"Albert Blithe died in 1948". Those words could have easily been changed to the truth. Blithe died in 1967 on active duty in the ICU in Wiesbaden Hospital in Germany after taking part in the Battle of the Bulge Ceremony. He was a Master Sgt. & had earned a Silver Star & Bronze Star in Korea. SOMEONE in Easy Company should have said something.
The point of the matter though is that no one in Easy Company knew that. That fault lies squarely with Ambrose who is the "historian" and should have checked the information given to him.
Too late now. It's regularly seen on TV and on the dvd/blueray. They are not going to re-edit the series for future broadcast (far too much bother and cost) and they certainly aren't going to swap my blueray set for an updated version. To be honest, they've done hatchet jobs on numerous veterans in the series and the mud sticks. It's sickening.
@@Smoshy16 Maybe. But as an historian, when every single Joe you interview says that a guy died, that's pretty close to first source material, confirmed by first source material over, and over, and over again. I agree that it was on Ambrose to "do the research," but I still extend him a bit of grace there. His research was pretty clear that the man was dead.
@@matthewcuellar7879 I get it. But if you have a conversation with 20 different people, or 30, or 40, and all of them confirm what they all individually believe (or at least do not contradict what most of them believe), what are you going to accept as "fact?" Yeah, we can hold it against him that he didn't go to the Army archives and find the guy's record, but sheesh, they ALL believed he was dead. Just one of those idiosyncrasies of life and history. I still extend him some grace on that one. Every book on history gets some essential fact wrong.
At least when they slandered Speirs, he still looked like the coolest and most badass character in the series. There was also a lot of mystery and ambiguity to the war crimes scene, which may have captured the rumors going around the company at the time. The slander of Blithe, on the other hand, is completely unacceptable. They need to delete those scenes or put a bold footnote at the end telling the audience how badly they messed up. A hero of the Second World War and Korean War should not be portrayed as an unsuitable coward with their full name attached. This is nothing but stolen valor in a different form and remains a disgrace to this overall good series.
A clarification in the texts at the end, modifying the one that now exists about death in 1948, could be enough to make it clear that B. was a competent soldier who did his job.
He wasn't portrayed as an unsuitable coward. He was lost, lost himself, and was overwhelmed by the experience. By Winters leadership and humanity he found back and volunteered in the end for an dangerous action against a sniper and got shot in the throat. I don't really know, how that is a portrayal of a coward. Later in the series, you see one of the officers fall slowly apart, as he witnesses the horrors of war. Is he a coward too? It may seem, if you watch too many movies, that the portrayal of Blithe is odd or not appropriate. But it is a representation of something a lot of soldiers had to go through. Blithe found back, but many soldiers didn`t. Even today many don`t ever find back. And it was for all of them their first day in combat. So calling someone a coward, because he can`t cope, is far from reality. Even Clausewitz wrote, that you can be the best trained soldier and be the toughest guy, but if you really can cope with the horrors of war, you only find out, when you go in battle.
There is another perfectly reasonable explanation for Speirs not attending E Co. reunions. For the vast majority of the company's veterans, the war was a massively important experience in theirs lives, one which in many ways dominated and overshadowed the rest of their lives. Speirs, however, stayed on as a career soldier, fought in the Korean War (including yet another combat drop) and went on to many other assignments. In that context, the Easy Company experiences were just one set of many episodes in his life and likely did not hold for him the importance that it did for other company veterans. In fact, it was quite common for soldiers who later made careers in the military to not attend their WWII units' reunions.
Thats the same reason that I did not attend reunion events and the sunsetting from my first command. I served multiple commands throught the GWOT in 14 years. Many of the guys that attend those events only did one enlistment.
At a book signing and question and answer session for Don Malarkeys book at my local Borders Bookstore, Don Malarkey answered my question about the Oregon German POW incident. He didn't have a pause like his previous answers I asked and stated it right away that this did not happen. He even stated to the audience at the bookstore, and even his daughter had to calm him down a bit as he was getting a tiny bit emotional about it. He stated that he told Spielbergs assistant and anyone else that it didn't happen. He did acknowledge that the German POW was born and raised in Oregon. Don Malarkey lived in my hometown of South Salem, Oregon, and I used to see him every week at my local Safeways store wearing his 101 jacket and Band of Brothers hat 506 PIR. He was always buying milk, eggs bread, butter, and bacon. He drove a very clean and prestine Plymouth Voyager mini-van with a Band of Brothers sticker and veteran car plates. Even until the week he passed away, he was always happy to do interviews and talk about his experiences. His daughter kept his appointment and schedule, and you had to email or call her to set up a time. But my own experience talking to Sgt. Don Malarkey, he wasn't happy about the German POW incident and he protested adamantly with Spielberg and probably Tom Hanks. He had guts and integrity and wasn't afraid to speak his mind. And if Don Malarkey was adamant about it, I believe him.
Malarkey was also the one that told Stephen Ambrose (and later the B o B production staff) about the Niland Brothers, backed up by Sgt Warren H "Skip" Muck, who was also from the same town as the Niland family. This episode became the main basis for _Saving Private Ryan_ (along with the famous Sullivan Brothers..). Malarkey's book title is _Easy Company Soldier : The Legendary Battles of a Sergeant from World War II's "Band of Brothers"_ - it is co - authored by Donald G Malarkey, and Bob Welch [ ISBN 978-0-312-37849-3 ] (and his book is no doubt more... accurate then Stephen Ambrose has written).
Ed Shames said he told Ambrose several times that his book had a lot of errors, then gave up on him. Ambrose's response was to virtually write him out of history. I believe Shames was the first enlisted man to receive a commission in the entire battalion. Prior to Normandy he was the man responsible for creating the sand tables for the paratroopers on the big night. He was apparently exceptional at reading maps, as he said he was fascinated with maps and collected them since he was a child.
Ambrose's colonial American histories are also loaded with his big blindspots and even racist celebrations of "the conquest of the West," actually meaning the genocidal invasion. He always strikes me as a pompous ass.
My Uncle, Sgt. Louis B (Shorty) Flores, joined the regiment before D-Day and went through every action and battle up to the end of the war. He told me that the book was very accurate as a general depiction, and recommended it to me as a good way to see what he went through.
I seriously doubt the characters in the TV Series or Book were as bad or as good as they were made out to be but rather far more ‘human’. The reality is they were all brave men in extraordinary times doing the best they could.
When will writers learn that the actual events told as they actually happened would be the best of the best documentaries - it's real life with all of it's warts, full of human heroics and failures, including the dull inactive and boring moments, gritty and awful sometimes and most of all it's the truth and not a bunch of lies and concocted scenes from the writers beliefs of what could have happened to better sell the product. The writers are the real liars and conjurers of fanciful tales often led on by individuals who experienced the events but often had faulty and bedeviled memories of what actually happened.
