D&D's DARKEST Video Game | Dark Sun: Wake of the Ravager (1994)
HTML-код
- Опубликовано: 29 сен 2023
- Play Dark Sun with amazing fantasy maps: / czepeku
Dark Sun: Wake of the Ravager (1994) is an intensely dark game based on D&D's long-abandoned apocalyptic setting. Unfortunately, despite great writing, stellar quest design and immersive themes - it was held back by being one of the buggiest D&D games ever released.
But, it's more playable now than it ever has been, so let's dive in to the Wake of the Ravager and see what's inside!
Oh, and we get to kill a Tarrasque, so there's that!
Please support the channel: / williamsrd
Follow me on the worst app: / willsysrefdoc 
Игры
![Rob49 - On Dat Money (with Cardi B) [Official Video]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/fTFS58mHJh8/mqdefault.jpg)
Play Dark Sun with amazing fantasy maps: www.patreon.com/czepeku/
10:13 I think you mean CRUSH, not Daphne.
Hey I'd like to thank you for what you said about how about dark Sun at the end of your video I think a lot of people love to just surface value a very good setting and the culture war behind dungeons & dragons is absolutely absurd from wanting to ban Oriental adventures because of the word Oriental yet having all these classes and races from the setting pop-up interested to see if you do the El Kadeem video game
@@orcwarchiefreviews I agree.
Nice video, good job.
I disagree with the cultural war thing though. Wizards is very woke these days and they rewrite their entire lore to fit this. For example there was a monkey-like race and they rewrote them because part of their backstory was being enslaved. They rewrite the alignments of races, racial abilities and so much more (not to mention the orcs debacle). They do the same in Magic the Gathering (just look up the Aragorn backlash).
If you want proof of this just go to drivethrurpg and search for old rulebooks. You will find an apology under every book from Wizards that the contents do not reflect their values anymore etc..Just look under the 4th edition Dark Sun campaign setting.
Anyway, I hope more DnD treasures are going to be lifted. Are you also at some point looking into some weird/special/rare DnD books?
Edit: Now Wizards is deleting the class "witch" and all "half-races" because it is offensive. They also wanna remove "druid" and "shaman". So yeah, they are very woke and cultural war is a thing.
Hey Bill, my friend and I have agreed that you are way too good looking to be this nerdy. You're kinda poisoning the well for the rest of us. Please could you wear a mask that obscures at least 30% of your handsome, or adopt a deeply unsettling facial expression from now on? Cheers mate.
One of the coolest messages of the Dark Sun setting is that, if people in this terrible wasteland ruled by horrifically powerful evil wizards still try, despite everything, to heal it and make things better, then what's stopping us?
Our sorcerer-kings are painfully mundane greedy idiots and shoddy grifters, so why give up?
It's not that people give up, it's that adventuring in Dark Sun is hyper deadly. Athas is a death world where even the grass can kill you, cause all living life in Athas have Psionic Power.
I cannot cast fire ball
Insightful and whitepilling comment. Thanks.
Imagine being the only actual dragon around and your name is fucking Boris.
*Borys
And there are other dragons. Every city except Tyr is ruled by some form of dragon. They use powerful illusions to appear human. Tyr was also ruled by a dragon, Kalak, but he was assassinated by a group of gladiators a few months before the start of the game.
There's also an undead dragon, Dregoth, who rules an underground city.
Chuck Borys
MtG has the eller dragon Nicol Bolas as one of the greater villains.
Well the only other Boris of legend is, Boris the Todbringer! So I guess those few who over come the dread handicap of thire name become Radical.
"The real culprits are Hasbro's accountants..." feels like it could apply to so much of how D&D has mishandled the last couple of years.
The crime spree needed after TSR made ALL their works public domain on bankruptcy day sure forewarned anyone INT >10 or WIS >10 🤗
the true BBEG was the 1% al along
I'm so sorry, you poor victim. They've been so cruel to you.
@@a.m.pietroschek1972 That... didn't happen?
"Leave the multimillionaine company alone!"
Thanks for digging into Dark Sun. I hate the “problematic” claim. It’s as problematic as any old DnD material, but as a lot of people here keep pointing out, themes of power hungry oligarchs ruling of the remains of the world they destroyed is rather prescient.
And that's the real reason they consider it problematic - they fear, perhaps rightly, that it'll make people question WoTC even further.
Its only problematic to people who dont even play games
@@SwedishEmpire1700 You didn't listen to the video
"oligarchs ruling of the remains of the world they destroyed" Earth 'post' climate change.
Liberals are insane
Fun fact: Wake of the Ravager was the first game I ever patched! It was that time when CDroms were getting big and it was a fad to put together and sell CDs with "1000 crap programs for free!". On one of those CDs I randomly got with a PC magazine there was a directory of game patches and I had just happened to install WotR shortly before that. There were three patches for the game on the CD, with number 2 and 3 patching stuff the first one broke :D
A thrilling tale
Oh, when the best person got the job (patch one), and no criminal misanthrope back from the loony bin played programmer in chief. 🤣
This voice acting had no reason to go anywhere near as hard as it does.
I'm so glad it does.
Man, Dark Sun is such an underutilised setting.
It would be an amazing setting to play with if given the chance
You just described all of dnd's current setting save, like, 2 of them.
@@MonochromaticPrism Let me guess, Mystara and Greyhawk?
The thing with Dark Sun is that its influences - John Carter, Sword and Sandals books/movies - do not have as much mainstream penetration as traditional high fantasy stuff.
I think this and planescape would be unique in the modern gaming market which tends to either be forgotten realms or some non-dnd game that may as well be forgotten realms.
I love the mindflayer sprites. They make them look like they're just shuffling lil guys.
*shuffle shuffle shuffle* “gotta feed the brain dog” *shuffle shuffle shuffle* “I miss my squid ship”
Dark Sun wasn't a game without hope. That was Ravenloft. Even devils and demons wanted to escape Ravenloft because of how punishing it was. The whole point of Ravenloft was to get the hell out of there. Dark Sun was a post apocalyptic setting that had epic difficulty but also epic rewards. Players of the right mindset thrived in the lands of the sorcerer kings.
