I love how realistically Bojack Horseman portrays apologies and forgiveness. Sometimes it's genuine, sometimes it's a manipulation tactic, sometimes it's only for yourself, sometimes it's none of those things. I enjoy how it reflects on real life.
Not only that, but it's probably one of the only shows that acknowledges, regardless of which one it is, people aren't obliged to accept them or forgive you. Sometimes the damage is done and you just have to live with it
😊 Josh from Chapman is a lawyer. He would be a great Hollywood lawyer if he is taken emotionally cared for. Truly. you would find it astonishing as to how much the world can become better if we took more emotional care of our established and licensed lawyers
The montage on the apologies is hard to see. It gets worse and worse. It’s not that Bojack DOSNT feel guilty, but I the more I think, “wait which apology is true?” And it’s more that Bojack is the one who keeps saying that. And bojack keeps doing this routine of messing up his friends’ lives even if he didn’t intend to, then insulting them, then saying “oh your better off away from me” (which is true), then doing ludicrous “apology” acts to reel them in. Bojack had every opportunity to be a good perosn and/or make up for his crap. He didn’t need to treat his friends as crap. He didn’t need to go with his ex’s underage daughter to prom and then..to the boat. He didn’t need to kiss charlotte.. He could have went and supported Todd’s schemes. He could have supported secretariat’s director or at the least get her a job after she was canned. He didn’t need to follow holly to her college. In fact Bojack, many times he needs an apology, he continuously intrudes on private spaces. Which is connected to his treatment of women particularly young women.
When Todd told Bojack, "you can't keep doing horrible things and then feel bad about yourself like that makes it ok. You need to be better" that was an eye-opener for me. I'd been taught all my life that if someone says sorry, it's my duty to forgive them. Otherwise, I was at fault for holding a grudge. Hearing that line was the first time I felt like my lingering anger, hurt and resentment towards the people in my life who hurt me, apologised and then hurt me again, was actually valid. It's not good enough to apologise if you don't learn from your mistakes.
It reminds me of how certain groups believe that if you just apologize or “atone” for something bad then everything is okay. And you don’t even have to apologize to the person you hurt specifically, just apologize in general for what you did. Like no, you actually have to try being better. Feeling bad or saying sorry isn’t enough.
@KingOfGaymes yeah it's called actions speak louder than words you can say sorry all you want but to improve as a person is to actually do something about it. Saying sorry won't be a crutch when your track record is nothing but horrible decision after another horrible decision. Sorry becomes very meaningless and dull after that. "I'm sorry" ok was that supposed to change anything?
I think it’s cus Herb says it in such a validating way. He’s not being overly vicious or angry about it (at least at first, and then he gets justifiably mad when Bojack won’t accept how he feels), he’s just stating exactly what his boundary is. He does not need to forgive Bojack, and he knows it, and that justified self assurance is always pleasant to hear.
Because it's honest. A lot of times, people are pressured to forgive. Especially when the apology is genuine and sincere. But we always have the right to say, "no". We have the right, when being apologized to, to not accept that. To say, yeah, well I'm still hurt. And you aren't owed forgiveness.
@@tell-me-a-story- Not really. Herb was pretty satisfied with his life. He doesn’t need to forgive Bojack in order to move on: he lived the rest of his life without him. Herb died with a fulfilled life beyond Bojack, with a bunch of other people who ACTUALLY cared about him. You don’t need to forgive someone to move on. Sometimes you just… move on. Without them. And that’s fine.
@@gregjayonnaise8314 Exactly, I hate when people say that forgiving someone means you'll move on happily, and its not always the case, just because you forgive, doesn't mean you'll forget.
as if saying sorry is just some magical word that will make everything better. it takes actual change and effort to do better to make apologies meaningful.
😂😂😂😂 it's better that never apologizing.. my ex husband is just like Bojack horseman only HE NEVER apologize for nothing saying " I am like this, I don't have to change, and if people do like me it's their problem" that pissed me off😡😡😡 glad I got rid of that.. narcissistic man children am I right..
My dad and stepdad are like that. Except they never apologize or acknowledge they've done anything wrong. It infuriates me to no end bc I've had to deal with people like that my entire childhood.
Honestly... i hate hollow apologies more than just not getting one. Because I know that hollow apologies are done so the offended will shut up about it, not because they know they did something wrong. The apology isn't to make you feel better it's to make you drop the subject and expect it to never need to be brought up again. TLDR; A hollow "im sorry" is an insult. It's a quick way to shut someone up. "Im not actually sorry, but to get you to shut up i'll take the blame."
That's to real though! How many times we apologized to the person who hurt us when we needed to be apologized to?! I can't be the only one. I just can't 😢
She was probably thinking, like, "I interfered with his life and upset him by dumping his pills, I feel about that." Even if she was in the right and he admitted that he didn't NEED the pills and she was making her brother confront his drug addiction (a good thing), it's easy to feel bad about it, especially if you're a teenager with limited perspective and a lot of empathy, to think "when somebody apologizes, you should consider your own actions and apologize too."
The way I see apologies is that if you're truly sorry, you don't expect forgiveness from the people you hurt. Apologize SINCERELY, and do whatever that person wants from you (give them some space, never talk to each other again, etc.) They are the wronged party, they are the ones who make the decisions on your relationship now. Forgiveness is nice to have, but you can't force it. The thing with Bojack is that he's used to that television fictional "I forgive you right away because you're sorry and did this big gesture to prove it!" He can't handle when people don't give him resolution for something he knows he did wrong.
I think you’re on to something when you mention the “television” way of apologies. This is something that Bojack, knowingly or not, is doing when he tries to repair his relationships. He probably only knows how to mend relationships by way of the scripts he has internalized. And that is such a simplistic and reductive way of managing relationships because that’s what showbiz demands is portrayed. It’s easy to digest and is infantilizing.
@@dwcooke I think it's very intentional on how Bojack navigates relationships based on what he learnt from television. I think there's an analysis video from someone, but they do talk about how Bojack lacks a reliable adult figure in his life, so he spent all of his childhood watching and learning from television. That's why he always tries to compensate for his actions by doing big gestures. From television, he always correlates the grandiose of his actions to the chance of being forgiven/sincerity, so later on he always messes up relationships because he thinks no matter what he does, people will always forgive him when he apologizes 'sincerely', and surprised when he learns real life people don't work like that. Bojack is truly a masterpiece like that, every time you rewatch it you see a new layer of the story. Edit: Grammar
Realizing this ties into Bojack being raised by TV. In many sitcoms, the status quo is god. People can't grow too much, because then they won't be recognizable to the casual viewer anymore. They can't move out or cut out people, becuase then it wouldn't be the same. Hence, the grand gesture has to always work, but the character can't *really* develop.
Bingo! Hit the nail on the head. So much of how people act is internalized from TV, just like Bojack. I know some people in real life who straight up draw validation for their narcissism from TV shows and tropes
I’m presently staying at a Domestic Violence recovery center and your content has absolutely been carrying me through this. It’s helping me see so much. As a therapist, thank you.
That point that Bojack does to Sarah at 20:22 when he asks 'what did YOU do' was WILD, to put a child on the spot for something he had personally been responsible for. It feels very, VERY reminiscent of something his Father would've done. It wouldn't surprise me if he went through a similar conversation with him at some point.
That scene you pointed to is a classic example of what manipulative people do to evade responsibility for the things they do to hurt people. Every accusation is a confession. Sarah Lynne brought up Herb because she missed him and was sad about it. In order to save himself from taking responsibility for what he did to Herb he had to immediately put her on the defensive to derail the conversation, otherwise it might shift to it being about his fault. Then Sarah Lynn felt bad about bringing Herb up and it taught her to not bring him up again. Doing this to anyone is bad enough, but BoJack pulled this on a child.
One thing that always bothered me about Bojack's decisions is that Herb told him flat out that all he wanted was a call from his friend and right up until the end Bojack was still fixated on the show. He never mentions that he should have called or should have been a better friend. It all cycles back to the decision to not get Herb's back with the show. He tells Wanda that a network exec like her ruined his life. He learns from Angela that it was always his choice and he was being bluffed. But none of that would have mattered if he would have just picked up his phone and called his friend. It wouldn't have solved all of his problems but would have prevented a few of them.
Yes, but if Bojack had just picked up a phone and talked to Herb then he'd be admitting to Herb and himself that he made the conscious informed decision to choose his job over his friendship with Herb. Bojack would rather keep lying to himself then accept responsibility for his selfishness.
I never really saw it as BoJack's responsibility to keep Herb from getting fired either. Like, Herb was in the end arrested for public indecency, not for being gay (even if that for sure was part of it) and it's honestly quite selfish of Herb to expect Bojack to give up on his one chance on Hollywood because of his misstake. I think that’s why Bojack focuses in on the show rather than the calls. Because he wasn't in the wrong about the show, but he was in the wrong for not talking to Herb and giving empty promises. For not calling him, leaving him behind.
@@maximillian1109 I think the public indecency line is more of a reference to how things were at the time. In the 90s being gay was far less accepted than it is today and it definitely wasn't uncommon for queer couples to be victimized by the law for expressing themselves in public. There were crackdowns where people were arrested at gay bars or if they met up at a park before heading back to their place or a hotel. Most of the time all they were doing is making out and I saw that shit in SpongeBob when I was 6. It used to be pretty dangerous out there if you were gay. Which, I also happen to be so while that line might go over the head of some folks it's an aspect of our history I've done a little research into and recognized. I think a show like Bojack Horseman which also features 8 polyamorous dads and some excellent asexual representation not to even mention how great they are with time period jokes, is keenly aware of that and it's one of those things where if you don't know it could seem like something it's not.
I agree with everything you said but I was thinking about it and what stopped Herb from calling Bojack all of those years? I mean yes Bojack is the one who messed up their friendship and betrayed Herb but a phone call goes both ways and even if Herb was angry at Bojack eventually time heals most wounds and you learn to forgive. I have family like that when my dad died I was 15 years old and they all said how they'd be there for me well they were until they weren't after the funeral I barely talk to any of them and that was over 20 years ago and I was pretty mad about it for a long time because all I wanted was an occasional phone call or something and I truly felt betrayed and disowned but one day I woke up and just let my anger go and gave them a call and told them how I felt and felt better about myself because they can never say I didn't try. So Herb was in the right to be pissed at Bojack but a simple call either way could have mended fences who knows?
The “I don’t believe in deep down” moment from Diane really hit me. She was just underscoring what we already knew, and maybe denied, that there are some parts of people that just never change. Aren’t capable of changing. Therefor, “deep down” doesn’t exist as we’re such inherently flawed people.
I think it's less about change and more about how your actions determine what you are. Bojack can change. He can become a better person. He chooses not to. There is no good person deep down. Its only what he is on the surface that matters.