@hacc220able War doesn't cooperate with writers. There is no real foreshadowing or plot armour. They start to create composite characters, or have to change people's names for legal reasons. The " death " of Pvt. Blithe would fulfill the death of innocence requirement for a standard war movie, and it would be difficult to get it removed.
I haven’t seen BOB. I served in the British Army and saw active service. I’m now 63. I live a very solitary life - my choice. I began to question my own vivid memories of being mortared as I was in a chopper taking off to be dropped off on patrol. Despite being vivid I simply began to doubt that the incident had happened as I ‘remembered’. It was a serious incident. Recently I had occasion to mention it on a RUclips channel dealing with the conflict. It was amazing because a variety of different sources both military ans civilian confirmed each detail that I’d begin to doubt. It was very moving for me. I didn’t mention that I had began to question my recall.
Well said, brother. I had a 17th year reunion with my old Iraq platoon a couple of years ago. "Only" 17 years had passed, but each and every one of us had very different recollections of the firefights we were in. Some were looking at it through the sights of an M4 or M16; some were seeing it from a HMMWV with an ear to a radio mic; some were seeing it from a broader point of view. We were all there, but each of us had a different experience of the same event - and there were only 16 of us! I hope you spend the rest of your days in peace. Glad to have cousins and allies like you.
correction: you served in the ENGLISH ARMY !!!! the flag representing you was the union jack !!! stop dragging ireland, Scotland and wales into limey misdeeds by applying the term "british"
I saw an interview somewhere in which Winters described a phone call with Tom Hanks. Tom Hanks told him that most history based stories are about 12% true. He said BOB would be about 17% true and Winters said he was good with that. Based on that, I don't believe that Winters approved everything in the series.
Winters had a disagreement with Tom Hanks and the writers about the language in the series. He didn't like the amount that the F-word was being used. Winters felt that though the word was used back then, the men did not say it as frequently as the show depicted. The BoB crew explained to Winters that the series needed strong language to feel authentic to a modern audience. Winters accepted this begrudgingly. Winters almost turned his back on the project when the writers wanted to have Guarnere call Lt Winters a "Dumb F-ing Mennonite" in episode 2. Winters objected because 1. it didn't happen, 2. he felt it disgraced Guarnere, and 3. it would offend audiences. To me, these anecdotes demonstrate Winter's desire for his men to be presented in a good light. The only person I don't think Winters gave a damn about saving face is Sobel for all the obvious reasons.
I'm reading "Fierce Valor" The true story of Ronald Spiers and his Band of Brothers. Some of the content of this video lines up with this author's conclusions, some not so much. With the craziness of combat and the fog of war constantly swirling about the soldiers involved, who can say with any degree of certainty what exactly happened where and to whom? I have read veterans description of certain events and although two or more persons were eyewitnesses to particular events, their descriptions varied greatly. The vibe I get from the book is that Spiers did indeed gun down a drunken NCO in self defense as the man refused to move to the rear after a direct order and did reach for his weapon; his final mistake. The author's contention was that Spears was a killer; the exact quality needed for an infantry commander. Who knows what really happened. Does it really matter after all this time? Thank God we had men like Winters and Spiers at that time to risk their very lives to rid the world of barbarous fascism. It is accepted that Amborose took liberties with the truth from time to time but I view BOB as a representation of what occurred rather than an exact narrative precise in every detail...
I think it does matter given that it does have to do with the reputation of people who were living and their families that still have surviving members. That being said, I had a similar impression of reading the book, a group this small it's not like someone was verifying every detail at the time so there is bound to be a certain he said, she said aspect to it. Some of the stuff seems like the usual problems with perception in such rapidly changing environments while other seems to be tall tales that soldiers like to tell. Some of it we will probably never know definitively.
People used to rely on SLA Marshall for WW2 history and he was no historian either. I give Ambrose credit for starting what is now the National WW2 Museum
Much like making a movie “based on a real event” authors will embellish the facts to make a book that will sell. All books are written to make money, not to inform.
Meh, Speirs comes off as one of the biggest badasses of the entire series: fearless, selfless, and competent. I for one couldn't care less if he looted silverware from people that spent a year trying to kill him.
Yes, certainly there is a certain cachet to the "...spoils of war..." perspective, but one must also realize that this was most probably a second looting, the silverware etc having been already looted from its rightful owners.
@@MrJal67 And that "probability" is what legitimizes you to enter the homes of unarmed civilians and rob them. Ok. Speirs was very lucky to be on the winning side of that war.
I think Dick Winters was a complicated man, as all men are complicated. I think he was brave, competent, and admirable, but also perhaps a bit arrogant (you have to be a bit arrogant to be as good at war as he was). I think the story is his story, and the story of those within the Company that were "Winters men," and his perspective drove the narrative. When the book was written, many men were already gone, whether through combat or illness or age, so their perspectives would never be told. Winters clearly held some of the "band" in high esteem, and held others in lesser esteem. That is normal in all human relationships. The narrative is neither true nor false, it is just his, and writing a story about the experiences of 200+ men and getting it even mostly correct is an impossibility.
That is one of the best assessments of a narrative describing a historical period and the men who lived it. I agree 100%. I think had Spiers been the central figure of the narrative, it would have been an entirely different story and just as close to true.
@@spinmancorner7543 And sometimes arrogant gets mistaken for confidence. I've certainly been accused of both. Fairly. We hold up MAJ Winters as a hero. This is certainly okay; but all of our heroes have flaws. They're human.
One of the nicest men I ever knew as a child had been a ranger at Anzio during the second world war. I must admit being a little startled when one night I overheard a conversation between he and my father regarding a mission where they were told "and we're not taking prisoners". War is Hell.
Especially when the airborne had orders not to hold or take prisoners. They didn’t have the resources to hold POW’s. So it definitely happened but it sounds like it was exaggerated in the series.
I eavesdropped on a number of conversations like that within the family, especially pals of my father visiting him. They're talking about things you don't want kids to hear. "Those Hitler Youth were the worst. They wouldn't stop. We burned the little fkrs out every time." or "The Krauts were stupid. They'd never stay down. I'd pin them down with my BAR then wait. One would always stick his head up for a looksee - Bam, dropped the bastard with one shot!" - fist pounding the kitchen table. I'll never for forget hearing things like that, or the fellows telling it.
