Jazz in its purest form is fun, enjoyably and playful. You go to any jazz gig now the audience feels wrong. They just sit there, not even nodding their heads to the crazy beat. Applauding when someone does a solo, when you applauding, you aint listening. Focus on the music, embrace the music, feel the music, let the music be part of you. Wait until they have finished and clap your hands sore. When I started going to Jazz gigs back in the 70's, there was a huge cross-section of people, from school teachers to factory workers. We danced in the aisles, laughed and enjoyed the spectacle. Now Jazz seems to have class distinction. A sedate bunch of people more intent on choosing the right bottle of white wine, when Chico Freeman is blowing his lungs out on the saxophone for our entertainment. I saw Billy Cobham in London last week, a great drummer from the fusion era and the audience just didn't feel right. I hear people saying, who am I to say who should or shouldn't be at an event.....but if I had turned up at a Punk Rock gig back in the 70's wearing corduroy trousers and a tweed jacket, I would have be chased out of town. I hope that analogy helps.... The cost of tickets for a gig now averages £50, that is a lot of money these days. Jazz has become like Premier League football, only there for those who can afford it. I know venues need to make money, but the entrance fees are too much for most Jazzheads..... Don't let Jazz become the new Classical music, please.........
It's not just fans, sometimes it's the musicians themselves. My father in law was a NYC Jazz musician who recorded with a few notable names and subbed many NYC gigs in the late 60s and early 70s told me one such story. a Name musician (who shall remain nameless here) had a fan come up after a gig to say thank you and show his appreciation. The musician's response was, 'that's exactly what I wanted, the opinion of a tourist' and scoffed, turning his back. I hope that fan never bought another record of theirs or bought another ticket.
@@herrbonk3635 those pesky tourists with their corny compliments. Personally I have nothing but love and gratitude for tourists, well sometimes they get too drunk and cause problems but still 💕
I was on a jazz gig decades ago and the "top" frontman had someone come up to him and compliment him on his playing and the band and his response..? "O...What do you know..??"
I've tried to explain to people who don't understand jazz that it is similar to classical music in terms of form but different in terms of content. Both classical and jazz have musical bookends with a flight of fancy, literally fantasia, in the middle. The difference is in the musical traditions that they draw from.
Jazz used to be the people’s music. It was weekend let’s-get-drunk club music. It was dance music. And then it got all serious and demanded intellectual gravitas from its audiences. The “No Lindy Dancing!” signs posted in clubs during bebop era ushered in a lot of ‘cool’ factor, but also elitism, which would lead to increased navel-gazing, and subsequent alienation of some fans, and leads us to why Andy had to make this video. 😀
But it wasn't all bad. Although half of it was sh*t or emperor's new clothes, more or less, a lot of it was also pleasant well composed (or improvised) music, even to the "layman's" ears. So pretty much like all kinds of music in that regard :)
@@herrbonk3635 that’s certainly true but I second ambients point. Jazz went from a community service industry to manufacturing art for boutiques. That’s why rock and roll.
@@SmartDave60 and some of the most popular but during that time Jazz was separating from the mainstream of popular music. I’m not saying that’s a bad thing but that did foster a kind of elitism. If there was a book called “Elitism for Dummies” there would be a chapter on How to become a Jazz connoisseur.
Well yeah, you're right. I personaly like more the jazz after the bebop era, in general, if I don't count Salsa and Tango, I listen to styles who are more tended to not favorize dancing that much. I do like the more music for listening stuff than music just for fun. But I'd like to say that you're right, although I love jazz, symphonic music and prog rock, in all these 3 fields there are a lot of elitists, scolars, fans, musicians who ruin everything for the sake of remaining "high, serious artists" I'm sorry if there's too much rumbling over here, hopefully I'm coherent and everything makes sense.
You ought to write a book. You've got a great understanding of the history of music and understand the cause and effects of everything from the 20th century forward. You understand how the pieces really fit together. If you could put a book on some shelves, I think you could really make a statement. I love your videos. Thanks for the great content and keep up the good work.
RUclips has a great deal to offer music fans however some channels are a bit over focused on the records, the labels or the pressing. Which pressing is the best can be fun for a bit but it's the music and the history which is more interesting. Another great video!
I find it interesting that you've now mentioned Colin Wilson in several videos... definitely a fan of his Lovecraftian fiction and his books on the esoteric. You should consider doing a full video on the topic.
What I really admire and makes me so relieved is to hear the respect of the individualism you bring in the arts 🎭! In this case obviously Jazz ! Jazz baby , it grooooves ! But once it becomes academic and only academic, is when arrogance, elitism rises , and of course , if anyone thinks out of the box it becomes a threat to that academia. Very ironic ! Really love and enjoy it Andy !!!! There was a Charles Baudelaire, or a Chris Welsh and now a sensitive musician with a passionate view that I so concord with ! Thank you Andy, now I’m growing a mustache !
Probably pretty much the same that makes opera or classical music fanatics snobby? (Fanatics of singer songwriters, folkmusic, Springsteen, can be pretty darn snobby too btw. Or of metal, prog, symphonic rock, rap, David Bowie, Led Zeppelin, Depeche mode, Kraftwerk, or what have you.)
To quote Betty Carter, "Jazz Music Aint Nothin But Soul". A music from all corners of the Black experience from the church to the streets along with influences from Classical, Latin and African idioms. It all goes back the days of music as entertainment in local venues and radio before broadcast tv and the expansion of Hollywood. The jazz critics who to their credit saw artistic merit in jazz were also responsible for over intellectualize it. However in any human endeavor (i.e sports) individuals will build hierarchies of excellence.
Musicians often say they aren’t really genres, but that just isn’t true. If I bought tickets for a jazz show and it turned out to be “soul music” or some other jazz-adjacent style, that wouldn’t be right.
It's quite the opposite, we are the least snobbish. Though every jazz enthusiast likes a certain kind of jazz and not all of it as a way to listen to it, live is another story.
Humble snobs ?.. It takes a lot of humility and trust to play jazz and improv jazz me thinks. Elitism, I think appears to exist because of the high art skill level that is needed to play jazz. Being a part of it is to be a disciplined in study and with a mind focused on freedom of mind to improvise confidently.. So yeah elitism is not the intent per say but is often the appearance of it. Thanks for your priceless thoughts in every video!!
Wunderbar Video Andy. Might be in the top ten, but only time will tell. I am no snob, but…… About a year ago we hosted a dinner party with friends. We played popular music, mostly classic rock and some pop throughout the evening. Everyone had fun. Many laughs and an enjoyable time for all. As it was winding down I put on “Kind of Blue”. Perfekt for the situation. If you want to listen it is interesting. If you don’t want to listen it is perfect background music. And I just love it. A short while later I stepped outside for a smoke. I return and Miles is away. In place is some 80’s german pop Video with some beavus and butthead quality animation. Now I stomped about a bit. Just a bit, not like a four year old. And I pointed out the absolute Wrongness of what happened in my absence. (In a fun way). I think this is justified. Question is…. Would this make me a Jazz Snob? ?
No, not a snob.. but be realistic. Les McCan, Swiss Time might have been better choice. Uptempo jazz. I was hosting a party (in New York). I have a huge jazz collection and a guest asked if I could stop playing electro pop and put on some be bop. I suggested he put on whatever he liked which turned out to be Miles at the Blackhawk. The buzz of the party dropped like a stone in water. People were literally ready to walk out after about 3 minutes. He and his Juliard friends were all very happy but I had to make a life or death choice. I quickly mixed Miles into something else. He came running into the main room what happened? I pointed to the pretty dancing party girls and said you want them to leave? Said he understood, grabbed a drink and walked away.
