean pristine thing we're brought up to believe.
thats what i was thinking! .
Coffee Cantata is by Bach but your point stands
Mozart is the most famous and the most overrated classical composer ever.
@@thecatofnineswordsthe Coffee Cantata was Bach (BWV 211)
About the issue of private schools having more music resources and music usually being a costly hobby, I live in a somewhat small Italian city (
Was the instrument a piccolo?
@@matankesselman456 Nope, it's basically if flute and recorder had a child. All I know about it is that it was produced in central Italy in the '70s (maybe) by a company that's no longer in operation. They claim they made the instrument to be like a flute but easy for beginners. It's probably their own design.
Fellow Italian here (writing in English to favour everybody comprehension of the matter): the thing is that the reality of the "banda di paese" (municipal band, I guess?) is a European concept only, that is most commonly present in countries such as Germany, Austria, parts of Switzerland and widely spread in Italy. The other countries cannot rely on this reality to spread musical education and to allow children to start studying music for cheap. The sad thing is that we have this amazing tool that is completely ignored by any sort of authority (be it local or national), while in countries such as Japan (from what I've understood over the years) musical education is presented to every student in the same way that they get exposed to maths, literature or any other discipline, which is what should happen if we really want to put musical studies (be it of classical, jazz or pop music) on the same level as all of the other disciplines, giving them the dignity that they deserve
One of my Rich Person Fantasies© is to fully fund music programs for low-income communities across Texas, especially southern and southeastern Texas. Maybe someday.
@@diegorovaglia6945 The "banda di paese" would likely not work as well in the megacities of the US; but certainly public schools could provide similar education in music, including having instruments available for students. Several of the primary and secondary schools I attended (my family moved around a bit) had instruments available for students to learn music on, and music education was required throughout primary school (it was optional in secondary school).
In primary school, the instruments the schools provided were pretty basic things like the flutophone (a simpler version of the recorder) or a very basic melodica (specifically, a Hoener melodica soprano). In secondary school, there were more traditional orchestral/marching band instruments available for rental by students who couldn't afford their own. But at least they were useful for teaching basic music theory.
Mind you, that was roughly four decades ago now, and schools have de-emphasized music education since then, mainly due to lack of funding and governmental emphasis on standardized testing (music isn't part of the standardized tests, so no resources are allocated to teaching it). That is something I'd like to see revived and expanded.
"I think most of these groups would be vastly improved by a sudden death" was so blunt and vicious of a line that I felt like I was socked in the face by it.
Same here! They invite a band on live TV, tell them to go and die, and then expect to be respected? That's elitism in action.
It was so blunt it actually made me laugh out loud. It was so vicious and needlessly antagonistic it loops back around to being funny to me
That was blunter then getting hit by a brick straight towards the face
i'm gonna use that one
I so loved that line! I say something that approximates it whenever I encounter horrible people at work, school or wherever, really.
(Actually, I just daydream about saying it to their faces. I don't want to be a mean person...well, unless I really lose my patience, then I curse that person and their family members to die . . . each in creative ways, like in the Final Destination movies 😇)
#MaleWednesday 👁️_👁️
One thing I just realised (although no doubt others have noticed that before) that also reeks of elitism to me is the idea that you're only allowed to criticise something if you could do it better or are proficient in the creation of it.
Like, the idea that you're not allowed to call a video or movie badly made or a song boring or a meal bad tasting unless you're an expert in the field. And I'll openly admit that having experience in the respective field will likely help give more detailed criticism or suggestion ways to improve it, but the way it's treated as an absolute sometimes is just elitist, imo. I don't need to be a 5 star chef to tell if a dish makes me want to vomit, or a professional director to notice if a movie is badly lit.
Especially because I wouldn't be aware of that being used nearly as often the other way around. At least I never came across someone saying they like something and getting shouty responses about how they aren't allowed to praise it unless they also work in the field.
Yeah. Why wouldn't viewers or customers be able or know or have preference when they're the one who are suppose to enjoy and paid for things? But there's the other side where people bully people's work or have too high standards. I think that's what cause some people to respond back with "then you do better" too. It isn't always from elitism or malicious intent. But sometimes to try to counter bullying. There's a difference between bullying and criticizing.
I think partly why it's good to have experience is so people can understand how hard it is to make things, like music. Or perform it. Then be more compassionate. Some people even slander and vilify artists, saying they made bad art with the intent to hurt people. Not all. Sometimes it's mistakes or subjective taste. Fans and people can get really passionate or uptight about art.
It's one thing to say "I don't like it" or "its bad." Everybody has got an opinion. It takes more effort and knowledge to be able to critique something and give reasons why you don't like something. Constructive criticism is a rare thing to receive in my experience as there aren't enough people with the vocabulary or background to give it properly. I always ask people after a concert "how was it" and they respond with a polite "it was good/alright" or more times than not "I couldn't hear X" or "the mix was off" but couldn't give a precise enough example. The hardest thing to get out of anybody is good advice. Which is why I try my best to give good feedback when ever I can.
The flaw in your reasoning is that criticism and praise are not two sides of the same coin. The vast, vast, *vast* majority of so-called criticism comes from a place of ignorance. It's the inherent nature of criticism: if you criticse something, it means you probably don't like it, which means you are probably either missing it's appeal, and therefore criticise things that either don't matter, or are actually important features of the artform (see: 'rap is bad because its harmonically homogenous' or 'Nirvana is bad because Kurt Cobain can't sing'), or worse, don't make the effort to perform any form of accurate, good-faith analysis. On the other hand, praise is much easier: if you like something, you probably understand what makes it appealing, and will make the effort to understand and dissect the material accurately. The two are not opposites, one is much, much more difficult than the other. I cannot stress enough just how much criticism (especially public criticism, e.g. print/online) is completely meaningless. It's okay to not like something, but that doesn't warrant any form of valid criticism.
I think there are two sides of the coin, depending on what and how it is being criticized. It is true that everyone is able to criticize, but it is also true that ignorance often makes that critique sometimes unrealistic and or problematic. Specially nowadays that everyone has the same weight on critique, or even more than specialists.
So for example, I work in the game industry, have been doing so for six years. It is very common for me to see gamers throw several critiques at games, that just make me laugh. Because their ignorance on how games are made is shown by what they say. The one that I find that misses the mark the most, and it is very very common, is that gamers are prone to call developer lazy. After six years in working in videogames, I have never met anyone lazy, and if there is anyone not pulling their weight, they get laid off. Working on games is hard work, and even on simple games, it is hard to get days off because it is way too much work.
I have friends who are engineers, doctors, economists, lawyers, etc. I am always working more hours, doing more over time, and I have always something to do, it doesn't matter for what company or project I am working on. So I can see firsthand, how much work it is required to make games... and then i go to see what people think about games I have worked on, and there is always people calling us lazy.... Too many people think making games is easy, as if the only reason a feature is not that good or something is missing, it was just because we were lazy. But if they knew just a bit about game development, they would realize it is the opposite. That often why things get cut, it is because we are unable to do that work because there is already too much on our hands.
So in short, yeah, you do not have to know how to do things to be able to critique it... but knowing how something is done and having experience on it, does indeed add value to the critique.
I have observed that the people who know nothing about what they critique, often make very very extreme and black and white critiques. And the people who do have experience on the field, often make more tamed and nuanced critiques. Because the people that know, often know how difficult and how hard it is to make what they are critiquing, so even if flawed they respect it. While the ones that don't, often have no respect at all for the effort.
One very important thing in visual arts is that they're always based on human perception.
Artists, specifically those who draw and paint (I'll restrict my statement to that since it's what i'm most familiar with), study reality, and how we percieve it. And they study it to replicate and interpret real life phenomena.
This can be applied to anything that revolves around illustrating reality: Futurism, Realism, japanism, expressionism, cartoons, mangas, ecc.
All of these rely on us as humans to interpret the drawing, and associate its content with what we already know.
You wouldn't know why there's a red dot in the sky in claude monet's Sunrise without at the very least having a notion of what is in the sky. For the same reason, it'd appear weird to you if the sun looked blue (in the context of the image at least. you can represent red with blue if the colors are just right.)
Every time you look at a picture, what your brain does is grab from your real life experiences to associate a meaning to the image.
That's why you might not be able to tell exactly WHY a face looks weird, a hand looks wanky, or a cat doesn't look like a cat in medieval paintings (they basically applied human anatomy to the cat's face for the eyes, mouth and nose for what i saw), but you WILL know it looks wanky.
Non-artists might not know the technicisms, and can only give very general feedback. But their life experience is just as important to art as the life experience of the artist itself.
Just because a piece of art was made with intent, that doesn't shield that intent from being called out.
People without experience shouldn't demand their voice have the same weight as an expert in the field, but the experts SHOULD take a look at the statement, even just to educate people. (see how anti-vaxxers are not doctors, but refure to listen to LITERAL MEDICS. That's what SHOULDN'T happen. That's when the public thinks they know the artist's work better than the artist itself and inject dubious claims into otherwise healthy skepticism.)
i grew up playing jazz guitar, i loved blues and jazz and played gigs and shows. playing those shows i’d wear sneakers and jeans. i got into a school for classical guitar because i thought “guitar is guitar” my first performance i got excoriated for wearing jeans and a dress shirt for a small solo performance. i realized that music school dislikes people who don’t grow up in the tradition. after getting shamed for clapping inbetween movements i just didn’t clap because i was scared of getting it wrong. i brought jazz pieces to perform and got told that they weren’t “musically acceptable”
Gotta pick up your socks if you want to be a member of the club!
I got a scholarship to play sax and guitar in jazz band in college and had a similar experience. Apparently I was just supposed to know that the unspoken dress code was all black with a tie lol. Also speaking of snobbery in music academia I'll never forget sitting in a guitar class. The professor played something for us. It sounded like Jimi Hendrix inspired to me. I mentioned it to the professor and he said something like, "Oh no. Hendrix is sloppy". And everyone else in the class was agreeing with him. I was shook.
They don't dislike you for not 'growing up in the tradition'. You did a couple things you shouldn't do and you were corrected for it. This doesn't take a lifetime to learn how to do, it literally just takes one time and then you can figure it out next time. And... you didn't clap after that because you were worried you'd get it wrong? Seems a bit melodramatic, you could just wait a few seconds till others clap and then join in.
And yeh, it's a school for classical guitar, what made you think you could play jazz pieces? They weren't saying jazz is bad, they were saying 'jazz is not what you're here to study'. To be honest, seems like you've got some issues following any sort of social norms, this really shouldn't be that hard.
@@voskresenie- "not mudically acceptable" is a very specific critique
@@t_ylrimagine thinking your better than jimi Hendrix because you teach at a college.
i like how this video tries to point out both the, for lack of a better word, 'aristocratic elitism' of associating classical music with inherited wealth and status and all the material conditions that make that be a thing, but also the, also for lack of a better word, 'commercial elitism' of the popular equals good mentality and the 'niche elitism' of the unpopular and insular equals good mentality.
Well put
Damn, I wish I'd summarised it like that :)
and then while he's doing that, pitches his own kind of "elitism" to us, which we happily soak up, because hey, these are fair points and yeah, screw these scenes - and then he trashes that perspective as its own type of elitism, with a sarcastic relish to finish off with, leaving the viewer uncomfortable with reflecting on 'their own' thoughts they weren't thinking 5 minutes ag- an hour, it's been an hour. Brilliant video essaying; exquisite.