That's quite the pessimistic reading of that sentence. I thought it rather means that your actions determine who you are, thus you can be better by doing better.
I feel like Bojack wanted to feel like a good person instead of being one. And "deep down" was a way he felt better about himself without actually putting in the effort to change. He was capable of change, but I believe he chose not to (didn't go to therapy), ultimately because he only cares about his own pain and himself.
I think that deep down bojack is genuine when he says he is sorry, the problem is that bojack just continues doing the same mistakes over and over again.
Which is why Todd called him out on it in "It's you" "You can't keep doing this you can't keep doing shitty things and feel bad about yourself like that makes it ok you need to be better" Bojack probably did really feel bad for things he's done but instead of changing it he just keeps on hurting people so it's all just meaningless words until he decides he wants to change.
@@danieljackson2496 cuz is not feeling bad because he's hurting people, is feeling bad about himself and how that reflects on his image and how people react to him. He wouldn't mind hurting people again and again and again until the predictable outcomes happens. Like with Todd. He didn't mind treating Todd like shit until this one began distancing and not taking his shit anymore
I’ll always remember what my freshman year biology teacher told me when he caught me texting in class and I immediately blurted, “I’m sorry!” “Do you know what ‘sorry’ means?” “That…I apologize?” “That you’re not going to do it again.” I think that’s where BoJack fails. He feels bad and he wants to be forgiven, but truly none of that matters at all if you’re just going to repeat the behavior.
23:22 "Forgivness has to be earned" THIS. TOTALLY THIS. For a good part of my life, I had to deal with a person who had the same behaviors as Bojack when it came to apologies: All words and no real action. When I got tired and set a boundary, he wasn't happy and went back to his cycle: begging for forgiveness, promising to do better... And I have to admit that a mean part of my soul chose to give him a very Herb-like speech, which only made him angrier. I realized that he wasn't willing to change, so I told myself: If he doesn't change, this cycle isn't worth continuing. Fortunately, life is smiling on both me and him. Now that change I was looking for in him seems to be finally beginning to blossom, and without him even realizing it, he is slowly earning the forgiveness I denied him for years. I am just waiting for the right moment to show him that everything is already fixed between us. But ultimately, I will keep my distance: the years have taught me that we are much better off apart. Still, I wish him the best in his next step in life. I love you very much, brother.
Something about your comment feels off. From the specific way you compare yourself to Herb, to the way you explain how this person’s been changing, and your lack of communication on that part… it feels very uneasy.
@@littlemoth4956 First of all, English is not my first language, so if the grammar looks weird, I'm sorry about that. Second, when I compared myself to Herb, I was referring to that part of his speech: "Yeah, and I will not forgive you", not what he is. Third: I was not a good person to him. We were both horrible to each other, we had a lot of communication problems and our relationship is complex to say the least, I didn't want to dig deeper because the point of my comment is with that same phrase I quoted him with: Forgiveness is earned. I simply wanted to share my experience with something I have experienced closely, and the series really made me reflect a lot about it (even being the reason why I decided to set boundaries)
Honestly, sometimes the best way you can support someone to change is to set a firm boundary and walk away from them. Facing a real consequence like losing a good friend could have been the kick in the gonads he needed to wake him up to his unhealthy behaviour. Well done for stepping away and refusing to enable him 👏
@tell-me-a-story- if you dont feel sorry but dont do it again, you at least respect the other person enough to change your actions. If you do feel sorry but do it again, you don't respect the other person enough to change for them. The best scenario is to feel sorry and not to do it again, but that doesnt always happen between people.
my dad says this a lot, I don't think I've ever heard him say sorry, I also don't think I've ever seen him show remorse and try to change though, so I feel like some people just go halfway with it
Bojack seems to make everything about himself. He’s like his parents in that way. So he can’t take account or responsibility for how his actions affect other people. In that same vein, his apologies are also about alleviating his own discomfort, that’s what his friends eventually realise and confront him with.
I also think it raises a great point about redemption vs forgiveness, everyone has the capacity to change and deserves the chance to do so, but you aren’t entitled automatically to that chance from the people you’ve hurt and you aren’t owed forgiveness, ever
"I'm sorry, but" is my mother's catchphrase, she says it so often. Her apologies are never sincere. She's a bad person, and that's all she ever will be.
Same- something I'm scared of in myself is that I am starting to say the same things despite never wanting to be anything like my parents I'm doing what I can and better than the last decade of my life but I really don't want to sink to her level
I think him telling maude about All About That Ace was a genuine selfless act that reflected his growth. There was no way of telling if she would ever actually match with or date todd, but he knew his friend was looking, and she checked the same subtle ace flags as todd during her conversation. In my eyes it felt like a comedic spin on giving her todds phone number. He also didn't out her directly, and offered she check it out instead of directly assuming she was ace. It shows that bojack has been listening, he has learned how to have genuine empathy for todd, so he cares about those in the same boat as well.
I really loved "The face of depression" episode because it showed a different healthier side of Bojack who selflessly did things for his friends without wanting gratification like giving Diane advice about her depression meds and helping her clean her apartment just to be helpful and giving advice to PC about finding "her own PC" to take care of her and introducing Maude to Todd's asexual app and probably the most wholesome thing ever actually indulging Mr. PB with his crossover idea something previous seasons Bojack would have never done.
@@danieljackson2496 BJ cleaning her apartment was so relatable, I do that for my friends who are struggling. I understand that one persons molehill is anothers mountain, you don't see it when you're in it. I'm sure bojack felt the same way, once he pulled himself out of the rut he was in, he looked over to dianes rut and went "Ah, I know what that is." But instead of just seeing the rut and going "that sucks, best of luck" he offers her a boost.
I love how the show depicts narcissism thru Bojacks character. Narcissists will use “apologies” as a weapon that shields them from taking actual responsibility for their actions, makes them feel better about THEMSELVES and most frustratingly they “apologise” as a way to get sympathy. It’s never about what they did, or the person they are apologising to. It’s all about how it makes THEM look or feel. Amazing analysis btw!!
I never noticed this before, but on his white board where he's listing all the bad things he's done, he just wrote "Penny" by itself. Almost like he still doesn't want to say "I groomed a teenage girl because I was in love with her mother, and got her friend drunk AND abandoned that friend to avoid publicity" Like even when we get to the s06 marker board situation, he still has issues owning the bad things he did.
There's a big difference between sorry as in "I really feel bad about my actions and will work on doing better in similar future situations" and, the more common, sorry as in "please shut up about the bad thing I did so we can act like it never happened and have fun now"
yup, exactly, 1000%. Same issue with a chatgpt generated "apology" read robotically and a heart felt written one. Like Even johnny Somali vs Blitzo going "I want to incite racial violence" "I don't enjoy or want to be a good person" "I think i want to incite hatred and foster violence, it amuses me" "im gonna be a psychopath and get so many views haha" "I will never apologize, and i never will" "If you have a problem with my behavior, stop being a pussy and come change it Japan" (4 months pass of Johnny Somali harassing victims, intentionally ragebaiting mocking @!##!@ children who died in war) The "peaceful community that never bites" wants him to "dissapear" at 3 am and "knows where he lives". Respect is a 2 way street and it's kinda a horror to realize how much we take things for granted until it's gone.
If there’s one thing my mom ingrained in me as a kid it’s that sorry means “I won’t do it again,” if you’re not going to change your behaviour then don’t bother
19:37 you are wrong about Herb, BJ did not even bother to make an actual apology, he was just like "ehh uhh, you know, I feel bad, about, you know, the things". And then he was shocked Herb didn't grant him forgiveness on the spot. Herb literally went like "Oh, so you are apologizing?" like a Lawyer trying to make sure something is on the record.
Honestly this show is a masterpiece of great writing , it taught me as an autistic person that it’s is okay not to let people who have hurt me back into my life , and that actions matter far more than words. Herbs “I don’t forgive you” speech was so powerful and impactful to me.
as someone that hates confrontation with a burning passion, i think what you said about all of these examples of apologies really helping the audience in real life rings so true. i had a friend who would constantly do negative things and then when called out on it would “apologize” but then just continue doing the negative thing. for the longest time i didn’t know how to navigate that situation but i think subconsciously i realized from Bojack of all places…. its okay to not forgive. and as much as it saddens me… i don’t talk to that friend anymore. because all of those apologies were hollow apologies just so she could say she said sorry
The biggest issue with Bojack's apologies is that he never did it for the right reasons. With Herb, it was a performance done to clear his conscience. The PC, it was always a self-serving manipulation tactic (that she fell for without support.) That said, I don't think people who decided to forgive some of his flaws due to the circumstances should be made out to feel bad/stupid for doing so. Context matters, which is why so many hate it when you explain your actions; it makes it too hard to justifiably hate you.
1:32 "You okay? You look good." "Yeah the make-up covered my bruises- let's just do the interview" "I'm so sorry" Perfecr encapsulation of how post abuse sorries mean nothing. Its just make up- the bruises are still very much there.
I hate fake apologies, and I just start to reject them because a person doesn't stop making the same mistakes And of course they will think I am a villain, but its better than being friends with them
Rule of thumb: If they just say sorry, and forget the situation, they aren't. Sorry is wanting to fix or avoid the same pot-hole later on, learning the issue at hand. Being sorry is not saying a word. Same as "I love you". Anyone can say that. But not all of them can treat you right.
One of the most true and devastating things I've ever been told is, "no one cares that you're sorry." Because it's true - people don't care if you're sorry, they care if you do better and you can only do that if they give you the opportunity to do so. And hey, sometimes you don't get that chance.
And you can only fuck up once but after that you can't get anymore chances. There's only so many times you can fuck up before someone is done with you. No amount of apologizing can fix that.
Some people actually do care that you're sorry. You can't always do something to fix the issue or repair the relationship but you *can* acknowledge your part in it and own it and that is important to some people. It might be the only sense of vindication that person ever gets. My mother can't go 20-30 years back in time to fix the fuckups she made as a parent but she *can* own them, if she chooses to do so, and it would go a long way towards our relationship. I've had to own my fuckups and lose people over it before. Normal part of being human. If we were perfectly empathetic and perfectly rational this wouldn't even be a topic to discuss.
Thanks for this. Way too many people (mostly men) fail to recognize that you're not supposed to root for Bojack. You're not supposed to LIKE Bojack. And you're certainly not supposed to find him aspirational.
I find Bojack more as a cautionary tale than an aspirational character, like saying “That’s what happens if you keep living your life so careless and selfishly. You don’t wanna end up yourself like Bojack, do you?”
I mean he's certainly not aspirational. But he can be likeable and I think we're definitely meant to root for him. We root for him and that makes it even more devastating when he sinks lower and lower. We like him for the same reason the characters in the show like him, he does have a certain charm. Even though most of the time he is a huge asshole. And maybe his biting sarcasm and "brutal honesty" draws in the insecure people even more.
