One Of The Worst Angles In Poker!
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- Опубликовано: 3 авг 2021
- Today's caller gets emotional when he feels like his opponent angles him. Bart breaks down how emotions can cloud our judgment in hands.
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Have you ever made a mistake at the table where you have accidentally revealed your hand AND have had to play out against your opponent for the rest of the hand?
Of course. It is usually in scenarios like this. Three people in the pot, some guy bets, the 3rd to act folds out of turn and the original bettor shows his hand but the second to act never took an action. They aren't going to kill the action and, obviously, the first to act knows your hand.
In real life, the guy who originally bet has a strong hand so the 2nd to act then folds and the guy gets the pot. Sometimes, even though the original bettor has a strong hand, the 2nd to act calls anyway. That leads to fun times sometimes. It is *usually* a draw where the call is justified anyway (like this video). No one is angling. Just the guy folding out of turn misbehaving and original bettor being too enthusastic.
I showed on river before opponent made action by accident when I assumed opponent called...so this stuff can happen when you are relatively new on game. This doesnt seem like an angle though
I was in a hand against a 1/3 reg I personally knew , this was back in 2016 when I was playing 1/3. I opened QQ to 12. He called . Flop was 622. He checked I bet 30, he raised it to 250. Dealer Said player is all in as there were no more chips visible. I snap called with QQ & flipped my QQ. I asked the dealer , “is he all in “ , she said I can’t see any chips. Player right of him noticed , he had 3 green chips in his hand . Now my cards are face up QQ are visible to the whole table. Guy saw my hand & said “wowww u have QQ. “ Dealer told him , u can’t play with chips in your hand & move your chip stack. Floor was called , Floor said “Player is not all in as he still has 3 Green Chips “. I told I flipped my hand because dealer said all in. Floor then said , dealer would put the turn card & action is on him, he checked when the turn came like a 3. I put him all in for the rest of the 75. He said I fold & showed 88. Later I heard from the dealer & other dealers that he was known for doing all kinda of angling. Hiding chips, going south (taking green chips from stack when he wins & putting them in his coat pocket), accidentally saying “I’m all in when it’s not his turn & player would call & he would say did I act out of turn , I thought it was my turn , I fold. “ Everyone said he is a dirty player . I lost respect for the guy after knowing all of that.
I once said my hand to myself out loud as I looked at them in a 30/60 limit game. Three players turned their heads and looked at me like "WTF?", including the player on my left. I proceed to flop a straight. The player on my left called all my bets down to the river. I asked him if he heard me say my cards and he said he did but didn't believe me.
How is this a problem people are dealing with? This shouldn’t be a real problem
“Because he’s just not great at poker” is the best explanation for a villain’s action I’ve ever heard. It’s probably the explanation for 95% of play at lower stakes.
that's the best response to a Bart question that I've heard on the show
Calls the other guy “not great at poker” meanwhile he’s showing his opponent both hole cards
@@ryandrest2056 bingo.
@@ryandrest2056 and getting frustrated when his opponent offers him an amazing price on a call
@@ryandrest2056 and doesn't realize he picked up more equity on the turn.
The other guy isn't a good poker player, but neither is the caller lol
This was a hilarious story. Props to the caller for putting himself out there to give us this content gold.
Thanks for having me Bart! I promise my next call will be better and maybe have more to discuss play wise rather than me being a donkey 😁
I really enjoyed this one. You should've let him make his river bet, I'd love to know what his sizing would have been.
It was a great call in. A lot of us play lower stakes and aren't pros.....Its why this youtube channel is so great.
Definitely don't blame you for your mistake. Not sure why he bothered betting on the river tho?
Next time tell “he’s not a great player”… I’m all in and the favorite to win statistically. Maybe he folds
You're awesome
This isn't an angle, just a guy playing awful after seeing his opponents hand.
It feels made up lol
How does caller think it is an angle? He showed Villain his cards before V made an action. Plus he did not have a clue about his own equity in the hand.
@@11NPG think u right
@@j.sarnak1391 I think it's an angle because villain FIRST showed his cards without making an action. A very strange thing to do if your intention is to continue in the hand. And it worked somehow, hero showed back.
@@DavidBoutin that is reasonable. Villain showed out of position when it was on Hero, I did not visualize it , you are correct, maybe LOL
Always make sure the hand is dead. ALWAYS.
