@@raditts Haha, that is kind of true - they were very fond of "design choices" like making it easy for the player to get stuck in an unwinnable state. However, this particular puzzle really takes the cake since it just has all the bad stuff all at once, and some aspects of it, like having a very short and never repeated window to act, are really not typical even of Sierra.
@@raditts Well, it's more that they failed to evolve. Early text adventure games were *brutal." Believe it or not, Sierra improved on adventure game design quite a bit... at first. But then they got stuck in a rut (probably due to turning into a content farm) and ignored the further refinements coming out of LucasArts and other companies.
I hadn't stopped to think about it, but yeah, if you break down the many parts.... (1) an ambiguous trigger event, so players won't be ready to replicate it (2) no clear motivation or hint for what you're meant to do (3) a very unforgiving and sudden timed event when your character isn't in danger (4) apparent finicky pixel clicking (even though they coded it out, the player will assume they need to click on the cat) (5) no feedback to let the player link the dead end to this event (6) no feedback to let the player know if they've used the wrong item to solve the puzzle, meaning that there are several OTHER dead ends that the player won't link back to this event.
Within the context of the game’s story is the established fact that Graham can speak with animals; there is no reason not to have - within the intro to that scene - the rat’s squeaking being actual pleas for help.
It's almost impressive how many fuck-you lose states KQ5 can put you in. It's right up there with Leisure Suit Larry 2. I can't remember how I figured out the cat/mouse puzzle, I'm pretty sure I never used a hint book, but one thing I do remember is that if something happens on screen that doesn't involve you, then you made a mistake because it WAS supposed to involve you.
That's a great rule of thumb for old Sierra games: there _are_ no idle background events, ever. As for this one specifically, the only hint is the phrasing "mangy" cat and "terrified" rat, the weakest implication that you are supposed to save the rat. (Also undermined by the cultural stereotype of cats = good vs. rats = bad, or mice = good vs. rats = bad).
@@Stratelier Yeah to be fair the game at least had a series of other puzzles where you had to help animals to gain benefits so there's even a precedent there. I never really found this puzzle that bad in KQ5. If you're used to old school adventure games, seeing a background event like that and realizing you didn't act should be enough to prompt a reload. It's really nothing compared to having to use the peas on the blue beast (who shows up randomly) and using the peas specifically as just a means of emptying the sack it's in. Throwing the moldy cheese into the wand machine. Or randomly waiting around for Mordack to go to sleep, which wasn't a random event and required you to be on a specific screen. Those were just such moon logic solutions.
@@taragnor Oh that last one ... a "waiting puzzle" on a single screen in an area where waiting too long on any (other) screen will get you a Game Over. FUN times indeed.
For real. The one that stuck with me most is a custard pie you have to buy with a silver coin because you’ll die if you don’t have one way later in the game. You can also pay for it with a gold coin or a golden needle, and if you do either of those your game is now unwinnable. Or you can just straight up eat the pie. This game WANTS you to restart it multiple times.
Out of all the "the game is now secretly unwinnable" conditions that old adventure games were infamous for, this one is the most notorious. Especially since you usually get the stick WAY sooner than you get the boot, which requires a lengthy journey through the desert maze on the edge of the map. Most people will trigger the cat long before they ever get the boot. Other unwinnable triggers: eating the pie, eating the leg of lamb before you need to, buying the wrong stuff, spending the gold coin to buy the pie. The 2nd worst though was getting the gold coin. You entered a treasure vault with an obvious lamp you had to pick up, then about two seconds to leave before the door closed and trapped you inside to die. You also had to pick up a gold coin before you left, but the entire screen was a MOUNTAIN of gold coins in the treasure trove, but only one specific gold coin could be picked up. Most people would just grab the lamp before escaping, and the vault would close with no way of ever getting back. Of course, the worst King's Quest puzzle of all time is always the golden bridle from KQ4.
Most games wouldn't even be able to come close to "throw pie at Yeti" (a pie which you can eat beforehand to resolve your hunger just as you can with the meat, which you can also lose by feeding it to the eagle before having the chance to eat a bit yourself). But at least that one doesn't have a window of about three seconds.
I've never understood the problem with the Yeti puzzle, but then I'm a big Three Stooges and cartoon fan, where the best use of a cream pie is always to hit someone in the face with it. The first time I ever played KQ5, something distracted me from the screen right as I entered this screen area, so I completely missed that anything happened at all, falling into a walking dead state without even realizing it. I always stick up for Sierra's style but that struck me as a bit of a dirty trick.
Another funny thing about this puzzle is that you can control the speed of the game in the settings. If you set it to a high speed, you'd get hardly any time to throw the fish/boot/stick/whatever at the cat.
I think the "puzzle" with the fish hook is worse. It's easy to miss. then later, have to A: Get captured and thrown in the dungeon. B: Notice the mouse hole within a fairly short time limit. C: think to use the fish hook on the mouse hole within said time limit to get the cheese. If you miss any of that, the game continues as normal but is now unbeatable.