To all my “I’m sorry BUTTTTTT” people switch it out to “I’m sorry because I made you feel [insert emotion here].” Then put whatever was the reason you didn’t notice right away they were feeling that emotion with what specific actions you’ll do to do better. If you aren’t sure what you need to improve on communication is always a good start.
i am pretty happy that this show really helped a lot learn about honest apologies and is valued not always accept forgiveness everyone. i had living a lot on the mindset that you always have to accept forgiveness ,no matter what. which now ,i learned that is ok not always accept hollow apologies. amazing video man
I went through a lot of my life, like Bojack. It wasn't until after I asked my wife for a divorce that I really came to understand what truly being sorry and actually apologizing meant. It meant that I could apologize for hurting someone all I want, but if I truly want to be sincere about that apology, I have to deal with however they choose to treat me afterwards and change for the better. Truly being sorry means that you don't always get the closure that you want. It means that you learn to live with not being forgiven, but still putting forth the effort to treat someone with respect and abide by their boundaries. It means slowly working to erase the past behaviors that lead you to hurting someone. It means building habits that better yourself and the lives of people around you. Really, and truly being sorry means that you are willing to accept the fact that some people will never trust you again and you will never again be afforded the opportunity to gain from their trust and being content with that.
Since no one else has said it already I guess I'll take a quote from someone who is arguably worse than Bojack but has decided to change for good. 'Do not be sorry! Be better!'
18:54 “Sober… but still so much hangs over. Please believe me when I say I poured my whole past down the drain, say that a second chance is a chance I can take, but I can’t make amends for things I can’t remember, I can only say I’m sorry and occasionally pray. Guess you’ll just have to take my word that I’ve changed after 1825 days” - Half-Decade Hangover, a song by Will Wood
The least Bojack could have given Todd was a guest room and not getting rid of the old couch. The couch was Todd's bed, Bojack just got rid of it just because he "wanted a change".
This show has been completed years ago, but people are still analyzing it. That goes to show how thought-provoking Bojack Horseman is. It’s so much more than just adult animation comedy.
We cannot better ourselves if we have no hope for ourselves in the future. Damm that hit hard, being thinking about the state of world/society and how it will escalate in the future
Honestly that part of the show was the most frustrating one for me, on my family they treat an apology like a reality eraser, it's like we have to act as nothing happened, while growing up I had to even kneel a couple of times to ask for forgiveness and do extra chores because I made my sister mad and she wasn't going to accept my apologies until I do whatever she wanted, but if I was the wronged one then I had to accept the apology and be happy about it, I grew up accepting all since I would be the trash if I ever said "I don't forgive you", after the saw the show I remembered all those false and empty apologies... Honestly I hated Bojack and myself, in the last season I saw the example of how a person really tries to be better and that only made me cry, so since then I draw a clear boundary, even if people say I'm being petty or resentful, I already heard many empty words on my life to keep being ok with it, even my family says that I argue a lot but I'm in ot their carpet anymore
It's simultaneously wholesome and awful how much todd puts into friendship with Bojack, because Bojack values that so much but won't ever show it. I think Todd is far more aware than he let's on and he deliberately lets himself be the but of the joke because it puts people at ease, but bojack takes advantage. What could be seen as brutal burns from Todd just aren't. "I should stop expecting you to be better so i won't be disappointed when you're not" is him saying that he cares for Bojack so much that he doesn't want his own awareness of boj's shitty behavior to ruin their friendship. He gives and gives and gives to this man and it hurts me to see that destroy itself. And even down to the very last moment when there's so much distance between them two, Todd still talks to him like a friend, giving advice that makes a sad situation feel fun, and accepting a rude comment in good humor, while reminiscing on the good times with bojack. I'm glad Todd did find his way.
I absolutely believe in deep down because I’ve seen it, and so many of us have it. But sometimes deep down isn’t enough. But we need to be careful. When you’re always reminded that you’re a piece of shit, you start to believe you are. The best of us comes out when others believe in us.
my mother divorced my father because, despite of him being a good person and a good dad, he never changed. every time he hurt her or is, he would apologize and not change. he would do it again a week later. my parents were together for 30 years. he knew exactly how much it hurt her every time he would get angry and break things, scream and curse at us. and for 30 years she dealt with it with a smile because it was "better than violence", when it was in fact not. he would do it to her, to me, to my brother, to my grandmother. he never listened to me when i talked about the things i loved. he never took my mom to see a movie she wanted to see if he was not also interested in watching it. he didnt take us to the park, or on road trips, he never asked me what my favorite color was. when my mom gave him the divorce papers, he was shocked, genuinely shocked; he never, ever thought she would divorce him. why? because "i always apologize when i do something that hurts you and our kids". he always apologized. my mom almost gave up on the divorce, I almost gave up on leaving our home and moving out. but then i remembered Bojack, and how meaningless all his apologies were when he refused to change and stop hurting the people he loved. my father is still the same man. he still does not know my favorite color. i love him, as I always will, and I will care for him until his death, but I do not forgive him. and it's ok.
Bojack is a lot like our father. He has hurt all of his children but refuses to take full responsibility for that hurt, so we've done soft contact with him. His apologies have not yielded change and he stopped therapy and his medicines so to protect ourselves and family, he gets an occasional phone call and texts. I wish it was better. Our mom is gone, but this is how it stands for now.
Don't be sorry! You and your siblings had the uncommon and good sense to defend yourselves from a destructive and irrational presence. You people deserve a trophy: other people just wallow and drown in such filth.
That point you made near the end about this show sort of "teaching" the audience how to pick up on these behaviors from people in real life is completely accurate, at least for me. I had a moment with an ex-friend where I looked at our relationship and realized it felt like the Todd and Bojack sort of dynamic, and that's when I finally understood that it wasn't healthy for me
A lot of people took the ending of Bojack to be an unhappy ending because many of his friends are thriving without him. But I think about the kindness he shows Princess Carolyn, him eating the honeydew, him having to go back to jail to serve the rest of his time and generally making the prison a bit better with the arts; it's played for laughs and it's clear he hasn't fully changed, but he's doing positive things, making different decisions both big and small, and affecting people positively still, and he's not the same person he was. It doesn't mean the people he hurt will magically forgive him and most of them clearly have no interest in being close with him again, but it does show that he's capable of affecting people in a positive way. We don't know if he'll keep making mistakes worse than his positive actions, but he's capable of being better, and he got a second chance to be better. And we can hope: no more empty apologies, no more big horrible hurts... Just small good things every day. Maybe.
I think the worst part about BoJack is that we see who he *could* be in the midpoint of Season 6 with all these small gestures done from honest, selfless consideration, and then comes Xerox of a Xerox which shows him fully backpedaled into his old self and we're forced to superimpose the mid-season BoJack with the egotistical professional victim BoJack of previous seasons and realize *he hasn't changed in the slightest* .
He did change for the better. A relapse doesn't erase all the progress. He still has much to do to improve himself,but the Bojack of season 1 would never do things like cleaning Diane's room for no reason than to help her, or found a genuine purpose into helpinf others like he did in Wesleyan.
Honestly Bojack Horseman is why I started saying "thank you for apologizing" instead of "I forgive you" or "I accept your apology" because I won't accept or forgive them but I'm happy they had the ability to apologize
I've been watching so many damn BoJack Horseman video essays and I haven't even watched the show lmao I'm considering actually watching it cause these videos are all so damn interesting
This was me but with alcohol and some mostly-online friendships in the last few years. Drink to push down the unhappiness and loneliness, wring attention out of other constantly-online friends, inevitably end up being confronted with the deep unhappiness at some point or another while drunk, lash out at them for not being enough or to satisfy some destructive self-hate, and then try to apologize my way out of the consequences. Worse was I knew it was happening but living in denial that it was such a problem as I knew it was, and that I needed to do better in order to be better to the people around me. I burned a fair few friends along the way to accepting that, and it's been hard reckoning with what a shitty, angry person I was being. Funny horse show helped me see myself in Bojack and be disgusted with what I was doing. Glad people like you are still talking about this show, and why it's important. I'm being better and healthier now, but it's hard to let go of alcohol, but it gets a little easier over time. Just gotta do it every day.
It hurts since you realize you did hurt a lot of people because of your own lies to yourself, delusions, arrogance, etc and to finally see it clearly really fills you with such a strong and uncontrollable guilt and sadness. You feel a bit like a black sheep, but I guess it's the process. Watching Bojack helped so much with my own problems and identifying repeated mistakes, bad behaviors you learn or pick up and then propagate, etc. it's honestly such an amazing show
My dad always said he'd hit me if said sorry one more time. Speaking doesn't mean anything, only actions. But actions do take time, so when i stopped saying sorry to people because i was scared of the meaningless of these words, people thought I didn't care. asking of forgiveness is important, knowing you're wrong but actions are what makes it meaningful
It really frustrates me how good Bojack Horseman as a show is. Watching him make so many mistakes but we hold on to hope that he can change and it takes soooooooo long but there was a short point where he does improve! But actions have consequences so when bad things caught up to him when things were good, he easily fell back to "there's no hope, oh woe is me." It's so aggravating! Because it's so human! To avoid guilt with hollow actions and by making excuses and pretending it was for the best to be selfish. Knowing he has free will and he made terrible choices, even as an audience I couldn't help but make excuses for him since we know his childhood. In the ending, everyone other than Diane gives him some hope that they are still be a part of his life even just a tiny bit (like professionally only), the silence with Diane makes me wonder, what is he thinking? What will he do now? Will he respect her bounderies? Will he improve himself and his life even if there are people he cares about that will never see it? Because if he does then maybe he truly learned to be sincerely sorry. It's not just for show anymore to be "good." His relationship with Diane is over and it's his fault and he has to be okay with that and not use it as an excuse to spiral down again. Amazing video by the way! I love how you discuss these topics and show examples in the show.
This, I was starting to get to a certain point in a friendship/ friendgroup that this show made me realize I wasn't happy with. I had known deep down that the dynamic was toxic but it was fun, and at the time, they were the only friends who I saw all the time, and I didn't want to lose that, I had just moved away from my hometown and these two were friends who were finally my own. Not people who I just met and only hung around to not be alone and not my partner's friends who I was aeound for the sake of not being alone. These people didn't see me as an extension of my partner, they saw me for me. However, our friendship at the time consisted of being awful to eachother. Pointing put each other's insecurities, making fun of one another. And I was part of the problem as well. It was pver the summer, watching Bojack that kind of atarted to make me realize how bad it really was. I had texted my friends about how terrible I had felt about that whole ordeal and how I wanted our dynamic to be healthier. One of my friends understood and the other one didn't. And as tome went on, I stopped being close to both of them but one of them at least was getting better and I considered them a better friend for it. Where as the other one stayed the same. It was even small things. Like noticing this guy's friendgroup change from somewhat normal people to a group of dudes who were okay with saying slurs and shit like that. We were all friends in highschool so we naturally lost touch as adults but it was crazy to see how everyone handled the interaction and what has become of us since. No one really talks to eachother. It wasn't a hard cut or end to eveyrthing but a gradual decline. One of the friends only seemed to get worse and eventually I wanted nothing to do with them. The other one seems better, but we don't generally keep in touch. But then there are other cases where me and my best friend had a fall out, a long time ago. I didn't forgive them at first, I hated them for a bit because of it. But we eventually made up and I had seen them tangibly change. The apology was nice but it really was their behavior that did it for me. I had tried over and over again to understand this toxic friend (no relation to one of my best friends, very different friend groups). And nothing was changing, it was the same shit. They had even said that they don't want to change and that they're them. I dunno if they still hold that but it had been a few years and nothing changed so eventually the friendship ended. Relationships are weird.