My father was a physician with the 2ed Auxiliary Surgical Group which was part of the Anzio invasion. While attached to Darby’s Rangers he witnessed “we’re not taking prisoners”
I've been studying WWII since the 70's and I joined the military at age 17 in 1983 so for me it might be easier to tell truth from fiction. I read both the BoB book and watched the HBO series. They both are very good and give a pretty accurate account of at least what it's like to be in the military. The series was focused on entertainment more than accuracy but it still is an important watch. I saw several interviews with Winters he was a little arrogant but I don't count that against him, especially for what he accomplished. I was in the military for over 24 years I can tell you it can be grueling. I remember working 22 12 hour shifts in a 25 day period in 1984 and being pissed but that's nothing like what these WWII vets suffered through. You're out there in the field it's a pain in the ass. Very little sleep, awful chow, cold, grumpy, sore, you have to grab a tree to take a crap, every little thing pisses you off AND you still get yelled at because grunts are dying every day either by accident or stupidity. Oh yeah your best friend since training camp just got shot in the face by a sniper. I'll say if you want to know what it's like to be in the field in WWII one of the best movies is probably Battleground(1949) because in it almost every soldier complains about something, some even run away from the fight and you can't blame them, lot's of ditch digging, frozen hands, snide remarks, and comic relief. Battleground was made 70 years and it's still a great movie to watch and yes it tells the truth their job sucked but they did it anyway.
Thank you for your service. I think what you are misinterpreting about Maj Winters is that no matter what he would say, there was so much that he could not put into words. Only fellow military vets could ever understand, as I am sure you do from what you just said. In some of his interviews, his face is rather fixed. Please know he suffered from Parkinson's disease towards the end of his life and that is one of the symptoms. But he would have love you because you served.
I wouldn’t even care if Speirs had looted like a kleptomaniac. By that logic, every US soldier is a kleptomaniac for taking war loot. That’s the least they should’ve gotten for the hells they had to endure.
I agree. It irks me to hear Mark Felton repeatedly reporting in his videos about US Soldiers "stealing", or they "stole" such and such, (his exact words). What..., were our soldiers on a Sunday school field trip or something? Spoils of war I say...it's only fair. That generation of Americans didn't start the war, but they sure put a hell of an exclamation point on the end of it.
In 1977 I was 16 and started a little lawn n garden service and met very many WW2 vets... and they weren't Anything like what was depicted on Band of brothers! They all wanted Nothing to do with talking about or revisiting the war and the few that talked to me about it despised it and usually broke down crying!! I had very close relations with those vets and even joined the army and served in darmstadt w Germany from 1981 - 83 and trained with the 101st and got to see the eagles nest.. when I came back home to Iowa and told my veteran frends about my adventures most were happy for me but dident really want to talk about their time over there and a cupple of my vet frends broke down crying n their family's ask me nicely pls not to ask them about their time in Germany as it was just too painful and they wanted to live out their lives in peace... the last one of them that i knew passed away in 2015!! It was an awful war that was very destructive on all sides!! War is hell!!
I was 17 when the Viet Nam war ended. I had a few older friends that had gone and fought there. One friend, Bob, went through a lot of therapy to get his head back on straight again after his experience there. He told me of some crazy stuff he did and said that that is what war does to people. The one line I remember most from him was " some people think there is certain romance in war. There's nothing romantic about war."
My family members, teachers, instructors, older neighbors, mentors and coworkers who were WW2/Korea/Vietnam veterans, almost never talked about it with us kids around, for a reason.
I've had quite a different experience. I served 22 years with multiple combat tours and I really don't have a problem with it, nor do most of my fellow Vets. Many a drunk evening spent at the VFW and Legion talking about our experiences.
@@mattfulmer4243It’s a different war. In WW2 the average rifle company casualty rate was 400%. That for the period from June 6th, 1944 thru April 1945 and Germany’s surrender.
I was at HBO when this was made & knew many of the producers (although neither Hanks nor Spielberg who were well above my pay grade) - I used to watch "The Pacific" dailies with one of those producers. It wasn't a project I did any work on sadly, so I don't have a lot of insight to it - but I did work on most of the big HBO shows and I suspect the problems arose from mistakes by Abrose & then writers & studio execs who wanted each episode to have a nice arc with various subplots & high points - in other words, focused more on making great entertainment. I suspect Winters was able to protect his own story, but probably told to ignore it when the writers didn't let truth get in the way of a good episode. Remember one thing: HBOs goal here was to make entertainment & win Emmys - not to make a documentary. We can judge that decision, but nobody else was spending the enormous resources to even try & make this stuff. My boss, who did a lot of the budgets for these shows (which btw, these shows NEVER got big enough watching #s to justify the expense when they were made) told me "Masters of the Air" wasn't gonna get made because "nobody has a billion dollars to spend on it" - 10 years & a lot of advances in technology brought that down to $200 million- but it wasn't made by HBO- that's telling.
I was a history major, and I've read several of Ambrose's books. I came away with the impression that he had a general truth-telling impulse, but that he could get a bit sloppy when "exigencies" arose. His book on the Transcontinental Railroad had a lot of redundant passages, as if it had been written by a committee without a hardworking chief editor (I believe his kids were working as his staff at the time). And when you bring in Hollywood politics, well, as Viva Frei used to say, "Politics ruins everything." -- That's a bit of an exaggeration. Yeah, the victors write most of the histories, but some other survivors get their views into the record, and in both groups, there are some with basic impulses toward telling the truth in varying degrees. I take it all with a grain of salt, but I'm not a postmodernist, cynical dismisser of traditional histories. I do find that the biggest axes of bias that get ground are by leftist historians. They seem to hate the hard edges of truth the most.
@grizzlygrizzle It wasn't so much the "subject" that affected Ambrose's books it was his "style" itself. Stephen Ambrose always claimed he was a historical storyteller - so he had to get down to the "story" - the personal accounts or the in person interview. He often did let research assistants or later, his family do the digging through documents, while he interviewed or searched for the human story. it was his way of working, for good or ill accuracy...
@@grizzlygrizzlethat's crap about leftist historians. i should know, i was raised by one. it has always been the historians who lean a little to the left who keep the truth and reveal the lies told by the right wing academia.
Ambrose was in the business of selling books. I don't think he was concerned about historical accuracy compared to getting it in print and selling. I also believed that Winters had his favorites and that came out in the writing.
No, I think it came down to "favorites" as much as it came down to how much information Maj. Winters had on the individual over time. He kept exhaustive records on the guys and those who went to the reunions were just closer than those who didn't. That is why Ambrose picked this group to write about, because of the records.