@@pigpotty As far as I recall, there's *something* at some point that hints at the cheese being useful for that... maybe a "familiar smell" or something.
Oh man, I couldn't even get that far back in the day. I would enter the temple in the desert and then get locked in inside forever because my computer was literally too slow for me to be able to grab the item I needed and get out in time. The animation speed and the clock speed were two different things and made that section impossible.
Ah, yes, we do not miss the era of non-standardized timing in videogames. Various other Sierra games had the _opposite_ problem: if your computer was too _fast_ then certain areas (including some puzzles) could become unwinnable or even crash the game due to the clock running too fast. There were even small third-party apps like "cpukiller" designed solely for reducing the # of clock cycles available to a PC game (something which modern emulators like DOSBox provide as a standard feature for accurate emulation). As one of the less egregious examples, in Quest for Glory 1, if you played a Fighter then you could (optionally) duel the weaponsmaster at the castle, but he played at cpu clock speed where you were synced to real time speed, making him impossible to defeat on faster computers.
Using the fish on the cat simply never occurred to me. It's interesting that they have separate animations for the fish as well as the impossible-in-normal-play leg o' lamb. I'm guessing the lamb leg was somehow obtainable beforehand at some point in the game's development, and then changed without being removed. I remember reading somewhere that there was going to be a puzzle to find the key to the inn's kitchen, which is why it says the stupid line "Finding the kitchen door locked, Graham unlocks it before going outside." In that case the lamb leg would be obtainable, but not the rope, since you need to be hit on the head, tied up, and then rescued by the rat to get that particular item.
KQ5 is a medieval fantasy version of Groundhog Day where King Graham does a specific and obscure series of tasks and moves, perfected over personal decades of trial-and-error and countless gruesome deaths, in order to save his kingdom. "Rats are disease-carrying vermin responsible for plagues and tragedy in our world... but on my 2314th day I chucked a boot at a cat chasing one and somehow that timeline was the one."
For me, nothing comes close to finding out decades later that I had only played about half of Castlevania: Symphony of the Night because the game's total completion is actually measured as 200% and I didn't know that the awful ending that you get by beating Richter normally is only one of several.
My only defense for Sierra is that MAYBE they thought that most people would spend time trying to save the rat, since Graham has befriended animals in the past. Expanding the window of opportunity may have been the solution, but dead ends aren't fun either way and goes back to that old school point 'n click logic they would dish out to extend gameplay life (and increase hint book buys and hint line calls😈).
I mean it's not THAT obscure if you were playing any other Sierra point and click at the time. If you saw something happen in a game back then it wasn't for flavour, you HAD to do something. They didn't spend all that time animating it for nothing. It might not seem obvious NOW that animations are super easy to make and design, but back then? People knew it was there for a reason. The games make it really obvious that animations are hints, They did the same thing in Police Quest and Space Quest constantly.
I think the issue with this puzzle in particular though is the short time window you get to figure it out and then act on it, given that you only get one shot at it. Most of the other timed puzzles tend to give you a larger time window and/or are more clearly signposted. I mean, there ARE worse Sierra puzzles than this, but that doesn't really absolve this so much as it demonstrates how BS some of them got.
There were TONS of cryptic "puzzles" in the KQ series. KQ3 was pretty rough with the Cat Cookie, but that's just how it was with KQ1-7 (as far as I know).
You can at least exclude KQ7 from the list, it adopted the more-modern "no dead ends" design philosophy: Sure, there were still plenty of things that would kill you, but (a) you were allowed to quickly undo the mistake _without_ needing to manually keep a prior save, and (b) you were allowed to leave the puzzle and explore elsewhere until you found whatever you needed. One of the largest examples in KQ6 was the Minotaur's labyrinth. You needed (I think it was) four in-game items to survive it (plus clues in the printed manual). If you didn't have them all, then (at the point where you'd be thrown in) the game would give you a cryptic hint about being not ready, after which there was no way to know when you actually _were_ ready. (Back in the day, we were stumped for a while at needing the brick.)
@@Stratelier You know, reading a lot of the comments here make me think about how "modern" game design would handle an old King's Quest. All of its "dead-long-before-you-know-it" traps are so much a part of these games' identity that I'd like to keep at least some, if not most of them. But if you somehow tell the player that they've screwed themselves out of a late-game situation, they'll know right away that they need to reload, and also, how did *you* know that, narrator?! I don't recall those cryptic hints from the KQ6 labyrinth, but it kind of sounds like the answer. Especially if they can make the text just the slightest bit different than normal, or by using a vague hint that's hidden in a phrase.
Anyone remember the similar puzzles in Infocom's The Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy? Buy a cheese sandwich! (You don't have money, but you don't need it. Also, there's no cheese sandwich in the original story.) Feed the cheese sandwich to a hungry dog! Then the Earth gets blown up, you do a thousand things, and toward the end of the game, you need to have done it to survive.