There's something really funny about how commercial elitism feeds into niche elitism. Like so many people feel the need to snobbishly shit on rap. Even people who directly benefit from it like Miley Cyrus and Post Malone lol. Also I fell like I've had the same conversation multiple times about how rock or blues is "dead", but when people say this I think they're just dismissing music for being new or popular. I remember recommending the band Beware of Darkness to someone who was "shocked" that bands were still making that kind of music.
@@t_ylr i mean, not to put too fine a point on it, but the dismissal of hip hop and the whole 'i listen to all sorts of music except hip hop' thing is pretty much always either consciously or subconsciously racist, right? like obviously people have their taste and that's fine, but the general attitude of crowbaring hip hop apart from the rest of the music landscape (which incidentally also shows up in the lack of academic attention given to it in comparison with for example rock music) deffo has a racial element to it.
I cannot understand why Mozart is seen as some icon of elitism and an elitist supporter of the ruling class. The "Marriage of Figaro" was based on a Beaumarchais play written in 1784.The subject of the play, servants outwitting their masters and working against them was hated by the aristocratic ruling class who banned it in many cities across Europe, including Vienna. How the author of a deeply subversive popular opera comes to be seen as an elitist establishment figure is a mystery. Similarly with Beethoven who originally dedicated his Third Symphony the Eroica to Napoleon when he presented himself as revolutionary against the monarchy and aristocracy. When he crowned himself emperor Beethoven furiously scratched out the dedication. He lamented that now Napoleon would become just another tyrant, and trample on the rights of men.No-one sees Leonardo da Vinci or Raphael as elitist nor do they equate the views of these artists with those of their patrons nor are they seen as supporters of the elitist status quo.This is a phenomenon peculiar to music. Both Beethoven and Mozart were pioneering artists seeking to free themselves from aristocratic and royal patronage as far as they could in the social and economic conditions of the time.
I assume it is from the associated aesthetic of the area he was forced to wear to work at courts making him look like what nowadays is associated with that elite. Obviously that stems from a misunderstanding of the symbolism and a lack or context.
It's really funny, considering that Mozart's music was often seen as crude and coarse; especially when he started writing lyrics in his native German, instead of the ostensibly more "sophisticated" Italian.
I don't think there's anything mysterious or confusing about it. What people think is elitist is actually classical music itself because of how it is presented to them through popular culture. To most laypeople, these famous composers are just brand names within the classical music world, so they're guilty by association, but it's not like people are actually singling out Mozart or Beethoven, I doubt they even know their life stories at all.
Mozart is not seen as an icon of elitism. He's an icon of classical music. It's classical music that is seen as an icon of elitism.
Well put, appreciate the context!
It's just worthless people piggy-backing on the genius of others.
When I was a guitar teacher in my early 20s I would always tell my student to never just stick to one genre of music but instead expand their horizon and listen to music from different time periods, different languages and different countries. Some of the parents hated me because they wanted their kids to only classically trained, go to Juilliard and also because rock and roll is and I shit you not “poor people music”.
Una pena. Ni siquiera los grandes compositores europeos fueron como se imaginan ellos. Muchos de ellos tomaron influencias del folclor de su país, diría que algunos más que lo que hicieron de otros compositores y de la tradición clásica. Y luego pensamos que se puede entender o componer una mazurka al estilo de Chopin solo conociéndola de la mano de compositores a partitura.
Rock and roll is not poor people music. The poorest people are too hungry to sing.
@@radiobiologist I think they were implying that poor people aren’t making but *listening* to rock’n’roll.
I think it's the burden of time, merit and influence. Today the same rock and metal worlds hate rap, hip-hop, pop and dance music.
Rock music and every genre does different things for you. Rock is kind of energetic and wild energy. Classical can have energy to in a different way. There's music that can make you sad and happy. There's music that's a lot of fun. Music impacts your emotions.
The part where you described classical music and its use to describe rich people genuinely made me tear up. I enjoy classical music a lot, it's one of my life's passions and seeing how badly it's showcased in media is genuinely depressing to me. Classical music isn't rich, old or white or prestigious, it's colourful, beautiful and meant for everyone to enjoy.
Same, I've been lucky enough that since I was four I've been playing piano and classical music. It's genuinely so beautiful I wish everyone could enjoy it and stop 'gatekeeping' it. Music is all interconnected anyway.
While it *should* be for everyone to enjoy, to say it's not at all white and rich is just simply false. The theory behind said music was largely created by the white and rich and even now (as described in the video) being able to study it is a privilege not everyone can afford. Classical is great and obviously very important, but its negative image amongst the general population didn't just appear out of thin air.
A small point, classical music wasn't created BY rich white people, it was created FOR rich white people. European aristocracy maintained composers and performance ensembles for their entertainment and as status symbols, but the composers and musicians themselves were almost exclusively drawn from the middle class.
But what does it matter anyway, that the music was created for rich white people? Is that a bad thing? The patronage of European aristocracy from the middle ages onward enabled the creation of great works in every art form, but the original intended audience of that art is no barrier to accessibility.
Comments like this remind me of people who obsess over the whole "music theory is racist" thing. Has it been used for elitism, sometimes to target an out group? Yes, but anyone still doing that is misusing, arguably even misunderstanding, music theory. And nothing is stopping you from learning music theory from other cultures. It's kind of ridiculous to me Westerners living in Western countries scratch their heads and go "why have I only been exposed to Western music?" and then conclude that it must be due to racism. They're like a fish not knowing what water is.
And because I know people will be thinking it: I don't mind Adam Neely's video, although, I do think a ton of people are going to walk away with the only impression being made on them being "wow, music theory is like so racist." When I'd argue that wasn't really the point. It was more about how racists tried to use music theory to back up their racism. I think it's unfair to say music theory itself is somehow racist. Just because some racist tries to use milk to explain his superiority doesn't mean milk itself is racist.
@@-yeme-I would argue the distinction between being created for old rich white people and created by them is very minimal. The end result is still something is inherently limited and exclusive of foreign ideas. The same could be said for shows made for children being inherently childlike. Although none of them are being made by actual children and sure some may tackle more adult themes and be serious at moments but at its core it will prioritize what kids like and thus the end result will be childlike in nature. Go too far in the wrong direction and it’s simply not a kids show anymore.
The same can be said for much of the history of classical music up to the 20th century. I think arguing whether music theory is racist is somewhat stupid, because it is not a living being and therefore can’t be racist. What people mean by that is that the ideas that influenced the music and especially the ideas that were excluded and shunned were undoubtedly born out of the likes and desires of an aristocratic and Eurocentric society. I.e old rich white people.
So ultimately is classical music/music theory racist? Probably not, at least not intentionally. But undoubtedly racism has shaped what we now know as classical music and what was deemed as “correct” in music theory circles for a very long time.
I worked for a week in the marketing department at Toronto Symphony Orchestra, we had to cold call people who had previously bought tickets and try to encourage them to become Patrons. THIS is one of the biggest problems, because patrons have a say about the programs (depending on their donation) and they only ever programmed "The Greats" Mozart, Beethoven, Stravinsky, Tchaikovsky etc etc... They operate nothing short of a cartel to not have new composers featured. Occasionally one would get in but wouldn't it be a better musical world if young new contemporary composers got the lion's share of the programme.
That's the complex difficulty of the plight of the artist - we survive by the interest of others' tastes. And that's one thing I think Babbitt touched on rightly - that the more we expand and push our particular art form, the less general appeal/popularity it will have.
A lot of people genuinely like the artistic forms and expressions they are already comfortable with. And it's a really hard balance to both respect that genuine preference with wanting to bring exposure to the less comfortable aesthetics that we are passionate about.
I know a lot of symphony orchestras are responding by incorporating more popular music: orchestral soundtracks - and I think there's legitimacy to that practice. There is a lot of artistry happening in the world of media composition. But I think there may be a growing market of engaging with smaller musical communities that are more crowd-funded/Patreon-based communities, though it will likely take some time to make it economically viable, as the smaller interest groups of niche artistic category and genre are able to be sustained through these more direct-to-artist funding models and rely less on the big money of labels and traditional-style patrons. Time will tell how sustainable this newer model is, but I am honestly optimistic, though it may be at such an economic scale that the grand tradition of the 19th Century massive symphonic orchestra is out of reach for most new contemporary composers.
Of course, there are a lot of pitfalls of this Patreon/gig-style economy, but I do see a potential space for a growing movement of composers who are sustained through Patreon models and potentially could crowdfund performances of their work. Time will tell how much this can work, but it does open up a potential venue that is less restricted by the tyranny of popularity and mainstream.
@@bricelory9534 yeah I liked the live soundtracks with movie thing, Back to The Future was great, and ET.. but in the end it's still playing music of the already-rich-and-famous. It's mainly down to the fact that orchestras are very expensive and patronage pays most of it. Tantacrul hit the nail on the head with the Education chapter. More music education, more musicians, cheaper musicians, more adventurous programmes. It's going to take time, but that's one thing I have.
I wonder, what would happen to patronage when all of these old people are no longer alive(?)
random but i love your music man
why "the greats" in quotation marks?
those ARE the greats.
why would you want to FORCE people to pay for inferior music?
By the way I love this take on "video essays"; not even attempting to deliver any concrete answers but rather just go on an in-depth thought provoking exploration of a subject. Great work!
Not sure if this is a criticism, but your description is correct. I really do not have an answer in this case.
@@Tantacrul honestly, one of the best videos I've ever watched on youtube. I learned a lot.
Not all video essays have always had any concrete answers in them...
yes! that's the best feature of it! no solid conclusion, just a thoroughly sound yet general take
@@Tantacrul Yes, I appreciated the fact that you were exploring actualities and being informative rather than ramming home a "solution". On the other hand, there IS a solution to this mess ... and its name is FRANK ZAPPA!!
4:59 "And in the end, what I hope to achieve is a better kind of understanding."
**sniffs brandy**
"...for a better kind of _person."_
**pours a glass**
"Cheers!"
**drinks straight from the bottle instead**
screen overlay: "Elitism," but in Papyrus font, colored green with a red drop shadow.
Truly a satirical masterpiece.
As a metal head ( and classical music fan ) having a lot of eitists in my genre groups I wanna say this.
Just cause a certain group of people like a genre of music shouldn’t stop you or make you feel uncomfortable listening too it especially now days.
You don’t need to be a king to enjoy orchestras I’m certainly not!
You should listen to music cause you like it not cause others allow you too.
To stop elitism ( particularly classical ) is too ignore the elitists and build up a new appreciation for the music among peers around us
I don't think there are that many elitist in metal, but maybe my metal tastes are too niche to be subject to that. Lot of classical music fans though.
Pop music fans are elitists.
@@eldrago19 There's definitely a vocal lot who will tell you this or that band isn't proper metal.
@@loganmedia1142ive seen people claim that metallica and slipknot arent metal because of their popularity and relative accessibility. its absurd
David bruce's story on this subject, about a conductor who refused to talk to the sound engineer directly, was shocking. I am glad that you are also discussing this topic
what video was this?
@@blehm_7403 This one: ruclips.net/video/ixCZZkooUeM/видео.html
@@blehm_7403 The Problem with Pedestals video.
Lol I had a similar situation where some snob singer refused to let me mic him up because he wasn't singing loud enough and the venue wasn't acoustically right for opera singing. He kept turning his nose up and refusing to talk to the sound crew, and of course we received a complaint email tomorrow morning about how he was barely audible
I know you’re typically not thrilled about leaving long periods between uploads, but if this is the result and it remains viable for you, I’m guessing I’m not alone in saying “cool, I’ll see you in a few months or a year or whatever.” To cover such a sprawling topic and connect so many examples without sacrificing coherence is quite the effort. Bravo!
