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How do we own machine guns in the UK? The answer.
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- Опубликовано: 7 авг 2024
- It surprises people that it is possible for a civilian organisation to own and fire fully automatic machine guns in the UK. They are prohibited weapons but it is possible to get authorisation to possess them. In this video, Rich explains a little more about how that works.
NOTE: We are not a political organisation and do not lobby either way regarding gun control so please do not ask our opinion of whether the rules are ‘good’ or ‘bad.’ They allow us to do what we do.
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I'm glad you qualified and persevered with the process because you do a good job explaining not only the weapons but how they were used.
Thank you. Understanding the technical specs of a weapon is often very different (and sometimes irrelevant) to how they were used in practice. We’ve much more coming on that very soon!
I had no idea any of this existed. Great to see a bit of the firearm culture that does exist in the UK. Almost all of the guns here in the States I've purchased have primarily been out of admiration for their historical value. The shows, the movies, the documentaries, and the books are all fascinating, but there's a special kind of appreciation for history when you can own and operate a piece of it. Everyone should get the chance to experience that side of it. 🇺🇸🇬🇧
Thanks for sharing your thoughts. The objects are just one part of history but they provide great opportunities for interpretation and understanding. We write and publish a lot based on them.
Thankyou for this fascinating look into legal machinegun ownership in the UK .As an American we are a little spoiled . Acquiring fully automatic weapons in the states is not very difficult its somewhat time consuming but most of all very expensive, the number of legal registered machineguns in the hands of collectors number well into the hundreds of thousands and this inventory is constantly moving. Thanks Again for this informative post.
Glad you enjoyed the video and found it informative. The balance of supply and demand does cause the prices to go high which is thankfully not a problem in the UK where demand is low and supply is not limited in the same way. Here’s a video on one of the low-cost items we bought recently: A new Vickers machine gun in the collection - first look at the same time as Rich!
ruclips.net/video/pb8MbOdxxYs/видео.html
Great explanation much better than an explanation I tried to give to an American the way a group in the UK could have Section 5 weapons.
He kept telling me I was wrong as the weapons were prohibited so no one could own them.
Thanks Neil. Glad you liked it. Hopefully it will be a helpful link to send to people when they ask.
Great video Rich, really well laid out and explained.
Thanks Matt! Dispelling a few myths hopefully.
I am so glad that there are people like yourselves who go to the trouble of preserving our past. It's so important that you are allowed to carry on with what you do as the history of weapons and war is a vital part of what our children are taught so as hopefully it will never happen again. Also it's so important that these weapons are preserved for all of us to see how they work and the magnificent engineering that went into them. Thank you and all of your team for the opportunity to be able to see these wonderful works of art in full operation. I know as a gun owner of the hoops you have to jump through to be able to have these weapons so you have my full respect for what you and your team do. Keep up the great work. All the best to you and your team. I hope 👍👍👍👍
Thank you Peter. We had a visit yesterday with a mix of people interested in the guns themselves but also the social and industrial heritage that they're so important in helping tell the story of.
@@vickersmg your most welcome.
There are a lot of RUclips channels from the U.S. that have a very different perspective on firearms, their availability and their use. Some are intelligent and reasoned. Some, less so. It’s good to see your excellent presentation from a British legal standpoint and in my opinion, your organisation’s healthy relationship with weapons.
Thanks for the comment, and for keeping it a great balanced perspective. One of our drivers is professionalisation of what we do as well so it's appreciated when that's seen.
As a gun owner myself, it also stuns me sometimes when the average Joe does not realise they too can own guns in the UK. I have come across a fair few that firmly believe that owning a gun in the UK is illegal.....then I have to explain why they are wrong - or more to the point that they have been misinformed...
We have some great conversations about this sort of thing, especially when people come and visit. Many firearms owners come a little perplexed too as it’s a truly niche area.
Absolutely fantastic! Never even knew that your organisation existed! I've not had the pleasure of firing a fully automatic firearm since I left the Service of Her Majesty The Queen in 1998, and never had the experience of a Vickers! Hope that you continue to have the privilege of educating people about this wonderful historic weapon in the condition (Live firing) that it should be in for many years to come!!