@@jody8526937 Thanks For The reply. I enjoyed your story, and it brought me fond memories. I was in Manhattan for a few years but now fifteen years have passed. I am in Berlin now. I completely agree with you in that lively music can lead to lively conversation, and dance music with people dancing is the best. To give a bit more context to the night I was writing about please know we have many parties. Some are mostly dancing and talking and laughing. This particular night I put on Miles around 3 in the morning. This was after 7 hours of gently controlling one friend who thought the only thing better than one AC/DC song was all of them. Another one who felt the same about George Michael. And a third who was determined Rammstein will not be under represented. Ha ! It was really a fun night. We had three friends still here before my 3am Kind of Blue selection. And they all lived in walking distance. Prior to this the only jazz injected by me was Panther by Marcus Miller. We all had a wonderful time.
What gets missed a lot is the role of melody. A lot of the most popular jazz up to the sixties really, is improvising well known melodies, and putting a new slant on them. There were some very good musicians writing their own original material, Ellington, Monk, John Lewis etc. But then a lot of people started writing material that was not strong, and then improvising on effectively nothing. People are not stupid; they lose interest. The same goes for a lot of so-called techno music; no melody, just an intro that carries on and goes nowhere.
Ornette Coleman may have been one of the greatest melody writers in any musical idiom. Albert Ayler and the A 3:40 rt Ensemble of Chicago, too, for that matter. I struggle to hear melody in a great deal of heavy metal, but not in Peter Brotzmann as he evolved. People aren't stupid, but they get told things are difficult when they really aren't. People are not stupid, but, if we're honest, they don't like to challenge themselves. They like the familiar. The material written after the 60s was just as strong; free improv is just as strong. It's just not as familiar to the listener. Also, the adventurousness of the listener ebbs and flows. Some of the toughest music to listen to was produced by Leo Ornstein in the late 1920s. He sold out concert halls in the late 1920s. Free jazz was making a kind of commercial breakthrough in the late 1970s and early 1980s, until the "purists" started casting shade on it, at the same time as they were trying to freeze out fusion. There are breakthrough periods and retrenchment periods in music. It's been my observation that the retrenchment periods are almost never generated by the listening public, but by the critics and record companies. Things were starting to get just a bit too wild for the gatekeepers; so they shut them down.
My father was a professional jazz Tenor Sax player, growing up in the 60s that's all you would hear at my house, he thought what I listened to was garbage, until he heard me listening to TOWER OF POWERS "Back to Oakland" one day, he approached me and asked who I was listening to, he loved the horn section & liked the band overall. A big fan from that day on.
Classical music also went from a popular music to a high artform. Its origins began with music often performed in liturgical settings for a large audience. Also chant and Western folk traditions are popular sources of music that later became high art.
Another great great thought provoking video and thanks for the heads up on Wilson, i missed the memo earlier obviously. And a worthwhile comments section too.
The great and enduring quality about jazz is improvisation - that extemporaneous reinvention of a standard we've all heard before but never 'that' way... The alchemy of personnel, vibe, interplay and ineffable chaos that come together just so... I love classical music but I'm not going to it for improvisation, I'm looking for a sensitive rendering of what I'm pretty much expecting to hear. Jazz snobs can be absolute wankers, I've worked with more than a few, but for the most part - musicians and listeners alike - it's all about passion, joy, and striving for creative excellence, whether it's blue bebop, big band songbook, gypsy fire, or some fusion collage. People can be great at what they do and will be listened to accordingly, revered for their talent, but if they are always obnoxious or mean they are neither loved nor respected. Great post.
Also one more thing, if this isn't a bother, I would love to hear your opinion on Fela Kuti. He is my fav artist, and filled me with pride of my ancestors and wanted to combine rock with afrobeat.
Bebop has been described as music played by musicians for musicians because you have to know the structure in order to follow along so if you can’t then it is just noise like my father said sounds like somebody’s skinning a cat
One of my casual music listening friends once remarked " I popped in for a pint and there was a jazz band playing .The sax player played a Frank Sinatra tune and then the band played a load of shyte for 10 minutes and they ended with the Sinatra tune .I didn't have a second pint "
Jazz has power, though. Play Take Five for folks that haven't heard jazz and see what happens. In a small roadhouse, on a long island, far from civilization, I played that tune, and a couple other classics and blues to folks that had never heard music like that.They were enthralled. It was more like a concert than a bar gig. The audience crowded round. For me, though, it was the looks on the kids faces. Amazed they were. What is this I am hearing?! Jazz has an unstoppable, timeless, and profound power. Let two masters tell you the whole story: ruclips.net/video/Of5y1L4z4r4/видео.html
Andy you touched on a very good subject: What you called the codifying of an art form. If you can, it would be fun to see you do a video on what drives the people that go beyond these boundaries (and create new art.) What are their backgrounds, what allows them to break out of the cookie cutter, would be interesting elements of video presentation.
"Mozart, What I heard today was new and fresh, but there was something slightly wrong - what are the words I'm looking for? Court Composer can you help me? - Yes, Sire, "Too many notes". Yes, Mozart, too many notes" - Take out a few and it will be perfect" - "Which notes would His Majesty have me remove?" said Mozart......
excellent Andy. I loved the part about Outsiderhood and codification. There is one more stage after codification, which is "co-option" which is when the mainstream adopts the codified version of the previous outsider movement. You should look up the anthropologist Victor Turner in this subject of liminality and communitas see Wikipedia to start. You will absolutely grock his work as you touch in his subjects frequently . cheers
Wilson’s ‘The Outsider’. I wonder how many people have found that book down the years and felt that it was speaking to some aspect of themselves that they felt hadn’t been addressed previously by more celebrated or technical philosophers.
I got a currant interest in the history of Jazz and other types of music outside the USA like in England, France, Netherlands, Brazil, Cuba, Trinadad and Calypso, Hi-Life from the 1920's onwards. Good book I just bought is Keeper of The Flame: Modern Jazz in Mancester 1946-1972 by Bill Birch.
Excellent video, thanks! I don't really know jazz that well, but I'm curious about it. I'm one of those who listen to a Coltrane song and go "huh?!". But your remark about being the outsider resonated with me. I recently read Burroughs' "Naked Lunch" which some say is just a collection of ramblings and shock for shock's sake (or literary masturbation) -- and granted, at times it felt like that. But at best, it reached these insanely inspiring heights that talked to me with power and rhythm, where I almost felt like it opened up a new sort of creativity in me. Almost as if something had been struggling inside, but then it found a similar sound (or soul) and started making its way out. I have a list of some influential jazz albums that I've been meaning to listen, but they intimidate me, so I haven't. I'll check one out soon(ish) with this outsider thing in mind!
Re: copying Bird. It was so widespread, Charles Mingus wrote a song known as Gunslingin' Bird. Full title was "If Charlie Parker Was a Gunslinger, There Would Be a Lot of Dead Copycats"
I've played many forms of music as a very average keys player, including jazz. I gravitate towards jazz because I like the intricacies, the harmonies and I'm an improviser. But all forms of music are equally valid for their own reasons and I don't value one above the other. I used to play in a Jethro Tull tribute; currently I'm in a ska band which is technically much simpler but no less important to get the right vibe. Great music comes from the heart, not the fingers.
I was accused of being a "gate keeper" for telling Cannibal Corpse fans they really should be listening to Atheist or Pestilence instead, but in actuality it was my inner Jazz Conisaur coming to the surface, what a relief.
Not all jazz fans are snobby. I love jazz, I’ve seen Chick Corea, Wayne Shorter, and Miles. But for different moods I love Tool, The English Beat or The Grateful Dead. You’ve got to pick your spots.
Sometimes be-bop is the perfect soundtrack to your life, it's inexplicable. Those film-noir movies from the fifties love the bop. Apparently the French films, as well. Dabba - dop-ba-deedlee-oh-du-bop....