Seconded
It is clear he know his stuff so we know when he returns he will have a great video essay or just a video, so his long hiatuses are warranted.
It's the video essayists way. The good ones all become more ambitious and their uploads become pretty infrequent.
Pretty sure this comment singlehandedly changed the course of tantacrul's channel
One of the best video essays I've ever watched. I've been on both sides of musical elitism : born in the working class, I went to a little countryside conservatory for 10 years before I moved to a big city and entered the conservatory there. I still don't know how I got in, the expected level was so much higher than what I was able to give.
For 7 more years, I was blasted with elitism : I didn't have the codes, wasn't taught the "right way", didn't like the "right" composers, and this came from the teachers as well as from the students, most of whom were from wealthier environments.
But there I discovered opera, went almost twice a month for 5 years straight, I learnt classical composition, my classical guitar skills went through the roof and so I began to behave as an elitist as well, rejecting music that wasn't written the way I'd been taught it should be.
Even now I'm past these ideas, as I teach music, I find that elitism is everywhere in music, from teachers to students, from working class to bourgeoisie, from small music schools to prestigious conservatories : jazz musicians seeing themselves as the epitomy of music, smarter than the classical twats and groovier than the rock dumbass, the classical snobs see all other form of music as lacking thought and refinement, more popular genres seeing everything else as mental masturbation... But there are plenty of people out there who are ready to share there music with people from other worlds, and we should all be like them.
Good comment. I've recently been enjoying some classical and jazz music on RUclips but noticed the music snobbery in the comments is pretty bad. People writing horribly critical and disparaging comments under the videos of incredibly hard working talented musicians who are creating wonderful music. I've been shocked at how damning people are, as if they themselves could do any better. Hopefully the musicians ignore such comments and keep playing. I personally love music of lots of different genres from jazz to classical, Bollywood, house, Irish music, folk music and gospel.
maybe classical music anti elitists become the new elite every half century
i wish everyone could hear this. at least i got to
Really well said. I had a classmate in highschool tell me it’s too late to learn piano, because they started much earlier than me and had more experience, and played the piano faster. I think another time was that, in a hotel we visited, they didn’t let people play a few calming songs on the piano unless they were true professionals, which kinda sucked. The latter may not be the best example of musical elitism, but it sure annoyed me than anything.
I really, really love music. I don’t think it’s wise for me to pursue it as a career, but I do agree that coming together and sharing things we like, rather than showing bias and anger at things we aren’t as accustomed to, is a much better alternative than elitism ❤️
to me music is like any other form of self expression and art. sure you could do it beautifully and "properly", how an academy would want you to, but you could also use it for expression of emotion or therapy or just fun.
In many parts of the UK and Ireland, there is a strong counter example - the traditional folk music. In both countries, this was composed, performed and danced to by all classes - something which continues to this day. The top performers are admired but not put on a pedestal. As a very modest exponent, I have played and sung with many of the best-known names in sessions and charity gigs - something that would never have happened when I was a classical performer. And yet the music continues to evolve in exciting ways, including all kinds of fruitful cross-genre experiments and collaborations. It's a genre where musicality is valued more than elite virtuoso skills, so almost anyone can participate if they are prepared to put in a little work. As someone who straddles both worlds, traditional music is far less elitist, with more scope for creativity as a performer. I'm not alone in thinking this - there are lessons to be learned.
I'd like to learn more about the classical-folk music division.
I agree with what you say about folk music. Interestingly, I would say British and Irish folk music are a significant antecedent of most modern anglophone popular music (specifically country, bluegrass, rock and everything stemming from them), mixed to a greater or lesser degree with classical and West African music.
I was raised on fiddle music and know a bit of the culture as a result. While it is true that it is much less pretentious, it can also be an opposite kind of insular - you won't find someone at a Weiser jam one day and a concert hall the next. Conscious identification as not stuffy can lead to avoiding everything that seems stuffy. It's even in the name: are you a violinist or a fiddler?
@@jackruwe7142 Here in Scotland I don't recognise this kind of insularity at all.
The traditional and classical genres have always been intertwined. For example many of our greatest fiddlers historically were equally at home performing classical music. I personally know two respected fiddlers who have regular seats in our National Orchestra as well. Nicola Bernedetti is studying fiddling with Aly Bain.
And it goes the other way too - I know a leading fiddler who moved to Glasgow to improve her technique with the tutors at the Royal College. Society balls are usually country dances rather than classical affairs.
A high percentage of the folkies I know around Britain are very eclectic in their tastes and follow and/or play rock, jazz and classical as well.
A couple of years back I was in a high-level session at a festival, with some of the best known English trad players sitting in. Someone led off with a Hot Jazz standard - and 2/3 of the room pitched in with a solo - including the banjo player!
So no - in Britain trad music is not particularly insular.
I might have blinked and missed it, but was 'hipsterism' covered as well. I would argue it is elitism under a different name; listening to a band until they get notoriety and then turning on them and anyone new to the music because they're no longer your little secret. I'd argue that spans classes and can be just as toxic with modern music.
I read an interesting paper/article on classism in electronic music genera identification pertaining to ones ability to do so and the class signifiers involved within. If you’re intrigued I think I found it free via google scholar. I might have kept a pdf. Pm or reply and I will see if I have it if you can’t find it. It was a couple years ago. ;)
@@Schizophonographic I'm interested, where.. can i get it
Gatekeeping, Definitely covered.
By "modern music" I assume you mean "popular music" and are excluding the copious amounts of modern classical music.
That's gatekeepers and something that isn't inherently toxic. Music is often something personal, when what you enjoy listening to suddenly because "mainstream" it devalues it in a way. It becomes less special as it is no longer something that is unique to you as an individual. It isn't elitism, selfish maybe.
"bourgeoise cosplay" had me in stitches.
i prefer patchwerk
reminds me of that episode of Spongebob where Squidward, a fastfood cashier getting paid minimum wage, dresses up in a tailcoat and tophat then goes to an expensive restaurant for his "only night to be fancy."
Same. I think I’m going to quote you on that
Bourgeois. No e.
Me too! Then I started relating the term to the mass marketing of subcultures and genres of music and got weird in my grey squishy skull fillings! Ya know?
This is what we need as musicians and society: this kind of discourse is what gives us tools to deconstruct what we are taught and what we do, and to challenge misconceptions and simple and reassuring cliches.
I am a pianist with a classical training with a fairly decent career (just won the Arthur Rubinstein competition) and I can see the industry from inside, so I can asure you that many of the problems come from within, and THOSE are the people who are the hardest to convince: the ones whose identities (and business model) are based on elitism. It's not that they "don't know" that they are being elitist. It's that they WANT to keep that class difference.
So if you challenge that and try to change the concert model and the industry, surely they will still be able to enjoy "the greats" (nobody is taking that away from them), but they won't be able to reafirm their superiority...
And the worst is that, as a professional artist, you feel a complice when "playing the game"...
It's a strange, contradicting world we live in...
Again, congratulations for the incredible video 😍
The entire point of the video is to make you feel sorry for the things you've accomplished. It's 100% bullshit. There's nothing wrong with excellence being the top concern of the classical world. There's a history to preserve there. Jazz has an extremely competitive culture. I wonder if the jazz musicians will be asked to apologize?
@@tombailey1059 At which point does the video "make you feel sorry for the things you've accomplished"? the entire point of it was more akin to takle the problem of elitism and a false forcedly upheld image in music
Using the bright green Papyrus font for Elitism in the beginning was really creative.
HOLD UP. The sentence, "Advertising really is the closest vantage point from which we can peer into the abyss." is a master quote. Well done!
I loved the "Puts the 'Ew' in 'New Age". That one was brilliant.
For me it’s “you dirty bastard”.
I love how accurate that is. And i did an undergad in advertising :)
Funniest thing I've heard on RUclips in months
I do wish he clarified what's the abyss
what also surprises me is how people say they don't like classical music (or maybe just as occasional background sound during study) and at the same time seem to love film scores and game scores that involve symphonic orchestration. i'd say you're halfway there then, to loving classical music.
Classical music, to me, feels robotic and void of emotion as an orchestra drowns out any individual. Film scores while also orchestral feel emotional as they attach themselves to a story and characters.
@@ethan6627 "robotic and void of emotion"
Have you ever listened to something from later than 1800?
@TwoSet Pearls In this specific comment we are talking about orchestras. When one plays in an orchestra, one plays what and how one is told to. It is no longer a form of expression, the orchestras goal is to become a robot to play as they rehearsed together to play something to be as accurate as possible like a robot. Void of all emotion because an individuals emotion cannot be felt in an listening to an orchestra. Comparing to an orchestral film scores is illogical as film scores are attached to stories and characters who we care about independently from the music, the music should enhance these feelings but people can enjoy the orchestral film score music because of what it is attached to.
@@ethan6627 Interesting how you experience that, I feel it's much different.
First of all, orchestral pieces that weren't written to directly accompany a story often have a more abstract idea behind it and in my experience there's often a dramatic element in it. At least I see tension, emotion, movement, dialogue, jokes. It's more abstract but it's certainly there, for me at least. Maybe because of my background as a dancer. In minimal music it's the most abstract but even that has a dramatic arch.
The second thing I disagree with is that an orchestra has no emotion because each musician is a different person. For me the magic of playing together is that you seek out a common expression/interpretation of the piece while each player is allowed their private emotions about what they play. It's very far from emotionless/robotic for me.
Third thing; even IF the orchestra were reduced to nothing more than a machine with many arms, then there is still the conductor "playing" this orchestra. They do a lot more than keep the tempo. They certainly have an interpretation and use their emotions to give the piece a dramatic layer.
I'm sorry you can't experience the beauty of symphonies and similar because of the reasons you list. I don't know what you have actually heard - maybe you just don't know what's out there and you heard one bad rendition of a mediocre piece and gave up. You're allowed to feel "meh" about orchestral stuff of course. But I have to disagree about all of it lacking emotion or story.
@chilanya I feel like I should clarify I do think their are emotions to be felt from classical orchestral pieces, but rather, I don't personally experience any. About your second point, when playing in an orchestral setting, the "common expression" is planned, hence why I call it robotic. Touching on your third, I think conductors are part of why I view classical music as elitist. It becomes about one man inserting his will and emotions onto the orchestra. He is the authority figure in that sense. Also, at least in the US (not certain elsewhere, but pretty sure this is commonplace), playing in a classical setting has a chair system. This makes a hierarchy baked into the orchestral itself, which naturally breeds elitism.
I grew up in a small, rural town that just so happened to have a classical guitar teacher around. So I was classically trained, and loved classical music, but also grew up loving rock, pop, and all the rest of it because that's what people in my small, poor town listened to. I always saw them as equal. Different types of music pursuing different goals. And there was good and bad music in all of them. When I moved to the city to go to music school, I met all these city kids that exclusively played/listened to classical or jazz, and their elitism was astounding. Really snobby, really arrogant people. Definitely a classist aspect which I found really gross. I always get my back out when I see people shit on rock and pop especially. It often comes across as a "those yucky poor people" argument.
Yea and those same elitist snobs usually couldn't tell you a single thing about the origins of those genres they turn their noses up to and how important it all is and how through history they are all interconnected. Except country... just kidding.
I think it often comes from teenage "I'm so unique everyone else is so basic" shit too. I was definitely like that. Would be really funny if you could see all of someone's RUclips comments like you can on reddit.
It can also work the other way around. I grew up in a household that was filled with almost every genre of music because to my father music was just music. At school I was made fun of for liking classical and jazz so I stopped listening to them until I left school.