Thank you very much. We're glad you think it's a worthwhile cause. Do come and visit us if you get the opportunity. vickersmg.blog/visits/
Great video. I didn't know about this association and I'm very pleased to see it exist. This is good content and bound to grow the brand. I'm a UK shooter and firearms owner, and as others have pointed out, it's remarkable how little people know about firearms in this country.
Thanks Todd. If you'd like to visit, we're in Swindon, Wiltshire, and hold quite a few open days a year where we will do blank firing demonstrations of the Vickers too.
vickersmg.blog/visits/
I find it interesting to compare firearm laws on the UK compared to the US. On one hand, owning guns is much more difficult but in other ways (specifically suppressors) it is much easier.
There are many differences in most areas. We explored some of them in a podcast with High Caliber History a couple of years ago which might be worth a listen: open.spotify.com/episode/0pqvCriAvQkMoB8WcxzMXd?si=tOGLkWstTwi-owM67PV1Ag
Hopefully our video has made this a bit clearer. There are a lot of comments on the subject that we have not been able to share as the politics of gun ownership is so contentious that many are inappropriate.
Love the Bren. having used the GPMG, it is a weapon I have often thought it would be good to fire. Of the older weapons, I have fired the Thompson and M1 Garand, but I still think the Bren looks the part and was certainly, a very effective weapon. Hats off to the Germans as well for creating the MG34, 42 and many others.
If you want to see some videos on the MG42 versus the Bren and much more then head over and support our crowdfunder. vickersmg.blog/product/project-spandau/
Very interesting, I used the 7.62mm 'Bren' in the TA back in the early 80s, which could only be fired full-auto and only on certain ranges which were cleared for it, one of which was the range at Whitburn, which faced out to sea. Despite the red flags and the sound of gunfire, we regularly had to ceasefire because some numpty with a dog would think it OK to walk calmly across the end of the range. We never got to fire the SMG full auto, I don't think we had any ranges in the area cleared for that nasty little thing - you had to keep them inside your sleeping bag when you slept, and the magazine well was not a nice thing to roll-over onto, the SLR was a much better bet.
You didn't miss much not getting to fire the SMG.
Thankfully we don't have to sleep with the Vickers - it would need a doss bag of it's own! We'll have some SMG firing this week so will be sharing that soon. Head over to www.patreon.com/vickersmg and subscribe to support us if you can.
We'll let you know what we think after the weekend!
Glad to see you keeping history alive. I'm viewing to see the weapons my father, uncles and grandfather used when they served.
I have a picture my father took on Stirling Lines in Libya in the 1940's and my Uncles dog tags that he wore in WW2 with the 51st Highland Division at St Valerie , from which he managed to escape but was taken POW in the desert campaign.
Glad to see how difficult it is to own and operate these.
Some interesting family history! Thanks for watching and glad you liked it.
I only fired the vickers once as a young cadet many years ago, but have many happy memories of range days with the Bren, both the .303 and 7.62 versions.
We haven’t had both calibre Brens out at the same time yet - something we’ll have to rectify soon!
Not often I see professionals use guns, but you showcased it perfectly and explained how and why they were prohibited.
Great job lads! 👏👏
Thank you. Very much appreciated. Please do head over and support what we do on www.patreon.com/VickersMG if you can.
Great explanation and a very informative video around S5 firearms. Thank you for what you do.
Thank you. Glad you think so. Please do head over to www.patreon.com/VickersMG and support us if you can.
Very informative. Even in countries with very strict gun laws, there are always means for people to have guns. You just have to jump through the right hoops.
Well we’re in a position to hopefully continue to justify what we do and share more of this military history.
Thanks very much! It looks like you are doing an amazing job.
Thank you Derek. Please do head over and support us at www.patreon.com/VickersMG or to our shop and buy something so we can keep doing what we do.
Great educational video and well done for having both preservation and education. A definite on my list of places to visit.
Thank you Simon. Very much appreciated. We’re always adding more dates to our visits calendar. vickersmg.blog/visits/
Nice. I remember using the LMG (Bren) in the RAF in the 1980's, I used one dated 1942, it had been recalibered from .303 to 7.62.
Yes, the British didn’t make any new 7.62 guns, whereas the Indians did and we have a 1969 made gun in the collection.
The first few moments of this clip were really cool. It was like watching British soldiers in basic training during WWII.