Lester Young invented cool and most of the hipster lingo that followed. He either first said it or it was first said about him. With the ‘Birth of the Cool’ session Miles codified Cool Jazz but that sound and the musicians that played it was greatly influenced by Lester Young!
elitism is a cultural indicator of a higher social class, upper middle class or middle class wanting the supposed exclusive cultural qualities of the UMC. In Europe, since the 80 s its become more generalized IMHO.
without data, it's not possible to be confident about these opinions. But looking at the ticket prices of Jazz festivals and the dress code, and behaviour of the jazz public in my country you can make sound speculations I believe
Hard to know without data but looking at the price of the tickets, the attires and behaviors of the public at Jazz Festivals in my EU country allow for a sound guess
Hi, I think a lot of what you said is right-on, and this is a topic that I've not seen addressed before on RUclips, so it was interesting to listen to. I've been a jazz musician my entire life (straight-ahead, bebop and the great standards), playing professionally whenever I can, (but always secondary to a "main income" source).. I wanted to just add an idea to your already excellent analysis: I feel that in many cases, the way that jazz elitism can create antagonism and ill feelings stems from unfair (and unnecessary) COMPARISONS with other types of music that may not be as complex or sophisticated.. In my own case, I love 1950's rockabilly and also doowop vocal group harmony recordings of the same era.. Clearly those music types are much simpler than jazz, but when I listen, I'm not comparing those genres to jazz, and vice versa. When I'm listening to the solid backbeat of a rocking Gene Vincent and the Blue Caps tune, or the Five Keys singing one of their classic ballads, I'm not thinking, "man, why doesn't this swing?", or "wow, what a stupid, harmonically simplistic guitar solo!"... I dig it for what it is. And it WORKS the way it is (a jazz guitar solo in a rockabilly tune wouldn't fit).. So bottom line, we should all like what we like, but not seek to diminish other genres via comparisons... I think some classical music fans/musicians may be guilty of the same...
When 15 I moved to a new town which was a culture shock. At that time i discovered jazz *a deliverate act). This was the early 70s and I was hoovering up the burgeoning jazz rock scene and also getting to love Ornette Coleman, Monk, etc. Jazz worked for me musically but also gave me a feeling of elitism or superiority which helped my given or acquired outsider status. Anyway, now when i go to jazz gigs I just hear essentially, Trane, Becker copyists and a pervasive elitist atmosphere or certainly a lack of shared knowledge that we're listening to tired, derivative music. Im still a jazz fan but am more drawn to for example the music Steve Lamacq plays on Radio 6.
I'm sure there is some moving jazz out there. But it's okay though if you can't find it. There are other genres of music that can provide both perceptions.
I can't tell you how many people have put their head in my front door shouting "Hey, it's the Fonz!" - I run outside to look and it's just some guy in a rainjacket. God damn kids. These days, I don't even look up.
2 comments. As a fan but not a musicologist I think Jazz died when getting the approval of rarefied critics became more important than respecting the audience. And, wrong moustache, it needs to be a 70s Zapata moustache or a Nick Cave bad MF'er truck driver 'teaches.
Gabriel Marcel pointed out that one of the chief fallacies in Modernist thinking (and Bebop is Modernist to its core) is the equation of knowledge with technique, as if knowledge could be "bought at a chemist."
@AndyEdwardsDrummer Yes, the emergence of Modal and Free Jazz certainly reflects a more postmodern mindset, and Hard Bop is almost a regression (although not in a negative sense) to forms more reminiscent of folk music, specifically the Blues. Further, though, Bebop took a Modernist (technical) approach to improvisation. The notion of playing through changes is the epitome of reducing spontaneity to formula. The impetus for the emergence of later forms was specifically the intuition that beauty is not reducible to formula (Da Vinci and Fibonacci aside).
Cool video, I think jazz is like the kid who likes to take something apart and put it back together. Then it becomes your own basically just the tinkers of music 😅
Take it all in, "JAZZ, NEW & OLD" .COUNTRY, POP, R&B, FUNK, SOUL, FUSION, LATIN, CLASSICAL...If it's going to help you to become a better player, then it's all good
@@herrbonk3635 yes I agree. A piece of music can check all the boxes on the master list of what makes music good but I may not love it, and vice versa. Last week I heard an old lounge band on a private pressing playing jazz very badly. The band was out of sync and the tempo was all over the place, the singer was going off pitch but the emotion behind it was so real it nearly made me cry.
good thoughts, andy. you are obviously not a snobby, dogmatic jazz fan and taking the piss out of such people is fair game, IMHO. as a former musician and jazz critic at the toronto star newspaper, i've encountered many people who do think that way. one problem is that, like the evolution of any artform as you suggest, an inevitable byproduct of the "jazz movement" is that a scholarly discipline and historiography develop around it. and a "mythology" develops. eventually the purveyors and practitioners alike get caught up in preserving the sanctity and purity of the paradigm. inevitably, because we are human and egos and subjectivity are involved, over time the mythology splits into different factions and the camps debate the "true" tenets of the movement. what constitutes "true jazz" is at the heart of most debates over jazz. but, truth be told, at its most complex, vanguard level -- like avant garde art or high-end literature, etc. -- jazz has become almost non-understandable to all but the most learned, and sometimes snobbiest, purveyors and practitioners. in my own experience, jazz musicians, and musicians in general, might be the only ones who really "get" jazz -- not feel it viscerally or understand it intellectually, but fully appreciate the technical and emotional processes involved in making it. yet, musicians tend to be the least snobby jazz fans. by its very nature, jazz encourages -- no, demands -- "free" thinking. so naturally it attracts "free" thinkers. but it's the non-musicians who tend to form the bulk of the "snobbish" set that drives much of the "discipline" of jazz and zealously guard their version of the creation myth. not helpful. ironically, at the risk of sounding elitist, in my experience the non-musician jazz fan almost always feels that they lack one crucial ingredient -- the ability to play the artform -- and they tend to defer to the jazz musician as the more "authentic" voice in the jazz debate. some don't admit it, but that is their world view. as a free-thinking person and musician, you will never succumb to the vulgarities of the jazz elite. to you, and me, it is just another beautiful artform that should be treated with respect and should encourage innovative thinking, not dogma and elitism.
Speaking as the son of a very good Jazz trombonist and drummer, yes my Dad could be a terrible snob when comparing his art form to other genres, until you caught him tapping his feet to something 'pop' like Abba. Jazz has sufficient complexity to allow fans to lord it over others if they choose, but I also get the feeling that it was resentment of Rock 'n Roll's success that motivated them.
Simple answer? Because it's been academicized, politicized (to an extreme point) and marginalized as an elite musical form thanks to Marsalis, Crouch and Burns. I was there when the college movement started. It was great to see the music get respect. Now, it's been captured by the elite class, who ossify everything they touch into museum pieces. It's still a living music, still evolving. That's a fundamental part of the music.
@@AndyEdwardsDrummer It isn’t. Your dictionary is broken. Toss that one out and buy new, fully-functional one with a good warranty. Could happen again.
Perfect example here- we are listening to your intelligent talk and an ad with Rap music and loud interrupts us. And they wonder why we become exasperated snobs?
Art is becoming more and more democratic, given the wide spread of art styles among the population - musicians, artists, writers, poets, film, dance, etc. Art is not elitist, though perhaps in the past. Now more and more can engage in their artistic skills. In fact there are too many books, too many paintings, too many albums, too much of everything to the point where you materially know it is now an arty populism.
What about guys like Charlie Mingus who took all traditional stuff from various corners of jazz, rolled it up in a ball and came out with genius. .....genius which was still jazz. He didn't have to come out with something completely new and maybe foreign to jazz and then insist "you" call it jazz. All music faces some "confines" and those confines focus not like puritan inhibitions out of the past but rails to a train.