My Dad served with the 26th Infantry Regiment, 1st Infantry Division from North Africa, Sicily, Omaha Beach, Hurtgen Forest, and was wounded on December 31, 1945 and invalided out to Valley Forge Military Hospital. Coincidentally, I served in the same outfit in Viet Nam. The “Fog of war” is a real experience that informs later memories. Memories change over time both by adding inaccurate experiences and more accurate memories. Those who have never experienced actual close quarters combat can write about war time experiences by interviewing actual veterans, but the process has many filters that both alter and enlighten written works. Thus, many varied voices must be heard.
My grandfather fought in another war, in the Spanish Civil War, what I mean is that veterans don't talk much about it, in the case of my grandfather, he started talking to me when I had to go to my military service, and then when he started to suffer from dementia, where his memories were already mixed with those of the war. And when he talked to me about his combat experience he always told me, that's what I remember, I don't know if that's what happened. He always told me that only those who have not experienced war, they are the ones who want war, and that there is nothing romantic about war.
I was once a member of an Army Reserve Military History Detachment. We were part of the 50th D-Day Anniversary celebration back in 1994. We interviewed a whole lot of vets. Americans, Brits, Germans. It was a very emotional even for these men. But one thing that I understood very early on. Is that they would talk to me. They would talk to me about things they never ever spoke or told their families. So there I am interviewing grandpa. AKA, dad, AKA husband. And they were telling me things they'd never told anyone but maybe their wife. And they were seeing dad or grandpa in a very different light. But they were finally able to talk to someone. Someone, in uniform who'd understand them and would not judge them. What they experienced is not what everyone has. But they did it. And their country called, and they answered the call.
My Grandfather served in World War II, Korea, and Vietnam. He was always proud of his service, telling me, "Give the Army twenty years, and they'll take care of you the rest of your life!" His ribbons sat on his desk. There's photos of him in uniform adorning his house. Telling his stories, it would be about the bases he went to, Guam, bases in Japan, Fort Dix and Fort Drum and Fort Indiantown Gap. He would make comparisons to the Army back then to the contemporary Army, "I hate the M-16. It's a toy!" When it came to Vietnam, he would always give vague answers, "I was in Saigon as a supply sergeant," and then change the subject. I think the most I ever got out of him, we were watching Apocalypse Now, the River Boat is chugging along, Grandpa said, "I hitched rides with those guys. They let me fire their guns into the jungles and into huts. I don't think I hit anyone, though." Growing up, I always thought that Grandpa was ashamed of something that he did, namely in Vietnam given how he evaded questions. He was in supply. I thought 'How much trouble could he get into as a supply sergeant?" It took me going to Iraq to understand why he didn't talk about Vietnam.
Speirs was also one of the few that stayed in the army until retirement. Retired military can be recalled at any time. Regardless of how many years ago they retired. So, he had good reason to be hesitant in bringing up things from the past.
Yes Sir, and don't forget that you can be tried for what you did or failed to do. You can lose rank, retirement, fined and imprisoned. Look at Fat Leonard scandal in the US Navy for example. You nailed it!
I think the irony of Speirs shooting prisons, regardless of context, and him becoming governor of Spandau Prison in the late 50s, is in the mix of factors that makes his story so complicated. Band of Brothers told a straightforward story about well-defined characters who each had a lane they stayed in so viewers can easily tell everyone apart. Reality is far more complicated. And hatchet jobs by people like Ambrose, or the series writers, who were sometimes more focused on forging a compelling story than getting every detail right, make it easy to understand why some members of Easy were unhappy with the final product.
I don't understand the criticism on Ambrose's book but not on the BoB series. It is not a documentary. Nobody watches it as a documentary. Also, without Ambrose's and Hank's story telling, Speirs, Winters and the likes would be anonymous nobodies. Let's be grateful for the efforts which allows us to give these great men the respect they deserve, even if it has a bit of a Hollywood smell to it all.
@@BMI2048 Unfortunately in our modern society, most people do watch it, and shows like it, as documentaries. I see people all the time on forums, comments on videos here on RUclips, cite things from the BoB series as if it were fact, even though we now know some of it wasn't. You may not view BoB as a documentary, I don't view BoB as a documentary...I've actually read the book...but most people do.
@@BMI2048 The problem with BoB is that it was a) The first of its kind and b) Extremely authentic looking. Both these reasons tend to fool people into thinking it’s going to be super accurate. Yes there are mistakes and yes it’s going to be entertainment biased but it’s a unique and fantastic TV experience. Ambrose book is a sloppy mess tbh, it’s been pulled apart by several Academics.
The entire book creates a myth about the Airborne. The 101st had 11,000 battle casualties (2000 killed) during the war, less than half the rate of most infantry divisions. They were light infantry, unsuited for the meat grinder of the big offensives. The infantry divisions that were engaged early, from Normandy on, all averaged a battle casualty rate of close to 200% and some well beyond that. Even that 200% is an understatement when you consider that the great majority of the casualties fell on the rifle companies that made up less than half an infantry division's strength. Those rifle companies suffered something approaching a 400% casualty rate. The Airborne performed well in their assigned roles, but those roles did not involve the heavy fighting that infantry divisions engaged in.
That's why Movies about Regular Infantry aren't made! They would be bloodbath horror movies. I've watched the Movie about Audie Murphy 2 or 3 times and always let down by how 'clean' it is. It comes across as a B Movie, which is a shame!
@@daniellejones5981though it does show him losing all his buddies, losing his cool and killing a lot of people at close range. The muddy farmhouse scene was good.
@@daniellejones5981 Just being honest, any WW2 movie made before the 1970s I would consider a "clean" depiction. There were much stricter rules about what you can show in movies back then, morality laws. Hell and Back is still a great movie just simply because a veteran is playing himself.
I toured the Normandy battlefields as part of the 80th anniversary of D-Day. Two of the guides were adamant that BoB has overblown the accomplishments of the 101st AB at the expense of the 82nd, who experienced more and heavier fighting. One also commented that Winters was a decent commander, but there were many, even within the 101st, who were better.
It seems everyone has their own reality. The good thing is that it brought attention to this generation before it became to late. Unfortunately when I was in public school it was not appreciated as it is in Europe. Rip boys and thanks for documenting your history.
Errors and fabrications were classic Ambrose stuff. He usually never shied from "embellishing" details, if he thought that it would make his books more exciting or saleable. He was also rather arrogant and did not like being corrected. Altogether a rather odd character for someone who taught history and professed to be a historian. This is why I have never been a fan of Ambrose's work. I did enjoy Band of Brothers, both the book and TV series, but I was well aware that some aspects were just not accurate. As a side note, I used to be friends with a guy whose parents were neighbors of Carwood Lipton. I had the honor of meeting Lt. Lipton and spending a bit of time with him. A very nice gentleman and fascinating to converse with him. I was ex-army myself, so we had a few things in common. Oddly enough, when I met him I was unaware of the BOB book...and I think the TV series had not yet been released. So, I didn't really know, at that time, the BOB story. When I later saw the HBO series, it was pretty exciting to realize that the man I met was Lt. Lipton.