Well we have plans to recreate those training manuals, as we did for the rangetaker training series.
for film work companies are moving away from real firearms in light of the risk to the person they are pointed at. they are using soft air guns. they look and feel like the real thing. and they can fire on full auto, including assault rifles and sub machine guns. fantastic what you guys are doing
Thanks Paul. Yes, we're aware that there are some active decisions being made to reduce risk on set. It will be interesting to see how that industry reacts to it and adapts to the different requirements.
This is one of the most informative and realistic breakdowns on section 5 gun owners, thanks!
Glad you think so. It can only explain what we do as there are many different reasons but it’s an insight at least.
Nice, I want to check out one of your events. I've been shooting in England since 1990 👍
Thanks. We’ve a few visits in the diary. Not all are available to book yet but will be soon. vickersmg.blog/visits/
I used to work in munitions and you'd be surprised at the number of employees who had never fired a single round despite turning out millions of the damn things! I had worked there 20 years before I had the opportunity. The most memorable time was a day visit to the Royal Armouries Pattern Room at Nottingham which holds thousands of weapons, historic through to present day. I don't think its open to the general public though.
The Pattern Room is now part of the National Firearms Centre held with the Royal Armouries in Leeds. Not open to the public but we work with them on many things and provided the automatic firing demonstration for their historical firearms weekend in April (which is in some of the clips in this video).
Awesome video, and great work that you do.
Thank you very much! It genuinely is hard work to keep these things going, and generating the income that makes it survive.
I'll have to find out when you're next at Bisley, that's some amazing fire power. Keep up the good work
Nothing planned at the moment but stay tuned to our social media and subscribe to our newsletter - eepurl.com/imlBQQ. Finance is the big issue for this as we're still paying off the loan for last year's event. Please support us by joining our RUclips members or Patreon at www.patreon.com/vickersmg.
Very well explained on the firearm laws in the UK. I always assume that in the UK only certain and strict firearms were allowed for the public. I did not know a semi automatic pistol could be classified as a section 5. Overall though, very interesting and thoroughly explained. Good stuff.
Glad you found it interesting and useful. Some pistols can be collected using section 7 exemptions for individuals but that’s not something we need.
I would love to see a video on how you go about sourcing these weapons!
It’s a case of catching what comes up at auction or within the limited network of those within the UK as well as import or manufacture.
An absolutely _brilliant_ explanation about how you can legally demonstrate an arcane yet historically important aspect of 20th century military history.
As a former NRA-ILA employee who had to study foreign firearms laws as part of my legislative job, I have always wondered how your group could own these strictly controlled firearms in a nation with very tough gun prohibitions. You provided all of those answers in this fine video.
If I ever get back to the UK I will try my best to make it to one of your association's demonstrations. I know you could use the dosh to purchase the vast quantity of .303 consumed by these vintage warhorses!
Thank you for your comment and a great perspective (I had to look up the ILA bit of the NRA to understand a bit more). Please do come along and see us if you ever get the chance. As you say, these vintage warhorses consume plenty! - Rich.
BRAVO AND WELL DONE.
Thank you. We're glad you think so.
Spot on and really clear explanation. I am an RFD as well as a personal FAC/SGC holder. It’s fantastic you are educating the public on firearms.
We have just got a new shooting club off the ground and hope we can use this to promote the shooting sports and educate people in the safe use of firearms.
Thanks Neil, if you’d ever like to bring the club down to have a look around, you’d be very welcome. If there are members with historic rifles as well, then we’ve got some safety material that might be of use.
brilliant video
Thank you. Glad you found it interesting and useful.
Even though I have never heard of you or seen your events this was an amazing video, and now I feel I should give you guys a look.
I am also looking into geting deactivated guns. How easy is it now compared to the early 2000s? As I know with the EU and other organisations it just seems very complicated to understand how to obtain them?
If you're in the UK and over 18 there's no restrictions on purchasing a deactivated former firearm that's to current spec., it just depends what you're lookimg for and how deep your pockets are. There are a number of specialist dealers who sell online and many who attend events and fairs in person, you can turn up with your credit card and walk away with a deac., simple as that really. Other than appearance, the current UK/EU deactivation specs. are more than adequate to ensure nothing that's been through a UK proof house would be readily reactivated so no form of licencing, registration or back round checks are necessary, because frankly, they're not necessary. Anything you buy should come with a current deac. cert, anything to an older spec. is now regarded a "deffectively deactivated" so can no longer legally be bought, sold, gifted or traded anyway as a private citizen, but there's still plenty about to current UK/EU spec. anyway and as long as you're sensible about transport, storage and ownership then you'll have no real problems.