Jazz fans always talk about it in the academic sense to the point where it just comes off as elitist or pretentious. Appreciating technique is fine but I mostly just shut up and enjoy the music. Could care less what key it’s in or scale they play nor can I read music. It’s music, and like any other type, it’s about a feeling.
One other thing to add, I suppose jazz is a version of dyslexic music, to those that don't get it. My ex used to say it sounds like jazz artists are all playing together but are all playing a different tune to the other players.
I'm a big Jazz fan, but I wouldn't say I am snobby. I only differentiate between Good Music & Bad Music. But when I hear Bad Music, I need to turn it off or I will throw up.
So the cycle is that a new art form pops up (such as jazz), and a lot of people hate on it because it's different. But people eventually warm up to it, codify it because of how awesome it is, then take it to amazing heights (skill and content wise). Then all that codification and progress becomes the new norm, and the "way things should be." So someone comes along and tries to do something new and unheard of, which seems to go against the way things should be, and people hate on it. And the process repeats from there. Plus, there's the "people think I'm listening to noise, but they just don't understand" aspect as well. (Personally, I think this is an okay take, but the elitists went about it the wrong way. It's possible to have this type of view without it becoming elitism; it's called being open minded and "live and let live." No tea, no shade. This way, you like your stuff, but you don't have a problem with others disliking your stuff because you accept their views.) Did I get the gist of the video, or did I miss something?
Just a blues note, here. Listen to Mike Bloomfield play a slow blues like Albert's Shuffle on Super Session (side one is perfect if you ignore Man's Temptation) - Michael, a blues master will play one or two or three notes with bends, big ones and little ones, that create infinite microtones between the notes. Listen to B.B. King sing and play, same thing - infinite microtones. 5 notes in the pentatonic scale, infinite notes in between. Shakuhachi (traditional Japanese bamboo flute) - same thing, usually in minor keys. Here's Japanese blues - ruclips.net/video/dBlRJcK6qFg/видео.html. I call the Japanese approach "one note perfect", like Albert King (loves single notes teased into infinite forms).
You could put colkege-aged Phish fans from the early/mid-1990s in the same snobbery category. Those guys were obnoxious, and in their minds, no other band was any good at all except for Phish, and there were no other musicians on the planet who could play their respective instruments as good as the members in Phish. I used to get so annoyed at college parties when I found myself stuck in a conversation with a die-hard, mushroomhead, Phish fan...so damn snobby, and typically worse than even the music college jazz cats, especially considering the fact that they didn't even play any instruments themselves.
Interestingly enough, something similar happened in classical music during the Romantic era. Bach was considered to be genius when he died, but the cult of the genius surrounding Beethoven did not yet exist. I find that the genius of pre-Romantic composers is underrated (except for Mozart) because they always compose with a listener in mind. Therefore, their compositional genius is often understated and subtle. I have to say that I listen to Haydn far more often than I listen to Wagner, who was during his lifetime the apotheosis of the "artistic genius." I find a lot of genius in pre-bop jazz, and I listen to it a lot. Bebop and post-bop are just too damn demanding for me much of the time! I do not repent and I do not apologize. Ok, here's a question for the real jazz music theorists. What about a guy like Oscar Peterson? I know he's doing some amazing and subtle stuff on the keyboard, but I find his playing to be accessible. I have even introduced OP to some people who profess not to like jazz, and they dig him. What's going on there?
Peterson was a true professional and I found him complimentary to the bandleader as a sideman and he did a fine job on every occasion. But do I want to hear him as the leader or solo? Not so much.
I have to say that I do love jazz, but certainly not all of the music that seems to fall under its umbrella. There is some that, while I find it pleasant to listen to, does eventually make me feel that maybe they should have wrapped it up a few minutes ago. Then there's the various flavours that try just a bit to hard to be "art". I've always said that if you consciously think your creating art, you ain't creating art. I heard a Chick Correa (spelling?) cut (or the first few seconds of it lol) which started promisingly enough, with a rather pretty piano intro, but all of a sudden he was joined, or perhaps attacked is a better word, by a group of other musicians who seemed intent on playing anything they damned well pleased. Sorry, it wasn't musically challenging, or "experimental"*, or art by any definition. A certain young jazz singer once sang, "You ain't got a thing if you ain't got that swing." That sort of jazz ain't got no swing, sorry. Having said that, I often half-seriously tell my guitar students (I teach rock guitar) that if they mess up and play something noticeably wrong or off, just say you're playing jazz and nobody will know otherwise, especially jazz enthusiasts lol. Whenever I mention that in a forum on the internet, you 'd perhaps not be surprised at the near riots I cause 🤣 * When you see the the word "experimental" to describe a jazz piece or artist, run like hell.
When Benny Goodman was chosen because he was a white band leader for the national jazz radio program. The Jazz critics call the music sophisticated and intelligent. Those adjectives had never been used for Count Basie or Chic Webb..... The classical musicians were snobs and white Jazz critics brought that snobbery over into jazz. Jazz musicians on a whole are down-to-earth.
@@drsrsv8884 Oh yeah Mozart died comfortably and a multi-millionnaire. Ah no he died in poverty and was buried in a common grave... Bach had to hold a job where he was looked down upon and had to create hours of music per week plus teach and play... Beethoven suffered through his illness and Schubert too and they barely heard their compositions played and if they did it was once and that was it. But there is a monopoly of suffering apparently and it can only belong to one type of people.
![OhGeesy x Lefty Gunplay - What It Iz [Official Music Video]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/L0yzW9t2ixk/mqdefault.jpg)
I'm not a snob. Ask anybody. Well, anybody who matters.
😂😂😂
🏆 🏆 🏆
Jazz in its purest form is fun, enjoyably and playful.
You go to any jazz gig now the audience feels wrong.
They just sit there, not even nodding their heads to the crazy beat.
Applauding when someone does a solo, when you applauding, you aint listening.
Focus on the music, embrace the music, feel the music, let the music be part of you.
Wait until they have finished and clap your hands sore.
When I started going to Jazz gigs back in the 70's, there was a huge cross-section of people, from school teachers to factory workers.
We danced in the aisles, laughed and enjoyed the spectacle.
Now Jazz seems to have class distinction.
A sedate bunch of people more intent on choosing the right bottle of white wine, when Chico Freeman is blowing his lungs out on the saxophone for our entertainment.
I saw Billy Cobham in London last week, a great drummer from the fusion era and the audience just didn't feel right.
I hear people saying, who am I to say who should or shouldn't be at an event.....but if I had turned up at a Punk Rock gig back in the 70's wearing corduroy trousers and a tweed jacket, I would have be chased out of town.
I hope that analogy helps....
The cost of tickets for a gig now averages £50, that is a lot of money these days.
Jazz has become like Premier League football, only there for those who can afford it.
I know venues need to make money, but the entrance fees are too much for most Jazzheads.....
Don't let Jazz become the new Classical music, please.........
Jazz has made me less snobby. It's such an amazing, diverse art form that touches every aspect of music and culture.
I don't have time for snobs, stuff like that is beneath me
It's not just fans, sometimes it's the musicians themselves. My father in law was a NYC Jazz musician who recorded with a few notable names and subbed many NYC gigs in the late 60s and early 70s told me one such story. a Name musician (who shall remain nameless here) had a fan come up after a gig to say thank you and show his appreciation. The musician's response was, 'that's exactly what I wanted, the opinion of a tourist' and scoffed, turning his back. I hope that fan never bought another record of theirs or bought another ticket.
Go on...give us a clue...
Sad. But there are pop artists with the same attitude.
