@@justacentrist4147 Its the same in the US. Public lands are owned by either the federal government or state government. What you are allowed to do on it depends on what that section of land is used for primarily. National forest (lumber) , wilderness areas (protected), BLM (Bureau of Land Management) land (free use just respect nature). However even the national forest and wilderness areas will permit certain recreational activities and hunting depending on the time of year.
@@bondvagabond42 lots of single shot rifles as well. and even people using old muskets and muzzleloading rifles. Because they were plentiful and cheap. There are historical accounts of people using cap lock guns well into the early 1900s. Also 30-30 wasn't introduced untill 1894 after the old west period was effectively over. Most lever guns were either pistol caliber or chambered in bigger straight wall black powder rifle cartridges
@@twilightzone39 That was referencing the british people unable to deal with felt recoil, not the built for hobbits comment. Just to clear things up, mate
The increased felt recoil on the Ithaca is likely due to a sharper angle of the forcing cone. A lot of especially older American shotguns have a short forcing cone, as much as only 0.5 inch, with a steep angle. British shotguns of the period seem to always have slightly longer forcing cones. Nothing like the 4 inch forcing cones being specialty cut by specialty gunsmiths for competition shooters now, but even a marginal change to the angle of the forcing cone can really affect the perception of recoil.
@@gabrielsturdevant9700 choke is usually the term used for the narrowing of the barrel near the muzzle, I am referring to the narrowing of the barrel just in front of the chamber.
@@gabrielsturdevant9700 it's not a term most people would encounter unless they either went down a rabbit hole of firearms design or personally had a problem with them (like erosion from firing overloaded shells burning way too hot, which isn't common). In rifles and pistols, that part of the barrel is called a throat, and given that most bullets are tapered for aerodynamics, the throat can be the same as the forward part of the chamber - you want a short throat so the projectile engages the rifling almost as soon as it leaves the cartridge. The forcing cone in shotguns generally only changes the diameter of the barrel less than the wall thickness of a shotgun shell. That's subtle and most people would never notice or look for it. Part of the reason forcing cones were so short in guns from the turn of the last century is designers of the time considered, with some justification, that it simply did not matter. It was only around the 1980s-1990s that competitive shooters even started to consider that forcing cones might be related to felt recoil. Even still, manufacturers haven't adopted long forcing cones because unless you're shooting hundreds of shells in a day the payoff isn't worth the investment.
@@davidray6962 ive built a few black powder kits and am familiar with the term, i just didnt know the taper of the barrel was known as a forcing cone, it makes sense now, its quite hard to detect
I am so surprised that guns (any gun) is that affordable in the UK. As an American my view and I assume most people believe it is very hard to get a gun and when you do it is super expensive. Glad to know our British gun enthusiasts have some affordable options
To get a shotgun like this is very very easy in Britain. You just been to apply for a shotgun certificate. It's shall issue, you don't need a reason, there is a police visit, you need two safes (one for ammo one for the gun), one referee and a Doctors note but once you get those it's fairly easy. Costs like $100. The only problem is some counties issue the certificates in three months some are so overwhelmed it can literally take years.
People seem to forget that there were many US companies making exquisite grade sxs shotguns during that period. Lefever, Ithaca, Parker... made shotguns built to last but were as ornate or more so than your Ithaca. They built the 'agricultural' versions for the common man but in essence would build you whatever you wanted or could afford. Sadly, the great depression along with Browning's 1897 and A-5 along with Johnson's Winchester model 1912 pushed those fine manufacturers to the brink. 100+ plus years and she's still a pretty girl. She has seen an active life and I salute her previous owner(s) for using her as she was intended.
I would like to see that as well. Actually fix both of them up and sell them both over here in the US and see how they fair. I would say sell them both in their own country but you got such a good deal on the Ithaca I am not sure that would be a fair game.
Are you sure the Ithaca is 2-3/4” chambers? If it’s old enough to be Damascus, it might be 2-5/8” chambers. That could account for the additional recoil
For metric audience, I think you are talking about 12ga/70mm and 12ga/65mm. The 12ga/65mm is rare now, because almost everything is chambered 12/70 or above. Even my old Buhag Suhl side by side (Made in DDR) is 12/70.
Yes, they’re rare. I have a Remington 1900 from about 1906 that’s a 65mm chamber. My understanding is that it was common in the US in the late 19th century and early 20th century. Not sure if export models were also the short chambers. But the shorter chambers can cause a spike in pressure causing more felt recoil. Might be worth a quick check with a set of gauges.
As an American, I truly enjoyed and appreciated your review. It was quite fair, and in-depth. I'm glad to see there is still a bit of gun culture across the pond. I hope you can come visit and shoot to your hearts content here.
"John Wilkes".??????.....Really? Wow, I can just imagine some guy from Virginia using one and shouting, "Sic semper tyrannis" As he knocks birds out of the air. Bit of inside humor for Southern Americans. Also, someone remind me to fly to the UK the next time I want to pick up an older American gun; because, well, DAMN.!. THAT WAS CHEAP.
I own a C.G. Bonehill SxS 10 bore " Hammer gun , made in Birmingham , England 1875. I have a Fox Sterlingworth 12 bore made in the US in 1911. A Borgeshi SxS 12 bore made in Italy in 1964 and lastly a Stevens 311A SxS in 16 bore made in 1962. I hunt with them, and love each one for the reasons that each have very positive features.
Johnny thanks for yet ANOTHER cool video! Ithaca, Lefever, and Baker/LC Smith were all built in the same general region of NYS. Smith and Lefever were in Syracuse for a while. Ithaca was about 35-40 miles South of them. Workers from each factory would tend to "migrate" depending on business situations. Take a look at engraving from all three and you will see different patterns but generally similar styles. Lefever was eventually bought by Ithaca.
Man it still blows my mind how big a difference in pricing there is. It’s hard to find a decent quality field grade box lock for less than 1500 in the US, and if you want anything other than a 12g it’s even more.
@@cleverkitsune4302 He is talking about good side by side. They are very hard to find cause most companies stopped producing them in the 60s when over unders took over in the early 60s.
As American. My collection has a fair number of Ithacas. Anything graded or sub guage is quite collectable. In most cases though the field grades are pretty well used.
Ithaca is by far my favorite shotgun manufacturer with their history and designs, as well as being (somewhat) local to me. I think I have 4 of them, and I'm always finding more that speak to me...