For me, one of the most liberating things i've done Is to stop thinking about music in terms of genres, i have no problems jumping from artista to artist depending just on the mood. Donna Summer, Can, Everything but the girl. I love them in their own way, but sadly everyone need to put themselves in a box, You like metal? How daré you to move your feel to the rhythms of Earth wind and fire? ,Did Elthon John make you think of that special person? Don't you even consider to feel depressed and gloomy with Cocteau twins! Gimme a break!
@@lamecasuelas2 The word "genre" itself drips with pretentiousness. It seemed to slip into peoples pop music discussion in the 90's. It's right up there with "curating" playlists in terms of trying to make things important that really aren't. I think it's used by people who take their own musical tastes a little too seriously.
I think you'll appreciate this little anecdote, Tantacrul: an earlier time in my musical life was briefly spent in an experimental thrash punk band in Cambridge Massachusetts, maybe two-and-a-half generations removed from the Sex Pistols. One of our originals was a cacophony of headbanging drums, distorted atonal guitar and bass riffs, where the lead singer just screamed "Milton Babbitt sucks" over and over again for about two minutes.
Haha
Just a few days ago I was thinking "huh, I wonder what's up with Tantacrul" and here we are! A 1 hour video. What a pleasant surprise.
Well, HERE I AM!
I wondered this a few hours ago
A surprise, to be sure, but a welcome one
@@denisarharov7832 Definitely
i was just wondering whats up with ethai1
i honestly think the biggest influence that could, and for me does, drag classical music from its elitist associations is video games. i mean, just listening to the hollow knight ost can give you an entirely different outlook on all sorts of classical styles of music.
Movies can do the same, the most iconic example in my mind would be Duel of the Fates from Star Wars Ep1.
YES!!! YESS!!!!!!! Soundtracks are, without a doubt, the closest thing you’ll have to classical music aside from actual classical music we'll have in a few centuries! I am so glad that other people see that too
Absolutely, I feel like I would not love classical music as much as I do if not for vidio games.
@@memoriavetusta3908 Plenty of people listen to OSTs actively when they are not playing the game. :)
@@memoriavetusta3908 Bro's being elitist on the comments of a vido about how elitism is bad
I also encountered this at conservatory only slightly more modern twist on it. I was in the first class of electronic music artists at that conservatory and I experienced first hand how teachers and musicians looked down on us.
One time passionately explained to a teacher how I thought electronic music was a modern form of composing. He looked at me with a frown and said “leave music up to the musicians”, as if we were nothing more than glorified engineers.
Another teacher went on an entire rant about how electronic music is not “real” music because we didn’t play instruments and “just pressed play”.
So damn demotivating as a young impressionable aspiring artist.
Urg. I've heard this a lot too and given quite the lecture back at my lecturers :)
Problem is they have never heard the really interesting stuff and have just based their opinion on television or the top 10 on the radio.
Ooph that's rough to have to deal with. And of course, based on pure ignorance of both the creation of electronic music and the variety of composition that fall under that massive umbrella.
How recent was your experience? I ask because my hope is that in the last couple decades that is falling by the wayside more and more. But I am not holding my breath, unfortunately.
@@bricelory9534 Oh, around 2013/2014
@@bricelory9534 Twelve years ago. From what I have seen it is not much better now.
@@LesterBrunt ooph. I guess it's too much to ask for snobbery to go away any time soon
I think you hit something important with your discussion of Imposters.
That really is what a lot of Gatekeeping is. That there is a culture, aim and goal behind a community, weather it's a hobby, artform and something else, and when people choose to join tat community with either the intentional, or unintentional goal of changing that community, it is, completely understandably, scary. I think a lot of cries about gatekeeping are more about that then people would like to admit, and less about arbitrarily hating new members of the community.
I don’t remember the last time I’ve laughed so hard at something so educational…
“This book is too sad. Delete half the alphabet” 🤣🤣🤣
literally came back to comment about this again and found my own comment lolz
I actually think that it makes sense. You cannot really make touching music with one note, can you? So if you extrapolate that in the other direction, the more notes you have to choose from, the more potential there is for beautiful music. (And the "bad" music as well)
@aleksakocijasevic6613 The less letters, the less potential for sad books. But removing half of the letters also unrecognizably mars a book.
For me what cracked me up was this quote at 3:08 by Beethoven. It’s like something a goofy supervillain would say 😂 and I’m sure Beethoven isn’t that evil, just goofy. The quote is funny for me.
Or maybe, he said it out of anger? It’s hard to tell through text.
What an interesting quote ❤🎉 not that I’m making fun of him, just the out of context quote.
I know it's a minor point in your video, but the dubstep thing is genuinely sad though, not because the music changed, but because the time period where dubstep was like that original form was incredibly short, maybe 2 or 3 years, and no new name or subgenre was created. I was there when it happened, and it was quite incredible how this totally unique genre did a total 180 leaving no trace of its former self within such a short amount of time. That didn't happen with jungle and drum and bass, and it didn't happen with Jazz either. It died far far faster than any other musical subculture I've ever encountered.
do you have names or links tho? Like to be able to listen right now? I got really curious (it is pretty sad)
@@charliebeaux4059 this song is a good representation. ruclips.net/video/fRbO_Q2spCU/видео.html
@@Autumnnnnn1 thanks:)
More like 4-5 years before the buzz saw wobble bass stuff became the common theme and when I stopped buying dubstep records. I believe everyone was calling the US stuff 'brostep' on the Dubstep forum.
I know some people really liked dubstep, but most people didn't. It was harsh to the ears. It was as pleasant as scraping a chalkboard to a beat while a dial up modem had a seizure.
Most people didn't like it, including many musicians, so it died.
Such a well thought out argument. I used to have the classical snobbish attitude my music teachers passed onto me like a bad stink. I'm glad when people put out into the world calls for empathy like this.
I feel you... my piano teacher always made a clear distinction between pieces and compositions that were "gut-bürgerlich" and "schlecht-bürgerlich" (German words that loosely translate to "good-bourgeois" and "bad-bourgeois"). The "good" always referred to the more traditional classic compositions while "bad" described more modern and perhaps mainstream pieces (in particular Ludovico Einaudi, Yiruma etc.). Took me a long time to get out of this mindset...
@@marafortune3713 Wow thank you for reminding me of Yiruma, haven't heard his music for a long time! :D
When I was at music college I was always amazed that the classical music students looked down their noses at those of us who were more into commercial music. Was always fun to hand them a chord sheet for a 12 bar blues in B flat and watch them completely go to pieces.... 🤣
The astonishing breadth of your examination here. I particularly love your singling out of Andre Rieu. Pretension gathers around anything that has the ability to be sublime - food or music. It's good to just to concentrate on the music without the ads, vids or social purpose or noise or snobbery around it - eat, listen, appreciate, pray ... or something like that.
I'm so appreciative that you of all people decided to take on this topic. No other creator on RUclips would talk about this topic by going back to Ancient China of all places, and I really appreciate your willingness to analyze (and sometimes condemn where you feel necessary) the attitudes while trying to understand the people. You add so much value with your essays. Thank you so much.
“From time to time it’s a bit of fun to listen to a passionate person go on a tirade.” I see you know why we’re all here
Thank you so much for making this! As a classically trained opera singer, this is something that I've thought about a lot. We of the "Classical" tradition try to build a wall around our music, to keep out the unwashed "Pop" masses; we prefer to think of Mozart as existing within a different reality than The Sex Pistols. Occasionally we'll lower ourselves and mingle among the proletariat, like when classical singers put "Yesterday" in our recitals: we act like we're doing Paul McCartney a favor by singing it in an operatic style, even though it clashes horribly with the style it was ACTUALLY written in.
But really, the idea of a Pop/Classical dichotomy is no more factual than the Baroque/Classical/Romantic eras; these are fictional concepts that we invent to help make reality more digestible.
mozart is too mainstream anyway.
obscure russian composers who never got fame outside of their country is where its at.
jk
✌👉 The Connections (2021) [short documentary] 💖
I wholeheartedly applaud your choice to use using green papyrus with a mauve drop shadow when talking about elitism. This joke has many levels, and I am here for each and every one.
As someone who listens to both classical and heavy metal, I've always wanted to see a sort of thunderdome of elitism between the hardcore listeners of both.
There are a lot of metalheads that love classical music I find. I can't say the vice versa is true however ahaha
@@platoscatboy9772 Call me crazy but, appreciating these two genres myself, it led me to wonder about the frontier between "musical genre" and sound esthetics, for lack of better words. By "sound esthetics", I'm mostly thinking about instrumentation.
I mean, listening to Schubert's Erlkönig, to me, and especially for the first time, almost felt like listening to metal. And while I'm not going to pretend heavy metal existed in the nineteenth century, there is also the question of videogame music sometimes refered to as a musical genre, especially going back to when it was played by relatively limited soundchips. Yet it was not hard to find rock and heavy metal in disguise among other genres, played by those soundchips, So, even today, I'm still not sure if I should consider chiptune as a genre.
@@thepulseman7154 Chiptune is about specifically and purposely using the sounds from old video game systems, while I think video game music has often been classical and rock pieces that happened to be limited to using those sounds. It’s more of a matter of “because we can” vs “because we can’t” that makes those separate.
@@darkstarr984 Yes. Though in both case you can either be really close to another genre or do something that's not so easy to classify, so I do think chiptune at least can be considered a valid genre.
Or hip hop and electronica.
it's amazing how elitist some get about the "other" when they're basically as close to outright musical brethren as exists in the world. How many other genres share such tight and lasting kinship from a stylistic and production standpoint, only for their fans to so harshly shun each other...?
The explanation of how classical music is presented as boring was so good! There is classical music I like but hate to hear it incidentally in ads/TV/film, and I now realise that it's probably because they only ever play the recognisable theme and not the actually fun but less catchy experimental parts. It's like someone only telling the set up to a joke because they think the audience can't handle the punchline.
Check out names like Ligeti and Schoenberg
Knock knock
👏 👏 👏
It's an ad, and they're using classical music to evoke emotion to get you to buy a product. Everyone should hate it.
I love classical music but i think people Should never be blocked in one style, Im Classic fan but i still some time try ear another still and i respect best of all different style❤
@@kekansaru I remember when they used the opening of Beethoven V to sell toilet bowl cleaner. Ba Ba Ba BUMMMMM - flush.....
Musical taste is intimately linked to self-image. People that imagine themselves as trendy, energetic, and adventurous will gravitate towards very different music than people that want to be seen as cultured, stalwart, and refined. Rejection of music is, more often than not, a rejection of the people that like the music instead of the music itself.
True, but the elitist issue is when that self image link pushes too far and without other accompaniments. An elitists has built their identity around something so much that they have a perceived interest to protect. Meaning their ego is so fragile that a new style/direction of something they previously associated is a threat to who they are. So they build walls around the “real” genre in an effort to protect their identity, the art/music.
@@pro-v7500 Agreed, and even more to the point of this video, when someone can back up that gatekeeping with social and financial power.
@TheRationalPI It is possible you are correct, but what about people who don't have any musical taste, who don't care about music? While I don't reject any music I do not care for any music either, for me music is just noise, not bad not good, just noise, for the most part background noise, that I filter out.
I really don't think what you have stated is anywhere near true. People that "listen" to music superficially might link it to self image, but anyone who listens to music for the music itself, will slowly but steadily build a music library that is like a neural network of music derived from music they liked first (for example, teens that listened to Nirvana growing up might start to like Sonic Youth and eventually start listening to Velvet Underground and from there jump to Bob Dylan and end up listening to Leonard Cohen) notwithstanding whatever they might think of themselves or any kind of self image they have. As in the example, Nirvana listeners are pretty much different from Leonard Cohen listeners regarding self/public image. What you call "musical taste", in your idea, is rather just a "musical pose".