@@herrbonk3635 those pesky tourists with their corny compliments. Personally I have nothing but love and gratitude for tourists, well sometimes they get too drunk and cause problems but still 💕
I was on a jazz gig decades ago and the "top" frontman had someone come up to him and compliment him on his playing and the band and his response..? "O...What do you know..??"
There's nothing cruelty loves more than a justification for being cruel.
Hands down THE snobbiest people you'll meet at the unemployment office.
I've tried to explain to people who don't understand jazz that it is similar to classical music in terms of form but different in terms of content. Both classical and jazz have musical bookends with a flight of fancy, literally fantasia, in the middle. The difference is in the musical traditions that they draw from.
I’m a jazz fan snob, a car snob, a hi Fi snob. Mrs Bucket has nothing on me. Oh and a video snob, yours are great.
Only the best people understand my videos
@@AndyEdwardsDrummer now tuck your shirt in.
just the mrs bucket remark proves your a snob lol
18:37 You've cracked it. I have seen this and I'm so glad someone highly knowledgeable like yourself is saying it
Jazz used to be the people’s music. It was weekend let’s-get-drunk club music. It was dance music. And then it got all serious and demanded intellectual gravitas from its audiences. The “No Lindy Dancing!” signs posted in clubs during bebop era ushered in a lot of ‘cool’ factor, but also elitism, which would lead to increased navel-gazing, and subsequent alienation of some fans, and leads us to why Andy had to make this video. 😀
But it wasn't all bad. Although half of it was sh*t or emperor's new clothes, more or less, a lot of it was also pleasant well composed (or improvised) music, even to the "layman's" ears. So pretty much like all kinds of music in that regard :)
@@herrbonk3635 that’s certainly true but I second ambients point. Jazz went from a community service industry to manufacturing art for boutiques. That’s why rock and roll.
But some of the most revered jazz artists are from the 1940s to the 60s.
@@SmartDave60 and some of the most popular but during that time Jazz was separating from the mainstream of popular music. I’m not saying that’s a bad thing but that did foster a kind of elitism. If there was a book called “Elitism for Dummies” there would be a chapter on How to become a Jazz connoisseur.
Well yeah, you're right. I personaly like more the jazz after the bebop era, in general, if I don't count Salsa and Tango, I listen to styles who are more tended to not favorize dancing that much. I do like the more music for listening stuff than music just for fun.
But I'd like to say that you're right, although I love jazz, symphonic music and prog rock, in all these 3 fields there are a lot of elitists, scolars, fans, musicians who ruin everything for the sake of remaining "high, serious artists"
I'm sorry if there's too much rumbling over here, hopefully I'm coherent and everything makes sense.
You ought to write a book. You've got a great understanding of the history of music and understand the cause and effects of everything from the 20th century forward. You understand how the pieces really fit together. If you could put a book on some shelves, I think you could really make a statement. I love your videos. Thanks for the great content and keep up the good work.
When I bought my first Blue Note rekkid I felt like I had turned a corner. Same punk neighborhood but a different street.
Those is good rekkits
RUclips has a great deal to offer music fans however some channels are a bit over focused on the records, the labels or the pressing. Which pressing is the best can be fun for a bit but it's the music and the history which is more interesting. Another great video!
I find it interesting that you've now mentioned Colin Wilson in several videos... definitely a fan of his Lovecraftian fiction and his books on the esoteric. You should consider doing a full video on the topic.
What I really admire and makes me so relieved is to hear the respect of the individualism you bring in the arts 🎭!
In this case obviously Jazz ! Jazz baby , it grooooves ! But once it becomes academic and only academic, is when arrogance, elitism rises , and of course , if anyone thinks out of the box it becomes a threat to that academia. Very ironic !
Really love and enjoy it Andy !!!!
There was a Charles Baudelaire, or a Chris Welsh and now a sensitive musician with a passionate view that I so concord with !
Thank you Andy, now I’m growing a mustache !
Probably pretty much the same that makes opera or classical music fanatics snobby?
(Fanatics of singer songwriters, folkmusic, Springsteen, can be pretty darn snobby too btw. Or of metal, prog, symphonic rock, rap, David Bowie, Led Zeppelin, Depeche mode, Kraftwerk, or what have you.)
We are in an era of sub specialization; this division affects all subjects. Music is one discipline affected.
To quote Betty Carter, "Jazz Music Aint Nothin But Soul". A music from all corners of the Black experience from the church to the streets along with influences from Classical, Latin and African idioms. It all goes back the days of music as entertainment in local venues and radio before broadcast tv and the expansion of Hollywood. The jazz critics who to their credit saw artistic merit in jazz were also responsible for over intellectualize it. However in any human endeavor (i.e sports) individuals will build hierarchies of excellence.
What does that even mean? Soul is even more Soul than Jazz then?
Musicians often say they aren’t really genres, but that just isn’t true. If I bought tickets for a jazz show and it turned out to be “soul music” or some other jazz-adjacent style, that wouldn’t be right.
It's quite the opposite, we are the least snobbish. Though every jazz enthusiast likes a certain kind of jazz and not all of it as a way to listen to it, live is another story.
Humble snobs ?.. It takes a lot of humility and trust to play jazz and improv jazz me thinks. Elitism, I think appears to exist because of the high art skill level that is needed to play jazz. Being a part of it is to be a disciplined in study and with a mind focused on freedom of mind to improvise confidently.. So yeah elitism is not the intent per say but is often the appearance of it. Thanks for your priceless thoughts in every video!!
Wunderbar Video Andy. Might be in the top ten, but only time will tell.
I am no snob, but……
About a year ago we hosted a dinner party with friends.
We played popular music, mostly classic rock and some pop throughout the evening.
Everyone had fun. Many laughs and an enjoyable time for all.
As it was winding down I put on “Kind of Blue”. Perfekt for the situation. If you want to listen it is interesting. If you don’t want to listen it is perfect background music. And I just love it.
A short while later I stepped outside for a smoke. I return and Miles is away. In place is some 80’s german pop Video with some beavus and butthead quality animation.
Now I stomped about a bit. Just a bit, not like a four year old. And I pointed out the absolute
Wrongness of what happened in my absence. (In a fun way).
I think this is justified.
Question is….
Would this make me a Jazz Snob? ?
No, not a snob.. but be realistic. Les McCan, Swiss Time might have been better choice. Uptempo jazz. I was hosting a party (in New York). I have a huge jazz collection and a guest asked if I could stop playing electro pop and put on some be bop. I suggested he put on whatever he liked which turned out to be Miles at the Blackhawk. The buzz of the party dropped like a stone in water. People were literally ready to walk out after about 3 minutes.
He and his Juliard friends were all very happy but I had to make a life or death choice. I quickly mixed Miles into something else. He came running into the main room what happened? I pointed to the pretty dancing party girls and said you want them to leave? Said he understood, grabbed a drink and walked away.
@@jody8526937 Thanks For The reply. I enjoyed your story, and it brought me fond memories. I was in Manhattan for a few years but now fifteen years have passed. I am in Berlin now.
I completely agree with you in that lively music can lead to lively conversation, and dance music with people dancing is the best.
To give a bit more context to the night I was writing about please know we have many parties. Some are mostly dancing and talking and laughing.
This particular night I put on Miles around 3 in the morning. This was after 7 hours of gently controlling one friend who thought the only thing better than one AC/DC song was all of them. Another one who felt the same about George Michael. And a third who was determined Rammstein will not be under represented. Ha !
It was really a fun night.
We had three friends still here before my 3am Kind of Blue selection. And they all lived in walking distance. Prior to this the only jazz injected by me was Panther by Marcus Miller. We all had a wonderful time.
Great stuff Andy. Such a good channel
We are not snobby, we are grumpy, we are all above 50ty.
I am not good at creating music, but I love to be in that cosmos I call jazz, where I play what the space asks...or ables.
Great video!
