The answer from Dr. Robyn Walsh to the question @1:02:30 was very thought provoking and indeed a clincher supporting this Book Talk's hour-long thesis, while also serving as a great cliff-hanger to look further into. Bringing the classics back into the religious zeitgeist will hopefully spur another desperately needed renaissance and enlightenment for these wearied modern times -- which can be attributed, at least in part, to the effects of German Romanticism/realism/materialism/nationalism (whatever you may call it) on Western academic religious studies' approach to religious texts. Dr. Walsh's new book does indeed appear to have ground breaking potential and hopefully spurs a great deal of peer review and also significant popular consideration. More details are definitely needed. Thanks for this talk, much appreciated!
There was no renaissance. Thats a myth. Point to a time when the Catholic church wasn't spending its conned money on art. Ill help. There wasn't a time.
@@joshportie that's a rather narrow qualifying question/issue, and not relevant to historical scholarship of the period referred to as the Renaissance
@letsomethingshine - We need historical studies of religious texts in the same way with the same criterion as historians study any other historical texts. Religion is a belief system that has no place in academia unless it is a research project.
I have been following Dr. Walsh and her work for a few years and always find her credible, logical and an excellent presenter. That was very educational and enjoyable. Thank you so much to everyone involved.
Oral tradition is for me absolutely fascinating. Caligula had two luxury boats which sank to the bottom of lake Nemi. And that was the end of them. Around the year 1500 renaissance scholars traveled to a small village next to the lake. They asked local peasants what was at the bottom of the lake. The local peasants told the scholars about the boats. So the oral tradition survived for over 1 thousand years.
@moesypittounikos - Your story is fascinating but has a few holes. The sunken ships have been found 18 meters deep in Lake Nemi. This is a depth where fishermen could find them all by themselves. Local fishermen had long been aware of the existence of the wrecks and had explored them and removed small artifacts, often using grappling hooks to pull up pieces, which they sold to tourists. In 1446, Cardinal Prospero Colonna and Leon Battista Alberti followed up on the stories regarding the remains and discovered them lying at a depth of 18.3 meters (60 ft), which at that time was too deep for effective salvage. They damaged the ships by using ropes with hooks to tear planks from them. So there is new mysterious old man telling a story generation after generation. You have simply fishers going after their trade. Divers in antiquity could reach up to 30 meters (the ships were at 18 meters) Underwater diving for commercial purposes may have begun in Ancient Greece, since both Plato and Homer mention the sponge as being used for bathing. The island of Kalymnos was the main center of diving for sponges. By using weights of as much as 15 kilograms (33 lb) to speed the descent, breath-holding divers would descend to depths up to 30 meters (98 ft) for as much as five minutes to collect sponges.[2] Sponges were not the only valuable harvest to be found on the sea floor; the harvesting of red coral was also quite popular. A variety of valuable shells or fish could be harvested in this way, creating a demand for divers to harvest the treasures of the sea, which could also include the sunken riches of other seafarers.
The fisherman story that becomes followers that leave family, and business to follow a guy in a wandering gang without any form of income. So what did they exist from? Have they been Hobos that ate what others worked for? It is a fictional story element to make the pun with fisher of men. Only people without any job, or family would follow a preacher around like a gang.
Well Peter was old money wealth, big time. He was actually just fishing off his mega-yacht and that got scaled down to fisherman in order to keep the story popular. I hope this helps.
Paul writes about meeting with the original disciples: Peter, John, etc. Peter writes about meeting Paul. And don’t forget 2nd century is from 100-200 AD, less than 100 years after the death of Jesus. This is monumental in the ancient world. He specifically says in the NT that he met with the immediate followers to make sure He was preaching the same message. Has she read straight through the NT?
@rwestbrook - You mean a fan fiction story in which Paul is the hero who claims to connect a nobody to someone who might have met the Jesus character for a year. The author made it up is the obvious answer. You understand that in Harry Potter telling us about Harry Potter means that we have still a fictional story. Cicero wrote several books and a lot of letters which are from him in his lifetime. We have books from Ceasar in which he describes the Gallic Wars and his role in them. We have Josephus who writes about the Jewish War in which he took part. In comparison to the fan fiction stories in koine greek about a dead arameic speaking preacher that were written by unknown authors at an unknown time. We have 25 contradicting gospels and only four made it into the story collection. So it is monumental bad what fan fiction we have here.