I think sales pitch and word of mouth didn’t help.
Like there was one story where Ravenloft gate opened up in Dark Sun…and Dark Sun inhabitants found that as an improvement (That or moving to Temperate misty area from desert area where water is weighed in gold/ceramics might be one reason).
I mean Fallout, both classic and Bethesda, would be seen as Dark Sun if it wasn’t for “darkly comedic retro post apocalypse game”.
@@powerist209 The idea of Dark Sun characters being happy anywhere else was a really common story. Planescape had a fair amount of fluff about immigrants being overwhelmed by common goods and comfort. An image of dark sun transients at a dinner table marveling at a metal butter knife comes to mind. Outside of Athas, they were Supermen compared to standard PCs. That said, Ravenloft still had much worse lows. It had Kalidnay which was just a Dark Sun city state in the demiplane of dread.
@@dony2852 Yeah, to outsiders, that kinda of made Ravenloft look like Utopia compared to Dark Sun (and even Dark Sun fan fall for it, especially Kalidnay's lore where Dark Sun residents see being stuck in Ravenloft as improvement was the story I was talking about).
I'm going to hard disagree with you on Ravenloft being "a game without hope" - on the contrary, Ravenloft was about all about finding (or making) what brief moments of hope that we can in a dark, dangerous world. Even many of the Darklords were motivated by the hope that they would be able to break their respective curses and achieve their heart's desire - Strahd hopes that he can find an incarnation of Tatyana and make her love him; Vlad Drakov hopes he can conquer his neighbors and become a reknowned warlord, and Bluebeard wishes for a stable marriage.
The Darklords are are reflection of grotesque, selfish hopes and wishes, but the player-characters are meant to be a reflection of pure and selfless hope (the hope to make the world a tiny bit better for those around them, for example.)
@@junibug6790 The original boxset called its NPCs "who's doomed in Ravenloft." The place is a giant horror fantasy prison. Originally, the only real hope was escaping it.
Apparently Dark Sun was meant to promote the AD&D Wargame Battle Systems as it was originally supposed to be War World. A few of the modules had adventures for battles. Also the Halfling, Elves, and Dwarves were shoehorned in as apparently the original lore was meant to be completely non-Tolkien, but players would have been confused as those were common tropes.
They were shoehorned in but completely changed as races. Elves were fast running hyper nomads with shorter life spans. Dwarves were really
just very tough short humans. And Halflings were actually the original special on Athas and in ancient times were super poweful psionic sorcerers who are the ones that turned Athas into the desert hell it is and they themselves devolved into wild cannibals.
I can kinda imagine it picturing the novels.
Unfortunately for both TSR and Ral Partha, the figs didn't catch on anywhere near as well as expected and very little of the planned wargames-focused range never came out. Most of the blame there lies on TSR. They didn't wait long enough for the setting to catch on and maybe (big maybe) produce a real demand for figs suitable for Battlesystem, and the unique look of the setting meant there wasn't much hope of selling the models for other systems the way the more generic regular D&D figs did. They jumped the gun by pushing Ral Partha into production too early, when they should have been more conservative and stuck to Dark Sun figs solely for PCs, NPCs and monsters rather than (say) the chariot and and hang-glider kits.
Some of the guys at Iron Wind Metals (formerly RP employees) were still cranky about the whole debacle back in 2005, which is the last time I saw any of them at a con.
@@nilus2khaving a bunch of halfling sorcerer kings and all-around arcane behemoths reminds me of the Mhachi civilization from FFXIV with all of the Lalafell black mages running around being nuisances, and how it’s reflected within the game’s modern-day Lalafell thaumaturges.
Also the Tarutaru from FFXI having similar lore lol. Shantotto is an absolute monster, same with Shatotto in XIV. Fear the stubby archmages!
Thri-Kreen, Aarakocra, and Pterrans may have been favorite races before the creators were told to add the more common stock...
You know things are bad when the bad guy summons A tarrasque, not THE Tarrasque.
The way you tell it, my level 2 rogue can't pickpocket it and sneak off? 🤣
That rant at the end there, about them not being afraid of dark sun's problematic elements but rather them being afraid of trying to put the effort into getting the setting right? That's sorta how I feel about how 5e tried to bring spelljammer back, and how they kinda failed to do so by only really bringing the aesthetics and names of things back without much of the context or meaning behind any of it. It's because of how they handled spelljammer that I'm actually kinda ok knowing current Wizards of the Coast is not willing to try and do dark sun, because I kinda don't want to see how they would handle dark sun if how they handled spelljammer is any indication, you know?
Wizards needs an internal change in philosophy before I think I can expect them to do any sort of justice or *meaningful* change to old settings, and I dunno if they'll ever have the opportunity for that change while under Hasbro's thumb.
Yea they just don’t really care about dnd. For there bottom line it’s a barely relevant thing.
Imagine, we live in a world where dnd, and ttrpgs, has massively exploited in popularity like never before, and wizards has done jackshit to really capitalize on it, you know, besides trying to ruin their reputation through trying to effective kill the third party market because they were not get a larger cut of the profits.
I mean, they're run by a microsoft micro transaction lady and a guy from zynga games. It's not even a concern for them, really.
To show how braindead Hasbro is, their response to the wild success of BG3 was to.... release toys based on the crappy old cartoon series where the Paladin wasn't even allowed to have a sword
Awesome video and i tend to agree with your conclusion on dark sun. Wizards feels no urge to bring back the many niche settings that 2e had. They bungled spelljammer and gave us a halfhearted dragonlance.
Yeah, I can agree with that.
Plus the kind of videos you make kinda share his views on “slavery in Dark Sun” being not sensitive (as in entire game tends to have issue with ironically “sanitizing” the ownership of slavery as morality, like neutral characters won’t get alignment penalty and “so long as you treat slaves well”.