So glad to hear coherent discussion of the music that I felt I was the only one trying to get it.
JT
What gets missed a lot is the role of melody. A lot of the most popular jazz up to the sixties really, is improvising well known melodies, and putting a new slant on them. There were some very good musicians writing their own original material, Ellington, Monk, John Lewis etc. But then a lot of people started writing material that was not strong, and then improvising on effectively nothing. People are not stupid; they lose interest. The same goes for a lot of so-called techno music; no melody, just an intro that carries on and goes nowhere.
Ornette Coleman may have been one of the greatest melody writers in any musical idiom. Albert Ayler and the A 3:40 rt Ensemble of Chicago, too, for that matter. I struggle to hear melody in a great deal of heavy metal, but not in Peter Brotzmann as he evolved.
People aren't stupid, but they get told things are difficult when they really aren't.
People are not stupid, but, if we're honest, they don't like to challenge themselves. They like the familiar.
The material written after the 60s was just as strong; free improv is just as strong. It's just not as familiar to the listener. Also, the adventurousness of the listener ebbs and flows. Some of the toughest music to listen to was produced by Leo Ornstein in the late 1920s. He sold out concert halls in the late 1920s.
Free jazz was making a kind of commercial breakthrough in the late 1970s and early 1980s, until the "purists" started casting shade on it, at the same time as they were trying to freeze out fusion. There are breakthrough periods and retrenchment periods in music. It's been my observation that the retrenchment periods are almost never generated by the listening public, but by the critics and record companies. Things were starting to get just a bit too wild for the gatekeepers; so they shut them down.
My father was a professional jazz Tenor Sax player, growing up in the 60s that's all you would hear at my house, he thought what I listened to was garbage, until he heard me listening to TOWER OF POWERS "Back to Oakland" one day, he approached me and asked who I was listening to, he loved the horn section & liked the band overall. A big fan from that day on.
Classical music also went from a popular music to a high artform. Its origins began with music often performed in liturgical settings for a large audience. Also chant and Western folk traditions are popular sources of music that later became high art.
Another great great thought provoking video and thanks for the heads up on Wilson, i missed the memo earlier obviously. And a worthwhile comments section too.
The band "Snobby Puppy" is named after me!
The great and enduring quality about jazz is improvisation - that extemporaneous reinvention of a standard we've all heard before but never 'that' way...
The alchemy of personnel, vibe, interplay and ineffable chaos that come together just so...
I love classical music but I'm not going to it for improvisation, I'm looking for a sensitive rendering of what I'm pretty much expecting to hear.
Jazz snobs can be absolute wankers, I've worked with more than a few, but for the most part - musicians and listeners alike - it's all about passion, joy, and striving for creative excellence, whether it's blue bebop, big band songbook, gypsy fire, or some fusion collage.
People can be great at what they do and will be listened to accordingly, revered for their talent, but if they are always obnoxious or mean they are neither loved nor respected.
Great post.
TY brother Andy, diggin' your videos bro, keep on swingin' !!!
Also one more thing, if this isn't a bother, I would love to hear your opinion on Fela Kuti. He is my fav artist, and filled me with pride of my ancestors and wanted to combine rock with afrobeat.
Bebop has been described as music played by musicians for musicians because you have to know the structure in order to follow along so if you can’t then it is just noise like my father said sounds like somebody’s skinning a cat
One of my casual music listening friends once remarked " I popped in for a pint and there was a jazz band playing .The sax player played a Frank Sinatra tune and then the band played a load of shyte for 10 minutes and they ended with the Sinatra tune .I didn't have a second pint "
Jazz has power, though. Play Take Five for folks that haven't heard jazz and see what happens. In a small roadhouse, on a long island, far from civilization, I played that tune, and a couple other classics and blues to folks that had never heard music like that.They were enthralled. It was more like a concert than a bar gig. The audience crowded round. For me, though, it was the looks on the kids faces. Amazed they were. What is this I am hearing?!
Jazz has an unstoppable, timeless, and profound power. Let two masters tell you the whole story:
ruclips.net/video/Of5y1L4z4r4/видео.html
Well, now you know, a Viennese waltz has always been described as a swing feel
Andy you touched on a very good subject: What you called the codifying of an art form. If you can, it would be fun to see you do a video on what drives the people that go beyond these boundaries (and create new art.) What are their backgrounds, what allows them to break out of the cookie cutter, would be interesting elements of video presentation.
"Mozart, What I heard today was new and fresh, but there was something slightly wrong - what are the words I'm looking for? Court Composer can you help me? - Yes, Sire, "Too many notes". Yes, Mozart, too many notes" - Take out a few and it will be perfect" - "Which notes would His Majesty have me remove?" said Mozart......
excellent Andy. I loved the part about Outsiderhood and codification. There is one more stage after codification, which is "co-option" which is when the mainstream adopts the codified version of the previous outsider movement. You should look up the anthropologist Victor Turner in this subject of liminality and communitas see Wikipedia to start. You will absolutely grock his work as you touch in his subjects frequently . cheers
Wilson’s ‘The Outsider’. I wonder how many people have found that book down the years and felt that it was speaking to some aspect of themselves that they felt hadn’t been addressed previously by more celebrated or technical philosophers.
To be honest I has to put it down as it contained so many my purported details that the writer could not have known .
The Andy Edwards madness continues!..lol. Well done Andy. We need to have that ‘nose up in the air’ bubble poked at…..👍
I got a currant interest in the history of Jazz and other types of music outside the USA like in England, France, Netherlands, Brazil, Cuba, Trinadad and Calypso, Hi-Life from the 1920's onwards.
Good book I just bought is Keeper of The Flame: Modern Jazz in Mancester 1946-1972 by Bill Birch.
Excellent video, thanks! I don't really know jazz that well, but I'm curious about it. I'm one of those who listen to a Coltrane song and go "huh?!". But your remark about being the outsider resonated with me. I recently read Burroughs' "Naked Lunch" which some say is just a collection of ramblings and shock for shock's sake (or literary masturbation) -- and granted, at times it felt like that. But at best, it reached these insanely inspiring heights that talked to me with power and rhythm, where I almost felt like it opened up a new sort of creativity in me. Almost as if something had been struggling inside, but then it found a similar sound (or soul) and started making its way out.
I have a list of some influential jazz albums that I've been meaning to listen, but they intimidate me, so I haven't. I'll check one out soon(ish) with this outsider thing in mind!
Re: copying Bird. It was so widespread, Charles Mingus wrote a song known as Gunslingin' Bird. Full title was "If Charlie Parker Was a Gunslinger, There Would Be a Lot of Dead Copycats"
Thanks for reminding me of that tune. It proves my point that copying was frowned upon back then. Today it is rewarded.
I've played many forms of music as a very average keys player, including jazz. I gravitate towards jazz because I like the intricacies, the harmonies and I'm an improviser. But all forms of music are equally valid for their own reasons and I don't value one above the other. I used to play in a Jethro Tull tribute; currently I'm in a ska band which is technically much simpler but no less important to get the right vibe. Great music comes from the heart, not the fingers.
"Jazz isn't dead, it just smells funny" ~ Frank Zappa
I was accused of being a "gate keeper" for telling Cannibal Corpse fans they really should be listening to Atheist or Pestilence instead, but in actuality it was my inner Jazz Conisaur coming to the surface, what a relief.
Not all jazz fans are snobby. I love jazz, I’ve seen Chick Corea, Wayne Shorter, and Miles. But for different moods I love Tool, The English Beat or The Grateful Dead. You’ve got to pick your spots.
Sometimes be-bop is the perfect soundtrack to your life, it's inexplicable. Those film-noir movies from the fifties love the bop. Apparently the French films, as well. Dabba - dop-ba-deedlee-oh-du-bop....