Also "The guy just isn't very good at poker" says the guy who just exposed his hand on the flop.
But I played the hand damn good other than that 😉
@@raimanyuh No doubt. Just trolling around lol.
Another rule of mine is don't ever release your cards until the pot is pushed your way.
The room I play at has a majority of senior players. Lots if card showing going on during hands. There's also high hand promotions that kinda encourages this behavior (hands looking for help to hit jackpots). ALWAYS REMEMBER, old age and treachery ALWAYS triumph over youth and beauty.
If anyone shows a card the promotion is denied
For me when I first started playing I didn’t realize how bad and unethical angling was.. the more I grow as a person I just see it as violating the basic golden rule principle of treating others how you want to be treated. I can also see angry old anglers who never study the game might become anglers bc they can’t beat the game fair and square so they have to come up with new tricks. I think in live poker a lot of anything goes mentality happens.
The hilarious way for the old man to play this would have been to take out his phone and calculate the direct odds for hero to call and bet that after he showed his hand 🤣🤣🤣
hahaha. and calling time when you see he gets out the calculator.
That’s good shit haha
Haircut still looking good! I don’t usually make comments like that, but it’s really noticeable for some reason.
He went from a 6 to an 8!
Great stuff. I appreciate you not looking down on smaller stakes
the old guy was giving him a great price to call, i think that's more than enough kindness, no need to concede his hand here. the old guy knew you still had outs and gave a great price for you to make your hand as well, he risks just as much as you calling. he coulda moved all in at any point lol
@chris johnson This
Not really, the best ev would have been for him to fold as he was going to. The next best thing would have been to check it down. He probably couldn't calculate odds and didn't want to lose too much in case of a club or queen.
LMAO when villain leads out $50 on the turn vs the open ended straight draw + flush draw playing face up.........wtf.
He was repaying the kindness showed to him on the flop. Hero gives villain a $51 gift on the flop. Villain gives hero a $53 gift on the turn. It is actually quite nice.
@@alexleach4002 so plottwist. villain is actually a karmagod. :D
I am an old poker player. Putting myself in old guy's shoes, he pulled an angle by not folding after young guy revealed his losing hand. Then, his conscience rises up and he thinks, "I was wrong to not fold." Then he decides to half way make it up to the young guy by laying him great odds to call, knowing the river decides their fates.
His conscience didn't rise up enough to just check it down, though.
Always assume any odd conduct is an angle shoot. Never give away anything. This is poker. Nobody is your friend. If somebody gives you info or makes a mistake that's on them. Take full advantage.
I was in a small tournament and the hand was heads up. Well it went check check on the Turn but one player thought it was the River so he turns over his hand which was pocket 5’s which was lower than the board cards. He realizes his mistake but has to keep his cards face up and the River comes not helping him, the other guy goes All-in and the guy folds his 5’s, the crazy part is that right after he folds the guy that went All-in flips his cards over and he also had pocket 5’s. All of us at the table just started laughing so hard at how crazy this was.
This kid has some nerve calling other people bad players.
Even if he thought the other player had folded, why the hell did he show his cards?
Bart man you’re great. I love learning from you bro and always root for you at the tables.
Great content as always!
guy doesn't even realize he picks up more equity on turn
Shows his cards and doesn’t know he has a double gutter but calls the other guy a terrible player.
👍
This guy is a total dolt
I'm not sure this is angling, just don't show till the end...
Ahahaha I love it when Bart brings up the hand with the guy from Tijuana who claimed he had AA and got the guy to muck. Legendary!
Hahaha. This is epic. Yes, the omc is "not great at poker" LoL 😂😆
Can't believe this is real and not a troll call.
Worst move is been apart of. At a cheap cash game at The Bike, I kind of talked the table into gambling a bit. After talking to the floor, all 9 of us agreed to put in $80 before the deal, and check it down. (Floor informed us he couldn’t enforce the bomb at cheap stakes, so we all had to agree to check around ourselves)
Asshole in SB hot dealt KK, and decided to shove for $580 over the top.
Everyone was livid, but I felt especially guilty as I introduced the idea.
I was so mad in fact, I told everyone to call, and I’d cover everyone’s loses if he were to happen to win.