Plus Fallout is popular despite having slavery (even if it is shown as Evil thing and shown as such).
Maybe you and William SRD should make collaboration videos on DnD games or setting, especially Kara-Tur (or rather why it won’t or didn’t get videogame adaptation even in 80’s and 90’s when players won’t be informed about Asian culture to get issues with it).
If your a arm of a arm of a branch of several mega corporations that is irrelevant to the bottom line of multi billion dollar companies, they have no reason to expand or try new things.
Man everything would have been much better off if dnd was its own company.
I disagree. I think if Wizards of the Coast thinks there can be a whiff of controversy to a product they want to sell they panic. It's why they rushed to changed the way racial attribute modifiers worked because a very small group was saying it was racist that certain races in D&D (I.E. creatures that are not human) have innate bonuses to certain attributes and that they have a society typically ruled a certain way. I think most people just had the idea that orcs aren't humans, elves aren't humans etc... Although the vast psychological differences dwarves have from humans in Warhammer Fantasy is one reason I think I prefer that setting over D&D settings.
Not to mention a butchered Ravenloft.
Technically halfling supremacists, since all species in the setting, save one, "evolved" from halflings and the BBEG wanted to restore them to power, all sorcerer kings are his disciples .
EDIT:
I agree that DS can be adapted in interesting and engaging way, however that takes effort, and that is a taboo word in WoTC these days.
In addition I highly recommend for you to take a look on the video games based on the German TTRPG The Dark Eye, especially Drakensang: The river of time.
Sorta! Rajaat, the first sorcerer, was a halfling supremacist. He tricked a bunch of magically talented humans into thinking it would be humanity (rather than halflings) who would be the final species.
IIRC, the guys who rule now are human supremacists who were taught by a halfling supremacist that intended to kill humans last only for his apprentices to kick his ass (shockingly they didn't want to just roll over and die when he revealed his true plan to kill them after they finished killing everyone else).
there was also a Dark Eye videogame, which is kinda similar to Dark-Sun and Ravenloft, I forgot his name tough...
the irony with +2 to any race is that halflings are once again the master race.
I absolutely adore dark sun and its world. After playing through the old games as a party of all half giant gladiators I do really wish we got more to it.
Christ that sounds terrifying. "Hi, we're the half-giants. Our combined IQs number in the double digits and we can lift a whole mikilot if we wanted to!"
Also considering half-giants big thing is imitating people they admire, who do they admire in the party? Do they just swap leader hat or do they encounte lr some random joe and go- "We like you." And just follow him around like a pack of jacked up pitbulls?
Not only would they have to do actual work on the lore, they'd also have to write actual mechanics for psionics and Defilers. There's no way WotC will ever put work into anything nowadays.
Effort costs money, and that isn't in Hasbro's lexicon.
I don't question the passion or dedication of the people who work at WotC, but they're led by bean counters and the modern managerial caste, who care only about pumping the stock price for the next quarterly earnings call.
I would love to see Dark Sun return. Dark fantasy isn't always about being grimdark, it can also be, secretly, about hope. I wish we had gotten a third game, to wrap up the story
Yeah, ironically Novel TRIED that (not wrapping up the story)...and it is so hated that it may probably killed the setting until 4E.
Basically, the entire storyline had Sorceror Kings overthrown one by one and turned out that there's still an ocean past the jungle.
People got mad because Dark Sun won't be dark after all.
Probably Third Game was planned until THAT happened.
@@powerist209Doesn't help the party there kind of were Mary Sues given that one feat of theirs REQUIRES a party of Epic Level characters to pull it off...4e made the right choice of 'Every new game of Dark Sun always starts with one Sorcerer King dead because of an ill-thought out plan to try to speedrun Dragonhood leading to him getting turbomurdered by one of his fight slaves....Chances are good it could be YOUR Party that delivered the killshot or it could be a stray spear.'
@@powerist209 Those fans didn't realize that Dark Sun it's a setting not about saving the World like other D&D settings but about getting the World back, going from bottom to something better, it's not a world like Ravenloft or Warhammer where Good can't win in the long term.
Agree
One of the best example is the well acclaimed dark fantasy manga called berserk. Anyone who read it will know that one of its main themes is hope
@@boxtank5288it's funny how meaningless the term Mary Sue is now lol. I've read all 5 of the books and all the characters have struggled every inch of power they got, not to mention the few that died in the process. I'll admit the boss fights weren't the greatest, the best being the slaying of Kalak but to call these characters Mary sues is just plain stupid and wrong.
Dark Sun is such a criminally underlooked setting, I love it
I have spent a lot of money and time on this setting and, earlier this year, attempted to negotiate a way to publish new material for it (no dice). Your analysis at the end pretty closely aligns with my own conclusions and it is a tragedy.
Dark Sun is problematic? * Looks at Conan Exiles where the base mechanic of the game revolves around kidnapping people to enslave them. *
Great take on the "problematic content" that is pulled as an excuse way too often to expain why a licence can't be brought back. Or imported, some Japanese editors have pulled that one too on several occasions as to why they're not bringing certain IPs to the West. It makes them look like they're the victims while the actual reasons are simple profit margins projections and the unwillingness to put any resources in something with an unpredictable outcome.
A simple dive in Steam's indie games will convince you that you can sell many kinds of "problematic" content.
I mean the wired thing is its perfectly company to say this wouldn't sell well so we don't make it. Like yah it sucks for the fans but like its a perfectly reasonable stance like yah it's a company they have to at least make there money back on something the invest in so I don't see why they don't say that
@@addex1236 true, but some IP holders have reasons other than profit margins. Notably, the Tolkien estate is stingy with licensing and from Japan, we got some pretty weird stuff like Nier localized, yet some mundane and mainstream stuff like Type Moon novels relegated to "big in Japan" because the author doesn't trust translators (then again, profit margins on mobile game made Nasu change his mind, so you're probably more correct).