@@HimmelGanger I mean that would mean you are not a music “elitist”, or rather you don’t fall victim to the trappings of music elitism.
But this dynamic isn’t exclusive to music. Anything someone strongly identifies with, typically passions and hobbies, is where you will run into this dynamic.
After you asked me to thumbs up at the end, I spam clicked the thumbs up button a few dozen times to simulate applause. In the middle of your movement, no less.
God I'm such a rebel
I dressed up in my sundays best to watch this video. Tantacrul is a channel for the elite after all, plebs not welcome. Dressing properly is the least a viewer can do
I only accept black shoes here. Gotta keep up appearances.
Dude, the material trappings of clothes inhibit your spirit from connecting fully with the fundamental vibrations of the universe and it blocks Tantacrul's resonance in your amygdala. Feed your head.
Are crocs ok?
@@Babblegum As long as they are black 🤔
@@berend_dijk fair enough can't be getting too egalitarian
You know, after watching this, I learned:
1. Why I feel so detached from classical music.
2. Why I dislike songs that are popular today.
3. Why I should be shamed for playing Einaudi as a senior performance for my practical Music 1 exam.
You could rearrange something less generic but more modern from other genres, stuff like Dream Theater or Rush
@@13AndreFalcao666 i fucking love dt
No one should feel ashamed for playing or listening to Einaudi. To shame someone for that is the definition of elitism.
Play some Olivia Rodriggo piano songs and see how far that gets you
@@thedragonofthewest5789 hell yeah dream theater is awesome
This reminds me of when my music teacher called pop "simple music for simple people" and complained about how nobody listens to classical music anymore.
Does this pop also include rock, reggae and soul?
Same happened with my music teacher
@@lemsip207 no, it's a separate genre
Your music teacher was 100% correct.
Simple I am!
I wish more people would just listen to all types of music. They're all extremely interesting and (mostly) beautiful in their own way.
There it is! There it is!
Except modern rap. That shit is trash.
shut up
A wish hard to make true even with an army of genies.
I would be all for it... if I could do it myself. I had a classical music education in a musical school for 5 years. I will listen to most things from classical music to metal and hip hop. But I can't listen to jazz.
Yes, let's force people into listening to ear-raping garbage like dubstep or mumble rap. That will surely turn out well.
Wow. I'm from Poland, and it's astonishing how different things are here. I'm from a rather poor family, but I went to a public music school, and my mother and sister are professional musicians.
I remember it was difficult to buy instruments on our own, but the school made sure we could at least rent some while we were saving up. The education was completely free. And there were tons and tons of poor kids like us everywhere over the school, it always felt completely normal. (Maybe that's partially caused by the fact that their parents were often also musicians and the job just doesn't pay well lol). Later my sister earned two degrees at our local music university (available publicly in a 300k town) and she never had to pay anything for that either.
It's just so bizarre for me to imagine how getting musical education would feel like in the UK. I've been working for a British company for a few years now, and it's still surprising to me when I learn about some new kind of classism completely ruining yet another aspect of British society. : /
I went to a UK private school in Years 9 -13. There was no music classes at all. We had an extra-curricular optional after-school activity of studying Music Theory, but unless you were already educated in Music you would be told to GTFO.
Same In Hungary, interest is the only thing you need here to get into classical music.
Same in Austria. Even if you don't want to go to a musical school, you can still learn an instrument in state sponsored music extracurricular schools for like 100€ per year.
It's similar in the US, however the focus is less on classical music. The tradition of band being in every high school in America was established by John Philip Sousa, who had a background in marching. As a result, string instruments are uncommon in high school. In fact, at least in the part of the country where I'm from, high school jazz bands are far more common than full orchestras with string instruments. Although marching is the origin of American high school bands, most marching bands will play arrangements of pop songs for football half time shows rather than traditional marches in concert. During the winter and spring (when the football season is over), bands will play arrangements of classical tunes for bands without a string section and/or tunes written specifically for American high school bands in concert, and will play the same marching arrangements from the fall during events like assemblies and basketball games.
Your profile picture looks like Martha Argerich.
The way you casually mention laying siege to André Rieu’s castle in between education reform, drinking spirits and cancelling HBO subscriptions is absolutely fantastic. The rest of the video was too, highly informative and well researched. Thank you :)
Unfortunately it was also a clear case of snobbery end elitism in action. Look at these plebs "enjoying" classical music.
Rieu is the only thing I disagree with in this video. Sure, he lays it on thick, but he basically respects the music, and he is squarely in the tradition of Vienna salon music making. He also gets tons of bonus points from me for involving local musicians from wherever he is touring. Find that video of him getting a 4 year old kid to play some violin concerto with that orchestra.
I find that something very similar happens in painting. I did some social service (500 hrs, mandatory in my country) at my local museum, and it was a really revealing insight into how the world of art operates against how I had seen it operate in my digital arts environment. For starters, the museum itself was a great metaphor: On the upper floor, you had all the antique pieces, all of it religious. They took all the precautions you'd figure antique paintings get (special refrigerated rooms, guards 24/7, no flash photos allowed), but aside from that, every tour would treat these as the pinnacle of artistic achievement: It's what was shown first, what was explained in most detail, and what most time was spent on. The ground floor was devoted to a contemporary art collection owned by a big conglomerate, and was treated with much less decor. The tour guides would spend, at most, 10 minutes here, quickly go over what their scripts said about the pieces, and swiftly move on. People were barely given any time to look at these pieces. Not that it matters, because people didn't wanna look at them, but not one of the guides ever try to even help people understand what they were looking at. Imagine that: An art museum with total disinterest in getting people into new art.
However, the lower floor was not free of guilt themselves. On one occasion, I ended up giving one of the curators and one of the organizers a ride back from an event to the museum. It came up that I had been doing a series of illustrations, and they enthusiastically asked to see what I had. However, the mood changed drastically when they realized these were all digital. I distinctly remember the organizer saying "I just don't understand digital media, it's so hard to use and understand" in the snootiest tone I've ever heard a human achieve without a monocle on their face. The pair started talking to each other, and effectively ignoring me. I later told one of my colleagues about it, and he told me this was very common. This organizer, as well as most curators there, considered digital art to be a bastard form of art, and in fact once kicked up a giant fuss over an exhibition that came once that was completely digital. Can't imagine what these people would think of 3d printed sculptures. It doesn't matter to these people how a piece you made looks (perish the thought that you'd judge a painting by how it looks!), but _how_ you made it.
This is a very strange thing for them to do, when you then consider the way selling art operates. In most art galleries, it is an unspoken rule that any painting you sell must be sold for double the amount you sold your last one (or at least, this is what I was told). Otherwise, it's a failure. So, I once took a look at what was being sold at the museum, and saw a massive portrait of a man, done in ink. Amazing detail, exquisite use of light, and it was being sold for about 3000 usd. Right next to it, a much smaller, more abstract piece, with a lot of texture and a lot of earth tones everywhere. I'm sure it had an interesting read, but it felt, in comparison to the one next to it, like less care was put into it. I could be entirely wrong, but it had that impression. And that one was being sold for 7000 usd. Entirely based on the fact that the artist had sold another one before for half that.
I'm not a fan of digital art also. I'm more into Renaissance and Baroque paintings
Definitely elitism in art which is such a paradox as art should be for everyone and one form or artist should not be held up as the pinnacle of art or superior to another etc. Of course you're going to have really good artists and not so good artists but at the end of the day it should be up to the viewer, not the institutions, corporations and high society-similar to what happened when impressionism made waves and was once thought of as bad. There are levels of skill but also levels of something harder to capture within art (see aleksandra waliszewska for instance). If one looks purely at skill then I feel like the fall into the trap of 'oil and detail is the pinnacle'
Each form of media has it's own challenges and your right about 3d printing. I think people see digital art as easy when really it's main strength is that of iteration, having more then one copy and undo. I wonder if it's because you can copy, duplicate and make a piece of art widespread for a lot of people that some in the art world see it as worthless. As we know quite a lot of art is bought up so rich folk can commit a form of tax evasion. So they might ask is an artwork worth less when there is more then one version of it? Having one tangible copy raises it's value more. Art is ever evolving and I love it so but gosh I feel so detached from that world as an artist.
You get similar elitism in Physics research, too.
I think it's just a human thing
The SNOBBERY dismissing digital art is insane. "Oh you push a button and use one of those expensive programmed brushes and the brush does all the work for you"
I want to know how these people think physical brushes and techniques work. Sheer ignorance.
Its not that digital art cant be inspiring. Its that sadly many digital artists are simply uninspired.
Same as modern music. The industry is just so oversaturated and its too easy to get into.
There are still many great artists out there but today it is harder than ever to even find out about them.
Its also too easy to reproduce digital art.
A real painting can not be reproduced ever, even if you created an identical in visuals copy. Digital art is infinitely reproducable so it is in and of itself not very unique.
Artists have tried getting around this with nfts but its too much of a gimmic.
I honestly dont think digital art will ever be respected like physical art.
Even though I myself enjoy digital art and even like making my own now and then.
I personally think its just a tough medium and since its already kinda soulless you have to work even harder to make something inspiring.
The Impostor Phenomenon section really resonated with me, since I am both a classical pianist and a contemporary composer. I even see it outside of music, it happens in fanbases of games, shows, and even the internet. Almost every time something becomes mainstream it's purpose and form becomes completely unrecognizable from its roots. Take Undertale back during its release and compare it to the height of its popularity, or Breaking Bad and it's current fanbase.
Sub Cultures are sadly so fragile.
I likely actively listen to music the least compared to most people I know, yet this video somehow hit so different.
Thank you, for one of the best video essays I have ever seen.
Thanks very much! I really appreciate it.
I went to university for music. Trumpet performance. It was rampant at my school. I showed up in 97 in a Slayer shirt. Saw my share but also took part to an extent. But years later, I had a sort of epiphany. Just play. I used to get bent out of shape about pop like Nsync and so on. Then I realized, I'm not the target for that stuff. Has nothing to do with me. People listen for all sorts of reasons. Some people want to deeply experience music. Some just want to dance. Each is as valid as the rest. Just because I listen to music a certain way, doesn't mean others have to. Once I understood this, I just played, with far less debris in the way.
Yep
I disagree, but I also agree. Sometimes you just aren't the target audience and sometimes I'll judge your music.
It is more than okay to enjoy it and I wouldn't want to take away from that, but just like his Bob Dylan example, I'm going to point out that Taylor Swift is not the pinnacle of the 2010s and 2020s
there is no "pinnacle" of music for any generation, for some people Taylor Swift was their perfect artist, for others it could have been some guy they saw playing the guitar in the subway because being art it is almost completely subjective@@10thletter40
slayer 🤘
Welcome to sonder
It's worth mentioning most traditional Chinese music didn't survive the cultural revolution. Most "Traditional Chinese" most people hear is usually Guoyue orchestra, which applies western music theory to Chinese instruments.
Other genres like Nanguan and various local opera forms that used to be the pop music of the era have only recently really started to bloom again. Ironically, the cultural revolution served to create a new elitism in Chinese music
@Tianrang Bu What you've both said is very interesting! If you don't mind, could you give me a super simplified and fast overview of the different genres and tell me the names of some of the practicing musicians/musical pieces? I'd love to buy a physical/digital record and listen, seeing I'll probably never see it live ahaha
@Tianrang Bu I would like to also request that you share some sources for this music.