Shut up Todd/Meg Meg & Todd: *to the others* No. you shut up. When you have something actually meaningful or worthwhile? Then and only then will we listen.
I think you should do another video about PC and motherhood. Specifically in regards to how she treats both Bojack and Todd as son figures in a way. Todd specifically is interested as he has his own mom issues just like Bojack but they turned out completely different. I think Todd and PC’s relationship/friendship is criminally undervalued and not talked about enough. But I think it should be and you would do a great job with it
Bojack Horseman shaped my view of apology and more broadly, performativity, at the beginning of my adulthood, when I could have gone down a path paved with aggrieved entitlement. Something I've been thinking about today applies to apology as much as to other performative actions like protests-- the performance needs to be a beginning, not an end. An apology isnt meant to "create" forgiveness, it only works if it is a clear sign to the wronged person that they will be made whole as much as possible and that you'll do better. If the apology isnt followed by substantive action, it is meaningless. An apology is supposed to be a promise, and without follow through (and the trust thst you will follow through) it is nothing. The apology isnt meant to make you feel good. I think this is one reflection of a broader theme in the show, which is the comparison betwen the milestone moments and the intermediate time between them. The show argues at several points that we "are" how we routinely behave, though i think it also asserts that a key part of that can also be the direction we are moving in
I really love his apology to Anna for how it is phrased. "Whatever YOU think I did to make you disappear." Besides the "I don't even know what I am apologizing for." It's also him basically saying, "But surely is something insignificant and YOU are the one making a huge deal out of it." So, again, it's not his fault. It's the others that just make a problem out of nothing, according to him.
Bojack replying to herb with “I said I’m sorry” afterwards as if those words would fix everything is so uncomfortable. If he really meant his apology he’d be okay with herb not forgiving him as a real apology isn’t about being forgiven. But Bojack thinks “I’m sorry” is enough to fix everything. Like sometimes a person just can’t forgive someone for something, that doesn’t mean they hate them necessarily. Maybe they would forgive you after some time but aren’t ready to.
" You know what you're problem is? You want to think of yourself as the good guy well I know you better than anyone and I can tell you that you're not, In fact you would probably sleep a lot better at night if you'd just admit to yourself that you're a selfish Goddamned coward who takes what he wants and doesn't give a shit about who he hurts, that's you that's Bojack Horseman" Herb season 1 episode 8 the telescope I believe that quote from Herb really did some up who Bojack was and the more we saw the character and how he treated the ones he cared about the most you could see it especially when he truly messed up and tried to "apologize" I think part of him felt bad but not because he hurt people but because of his own depression and self loathing and the fact that he wanted to be loved and seen as Herb put it the "good guy" but just like any toxic person he will do something bad and apologize and tell people what they want to hear until he does the next bad thing, we saw him do this to all of his inner circle especially Todd and Princess Carolyn. But I do love the growth of the character I believe if season 6 Bojack would have went to see Herb in season 1 I believe they could have possibly reconciled or at least had the closure Bojack was really looking for because his apology would have been genuine and not just something to make himself feel better which is why Herb rejected him. Bojack said it himself that growing up what he thought was love he got from TV because he obviously didn't get any actual love from his parents and maybe that's why he thought that even though he was a flawed person people would still love him anyway until he found out that's not the way life truly works and he eventually goes to get help and to actually be a better person and yes he relapsed but you have to keep trying even when you get knocked down.
3:20 good lord I had a really close "friend" do this to me. Everytime she apologized, she'd lovebomb me and shower me in attention and affection, and things would seem cool like they used to be, but then she'd push me away again, I'd try to move on, and then she'd notice and reach out to me out of fear of loneliness. I don't think I was her friend, I think I was just someone who was there.
One of the best bojack videos ive seen from you. I relate so heavily to bojack sometimes, especially when it comes to half assed apologies. Everything you've said here is so spot on. Great work.
4:24 I took that as him wanting Todd to describe the good times back to him. But that might be me projecting since that’s what people in my family want me to do a lot. Like it can be a way to manipulate people into changing their mind and forgiving you, to get you to focus on the good times so much that you don’t want them to end, so you stop enforcing the boundary. Or it can be them just wanting you to soothe them by describing happy things, and thus having you manage their feelings for them. Like people who don’t apologize well tend not to be very emotionally mature people, in my experience, and they rely on crossing boundaries sometimes to manage the consequences of that. But there are probably other reasons people do this, too. I’m just saying what I’ve experienced.
I’ve never really wanted to watch this series until you started dropping these videos. Now I think I’ve been missing out on quality content and I’m gonna give it a try
There is a difference between making a mistake that hurts someone by accident and actively making a choice to intentionally harm someone, after all. I think that ultimately determines who should be forgiven.
I genuinely believe that bojack means 70% of his apologies but doesn't understand what it means to apologise. He felt that an apology was just a simple admission of guilt and saying sorry with no action or that doing a grand gesture was enough. The problem with bojack is that he always tries to find a reason as to why things ended up the way they are rather than understanding that something has happened and he can do differently. We can see this throughout the whole show. I just realised I have a lot to say about this show and this topic so I had to cut my original comment down.
I disagree with Forgiveness being earned. I think its something that people give based on how they feel. Just because you make a lot of work does not entitle you to forgiveness. And sometimes we forgive people who don't deserve it, maybe for our selves so we can move on. I think its a very complicated thing. But the good thing is that if you are apologizing it doesn't matter if they forgive you, because you don't do it for forgiveness, you do it because you care about the other person so you tell them you recognize you fucked up and they deserve better.
I feel like when people say that forgiveness isn't given it's earned it's more to say that you need to put in work to deserve forgiveness. Only putting in the work to say "i'm sorry" without putting in the work to stop it from happening again is not enough to earn someone's forgiveness regardless of whether they forgive you or not.
I think there's a big difference between 'moving forward' and 'forgiving', and so many people are told by society to do the latter when they really should just do the former.
How well worded and sincere your apology sounds does not determine how good the apology is. It is what happens afterwards. A change in behaviour, a commitment to not repeating said behaviour, understanding of how the behaviour hurt others and attempts at rectifying past mistakes. Those are the actions that make sorry meaningful. Your sorry can be as simple as the word "sorry." It matters little if your even forgiven. But a sorry done right, is the most powerful growth there is.
I've never seen this show before but I stumbled upon this video randomly. I decided to watch it and now you've made me want to watch this show! I'll be watching your other videos now as I learn more about Bojack Horseman!
11:30, also saying "my actions are bad so I am bad" still misses the point IMO. The point that there is no good or bad. If you say you are bad you are just avoiding responsibility. We all know people who avoid acknowledging their shitty attitudes by saying "I am a dick". Edit: okay you literally said it better the second after lol
My dad was his dad, he used to bully me for wanting my own haircuts Wanted me to BE him. And I don't know why but I became naturally spiteful. And now I two-sidedly talk bad about him because im a coward. I am so sick of my pathetic parents, and me as a pathetic son.
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I love how realistically Bojack Horseman portrays apologies and forgiveness. Sometimes it's genuine, sometimes it's a manipulation tactic, sometimes it's only for yourself, sometimes it's none of those things. I enjoy how it reflects on real life.
this show was a masterpiece through and through
Not only that, but it's probably one of the only shows that acknowledges, regardless of which one it is, people aren't obliged to accept them or forgive you. Sometimes the damage is done and you just have to live with it
😊 Josh from Chapman is a lawyer. He would be a great Hollywood lawyer if he is taken emotionally cared for. Truly. you would find it astonishing as to how much the world can become better if we took more emotional care of our established and licensed lawyers
@@fizziesoda7569just saying
The montage on the apologies is hard to see. It gets worse and worse. It’s not that Bojack DOSNT feel guilty, but I the more I think, “wait which apology is true?” And it’s more that Bojack is the one who keeps saying that.
And bojack keeps doing this routine of messing up his friends’ lives even if he didn’t intend to, then insulting them, then saying “oh your better off away from me” (which is true), then doing ludicrous “apology” acts to reel them in.
Bojack had every opportunity to be a good perosn and/or make up for his crap. He didn’t need to treat his friends as crap. He didn’t need to go with his ex’s underage daughter to prom and then..to the boat. He didn’t need to kiss charlotte.. He could have went and supported Todd’s schemes. He could have supported secretariat’s director or at the least get her a job after she was canned. He didn’t need to follow holly to her college. In fact Bojack, many times he needs an apology, he continuously intrudes on private spaces. Which is connected to his treatment of women particularly young women.
When Todd told Bojack, "you can't keep doing horrible things and then feel bad about yourself like that makes it ok. You need to be better" that was an eye-opener for me. I'd been taught all my life that if someone says sorry, it's my duty to forgive them. Otherwise, I was at fault for holding a grudge. Hearing that line was the first time I felt like my lingering anger, hurt and resentment towards the people in my life who hurt me, apologised and then hurt me again, was actually valid. It's not good enough to apologise if you don't learn from your mistakes.
Bojack was a master class on guilt, trauma, damage, and generational abuse. It had a very profound effect on me when I finished it.
It reminds me of how certain groups believe that if you just apologize or “atone” for something bad then everything is okay. And you don’t even have to apologize to the person you hurt specifically, just apologize in general for what you did. Like no, you actually have to try being better. Feeling bad or saying sorry isn’t enough.
@KingOfGaymes yeah it's called actions speak louder than words you can say sorry all you want but to improve as a person is to actually do something about it. Saying sorry won't be a crutch when your track record is nothing but horrible decision after another horrible decision. Sorry becomes very meaningless and dull after that. "I'm sorry" ok was that supposed to change anything?
@Traveleronthelamb agreed!
@@mcgeeSmith34 same here, I feel like I learned a lot from it
"I don't forgive you"
Why is hearing that so satisfying to me?
I think it’s cus Herb says it in such a validating way. He’s not being overly vicious or angry about it (at least at first, and then he gets justifiably mad when Bojack won’t accept how he feels), he’s just stating exactly what his boundary is. He does not need to forgive Bojack, and he knows it, and that justified self assurance is always pleasant to hear.