Well we’re glad you’ve found us now. @jonprince3237 has explained the state of play quite well. Not much difference in terms of ownership from the early 2000s (for the over 18s anyway). Head over to www.VickersMG.org to find out more about us.
Have you seen any of the videos from the Soledar salt mines in Ukraine? They were recently captured by the Russians, it was a used as an arsenal. In part of the
footage they opened crates of brand new Vickers machine guns.
What they’re finding are Maxim M1910 machine guns we think. Many of the US Thompsons in the UK are from this mine and we’re sold by Ukraine before 2014. One of our members who runs @thearmourersbench did a video on it. ruclips.net/video/ApFT-pLcAXQ/видео.html
Like everything, you need to have the right paperwork. I've actually fired a Bren gun. Back in the day when the Army Cadets was more fun.
It's a lot of paperwork and a fair bit of bricks and mortar too! One of the Brens we have was certainly a Cadet Bren in a previous life.
Very interesting!
Thank you. We’re glad you think so.
Quite cool video 😊
Great! Glad you liked it.
Theres a wonderful song by Noel Coward that fits this video beautifully.
"Could you please oblige us with a Bren gun"
I’m sure if it was available an an open source soundtrack we’d be using it!
I would love to see a live firing demonstration of these, especially that multi demonstration. When do these occur and where can I buy the tickets?
The large shoot was a commemorative event and was free to visit (we received some donations to help cover an element of the cost but we’re still paying it back!). Generally follow our social media for details. We do have another, albeit smaller, shoot being planned at the moment.
Interesting video. As a French, I don’t know British rules about firearms. What is Section 5 ? Which weapons are concerned ?
In France we have 4 categories :
A : prohibited weapons (full-auto firing) ;
B : weapons subject to authorization (semi-auto firing) ;
C : weapons subject to declaration (repeating arms) ;
D : other-the-counter weapons (if over 18).
What about the UK ?
‘Section 5’ comprend les catégories A et B.
Would a Vickers-Berthier LMG be considered Vickers-related?
Absolutely! They are definitely something we’d like to acquire and fire in the future.
Vickers MG: Cutting down people in their prime since 1914. I saw one up close at a shotgun range, it was just sitting in the middle of the floor. I assume it was deactivated but you never know.
If you were able to get up close then most probably deactivated as there are plenty around. PS - it was introduced to the British Army in 1912! Brief intro video coming soon as we're aware we've never actually covered the basics on some of these.
Great
Glad you like it.
Great video! Really enjoyed learning about the system in place for firearms. What would be super awesome for a future video to invite Jonathan Ferguson, a weapons expert and Keeper of Firearms & Artillery at the Royal Armouries for a tour and a live fire test. It would be a fantastic team-up!
We know Jonathan and although we’ve not been on camera together, we have done work at the Royal Armouries - we did some of the firing demonstrations at their historical firearms weekend in April. It would be great to do more.
important question. is owning automatic weapons under "study and preservation" valid?
Well the object of the Association is to educate and inform so it has to have public benefit for us rather than just internal study.
Are they using the original calibre of ammunition as that much cost a fortune to fire or have they been modified to use something cheaper?
Yes, all in 303 and yes, they aren't cheap to run. Please do support us either at www.patreon.com/vickersmg or by clicking the join button here.
How do you acquire the various weapons? i imagine they arent easy to come by.
There are various sources, including other dealers and auctions, as well as donations from other collections or finds.
Are the brownings .33 & .50 approved aswell? Those fought along with the Vickers.
Greetings from 🇳🇱
Yes, absolutely part of the wider Vickers story as we can only understand something properly if we have it’s companions and competition.
Can you give me an idea what you are paying for bullets currently? Do you load your own?
I was looking at getting a SMLE a few years ago but there was only a couple of manufacturers still making bullets and I’m sure it was only FMJ, whereas I need soft points for deer and long range fox so sadly it just wasn’t a viable option. But for any full bore bullets in the U.K. they’re well over a quid a shot now.