@Tianrang Bu Thx
say what you will but I highly doubt it's literally _just_ the cultural revolution that bricked a lot of traditional stuff; the period leading up where everyone was investing ridiculous amounts of time and effort into fast-industrializing [including extremely unfortunate famines] and the general period of decline before that probably didn't help, whereas plenty of superstitions and old habits have survived right through in rural areas [not cities tho]
@Tianrang Bu Thank you! I'll surely check all of them out, I may poke you again if I have a question :)
What I've learned is that elitism is much more of a thing on the Internet, if you go out and meet other real people everyone is like "yeah I fucking suck at it, still fun though" it's so true for art and programming too.
It's actually quite an eye opener realising "wow, even if I'm good at this thing, it doesn't mean jack shit if it takes me 3 years to complete a project perfectly when most people would do it in 2 and it works exactly the same with less polish." same with getting a driver's license too lmao, sorry my old driving instructor but I turned out fine.
There is definitely elitism in person. An example is the attitude of classical musicians to videogame music. Some of the best classical pieces written in the past 20 years have been from videogames, but most producers refuse to allow the music to be played alongside more classic pieces. Even when they do play it they get separated into classical events and videogame events. I even once saw a band master at the end of a videogame music show announce to the crowd "now you have heard us play this you should come hear us play some of the good stuff". That belittling isn't required and is commonplace.
@@kredonystus7768I attended a symphonic musical concert where all sorts of themes from all kinds of different video games were played. The conductor at the end then said to the younger people in the audience something like, "I hope we could show you that symphonic concerts can be entertaining too." Bless his heart.
@@macskasbogre133Haha, that's awesome
@@kredonystus7768 just out of curiosity, how many classical pieces written in the past 20 years have you heard that didn't come from a video game?
@@kredonystus7768 Reading about this experience of yours a few hours after listening to one of the Dragon Quest symphonic suites definitely feels pretty sad.
That kenny g bit really resonated with me.
The sudden boom in shanty popularity on tik tok was entirely spearheaded by one guy, who wasn't doing a bad job, but his way of doing it convinced a whole load of people that that was how that music sounded.
It would have threatened it in the same way that kenny g threatened jazz. However that's not what happened because sea shanties and their popularity were, for most people, a trend. For this I am glad, however some damage was still done.
I also used to listen to Sea Shanties before it was popular :) Though I would be amiss if I did not point out that there area around Bergen, Norway, did modern kinds of versions on old sea shanties. The main man there actually has a doctorate in Sea Shanties...
I can imagine nowadays the words "cultural appropriation" would have been thrown around regarding Kenny G. Here's a white musician taking a traditionally African American music genre and creating a new style that many derided as bland and uninspiring. The arguments pretty much write themselves. Not that I personally have any issue with that, but I can imagine lots of people would.
Arguably, and admirably, Nathan Evans didn't become the 'face' of sea shanties, which could have happened.
It was funny though to read some of the comments left by Tiktok kids saying, 'This song is so catchy! How is it so catchy?' and I even Read one saying, 'Why would sailors make such catchy tunes?' 😄
@@deadlyrobot5179 >If it wasn't for people like Limp bizkit and Skrillex Metal and EDM would be a couple of dead genres
Tell me you don't know jack shit about metal or EDM without saying it.
another example of this, also involving tiktok, is phonk
ruclips.net/video/UAV7hnCB_ZE/видео.html
here's a video that i watched about it a few days ago, reminds me a lot of the progression of dubstep
Basically, you've perfectly articulated why hate having to admit when I genuinely _do_ prefer an artist's early stuff. I don't want it to mean "this thing sucks now, and so do the people who like it." [Band I Like] has branched out, taken a chance, incorporated new production, expanded their art, evolved, etc. The new sound is not objectively bad, nor are people who like it stupid for doing so. It just ain't my vibe.
I feel the same way. But let's think this through.
This video is great but is it really that elitism as a word associated with something wrong is the actual act of putting things on a scale of "which is better than the other" and saying it out loud? Is it really that any expressed preference in anything is elitism?? If it is then I'm very elitist.
I mean maybe you mean that it would be bad because elitism ultimately results in conflict. In that case, I guess we can never get rid of conflict
@@danskeli4016 personal taste and opinion are normal. Meaning it’s not elitist to subjectively dislike something, nor is it elitist to discuss those dislikes. The elitism comes into play when you can state your subjective opinion as objective fact, typically by pushing one thing down to make your preference rise in top. (By “you” I meant the metaphorical you, my bad)
In the end, elitism comes down to identity. An elitist has attached their identity to their preference, so when a different/new direction is taken they feel threatened. Their ego is so fragile that they build walls around their preference in an effort to protect their identity.
There is something about those first 3 albums. I'm not sure if it's incompetence, or youthful energy. I find the bands that get passed that either tour constantly and write while they're on the road.. or they really mature as composers.
The nuance ppl who like and dislike things all need
Writing "Elitism" with Papyrus font. Beautiful.
"misdirected sadness at the loss of one's community or identity" or atleast percieving of change or new fandom as it, is more or less the FOUNDATION of gate keeping
In my fourth year of music theory in college there was 3 or so pages towards the end that described American classical music (jazz) as hard to listen to, and it implored the reader to not feel bad if they don't understand it and that playing it was reserved to a select few. This was after the chapters on serialism and 12-tone composition. (Which had no such warning, of course.)
I called it out in class, and it felt pretty good.
@@DeftRiddle I know a lot of people don't like jazz, but I would guess more people like some form of jazz than serialism. I know "some form of jazz" is vague, but it's changed over 100 years and evolved over time. Also, I think it's pretty funny that you said you'd prefer Kenny G over any type of jazz when Kenny G is smooth jazz.
I’m glad you felt good.
My gosh, how long ago was that? This was SENIOR level music theory?!
@@RianeBane The 2017 school year (either fall 2016 or spring 2017)
What a confusingly dismissive statement for a formal music education program to make. How could this be considered educating people?
Really got me thinking about how much of my dislike of classical music is due to me just not enjoying it versus me not liking the elitism I've been told it represents. This was a well spent hour. :)
The way I got into classical music was the same way it seems people get into alcohol: it's a taste you have to continuously expose yourself to in order to find what you like, and even then, it still might not be your thing (though I hope you find at least a couple pieces you like, just because I know it means a lot to me now and I want to share that joy with you). I hated most classical music until my parents nudged me into playing the french horn, and then I HAD to listen to it all the time-and over time, I found the composers that spoke to me and the musical ideas that I liked. I guess, if you want to genuinely take a dive and find stuff you like, I'd advise you to listen to a bunch of composers all over the spectrum; there are multiple "eras" of classical music that all sound completely different. For example, I don't really care for Baroque music (so Bach, some early Mozart; the only exception for me personally is Vivaldi), but I love the Romantic/Impressionist era (think Debussy, Tchaikovsky, Saint-Saëns, Mahler). I don't like more modern classical music (especially 20th century, 12 tone/atonal, "musique concret" stuff), but Schoenberg's "Song of the Wood Dove" fucks severely.
If this was completely unwarranted, I apologize.
@@salmonandsoup Definitely agree. How much of musical taste works is through repetition. Pop songs are instantly liked because they're often derived from the same handful of chord progressions with simple, repetitious, familiar melodies. This is also why they have a short shelf life.
There are many classical pieces I didn't much enjoy the first sitting through but love now, especially when I pick up on themes, variations, modulations etc. It's brilliant and brilliantly complex and intended for live performance. I don't mean that you need to have a particular IQ to "understand" it, moreso that it simply takes more time to become familiar.
It's similar with food -- you tend to have to try more complex and strange dishes on a few occasions to really determine if you like them or not.
PS: Schoenberg was a genius. The guy had already mastered tonal work before playing with atonal music, something so very many snobby musical academics in the atonal field can't lay claim to.
@@RohannvanRensburg Oh no I understand that Schoenberg fucks severely, I just don't like atonal music, so "Song of the Wood Dove" is the piece I like most by him. My brain hates extended periods of like. Wretched Dissonance, which is all that atonal music sounds like to my brain. It's just as unsettling as the Uncanny Valley to my ears (and I say that bc I'm autistic and am sensitive to certain sounds, not cuz atonal music sucks).
@@salmonandsoup I hate atonal music too, other than when it's used for horror purposes or centered around tonal music (think the Bioshock soundtrack). What I mean is that Schoenberg's tonal music kicked ass and he was a master. Guerre Lieder and Verklarte Nacht are amazing. Many atonal composers don't have actual chops.
@@RohannvanRensburg Chord progression condemnation is one of the dumbest avenues of condemning music. Beethoven's Septet was "pop" back in the day, so much so that Beethoven wished it was never written. Eine Kleine Natchmusik didn't have bold chord progressions, but it never gets old. The melodies flow despite conforming to conventional chord progressions of their day.
As an American, “the left is coming for Beethoven” is the most American thing I’ve heard in a while.
Something to consider: FL studio trial version is free, there are hundreds of music theory tutorials on RUclips, and millions of songs for free on Spotify. So there’s not much opportunity to gatekeep listening to or making music.
What I think attracts a lot of people to André Rieu and his tours is the simple fact that the concert is made for the audience and their enjoynment.
The audience is encouraged to sing, clap and even dance during the performance and this interactive feature is always present. Thus people who sort of like classical music (but do not like sitting and staring at the performers for hours) can get a really enjoyable experience out of it - if they were to get up and dance on a more "classical" classical music concert, it would be a faux pas that would only make them frowned upon - but here, it's the norm.
A parallel question which has struck me about jazz (and applies to classical music as well) is, "when did it stop being fun?"
The mental image I think many people have of jazz today is the cooly aloof musician-in-black, weaving an art inaccessible to the uninitiated, and movies like Whiplash portray an (almost literally) deadly seriousness. Watching a movie like Stormy Weather from 1943, by contrast, you have Fats Waller at the piano swapping quips with Lena Horne, Cab Calloway slinking and strutting to the Jumping Jive, the Nicholas Brothers with that amazing dance number....
An answer to your question I came up with is "when jazz musicians became insufferable about it." I've met a number of jazz musicians. Most of them are sweet folks...but that loud minority...they really suck all of the fun out of it. I came to this conclusion realizing that I had none of the same knots in my back when listening to a Charlie Parker recording that I would otherwise have attending a jazz gig and conversing with other musicians and self-proclaimed coinsures. It was really eye-opening. I've been avoiding the genre not because of the music, but because of a few negative experiences I've had with a minority of jazz folks. Isn't that sad?
I wonder when that will happen with rock, funk, hip-hop, electronic etc..., where the general audience no longer appreciates these genres as a way of expression, breaking of old traditions and pure fun entertainment for both the listeners and the audience, and starts looking at them as a status symbol and a technical showcase of skill. I might sound a little elitist but you get my point.
Jazz is basically music for music’s sake but for some reason a lot of people nowadays assume that means boringly snobbish… when you’re right, it should be about fun and freedom.
I don't know if you're really looking for an answer, but this actually has one! The answer is "Bebop". Before bop, jazz was considered "popular" music, in the same way that we think about rock/pop/rap etc today. Jazz started out in New Orleans as parlor music for saloons and brothels. Then came Swing music, which was basically just music for people to dance to! It wasn't until bop that jazz rose to what people (or rather, music critics) considered "art music", mostly because of the fact that bebop necessitates smaller crowds and has little mass-appeal compared to swing, thereby drawing in smaller-but-more-devoted audiences (apparently something can't be "art" if it's popular). And once bebop was declared "art music", it elevated the prior jazz traditions to the same level, due to those prior artists latching on to the narrative that bop was the culmination of their work; suddenly Louis Armstrong could be accepted as a legitimate artist (and thus get better bookings and more publicity) if he looked at Dizzie Gillespie and announced "That's my boy! Taught him everything he knows!". This is also why jazz history seems so clean and orderly before bebop (N.O. Jazz begat Swing, which begat Bebop), and then flies off in a dozen different directions afterwards (Cool Jazz, Free Jazz, Fusion, etc): the clean narrative was reinforced by economic forces.