Just the indies? Stellaris is a major game from a major strategy game developer where you play as a custom made space civilization, and depending on how you choose to personalize them, you get multiple choices on how you want to enslave and genocide other alien species!
You can turn conquered people into domestic servants, battle thralls, you can nerve strap them to make them totally obedient at the cost of wiping out their intelligence, you can put them in zoos, you can turn them into livestock.
And Dark Sun is problematic?
Thats the thing. It's only problematic if you don't put in the work to add context and depth. Look at Fear and Hunger. Mostly raved as a work of art with loads of things no major publisher would touch because they can't put that much effort into something that might not pay off.
It's the corporatization of everything. Dnd is the AAA of the tabletop world.
When creative works are turned "professional" they become homogenous messes because they always want to look like good guys despite never putting in the work to actually be good.
The point about Hasbro not being willing to invest in doing it right is so on point.
I passed on this one and the Dark Sun universe. I was lucky enough to have a semidecent computer in 1994, back when I was 35. There was nothing like the selectioin we have nowadays, but it was fun. I played Stone Prophet, from the Ravenloft setting, and another ARPG, Al-Qadim: The Genie's Curse, that was pretty fun, but I was usually not a fan of the desert settings.
Thanks for the memory.
Oh cool, an Al-Qadim game, gotta look into that.
Al-Qadim was awesome!!! It was like an attempt at a console style action rpg on the pc, goddamn I played the hell out of that game when it came out. Awesome setting, graphics, everything was amazing.
Main reason Darksun won't be brought back: all the Darksun books, including its 4th edition book, sold horribly.
Shhhh we can't point out the economics of it it destroys everyone else's narrative
I think that’s the point. To do the setting justice requires a great deal of effort and advertisement to tables, and once you start an Athas game, you’re locked in to doing the things it does, and only those. It’s not like most D&D settings where the DM can tell any story. It works better as a module than a setting. It’s doesn’t sell because it can be uncomfortable, and it doesn’t sell because they don’t want to sell it. Economic factors follow social ones.
The reason most early buyers bought a DS book was for psionics, and by the time most tables cared, Complete Psion existed.
In today's climate they won't touch a story with so much slavery. Don't forget the "orcs are racist depicting black people" thing a few years ago
I loved that apt commentary on the Dark Sun setting at the end.
Dark Sun and Ravenloft have always been my favorite settings.
And if anything, Dark Sun was remarkably ahead of its time since most of the narratives revolve around slaves fighting for liberation, revolution, and polyamory (in Troy Denning's novels three of the protagonists are in a "throuple").
So many problems with communication come down the normalising of unhelpfully broad termanology. "Problematic" becoming a shorthand thats often used to mean "I'm too passive-aggressive to actually define what my problems are with the thing in question, but I'm going to pretend I'm not describing it in direct terms out of politeness instead" has been a disaster.
See also "Toxic".
Seriously, I've seen the term used for anything from "said something mildly sexist a decade ago for which they have since apologized" to "literally a serial murderer." It's just so uselessly vague and sort of frames literally all bad things as being vaguely equal.
Toxic has a extreme specific meaning. If you call someone toxic it means that person causing problems and would make you a lesser person for spending time with them. Something to be avoided.
Google it. It ain't that hard.
@@AL-lh2ht And thus is intentionally very vague, to allow the person using the word to be passive-aggressive and not actually clarify what their issue with the person/s in question is.
Very indirect, manipulative language. Normalises gossiping psychology.
If Larian does another D&D game in the future a Dark Sun setting would be high on my list.
The entire heart of Dark Sun is that unchecked power twists mortals into horrible actions and horrible goals. I think WotC is so used to (no pun intended) coasting on their settings and occasionally tossing culture war dross out. Whether they like it or not, Hasbro and WotC are kind of Sorcerer Kings in this scenario lol.
Wait, you're telling me, a big corporation, find dark sun, the pro ecological, anti capitalist setting, problematic ? Golly gee, I wonder why.
The problematic excuse also is hilarious considering every other DnD 5th enemy humanoid race seems to be a slaver to some degree of horrible. There's def a market for dark fantasy/conanesque adventures, even if it is a bit niche.
Because it sold like shit. Nothing you're trying to imply, lol
Also, given the insanely safe and racially homogenous 5th edition (black gnomes, etc.) a setting like this would make lefty heads explode. Thus, WOTC buries it.
@@da_ocsta1452wouldnt the statistically average humanoid of any race be black, south asian or east asian and not white?
As it is us white people are a statistical minority, and its pretty weird some people terminally online are intent on pretending we're 99% of all people somehow
@@Rynewulf How did dark skin develop? Or light skin for that matter? The Elder Scrolls does it right. You look like the rest of YOUR RACE based on their evolution. It's common freaking sense.
I like the touch of the moss on the relic stones dying as they're drained of life during The Ravager ritual.
Players who enjoys Cyberpunk, Shadowrun and WoD RPG will appreciate the Dark Sun setting; the game is impossible to "win" in the traditional sense. It's how long and how cool you send off your character into retirement.
I actually really like the idea of the world where the powerful are too selfish to gain power, and the people who would save the world are too selfless to survive. It's a world in the middle of apocalypse and the scales have horrifyingly balanced.
Wow, that Tarrasque was scarier than I expected. I'll be seeing his face in my nightmares.
Great video as always. You didn't lose anything by not importing your SL party, most of your carryover loot is converted to money or become useless trinkets that have no purpose.
Regarding DS continuing, I remember that some folks were making a Dark Sun TC server for Neverwinter Nights Diamond edition but I guess that never went anywhere either.
I kind of disagree. While a lot is converted, quite a few powerful items remained like El's drinker.
@@dony2852 yes, mostly stuff that already has models in WoR. That third El's was a nice crutch for my hideous difficulty run (not recommended)
Some lore inaccuracies here:
Kalak (the "Sorcerer-King" of Tyr) wasn't really one of the Sorcerer-Kings. He wanted to sacrifice the entire city to become a dragon. He was killed by one of his Templars, a noble, a wizard of the Veiled Alliance and several gladiators.