Well, it could have been worse. Imagine if a random number is generated at the start of the game; 50% of the time you need to save the rat so it helps you later on. The other 50% of the time you need to throw the boot at the rat to stun it so the cat gets a meal, and then the cat rescues you out of gratitude later on. With no indication which state you're in.
That game was full of if you didn't do X earlier you're doomed later! But man I did not know these strange facts Also: why does the Bear PUNCH Graham out with a right hook?
We used to play the NES version of King's Quest V a lot, and could never actually make any real progress because of how esoteric the solutions are. I don't think we ever saved that damn rat.
Wasn't this also the game that made you squeeze some honey on a random bit of forest floor, sprinkle on some emeralds, and lie in wait to catch a leprechaun or something?
Yes, THANK YOU. Everyone always complains about the cat and the boot, but the honey-and-gemstones-on-the-ground puzzle doesn't even give you a clue that you need to do anything there. Okay, there's some glowy eyes in the background, but why on earth would anyone think they belong to an elf that likes to steal gemstones?? Okay, rant over.
@@MarisaReset Also, he claims he never takes anything without giving something in return, yet as soon as he takes one of those emeralds, he immediately bolts. And if you drop all 3 emeralds without using the honey, he never comes back again, and you're the one who's stuck.
I actually don't think the cat-boot puzzle is as bad as the innkeeper's cellar. As far as I know the cat-boot only happens when you can do something about it, and you're clearly meant to do SOMEthing. In the cellar you have to intentionally get captured, in a manner that previously killed you and allowed you no ability to interact or do anything.
Just hanging out on the ol' cat strip with my adventure game buds. Great little video thank you! 1,000% go support all of those albums, King's chill is ❤❤
I feel like your nostalgic ribbing at these games is actually helping ruin their legacy, and make people hate them. Even if it’s not that you’re intent
In the NES version of the game, it gives you unlimited tries (IE - if you don't toss the boot at the cat, you can come back to the screen and do it again) Nintendo thought it was too cruel of a puzzle as it was originally and made them change it for the NES port.
P&C games were designed this way. They wanted you to get frustrated and either buy the solution guide or call the 900 hint line. It's just like NES and arcade games getting harder the longer you play them to increase playtime. If a game were completable in a single sitting they wouldn't be fun and people wouldn't buy them.
Roberta Williams sued the creator of Old Man Murray over making fun of her. There was a settlement that included shuttering the website 'Portal of Evil' which was also ran by the OMM creator. Williams wasn't satisfied and attempted to get the Wikipedia entry from OMM redacted for 'not being relevant enough'. Apparently for a time you could see her comments on the matter in the entry's discussion where she was openly conspiring with another user that had been made fun of. These people had apparently ganged up like a bunch of batman rogues to be petty af.
Roberta is by all accounts a terrible human being. Even the Dolomite actor was repulsed by her behavior after working with her on a project. I'm guessing having *Daryl Gates* do VO work for a police game was also a great big red flag.
This is not just bad game design. This is broken and unforgivable design that prevents anyone from finishing the game they bought without resorting to hint books, hint lines or this sort of thing. In fact, I never knew a single person who finished that game on their own. Everyone I knew eventually learned the solution through word of mouth, magazines, etc. The thing is: was the decision to include something as egregious in the game on purpose?
Maybe this is just an example of my brain working differently than most, but to me, this is nowhere near the worst puzzle in the game. There's a cat chasing a rat. Of course you're supposed to save the rat. Throwing the boot was literally my first thought. Yes, it's annoying that the game gives you so little time, but that's why you save early and often. It's how you're supposed to escape the dark forest that makes me want to steal Roberta Williams's lunch money.
I did not know you could chuck the fish at the cat and make the game unwinnable. That makes it even more cruel to the player. I also didn't know you could get points using the stick if you clicked directly on the cat.
You can also give the gold coin, needle, or heart to the wrong people; which will also make the game unwinnable. As well as giving the eagle the custard pie instead of the leg of lamb.
When you think about it for more than two seconds, the King's Quest games really weren't that great. Day of the Tentacle completely blew every King's Quest game out of the water, and there were no puzzles in that game where you needed to accomplish something unreasonably fast. And the one thing you had to do quickly could be redone if you screwed it up. Sam and Max also accomplishes this to great effect.
Yeah. As much as I aesthetically prefer Sierra's adventure game UI over Lucas's, in retrospect their overall design philosophy of "no softlocks/dead-ends" is definitely superior.
@@Stratelier Not only that, but it isn't like you don't have to think to solve puzzles in Lucas games. The Sam and Max games in particular often require alot of thinking outside the box to get past situations. And that is where point and click games are at their strongest. It isn't necessary to have softlocks or dead ends in order to carry a good point and click game.
Does this one have any remakes? It seems pretty easy to fix these. Just have the cat chase the mouse away, or get another mouse, and come back. And, of course, block getting to the part where the trap is if you don't have the item you need.