So what do you guys do? Being an RFD can you source milsurplus?
I’d be really interested in your response!
Well we don't reload our own because of the volumes we use and the need to disburse some of the liability risk so we use factory ammunition which is usually PPU as we find S&B doesn't feed as well in the Vickers (and we keep the same across all the guns). We do thankfully get trade rates for the ammunition and for our non-directly funded firing we are able to reclaim the VAT so it becomes better value for us. We have used some surplus ammunition but the degradation can sometime be a concern for gas or recoil operated guns. As you know, it's all expensive stuff so please do head over to www.patreon.com/vickersmg and subscribe to support us and access more of our material. - Rich.
Would this kind of license cover firearms design and manufacture as well?
Yes it does. They are specific terms in the authorisation but they can be covered. We, for example, have the authorisation to manufacture prohibited parts as we need to.
Where do you source the working machine guns from?
There are several sources including specialist firearms auctions and other firearms dealers. This is a recent acquisition: A new Vickers machine gun in the collection - first look at the same time as Rich!
ruclips.net/video/pb8MbOdxxYs/видео.html
It's good to know that security and safety around these things is high, it should be and it needs to be.
Thank you for being a part of showing younger generations all their is to know about British History, both of War, and of Firearms, especially the well known Vickers.
I have a question I was hoping you could answer;
For every 1-Hour of Firing Time on one of these incredibly fascinating machines (Weapons) roughly how many hours do you then spend on cleaning, maintaining, repairing, and replacing parts/making parts for just a single vickers?
I can only assume that they require a lot of care and attention to stay in perfect operating condition.
I have always wondered how security is ensured when it comes to getting new parts manufactured or repaired or refurbished, because theirs got to be a high level of accountability beyond the normal standards to ensure that only those people who are allowed access to that content retain access to it.
Glad you liked the video and what we do. You mention younger generations and we're pleased to say that some of our work last year actually had Year 9 (13-14 years old) acting as number 2 on the gun feeding the ammunition belts. It was a great experience for all of us.
It's difficult to identify the maintenance time as whether we fire one round or one thousand rounds, it takes about 30 minutes to clean it. All of the parts are so old that we don't know their previous lives but we spend several days' worth of effort making replacement or spare parts for them each year, from a couple of our very talented members who are servants of the RFD. We have most of the equipment and skills in house to do it for one-off items but the multiples are where we sometimes need (regulated) external expertise.
Wonder when you'll be getting an 08/15? Since it was the opposition's WW1 equivalent. By the way, well done on everything you do. One day I hope to visit.
I’m sure that’s something we will acquire at some point as it’s a great example of the imbalance of ‘light’ machine guns and watercooling.
Do you always fire blanks? Also, if not where do you source .303? PPU? I'd imagine you'd need to purchase in bulk as .303 has become quite expensive now...annoyingly!
The majority of the fire in this video is of ball ammunition. Only the inside firing and the display in the middle of the city were blank ammunition. Here’s a video of the largest event we did last year, with 16,000 rounds of ammunition from PPU. Yes we buy at trade rates but it’s still very expensive. Please do support us if you can at www.patreon.com/VickersMG. ruclips.net/video/tdGOb0Jnzrs/видео.html
@@vickersmg 16,000rnds would feed my No5 for a good few years! 😀 Great video btw 👏🏻
@vickersmg do you all factory 303 ammunition ? No reloads I’m guessing
Yes, all factory 303, from Prvi via Kranks in the UK.
I'd love to have a firearms certificate! I would love to own a No 4 le en field 303.
There are plenty of opportunities to own and shoot those in the UK.
An M53. Why not an MG3 though, considering that those are being retired in favour of the MG5 and have the ability to shoot commonly-available modern ammunition?
Absolutely. Easily converted to 7.62mm NATO. Please head over and support the crowdfunder: vickersmg.blog/product/project-spandau/
Very interesting. I wish this was allowed in Australia. Aside from being able to own handguns, your laws seem better than ours.
There are lots of nuances and differences in the legal position on machine guns. It's likely that there are provisions deep in the legislation for this sort of thing in Australia but requires the strong justification as we do here.