My Dad was on the U.S.S. Lexington (cv2). When I asked him about the Battle of the Coral Sea, where he was a CGM, he said, "It was a long time ago." That was it. Many didn't want to talk about the battles and I suspect that it brings up memories of friends that died and many had survivors guilt. Why was I the one that made it? Interesting though. I think they were/are more willing to discuss their experiences with other veterans that they feel akin to that would understand what they went through.
@@petersone6172 Agreed. It came across as refreshingly accurate when first released but as time goes on more and more inaccuracies emerge and hatchet jobs on soldiers reputations whether intentional or not is unedifying. Now we are questioning Winters mindset towards the series and his attitude towards his fellow paras. Something we wouldn't have dreamed of a couple of years ago. If it gets much worse we will have trouble telling truth from lies.
Even your immediate family have completely different recollections of an event. Every Thanksgiving dinner the stories change over 30 years. I can just imagine the accuracy of accounts of events 50 plus years later among 20 different men during the heat of battle.
Brother you have me stumped. I must confess that I’ve never been one to toot my own horn so I’m at a loss for words. That being said you’ve done a great job at keeping this topic sane. 👊🏻
One of the less talked about problems in the series is the depiction of the British tank commander in Neunen. In the series he comes off as a hapless buffoon that wouldn't shoot through a building to kill an armoured vehicle that is threatening to kill him and his men. In reality the man this character is based on was a highly experienced and capable tanker who was in combat long before many of the easy company guys had even enlisted and started running up that mountain. He fought through North Africa, Sicily, Italy and Normandy before meeting his untimely end in The Netherlands. The real story is that he and the other tanks in his troop were supporting the infantry across some open ground in front of the village where there was no cover. He then got hit by fire from the village and he and his driver were killed. The other three crewmen made it out alive. He was highly capable and respected and I think it's a real shame that American ww2 shows feel the need to make the British look bad.
I agree. Whilst not negating the bravery of this group, it concerns me when they are so lionised - they were just one group out of thousands - all equally doing their duty - and should be remembered in that context. My mother - an army driver in the ATS during the war - would often recount how us Brits fought alone for 4 years with no support and how pleased everyone was when the ‘Yanks’ arrived - and how good and fit they looked compared to the exhausted Brits. ( Let’s no forget that whilst Lend Lease was a godsend, and did help enormously, we had to pay for it and were still paying it back until a few years ago when we finally repaid it, unlike the Germans who got post war support for free ) Let’s not also forget that the phrase ‘band of brothers’ came from Shakespeare’s Henry V and his speech to the troops before the battle - so it refers to the English! We remain grateful for the sacrifice of all, from wherever they came, and in that we don’t forget the sacrifice of those from the USA. In fact there is a website, South West Heritage Airfield trust , and we also maintain a museum in an original restored Nissan hut at Smeatharpe in Devon ( better known as RAF Uppottery, from when the 101st flew on D day) plus a brick original sentry box devoted as memorial to those lost - all remembered by name - as well as a further museum at Dunkeswell ( still an active private aerodrome ) which was a US navy station ( and where Joseph Kennedy served for a while). We remember them all.
@@bethzolin6046 All I'll say about that is it is Hollywood and many of us in the USA would be glad to trade Hollywood to any other country for about $100 dollars, redeemable in any currency you want it translated to 😊
@bethzollin6046 ---> Your post / idea is that of many British folks. The American view of things is different. On December 7th, 1941 we were attacked in the Pacific Ocean region by Japan... NOT Germany or Italy or Rumania or Hungary. The next day thousands of American men were lined up outside Recruiting Stations across the land. They wanted revenge against the murderous, raping, nasty Japanese that had set Asia and much of the Pacific ablaze. Instead,,,, the big-wig idiots in Washington D.C. (who were friendly with the communists in Moscow, U.S.S.R.) decided to make the main fight against the European Axis powers instead of focusing on the fight against the barbarous, psychotic Japanese. My own Dad had just purchased a 1941 Pontiac car in November..... He went to the local Recruiting station not long after the attack on Pearl Harbor and Wake Island & the Philippine Islands and joined the U.S. Army Air Corps (later name changed to U.S.A.A.F.) and his unit wound up in North Africa, then stationed at Sudbury in East Anglia, England with a B-24 Bomber group flying over Nazi-occupied Europe. He remembered seeing signs saying: "There are only 3 things wrong with the Yanks: They are Overpaid, Oversexed, and Over here". Thankfully not all Brits were so ungrateful ----> Cambridge University donated land for the American cemetery and many, many uniformed American Air Corp members are buried there in England.... they never got back "Stateside". That brand new Pontiac my Dad had purchased in November 1941 was "cannibalized" by my Grandpa because there were not new cars or tires for years in the U.S.A.. When Dad got discharged from Active Duty and made it back home.... He said: Dad: What happened to my car?!? Granpa said: "Well I figured since you left us, and that you would get dead over there, I would use your tires because we could not get any more." My Dad was NOT happy with that answer. As for "Lend-Lease" payments: You forgot to mention a couple/few things: (btw - I suspect your U.K. teachers never told you).... that before the U.S.A. entered WW2, a supposed Pacifist (F.D. Roosevelt) GAVE the Royal Navy 50 U.S. Navy Submarine Destroyer ships (commonly called "Destroyers") so that the Royal Navy could protect the Atlantic convoys. Do you think that the U.K. should have gotten free stuff from the "Neutral" U.S.A. taxpayers? U.S. citizens had NO new cars or tires from December 1941 until 1946. EVERYTHING was built/made for the U.S. military and allies of the U.S.A., especially Britain. Gasoline (petrol in Britain) was rationed even though the U.S.A. had oil wells and refineries. Horses & mules returned to plowing jobs because farm tractors ran on fuel, and almost all fuel was for the war effort. Singer sewing machine company started making pistols for the Army. Typewriter makers switched to making battle rifles. Ford motors in Michigan stopped making cars and began making B-24 bombers and the R.N. and R.A.F. used those B-24 aircraft to look for Nazi U-boats. {Finland was the first and for decades the only country to ever repay the U.S.A. for WW2 supplies/ help. Decades later P.M. Tony Blair finished paying the U.S. for the loans and massive amounts of supplies of WW2.} My mother told us that the U.S. citizens had no butter for years because F.D.R. was sending butter to the U.K.. She and other Americans were told to use shortening grease for a butter substitute and put yellow food dye in it so housewives could fool their husbands when they had bread. (That idea was from socialist slime Eleanor Roosevelt via her radio talks.) I don't hate the U.K. at all. My Paternal Grandma was born in Cheshire, England. Her family came to the States in 1911 when she was 11. Other side came from Oxfordshire in the 1800's. What I do not like is the Brits thinking that the U.S. taxpayers should give you folks free stuff in two world wars. My Dad's unit (The U.S.A. 8th Air Force) had the highest casualty rates of any U.S. military Unit in WW2. They were the ones stationed in Britain and made bombing runs over Nazi-occupied Europe. One out of five men in the U.S. 8th A.F. never made it home again. This last line / thought is for you and all the other British folks I have encountered on the internet forums/ sites over the years that complain about how American movie makers show WW2 films/movies/TV shows: You British folks have movie cameras, movie actors, movie studios, directors, writers, producers, special effects people so why not make a movie / TV series that you folks will like? {[ IMO - if the American Army and Generals not been in France in 1944 Montgomery and his British soldiers would still have been fighting Hitler's boys until 1950 --- something.]} Of course, IF the U.K. movie makers would ever make such a movie(s) / TV series, they will have to include a CC option so that we in the U.S. can understand the horrid Cockney noise and unintelligible Scots tongues.