The easiest fix would be for the rat to escape the cat (say into a mousehole under the building's foundation), and thereafter make it a recurring event (a better clue that this is an actual puzzle to be solved).
@@Stratelier Or it could be a different rat each time. Just as long as it repeats. But the part I'm not sure about would be if you wind up in that room and didn't get the rat. Modern game design, they would make it impossible to get in there without the rat.
@@ZipplyZane Agreed. As the video mentioned, this specific puzzle doesn't trigger until after you've obtained _some_ means to solve it, indicating the developers gave it some planning at all.
The problem is that this is only one of many MANY "puzzles" that you would discover softlocked you until hours later. It's like they went out of their way to screw over the player whenever possible. the game is literally designed around it.
I knew you could swap the boot and the stick (although not that clicking the stick ON the cat still gives you points), but fuuuuuuck, it also has "TAKE A FISH TO THE FACE" programmed in? Does the cat APPEAR if you have the fish and not the boot/stick? Cause you'd be well and truly fucked if so.
Can I nominate that one 'puzzle' in Full Throttle where you have to click on a specific pixel on a specific wall just before the end to find a secret entrance. It didn't work on my pc at all, maybe an issue with my mouse or monitor but didn't work. I remember as a kid painstakingly clicking each possible pixel on the screen and still no joy. I eventually found a guide so knew the exact spot... and it still didn't work. No clue to this day what that was about, and why it worked for others and not for me.
@@stryke-jn3kvThe “kick the wall” puzzle in Full Throttle *still* makes no sense to me. I’ve beaten the game dozens of times over the years, you’d think the right spot would be programmed into my muscle memory, and yet coming up against that part when playing through the Vita version a couple of weeks ago was still a tortuous trial-and-error situation just like the first time my 16 year old self encountered it. And all the “she was a kid, so you have to account for the height” and “give it a five count after the steam gaskets go off”s in the world don’t help.
@@oneshorteye_extras I must have had a different version. It wouldn't trigger all the time but if I went back and forth it would eventually trigger again.
I know that I would never have harmed a cat on purpose, even in a video game, so I am really glad to never have played this game. I'd never be able to finish it.
KQ3 is even worse in that regard, as you can kick the cat and you have to grab him and pluck some hair from him to use as a spell ingredient. (Try doing either of those things in the AGD remake, while Manannan is home, and he'll kill you for it.) But to be fair, neither of those cats are very friendly to begin with. And the series isn't very generous in regards to dogs either, as the only one you can pet is the one at the shop in KQ3.
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It's amazing how this one puzzle manages to break pretty much every principle of good game design.
I think that games like this that helped us define good game design - through knowing what it *isn't*
"Breaking every principle of good game design" is pretty much the mission statement of Sierra point-n-clicks.
@@raditts Haha, that is kind of true - they were very fond of "design choices" like making it easy for the player to get stuck in an unwinnable state. However, this particular puzzle really takes the cake since it just has all the bad stuff all at once, and some aspects of it, like having a very short and never repeated window to act, are really not typical even of Sierra.
@@raditts Well, it's more that they failed to evolve. Early text adventure games were *brutal." Believe it or not, Sierra improved on adventure game design quite a bit... at first. But then they got stuck in a rut (probably due to turning into a content farm) and ignored the further refinements coming out of LucasArts and other companies.
I hadn't stopped to think about it, but yeah, if you break down the many parts....
(1) an ambiguous trigger event, so players won't be ready to replicate it
(2) no clear motivation or hint for what you're meant to do
(3) a very unforgiving and sudden timed event when your character isn't in danger
(4) apparent finicky pixel clicking (even though they coded it out, the player will assume they need to click on the cat)
(5) no feedback to let the player link the dead end to this event
(6) no feedback to let the player know if they've used the wrong item to solve the puzzle, meaning that there are several OTHER dead ends that the player won't link back to this event.
Within the context of the game’s story is the established fact that Graham can speak with animals; there is no reason not to have - within the intro to that scene - the rat’s squeaking being actual pleas for help.
I forgot how funny that bear death is.
Kid friendly mauling? X
Backhand punch? O
Fun Fact: The NES version allows you to reset the puzzle by leaving and coming back. The PC version gives you only one shot.
Do not miss your chance to throw.
Ahhhh. I was watching this wondering how I beat this back in the day. Had the NES version.
@@blacksheep9950 This opportunity comes once in a playthrough, yo.
It's almost impressive how many fuck-you lose states KQ5 can put you in. It's right up there with Leisure Suit Larry 2.
I can't remember how I figured out the cat/mouse puzzle, I'm pretty sure I never used a hint book, but one thing I do remember is that if something happens on screen that doesn't involve you, then you made a mistake because it WAS supposed to involve you.
That's a great rule of thumb for old Sierra games: there _are_ no idle background events, ever. As for this one specifically, the only hint is the phrasing "mangy" cat and "terrified" rat, the weakest implication that you are supposed to save the rat. (Also undermined by the cultural stereotype of cats = good vs. rats = bad, or mice = good vs. rats = bad).