I learned a couple things that day. Don’t trust people at a poker table, and it’s stunning how many don’t realize how weak KK is preflop against 8 players. 4 of them folded out because they thought their rags would be “gifting the guy more money.”
Luckily it was all made real easy as my friend won the hand, and we just paid everyone back their stack.
The asshole was informed he’d be better off gone before we could settle the money with everyone.
This is why we can’t have nice things…..
"TDA rule 67: No Disclosure. One player to a Hand
[...]
3. Among other things, this rule prohibits showing a hand to [...] another player, advisor, or spectator."
"TDA rule 68: Exposing Cards and Proper Folding
Exposing cards with action pending, including the current player when last to act, may result in a penalty [...]"
Sure, this is life cash game and not tournament play, but imo this rules should be applied here. I work as a Floorman and I would expect my dealers to call me over when such a situation happens on our tables. Villan is shooting an angle here. Why the dealer does not interfere and not calls the Floor, is beyond me. I would rule this as an open fold. By being last to act and showing his cards, Villan is showing the clear intention to open fold his hand. This leads to Hero exposing his hand, thinking the hand is over. V gets his 70$ back (initially called 20$ stay in the pot), pot gets awarded to H.
That’s a good ruling. He wasn’t going to call flop, flip over his hand, and then play the next 2 streets.
Take responsibility. Hero made the mistake and is mad at villain? Suck it up son. You must protect your hand at all times.
CLP call in is still undefeated on the caller misusing effective stack.
I simply can't believe there are so many people out there who "study" the game and can't wrap their head around wtf eff stack means
no old guy I know would play like this
As played, I think the $50 on the turn by the old man is a friendly bet. I wouldn’t take offense at all. I don’t think this is an angle or malicious. The old guy probably thought u all were friends. Also, he’s old and probably terrible or at least easy to play against. Gotta keep those guys entertained.
Plus the guy feed you free info as a “friendly” gesture.
@CrushlivePoker It might have been correct for the SB to only call the flop 3 bet after having seen the BB’s cards with the intention of jamming/betting enough to price out the BB on the turn. If he straight jams on the flop presumably the BB has a much easier decision with two streets to go and 12 outs.
Strategy Question once the hands are flipped...
Bart you asked why the Villian didn't just go all in on the flop. Now, the caller wasn't really sure of the stack sizes but we seemed to think that the covered player had about a pot size bet left. Given this, would it maybe be more long term profitable for the villain to just call the flop, and then only shove the turn if a safe card comes out. I mean we were saying the hero could call a pot bet all in anyway on the turn profitably which means the villian can get the money all in anyway by waiting, but with the added benefit of getting to fold if the flush/str8 hit the turn.
If it was me I would have been laughing and joking with the old guy myself LOL. Sounds like a juicy game - no reason to get mad. Just like Bart said you should always have the math right there knowing what your pot odds are etc and it's even easier when they turn the cards over for you LOL
Early min raising in these small games is usually a very small pair or a suited connector/gapper. Very susceptible to a three bet unless like Bart suggests there are short stackers who might push.
Awesome poker analytics for sure!
The increase in the effective is amazing... a longer video and this will become a million dollar hand.
Iv had a similar situation like this on the river. I was the button vs sb. He had a straight and I had a full house. He was looking at me and I assumed he didn’t know he was fist to act so I told him the action was on him. He then kinda laughs and shows me he is a straight. He checks expecting me to be like well I got you I have a full house. I bet 80 into a pot of 230 or so then the omc starts to get upset with me he needs up calling I was hopping he would shove. When i turn over my cards he gets upset with me saying there is a god and I’m a bad person smh. He was trying to angle me yet I’m the bad person.
This is so awesome.
The first guy that exposed his cards should have had his hand declared dead. I have never sat at a table and had someone purposely expose their hand on the flop with the intention of playing the hand, they only expose their hand when they have given up.
I was in a hand 3 ways to the turn I opened and had next to act shove, next guy snap calls, so i've over there contemplating folding pocket aces, the other two guys flip over their hands before I act. I saw their cards for free and noticed I was way ahead. So I called. Fun night. Board bricked out and I won a hugeeeeee pot
A strange angle I saw once was in a multi-way pot and the player says, "Let me check" pauses for a moment, then looks down at his cards.
That’s a bad angle. Sign of immature mind, i’d say. I’d just let him be. If that’s what makes him happy, then give it to him. Taking this against a player, and not feeling for him, means you fell on the angle he sold to you.