My Grandma from Cheshire and her brother spoke clearly. She would pronounce every letter in the word "vegetables" - 😊 She could quote a page from a Shakespeare play and I could understand her just fine. Half of the stuff shown stateside on P.B.S. or I.T.V. from the British Isles is gibberish, such as anything from Keith Richards or some soccer fan hooligan.
You make an excellent point. My Dad was a WW2 vet and ALWAYS stated that the real heroes were the Brits and Empire forces as they carried the War by themselves for so long. The Rangers were trained, in large measure, by British Commandos. He expressed admiration for the Gurkhas, Tommies, Kilties (Scottish forces), and the Commandos. You guys sunk the Bismack, won the Battle of Britian and survived a starvation diet. I believe that Allied forces were ordered NOT to destroy buildings if it could be helped. Queen Wilhemina had set up her government in exile in Britian, as I'm sure you know. That also must have played a part.
Just spitballing here, but I'd suggest that Winters - being in the latter part of his life and, as I understand it, suffering from Parkinson's - believed he couldn't fix it all. It's entirely possible he didn't read all of Ambrose's book. As the HBO series gathered steam, Winters started paying closer attention to the script and other information (still getting the Blithe situation completely wrong), but again, I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt. I don't believe there was any kind of quid pro quo for Winters' support of the series -- and the book had already been published. What would be interesting to learn is determining how involved Winters was with Ambrose while Ambrose was writing his book. My bet is, not very.
In subsequent interviews, Maj. Winters stated he hated the s*x and demanded it be removed but was ignored. He did read everything Ambrose wrote and he did correct the record with regards to Blythe and others in those interviews. He does speak slowly and thoughtfully, and I believe fairly. He was a Mennonite and took his responsibility to history with great seriousness and care. And yes, you can see the effects of Parkinson's on the face.
@@MARYREED-nh7gb Interesting. Based on your statement, it would appear that Ambrose ignored Winters' corrections. I'm not familiar with Ambrose's subsequent editions of the BoB book; perhaps he corrected the record there. But if he did, those corrections never made it into the series. Ambrose died in 2002 from lung cancer, IIRC, and it's entirely possible his own health issues shortly after the BoB series was shown in Sept. 2001 kept him from doing more.
It’s an amazing insight to the real story behind the series, and it’s great to see that someone has done something to rectify the historical issues that has plagued with the story of Dick Winters and the men of Easy Company. I’ve watched it about every 6 months since it’s initial release on DVD, and still do so, but every time I seem to find out more and more inaccuracies with the story line which gives you a different perspective each and every time, however maddening or frustrating it may be. Your research is remarkable and is a testament to the real portrayal of the men behind the characters and how they deserve to be treated with respect and honour, as well as their families who now bore the brunt of their legacies. It’s terrible and inexcusable how Ambrose got it wrong with the poor research and how the reputations of some veterans are seemingly forever tainted in the eyes of the general public who are not historians. I bought the book years ago but still haven’t read it as yet, but somehow I don’t think that I would really want to now…
Read it. It is fascinating to learn what those guys went through. While there are inaccuracies in the book, the main body of work holds up. The airborne troops saved thousands of lives at Normandy by sacrificing themselves to hold the Germans at bay behind Utah Beach and they staunched the German offensive at Bastogne through their bravery and tenacity. The Band of Brothers is a tribute to all of the foot soldiers who persevered through the European theater.
@@katazack Hi mate Yes I’m hearing you, and I will do so now I’m retired. I really thrive on WWII history and I did my short time in the Australian army over 40 years ago so I appreciate what those poor guys went through and were the lucky ones. Thanks for your recommendation.
Well, implicitly. He said something to the effect that there was some benefit to letting people believe that he had killed the prisoners. That implies that he didn't really do it, but that he avoided correcting those beliefs. Seems plausible to me. I came away from the series believing that Speirs didn't really kill the prisoners.
I heard a lecture at the WWII museum, New Orleans. The speaker included a section about Speirs. Ronald Speirs was furious because his first wife was described as an unfaithful wife. She wasn’t she had a son with Ron but divorced him because she didn’t want to live in the States. He was married several times but remained close to her and his son was an officer in the British army. Ronald served out his career as commander of Spandow prison. There was more, there’s a book about him sold by the museum.
@@hpharridan No one is, but he was a man who killed because he had a job to do, not because of anything else. If there is anyone who embodies the pure warrior, I will argue that Mr. Winters is that man.
On executing prisoners My Pop was with the 30th Inf. 120th Regiment. After the Malmendy Massacre he said prisoners weren’t taken . Generally no quarter asked none given. He also said generally most histories were riddled with inaccuracies . He landed 6 days after D-Day and fought to the last month before the official surrender with the same outfit when he had enough points to go home. He had a Silver Star with OLC , Bronze Star, Purple Heart , CIB , and PresidentyUnit Citation for the Battle of Mortain.
In the Anthony Beevor book, once troops got wind of what the SS did and treated them accordingly. SS rarely surrendered any way. Many captured SS (rightly so) never made to camps in the rear.
It was official policy of some U.S. divisions to murder SS and paratrooper prisoners of war during the Battle of the Bulge. This is documented fact but as the Victor's write the history it us usually white washed away when the events of that time are being retold to the uninformed masses.
@@badlt5897 "Many captured SS (rightly so) never made to camps in the rear." Only a complete idiot devoid of integrity would condone warcrimes. You might also want to look up the meaning of the word "hypocrite" when you have a spare five minutes.