Because it's honest. A lot of times, people are pressured to forgive. Especially when the apology is genuine and sincere. But we always have the right to say, "no". We have the right, when being apologized to, to not accept that. To say, yeah, well I'm still hurt. And you aren't owed forgiveness.
How does that help anyone?
That just means he’s going to die angry at him.
@@tell-me-a-story- Not really. Herb was pretty satisfied with his life. He doesn’t need to forgive Bojack in order to move on: he lived the rest of his life without him. Herb died with a fulfilled life beyond Bojack, with a bunch of other people who ACTUALLY cared about him.
You don’t need to forgive someone to move on. Sometimes you just… move on. Without them. And that’s fine.
@@gregjayonnaise8314 Exactly, I hate when people say that forgiving someone means you'll move on happily, and its not always the case, just because you forgive, doesn't mean you'll forget.
> Clicked on this thinking it was a video essay
> Watched the first few minutes
> "Oh nvm its a compilation"
> Get jumpscared by an actual video essay
Literally same lol
same thought process, but wont be clicking off now that i know its not just 27 minutes of bojack apologizing shittily HAHA
I SAW THIS COMMENT LITERALLY 2 SECONDS BEFORE THE ESSAY STARTED HAHAHA
Bojack is a professional actor, that's why his apologies seem believable at first
he's not an actor
he's a MOVIE STAR
@@lucinamain6861 he's not just a movie star
He's an ACTOR
@@LunaCazador hes not just an actor
Hes a MOVIE STAR
He's an actor for sure, but not professional. He's a professional liar that's who he is
He's not a mediocre actor at best. His apologies seem genuine because he's a good manipulator.
Uugh my stepdad was just like Bojack. He'd do something wrong, apologize, then continue doing it. Then he got offended when nobody forgave him.
as if saying sorry is just some magical word that will make everything better. it takes actual change and effort to do better to make apologies meaningful.
😂😂😂😂 it's better that never apologizing.. my ex husband is just like Bojack horseman only HE NEVER apologize for nothing saying " I am like this, I don't have to change, and if people do like me it's their problem" that pissed me off😡😡😡 glad I got rid of that.. narcissistic man children am I right..
My dad and stepdad are like that. Except they never apologize or acknowledge they've done anything wrong. It infuriates me to no end bc I've had to deal with people like that my entire childhood.
My mom is the same.
Honestly... i hate hollow apologies more than just not getting one. Because I know that hollow apologies are done so the offended will shut up about it, not because they know they did something wrong. The apology isn't to make you feel better it's to make you drop the subject and expect it to never need to be brought up again.
TLDR; A hollow "im sorry" is an insult. It's a quick way to shut someone up. "Im not actually sorry, but to get you to shut up i'll take the blame."
When Hollyhock said she was sorry too, I also said “Girl for what????” 😂😂
That's to real though! How many times we apologized to the person who hurt us when we needed to be apologized to?! I can't be the only one. I just can't 😢
She was probably thinking, like, "I interfered with his life and upset him by dumping his pills, I feel about that." Even if she was in the right and he admitted that he didn't NEED the pills and she was making her brother confront his drug addiction (a good thing), it's easy to feel bad about it, especially if you're a teenager with limited perspective and a lot of empathy, to think "when somebody apologizes, you should consider your own actions and apologize too."
Bojack devalued Todd leading to others feeling comfortable doing so when Bojack already did the hard work of beating him down
She did chloroform Todd and tossed out Bojack's pills...
The way I see apologies is that if you're truly sorry, you don't expect forgiveness from the people you hurt. Apologize SINCERELY, and do whatever that person wants from you (give them some space, never talk to each other again, etc.) They are the wronged party, they are the ones who make the decisions on your relationship now. Forgiveness is nice to have, but you can't force it. The thing with Bojack is that he's used to that television fictional "I forgive you right away because you're sorry and did this big gesture to prove it!" He can't handle when people don't give him resolution for something he knows he did wrong.
I think you’re on to something when you mention the “television” way of apologies. This is something that Bojack, knowingly or not, is doing when he tries to repair his relationships. He probably only knows how to mend relationships by way of the scripts he has internalized. And that is such a simplistic and reductive way of managing relationships because that’s what showbiz demands is portrayed. It’s easy to digest and is infantilizing.
@@dwcooke I think it's very intentional on how Bojack navigates relationships based on what he learnt from television. I think there's an analysis video from someone, but they do talk about how Bojack lacks a reliable adult figure in his life, so he spent all of his childhood watching and learning from television. That's why he always tries to compensate for his actions by doing big gestures. From television, he always correlates the grandiose of his actions to the chance of being forgiven/sincerity, so later on he always messes up relationships because he thinks no matter what he does, people will always forgive him when he apologizes 'sincerely', and surprised when he learns real life people don't work like that. Bojack is truly a masterpiece like that, every time you rewatch it you see a new layer of the story.
Edit: Grammar
Realizing this ties into Bojack being raised by TV. In many sitcoms, the status quo is god. People can't grow too much, because then they won't be recognizable to the casual viewer anymore. They can't move out or cut out people, becuase then it wouldn't be the same. Hence, the grand gesture has to always work, but the character can't *really* develop.
Bingo! Hit the nail on the head. So much of how people act is internalized from TV, just like Bojack. I know some people in real life who straight up draw validation for their narcissism from TV shows and tropes
@@PS-dm1dqJesus loves you ❤
@@PS-dm1dqJesus loves you ❤
Exactly. And Bojack keeps following sitcom logic and it keeps shooting him in the face
until 1:44 I genuinely thought this video was a full cut compilation of every time that there was a hollow/poorly executed apology in Bojack Horseman
I literally said aloud, “Is this analyses or is this just a compilation”
@@habloconpablo9682 same lol
I’m presently staying at a Domestic Violence recovery center and your content has absolutely been carrying me through this. It’s helping me see so much. As a therapist, thank you.
Wishing the best for you right now and for the future, nobody deserves that 💖
Fellow survivor, just want to let you know you're not alone.
That point that Bojack does to Sarah at 20:22 when he asks 'what did YOU do' was WILD, to put a child on the spot for something he had personally been responsible for. It feels very, VERY reminiscent of something his Father would've done. It wouldn't surprise me if he went through a similar conversation with him at some point.
That scene you pointed to is a classic example of what manipulative people do to evade responsibility for the things they do to hurt people. Every accusation is a confession. Sarah Lynne brought up Herb because she missed him and was sad about it. In order to save himself from taking responsibility for what he did to Herb he had to immediately put her on the defensive to derail the conversation, otherwise it might shift to it being about his fault. Then Sarah Lynn felt bad about bringing Herb up and it taught her to not bring him up again. Doing this to anyone is bad enough, but BoJack pulled this on a child.
his mom told him to be sorry for existing which is also wild and likely why he doesn't know what sorry even truly is.
One thing that always bothered me about Bojack's decisions is that Herb told him flat out that all he wanted was a call from his friend and right up until the end Bojack was still fixated on the show. He never mentions that he should have called or should have been a better friend. It all cycles back to the decision to not get Herb's back with the show. He tells Wanda that a network exec like her ruined his life. He learns from Angela that it was always his choice and he was being bluffed. But none of that would have mattered if he would have just picked up his phone and called his friend. It wouldn't have solved all of his problems but would have prevented a few of them.
Yes, but if Bojack had just picked up a phone and talked to Herb then he'd be admitting to Herb and himself that he made the conscious informed decision to choose his job over his friendship with Herb. Bojack would rather keep lying to himself then accept responsibility for his selfishness.
I never really saw it as BoJack's responsibility to keep Herb from getting fired either. Like, Herb was in the end arrested for public indecency, not for being gay (even if that for sure was part of it) and it's honestly quite selfish of Herb to expect Bojack to give up on his one chance on Hollywood because of his misstake.
I think that’s why Bojack focuses in on the show rather than the calls. Because he wasn't in the wrong about the show, but he was in the wrong for not talking to Herb and giving empty promises. For not calling him, leaving him behind.
@@maximillian1109 I think the public indecency line is more of a reference to how things were at the time. In the 90s being gay was far less accepted than it is today and it definitely wasn't uncommon for queer couples to be victimized by the law for expressing themselves in public. There were crackdowns where people were arrested at gay bars or if they met up at a park before heading back to their place or a hotel. Most of the time all they were doing is making out and I saw that shit in SpongeBob when I was 6. It used to be pretty dangerous out there if you were gay. Which, I also happen to be so while that line might go over the head of some folks it's an aspect of our history I've done a little research into and recognized.
I think a show like Bojack Horseman which also features 8 polyamorous dads and some excellent asexual representation not to even mention how great they are with time period jokes, is keenly aware of that and it's one of those things where if you don't know it could seem like something it's not.
It’s so sad that BoJack didn’t even SPOT the actual harm he did to Herb
I agree with everything you said but I was thinking about it and what stopped Herb from calling Bojack all of those years? I mean yes Bojack is the one who messed up their friendship and betrayed Herb but a phone call goes both ways and even if Herb was angry at Bojack eventually time heals most wounds and you learn to forgive.
I have family like that when my dad died I was 15 years old and they all said how they'd be there for me well they were until they weren't after the funeral I barely talk to any of them and that was over 20 years ago and I was pretty mad about it for a long time because all I wanted was an occasional phone call or something and I truly felt betrayed and disowned but one day I woke up and just let my anger go and gave them a call and told them how I felt and felt better about myself because they can never say I didn't try. So Herb was in the right to be pissed at Bojack but a simple call either way could have mended fences who knows?
The “I don’t believe in deep down” moment from Diane really hit me. She was just underscoring what we already knew, and maybe denied, that there are some parts of people that just never change. Aren’t capable of changing. Therefor, “deep down” doesn’t exist as we’re such inherently flawed people.
I think it's less about change and more about how your actions determine what you are. Bojack can change. He can become a better person. He chooses not to. There is no good person deep down. Its only what he is on the surface that matters.
That's quite the pessimistic reading of that sentence. I thought it rather means that your actions determine who you are, thus you can be better by doing better.
Really? The whole message of the show is about change. That seems very pessimistic way to view it
I feel like Bojack wanted to feel like a good person instead of being one. And "deep down" was a way he felt better about himself without actually putting in the effort to change. He was capable of change, but I believe he chose not to (didn't go to therapy), ultimately because he only cares about his own pain and himself.
This is a really strang read considering the show’s main theme is the exact opposite of this
I think that deep down bojack is genuine when he says he is sorry, the problem is that bojack just continues doing the same mistakes over and over again.
Which is why Todd called him out on it in "It's you"
"You can't keep doing this you can't keep doing shitty things and feel bad about yourself like that makes it ok you need to be better"
Bojack probably did really feel bad for things he's done but instead of changing it he just keeps on hurting people so it's all just meaningless words until he decides he wants to change.