So it was bebop (basically, "after World War II") that jazz started taking itself seriously. Before then, it was basically considered "Party Music", and took itself about as seriously as the band LMFAO (remember them?).
Jazz is just poorly represented in the mainstream. Whiplash being one of the more horrendous examples. I still shake my head thinking that they are stuck at Buddy Rich... and not the 50s, 60s, 70s.... Not Ellington or Sun Ra... it's like how "In the Mood" seems to be the only war time jazz song.
I've been attending jazz and new music concerts for about 25 years now.. there's really two major branches of jazz.. the first is the more accessible mashing of traditional jazz with classical that came about in the late 70s. That's what you get at most supper festivals. The second is carrying the torch for the free jazz and the post-war European jazz. i"m into the latter. We don't get big crows but we're friendly and dedicated... if not a bit shy.
I haven't experience this thing about jazz fans being insufferable.. if anything it's the classic rock fans who've decided there's only 5 jazz albums worth owning.
It’d be interesting to see you discuss metal elitism, as it’s in a way, the total opposite of classical elitism. Things like displaying wealth and popularity (like in music videos) are actually looked down upon, and the value is placed on underground music and detachment from the mainstream.
Wealth is almost looked down upon as a form of "softness" that dilutes the purity of the anger in the music. It's certainly interesting.
Oh absolutely. It can also get kind of hypocritical from the various debates I've seen online too lol. It's definitely something interesting to think about
Metal is one of the most gatekept genres of music in existence. It's intentional, if I'm understanding it right. They have the so-called "Wall of Death" to keep the normies away from the more interesting and chill subgenres.
Metal's not just exclusionary by feeling out of place, like Classical, it actively tried to disgust the uninitiated into leaving.
Note that this information is coming from some art students I met in college several years ago...
@@Greenicegod I will disagree that the chiller stuff is automatically more interesting, but yeah definitely. I almost always recommend my less heavy favorites to people (usually symphonic or power metal) because they are a lot better for a beginner and also awesome in their own right. So I guess I'm trying to break the stereotype?
@@Greenicegod uhhhhh… I think the wall of death is a thing in metal mosh pits where the audience splits into 2 sides, which then rush each other…
It’s not about at all about driving people away though. It’s complicated. The emphasis is on authenticity and expressing yourself, so things like fame and manufactured music are looked down on and rejected. And they also don’t really like people who like “surface level” metal bands. There’s a lot more too it though
Thank you for this video!!! Especially here in Germany, most music colleges are completely geared towards "classical" music. Even if there is a jazz/pop department, they do not do these styles of music justice. In music colleges in particular, you experience this strong arrogance of "classical" musicians towards jazz musicians, pop musicians and prospective school teachers - mainly among students and mostly old instrument teachers. That is such a shame. But if you then look at the schools, a 70-year-old curriculum is being taught that wants exactly that: It is almost only about Gregorian chants, baroque, classical, romantic, late romantic, modern. And almost only western music. The music that the students mostly listen to is lost and framed as "unimportant" in the lessons. I don't want to ignore the fact that things are slowly getting better, but the change is so sluggish and slow, it's really crap!
was a pleasure to work with you on this! :)
Thanks so much for your amazing illustrations!
did you do the animations? they look incredible!
Beautifull work!
Please tell me that going from Confucius thinking that music should be made "the right way" to literally the year 1984 was intentional.
Intentional or not that genuinely made me laugh out loud
"By telling someone what they should be saying, you're not listening." is a beautiful sentiment with which to approach complex and at first unaccessible art. I hope I remember that!
"Oh noooo! The Working Class!" (spooky ghost noises)
That was the part where I stopped having this in the background and started paying attention.
"L'enfer, c'est lest autres" was the bit that had me splitting my sides :)
Thanks for sharing
Just wow! I loved this video. (I also loved the Shosty bit at the very end). As a person from a Middle-Class Background™️ (lower middle class, to be exact) the classical music/sophistication relationship was always there during my upbringing, horribly enforcing a particular kind of middle class, aspirational elite snobbery. All that while my family struggled to save money so that they could get me a half decent, mass-produced violin. Took me a while to realize what was going on, and there's no single day that passes by without me wanting to share all the love I have for classical & connecting with other people that may not be familiar with it, and want to get into listening to western classical music. Anyways, I'll always hate those perfume commercials with Mahler playing in the background. Thank you so much for this and I hope the video brings the very much needed nuance to the discussion :)
Thanks a lot for watching! Speaking as another kid who was gifted a violin and lived through the same 'aspirational' classical upbringing
I wish I had that. I grew up in the opposite. Music was above us, we were not "given the talent" was something I heard a lot.
I still took up instruments, but I was expected to fail them. Taking them seriously was a waste of time.
I had a piano instead of a violin; but otherwise my experience was similar. The only music worth playing was classical music and church music (19th century style hymns, not "contemporary Christian"); while I preferred ragtime and jazz, which was fortunately "classic American" enough for them to eventually accept. Rock music was right out, however.
@@EphemeralTao I'll be damned, are we clones of each other?
Looks like i've got kind of similar story. I begged my family to buy me a keyboard.
One day when playing some not so hard Bach pieces, it was one of "Little preludes" i guess, i heard a noise from neibourghs. I have thought: "What... Why.. are you, lesser beings, bothering me?!"
This terified me and i stopped playing for over a month. But was a nice lesson of humilty at least
In Vienna, there's the Sommernachtskonzert by the Vienna Philarmonic. It's set in the same castle garden that was shown throughout this video, but it is not at all an elitist event. it's outdoors, late at night, free of charge and usually an excuse for students to get drunk on a weekday.
When I was in the 5th grade, we were taken on a field trip to the symphony by our cool AF 5th grade teacher, who also was a musician in her own right. The bus ride to the concert was filled with many of my friends, including myself, scoffing and making fun of classical music. We were all subject to the media stereotypes about classical music I guess. The bus ride back home was a complete 180 of attitude and impressions. We were all blown away by the experience. Myself, and most of my friends, were fans of classical music from that point on. I bring in classical elements to my own music to this day.
In the 5th grade i played trombone but i quit cause i couldnt afford the trips to anywhere
What did they do to you?
as someone who doesn't understand music that much or study full movements or concert pieces, I can say that as a kid I loved Andrea's concerts.
it was fun to watch and seeing everyone outside and having a good time added to that. I didn't feel that it was that devisive. though I was never raised to see classical music as boring or high class. it was always something nice and comforting
Exactly, I don't understand why the video looks down on Andre Rieu and his audience. He is being the ultra-elitist in that part of the video.
I just started, but I need to mention: Elitism in Neon Green papyrus font with a red drop-shadow is one of the greatest visual jokes I've ever seen. I am laughing so hard right now I was barely able to write this. Brava.
Why thank you!
This is a fantastic video, and I agree whole-heartedly with what you say. I am from a German working-class background, and even though music has been of utmost importance to me even as a child, I always felt that I bumped into invisible boundaries when trying to explore music as a career, and more than once was I reminded of my place by the "gate-keepers" mentioned in the video. My parents did encourage me, but only to consider music as a hobby and get a real job. So I did. But I kept at music, even though as a complete and utter dilettante. I became a teacher instead ,as the first of my family to visit university. There, again I was reminded of my humble beginnings quite a bit. Now,I am planning to take part in a programme which will qualify me to teach music at secondary school. Guess what approach I will be taking... Again, thank you.
absolutly, I had no access to music school... because it was to expensive, when I was a child. And when I tryed to get into a professional singing career as an adult I was told, that while voice and talent are there, the fact that I had no education as a child means I will not even pass the entry conditions and tests.
What started out as an exploration of elitism in society means turned into a lesson on empathy and the shaping of entire cultures through music. You've been putting out banger after banger, and this is no exception! Time to watch this five more times in a row
One thing that has really helped classical music has been videogames. I can't tell you the amount of friends who went from thinking classical is dumb to having Jeremy Soule, Borislav Slavov, Nobuo Uematsu, and Darren Korb on their playlists.
Who are they?
@@ses694 Jeremy Soule - Skyrim & Guild Wars. Borislav Slavov - Divinity Original Sin 2 & Baldur's Gate 3. Nobuo Uematsu - Final Fantasy until Masayoshi Soken took over (who is also amazing). Darren Korb Hades & Pyre and everything by Supergiant. All some of the best soundtracks ever made.
I bet that the video's author looks down on video games, though. Really, all I got from the video is that he is an elitist and proud of it.
@@ronald3836I get the opposite impression. What makes you think this?
@@godminnette2 e.g. the way he looks down on Andre Rieu and his audience. He also does not want to see classical music used in commercials. What does he want then? Keep it all for his elitist self?
André Rieu, commercials and many of the other example which he detests is how children in families that are different from the one in which he grew up come into contact with classical music.
He SAYS that he is against elitism, but his arguments all show that he is the #1 elitist himself.
I'm a relatively young guy (30) and since the pandemic began I've been getting into opera; I think this is an art form that could really benefit from shaking off the stuffy, white middle class image because honestly it's a really exciting, visceral art form when you get right down to it.
It's big, silly and honestly amazing. I come from a background of mostly listening to rock and metal music and I find the sensibilities fit really well. It's ultimately an art form where the primary driver is the ability to be comprehended, unamplified, in a massive space. This applies both to the singing techniques, with an emphasis on vocal power and piercing overtones, and the dramatic elements, which are necessarily large and over the top.
I even appreciate the fact that a lot of the best singers got to where they were not through just being hot and good enough at singing, but by virtue of their extraordinary voices, so you have a diverse range of body types represented throughout history (still predominantly white though it should be noted).
It might also be one of the only examples where things really were better in the past, back when it was a lot more popular.
Cannot recommend Hoffmann enough: it's great! Also Wagner, of course. Just a little push back, it's a European art form so why are you surprised that they're white? It's like complaining that so few djembe players are chinese!?
To quote from my favourite book, isn't this diverse enough for you? : "She sang, of course, "M'ama!" and not "he loves me," since an unalterable and unquestioned law of the musical world required that the German text of French operas sung by Swedish artists should be translated into Italian for the clearer understanding of English-speaking audiences." - Edith Wharton, Age of Innocence
@@ButlerianJihadi not so much a complaint, more of an acknowledgement and not wanting to oversell the diversity historically present in opera. Actually these days a lot of great singers seem to come from Korea and China, so the art does seem to be diversifying somewhat
I was watching this video, and when the opera clips entered I thought to myself "Opera must surely be the most elitistic part of classical music...." I would argue that it is less so now than before, due to the way they used operatic vocals in metal...
I think they are often long and boring tbh Wozzeck or more modern operas are cool, but most old operas are just boring and always the same, and I'm composer
@@musicfriendly12 I tend to agree and I think there's nothing wrong with just listening to the good bits; the one exception for me is Turandot, I can happily listen to that all the way through
This is incredibly compelling for me. It's interesting to see a discussion on the barriers towards getting into music, as someone who feels like they missed out.
I'm so passionate about music, I feel so connected to it, and I have a much higher tolerance for experimental music than most I know have (and honestly more than I do for other art forms). I can easily see a timeline where I pursued music, and I'm only recently realizing how blind I've been to this passion all along.