Flavius Josephus was the Apostle Paul. While walking, what did Mommy tomato and Daddy tomato say to baby tomato? "Catch Up'. Brilliant scholars but your timeline is off by 40 years.
The New Testament is a Legal Document which indicates that the Roman dominions had a New owner Jesus-Christ and contains some instructions on applicable Law in that New Jurisdiction: this is called ratification of the Law of Moses. Paul was just saying ratifying the Law of Moses could be done in spirit and not in a letter. In other words the Romans didn't have to follow Moses sentencing guidelines in case of violations. Paul started out by saying that the purpose of the Law was not to purify but to govern as God punishes sins while magistrates punishes crimes... too much to unpack from that misunderstood document. The Moralization of the Roman Dry Law.
The last Supper is a Passover meal used as a way to explained how Jesus death will become a new Exodus for Israel that’s the way the gospels colors the meaning of the bread and wine which are both symbols of divine provision and Covenant in the scriptures. The Satyricon parallel is superficial at best for any point of resemblance you can deduct 10 dissimilarities. The rooster thing is not even worth commenting that’s a figure of speech to describe the time of day. If we going to parallel literature in that fashion why not say the Satyricon is copying the gospels? I mean to me it sounds just as ridiculous but since we want to theorize literary connections doesn’t the stream run both ways? I guess that would not sell books 🤔🤔🤔
Fan fiction was produced at an unknown time and place by nameless authors in Koine Greek about a dead Aramaic-speaking preacher. We have a huge gap as no copies exist that reach before 150-200 CE- So we have absolutely no evidence of what was written altered lost and made up before this time. It gets even worse as we have at least 25 gospels, but only 4 made it into the story collection. It gets even worse none of what we have Today and claim as the New Testament is similar to the earliest surviving collection from the 4th century. It gets even worse translations Today resemble not the oldest we have they are made up of various different copies that biased fallible humans put together.
The answer from Dr. Robyn Walsh to the question @1:02:30 was very thought provoking and indeed a clincher supporting this Book Talk's hour-long thesis, while also serving as a great cliff-hanger to look further into. Bringing the classics back into the religious zeitgeist will hopefully spur another desperately needed renaissance and enlightenment for these wearied modern times -- which can be attributed, at least in part, to the effects of German Romanticism/realism/materialism/nationalism (whatever you may call it) on Western academic religious studies' approach to religious texts. Dr. Walsh's new book does indeed appear to have ground breaking potential and hopefully spurs a great deal of peer review and also significant popular consideration. More details are definitely needed. Thanks for this talk, much appreciated!
There was no renaissance. Thats a myth. Point to a time when the Catholic church wasn't spending its conned money on art. Ill help. There wasn't a time.
@@joshportie that's a rather narrow qualifying question/issue, and not relevant to historical scholarship of the period referred to as the Renaissance
@letsomethingshine - We need historical studies of religious texts in the same way with the same criterion as historians study any other historical texts. Religion is a belief system that has no place in academia unless it is a research project.
I have been following Dr. Walsh and her work for a few years and always find her credible, logical and an excellent presenter. That was very educational and enjoyable. Thank you so much to everyone involved.
Well said, Robyn.
Awesome content and on my birthday 😀🎉
Happy belated!
Fascinating and persuasive.
I greatly admire Robyn Walsh, for her expositional style, and her aesthetic beauty as a woman who I would even enjoy arguing with.
Oral tradition is for me absolutely fascinating. Caligula had two luxury boats which sank to the bottom of lake Nemi. And that was the end of them. Around the year 1500 renaissance scholars traveled to a small village next to the lake. They asked local peasants what was at the bottom of the lake. The local peasants told the scholars about the boats. So the oral tradition survived for over 1 thousand years.
@moesypittounikos - Your story is fascinating but has a few holes. The sunken ships have been found 18 meters deep in Lake Nemi. This is a depth where fishermen could find them all by themselves. Local fishermen had long been aware of the existence of the wrecks and had explored them and removed small artifacts, often using grappling hooks to pull up pieces, which they sold to tourists. In 1446, Cardinal Prospero Colonna and Leon Battista Alberti followed up on the stories regarding the remains and discovered them lying at a depth of 18.3 meters (60 ft), which at that time was too deep for effective salvage. They damaged the ships by using ropes with hooks to tear planks from them.
So there is new mysterious old man telling a story generation after generation. You have simply fishers going after their trade.