It makes me sad when I look for a classic SxS in the States, you're met with a pile of 'had the snot shot out of if' with a price tag reflective of "I know what I got - no low-ball offers!" Only to see across the pond, Brits saying 'Meh' to them not being of the finest British ilk and selling them dirt cheap! I wouldn't be sad if someone wants to box them all up and send them home where they belong.
Of course we do. There are over half a million people who own shotguns in Britain, they aren't all the super rich. Your average farmer (or farmer's mum) is not going to spend that much on a shotgun.
If you’re close enough to Louisville Kentucky they have a large gunshow few times a year, that usually has a few , I bought one there about 10 years ago, just need to know realistic prices before you go, most are extremely overpriced .
Holts Auctioneers in the UK. You can see lots of videos on this channel. Unfortunately import/export costs are high, unless you do a few guns at a time to spread the costs out. I figure about $2000 for import/export and shipping.
This is the most British gun video that’s ever been created I’d bet. There’s no rock and roll or tannerite. Just a good ole chap speaking like a gentleman about fire arms.
I didn't even know Brit gun RUclips was a thing. VERY different beast from the perspective of a U.S. hunter. I've never even really thought about the design aspects of my old break actions. Or the racks and racks of them in the used gun stores. When there's all these new fancy hunting rifles, ARs, pistols, etc. everywhere... It's easy to kinda overlook the basic bare bones tried and true tools we pick up every Turkey season. Great video.
Hello friend! American here. When you said, "American guns were designed to put food on the table," you are not wrong. I inherited that exact shotgun from my great grandfather, who used it to put food on his family's plate during The Great American Depression. And I know he used them to put food on table for my family because I was also able to find 2 boxes of Remington paper bird shot shells, that my Great grandfather has used to convert birdshot shells into wax slugs/ whammy shells. The gun dated back to 1919 and the shells were from 1929. My grandfather used to tell us stories of how my great grandfather used make those shells because he couldn't afford Slugs or Buckshot.
One thing about England that I like is that they still use these guns for what they were meant for. Guns like this in North America would get cleaned up and end up left in a collector's case.
@@showtime1235 I have an ak and ar15 in my safe on top of a few handguns. Why would I buy a side by side shotgun ? We can get ar pattern shotguns that are magazine fed
I think the wider separation of triggers is because when you're shooting for sport you're in more comfortable weather but when you're shooting for food you tend to be doing it in all weather even when it's too cold for sports shooting so people tend to use gloves more
Ithaca tried may action designs over the years. The Crass didn't last that long, Ithaca graded guns had good wood fancy checkering. The $1000 or Sousa grades are truly works of art, American guns of that era tend to have a lot more drop at heal than most Brit guns, that makes for more felt recoil. Most of our hunting is what you would term rough shooting. 2 3/4" 12 ga chambers were standardized early on. Big loads and tight chokes are the norm.
Hard to believe the value of the Ithaca is so low there! I picked up a AYA #3 that came out of the UK for $600 USD, that’s in wonderful shape, Ana a AYA Yeomen, in rougher shape for $400.
There is a glut of older used guns here, and only a limited market of people who can buy them (500k). The right thing, in the right condition from the right maker is still worth great money.
Cool video showing the differences. I have my great grandfather's double barrel SxS 12ga Central Arms. I have not shot it in awhile due to it liking high brass shells better . The shorter aluminum base expand and make it hard to open. I should take out this weekend. It has a nice thump to it and call it thumper now lol. GOD Bless you and your families
Interesting comment about American Damascus. I don't think that Damascus barrel blanks were ever made in the USA, but perhaps you know otherwise. They were usually Belgian. The flower pattern you see may be the "stars" pattern. I have forgotten which Belgian company made them but they were intended for the US market. I hope your barrels were reproofed in Britain. The increased recoil you felt might have reflected short chambers. Ithaca would provide guns with a variety of chamber lengths to suit the customer for higher grade guns, but 70 mm didn't become standard for 12 bores until late (1930's?). I'm sure you know the chamber pressure differences when 70 mm shells are used in 65 mm chambers. 2 5/8" chambers were very common in 12 ga. American guns in the Damascus period.
@@General_Eisenhower1945 If you have a reference, please post it. I think that all Damascus gun barrels (completed and blanks) were imported and usually from Belgium, of course. Even at the end of the Damascus period, Belgium alone was producing 50 tons/yr. and most of those went to the US.
Ive got a ithaca model 37 featherweight in 16 gauge or bore for you brits lol and absolutely love it for upland hunting and small game in general... been having a itch to take it out for some clays and see what score i can get with it.... my grandfather bought it after coming home from the Korean War ive been told and it was passed down to me after his passing
Here in the US, The most common 'Utility grade' boxlock you'll see is probably a Stevens 311 of some variety. Cannot tell you the price on them, since they're usually ahnd-me-downs and heirlooms and 'here, hunt with this' sorts of weapons.
I can tell you in Canada, depending on the shape of the gun. A 311 will go for around 300-600 CAD on average. I can't imagine it wouldn't be to dissimilar in USD, maybe 400 at the most?
Quality workmanship from both countries,no doubt. I give the English guns a higher score in terms of style and handling but still prefer the American guns .... I suppose affordability, availability,and loyalty are some top reasons
I'm from Ithaca, and am now a student in the UK funnily enough. Ithaca Gun Company's quality has been immaculate through just about all of its history, and employs artisan gunmakers to this very day, albeit in Ohio rather than in New York now. Their firearms were favored by several historical figures to include Annie Oakley. Also back when they were still in operation in Ithaca, if you knew an employee, you were allowed to put in special orders for handfitted gold or platinum plated parts or engraving/inlays, among other custom requests. They also fulfilled government contracts and produced 1911s, 1911A1s, and Ithaca Model 37s during WW1 for the former and WW2 and Vietnam for the latter two, very rarely one will pop up through the Civilian Marksmanship Program and demand the highest prices among collectors due to their quality and rarity. The original Ithaca Gun Company factory has long since been closed and demolished, except for the smoke stack, I wish they would have kept it as a small museum. I'm hoping to stay and work here in Wales after my studies, and eventually once I am allowed to get a shotgun certificate or firearms permit, I'm really hoping to get my hands on an older manufacture Ithaca 37, assuming those are legal here as the old models are slamfire capable. But its also really cool that some of their older models such as the one in this video go for so cheap here.