Alas, I was unable to receive music instruction growing up. Music class in primary school was only a couple times a month, and involved no playing. In my later years I did not get the opportunity to take music classes in school, including band class.
So here I am, 23 and just learning basic piano, and experiencing a lot of pain due to my lack of dexterity (and tiny stubby hands and fingers).
I wish I'd gotten into it sooner. I wish I understood real music theory. I wish I'd developed an ear for notes when I was most malleable instead of struggling with identification of notes.
I appreciate your respect for the poor kids that didn't get the same chance.
Hey, I only started piano at 25. Took a bit of doing, but I got reasonably good (until I stopped). Don't let the age this bother you. The major obstacle I faced was teaching myself to relax and let mistakes happen without being too bothered.
@@Tantacrul
@@Tantacrul this is a message I love, as something that really frustrates me is that other musicians were so much more talented than I am at a much earlier point in their lives than me, (Tim Henson at 10 years old for example)
The best time to start learning music is when you were born. The second best time is now! All you need is to try new things and practice and you will get there. People with perfect pitch were and are rare, so don't sweat it if you can't identify at first blush. Plus, real music theory is really just music convention and best practice, not ironclad rules. There are rules of thumb that exist that can guide your music - but like painting, basic rules can be bent and broken to serve the message you are trying to send.
In ethnomusicology classes we studied social stratification through Prague opera hall. The audience is literally put on a class tiers by the seating order. The front rows are for the classical music obsessives, regular visitors with long term passes, behind them are the class climbers, often people who don't really enjoy the music, but want to be seen in an elite spaces. Up above them are the tourists, then the music students and then the regular people. And wealthy donors are completely separated in their personal boxes.
And what really surprised me that of the regulars, most are working class people. People from small cities, who once in a year take their only formal dress, women take their inherited jewelery and they go to Prague to feel special.
Meanwile middle-class people from Prague don't go there. They just like bitching that the National opera plays only Smetana, Dvořák and other composers beloved by the Czech masses.
Powerful stuff. I've studied Music Education at the conservatory, and from that slight distance I could look at the different tastes of elitism - and their related insecurities - of classical, jazz and rock students. Of these groups I always felt most comfortable around the classical folks, because I had the sense that *image* wasn't as important there as in the other genres - It was more about commitment and faithfulness to the art (and drinking wine). Jazz folks came across like they were doing a contest who could shred the hardest at the most prestigious jam sessions with the most prestigious band members (and snort coke). Rock folks were doing a contest who had the most commercial appeal (and smoke pot).
Ultimately I didn't feel comfortable in any of these scenes, being the non-competitive jack-of-all-trades that I was (and still am!). I'm glad I've found a scene in which I feel at ease, which is being a video game music composer because I'm a nerd! =D
You've made me realize Jazz & Metal (mostly their musicians) have a lot in common lmao
Someone once described jazz as 4 musicans playing different songs at differenr tempos at the same time with 50 people in the crowd and the 4 musicians are the only ones having fun. With metal it's not just about speed. It's how many breakdowns can you have and can your breakdowns have breakdowns. Lol
Classical I found snobby. Have to play it a certain way or it is incorrect and so on. Jazz seems to have gone off the deep end a long time ago. And there's a lot of snobbery.
I went to music school, but I was one of the poorer students. I didn’t have teachers who had connections to the university professors growing up, so I didn’t get access to a lot of things. I was teaching to pay for tuition, which meant I didn’t have time to go to extra concerts, and festivals in the summers because I didn’t have rich parents who could send me to Europe and Asia. Because of that, I missed out on so many opportunities to “network.” These people got to get into the best masterclasses, had connections to get into competitions, schools, scholarships…granted most of us became piano teachers…it still sucked…it’s never been about how well you play…only about how much money you have, and your connections…
so is every aspect of life
But perhaps music more than other areas is OP's point, I believe.
"it's never been about how well you play" that's completely false buddy, the only thing that matters is how well you play, that's how you win competitions and get scholarships, there's a reason that jury members of competitions never have their own students compete, its because they keep it solely about how well you can play. If you practiced enough and worked hard then you could win the competitions too, but it seems to me you're blaming your own lack of achievement on the fact that you're poor
@@femboyfanservice6138 What defines how well you play? perfect note for note transcription? The quality of the instrument you hold? The "emotion" that you play with? The genetic physical characteristics that lend to the tone in your playing? How marketable you are in appearance, background? The point OP is making, above whether or not they were "good", is that there certainly is a vast discrepancy in the opportunities people have to learn and experience, depending on generational wealth and status.
@@ReapDaProductions marketing, background, appearance has nothing to do with it. The top 2 violinists in the world, one of them is facially disfigured and the other is paralyzed in both his legs. And emotion can't be bought
I had a music teacher in high school that presented us with an end of the year project - to share a composition that we liked and make an attempt to explain why. I chose 'Fear and Wonder' by Dimmu Borgir as I thought it was a moving piece and it was orchestral - I was in Orchestra class and it was a short and sweet piece. This music teacher humiliated me in front of my peers and said that it 'went nowhere' compositionally and they laughed at me and my grade was based off of his subjective taste and judgement. Ew, humans. Lol
That is a horrible teacher, and also why i hated subjective classes where i can lose points for my opinion not matching the teacher's. I took the engineering path where atleast math has to be objectively right or wrong and for multiple parts we use "ok assuming" so if you need the answer for part a to solve parts b-e you only get penalized once if you otherwise followed the process right.
If the assignment is pick a piece you like and explain why, then as long as you pick any piece, even a dumpster fire, and make a solid case pointing out music theory points or even just "i like this bit because i just do" then you should get credit.
While I agree with Jason, sounds like a missed opportunity to learn something
That’s a dope song wtf? Dimmu songs have many segments
Whoa now. What were the guidelines for the project, if I dare play devil's advocate?!
Teachers really fucked me up.
Destroyed my confidence.
Fuckin assholes.
Some are great;
But not enough.
And WTF is "the left" other than the new boogyman?
Jayzoos Fooken Kriyst Ahmytee grow UP peeps
the impostor phenomenon part reminded me of a quote from a book which said, that you hate the people you hate, because in a world where they are accepted, you are disliked and thus they are a threat to your entire being. music is such a big part for a lot of people and they identify with it deeply, so when popular perception of your favorite artist/genre changes, it can be hard not to take offense.
I've come to realise over the years that the music that has had the most popularity over time tends to contain something for everyone at every level. For example, some of Beethoven's works can be boiled down to a simple melody line: symphony number 5 (ba-ba-ba-baaaa/judge judy theme), symphony number 9 (ode to joy) etc.; but they also have much more complex structures behind the "simple" melody that can be analysed and acedemiaed to the hearts content. As a result, someone with little to no musical education in the area can appreciate it alongside someone with 1000s of hours of classical musical education.
If music is too simple/commercial with no "backbone" it can achieve initial popularity with the masses, but will generally fade as people don't gain anything from re-listening and the academics can't find anything to get excited about. If music is too challenging/complex/w*nkery it may have a few die hard nerds that absolutely love it, but will never achieve popularity as most people can't even listen to it in the first place.
I think an innate understanding of this phenomenon is what seperates "the greats" from everyone else.
then why is rap music popular?
At some point in my life, I realised that the enjoyment other people get out of music that I don't care for, is just as real and therefore legitimate as the enjoyment I get from music that I like. Even if it hits another part of their psyche from mine, that music is doing what it should do - bringing enjoyment.
So now, if I say something like, "I prefer their earlier stuff." I don't mean their later stuff is inferior, it's at most an expression of my disappointment that they didn't carry on in the style I liked best.
I think this egalitarian perspective puts me in an elite group far above most music fans. 😁
This video definitely makes me realise that there's a far-reaching extent to my own elitism and not just in music. When my son watches Lego Ninjago, I immediately reach for cherished childhood epics like The Mysterious Cities of Gold and pour a mental disdain over all modern kid's TV. Even though, and it pains me to even type this, Lego Ninjago probably has ...as much depth (argh, if not more) and ... urgh historical accuracy ...than (argh) a cartoon which proports to be based on fact. Plus it's hand-drawn and therefore better. Phew, wasn't so bad.
God, man, I hope you didn't trash ur kids favorite show to his face
@@KhayJayArt Guilty!! Nah, kidding. Wouldn't do that, it's not nice.
Watched this video a couple days ago, and I've been reflecting on it a while. As someone from more of a rock and folk background, it was interesting to see musical elitism from a mostly art music and but a little bit dubstep perspective. I've always enjoyed Skrillex (though as tourist who's not too into electronic music) and kind of thought people had a "they hate us 'coz they ain't us" envy of success. But that he went REALLY mainstream with a less subtle interpretation of dubstep is a valid reason dislike his music... or at least how it presents the genre. Even knowing this though, I will still continue to enjoy his music
In the final thoughts section I liked the bit about not jumping to conclusions about the listeners who like such music. It's a similar conclusion I came to during my 2 tours of Ireland before the pandemic. MANY people said how much they liked "Wagon Wheel," which during my musical career had become the most cliched song to cover in the history of American folk. I realized these Irish people probably have no idea of the background, and there is nothing defecient about these Irish people's taste for being fond of Wagon Wheel,
And reflecting on rock, i thought of Nickelback's reputation, i would say they occupy a similar space as Andre Riu, and sorta deserve the hate they get, in that they play a watered-down version of 90s grunge without any edge - which can be demonstrated in the rhythm guitar part of "photograph" compared to many of Alice In Chain's songs.. Though, in keeping with your final thoughts section, i can understand that despite all this, one can enjoy their music, and when my flatmate was blaring "This is How You Remind Me," I did my best to refrain from going full hipster.
But seriously, this was a fantastic video, and everyone involved in music should watch it.
look at this graph (sorry)
@@charliebeaux4059 HAHAHAHA
Wagon Wheel is actually a very very popular song in Ireland through the Irish country music scene, which is very popular in rural areas but is considered uncool and unoriginal by a lot of Irish people, particularly those who live in Dublin. This may not be relevant to your experience, but then again maybe it is...
Yeah, I was thinking specifically of people in kilfinaine and new Ross - so not the most urban of areas.
I find it interesting that Mozart's 'patronage predicament' - as much as we deprecate it today - is precisely the same situation for elite artists in some fields now. I'd posit that Andy Warhol and a number of "famous" modern artists likewise succeeded solely due to their sucking up to wealthy benefactors and patronage protection. Otherwise they'd have been basically nothing and died desperate in their mid 30s too.
Growing up in a semi-competitive musical environment, it seems to me that one of the reasons why musicians are so eager to exert their superiority over others, creating very steep hierarchies is the lack of resources: its a cruel form of Sayre`s law.
Well I think we shouldn't be so quick to call people's theories and thoughts 'laws' as though they were backed by scientific evidence, ESPECIALLY in an academic setting. I mean what next! ...
About 10 years ago I had my first project as a composer with.... an unnamed top conductor. And whenever he had questions for me during rehearsal, he said to the concertmaster "Please ask the composer if he wants an Ab there" while I was right in front of him. He wouldn't even use my name. I was "the composer". I would answer the conductor's question directly to him, and then for the next question, again, he addressed the concertmaster to pass the question along. No matter what, he wouldn't talk to me directly. I was quite shocked and humiliated. Later, during the break, one of the orchestra members told me not to take it personally, and that he does this often. Only a few weeks later I guess the conductor thought I was deemed worthy to be spoken to. I do not miss working with him.
That's insane bro. I would've been like "I'm over over, you can talk to my face!"
You are a wonderful troll for writing 'Elitism' in Papyrus, and in that colour combination. Love your videos, so many layers.