And there is an Avangion in progress (actually one of the Sorcerer-Kings).
Kalak was definitely a sorcerer-king. All of Athas' sorcerer-kings are either dragons or avangions (well, one is an avengion, all others are dragons in various stages of development, and one of them, Dregoth, is an undead dragon). Kalak was one of the less matured dragons among the sorcerer-kings, and his arena scheme was aimed at skipping over the long process of evolving into fully matured dragonhood and ascend to full (level 30) dragon status.
@@JaceyMitchell nope, he wasn't.
Sorcerer-Kings were granted the ability to be conduits for clerical magic.
Kalaks Templars didn't get their spells from him, but from the disembodied heads he had with him.
He wasn't one of Rajaats champions.
darksun's timeless themes of rebellion against slavery, oppression, tyranny and wicked rulership that ruins the environment could be so strong and strike a lot of chords with modern audiences
Yep. It just needs the right focus.
That would get complained about still, from those who call everything a four letter word starting with W and ending in E, but that would likely just improve sales.
It would honestly probably backfire pretty hard. Devs keep trying to shoehorn that into their games in the last decade, and it always results in a flop.
That said, the idea of taking power from life & nature in order to cast magic is an interesting one that people would probably enjoy participating in.
@@baynemacgregor8441It's funny because the woke gobble down corporate kool-aid without a shred of critical thinking.
I dunno, I'm from Ukraine and most relatable games are the ones where humans defend from hordes of it invading orcs and people who think other issues matter are seen as weirdos as long as mosc-Mordor stands...
@@baynemacgregor8441 The "right focus" those people would give Dark Sun is to strip the setting all of its themes on the ground of them being "toxic" and turn Dark Sun into a happy-go-lucky desert setting with no racism, no slavery, no bad things happening, no climate crisis, because the corporates love to sell a sanitized setting to keep the audiences comatose and the twitterites will rejoice that the bad things in fiction are properly censored in the name of social good.
You can keep that garbage, thank you.
Considering Paizo simply dropped slavery from their setting altogether (or at least was planning to) without any explanation (even though it was part of humanity's backstory on Golarion IIRC) it's no wonder WotC doesn't want to touch Dark Sun with a 10 foot pole.
I even saw some unofficial supplement for Ravenloft that made Strahd female in order to reduce "problematic" elements somehow? Seems like those people didn't get the memo that Strahd is the villain and vampires have a bit of a "compelling women into relationships" (to put it lightly) thing going on about them in general.
"Made Strahd female"
Do they know that would make Strahd a predatory LGBTQ vampire rather than just a predatory vampire. With all of the "portraying LGBTQ people as predatory is damaging to the LGBTQ community" sentiment, the person that made those unofficial modules is either not really progressive or smart.
25:13 "In this realm of fire, we stumble across a small lizard child, called a Verini, who are entirely unique to this game."
Me: Hey, DM, can we send the party to the Land of the Lost to meet a Sleestak?
DM: We have Sleestaks on Athas.
Sleestaks on Athas:
Dark Sun isn't problematic in the sense it has insensitive themes. It's problematic in that it contradicts how WOTC has built modern Dungeons and Dragons. "There is a place for everything in the core rulebooks in every setting," is directly contradicted by the fact that certain Races and monsters are extinct in Dark Sun while others are dramatically different. Certain Classes like Paladins don't exist on Athas. Adapting Dark Sun to 5e (or One D&D) would be a pain in the neck for WOTC and they don't want to deal with it. So they just said "it's problematic so no new material, but the 2e books are print on demand. Good enough, right?" and called it done for the day.
I loved the Dark Sun setting. I could never get people to give up Forgotten Realms for it though. Wake of the Ravager had been my favorite D&D game up to that point, but unfortunately I was never able to finish it because of bugs. Thanks for this video, a lot of good memories.
41:43 I mean, Ravenloft and Dragonlance always tackled racism even more overtly than Darksun, and slavery was very prevalent in Spelljammer, so like you I also don't understand why thd setting is singled out.
Having said that I rather have current WoTC not touch any of the older settings except Forgotten Realms, Greyhawk and Mystara, because they've shown to be extremelly incompetent on understanding the more thematic settings.
They likely couldn't handle Greyhawk, Mystara or any of the others either.
@@DIEGhostfishman which setting is mystara?
Honestly, it's probably more that Psionics are supposed to be more common than Magic users in the setting. D&D Psionics rules have always been wonky and 5E hasn't even tried to publish a system for handling them as their own thing.
@@JLT0087didn't everyone just give up on Psionics as anything other than "just spells but not _those_ spells or *those* spells" right around Pathfinder? I remember Occult/Horror Adventures both treating psychic ability outside of the Kineticist as just different magic, though I'm not familiar with how psionics worked in 4E; I just remember thinking that 3.5 actually made it feel like its own thing and not just Spellcasting 3.0
Creations of brilliant creative minds are now in the hands of spineless, talentless worms. Fate of every gaming company, created by brilliant, passionate people.
Heres how you solve this issue:
1.) Give Hasbro the middle finger
2.) Go play Mork Borg in the Dark Sun Setting
3.) Have way more fun
Watching these game explorations is incredibly inspiring and endearing in your editing style, but above all I applaud the way you handle the debunking of the "Darksun" controversy in such a clear and clear and uplifting manner. As a writer of my own setting heavily inspired by Darksun, its environmental and anti tyranny message is not lost on me, in fact, its downright invigorating for our daring EARTH SCORCHING times. I've been working on my own alien fantasy fiction that tackles topics like this in ways as metal yet aggressively earnest as Darksun felt to me, and I heavily agree you can't half-ass this setting if you mean to bring it back or recreate it.