That video was way to short! I could watch videos of classic hunting arms all day! What’s interesting to me is the American doubles were probably better suited to your driven game while you’re British lighter weight, faster handling doubles were actually better for our (USA) walked up game. In fact, I bought a British double for just that reason. Although like you mentioned, it’s definitely stocked for shooting game overhead. But like you, I’ve used enough shotguns that if I throw it up a few times, it’s fine for going away birds, if not ideal 👍🏼
Fascinating comparison. The second hand/private market in the states typically allows you to find firearms for lower prices. I'm from the rural Midwest where private sales and trades are very common.
That is one beautiful piece you got there! Cheapest gun you can get though is like 20$ on Amazon, single shot typically like .22 caliber weapons that I wouldn’t trust, even if I’m expecting it to kill me when I shoot it
still keeping my springfield model 5100 alive, may replace the barrel because the latch was somewhat worn upon purchase, but im glad it has held up for so long.
It's still to this day, a very good way to source food. In fact, I'd say there is too many deer running around in the northwest because our ancestors killed the wolves off. That and no one goes hunting anymore.
I've noticed many people commenting that americans would never use "such a nice gun" I disagree! I am American, we are not all the same.. I would gladly use either without putting a ton of investment into it. I believe guns, and cars for that matter; are MEANT to be shot, and MEANT to be driven. I would give these guns the life they have become accustomed to over their history and not lock it away. You will find many American citizens who view the C&R market similarly. If the guns, or the cars died in my ownership; they will die as they lived, doing what they 'Love'.. The gun working and representing what it does is far more than enough for me; and growing up a poor man I have no interest in buying them up, wiping them with diapers, then locking them away; and especially not obtaining them fixing them then attempting to scalp some poor guy over the price.. Hot wheels and trading cards return on investment far quicker than that; and those are what I would lock up.
My granddad was born in ireland lived in ireland Until he was nineteen and came to america He went Poaching for food, most of his life. Probably shooting british guns both were meant to get food And both were meant four sport
One thing I will say, in my experience, when it comes to double barrel shotguns, there are very few American options for a budget price. The vast majority of inexpensive double barrel shotguns come from Brazil or Turkey. Once you get over the $1,000 price point, American brands start getting more and more common, but under that price point, American double barrels are like hen's teeth. That said, we do have some really good, really affordable pump shotguns. The Mossberg Mavericks are available brand new for often less than $250, and they're excellent guns.
Ithica, Baker, L.C. Smith, Stevens, etc. How about a higher-grade A.H. Fox (XE grade), something like a Purdey or H&H? I wonder how they perform against each other.
As an American, I’ve been around so many firearms, from pistols, rifles and shotguns all from the best to the worst. I’ve collected Mil surplus I’ve assembled my own AR 15s even refurbished some family hand downs but, to get one’s hands on a Parker or ithica sxs is one rare and also unbelievabley expensive. Nice to see a good old American shotguns from close to one hundred years ago still popping clays or pigeons over in jolly ol’england.
Not sure if it's the same in America, but in Canada - imported classic German shotguns are INSANELY undervalued. You can pick up a beautiful Merkel, Simson-Suhl, or JP Sauer for often less than $400 CAD (~$300 US or ~£235). Or a gorgeous, scoped drilling by the same for around the $1500 mark (~$1100 USD or ~£875). And that's this year - a couple years ago, you could find them (at least the side-by-sides) for half that price.
imo, hard comparison because sxs guns in US are an extremely niche market now. outside of old hand me downs, sport clubs, and upperclass hunters, SxS aren't even common anymore. they are second to pumps. loved the comments on the difference in culture and use
Surely you could have just checked the value of the gun in America? And bought the cheapest one in regards to their rate? As you said yourself, you’re buying a higher quality American one because the rates aren’t high in the UK
I know nothing about guns but that antique shotty made in London for a couple hundred quid sounds like an incredible deal. I thought guns like that were thousands.
The straight "english" stock? My pick for an upland game double. For an auto loader or a pump gun a pistol-type grip works best, esp when single slugs are used on large game.
the recoil is definitely more on the usa one because the barrel is less heavier meaning its able to go up higher than the british one since the british one has a heavier barrel
its not actually, owning shotguns in the uk are extremely easy, just visit the local police station, say you want a gun, get a license then walk to a gun store and buy a shotgun and leave with it
If you wanted to examine a more modern era but inexpensive, utilitarian American double that were still widely used consider the Stevens 311 or Savage Fox Model B. Heavy, a bit crude, but they sold a lot of them as they got the job done.
The 311A's seem to have higher quality wood/finish than later models. I'm assuming they just keep making them cheaper and cheaper as the years went on.
So im an American, i don't know what a pound is worth and I had no idea britsh people have guns. However with the fact I haven't watched far into this video im interested in what british gun culture is like if it exists.
Yes you are correct in your assessment yet I do want to add that the British firearm wasn't that bad and performed really well. I'm a man from the states and can say that there was very little difference between the weapons with the exception that the American weapon handled the gas pressure better which resulted in a greater kick.
American here...not an expert,but from what i gather, most British guns go thru a proof house. I'm pretty sure the Ithaca has been proofed. Did you use a lower pressure shell/ load in the Ithaca? The general rule in the states is that Damascus barrels are related to wall hanging status. Before everyone jumps on me, I am aware that some individuals load black powder shells,and I've seen a couple articles about low pressure smokeless shotshell reloads. I do have personal knowledge of a couple individuals firing 2 3/4(70mm) baby mags in their damascus doubles, but that was because of necessity. The only way to use a damascus barreled gun on a U.S. range is to install sub-gage tubes. The question is then, when in the U.K. , when you go to a shop to buy shells, you look for the correct gage, chamber length, shot size and payload. Is there the added variable of L.U.P. , CUP, PSI, Tons or Bar?
You have made me want to take my old Ithaca out , an old “ field gun “ I bought it for near nothing 130.00 US because some “ yahoo” had the receiver chrome plated and one of the barrels is flawed But it seems to shoot well 20 Ga and super light weight . If I can get the chrome plating taken off the receiver I’d be proud to carry it clay shooting anywhere, and certainly bird hunting , even with the gaudy chrome .