Nonsense. Most jazz musicians and most jazz fans are perfectly normal, approachable people. There are some outliers in all groups.
Lester Young invented cool and most of the hipster lingo that followed. He either first said it or it was first said about him. With the ‘Birth of the Cool’ session Miles codified Cool Jazz but that sound and the musicians that played it was greatly influenced by Lester Young!
Yes, I agree with this. This is a very good point.
What I like about bop guys playing over standards like the GAS etc is that it’s like a musical discussion about that tune.
elitism is a cultural indicator of a higher social class, upper middle class or middle class wanting the supposed exclusive cultural qualities of the UMC. In Europe, since the 80 s its become more generalized IMHO.
without data, it's not possible to be confident about these opinions. But looking at the ticket prices of Jazz festivals and the dress code, and behaviour of the jazz public in my country you can make sound speculations I believe
Hard to know without data but looking at the price of the tickets, the attires and behaviors of the public at Jazz Festivals in my EU country allow for a sound guess
Hi, I think a lot of what you said is right-on, and this is a topic that I've not seen addressed before on RUclips, so it was interesting to listen to. I've been a jazz musician my entire life (straight-ahead, bebop and the great standards), playing professionally whenever I can, (but always secondary to a "main income" source).. I wanted to just add an idea to your already excellent analysis: I feel that in many cases, the way that jazz elitism can create antagonism and ill feelings stems from unfair (and unnecessary) COMPARISONS with other types of music that may not be as complex or sophisticated.. In my own case, I love 1950's rockabilly and also doowop vocal group harmony recordings of the same era.. Clearly those music types are much simpler than jazz, but when I listen, I'm not comparing those genres to jazz, and vice versa. When I'm listening to the solid backbeat of a rocking Gene Vincent and the Blue Caps tune, or the Five Keys singing one of their classic ballads, I'm not thinking, "man, why doesn't this swing?", or "wow, what a stupid, harmonically simplistic guitar solo!"... I dig it for what it is. And it WORKS the way it is (a jazz guitar solo in a rockabilly tune wouldn't fit).. So bottom line, we should all like what we like, but not seek to diminish other genres via comparisons... I think some classical music fans/musicians may be guilty of the same...
My local jazzers won't let anyone sit in and there's no decent jam session nearby. So I play in a rock n roll band and its made me a better player.
When 15 I moved to a new town which was a culture shock. At that time i discovered jazz *a deliverate act). This was the early 70s and I was hoovering up the burgeoning jazz rock scene and also getting to love Ornette Coleman, Monk, etc. Jazz worked for me musically but also gave me a feeling of elitism or superiority which helped my given or acquired outsider status. Anyway, now when i go to jazz gigs I just hear essentially, Trane, Becker copyists and a pervasive elitist atmosphere or certainly a lack of shared knowledge that we're listening to tired, derivative music. Im still a jazz fan but am more drawn to for example the music Steve Lamacq plays on Radio 6.
I must be stupid, because Jazz doesn't move me, it merely impresses me.
I'm sure there is some moving jazz out there. But it's okay though if you can't find it. There are other genres of music that can provide both perceptions.
And what about the folkies who booed Dylan when he played electric folk or folk-rock?
I can't tell you how many people have put their head in my front door shouting "Hey, it's the Fonz!" - I run outside to look and it's just some guy in a rainjacket. God damn kids. These days, I don't even look up.
Liars
2 comments. As a fan but not a musicologist I think Jazz died when getting the approval of rarefied critics became more important than respecting the audience.
And, wrong moustache, it needs to be a 70s Zapata moustache or a Nick Cave bad MF'er truck driver 'teaches.
Gabriel Marcel pointed out that one of the chief fallacies in Modernist thinking (and Bebop is Modernist to its core) is the equation of knowledge with technique, as if knowledge could be "bought at a chemist."
This very true. The cultural mindset of the BeBopper does not exist anymore. Post Modernism destroyed the condept of high art through form
@AndyEdwardsDrummer Yes, the emergence of Modal and Free Jazz certainly reflects a more postmodern mindset, and Hard Bop is almost a regression (although not in a negative sense) to forms more reminiscent of folk music, specifically the Blues. Further, though, Bebop took a Modernist (technical) approach to improvisation. The notion of playing through changes is the epitome of reducing spontaneity to formula. The impetus for the emergence of later forms was specifically the intuition that beauty is not reducible to formula (Da Vinci and Fibonacci aside).
Jazz Snobs? - Is that like "Honest politicians", "Happily Married", "Jumbo Shrimp"..............
Cool video, I think jazz is like the kid who likes to take something apart and put it back together. Then it becomes your own basically just the tinkers of music 😅
Take it all in, "JAZZ, NEW & OLD" .COUNTRY, POP, R&B, FUNK, SOUL, FUSION, LATIN, CLASSICAL...If it's going to help you to become a better player, then it's all good
17:11 lol -- FZ had that quote about how without deviation from the norm, progress isn't possible
Comes down from the top -thanks to snobby MUSICIANS!! Too cool for school...
In short, how jazz stopped being jazz
I like bad jazz and I don’t care. Great chat Andy.
Same here
I like both "bad" and "advanced" jazz. But a lot of pretentious jazz is boring cr*p too, so just like in any other style really.
@@herrbonk3635 yes I agree. A piece of music can check all the boxes on the master list of what makes music good but I may not love it, and vice versa. Last week I heard an old lounge band on a private pressing playing jazz very badly. The band was out of sync and the tempo was all over the place, the singer was going off pitch but the emotion behind it was so real it nearly made me cry.
good thoughts, andy. you are obviously not a snobby, dogmatic jazz fan and taking the piss out of such people is fair game, IMHO. as a former musician and jazz critic at the toronto star newspaper, i've encountered many people who do think that way.
one problem is that, like the evolution of any artform as you suggest, an inevitable byproduct of the "jazz movement" is that a scholarly discipline and historiography develop around it. and a "mythology" develops. eventually the purveyors and practitioners alike get caught up in preserving the sanctity and purity of the paradigm. inevitably, because we are human and egos and subjectivity are involved, over time the mythology splits into different factions and the camps debate the "true" tenets of the movement. what constitutes "true jazz" is at the heart of most debates over jazz.
but, truth be told, at its most complex, vanguard level -- like avant garde art or high-end literature, etc. -- jazz has become almost non-understandable to all but the most learned, and sometimes snobbiest, purveyors and practitioners.
in my own experience, jazz musicians, and musicians in general, might be the only ones who really "get" jazz -- not feel it viscerally or understand it intellectually, but fully appreciate the technical and emotional processes involved in making it. yet, musicians tend to be the least snobby jazz fans.
by its very nature, jazz encourages -- no, demands -- "free" thinking. so naturally it attracts "free" thinkers. but it's the non-musicians who tend to form the bulk of the "snobbish" set that drives much of the "discipline" of jazz and zealously guard their version of the creation myth. not helpful.
ironically, at the risk of sounding elitist, in my experience the non-musician jazz fan almost always feels that they lack one crucial ingredient -- the ability to play the artform -- and they tend to defer to the jazz musician as the more "authentic" voice in the jazz debate. some don't admit it, but that is their world view.
as a free-thinking person and musician, you will never succumb to the vulgarities of the jazz elite. to you, and me, it is just another beautiful artform that should be treated with respect and should encourage innovative thinking, not dogma and elitism.
You wanna talk SNOB? enter any door at Berklee. Even the DOORKNOB looks down on you . ( let’s rename it DOORSNOB) 😅😅
Some of Coltrane's music sounds like a strangled duck.
great video!
subbed
Speaking as the son of a very good Jazz trombonist and drummer, yes my Dad could be a terrible snob when comparing his art form to other genres, until you caught him tapping his feet to something 'pop' like Abba. Jazz has sufficient complexity to allow fans to lord it over others if they choose, but I also get the feeling that it was resentment of Rock 'n Roll's success that motivated them.