It was weird. Everyone at the table assumed he was checking.
Thanks Crushlive
Once the hands are face up I think call > jam because we can jam all the clean turn cards. If villain jams turn our EV of calling is gonna be less than 40 bucks which is not that fun.
The villain’s “just call” is optimal play
This was a great call in! Hero played the hand well on the flop. I don’t think it was wrong of villain to call after he showed him tho
I’ve seen play like this before but usually it comes from small blind vs. big blind only playing to see a potential high hand… I’ve seen small blind show QQ to the big blind and both agree to check it down to see maybe what could be a high hand jackpot then the BB bet into the guy who showed QQ 🤷♂️
@TubeNut Nuttington when the BB and SB play instead of chopping the blinds because one of them has a hand that could make a high hand jackpot
Rather than chop, one of the blinds will show cards that might have high hand/jackpot potential. So the players agree to run the board out to see if the hand hits. Pretty common occurrence in rooms with high hand promotion.
@@percyblok6014 yeah happens all the time and about 30% of the time one of the players will start to fire bullets 😂
At the Borgata Casino in Atlantic City, you can't do that. They say no collusion as it would void the promotion if you get the get the high hand. In fact, they won't even let you say "I need help" (to build the pot up to the minimum which is a $30 pot to qualify for the promotion.
@TubeNut Nuttington It is the place to play poker in Atlantic City. They have good promotions, but they now cap their bad beat at $100K. The Hard Rock Hotel & Casino replaced the closed Taj Mahal (Donald Trump's) casino, but unfortunately they opened without poker, and still don't have poker there.
SB actually was kind of nice about the hand by not just jamming flop or turn for that matter. I do totally see where hero is coming from but I really dont think this is an intentional angle, more like SB was just showing his hand for fun before folding then was given information that changed his decision. It is a different story though if it was more of a pump fake fold type thing where he was intentionally trying to give of the impression that he had folded.
I lost a hand last week where I went all in with an overpair (Jacks) on a pretty wet flop and the other guy thought for a long time and eventually flipped his cards over (Kings) onto the table about two feet in front of him. I thought it was a muck so I showed my hand since he showed me his and then he calls and I'm told he didn't fold. It wasn't an angle as this was a pretty friendly game and he is a nice guy but in my opinion if you throw your cards onto the table past the line then that is a fold.
Exposing your HOLE cards before action is over is a muck. It can elicit a reaction. That's why it's against the rules.
If it was a call he needed to either declare call, or move chips towards the pot.
@@kylew2165 it’s not against the rules to expose your hole cards in most cash games.
In tournaments it usually is due to possible collusion. Not exactly sure of the technicalities behind how someone could collude that way, but that’s what I was told.
Either way you can definitely expose your hand (or just one card if you choose) in most cash games.
take a shot every time he says "dynamic"
Showing your hand before calling or folding isn't necessarily an angle.
But you're gonna void any bad beat payout the casino/card house offers 😂😂
I once heard your calves 4 bet two black threes on a KQ10 all heart board....is this true? Please confirm..
He was only betting $50 cause he felt bad .. he was giving you chance to win
You showed him your hand.....that's on you...hahaha
LMAO he bet into you on the river !!! lol
As bad as villain's play is on the turn, we can't forget that many players at the lower stakes have no clue about pot odds and many couldn't do the math even if they did. He did realize he had to bet, so that's a notch up from some who would have just checked.
I feel bad for this young man , but the mistake was def on him. Never show until cards are mucked … think we all made mistakes like this early on in our poker career
It,s not just that he,s bad at poker but that he,s still afraid of your equity which is what 30%
This isn’t an angle, much less “one of the worst”, and neither was the one with the guy lying about aces.
Lol the hero in this story is an absolute dolt. Deserved to get stacked.
Hustled by an old man that wasnt even hustling.
The V didn't fold his hand and or tell the hero I'm folding + he bet the turn and was gonna bet river (he probably forgot what hero had). Hero should not have assumed he was folding.
Loving the hair
So the caller is talking about equity and ranges, yet pulls a bonehead move like this and then doesn't realize that he just picked up 4 more outs on the turn. This is a player that watches a lot of youtube videos but doesn't actually play live
I was like, did Bart change his hair? Nope just no headphones at the start.