@@Stratelier Yeah to be fair the game at least had a series of other puzzles where you had to help animals to gain benefits so there's even a precedent there. I never really found this puzzle that bad in KQ5. If you're used to old school adventure games, seeing a background event like that and realizing you didn't act should be enough to prompt a reload.
It's really nothing compared to having to use the peas on the blue beast (who shows up randomly) and using the peas specifically as just a means of emptying the sack it's in. Throwing the moldy cheese into the wand machine. Or randomly waiting around for Mordack to go to sleep, which wasn't a random event and required you to be on a specific screen. Those were just such moon logic solutions.
@@taragnor Oh that last one ... a "waiting puzzle" on a single screen in an area where waiting too long on any (other) screen will get you a Game Over. FUN times indeed.
For real. The one that stuck with me most is a custard pie you have to buy with a silver coin because you’ll die if you don’t have one way later in the game. You can also pay for it with a gold coin or a golden needle, and if you do either of those your game is now unwinnable. Or you can just straight up eat the pie. This game WANTS you to restart it multiple times.
Out of all the "the game is now secretly unwinnable" conditions that old adventure games were infamous for, this one is the most notorious. Especially since you usually get the stick WAY sooner than you get the boot, which requires a lengthy journey through the desert maze on the edge of the map. Most people will trigger the cat long before they ever get the boot.
Other unwinnable triggers: eating the pie, eating the leg of lamb before you need to, buying the wrong stuff, spending the gold coin to buy the pie. The 2nd worst though was getting the gold coin. You entered a treasure vault with an obvious lamp you had to pick up, then about two seconds to leave before the door closed and trapped you inside to die. You also had to pick up a gold coin before you left, but the entire screen was a MOUNTAIN of gold coins in the treasure trove, but only one specific gold coin could be picked up. Most people would just grab the lamp before escaping, and the vault would close with no way of ever getting back.
Of course, the worst King's Quest puzzle of all time is always the golden bridle from KQ4.
It sounds like you don't need the boot for the cat
That bear turning around and just punching you in the face is goddamn comedy gold. I almost spat out my coffee.
Shame you can't throw the custard pie at the cat.
And then the boot at the yeti. Or just fail
@@camwyn256 Fail, naturally. This is KQ5
Most games wouldn't even be able to come close to "throw pie at Yeti" (a pie which you can eat beforehand to resolve your hunger just as you can with the meat, which you can also lose by feeding it to the eagle before having the chance to eat a bit yourself).
But at least that one doesn't have a window of about three seconds.
I've never understood the problem with the Yeti puzzle, but then I'm a big Three Stooges and cartoon fan, where the best use of a cream pie is always to hit someone in the face with it.
The first time I ever played KQ5, something distracted me from the screen right as I entered this screen area, so I completely missed that anything happened at all, falling into a walking dead state without even realizing it. I always stick up for Sierra's style but that struck me as a bit of a dirty trick.
@@sheets75 It's not the pie itself so much as it's the asshole way that you can end up soft-locking yourself with it through no fault of your own.
You can eat the pie immediately after getting it, which makes the game unable to be beaten without even knowing it until hours later.
@@sheets75The problem is that you can eat the pie immediately (which is an intuitive option), long before you’re even aware the Yeti exists.
Three and a half minutes?! How can I fall asleep to this?! I need some nice, long-form adventure gaming! I beg of you, OSE! 😭🙏
Working on it!
*strong bad voice* FISH'D!!!
HEY! Here's your fish!
Another funny thing about this puzzle is that you can control the speed of the game in the settings. If you set it to a high speed, you'd get hardly any time to throw the fish/boot/stick/whatever at the cat.
I think the "puzzle" with the fish hook is worse.
It's easy to miss. then later, have to
A: Get captured and thrown in the dungeon.
B: Notice the mouse hole within a fairly short time limit.
C: think to use the fish hook on the mouse hole within said time limit to get the cheese.
If you miss any of that, the game continues as normal but is now unbeatable.
Came here for this. Also, the cheese powers the magic wand machine, or something?? This game can go fall in a hole 😂
@@pigpotty From memory isn't using the cheese literally the very last puzzle in the game?
@@JPH1138 something like that. like who makes the cheese you find in a hole the key to beating the game's finale? bizarre lol
@@pigpotty As far as I recall, there's *something* at some point that hints at the cheese being useful for that... maybe a "familiar smell" or something.
Oh man, I couldn't even get that far back in the day. I would enter the temple in the desert and then get locked in inside forever because my computer was literally too slow for me to be able to grab the item I needed and get out in time. The animation speed and the clock speed were two different things and made that section impossible.
Ah, yes, we do not miss the era of non-standardized timing in videogames.