@@danieljackson2496 cuz is not feeling bad because he's hurting people, is feeling bad about himself and how that reflects on his image and how people react to him. He wouldn't mind hurting people again and again and again until the predictable outcomes happens.
Like with Todd.
He didn't mind treating Todd like shit until this one began distancing and not taking his shit anymore
👀
I’ll always remember what my freshman year biology teacher told me when he caught me texting in class and I immediately blurted, “I’m sorry!”
“Do you know what ‘sorry’ means?”
“That…I apologize?”
“That you’re not going to do it again.”
I think that’s where BoJack fails. He feels bad and he wants to be forgiven, but truly none of that matters at all if you’re just going to repeat the behavior.
@@eileensnow6153your bio teacher cooked with that, what the fuck
23:22 "Forgivness has to be earned" THIS. TOTALLY THIS.
For a good part of my life, I had to deal with a person who had the same behaviors as Bojack when it came to apologies: All words and no real action. When I got tired and set a boundary, he wasn't happy and went back to his cycle: begging for forgiveness, promising to do better... And I have to admit that a mean part of my soul chose to give him a very Herb-like speech, which only made him angrier. I realized that he wasn't willing to change, so I told myself: If he doesn't change, this cycle isn't worth continuing.
Fortunately, life is smiling on both me and him. Now that change I was looking for in him seems to be finally beginning to blossom, and without him even realizing it, he is slowly earning the forgiveness I denied him for years. I am just waiting for the right moment to show him that everything is already fixed between us.
But ultimately, I will keep my distance: the years have taught me that we are much better off apart. Still, I wish him the best in his next step in life. I love you very much, brother.
Something about your comment feels off.
From the specific way you compare yourself to Herb, to the way you explain how this person’s been changing, and your lack of communication on that part… it feels very uneasy.
@@littlemoth4956 First of all, English is not my first language, so if the grammar looks weird, I'm sorry about that.
Second, when I compared myself to Herb, I was referring to that part of his speech: "Yeah, and I will not forgive you", not what he is.
Third: I was not a good person to him. We were both horrible to each other, we had a lot of communication problems and our relationship is complex to say the least, I didn't want to dig deeper because the point of my comment is with that same phrase I quoted him with: Forgiveness is earned. I simply wanted to share my experience with something I have experienced closely, and the series really made me reflect a lot about it (even being the reason why I decided to set boundaries)
Honestly, sometimes the best way you can support someone to change is to set a firm boundary and walk away from them. Facing a real consequence like losing a good friend could have been the kick in the gonads he needed to wake him up to his unhealthy behaviour. Well done for stepping away and refusing to enable him 👏
@@littlemoth4956what is this, CSI Miami? Get a grip lmao
@@littlemoth4956 reading comprehension go brrrr
I always say "don't be sorry, just don't do it again".
Isn’t that what sorry is about?
You should feel bad when you do something wrong.
@tell-me-a-story- if you dont feel sorry but dont do it again, you at least respect the other person enough to change your actions. If you do feel sorry but do it again, you don't respect the other person enough to change for them. The best scenario is to feel sorry and not to do it again, but that doesnt always happen between people.
my dad says this a lot, I don't think I've ever heard him say sorry, I also don't think I've ever seen him show remorse and try to change though, so I feel like some people just go halfway with it
The moment herb said, 'i dont forgive you,' i was hooked for life. That moment told me the show was something special.
Bojack seems to make everything about himself. He’s like his parents in that way. So he can’t take account or responsibility for how his actions affect other people.
In that same vein, his apologies are also about alleviating his own discomfort, that’s what his friends eventually realise and confront him with.
I also think it raises a great point about redemption vs forgiveness, everyone has the capacity to change and deserves the chance to do so, but you aren’t entitled automatically to that chance from the people you’ve hurt and you aren’t owed forgiveness, ever
"I'm sorry, but" is my mother's catchphrase, she says it so often. Her apologies are never sincere. She's a bad person, and that's all she ever will be.
Rule of thumb: Any "I'm sorry" that's immediately followed by a "but" is not a real apology.
Same- something I'm scared of in myself is that I am starting to say the same things despite never wanting to be anything like my parents
I'm doing what I can and better than the last decade of my life but I really don't want to sink to her level
@ Well, knowing is half the battle.
Bro is the king of hollow apologies😭😭😭
I think him telling maude about All About That Ace was a genuine selfless act that reflected his growth. There was no way of telling if she would ever actually match with or date todd, but he knew his friend was looking, and she checked the same subtle ace flags as todd during her conversation. In my eyes it felt like a comedic spin on giving her todds phone number. He also didn't out her directly, and offered she check it out instead of directly assuming she was ace. It shows that bojack has been listening, he has learned how to have genuine empathy for todd, so he cares about those in the same boat as well.
I really loved "The face of depression" episode because it showed a different healthier side of Bojack who selflessly did things for his friends without wanting gratification like giving Diane advice about her depression meds and helping her clean her apartment just to be helpful and giving advice to PC about finding "her own PC" to take care of her and introducing Maude to Todd's asexual app and probably the most wholesome thing ever actually indulging Mr. PB with his crossover idea something previous seasons Bojack would have never done.
@@danieljackson2496 BJ cleaning her apartment was so relatable, I do that for my friends who are struggling. I understand that one persons molehill is anothers mountain, you don't see it when you're in it. I'm sure bojack felt the same way, once he pulled himself out of the rut he was in, he looked over to dianes rut and went "Ah, I know what that is." But instead of just seeing the rut and going "that sucks, best of luck" he offers her a boost.
I love how the show depicts narcissism thru Bojacks character. Narcissists will use “apologies” as a weapon that shields them from taking actual responsibility for their actions, makes them feel better about THEMSELVES and most frustratingly they “apologise” as a way to get sympathy.
It’s never about what they did, or the person they are apologising to. It’s all about how it makes THEM look or feel.
Amazing analysis btw!!
I never noticed this before, but on his white board where he's listing all the bad things he's done, he just wrote "Penny" by itself. Almost like he still doesn't want to say "I groomed a teenage girl because I was in love with her mother, and got her friend drunk AND abandoned that friend to avoid publicity"
Like even when we get to the s06 marker board situation, he still has issues owning the bad things he did.
an important phrase I've learned in response to sorry is "best apology is changed behavior"
The fact that Bojack will go out of his way to apologize to Diane in the middle of her important moments and make them about himself
There's a big difference between sorry as in "I really feel bad about my actions and will work on doing better in similar future situations" and, the more common, sorry as in "please shut up about the bad thing I did so we can act like it never happened and have fun now"
yup, exactly, 1000%.
Same issue with a chatgpt generated "apology" read robotically and a heart felt written one.
Like Even johnny Somali vs Blitzo going "I want to incite racial violence" "I don't enjoy or want to be a good person" "I think i want to incite hatred and foster violence, it amuses me" "im gonna be a psychopath and get so many views haha" "I will never apologize, and i never will" "If you have a problem with my behavior, stop being a pussy and come change it Japan"
(4 months pass of Johnny Somali harassing victims, intentionally ragebaiting mocking @!##!@ children who died in war)
The "peaceful community that never bites" wants him to "dissapear" at 3 am and "knows where he lives".
Respect is a 2 way street and it's kinda a horror to realize how much we take things for granted until it's gone.
If there’s one thing my mom ingrained in me as a kid it’s that sorry means “I won’t do it again,” if you’re not going to change your behaviour then don’t bother
19:37 you are wrong about Herb, BJ did not even bother to make an actual apology, he was just like "ehh uhh, you know, I feel bad, about, you know, the things". And then he was shocked Herb didn't grant him forgiveness on the spot. Herb literally went like "Oh, so you are apologizing?" like a Lawyer trying to make sure something is on the record.
It's interesting language choice. "I feel bad" means he's making it about him, not about how he made Herb feel.
Honestly this show is a masterpiece of great writing , it taught me as an autistic person that it’s is okay not to let people who have hurt me back into my life , and that actions matter far more than words.
Herbs “I don’t forgive you” speech was so powerful and impactful to me.
Wait how does that connect to being autistic?
as someone that hates confrontation with a burning passion, i think what you said about all of these examples of apologies really helping the audience in real life rings so true. i had a friend who would constantly do negative things and then when called out on it would “apologize” but then just continue doing the negative thing. for the longest time i didn’t know how to navigate that situation but i think subconsciously i realized from Bojack of all places…. its okay to not forgive. and as much as it saddens me… i don’t talk to that friend anymore. because all of those apologies were hollow apologies just so she could say she said sorry
The biggest issue with Bojack's apologies is that he never did it for the right reasons. With Herb, it was a performance done to clear his conscience. The PC, it was always a self-serving manipulation tactic (that she fell for without support.) That said, I don't think people who decided to forgive some of his flaws due to the circumstances should be made out to feel bad/stupid for doing so. Context matters, which is why so many hate it when you explain your actions; it makes it too hard to justifiably hate you.
1:32 "You okay? You look good."
"Yeah the make-up covered my bruises- let's just do the interview"
"I'm so sorry"
Perfecr encapsulation of how post abuse sorries mean nothing.
Its just make up- the bruises are still very much there.
I hate fake apologies, and I just start to reject them because a person doesn't stop making the same mistakes
And of course they will think I am a villain, but its better than being friends with them
Rule of thumb: If they just say sorry, and forget the situation, they aren't.
Sorry is wanting to fix or avoid the same pot-hole later on, learning the issue at hand.
Being sorry is not saying a word.
Same as "I love you". Anyone can say that. But not all of them can treat you right.
One of the most true and devastating things I've ever been told is, "no one cares that you're sorry." Because it's true - people don't care if you're sorry, they care if you do better and you can only do that if they give you the opportunity to do so. And hey, sometimes you don't get that chance.
And you can only fuck up once but after that you can't get anymore chances. There's only so many times you can fuck up before someone is done with you. No amount of apologizing can fix that.
Some people actually do care that you're sorry. You can't always do something to fix the issue or repair the relationship but you *can* acknowledge your part in it and own it and that is important to some people. It might be the only sense of vindication that person ever gets. My mother can't go 20-30 years back in time to fix the fuckups she made as a parent but she *can* own them, if she chooses to do so, and it would go a long way towards our relationship. I've had to own my fuckups and lose people over it before. Normal part of being human. If we were perfectly empathetic and perfectly rational this wouldn't even be a topic to discuss.
@@kylegonewild Nah I don't care that you're sorry
@@kylegonewild they even show this when hollyhock accepts her friends "sorry" ND forgives her
Glances at thumbnail; so true. Even Bojack knows that, he said consistency is what’s important in Free Churro and can’t follow what he’s spouting
He's getting there. I don’t think he knew that at the start of the show, and at that point he knows but has yet to properly act on it.