The Matthew settle interview and the “random drop in visit to speirs house is too good to pass on! I think Matthew wasn’t expecting for speirs to invite him in and offer him some coffee 🤣
Speers is just a war criminal if he has shot a prisoner to death, there is nothing heroic about that, even if he is a liberator of France. And if you think that Speers is not a war criminal, then the American prisoners who were shot dead by the Germans in the battle for the Ardennes are not war criminals either. And if you think differently about that then there is something seriously wrong with you
@pirsensor1186 only the losing side commits war crimes. In the Pacific, our guys didn't try too hard to take prisoners. They all wanted payback for Pearl Harbor.
@littleguy6753 Don't think it's much to do with revenge for Pearl Harbor it's more about the japanese fighting to the death, pretending to be dead then shooting you in the back or detonating a grenade when you get near. It wasn't just the americans the british, Aussies, Kiwi's and Indians had the same attitude and Pearl Harbor was nothing to do with them.
@@pirsensor1186There's a difference between 3 guys not taking prisoners during and engagement for logistical reasons and rounding up dozens of prisoners to a rearward position to then shoot them all, taking the time to check that all were dead by shooting and bayoneting the bodies. Context kind of matters when you're invoking "war crimes"
Thank you for your video, that reestablishes the factual truth and gives credit where it belongs. I’ve lost a lot of respect for Ambrose whose books, including Band of Brothers I’ve bought and read. Discrepancies about battles and their statistics can be excused, but when it comes to individuals behaviour and history it’s hard to forgive, especially if one calls himself an historian!
There is a big difference in the circumstances between, "not taking prisoners' during battle and 'taking prisoners' during battle only to murder them later on. For some people it is politically and commercially advantageous to deliberately obfuscate and ignore those differences.
In the series, the shift from Speirs being a combat leader to someone on the hunt for loot was odd. We saw it immediately in The Last Patrol. Odd writing.
Imagine your life being put on hold for years because of some evil men doing evil crap. Imagine your pay wasn't very good and you saw more horror in one day than most people will ever experience in a lifetime. Now you might become a little bitter and jaded by that experience and you might correctly feel that you deserve more than a medal and a pay on the back. You deserve to get some of those lost years back at least monetarily and taking some loot from the enemy to sell or simply as a keepsake to remind you that all that horror was real, is justified. I would have taken both keepsakes and valuable loot. There's stories of soldiers who came back and used the wealth that they took to start businesses and eventually become very wealthy and frankly I didn't begrudge them that at all. If anyone deserves it it's the people who rushed their lives to stop the evil other men started.
I saw it as extremely aggressive looting if there is such a term. If the man said he didn't agree with the act then even if he 'liberated' a few items it wouldn't have been as depicted. I am also yet to read any account of Speirs looting anything.
why is Europe different than the Pacific in our minds towards violence? Because they are white? I'm white, and a Marine, and when I hear the documented stories of how Some German units treated our prisoners, I find it amazing more of them weren't slaughtered. The SS was extreme, and they could be very brutal. The scenes depicted in Saving Private Ryan in the Beach Landing, show the brutality, the no quarter asked, and none given of that day. The fear, horrors, and anger seething all at once through men who just saw so many cut down and disfigured, it is no wonder men are savage to an enemy during and immediately after such battles. Also the fact that taking care of prisoners takes away men from the front, and when the fighting isn't over, and you need every man, things can happen. The savagery in island hopping campaigns of the Pacific war, fighting fanatics who refuse to surrender, and whose sole purpose is to kill as many of you as they can, those are a different set of rules to operate under. it's you and him, one lives, one dies, both do not walk away. So you fight to win, and you use whatever means necessary to make that happen. people back home have no idea just how savage it can be. They have no right to judge something they know nothing about. You have no frame of reference for it. These poor men were so beat upon, going through such savagery , there is no preparation for it mentally, training kicks in, and primal self preservation kicks in. it's a battle to keep one's sanity and not go completely cave man or insane. Many of those men were kept on the line for many times longer than peacetime doctrines taught. That pressure has to go somewhere. They have my utmost respect, European and Pacific veterans. They bore the brunt for us.
Morality aside, there are pragmatic reasons not to commit war crimes: What goes around comes around and an enemy who is reasonably sure they won't be harmed if they surrender is less likely to fight to the death. 1. Japanese brutality towards Allied POWs in WW2 bit them in the ass when the favour was returned. 2. In the Eastern Front of WW2, the losing Germans tended to fight to the death - taking as many Soviets down with them as they could. On the Western Front in the late stages of the war when they knew they were beat, knowing the Americans and British would treat them humanely, entire German units just surrendered. Hell, it's documented that German troops on the Eastern front started to desert and head West to surrender. This saved untold numbers of American and British lives. By the way, the main reason why the Japanese fought to the death was not purely because of religious devotion and a cultural aversion to surrender, but because they were informed by Japanese propaganda that a horrible fate would befall them if they surrendered. It was literally projection. You're probably aware of that famous letter where the Japanese described US Marines on Guadalcanal as being monsters recruited from mental asylums and prisons for blood lust? It's often been misinterpreted to mean the Japanese thought the US Marines were tenacious in battle. No, it was propaganda to instil fear in Japanese troops. They'd have written that letter about literally any American unit. That wounded Jap who'd blow himself up rather than let a US medic/corpsman treat him and be taken into custody was motivated to do that by fear he was going to be tortured to death anyway. If he'd known the truth, being interested in survival, he'd have surrendered, because the drive for human beings to survive is powerful. More powerful than any brainwashing, etc.
Every war is filled with myths, legends, lies, over simplifications, and misremembered actions. My father in-law, who had landed on D-Day and was later wounded in a motor attack about thee months later, loved the Series and thought it quite accurate to his own experience.
Just going on what you've said, it seems that Dick Winters was the main source for Ambrose's book, and the source deferred to when there were conflicting stories. He may have sat quiet, letting all the men speak at their first meeting with Ambrose, not saying anything, but following that up by sending Ambrose a written commentary and his own story would carry more weight than anything the men said, and he probably knew it. I would imagine any journalist putting together a book would take the written account Winters sent in and use it as the basis of the book, including notes taken during the meeting when necessary to flesh out characters. It seems like 90% of that book and series came straight from Winters, and if he were ever wrong, Ambrose and Hanks were there to take the blame.
Speirs was a badass for sure. I have always been drawn to Carwood Lipton the most. I like how they portrayed his coming up from Toccoa to the end. Sergeants are so important for moral.