I shot alot of clays whislt the wife got her degree at Cambridge. I do have to say the shells used never bruised my shoulder in the same way that they do at home in the U.S.. I understand why you might want a slightly less powerfull shell what with less area to shoot and not wanting to sling lead farther. Still, the difference was wildly different.
I’m an American “fowl-hunter” but I use a pump shotgun. But we do have rules here to protect the environment, like bag limits and that we can only load 3 shells (2 in the lug, 1 in the chamber). I eat everything I hunt. On occasion I’ve accidentally shot something I didn’t eat because I mistook it for something I wanted to eat, but I can count those times on one hand, and I fed it to the wild animals. We humans are a part of nature and the cycle of life, too. The exception here are the Rattlesnakes, which are plentiful pests. They are considered “shoot-on-sight.” Even so, other snake species are protected here as well as the Gila Monster; which is a beautiful but potentially dangerous Lizard. They aren’t aggressive, though.
Jealous of you being able to get a cheap side by side, here in America the cheapest shotgun I could get that wasn't a single shot was a Turkish pump action that kicks like a mule. Still, a good deal for the $189 it was listed at
You need to go to the South of the US! You've never seen gun culture until you've met a rural Apician, or a Coonass. They hunt for food, but their aim is unreal. There's the common figure BillieBob who's a Southerner that can shoot the wings of a fly at 200 yards with a 44 magnum revolver. This is not exaggeration. But yeah, that gun isn't particularly American. It's far more common to see a Mossberg 88, which you can get new for $293, but most people get it at a pawn shop for $90. Take a look sometime, you'd be really surprised.
That's insane to me that y'all can get such a nice double barrel for such a steal there in the UK. That's an Antique over here! My dad has a Sears(?) 16 gauge side by side that's very old and a blast to shoot. I agree actually like the English checkering a lot more
The Ithaca absolutely did not fit you at all. Designed for “Hobbits” cracks me up. Little work using your exceptional skills…it world likely make a great back scratcher for someone of your stature. 🤷♂️
I don't know why people don't think of this.But a gun is a tool for us americans. A lot of us consider it a tool not a weapon. Just like any other tool.If you miss use it you can get hurt or someone else can get hurt.
no you see it as a weapon, brits, Scandinavians and the swiss see them as tools for hunting and sport, people do not see them as "self defense" weapons
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“American guns were designed to go out and get food” spot on mate. Especially the shotguns.
Exactly. It became the people’s land for us to hunt and England is still the the kings land and therefore hunting is more sport
@@Ace0Spades17 in Canada we hunt on Crown land (ie public land) it belongs to the crown but is for our use
@@justacentrist4147 Its the same in the US. Public lands are owned by either the federal government or state government. What you are allowed to do on it depends on what that section of land is used for primarily. National forest (lumber) , wilderness areas (protected), BLM (Bureau of Land Management) land (free use just respect nature). However even the national forest and wilderness areas will permit certain recreational activities and hunting depending on the time of year.
In the "wild west" it wasn't all liver action 30-30's and 6 shooters, it was way more budget single shot shotguns.
@@bondvagabond42 lots of single shot rifles as well. and even people using old muskets and muzzleloading rifles. Because they were plentiful and cheap. There are historical accounts of people using cap lock guns well into the early 1900s. Also 30-30 wasn't introduced untill 1894 after the old west period was effectively over. Most lever guns were either pistol caliber or chambered in bigger straight wall black powder rifle cartridges
“American guns were designed to go out and get food” Yeah, last time I tried that both the Judge and Taco Bell were quite pissed off at me 😂😂😂😂
Were you usin' the proper huntin' techniques? Poaching burritos and tacos isn't hunter friendly behavior, friend 🤣🤣🤣🤣
@@Jakob_The_Stoic_Norseman Before you judge me, That was one beautiful taco and burrito pair with Mtn Dew 😁😁🤣🤣🤣
I’ll never forget when I bagged my first Baja blast at my local Taco Bell…
Most American comment I've read in a long time. God bless you, sir!
“They’re both built for Hobbits” caught me off guard
“Before we see a revolution in the comments” got me lmao
@@twilightzone39 That was referencing the british people unable to deal with felt recoil, not the built for hobbits comment. Just to clear things up, mate
The increased felt recoil on the Ithaca is likely due to a sharper angle of the forcing cone. A lot of especially older American shotguns have a short forcing cone, as much as only 0.5 inch, with a steep angle. British shotguns of the period seem to always have slightly longer forcing cones. Nothing like the 4 inch forcing cones being specialty cut by specialty gunsmiths for competition shooters now, but even a marginal change to the angle of the forcing cone can really affect the perception of recoil.
's called a choke
@@gabrielsturdevant9700 choke is usually the term used for the narrowing of the barrel near the muzzle, I am referring to the narrowing of the barrel just in front of the chamber.
@@davidray6962 i was not aware they were in there, ill go check my guns
@@gabrielsturdevant9700 it's not a term most people would encounter unless they either went down a rabbit hole of firearms design or personally had a problem with them (like erosion from firing overloaded shells burning way too hot, which isn't common). In rifles and pistols, that part of the barrel is called a throat, and given that most bullets are tapered for aerodynamics, the throat can be the same as the forward part of the chamber - you want a short throat so the projectile engages the rifling almost as soon as it leaves the cartridge. The forcing cone in shotguns generally only changes the diameter of the barrel less than the wall thickness of a shotgun shell. That's subtle and most people would never notice or look for it. Part of the reason forcing cones were so short in guns from the turn of the last century is designers of the time considered, with some justification, that it simply did not matter. It was only around the 1980s-1990s that competitive shooters even started to consider that forcing cones might be related to felt recoil. Even still, manufacturers haven't adopted long forcing cones because unless you're shooting hundreds of shells in a day the payoff isn't worth the investment.
@@davidray6962 ive built a few black powder kits and am familiar with the term, i just didnt know the taper of the barrel was known as a forcing cone, it makes sense now, its quite hard to detect
I am so surprised that guns (any gun) is that affordable in the UK. As an American my view and I assume most people believe it is very hard to get a gun and when you do it is super expensive. Glad to know our British gun enthusiasts have some affordable options
Guns as a rule are semi affordable but the licencing is a ruddy pain as are ammunition prices
To get a shotgun like this is very very easy in Britain. You just been to apply for a shotgun certificate. It's shall issue, you don't need a reason, there is a police visit, you need two safes (one for ammo one for the gun), one referee and a Doctors note but once you get those it's fairly easy. Costs like $100. The only problem is some counties issue the certificates in three months some are so overwhelmed it can literally take years.