I've seen people reduce Darksun to just some pulp Sword & Sorcery masculine bloodbath without ever dwelling in its true narrative potential, and thats fine, but I think its world and message is problematic in the sense that, it makes people think, genuinely, in a good way. Maybe even hit closer to home for a lot of people living in places that are burning. Living in Mexico "water wars" are something my politicians are talking about casually becoming a reality, so Darksun is not just escapist fiction, its vindicating fiction to strengthen one's beliefs and ideals. I exaggerate in tone but, I truly mean it. Thanks for covering the series!
if you ever want to publish your setting, I would be interested in checking it out!
Funny thing about the part about hopeful ending, William SRD, is that people actually hated when Dark Sun as a meta narrative became less grim dark at least the novels (like after Tyr got a revolution, Sorceror Kings were killed one by one and setting became more hopeful), along with “we have a sea right there and they are stuck on a continent”.
So 4E stuck with Tyr liberation timeline.
The last see was more like a big lake. Though that was a cool and very strange expansion setting.
When I was a young adult, I had the AD&D CD-ROM Game box set that included both Dark Sun games, the Al-Qadim game, and the two open-world games from the same era. The disc for this game included the soundtrack as Redbook audio, so I would spend many hours listening to all the various BGMs *and* the cutscene audio, it was fantastic. Sadly, I decided to get rid of all the discs in the early 00s and have regretted it ever since. Fortunately you can hear the soundtrack on RUclips with a little effort.
I feel like I had that same box, though I swear it was both Dark Sun games, Menzo, Al-Qadim, and both Ravenloft games.
@@PaleHorseShabuShabu Yeah, that was exactly it!
You sold me on Dark Sun completely now. Been interested in it before but this video... Chef kiss. Fantastic video!
I'm so tired of hearing " _Problematic_ " as an excuse to not write stories or not bring back stories.
I think that the only reason that Dark Sun isn't being brought back is because modern D&D wants the game to be as simplified as possible, and Dark Sun has:
-Every class rewritten and rebuilt, which clashes with the modern subclass system. Like you can plop a standard Adventure League character into almost any setting and it would work, but you just can't do that with Dark Sun.
-Magic being a far more complicated force than in other settings, with arcane magic being industrial pollution, and divine magic not really working out for those who use it.
-Psionics, an entirely seperate, alien magic system to 5e that has complicated interactions with actual magic depending on your DM.
-It would require them to work on lore that wasn't already written, as some important aspects of Dark Sun's lore aren't finished.
Also, Hasbro probably doesn't want an anti-corporate message in their games.
I really loved the analysis of the Dark Sun setting and how it mirrors the struggles of our own world. I think you are very much correct that it resonates with younger people. Settings like these are my favorite, brutal and grim in ways that are almost realistic, and yet seem like they are begging you to set things right and try your hardest. Great video
Darksun is Darksun for a reason! My older tabletop friends said they enjoyed campaigns of freeing slaves, that moment of freedom and being a force for good, to then be cut down dead. They're living John Brown's best life!
It's only problematic when you refuse to put in the work. I wanted to play an OG half-giant from athas and had to pull darksun and spelljammer out to come up with a proper back story in order to play him on Toril. Had a muti page backstory and managed to go completely ham in developing this guys parents as epic gladiators in a party that subdued the ravager and found an oldschool Psijammer helm that they managed to rig to a ship and take off, escape the crimson sphere, shanghaied by mind flayers, rescued by spelljammers and dropped at a monastery on Toril because they realized I was a kid and not a victim of brain damage. The DM looked through everything and told me that if I was willing to put in that much work for a single character then he couldn't wait to see me role-play him. I miss that guy. He was definitely fun to play.
A lot of the "problematic" nature of Dark Sun is making it work with the rules. The way XP mostly revolves around milestones in current D&D and characters of similar level all being comparable is directly refuted in the Dark Sun rules. Defilers in particular are not balanced in any way. It's an incredibly easy shortcut to power. A lot of the fun in 5e is figuring out a way to tweak the rules to make your character the most "optimal" it can be. Dark Sun presents players with a clear way to do that and immediately tells them that doing that sort of thing is what is wrong with the world.
And it's different enough of a setting that the majority of existing content cannot be slotted into it very well, and a lot of the content in Dark Sun can't seamlessly be put into other D&D settings. Forgotten Realms setting philosophy is to throw in every classic fantasy trope and creature you can think of and make it work, while Dark Sun's philosophy is to throw almost every classic fantasy trope you can think of OUT. D&D adventures are called 'modules' because you are supposed to plug any of them into your campaign with little effort. That just doesn't work with Dark Sun.
They should just make it basically a new game that is only kinda compatible with the rest of dnd. The for example this was the phonics setting. Which is not even a thing yet in 5e
@@AL-lh2htwhy would they ever take that gamble on a setting they know sold terribly?
@@armorclasshero2103the narrative is "WotC bad", don't confuse them with the economic reality of the situation!
I loved the first game, Shattered Lands, but I never finished WotR because I'm sure something bugged in the game. The furthest I got was some mining area with Elves I think. What was cool to me about the WotR CD was you could put the cd-rom into a music cd-player and listen to the soundtrack. Many of the MIDI songs from the first game were re-recorded with instruments.
Amazing video. There are so many great stories tucked away into these older games and they deserve to be brought up again.
The strange cosmology of the setting had such fun little extras in it, like all the paths through the Astral plane to the Grey and Athas beyond were barred up by the Gith, before they split into the Githyanki and Githzerai. The place was so messed up they went to raid and noped out. Athas's spot in the Astral Plane is the "Here be Monsters" spot on the map.
That is, if I'm recalling correctly...
The rant at the end about new Dark Sun releases being about bean counters is cope. It's exactly what it says on the tin. After something as tangential as hadozee becoming a giant controversy for WoTC, they will never give modern audiences anything but the mildest milquetoast settings to avoid offending them. Dark Sun? Forget it.
Great video, great message, great passion behind the screen. You drew me in to a setting I've only ever scraped the surface of, and made me realize how bright this grimdark world truly glimmers with the hope of a better one, eventually.