Various other Sierra games had the _opposite_ problem: if your computer was too _fast_ then certain areas (including some puzzles) could become unwinnable or even crash the game due to the clock running too fast. There were even small third-party apps like "cpukiller" designed solely for reducing the # of clock cycles available to a PC game (something which modern emulators like DOSBox provide as a standard feature for accurate emulation).
As one of the less egregious examples, in Quest for Glory 1, if you played a Fighter then you could (optionally) duel the weaponsmaster at the castle, but he played at cpu clock speed where you were synced to real time speed, making him impossible to defeat on faster computers.
Brought to you by the same programmer as the Leisure Suit Larry weightlifting scene.
@2:37 "Take a fish to the face!" I kinda feel sorry for the cat, but then I also feel sorry for the rat...such a dilemma!
Using the fish on the cat simply never occurred to me. It's interesting that they have separate animations for the fish as well as the impossible-in-normal-play leg o' lamb.
I'm guessing the lamb leg was somehow obtainable beforehand at some point in the game's development, and then changed without being removed. I remember reading somewhere that there was going to be a puzzle to find the key to the inn's kitchen, which is why it says the stupid line "Finding the kitchen door locked, Graham unlocks it before going outside."
In that case the lamb leg would be obtainable, but not the rope, since you need to be hit on the head, tied up, and then rescued by the rat to get that particular item.
Seeing King Graham getting decked by a bear punching him in the face is still amazing 😂
Sir Graham uses Ye Olde Slap a Cat with a Large Trout technique! It's super effective! (but now you're soft locked)😱🐻😼
grab ye olde flask
@@luzroja29AKApeyo You can't get ye olde flask. Ye get slapped with a large trout instead.🐟
@@doppleganger4827 i cant get it because it doesnt exist in the game or what?
KQ5 is a medieval fantasy version of Groundhog Day where King Graham does a specific and obscure series of tasks and moves, perfected over personal decades of trial-and-error and countless gruesome deaths, in order to save his kingdom.
"Rats are disease-carrying vermin responsible for plagues and tragedy in our world... but on my 2314th day I chucked a boot at a cat chasing one and somehow that timeline was the one."
For me, nothing comes close to finding out decades later that I had only played about half of Castlevania: Symphony of the Night because the game's total completion is actually measured as 200% and I didn't know that the awful ending that you get by beating Richter normally is only one of several.
Interesting how V was the worst and VI was the best.
I knew nothing of the alternatives.
My only defense for Sierra is that MAYBE they thought that most people would spend time trying to save the rat, since Graham has befriended animals in the past. Expanding the window of opportunity may have been the solution, but dead ends aren't fun either way and goes back to that old school point 'n click logic they would dish out to extend gameplay life (and increase hint book buys and hint line calls😈).
I mean it's not THAT obscure if you were playing any other Sierra point and click at the time. If you saw something happen in a game back then it wasn't for flavour, you HAD to do something. They didn't spend all that time animating it for nothing. It might not seem obvious NOW that animations are super easy to make and design, but back then? People knew it was there for a reason. The games make it really obvious that animations are hints, They did the same thing in Police Quest and Space Quest constantly.
I think the issue with this puzzle in particular though is the short time window you get to figure it out and then act on it, given that you only get one shot at it. Most of the other timed puzzles tend to give you a larger time window and/or are more clearly signposted.
I mean, there ARE worse Sierra puzzles than this, but that doesn't really absolve this so much as it demonstrates how BS some of them got.
There were TONS of cryptic "puzzles" in the KQ series. KQ3 was pretty rough with the Cat Cookie, but that's just how it was with KQ1-7 (as far as I know).
You can at least exclude KQ7 from the list, it adopted the more-modern "no dead ends" design philosophy: Sure, there were still plenty of things that would kill you, but (a) you were allowed to quickly undo the mistake _without_ needing to manually keep a prior save, and (b) you were allowed to leave the puzzle and explore elsewhere until you found whatever you needed.
One of the largest examples in KQ6 was the Minotaur's labyrinth. You needed (I think it was) four in-game items to survive it (plus clues in the printed manual). If you didn't have them all, then (at the point where you'd be thrown in) the game would give you a cryptic hint about being not ready, after which there was no way to know when you actually _were_ ready. (Back in the day, we were stumped for a while at needing the brick.)
@@Stratelier You know, reading a lot of the comments here make me think about how "modern" game design would handle an old King's Quest. All of its "dead-long-before-you-know-it" traps are so much a part of these games' identity that I'd like to keep at least some, if not most of them. But if you somehow tell the player that they've screwed themselves out of a late-game situation, they'll know right away that they need to reload, and also, how did *you* know that, narrator?!
I don't recall those cryptic hints from the KQ6 labyrinth, but it kind of sounds like the answer. Especially if they can make the text just the slightest bit different than normal, or by using a vague hint that's hidden in a phrase.
Anyone remember the similar puzzles in Infocom's The Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy?
Buy a cheese sandwich! (You don't have money, but you don't need it. Also, there's no cheese sandwich in the original story.)
Feed the cheese sandwich to a hungry dog!