@@davedavids57You forgot to mark the easy part as sarcasm.
@@davedavids57you really had me going!
@@davedavids57not true, they denied my application for BS reasons citing a reason wasnt clear enough.
People seem to forget that there were many US companies making exquisite grade sxs shotguns during that period. Lefever, Ithaca, Parker... made shotguns built to last but were as ornate or more so than your Ithaca. They built the 'agricultural' versions for the common man but in essence would build you whatever you wanted or could afford. Sadly, the great depression along with Browning's 1897 and A-5 along with Johnson's Winchester model 1912 pushed those fine manufacturers to the brink. 100+ plus years and she's still a pretty girl. She has seen an active life and I salute her previous owner(s) for using her as she was intended.
I would love to see you restore this gun and take it to America with you and see what you could get for it🙂
I love that idea
I would like to see that as well. Actually fix both of them up and sell them both over here in the US and see how they fair. I would say sell them both in their own country but you got such a good deal on the Ithaca I am not sure that would be a fair game.
I’d like to see you take it in your hand luggage 😂
Are you sure the Ithaca is 2-3/4” chambers? If it’s old enough to be Damascus, it might be 2-5/8” chambers. That could account for the additional recoil
For metric audience, I think you are talking about 12ga/70mm and 12ga/65mm. The 12ga/65mm is rare now, because almost everything is chambered 12/70 or above. Even my old Buhag Suhl side by side (Made in DDR) is 12/70.
Yes, they’re rare. I have a Remington 1900 from about 1906 that’s a 65mm chamber. My understanding is that it was common in the US in the late 19th century and early 20th century. Not sure if export models were also the short chambers. But the shorter chambers can cause a spike in pressure causing more felt recoil. Might be worth a quick check with a set of gauges.
As an American, I truly enjoyed and appreciated your review. It was quite fair, and in-depth. I'm glad to see there is still a bit of gun culture across the pond. I hope you can come visit and shoot to your hearts content here.
"John Wilkes".??????.....Really? Wow, I can just imagine some guy from Virginia using one and shouting, "Sic semper tyrannis" As he knocks birds out of the air. Bit of inside humor for Southern Americans. Also, someone remind me to fly to the UK the next time I want to pick up an older American gun; because, well, DAMN.!. THAT WAS CHEAP.
Deo vindice brother
Deo Vindice
Yall still malding over losing your non-country?
@@Ramonatho Still sending bummers after married women and young girls?
I don't think John Wilkes Booth was from Virginia I think he was from Maryland. But He rode with the South though. Lol 😂
I own a C.G. Bonehill SxS 10 bore " Hammer gun , made in Birmingham , England 1875. I have a Fox Sterlingworth 12 bore made in the US in 1911. A Borgeshi SxS 12 bore made in Italy in 1964 and lastly a Stevens 311A SxS in 16 bore made in 1962. I hunt with them, and love each one for the reasons that each have very positive features.
Johnny thanks for yet ANOTHER cool video! Ithaca, Lefever, and Baker/LC Smith were all built in the same general region of NYS. Smith and Lefever were in Syracuse for a while. Ithaca was about 35-40 miles South of them. Workers from each factory would tend to "migrate" depending on business situations. Take a look at engraving from all three and you will see different patterns but generally similar styles. Lefever was eventually bought by Ithaca.
That Ithica is a steal. i would want that bad.. Ithica has a storied past...
Man it still blows my mind how big a difference in pricing there is. It’s hard to find a decent quality field grade box lock for less than 1500 in the US, and if you want anything other than a 12g it’s even more.
Bullshit, you can buy stoeger coach guns for less than 200 bucks
@@cleverkitsune4302 He is talking about good side by side. They are very hard to find cause most companies stopped producing them in the 60s when over unders took over in the early 60s.
@@cleverkitsune4302US made, not Turkey.
@@zacharyrollick6169and plenty of rebranded Turkish. Both CZ and RIA are just Huglu
that’s because in america you can find good cheap pump action and semi auto shotguns
As American. My collection has a fair number of Ithacas. Anything graded or sub guage is quite collectable. In most cases though the field grades are pretty well used.
Ithaca is by far my favorite shotgun manufacturer with their history and designs, as well as being (somewhat) local to me. I think I have 4 of them, and I'm always finding more that speak to me...
john wilkes.... Booth??!?! USA INTENSIFIES!!!!!
pre civilwar REEEEEEEE
Or 'That Devil Wilkes'? UK politician and founder of the 'Hellfire Club'?
JWB was actually a first generation American, his dad was a British actor who moved to the US after a sex scandal.
It makes me sad when I look for a classic SxS in the States, you're met with a pile of 'had the snot shot out of if' with a price tag reflective of "I know what I got - no low-ball offers!" Only to see across the pond, Brits saying 'Meh' to them not being of the finest British ilk and selling them dirt cheap! I wouldn't be sad if someone wants to box them all up and send them home where they belong.
Sounds like they are where they belong according to your description of "care".
I didn’t know the UK had affordable doubles. All you ever hear about in America are H&H or Purdey and they cost as much as a house
Of course we do. There are over half a million people who own shotguns in Britain, they aren't all the super rich. Your average farmer (or farmer's mum) is not going to spend that much on a shotgun.
@@WJS774 Next level reference lmao
Best places to buy UK based guns online for us in USA please and Thanks
If you’re close enough to Louisville Kentucky they have a large gunshow few times a year, that usually has a few , I bought one there about 10 years ago, just need to know realistic prices before you go, most are extremely overpriced .
@@MegaRiffraff I'm in Kentucky, I meant for import
@@matthewdeepblue,Try watching his videos on Holt's Auctioneers,If you find a gun and win the bid they will help you with importing.
There's a UK site called guntrader
Holts Auctioneers in the UK. You can see lots of videos on this channel. Unfortunately import/export costs are high, unless you do a few guns at a time to spread the costs out. I figure about $2000 for import/export and shipping.
This is the most British gun video that’s ever been created I’d bet. There’s no rock and roll or tannerite. Just a good ole chap speaking like a gentleman about fire arms.