You deserve a lot of interaction and engagement for this video, that's for damn sure. Thanks a lot for this wonderful content.
I played these when I was eleven to twelve years old. Never beat them! Introduced me to the artist Brom who does most of the iconic art for the Dark Sun setting, all the book covers and paintings. Loved the recap! Always kept hope that one day a Dark Sun game would reemerge.
I agree with most of your assessment.
I have encountered some people over the decades though who wanted Dark Sun to be more some sort of Gor rpg (if you know, you know) and felt the settings progress with the overthrow of that one Sorcerer King “ruined it” and would find the very “done well” version you talk about would do likewise.
These were people who revelled in the setting being D&D on Hard Mode, violent and amoral, and they rejected the big themes of the setting and it’s plot arc. And from what I’ve seen and read of the setting they missed out on key parts of what made Dark Sun so good and interesting.
But done well as you suggest a revived Dark Sun game could be brilliant and timely.
You can't police how people like to play their games. Hell, most people play regular D&D as a bunch of muderhobos killing random people for EXP, so the Dark Sun you're describing there is just regular D&D in Dark Sun.
The "done well" version of Dark Sun by WotC would just be a sanitized pile of garbage with all of the thematic parts and fundamental lore pillars gutted in the name of selling safe garbage to a mindless audience of consumers. It'll be a desert setting without any flavour or struggle, let alone the anti-slavery parts or the climate crisis, those are big no-nos for both the corpos and the online slack-activists.
thanks for covering this! it's awesome to see these old D&D games getting some love!
I was always puzzled why no new games were made in Dark Sun setting or Planescape setting, not to mention Spelljammer. There are SO MANY cool options and themes which perfectly fit a video game. Dark Sun specifically. Everyone loves D&D and everyone loves posapoc, this is a win-win.
Been loving the first Dark Sun video, so I was happy to see this.
Tbh I don't trust that modern WotC doesn't just lazily think Dark Sun is problematic; they have shown to be pretty braindead about culture war topics in the past.
fantastic video! i have been thinking about running a dark sun game for years and this might just be the push i need to actually put that together! thank you!
I loved this video; great job! I totally agree with you on the Dark Sun "controversy," too. It would be amazing to see it resurrected for 5th edition.
Currently running a Dark sun campaign converted to 5e and I'm enjoying it a lot. The idea of a desert world makes things so much more mysterious and there is always a sense that anything could come roaming through the sands and stones to easily squash the party. The only problem is trying to figure out plot hooks for the political and social aspects of the world when there isn't nearly as much source material as the other settings.
Would love to hear if anyone else is doing the same and what resources they use to help them as a DM!
You mention Al-Quadim, which means you might eventually tackle that game. Yes, please!
So you went up the ziggurat, lickety-split. A certain A. Rimmer would be proud.
The editorializing at the end was so good! I’m emotional abt dark sun 🥲
Love the game or hate it, you gotta admit that, for that era of gaming... The cut scenes go hard. 👍
You've earned my subscription sir! Thanks for takeing the time and care to explain what makes Darksun amazing!
40:41 The word "problematic" never comes with an explanation, its entire purpose is coercing agreement without providing details.
This was one of my first RPGs and I'm a huge fan.
There were some clever interactions like poisoning the mind flayer diners at the table (which you showed), trolling a flayer scientist and his assistant by stealing chemical samples, and pre-emptively crippling the Elder Brain encounter by throwing their own chemical weapon through the boss room door.
The bugs were pretty severe in the original release, doing the Yuan-ti area fight against the warrior El for some reason completely stopped you from entering the flayer area. The door would be open but something about that fight permanently removed the interaction point. The most recent patch fixed that but I still found some oddities in the yuan-ti tunnel area, a lot of broken maps, and I don't think the halfling village side quests ever fully worked.
Excellent vid!
I used to see all these DnD games in magazines of the day and wish I could play them. Nice to be able to see them here 👍
You're spot on with your comments on why Hasbro won't do anything for D&D but Forgotten Realms. I think they have two basic goals: sell lots of stuff, and keep a tight grip on the PR surrounding their products. They have successfully convinced players, especially new ones, that FR is THE setting that D&D takes place in - not just the default, as it became after Greyhawk, but the only true canonical one. New players will scoff at homebrew settings as being cheap knockoffs, and even house rules that can't be found in any of WotC's ten thousand "official" books are dismissed as invalid. It's not the players' fault, it's just what Hasbro has cultivated over the years.
This is great for Hasbro, because they can keep all of the so-called "problematic" stuff from being associated with their property (I mean, if people think Dark Sun is bad, they should see some of the homebrew campaigns from back in the old days), and they can convince people they have to buy their overpriced material if they want to play "real" D&D. They stick to FR because it has been so neutered over the years, and so overwrought that they have control over every minute detail. No other setting would let them keep as tight a grip on players' wallets, or the game's public perception.
Drizzt's big popularity, and thus the videogames racing to cameo him is a huge part of why they chose FR to make into their neutered setting too.
This is a bad take. Beyond the first 3 core books, there are only 8 source books and 10 campaign books. The Rest modules. And for most of 5e the number of books was much, much smaller.
This is vastly different for previous editions, especially 3e and 4e, which literally had hundreds of source books.
This smaller number of official rule books is actually something praised because it’s easier to get into whole having the rules be more tight and high quality.
In reality it’s likely because they want core dnd to be simple and not over complicated things while they produce their only small number of official books.
@@AL-lh2htuh, even if you combine both those editions together you wouldn't hit "hundreds"
I plan on making a Dark Sun campaign using the revised 5e guide that was fanmade. This has given me so much inspiration!
I never was interested in Dark Sun, because I don't really like desert post apocalyptic games and settings, but this video got me very hooked on it.
It's not D&D, but I think the theme resonates a lot with Werewolf: The Apocalypse. It's a hopeless struggle, a fight that cannot be won. But must be fought either way. Stories of desperate and heroic last struggles. Going out in a blaze of glory calling the name of Gaia.