A full six seasons, and Bojack only apologizes poorly for two minutes of it. Hmm…
Wow
I just think it's interesting how much each apology tells the audience about his relationship with the character he's trying to apologize to.
Thanks for this. Way too many people (mostly men) fail to recognize that you're not supposed to root for Bojack. You're not supposed to LIKE Bojack. And you're certainly not supposed to find him aspirational.
I find Bojack more as a cautionary tale than an aspirational character, like saying “That’s what happens if you keep living your life so careless and selfishly. You don’t wanna end up yourself like Bojack, do you?”
I mean he's certainly not aspirational. But he can be likeable and I think we're definitely meant to root for him. We root for him and that makes it even more devastating when he sinks lower and lower. We like him for the same reason the characters in the show like him, he does have a certain charm. Even though most of the time he is a huge asshole. And maybe his biting sarcasm and "brutal honesty" draws in the insecure people even more.
I don’t anyone looks up to him.
They sympathize with him, sure.
That doesn’t mean they want to be like him.
I don't like him, he creeps me out. That's why I never watched the show - I've got other options than 30+ min of being squicked.
To all my “I’m sorry BUTTTTTT” people switch it out to “I’m sorry because I made you feel [insert emotion here].” Then put whatever was the reason you didn’t notice right away they were feeling that emotion with what specific actions you’ll do to do better. If you aren’t sure what you need to improve on communication is always a good start.
i am pretty happy that this show really helped a lot learn about honest apologies and is valued not always accept forgiveness everyone. i had living a lot on the mindset that you always have to accept forgiveness ,no matter what. which now ,i learned that is ok not always accept hollow apologies. amazing video man
This show had so many good life lessons. Everyone should watch it
"Apologies are just words" watching this after getting a bunch of "sorries" from my ex/🍇ist is so amazing
i hope you’re doing okay dude
Bojack made me realize your exact title. “Sorry” doesn’t fix everything- sometimes it doesn’t fix anything.
I went through a lot of my life, like Bojack. It wasn't until after I asked my wife for a divorce that I really came to understand what truly being sorry and actually apologizing meant. It meant that I could apologize for hurting someone all I want, but if I truly want to be sincere about that apology, I have to deal with however they choose to treat me afterwards and change for the better.
Truly being sorry means that you don't always get the closure that you want. It means that you learn to live with not being forgiven, but still putting forth the effort to treat someone with respect and abide by their boundaries. It means slowly working to erase the past behaviors that lead you to hurting someone. It means building habits that better yourself and the lives of people around you.
Really, and truly being sorry means that you are willing to accept the fact that some people will never trust you again and you will never again be afforded the opportunity to gain from their trust and being content with that.
Since no one else has said it already I guess I'll take a quote from someone who is arguably worse than Bojack but has decided to change for good. 'Do not be sorry! Be better!'
18:54 “Sober… but still so much hangs over. Please believe me when I say I poured my whole past down the drain, say that a second chance is a chance I can take, but I can’t make amends for things I can’t remember, I can only say I’m sorry and occasionally pray. Guess you’ll just have to take my word that I’ve changed after 1825 days” - Half-Decade Hangover, a song by Will Wood
i love this show the characters have interesting personalities and backgrounds
The least Bojack could have given Todd was a guest room and not getting rid of the old couch. The couch was Todd's bed, Bojack just got rid of it just because he "wanted a change".
This show has been completed years ago, but people are still analyzing it. That goes to show how thought-provoking Bojack Horseman is. It’s so much more than just adult animation comedy.
We cannot better ourselves if we have no hope for ourselves in the future. Damm that hit hard, being thinking about the state of world/society and how it will escalate in the future
Honestly that part of the show was the most frustrating one for me, on my family they treat an apology like a reality eraser, it's like we have to act as nothing happened, while growing up I had to even kneel a couple of times to ask for forgiveness and do extra chores because I made my sister mad and she wasn't going to accept my apologies until I do whatever she wanted, but if I was the wronged one then I had to accept the apology and be happy about it, I grew up accepting all since I would be the trash if I ever said "I don't forgive you", after the saw the show I remembered all those false and empty apologies... Honestly I hated Bojack and myself, in the last season I saw the example of how a person really tries to be better and that only made me cry, so since then I draw a clear boundary, even if people say I'm being petty or resentful, I already heard many empty words on my life to keep being ok with it, even my family says that I argue a lot but I'm in ot their carpet anymore
It's simultaneously wholesome and awful how much todd puts into friendship with Bojack, because Bojack values that so much but won't ever show it. I think Todd is far more aware than he let's on and he deliberately lets himself be the but of the joke because it puts people at ease, but bojack takes advantage. What could be seen as brutal burns from Todd just aren't. "I should stop expecting you to be better so i won't be disappointed when you're not" is him saying that he cares for Bojack so much that he doesn't want his own awareness of boj's shitty behavior to ruin their friendship. He gives and gives and gives to this man and it hurts me to see that destroy itself. And even down to the very last moment when there's so much distance between them two, Todd still talks to him like a friend, giving advice that makes a sad situation feel fun, and accepting a rude comment in good humor, while reminiscing on the good times with bojack. I'm glad Todd did find his way.
I absolutely believe in deep down because I’ve seen it, and so many of us have it. But sometimes deep down isn’t enough.
But we need to be careful. When you’re always reminded that you’re a piece of shit, you start to believe you are. The best of us comes out when others believe in us.
Sometimes people are exactly what it says on the tin. Why would you expect Bojack to be better in season 7?
my mother divorced my father because, despite of him being a good person and a good dad, he never changed. every time he hurt her or is, he would apologize and not change. he would do it again a week later. my parents were together for 30 years. he knew exactly how much it hurt her every time he would get angry and break things, scream and curse at us. and for 30 years she dealt with it with a smile because it was "better than violence", when it was in fact not. he would do it to her, to me, to my brother, to my grandmother. he never listened to me when i talked about the things i loved. he never took my mom to see a movie she wanted to see if he was not also interested in watching it. he didnt take us to the park, or on road trips, he never asked me what my favorite color was. when my mom gave him the divorce papers, he was shocked, genuinely shocked; he never, ever thought she would divorce him. why? because "i always apologize when i do something that hurts you and our kids". he always apologized. my mom almost gave up on the divorce, I almost gave up on leaving our home and moving out. but then i remembered Bojack, and how meaningless all his apologies were when he refused to change and stop hurting the people he loved. my father is still the same man. he still does not know my favorite color. i love him, as I always will, and I will care for him until his death, but I do not forgive him. and it's ok.
Bojack is a lot like our father. He has hurt all of his children but refuses to take full responsibility for that hurt, so we've done soft contact with him. His apologies have not yielded change and he stopped therapy and his medicines so to protect ourselves and family, he gets an occasional phone call and texts. I wish it was better. Our mom is gone, but this is how it stands for now.
Hope you guys are doing ok now
Don't be sorry! You and your siblings had the uncommon and good sense to defend yourselves from a destructive and irrational presence.
You people deserve a trophy: other people just wallow and drown in such filth.
Who’s our?
You mean your father?
@@tell-me-a-story- them and their siblings
@ ah.
That point you made near the end about this show sort of "teaching" the audience how to pick up on these behaviors from people in real life is completely accurate, at least for me. I had a moment with an ex-friend where I looked at our relationship and realized it felt like the Todd and Bojack sort of dynamic, and that's when I finally understood that it wasn't healthy for me
A lot of people took the ending of Bojack to be an unhappy ending because many of his friends are thriving without him. But I think about the kindness he shows Princess Carolyn, him eating the honeydew, him having to go back to jail to serve the rest of his time and generally making the prison a bit better with the arts; it's played for laughs and it's clear he hasn't fully changed, but he's doing positive things, making different decisions both big and small, and affecting people positively still, and he's not the same person he was.
It doesn't mean the people he hurt will magically forgive him and most of them clearly have no interest in being close with him again, but it does show that he's capable of affecting people in a positive way. We don't know if he'll keep making mistakes worse than his positive actions, but he's capable of being better, and he got a second chance to be better. And we can hope: no more empty apologies, no more big horrible hurts... Just small good things every day. Maybe.
I think the worst part about BoJack is that we see who he *could* be in the midpoint of Season 6 with all these small gestures done from honest, selfless consideration, and then comes Xerox of a Xerox which shows him fully backpedaled into his old self and we're forced to superimpose the mid-season BoJack with the egotistical professional victim BoJack of previous seasons and realize *he hasn't changed in the slightest* .
He did change for the better.
A relapse doesn't erase all the progress.
He still has much to do to improve himself,but the Bojack of season 1 would never do things like cleaning Diane's room for no reason than to help her, or found a genuine purpose into helpinf others like he did in Wesleyan.
Honestly Bojack Horseman is why I started saying "thank you for apologizing" instead of "I forgive you" or "I accept your apology" because I won't accept or forgive them but I'm happy they had the ability to apologize
I cried my soul out the first time I saw 'The View From Halfway Down', and it takes a LOT to make me cry, I love this show so much ❤
I've been watching so many damn BoJack Horseman video essays and I haven't even watched the show lmao
I'm considering actually watching it cause these videos are all so damn interesting
1:00 - It'll take more than your so-called "I'm sorry" Desperations.
This was me but with alcohol and some mostly-online friendships in the last few years. Drink to push down the unhappiness and loneliness, wring attention out of other constantly-online friends, inevitably end up being confronted with the deep unhappiness at some point or another while drunk, lash out at them for not being enough or to satisfy some destructive self-hate, and then try to apologize my way out of the consequences. Worse was I knew it was happening but living in denial that it was such a problem as I knew it was, and that I needed to do better in order to be better to the people around me. I burned a fair few friends along the way to accepting that, and it's been hard reckoning with what a shitty, angry person I was being. Funny horse show helped me see myself in Bojack and be disgusted with what I was doing. Glad people like you are still talking about this show, and why it's important. I'm being better and healthier now, but it's hard to let go of alcohol, but it gets a little easier over time. Just gotta do it every day.
It hurts since you realize you did hurt a lot of people because of your own lies to yourself, delusions, arrogance, etc and to finally see it clearly really fills you with such a strong and uncontrollable guilt and sadness. You feel a bit like a black sheep, but I guess it's the process. Watching Bojack helped so much with my own problems and identifying repeated mistakes, bad behaviors you learn or pick up and then propagate, etc. it's honestly such an amazing show
There’s a great line in Girl from Nowhere that sums this up;
“I’m so sorry Nanno!”
“You mean you’re sorry, again”
My dad always said he'd hit me if said sorry one more time. Speaking doesn't mean anything, only actions. But actions do take time, so when i stopped saying sorry to people because i was scared of the meaningless of these words, people thought I didn't care. asking of forgiveness is important, knowing you're wrong but actions are what makes it meaningful
It really frustrates me how good Bojack Horseman as a show is. Watching him make so many mistakes but we hold on to hope that he can change and it takes soooooooo long but there was a short point where he does improve!