I didn't even know Brit gun RUclips was a thing. VERY different beast from the perspective of a U.S. hunter. I've never even really thought about the design aspects of my old break actions. Or the racks and racks of them in the used gun stores. When there's all these new fancy hunting rifles, ARs, pistols, etc. everywhere... It's easy to kinda overlook the basic bare bones tried and true tools we pick up every Turkey season. Great video.
Hello friend! American here. When you said, "American guns were designed to put food on the table," you are not wrong. I inherited that exact shotgun from my great grandfather, who used it to put food on his family's plate during The Great American Depression. And I know he used them to put food on table for my family because I was also able to find 2 boxes of Remington paper bird shot shells, that my Great grandfather has used to convert birdshot shells into wax slugs/ whammy shells. The gun dated back to 1919 and the shells were from 1929. My grandfather used to tell us stories of how my great grandfather used make those shells because he couldn't afford Slugs or Buckshot.
The UK does not have ANY semi auto designs? Man I wish we had those old guns for $25 back here at home.
Semi auto is restricted except 22lr.
@@ravioli_826Wrong. Semi auto shotguns are legal.
3shot semi auto on a shotgun licence. Section 1 firearms licence allows semi automatic multi shot shotguns (I have a 10 +1 12guage Winchester S
X3).
@@andrewbayram765 wow didn’t know that.
@@andrewbayram765sweet.
One thing about England that I like is that they still use these guns for what they were meant for. Guns like this in North America would get cleaned up and end up left in a collector's case.
What the fuck are you smoking? Only yuppies do that
tbf we have way more options to own. and with better semi shotguns on the market only fudds will buy these
Only a collecter would buy a gun that's not as effective for actual use, that's just the way it is.
that’s probably because americans own guns for different reasons and can own better guns than a double barrel
@@showtime1235 I have an ak and ar15 in my safe on top of a few handguns. Why would I buy a side by side shotgun ? We can get ar pattern shotguns that are magazine fed
I think the wider separation of triggers is because when you're shooting for sport you're in more comfortable weather but when you're shooting for food you tend to be doing it in all weather even when it's too cold for sports shooting so people tend to use gloves more
Ithaca tried may action designs over the years. The Crass didn't last that long, Ithaca graded guns had good wood fancy checkering. The $1000 or Sousa grades are truly works of art, American guns of that era tend to have a lot more drop at heal than most Brit guns, that makes for more felt recoil. Most of our hunting is what you would term rough shooting. 2 3/4" 12 ga chambers were standardized early on. Big loads and tight chokes are the norm.
I may be wrong but wasn't the Sousa grade gun built by LeFever?
Ithaca 37 reigns supreme
Baikal 12g, side by side, box-lock, double trigger, ejector, 28" barrel, I got mine second hand mint condition £40
I love my British brothers
We love you too brother
Thank you for this video. It was really interesting seeing a perspective from the UK on gun design and shooting methodology!
Hard to believe the value of the Ithaca is so low there! I picked up a AYA #3 that came out of the UK for $600 USD, that’s in wonderful shape, Ana a AYA Yeomen, in rougher shape for $400.
I don't mean this to be obtuse, but you guys get robbed on everything. I feel like i am being robbed blind when i go to america and spend.
Nice vids as usual. Great to see the differences in style and the evolution of the guns depending on the need for the game being shot! Interesting...
The british-made guns I’ve shot have all been excellent. I’m sure the lower end guns suffer from the same issues that lower end American guns do.
My granddad used a pair of Ithacas for clays and a Fox 16 for upland game. He never felt the need to upgrade.
Could someone kindly explain why these guns go for so much less in the UK than in the US? Is it due to fewer buyers in the UK? Thanks.
There is a glut of older used guns here, and only a limited market of people who can buy them (500k). The right thing, in the right condition from the right maker is still worth great money.
@@tgsoutdoors Thank you
@@tgsoutdoorsbro that comment about heading to a playground to try them out 💀
@@anthonyparisi2386I believe he said, “CLAYground”
Cool video showing the differences.
I have my great grandfather's double barrel SxS 12ga Central Arms. I have not shot it in awhile due to it liking high brass shells better . The shorter aluminum base expand and make it hard to open.
I should take out this weekend. It has a nice thump to it and call it thumper now lol.
GOD Bless you and your families
Interesting comment about American Damascus. I don't think that Damascus barrel blanks were ever made in the USA, but perhaps you know otherwise. They were usually Belgian. The flower pattern you see may be the "stars" pattern. I have forgotten which Belgian company made them but they were intended for the US market. I hope your barrels were reproofed in Britain.
The increased recoil you felt might have reflected short chambers. Ithaca would provide guns with a variety of chamber lengths to suit the customer for higher grade guns, but 70 mm didn't become standard for 12 bores until late (1930's?). I'm sure you know the chamber pressure differences when 70 mm shells are used in 65 mm chambers. 2 5/8" chambers were very common in 12 ga. American guns in the Damascus period.
I think early 1897 shotguns were made with American Damascus steel, not many. If you mean just sxs ignore my comment
@@General_Eisenhower1945 If you have a reference, please post it. I think that all Damascus gun barrels (completed and blanks) were imported and usually from Belgium, of course. Even at the end of the Damascus period, Belgium alone was producing 50 tons/yr. and most of those went to the US.
@@General_Eisenhower1945 There were American fluid steel barrels etched to look like Damascus for marketing purposes.
this bloke shooting a gun that is older than the country comparrison and deminishing us folk lore! i love it!!!
The ithaca model 37 that slam fires in 12 ga makes a great brush gun.
Surreal seeing SxS break guns in a RUclips video
guntubers have spoiled me.
You see them more often with the Euro guntubers, because they use them for hunting quite a bit more
Ive got a ithaca model 37 featherweight in 16 gauge or bore for you brits lol and absolutely love it for upland hunting and small game in general... been having a itch to take it out for some clays and see what score i can get with it.... my grandfather bought it after coming home from the Korean War ive been told and it was passed down to me after his passing
Here in the US, The most common 'Utility grade' boxlock you'll see is probably a Stevens 311 of some variety. Cannot tell you the price on them, since they're usually ahnd-me-downs and heirlooms and 'here, hunt with this' sorts of weapons.
I can tell you in Canada, depending on the shape of the gun. A 311 will go for around 300-600 CAD on average. I can't imagine it wouldn't be to dissimilar in USD, maybe 400 at the most?
@dwi2921 Probably about that, depending on area n'such.