Nice to know guitars are still alive and well in the post-apocalyptic bronze age.
Enviromentalism and Abolitionism are the core heroic themes of Dark Sun, it's literally Post-Apocalyptic Fantasypunk
For the question what I would buy a Sorcerer Monarch... Probably some socks. Everybody needs socks.
It would be really cool to see a fantastic solarpunk type future for Dark Sun
Thank you for the coverage of this forgotten duology. I've always been very intrigued by the Dark Sun setting. There is something about it that really appeals to me, but it is hard for me to find venues to experience it. The PC games are out-dated and none of the people I regularly play tabletop RPGs with seem particularly fond of the idea of running a game with old school D&D rules anymore - especially when the unspeakable horror of psionics rules are involved.
A lot of what Kyle Brink says shows he doesn't understand Dark Sun, or any of the "problematic" D&D settings.
Excellent video; you really have a lot of passion for these projects! As an aside, in regards the "Dark Sun culture war", the simple fact of the matter is that I don't think that I'd trust modern WotC to write Dark Sun competently, period. Look what they did to Ravenloft and Spelljammer; the former is full of completely unneccessary rewrites, the latter couldn't even be bothered to include rules for running ship-to-ship combat. Torog only knows how they'll mutilate Planescape. No, I'll stick to Dark Sun and 4th edition, thank you.
What are the unnecessary rewrites from the Ravenloft settings? Most of the ones that I've noticed are very minor and easily handwaved if the DM really likes them. It's hard to argue that Curse of Strahd is not a great book/setting, although it feels a bit unfinished as is usual with 5e.
@@Weinderthe issue is that the rewrites happened in the first place. WoTc said there would be updating the setting to 5e rules, and they instead gave us Barovia and bupkis.
That is some perfect world building there, in this Dark Sun thing, really unique ideas. The wizards becoming dragons is a marvellous consept. I don't know anything about it and of the d&d, and it's different worlds, I only remember these places like Ylarium, Karameikos, Darokin, Specularium and such, and then there was the Dragon Lance series. So this is completely new to me.
Honestly the story of this game sounds so good I might just steal it for my own D&D campaign.
This was a great watch. Loved the narrative at the end. Awesome stuff.
I loved Shattered Lands, despite all the flaws and bugs, but this one I couldn't finish, it was too ambitious for its own good. About half way through I just couldn't keep up and gave up. Both Dark Sun games should be remade, in for example BG3 engine.
Made it through so much of the game with lots and lots of saves and restarts, up until the Air Drake Nest. When BG 1 came out I became so hopeful we would get another treatment of the property. I was even happier to see the online game come up (I was working so much and had little kids so I didn't even have a chance then)... did anyone ever get a chance to even play it?
Amazing review of the game and love your insights.
Oh, Avengions have always been one of my favorite species, too! This great counterbalance to the primeval destruction of DS's dragon
I mostly came back to this video so I could watch that SICK cutscene at the very beginning again. It goes so hard.
Dark Sun - Our setting is problematic and wont vibe well in the modern day.
Kenshi - hold my sake
Thanks for the video. Dark Sun is my favourite setting and the Prism Pentad is my favourite DnD novel setting.
The cutscenes look so good, I wish this style of animation was still in use today, but I assume the amount of work involved is what turns people away?
Individual sprites for each frame like a diorama? Yeah, seems a lot of resources for little payoff. I remember how many old games had amazing art for minor scenes and sequels or remakes got rid of those as they couldn't justify animating something that will be shown for so little time.
Automatic thumbs up before it even starts lol I love this channel!
A ziggurat contained within a pyramid?
Shit just got real...
Love the channel. Just subscribed, keep up the good rpg/cept/ttrpg content.
Another great video! Honestly I didn't know much of the setting, I would occasionally see a one sided "Modern players can't handle Dark Sun!" But I'll never see anyone complaining that it was problematic, so the whole culture war just feels so manufactured and as an easy excuse.
I would Love a current version of it, the setting just so interesting, but making a good modern version would require WoTC to spend more than 3 months on it.
If Fear and Hunger can get a fan base then WotC/Hasbro have no excuse, maybe they should grow a pair and stop caving to any pressure from Twitter fake outrage.
I just love that a godlike being is called Boris
I remember finding this and Stone Prophet in a bargain bin for 2$ back in the day. Funnily enough, they both had game-breaking bugs that prevented completion late in the game(a necessary area transition plopped the party square under a merchant's carpet in Wake, and a mandatory cutscene in SP would go to a black screen rather than play). Sadly, as you mentioned, easy access to patches wasn't a thing at the time, so I never did get to finish either of them.
It's not that old D&D properties are problematic and it's not that new fans or a new era don't fit well with any of it. They all fit well, the fans both old and new still love the properties. So what's the problem? William is right. These creators/devs are lazy and want to use any excuse to get out of having to show actual talent and skill. A person left a darn good message on a video William did before about how there is no Diablo/Grim Dawn like ARPG set in the jungles of Chult or a game where you dance with the lord of Chessenta's daughter while sinking Waterdhavian ships with a letter of marque in the vein of Sid Meiers Pirates! That user was right. There is no creativity or real talent and skill left and what is left is in people so lazy they would rather try to stir up a controversy about a property than try to remake it. It's sad but it's true. The only people too sensitive for old D&D properties are the people in my age group who are now in control of those properties and only because it will trigger them when they learn that they can't just make another gacha game with Drizzt's face.
Another issue is the amount of 5e official books that are made
Is shockling low.
Unlike previous editions where they created a source books for every single thing you can imagine and beyond.
Think about it, one of the newest source book was a book on giants. How many years has 5e existed? It took them that many years to do one book on giants m.
@@AL-lh2htthey've done 2.
The fact that Dark Sun, and a lot of other settings that are currently tripping the light nostalgic, were never profitable apparently means nothing, good to know.
Sincerely, the only person who ever tried to play a _Ghostwalk_ game.