Then the Earth gets blown up, you do a thousand things, and toward the end of the game, you need to have done it to survive.
Well, it could have been worse. Imagine if a random number is generated at the start of the game; 50% of the time you need to save the rat so it helps you later on. The other 50% of the time you need to throw the boot at the rat to stun it so the cat gets a meal, and then the cat rescues you out of gratitude later on. With no indication which state you're in.
I remember as a kid playing this damn cat locking me out of being able to continue and having no idea I had done anything wrong!
That game was full of if you didn't do X earlier you're doomed later! But man I did not know these strange facts
Also: why does the Bear PUNCH Graham out with a right hook?
You gotta respect Roberta Williams for creating the some of the most sadistic puzzles in gaming
At least the following 2 were better
We used to play the NES version of King's Quest V a lot, and could never actually make any real progress because of how esoteric the solutions are.
I don't think we ever saved that damn rat.
god your videos are edited so well. Always get excited when I see an update from you
Wasn't this also the game that made you squeeze some honey on a random bit of forest floor, sprinkle on some emeralds, and lie in wait to catch a leprechaun or something?
Yes, THANK YOU. Everyone always complains about the cat and the boot, but the honey-and-gemstones-on-the-ground puzzle doesn't even give you a clue that you need to do anything there. Okay, there's some glowy eyes in the background, but why on earth would anyone think they belong to an elf that likes to steal gemstones?? Okay, rant over.
@@MarisaReset Also, he claims he never takes anything without giving something in return, yet as soon as he takes one of those emeralds, he immediately bolts. And if you drop all 3 emeralds without using the honey, he never comes back again, and you're the one who's stuck.
I love that bear punch.
So much.
ngl I'd be ok if all KQ related media just threw that in just because
Yes. These "puzzles-
I actually don't think the cat-boot puzzle is as bad as the innkeeper's cellar. As far as I know the cat-boot only happens when you can do something about it, and you're clearly meant to do SOMEthing. In the cellar you have to intentionally get captured, in a manner that previously killed you and allowed you no ability to interact or do anything.
Graham look out! A poiiiisonous snake!
Wow, I grew up with King's Quest 5. I knew this puzzle was bad, but I didn't know just how many way it was bad. Thanks!
Just hanging out on the ol' cat strip with my adventure game buds. Great little video thank you! 1,000% go support all of those albums, King's chill is ❤❤
I feel like your nostalgic ribbing at these games is actually helping ruin their legacy, and make people hate them. Even if it’s not that you’re intent
I feel so vindicated for not ever playing King's Quest
I have no idea how i was able to beat this game as a kid
In the NES version of the game, it gives you unlimited tries (IE - if you don't toss the boot at the cat, you can come back to the screen and do it again) Nintendo thought it was too cruel of a puzzle as it was originally and made them change it for the NES port.
The King's Quest V NES port was done by Novotrade, and was published by Konami. Nintendo wasn't involved except licensing the final product.
P&C games were designed this way. They wanted you to get frustrated and either buy the solution guide or call the 900 hint line. It's just like NES and arcade games getting harder the longer you play them to increase playtime. If a game were completable in a single sitting they wouldn't be fun and people wouldn't buy them.
Roberta Williams sued the creator of Old Man Murray over making fun of her. There was a settlement that included shuttering the website 'Portal of Evil' which was also ran by the OMM creator.
Williams wasn't satisfied and attempted to get the Wikipedia entry from OMM redacted for 'not being relevant enough'. Apparently for a time you could see her comments on the matter in the entry's discussion where she was openly conspiring with another user that had been made fun of. These people had apparently ganged up like a bunch of batman rogues to be petty af.
Roberta is by all accounts a terrible human being. Even the Dolomite actor was repulsed by her behavior after working with her on a project. I'm guessing having *Daryl Gates* do VO work for a police game was also a great big red flag.
@@invisi-bullexploration2374 Roberta Williams didn't design Police Quest.
This is not just bad game design.
This is broken and unforgivable design that prevents anyone from finishing the game they bought without resorting to hint books, hint lines or this sort of thing.
In fact, I never knew a single person who finished that game on their own. Everyone I knew eventually learned the solution through word of mouth, magazines, etc.
The thing is: was the decision to include something as egregious in the game on purpose?
Maybe this is just an example of my brain working differently than most, but to me, this is nowhere near the worst puzzle in the game. There's a cat chasing a rat. Of course you're supposed to save the rat. Throwing the boot was literally my first thought. Yes, it's annoying that the game gives you so little time, but that's why you save early and often. It's how you're supposed to escape the dark forest that makes me want to steal Roberta Williams's lunch money.
I did not know you could chuck the fish at the cat and make the game unwinnable. That makes it even more cruel to the player. I also didn't know you could get points using the stick if you clicked directly on the cat.
You can also give the gold coin, needle, or heart to the wrong people; which will also make the game unwinnable. As well as giving the eagle the custard pie instead of the leg of lamb.