I recognize that dude's voice. Is he a vlogger with long hair? If so, my voice recognition game is on point :)
In my opinion, unless you are moving all in or folding, you shouldn't be able to flip over your cards like that. That is complete BS. There is a reason why cards are face down.
Never engage in the stupid table antics.. Talking too much, showing hands and whatever other things ppl do. Your money is at risk. I've never understood why ppl give into these things..
I went broke last night trying to play a hand worthy enough of competing with the guy who likes to lead from the other day. 🤣🤣
Did you triple checkraise?
At the casinos I go to showing your cards to anyone while still in a hand is not allowed. After both hands were shown I don't anyone who would fold while legally still in the hand knowing they have the better hand. Unless maybe the guy was you're grandpa or something. Even then I wouldn't trust MY grandpa.
Someone shows you their hand while still in a hand call the floor over immediately if the dealer is just putting up with antics like that. Won't lead to anything good people aren't typically there to make friends.
Never show your cards until the other people’s cards are in the muck. Even better never show your cards unless you have too for showdown purposes.
Sounds like a Frank the Tank move.
Love the haircut bro you look nice 😎
Good haircut!
Showing cards IS a fold where I play.
I happen all the time at talking stick at 1/3
Can u give your take on the recent Live High Stakes Poker at Commerce game where a Older Chinese amateur who was winning, did not speak English and Kitty Kuo was in the hand and told him in Chinese how much the other player bet. Then after the hand was completed the guy who was not in the hand went ballistic about Kitty answering his question in Chinese - Calling the floor over. This set-off Kitty and the poor old Chinese guy did not know what he did wrong as the Floor man could not explain to him the rule about English only on the table. So the guy got scared and racked up and left a winner and so did Kitty, who looked like she had the biggest stack on the table. Just prior to this another guy in the game was bitching & harassing Kitty about playing so tight, which also provoked her into a lot of back and forth smack talk!
I don't think poker players get less ethical as they get older, I think that poker used to be less ethical as a whole, and older players just see it as part of the game. If they fall for an angle they're less likely to get mad, and more likely to just think "ha, he got me."
Listening to the story, I didn't understand why Bart was surprised at the flop call. Given stack sizes and pot odds, he can't deny equity to JTcc. Calling will be a clearly profitable play. Then the caller can shove turns which don't improve JT, check fold ones which do. Waiting for the turn leaves JT almost exactly indifferent to calling a shove which should maximise his ev.
Then he bets 50 haha
Shouldn't the hero jam flop cause he's never getting paid if he makes his hand giving the villain already knows what he's holding?
I really don't see how this is such a bad angle or horrible ethics. It's more just weird and awkward. Also the old man's been showing the caller his hands all night. If there's an angle in this whole situation it's that the caller never told the guy to stop showing me your hands.
Did you say what was the villain's hand when he first showed? If you said it, I missed it.
That’s not an angle, he was gonna fold and was gifted info for free which changed his decision. He didn’t ask for the info.
You flip your hand over like that you are either going all in or folding. If you can just flip your cards over, what is stopping people from doing that on all streets just for the hell of it. At what point does the game just fall into ludicrous, off the wall playing. There is a reason why you play to 5 streets with cards in the holes and not exposed to everyone. That is how it should stay.
@@guibox3 you can literally play your cards face up if you want.
@@johnnywang206 Meh. Seems like a cheap move if nobody knows what you are doing.
I always have the table covered
@@aheroictaxidriver3180 sandwich in one hand, live goose in the other
I think I would raise the turn, bet all in.
I don't always have control of my emotions and can be vindictive often, but when the old man bets $50 on the turn I would have jammed all in. This way he needs to commit his stack that the river bricks. I think given stack sizes the pot odds would have been pretty close for this to be correct anyway. But also if you flat call the $50 and hit the draw then you know you can't win anymore money. Most players would snap the turn jam of course, but I have played with old men at these stakes that would actually fold here because they are nursing their stack, don't have a ton of money to rebuy and decide they don't have the appetite for the risk. This only works in small stakes games with OMCs and nervous inexperienced players, but I honestly think that a turn jam had something higher than 0% fold equity. Plus when you do hit your hand you double up, and when you lose it sucks, but at the same time your table image shifts and this is when some inexperienced players start paying you off more rather than assuming all your raises are the nuts.