Parks Canada operates a large number of historic weapons demonstration programs and sites. Their historic weapons range from swivel guns of the Portuguese whaling posts in 1400s Newfoundland and Labrador, through fur trade flintlocks, 1800s cartridge muskets, early 20th century "cowboy" rifles and handguns, and yes, WW1 and WW2 military small arms. As a national agency they must respond to workplace health and safety precautions. The non-period but scientifically proven hearing protection for all demonstrators are bright orange expanding foam ear plugs.
We consider our firearms ‘work equipment’ for our members so employ the same training and protections as if they were a piece of workshop machinery. Parks Canada sounds like an interesting organisation.
If you have a FAC can you come and handle/shoot genuine weapons with you?
I'm afraid it isn't as simple as that. Only the servants of our RFD are permitted to possess the firearms and to do so they must be members of the Association and undergo the training required. They're effectively employees at that point. We do welcome volunteers to come and support us and the best way of firstly engaging is to visit us on an open day. vickersmg.blog/visits/
can i ask where is this if its a thing i can visit
It is. We're located near Swindon, Wiltshire, UK. vickersmg.blog/visits/
Thank you
This is an excellent and informative video and benefits all viewers whether they be pro-gun, anti-gun, or just casual viewers.
Personally, I'm glad that the UK gun laws are VERY stringent; and that you have to have good reasons, good people and good security to possess such weapons. I do understand that for some vocations that guns are required, but it is also quite a relief to know that we have very stringent checks to ensure that the people who do have guns are licensed, trained, knowledgeable and store their guns safely to protect others from harm.
I do also appreciate that UK gun legislation must make the owning and operating of VickersMG much more difficult, but by doing things correctly as you are doing, people do benefit by learning about the history with regards to guns and conflict in a more enriching environment where people actually get to see the guns being used and how they really changed wars and conflicts after their inception.
It also helps by knowing that the people in VickerMG who handle the guns know what they are doing and that the guns are safe from people who would steal them and use them for nefarious purposes.
Thank you very much for commenting and we’re very glad you found the video interesting and informative. Section 5 is not a dark art or secretive like many would think. - Rich
i'd pay good money to try out some on the range
Many people would! If we could fund the Association like that, I don’t think we’d ever need to worry about fundraising but alas it’s not to be and we rely on the likes of www.patreon.com/VickersMG and our book sales.
The range at 2:46 looks like century range at bisely
Edit: correction it definitely is
Absolutely. 16 Vickers Machine Guns - Shooting Montage from Centenary Shoot
ruclips.net/video/tdGOb0Jnzrs/видео.html
cool
Glad you think so. Thanks for watching.
Is it at all possible to fire one of your weapons as a member of the public?
No. Only our appointed ‘servants’ that have been notified to the Police and have had our training are able to fire (unless you are a member of the armed forces, an RFD or similar doing it on duty).
Where do they come from? Old military supply, manufacturer stocks, foreign collectors, grandma´s attic?
All of the above! Auctions as well.
Are the firearm operators wearing hearing protection?
Yes they are. As a not-for-profit limited company, we are subject to health and safety law as much as firearms law and we treat our firearms as work equipment and protect against the risks of using that.
Royal armouries leeds?
Some of the footage towards the end of the vid is from our demonstration there in April.
About as Rare as Rocking Horse Crap! ..Are you allowed to add Foreign Machine Guns to your Collection or is it just British British Firearms you own?
Yes. Everything on the table in front of Rich is part of our firing collection. We are crowdfunding some of them so please help out with that if you can. vickersmg.blog/product/project-spandau/
Shouldn't those guys behind the maximums have Ukrainian uniforms 🤔 🤣
The UkAF using their Maxims are keeping the water-cooled era going.
@vickersmg so are you going to use IPhone video along side the B&W footage from WW1 🤔 So everyone this is video from yesterday showing the proper preparations for a maximum in a trench. I am kind of 1/2 joking.
Give it a few more years and everything will be a section 5 firearm
MG42 ❤.
If you want to see more on that, then head over and support our crowdfunder vickersmg.blog/product/project-spandau/
Why would you need one?
Our particular need is justified by educating and informing interested people about this aspect of military history and through the work we do.
Interesting video, I've heard of them, but was uncertain how section 5 licenses worked and for what purpose they'd be issued.
Glad you found it interesting and it answered some of your questions about them.