But actions have consequences so when bad things caught up to him when things were good, he easily fell back to "there's no hope, oh woe is me."
It's so aggravating! Because it's so human! To avoid guilt with hollow actions and by making excuses and pretending it was for the best to be selfish.
Knowing he has free will and he made terrible choices, even as an audience I couldn't help but make excuses for him since we know his childhood.
In the ending, everyone other than Diane gives him some hope that they are still be a part of his life even just a tiny bit (like professionally only), the silence with Diane makes me wonder, what is he thinking? What will he do now? Will he respect her bounderies? Will he improve himself and his life even if there are people he cares about that will never see it? Because if he does then maybe he truly learned to be sincerely sorry. It's not just for show anymore to be "good." His relationship with Diane is over and it's his fault and he has to be okay with that and not use it as an excuse to spiral down again.
Amazing video by the way! I love how you discuss these topics and show examples in the show.
As people say actions speak louder than words
This, I was starting to get to a certain point in a friendship/ friendgroup that this show made me realize I wasn't happy with. I had known deep down that the dynamic was toxic but it was fun, and at the time, they were the only friends who I saw all the time, and I didn't want to lose that, I had just moved away from my hometown and these two were friends who were finally my own. Not people who I just met and only hung around to not be alone and not my partner's friends who I was aeound for the sake of not being alone. These people didn't see me as an extension of my partner, they saw me for me. However, our friendship at the time consisted of being awful to eachother. Pointing put each other's insecurities, making fun of one another. And I was part of the problem as well. It was pver the summer, watching Bojack that kind of atarted to make me realize how bad it really was. I had texted my friends about how terrible I had felt about that whole ordeal and how I wanted our dynamic to be healthier. One of my friends understood and the other one didn't. And as tome went on, I stopped being close to both of them but one of them at least was getting better and I considered them a better friend for it. Where as the other one stayed the same. It was even small things. Like noticing this guy's friendgroup change from somewhat normal people to a group of dudes who were okay with saying slurs and shit like that. We were all friends in highschool so we naturally lost touch as adults but it was crazy to see how everyone handled the interaction and what has become of us since. No one really talks to eachother. It wasn't a hard cut or end to eveyrthing but a gradual decline. One of the friends only seemed to get worse and eventually I wanted nothing to do with them. The other one seems better, but we don't generally keep in touch. But then there are other cases where me and my best friend had a fall out, a long time ago. I didn't forgive them at first, I hated them for a bit because of it. But we eventually made up and I had seen them tangibly change. The apology was nice but it really was their behavior that did it for me. I had tried over and over again to understand this toxic friend (no relation to one of my best friends, very different friend groups). And nothing was changing, it was the same shit. They had even said that they don't want to change and that they're them. I dunno if they still hold that but it had been a few years and nothing changed so eventually the friendship ended. Relationships are weird.
Holy shit, so many spelling errors, aaaaaaaaa. Sorry about that lmao
Shut up Todd/Meg
Meg & Todd: *to the others* No. you shut up. When you have something actually meaningful or worthwhile? Then and only then will we listen.
i was a todd recently. proud to say i’ve finally gotten myself away from my own bojack lmao
Number 1 Rule: "Never ruin an apology with an excuse." ~ FOB Equestia • Taking Horse Play Too Seriously - September 21, 2019
10:47 And, even if you do change your actions, it's still never enough. Nobody owes you anything.
I think you should do another video about PC and motherhood. Specifically in regards to how she treats both Bojack and Todd as son figures in a way. Todd specifically is interested as he has his own mom issues just like Bojack but they turned out completely different. I think Todd and PC’s relationship/friendship is criminally undervalued and not talked about enough. But I think it should be and you would do a great job with it
Bojack Horseman shaped my view of apology and more broadly, performativity, at the beginning of my adulthood, when I could have gone down a path paved with aggrieved entitlement.
Something I've been thinking about today applies to apology as much as to other performative actions like protests-- the performance needs to be a beginning, not an end. An apology isnt meant to "create" forgiveness, it only works if it is a clear sign to the wronged person that they will be made whole as much as possible and that you'll do better. If the apology isnt followed by substantive action, it is meaningless. An apology is supposed to be a promise, and without follow through (and the trust thst you will follow through) it is nothing. The apology isnt meant to make you feel good.
I think this is one reflection of a broader theme in the show, which is the comparison betwen the milestone moments and the intermediate time between them. The show argues at several points that we "are" how we routinely behave, though i think it also asserts that a key part of that can also be the direction we are moving in
I really love his apology to Anna for how it is phrased. "Whatever YOU think I did to make you disappear." Besides the "I don't even know what I am apologizing for." It's also him basically saying, "But surely is something insignificant and YOU are the one making a huge deal out of it." So, again, it's not his fault. It's the others that just make a problem out of nothing, according to him.
Bojack replying to herb with “I said I’m sorry” afterwards as if those words would fix everything is so uncomfortable. If he really meant his apology he’d be okay with herb not forgiving him as a real apology isn’t about being forgiven. But Bojack thinks “I’m sorry” is enough to fix everything.
Like sometimes a person just can’t forgive someone for something, that doesn’t mean they hate them necessarily. Maybe they would forgive you after some time but aren’t ready to.
" You know what you're problem is? You want to think of yourself as the good guy well I know you better than anyone and I can tell you that you're not, In fact you would probably sleep a lot better at night if you'd just admit to yourself that you're a selfish Goddamned coward who takes what he wants and doesn't give a shit about who he hurts, that's you that's Bojack Horseman" Herb season 1 episode 8 the telescope
I believe that quote from Herb really did some up who Bojack was and the more we saw the character and how he treated the ones he cared about the most you could see it especially when he truly messed up and tried to "apologize" I think part of him felt bad but not because he hurt people but because of his own depression and self loathing and the fact that he wanted to be loved and seen as Herb put it the "good guy" but just like any toxic person he will do something bad and apologize and tell people what they want to hear until he does the next bad thing, we saw him do this to all of his inner circle especially Todd and Princess Carolyn.
But I do love the growth of the character I believe if season 6 Bojack would have went to see Herb in season 1 I believe they could have possibly reconciled or at least had the closure Bojack was really looking for because his apology would have been genuine and not just something to make himself feel better which is why Herb rejected him.
Bojack said it himself that growing up what he thought was love he got from TV because he obviously didn't get any actual love from his parents and maybe that's why he thought that even though he was a flawed person people would still love him anyway until he found out that's not the way life truly works and he eventually goes to get help and to actually be a better person and yes he relapsed but you have to keep trying even when you get knocked down.
3:20 good lord I had a really close "friend" do this to me. Everytime she apologized, she'd lovebomb me and shower me in attention and affection, and things would seem cool like they used to be, but then she'd push me away again, I'd try to move on, and then she'd notice and reach out to me out of fear of loneliness. I don't think I was her friend, I think I was just someone who was there.
One of the best bojack videos ive seen from you. I relate so heavily to bojack sometimes, especially when it comes to half assed apologies. Everything you've said here is so spot on. Great work.
4:24 I took that as him wanting Todd to describe the good times back to him. But that might be me projecting since that’s what people in my family want me to do a lot.
Like it can be a way to manipulate people into changing their mind and forgiving you, to get you to focus on the good times so much that you don’t want them to end, so you stop enforcing the boundary. Or it can be them just wanting you to soothe them by describing happy things, and thus having you manage their feelings for them. Like people who don’t apologize well tend not to be very emotionally mature people, in my experience, and they rely on crossing boundaries sometimes to manage the consequences of that.
But there are probably other reasons people do this, too. I’m just saying what I’ve experienced.
I’ve never really wanted to watch this series until you started dropping these videos. Now I think I’ve been missing out on quality content and I’m gonna give it a try
You know unrelated to bojack I really needed to hear this video today
There is a difference between making a mistake that hurts someone by accident and actively making a choice to intentionally harm someone, after all. I think that ultimately determines who should be forgiven.
I genuinely believe that bojack means 70% of his apologies but doesn't understand what it means to apologise. He felt that an apology was just a simple admission of guilt and saying sorry with no action or that doing a grand gesture was enough. The problem with bojack is that he always tries to find a reason as to why things ended up the way they are rather than understanding that something has happened and he can do differently. We can see this throughout the whole show. I just realised I have a lot to say about this show and this topic so I had to cut my original comment down.
I disagree with Forgiveness being earned. I think its something that people give based on how they feel. Just because you make a lot of work does not entitle you to forgiveness. And sometimes we forgive people who don't deserve it, maybe for our selves so we can move on. I think its a very complicated thing. But the good thing is that if you are apologizing it doesn't matter if they forgive you, because you don't do it for forgiveness, you do it because you care about the other person so you tell them you recognize you fucked up and they deserve better.
I feel like when people say that forgiveness isn't given it's earned it's more to say that you need to put in work to deserve forgiveness. Only putting in the work to say "i'm sorry" without putting in the work to stop it from happening again is not enough to earn someone's forgiveness regardless of whether they forgive you or not.
I think there's a big difference between 'moving forward' and 'forgiving', and so many people are told by society to do the latter when they really should just do the former.
How well worded and sincere your apology sounds does not determine how good the apology is. It is what happens afterwards. A change in behaviour, a commitment to not repeating said behaviour, understanding of how the behaviour hurt others and attempts at rectifying past mistakes. Those are the actions that make sorry meaningful.
Your sorry can be as simple as the word "sorry." It matters little if your even forgiven. But a sorry done right, is the most powerful growth there is.
I've never seen this show before but I stumbled upon this video randomly. I decided to watch it and now you've made me want to watch this show! I'll be watching your other videos now as I learn more about Bojack Horseman!
Kratos: "Don't be sorry. Be better."
Man im glad this show exist. Theres so much to unpack.
Saying sorry is different than showing your sorry remember the difference.
I am so glad I found your channel. Watching all your Bojack content has helped me through the election week.
Thank you so much for this video, I love watching all of your analyses but this one hit especially hard since it's so relevant in my own life
I love this show, and I love your video analyses of it!
Made me realize something too…and it’s “thank god he didn’t reproduce.”
Hard to believe that the series ended 4 years ago and people are still making videos about the series
11:30, also saying "my actions are bad so I am bad" still misses the point IMO. The point that there is no good or bad. If you say you are bad you are just avoiding responsibility. We all know people who avoid acknowledging their shitty attitudes by saying "I am a dick". Edit: okay you literally said it better the second after lol
My dad was his dad, he used to bully me for wanting my own haircuts
Wanted me to BE him.
And I don't know why but I became naturally spiteful.
And now I two-sidedly talk bad about him because im a coward.
I am so sick of my pathetic parents, and me as a pathetic son.
im sick of some people assuming sorry is some magic word that will just automatically make everything better