Take a fish to the face!! 🐟🤪
THE QUEST OF KINGS!
So if you miss it you stay tied up forever? That's ridiculous...
When you think about it for more than two seconds, the King's Quest games really weren't that great. Day of the Tentacle completely blew every King's Quest game out of the water, and there were no puzzles in that game where you needed to accomplish something unreasonably fast. And the one thing you had to do quickly could be redone if you screwed it up.
Sam and Max also accomplishes this to great effect.
Yeah. As much as I aesthetically prefer Sierra's adventure game UI over Lucas's, in retrospect their overall design philosophy of "no softlocks/dead-ends" is definitely superior.
@@Stratelier Not only that, but it isn't like you don't have to think to solve puzzles in Lucas games. The Sam and Max games in particular often require alot of thinking outside the box to get past situations. And that is where point and click games are at their strongest. It isn't necessary to have softlocks or dead ends in order to carry a good point and click game.
Mmm moon logic
How the heck did I ever complete this game?
You bought old games to act as your own personal ARGs
I just bought the hint book and used that!
Based on this ONE video, you earned my sub
It's even worse in the NES version.
I had to buy a cheat book to beat this game.........
*R̶̮̞̞̜̙̅͗̈͋̑́̊̆̂͐̎́̚̚͜͝ę̴̞̤̠̬͔͙̤̖̪̺͓̠͕̱̲͎̐̎ǫ̷̹͍̮̟̘͗̑̿̌̆̍͘w̶͉̣͕̩̬̳͓̮̘͍͚̰̞̦̬͎̓*
Does this one have any remakes? It seems pretty easy to fix these. Just have the cat chase the mouse away, or get another mouse, and come back.
And, of course, block getting to the part where the trap is if you don't have the item you need.
The easiest fix would be for the rat to escape the cat (say into a mousehole under the building's foundation), and thereafter make it a recurring event (a better clue that this is an actual puzzle to be solved).
@@Stratelier Or it could be a different rat each time. Just as long as it repeats.
But the part I'm not sure about would be if you wind up in that room and didn't get the rat. Modern game design, they would make it impossible to get in there without the rat.
@@ZipplyZane Agreed. As the video mentioned, this specific puzzle doesn't trigger until after you've obtained _some_ means to solve it, indicating the developers gave it some planning at all.
The problem is that this is only one of many MANY "puzzles" that you would discover softlocked you until hours later.
It's like they went out of their way to screw over the player whenever possible. the game is literally designed around it.
Make more videos. I won't tell you again.
Did anyone ever solve this legitimately, or were you expected to buy some hint book or call a hint line?
I knew you could swap the boot and the stick (although not that clicking the stick ON the cat still gives you points), but fuuuuuuck, it also has "TAKE A FISH TO THE FACE" programmed in? Does the cat APPEAR if you have the fish and not the boot/stick? Cause you'd be well and truly fucked if so.
Naw, the cat only appears after you have either the stick or the boot.
TAKE A FISH TO THE FACE!
I will die on the hill that the Yeti Pie solution is worse.
On principle.
Can I nominate that one 'puzzle' in Full Throttle where you have to click on a specific pixel on a specific wall just before the end to find a secret entrance. It didn't work on my pc at all, maybe an issue with my mouse or monitor but didn't work. I remember as a kid painstakingly clicking each possible pixel on the screen and still no joy. I eventually found a guide so knew the exact spot... and it still didn't work. No clue to this day what that was about, and why it worked for others and not for me.
Playing the Harp for the Wolves much?
@@gamerk316 Could you eat the harp on your way up the mountain?
I rest my case.
@@Null_Experis I forget, but ... did climbing the mountain require you to eat something (else) for food?
@@stryke-jn3kvThe “kick the wall” puzzle in Full Throttle *still* makes no sense to me. I’ve beaten the game dozens of times over the years, you’d think the right spot would be programmed into my muscle memory, and yet coming up against that part when playing through the Vita version a couple of weeks ago was still a tortuous trial-and-error situation just like the first time my 16 year old self encountered it. And all the “she was a kid, so you have to account for the height” and “give it a five count after the steam gaskets go off”s in the world don’t help.
Absolute shit tier game design right there
00:25 Ummm, you can just trigger this again.
You know that Right?
No, actually. You only get one shot at it.
@@oneshorteye_extras I must have had a different version. It wouldn't trigger all the time but if I went back and forth it would eventually trigger again.
Bad puzzle
I know that I would never have harmed a cat on purpose, even in a video game, so I am really glad to never have played this game. I'd never be able to finish it.
KQ3 is even worse in that regard, as you can kick the cat and you have to grab him and pluck some hair from him to use as a spell ingredient. (Try doing either of those things in the AGD remake, while Manannan is home, and he'll kill you for it.) But to be fair, neither of those cats are very friendly to begin with. And the series isn't very generous in regards to dogs either, as the only one you can pet is the one at the shop in KQ3.