I’m from the U.S. my Shotguns of choice are Pump Action Shotguns and I own 2 Shotguns the M1897 Riot Shotgun and the Remington M870 both in 12g.
Quality workmanship from both countries,no doubt. I give the English guns a higher score in terms of style and handling but still prefer the American guns .... I suppose affordability, availability,and loyalty are some top reasons
I'm from Ithaca, and am now a student in the UK funnily enough. Ithaca Gun Company's quality has been immaculate through just about all of its history, and employs artisan gunmakers to this very day, albeit in Ohio rather than in New York now. Their firearms were favored by several historical figures to include Annie Oakley. Also back when they were still in operation in Ithaca, if you knew an employee, you were allowed to put in special orders for handfitted gold or platinum plated parts or engraving/inlays, among other custom requests. They also fulfilled government contracts and produced 1911s, 1911A1s, and Ithaca Model 37s during WW1 for the former and WW2 and Vietnam for the latter two, very rarely one will pop up through the Civilian Marksmanship Program and demand the highest prices among collectors due to their quality and rarity. The original Ithaca Gun Company factory has long since been closed and demolished, except for the smoke stack, I wish they would have kept it as a small museum. I'm hoping to stay and work here in Wales after my studies, and eventually once I am allowed to get a shotgun certificate or firearms permit, I'm really hoping to get my hands on an older manufacture Ithaca 37, assuming those are legal here as the old models are slamfire capable. But its also really cool that some of their older models such as the one in this video go for so cheap here.
That video was way to short! I could watch videos of classic hunting arms all day! What’s interesting to me is the American doubles were probably better suited to your driven game while you’re British lighter weight, faster handling doubles were actually better for our (USA) walked up game. In fact, I bought a British double for just that reason. Although like you mentioned, it’s definitely stocked for shooting game overhead. But like you, I’ve used enough shotguns that if I throw it up a few times, it’s fine for going away birds, if not ideal 👍🏼
How hard it is to get in to hunting in UK if you dont own land or if you are just a normal bloke?
Know thy place peasant ! ;-)
It’s a question of building contacts, or having a few quid spare to purchase access.
Not as easy as other countries but much easier than most.
Fascinating comparison. The second hand/private market in the states typically allows you to find firearms for lower prices. I'm from the rural Midwest where private sales and trades are very common.
An enjoyable and informative video, beginning to end. Of course, that is what we have come to expect from you every time. Well done.
That is one beautiful piece you got there! Cheapest gun you can get though is like 20$ on Amazon, single shot typically like .22 caliber weapons that I wouldn’t trust, even if I’m expecting it to kill me when I shoot it
still keeping my springfield model 5100 alive, may replace the barrel because the latch was somewhat worn upon purchase, but im glad it has held up for so long.
I am 67 years old. I grew up in the American Pacific Northwest. I hunted for food weekly from 12 to 23 years old. I still enjoy hunting.
It's still to this day, a very good way to source food. In fact, I'd say there is too many deer running around in the northwest because our ancestors killed the wolves off. That and no one goes hunting anymore.
4:51 😂 knew I was comin did ya ? Good on ya.
I've noticed many people commenting that americans would never use "such a nice gun" I disagree! I am American, we are not all the same.. I would gladly use either without putting a ton of investment into it. I believe guns, and cars for that matter; are MEANT to be shot, and MEANT to be driven. I would give these guns the life they have become accustomed to over their history and not lock it away. You will find many American citizens who view the C&R market similarly. If the guns, or the cars died in my ownership; they will die as they lived, doing what they 'Love'.. The gun working and representing what it does is far more than enough for me; and growing up a poor man I have no interest in buying them up, wiping them with diapers, then locking them away; and especially not obtaining them fixing them then attempting to scalp some poor guy over the price.. Hot wheels and trading cards return on investment far quicker than that; and those are what I would lock up.
“ Market Hunters Gun “ I see that we have had a slight influence on you since you’ve been coming over here. We look forward to having you back !
Does the Ithaca have intercepting safety? The pins high up behind the fences might hint at that.
My granddad was born in ireland lived in ireland Until he was nineteen and came to america He went Poaching for food, most of his life. Probably shooting british guns both were meant to get food And both were meant four sport
One thing I will say, in my experience, when it comes to double barrel shotguns, there are very few American options for a budget price. The vast majority of inexpensive double barrel shotguns come from Brazil or Turkey. Once you get over the $1,000 price point, American brands start getting more and more common, but under that price point, American double barrels are like hen's teeth.
That said, we do have some really good, really affordable pump shotguns. The Mossberg Mavericks are available brand new for often less than $250, and they're excellent guns.
that kick your feeling is freedom... lol
🤣😂
Americans thinking they're free is the funniest thing.
Ithica, Baker, L.C. Smith, Stevens, etc. How about a higher-grade A.H. Fox (XE grade), something like a Purdey or H&H? I wonder how they perform against each other.
a.h. fox wins out against everything
As an American, I’ve been around so many firearms, from pistols, rifles and shotguns all from the best to the worst. I’ve collected Mil surplus I’ve assembled my own AR 15s even refurbished some family hand downs but, to get one’s hands on a Parker or ithica sxs is one rare and also unbelievabley expensive.
Nice to see a good old American shotguns from close to one hundred years ago still popping clays or pigeons over in jolly ol’england.
As an American i found this channel interesting and i didn't understand the differences in our shooting culture.
You can saw off the 30 in barrel to make an 18" conceal under your coat gun.
Not sure if it's the same in America, but in Canada - imported classic German shotguns are INSANELY undervalued. You can pick up a beautiful Merkel, Simson-Suhl, or JP Sauer for often less than $400 CAD (~$300 US or ~£235). Or a gorgeous, scoped drilling by the same for around the $1500 mark (~$1100 USD or ~£875). And that's this year - a couple years ago, you could find them (at least the side-by-sides) for half that price.
German guns are in a similar way here.
imo, hard comparison because sxs guns in US are an extremely niche market now. outside of old hand me downs, sport clubs, and upperclass hunters, SxS aren't even common anymore. they are second to pumps. loved the comments on the difference in culture and use
Both of these guns are beautiful i like how you view them fair and point out the uniqueness of them both
The cheapest American double is (was) the Stevens 311.
I like the Black Hawk Down reference, " This is my safety..."