How did that AT villain not shove there…
Bart is spot on…I cut my teeth playing with a much older line-up and we played H.O.R.S.E. a round of each and a few were great guys that helped me get better the rest we’re angle shooters jaded by years of playing losing poker. The very first night playing a round of 7-stud I’m 18 or 19 the house guy cheats against my good friend and pulls a Queen from the bottom and I thought about it for like 10 mins and decided to ask the guy if he’d step outside with me and I told him I saw him cheat and also seen him try to signal his buddy mid-hand after that znd that if he didn’t play straight up I was leaving he played dumb it was a weird moment and Zi gave him an out and I said well maybe the bottom card just fell into your cards, it was pass the deal. I couldn’t believe an older guy would pull such bullshit especially at his own game,as I got older and moved to Las Vegas I realized younger guys do have better morals at the table than jaded older players, not everyone of them but in general. Just a word to the wise every young guy reading this just keep doing what you know is right and keep your eyes open when it comes these guys and also at home games pay very close attention to the dealer and the rake bc home games get over raked and dealers steal money a lot and that’s the main thing to stay on top of especially late in the night and with a lineup that is a little inexperienced. Caller I wish you would’ve drew out on him that would’ve been great. GL to everyone out there.
The whole point of this draw is for the nice implied odds which is a mute point since he knows the hand.
Moot
@@johnnyasmith3425 moo* point
Now I know why people say live poker is 10x easier than online poker😁
After that angle move, I would have shoved.
This somehow sounds like kylefischl
Damn, youtube now sneaking in triple ads smh
Millenials will cheat their brains out online though. Multi tabling, colluding, etc. Way more than older players live
how is multi tabling cheating?
Pretty funny imo that he evaluates the Turn under the Aspect of "giving Equity" saying it doesn't, while it does....if he was soley focused on evaluating the Turn under the Aspect of making his hand and then saying "the turn doesn't improve me" it would make sense....this way it's just funny, not being focused on hitting the draw only, but also on being "given equity" but failing to realize this Card in fact does give him equity 😁
Hmmm, I'm not sure I agree Bart on anglers being older and bitter. It just seems to me that people either are or they aren't an angler and anglers come in all shapes and sizes.
I used to have an awesome "mistake" move with my chips. Like "accidentally" bet too much but its too late, gotta go with it. Never knew that was an angle. That and a couple other moves that could be considered an angle - nor had I ever heard the term angle. Even took chips off the table after a win, was called on it by a player and I was "But theyre my chips now, i can do what I want with them!" No one backed him up.
My point is Im wmbarassed by some of those shenanigans, but I honestly just thought I was creating clever bluffs. Card rooms need pamphlets - I think - to educate newbies.
started playing poker at 22 and I am now 25 I would love someone to angle me just because I am a younger player
Caller's fault for showing his hand. This is not an angle. Why the F would you show your hand and expect your opponent to fold top pair. He paid to see the flop too. He has the right to win the pot too. You are BLUFFING and showing your opponent (who has legit top pair and is ahead mathematically) your hand, and you expect him to just muck it? A hand is not dead till it HITS the muck. Almost mucked and hit the muck are not same. This is NOT angle, period. I have been in a situation where a guy misrepresented his hand and said "straight" and I mucked two pairs. This was when I was very new to poker. That can actually classify as an angle but not what is there in this video. But it is my fault. The other time someone angled was a guy bet into me out of turn, pulled his bet back, then after i checked he checked back. Normally he is forced to bet in this spot after I check but that time I did not know this rule and the dealer did not bother either. As expected he had bottom pair and he won (his angle stopped me from bluffing). This is also very different from what the caller has mentioned in this video. The caller also mentions "He almost mucked his hand", well almost mucked is not mucked. Don't show till the hand HITS the muck. Do not do ANYTHING on the table where you are part of a controversy. I am very careful about those things. In-fact in my many years of playing, I have never been involved in a controversy or have had the floor called on me because I did something. Simply because I am mindful of every little thing I do while I am in a hand. I take every hand very seriously.
Bad poker players are such whiners.
Another example why you always have to keep your head in the game and always assume everything the other players are doing is to get an edge on you and take your money. Never assume anyone has morals.
After playing for 32 years I have seen just about every angle and horrible thing players try to do to each other.