More please 😊
What is hip?
-Cannonball Adderley
Simple answer? Because it's been academicized, politicized (to an extreme point) and marginalized as an elite musical form thanks to Marsalis, Crouch and Burns.
I was there when the college movement started. It was great to see the music get respect. Now, it's been captured by the elite class, who ossify everything they touch into museum pieces.
It's still a living music, still evolving. That's a fundamental part of the music.
Nice!
Elitism is another word for tribalism
Equity is another word for Tribalism
@@AndyEdwardsDrummer It isn’t. Your dictionary is broken. Toss that one out and buy new, fully-functional one with a good warranty. Could happen again.
@@AndyEdwardsDrummer dont forget dei ruins everything
Perfect example here- we are listening to your intelligent talk and an ad with Rap music and loud interrupts us. And they wonder why we become exasperated snobs?
Art is becoming more and more democratic, given the wide spread of art styles among the population - musicians, artists, writers, poets, film, dance, etc. Art is not elitist, though perhaps in the past. Now more and more can engage in their artistic skills. In fact there are too many books, too many paintings, too many albums, too much of everything to the point where you materially know it is now an arty populism.
Let less and less people know how to play an instrument, let alone know how to read.
Can you please talk about folk music?
I'm an early Rolling Stones snob.
Gabor Szabo was a great outsider who did their own thing.
What about guys like Charlie Mingus who took all traditional stuff from various corners of jazz, rolled it up in a ball and came out with genius. .....genius which was still jazz. He didn't have to come out with something completely new and maybe foreign to jazz and then insist "you" call it jazz. All music faces some "confines" and those confines focus not like puritan inhibitions out of the past but rails to a train.
Jazz fans always talk about it in the academic sense to the point where it just comes off as elitist or pretentious. Appreciating technique is fine but I mostly just shut up and enjoy the music. Could care less what key it’s in or scale they play nor can I read music. It’s music, and like any other type, it’s about a feeling.
One other thing to add, I suppose jazz is a version of dyslexic music, to those that don't get it. My ex used to say it sounds like jazz artists are all playing together but are all playing a different tune to the other players.
I'm a big Jazz fan, but I wouldn't say I am snobby. I only differentiate between Good Music & Bad Music. But when I hear Bad Music, I need to turn it off or I will throw up.
Cliff Webb played with the best, then he died. what a life.
So the cycle is that a new art form pops up (such as jazz), and a lot of people hate on it because it's different. But people eventually warm up to it, codify it because of how awesome it is, then take it to amazing heights (skill and content wise). Then all that codification and progress becomes the new norm, and the "way things should be." So someone comes along and tries to do something new and unheard of, which seems to go against the way things should be, and people hate on it. And the process repeats from there.
Plus, there's the "people think I'm listening to noise, but they just don't understand" aspect as well. (Personally, I think this is an okay take, but the elitists went about it the wrong way. It's possible to have this type of view without it becoming elitism; it's called being open minded and "live and let live." No tea, no shade. This way, you like your stuff, but you don't have a problem with others disliking your stuff because you accept their views.)
Did I get the gist of the video, or did I miss something?
I thought classical music fans were snobbish. Jazz tends to exhibit a superior feeling over other genres. Peace & love
If you can't be a snob about jazz, what can you be a snob about?
Jazz Snobs
Just a blues note, here. Listen to Mike Bloomfield play a slow blues like Albert's Shuffle on Super Session (side one is perfect if you ignore Man's Temptation) - Michael, a blues master will play one or two or three notes with bends, big ones and little ones, that create infinite microtones between the notes. Listen to B.B. King sing and play, same thing - infinite microtones. 5 notes in the pentatonic scale, infinite notes in between. Shakuhachi (traditional Japanese bamboo flute) - same thing, usually in minor keys. Here's Japanese blues - ruclips.net/video/dBlRJcK6qFg/видео.html. I call the Japanese approach "one note perfect", like Albert King (loves single notes teased into infinite forms).
You could put colkege-aged Phish fans from the early/mid-1990s in the same snobbery category. Those guys were obnoxious, and in their minds, no other band was any good at all except for Phish, and there were no other musicians on the planet who could play their respective instruments as good as the members in Phish. I used to get so annoyed at college parties when I found myself stuck in a conversation with a die-hard, mushroomhead, Phish fan...so damn snobby, and typically worse than even the music college jazz cats, especially considering the fact that they didn't even play any instruments themselves.
I've always thought that "cool" has its roots in the myth of the nobile savage that goes back at least to Tacitus in Germania.
Interestingly enough, something similar happened in classical music during the Romantic era. Bach was considered to be genius when he died, but the cult of the genius surrounding Beethoven did not yet exist. I find that the genius of pre-Romantic composers is underrated (except for Mozart) because they always compose with a listener in mind. Therefore, their compositional genius is often understated and subtle. I have to say that I listen to Haydn far more often than I listen to Wagner, who was during his lifetime the apotheosis of the "artistic genius."
I find a lot of genius in pre-bop jazz, and I listen to it a lot. Bebop and post-bop are just too damn demanding for me much of the time! I do not repent and I do not apologize.
Ok, here's a question for the real jazz music theorists. What about a guy like Oscar Peterson? I know he's doing some amazing and subtle stuff on the keyboard, but I find his playing to be accessible. I have even introduced OP to some people who profess not to like jazz, and they dig him. What's going on there?
Peterson was a true professional and I found him complimentary to the bandleader as a sideman and he did a fine job on every occasion. But do I want to hear him as the leader or solo? Not so much.
I have to say that I do love jazz, but certainly not all of the music that seems to fall under its umbrella. There is some that, while I find it pleasant to listen to, does eventually make me feel that maybe they should have wrapped it up a few minutes ago.
Then there's the various flavours that try just a bit to hard to be "art". I've always said that if you consciously think your creating art, you ain't creating art. I heard a Chick Correa (spelling?) cut (or the first few seconds of it lol) which started promisingly enough, with a rather pretty piano intro, but all of a sudden he was joined, or perhaps attacked is a better word, by a group of other musicians who seemed intent on playing anything they damned well pleased. Sorry, it wasn't musically challenging, or "experimental"*, or art by any definition. A certain young jazz singer once sang, "You ain't got a thing if you ain't got that swing." That sort of jazz ain't got no swing, sorry.
Having said that, I often half-seriously tell my guitar students (I teach rock guitar) that if they mess up and play something noticeably wrong or off, just say you're playing jazz and nobody will know otherwise, especially jazz enthusiasts lol. Whenever I mention that in a forum on the internet, you 'd perhaps not be surprised at the near riots I cause 🤣
* When you see the the word "experimental" to describe a jazz piece or artist, run like hell.
Vout-o-Reenee, daddio...!! ☝️😎
When Benny Goodman was chosen because he was a white band leader for the national jazz radio program. The Jazz critics call the music sophisticated and intelligent. Those adjectives had never been used for Count Basie or Chic Webb..... The classical musicians were snobs and white Jazz critics brought that snobbery over into jazz. Jazz musicians on a whole are down-to-earth.
Yep...I think that is true.
@@drsrsv8884 Oh yeah Mozart died comfortably and a multi-millionnaire. Ah no he died in poverty and was buried in a common grave... Bach had to hold a job where he was looked down upon and had to create hours of music per week plus teach and play... Beethoven suffered through his illness and Schubert too and they barely heard their compositions played and if they did it was once and that was it. But there is a monopoly of suffering apparently and it can only belong to one type of people.
Is that a rhetorical question? Because the answer is all the talking.
IU would say..the lack of any soul in their playing and in their hearts?
I can't think of anything more snobbish than describing yourelf in the third person.