Surely you could have just checked the value of the gun in America? And bought the cheapest one in regards to their rate? As you said yourself, you’re buying a higher quality American one because the rates aren’t high in the UK
I know nothing about guns but that antique shotty made in London for a couple hundred quid sounds like an incredible deal. I thought guns like that were thousands.
Great video. I wonder if the comparison would have more value if the guns were both new.
unfortunately that would have cost me a lot more!!
As I say I think a
British / American collaboration would turn out to be a beautiful firearm in the context we are talking about
The straight "english" stock? My pick for an upland game double. For an auto loader or a pump gun a pistol-type grip works best, esp when single slugs are used on large game.
the recoil is definitely more on the usa one because the barrel is less heavier meaning its able to go up higher than the british one since the british one has a heavier barrel
still less hassle to own and use both in America but im happy to seeing u have fun with em
its not actually, owning shotguns in the uk are extremely easy, just visit the local police station, say you want a gun, get a license then walk to a gun store and buy a shotgun and leave with it
@@datcheesecakeboi6745not a hassle at all
@@9mmSurpressor no not really, I'd say its worse in the US depending on the county
If you wanted to examine a more modern era but inexpensive, utilitarian American double that were still widely used consider the Stevens 311 or Savage Fox Model B. Heavy, a bit crude, but they sold a lot of them as they got the job done.
The 311A's seem to have higher quality wood/finish than later models. I'm assuming they just keep making them cheaper and cheaper as the years went on.
So im an American, i don't know what a pound is worth and I had no idea britsh people have guns. However with the fact I haven't watched far into this video im interested in what british gun culture is like if it exists.
A pound is worth about $1.20, our gun culture is a lot smaller than America's because of our stricter laws but it's definitely still a thing.
Thing is, would you want to load that"wildfowler looking" gun with wildfowl cartridges ?
My only problem with British guns is that they can’t make one that doesn’t leak oil.
😂😂
I completely found this channel by accident I didn't think y'all had this
JC, which make is the coat you are wearing? Thanks.
Yes you are correct in your assessment yet I do want to add that the British firearm wasn't that bad and performed really well. I'm a man from the states and can say that there was very little difference between the weapons with the exception that the American weapon handled the gas pressure better which resulted in a greater kick.
American here...not an expert,but from what i gather, most British guns go thru a proof house. I'm pretty sure the Ithaca has been proofed. Did you use a lower pressure shell/ load in the Ithaca? The general rule in the states is that Damascus barrels are related to wall hanging status. Before everyone jumps on me, I am aware that some individuals load black powder shells,and I've seen a couple articles about low pressure smokeless shotshell reloads. I do have personal knowledge of a couple individuals firing 2 3/4(70mm) baby mags in their damascus doubles, but that was because of necessity. The only way to use a damascus barreled gun on a U.S. range is to install sub-gage tubes. The question is then, when in the U.K. , when you go to a shop to buy shells, you look for the correct gage, chamber length, shot size and payload. Is there the added variable of L.U.P. , CUP, PSI, Tons or Bar?
Olive Mill I am a little biased towards the fencing I do like it to be more pronounced and I can't explain it other than Aesthetics
Shot the Beneli super black eagle, it’s technically an Italian gun but they are very popular in America
technically like - its 100% undeniably made in Italy?
Interesting comparison. Thanks for sharing
You have made me want to take my old Ithaca out , an old “ field gun “ I bought it for near nothing 130.00 US because some “ yahoo” had the receiver chrome plated and one of the barrels is flawed
But it seems to shoot well 20 Ga and super light weight . If I can get the chrome plating taken off the receiver I’d be proud to carry it clay shooting anywhere, and certainly bird hunting , even with the gaudy chrome .
Now do cheapest Turkish side by side if you please.
I shot alot of clays whislt the wife got her degree at Cambridge. I do have to say the shells used never bruised my shoulder in the same way that they do at home in the U.S.. I understand why you might want a slightly less powerfull shell what with less area to shoot and not wanting to sling lead farther. Still, the difference was wildly different.
British Garand Thumb doesn't exist, British Garand Thumb can't hurt you
I’m an American “fowl-hunter” but I use a pump shotgun. But we do have rules here to protect the environment, like bag limits and that we can only load 3 shells (2 in the lug, 1 in the chamber).
I eat everything I hunt. On occasion I’ve accidentally shot something I didn’t eat because I mistook it for something I wanted to eat, but I can count those times on one hand, and I fed it to the wild animals. We humans are a part of nature and the cycle of life, too.
The exception here are the Rattlesnakes, which are plentiful pests. They are considered “shoot-on-sight.” Even so, other snake species are protected here as well as the Gila Monster; which is a beautiful but potentially dangerous Lizard. They aren’t aggressive, though.
Is Ithaca still in business?
They are, yes. Not a big company today, but still there, 125 years later.
Jealous of you being able to get a cheap side by side, here in America the cheapest shotgun I could get that wasn't a single shot was a Turkish pump action that kicks like a mule. Still, a good deal for the $189 it was listed at
You need to go to the South of the US! You've never seen gun culture until you've met a rural Apician, or a Coonass. They hunt for food, but their aim is unreal. There's the common figure BillieBob who's a Southerner that can shoot the wings of a fly at 200 yards with a 44 magnum revolver. This is not exaggeration. But yeah, that gun isn't particularly American. It's far more common to see a Mossberg 88, which you can get new for $293, but most people get it at a pawn shop for $90. Take a look sometime, you'd be really surprised.
That's insane to me that y'all can get such a nice double barrel for such a steal there in the UK. That's an Antique over here! My dad has a Sears(?) 16 gauge side by side that's very old and a blast to shoot. I agree actually like the English checkering a lot more
Thicker wool , hunting clothing would extend the reach when shoulderd , especially when these guns were a modern disign .
Great video!! Could you show us the differences for the internals?
The Ithaca absolutely did not fit you at all. Designed for “Hobbits” cracks me up.
Little work using your exceptional skills…it world likely make a great back scratcher for someone of your stature. 🤷♂️
I was expecting an American guy, this is refreshing
I don't know why people don't think of this.But a gun is a tool for us americans. A lot of us consider it a tool not a weapon. Just like any other tool.If you miss use it you can get hurt or someone else can get hurt.
no you see it as a weapon, brits, Scandinavians and the swiss see them as tools for hunting and sport, people do not see them as "self defense" weapons