Divers in antiquity could reach up to 30 meters (the ships were at 18 meters) Underwater diving for commercial purposes may have begun in Ancient Greece, since both Plato and Homer mention the sponge as being used for bathing. The island of Kalymnos was the main center of diving for sponges. By using weights of as much as 15 kilograms (33 lb) to speed the descent, breath-holding divers would descend to depths up to 30 meters (98 ft) for as much as five minutes to collect sponges.[2] Sponges were not the only valuable harvest to be found on the sea floor; the harvesting of red coral was also quite popular. A variety of valuable shells or fish could be harvested in this way, creating a demand for divers to harvest the treasures of the sea, which could also include the sunken riches of other seafarers.
The fisherman story that becomes followers that leave family, and business to follow a guy in a wandering gang without any form of income. So what did they exist from? Have they been Hobos that ate what others worked for? It is a fictional story element to make the pun with fisher of men. Only people without any job, or family would follow a preacher around like a gang.
Well Peter was old money wealth, big time. He was actually just fishing off his mega-yacht and that got scaled down to fisherman in order to keep the story popular. I hope this helps.
Paul writes about meeting with the original disciples: Peter, John, etc. Peter writes about meeting Paul. And don’t forget 2nd century is from 100-200 AD, less than 100 years after the death of Jesus. This is monumental in the ancient world. He specifically says in the NT that he met with the immediate followers to make sure He was preaching the same message. Has she read straight through the NT?
@rwestbrook - You mean a fan fiction story in which Paul is the hero who claims to connect a nobody to someone who might have met the Jesus character for a year. The author made it up is the obvious answer. You understand that in Harry Potter telling us about Harry Potter means that we have still a fictional story.
Cicero wrote several books and a lot of letters which are from him in his lifetime. We have books from Ceasar in which he describes the Gallic Wars and his role in them. We have Josephus who writes about the Jewish War in which he took part. In comparison to the fan fiction stories in koine greek about a dead arameic speaking preacher that were written by unknown authors at an unknown time. We have 25 contradicting gospels and only four made it into the story collection. So it is monumental bad what fan fiction we have here.
Enjoyed your death of Paul illustration.
Flavius Josephus was the Apostle Paul. While walking, what did Mommy tomato and Daddy tomato say to baby tomato? "Catch Up'. Brilliant scholars but your timeline is off by 40 years.
The New Testament is a Legal Document which indicates that the Roman dominions had a New owner Jesus-Christ and contains some instructions on applicable Law in that New Jurisdiction: this is called ratification of the Law of Moses.
Paul was just saying ratifying the Law of Moses could be done in spirit and not in a letter.
In other words the Romans didn't have to follow Moses sentencing guidelines in case of violations.
Paul started out by saying that the purpose of the Law was not to purify but to govern as God punishes sins while magistrates punishes crimes... too much to unpack from that misunderstood document.
The Moralization of the Roman Dry Law.
The last Supper is a Passover meal used as a way to explained how Jesus death will become a new Exodus for Israel that’s the way the gospels colors the meaning of the bread and wine which are both symbols of divine provision and Covenant in the scriptures. The Satyricon parallel is superficial at best for any point of resemblance you can deduct 10 dissimilarities. The rooster thing is not even worth commenting that’s a figure of speech to describe the time of day. If we going to parallel literature in that fashion why not say the Satyricon is copying the gospels? I mean to me it sounds just as ridiculous but since we want to theorize literary connections doesn’t the stream run both ways? I guess that would not sell books 🤔🤔🤔
Fan fiction was produced at an unknown time and place by nameless authors in Koine Greek about a dead Aramaic-speaking preacher. We have a huge gap as no copies exist that reach before 150-200 CE- So we have absolutely no evidence of what was written altered lost and made up before this time. It gets even worse as we have at least 25 gospels, but only 4 made it into the story collection. It gets even worse none of what we have Today and claim as the New Testament is similar to the earliest surviving collection from the 4th century. It gets even worse translations Today resemble not the oldest we have they are made up of various different copies that biased fallible humans put together.
“Who was Jesus: A Conspiracy in Jerusalem “,Kamal Salibi,1988. Y’all way late to the party.
Ah Jesuit brainwashing. Good job. Casuistry is real with this one. Designed to dupe those who don't know history.
@@joshportie You have debunked Salibi?
Well said, Robyn.