I think a matter overlooked given how impressive the production was, is the time it was made in, and the standards of that time regarding historical realism. Ultimately the show is a drama, a late 90s, early 2000s war drama, with real no contemporary comparisons. I can see very many people involved, looking at other productions of the time, and before, and easily concluding this far in a way more faithful and realistic than anything ever produced before. In a way it obviously is. As well, speaking of time, they had years to paint a good enough representation, from disorganized and often conflicting accounts, and we've been given decades to critique and reevaluate. Ultimately, for the time they had, for the time they where in, they made a production that was far in a way good enough, not above critique, reevaluation, and correction, but I'd say above vitriol. At times they guessed, made up, ignored, history, to facilitate creating a product within the constraints and reason of the period, they got so much closer to reality then any production has since, both in film and television.
I’m SO INTO THIS CHANNEL GREAT HISTORY !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! When I build my PLASTIC MODELS….. I put it on Auto-Play and listen to what comes up in the rotation….. YOU HAVE MY LIKE 👍 CHRIS 🇺🇸
@@acfnugget7880 WELL, I’m guessing ??????????? MAXSMODELS ????? I do like using that phrase at other times when I comment on other channels… No matter what, I always appreciate fellow modelers and their comments and opinions……. and as always MODEL ON…… CHRIS 🇺🇸
Norman Dike was shows as useless officer when he had been decorated and his panic in episode wasnt cause he was shocked but because he was wounded. Was it again hollywood promoting Speirs over him to show how heroic someone else is and how bad someone other is? Almost like reality tv drama these days
That should’ve been December 21, 1944.as the date Dad was wounded at Bulligen. He spent many months recovering in the Valley Forge Military Hospital. He believed his eyes, face and shoulder injuries were from a German 88 tank shell. Very tiny pieces of metal found their way out of him for many years.
The thing about Speirs in the series is he kind of starts off as reckless. When they jump into Normandy and assault those artillery guns, Winters and Compton disapprove of how Speirs charges at the battery in a way that gets one of his men killed, needlessly it seemed. That has always struck me, especially since he becomes so revered by the end of the series.
Thank you for this every excellent review of Ambrose's book. I am NOT a fan of Ambrose as I consider him very sloppy and very willing to sacrifice the reputations of men he did not know for sensationalism (and to his personal "glory"). ANYONE can request information from the National Archives and get the facts. My father was one of the Rangers who went up Point Du Hoc on D-Day, so for me it is very personal, especially as soooo many websites have complete bulls**t on them. Dick Winters, in many interviews, tried to set the record straight with many of the guys. He ALWAYS tried to be very fair and balanced. You also could tell his love and respect for his men never wavered. And his men's love and respect for his, like wise. Thank you for all the work you did on this site. If it means anything to you, I feel Major Winters would have been proud of your work.
After 20 years of being told that BoB (the TV series) is the greatest and most respectful portrayal of war, and that Richard Winters is war's most noble warrior, it's alot to take in to find out that BoB is full of misrepresentations, and that Richard Winters is implied to be a cynical self promotionalist who willingly allowed his brothers to be slandered in order for his narrative to be portrayed. The latter is particularly hard hitting and disturbing.
As the series progresses the troopers give their version of events, not only does the number of prisoners Speirs executes increase, from ten to twenty to over thirty, the prisoners themselves change. First they're Heer, regular army troops. They then become Waffen SS, as shown by the SS insignia on their collars. Which wouldn't be possible as the the first SS units did not arrive in the American sector until around 11 June 1944.
Also, the Spiers stories were imo portrayed as what they were - stories that were circulating amongst the men of Eeasy. The text of the show doesn’t claim them to be true. And Spiers character even comments on it and doesn’t deny or confirm them. So it seems to me it’s true to what the reality would have been amongst the Easy men.
The ' stories ' about shooting prisoners are largely true. The British even differentiated between surrendered prisoners and captured prisoners. They would use captured enemy soldiers to clear minefields.
It might be a little unrealistic to expect Dick Winters to have more say on a script than the studio or guys like Tom Hanks. (Thanks-I bought Spiers' book based on these videos.👍)
from idle curiosity to real interest and then appreciation: I have watched most of your content and am compelled to say this - the truth is not always pretty, sometimes it is ugly especially when it contradicts something we believe must be true - want to be true, when offered by people we like and respect. Good men were tradujuced by Ambrose and others allowed it to happen...absolutely NO ONE is perfect, even Dick Winters but human nature - being as vicarious as it is, will always leave the deserving in want of honesty and objectivity. RIP Spiers and all who were mischaracterised by those who should have called it out. Mr Hanks, your star has been dimmed IMHO
He wasn't portrayed as a coward. He was portrayed as a man who slowly overcame his fear of death to function as a soldier. Nothing cowardly about that.
The scene where Tom Hardy is with the German lady and Speirs walks on in on them is hilariously bad. Yes fraternizing happened but I highly doubt any CO would have been that lenient, given he had just walked in on them. I read an account of an 82nd airborne officer locking 3 German women in a basement for a few days for fraternizing. Even Dick Winters wanted it out because it was in the most important episode, “Why We Fight”. According to Winters, Hanks won the argument and the scene stayed. Personally I don’t think Winters pushed back as much as he said he did because quite frankly it DID ruin that episode. Ambrose is a hack. But so are Hanks and Spielberg. How many WW2 movies has he done? All of them good. None of them accurate. In any case, this was a great video. Keep up the good work. You earned yourself a subscriber. Looking forward to more content.
It's a mini series, not a documentary. Guys like Winters are often taken advantage of by writers, producers, and directors. Guys like Winters are most often told they have far more control and input than they ever really do. The inaccuracies are sad, and regrettable. However, the mini series really brought the story to an entire generation that might have otherwise been oblivious. And it will continue to do so. Like anything else, it's a compromise, and a double edged sword. Of course we wish it had been 100% correct. Nothing ever is.
Getting history “right” is difficult, but very important. War is hell. These men were doing there best under extreme pressure. There stories should be told accurately and with compassion by those who were not there.
David Kenyon Webster wrote a very good book titled "Parachute Infantry". People say its the source of inspiration for Band of Brothers, but i think Ambrose never read it.
Its different look on things for sure, perhaps even "nuanced". Col Sink is certainly portrayed in a less flattering way; then again "The Last Patrol" more than hints to this.
Lets not forget the US troops who were murdered at Malmedy during the Battle of the Bulge. It was a nasty war during which killing your opponents was the rule. A lot of it occurred in the Pacific too, possibly more than happened in Europe.
My father was on Okinawa. From the very small snippets he told me many years ago, your assessment of the Pacific theatre is correct. It's not politically correct today, but the war in the Pacific was very much a race war. Not many of them surrendered, anyhow.
I spoke to Malarkey about the Germansoldier. I am from Eugene, Oregon and found that scene interesting. He said it did happen but the man wasn't shot. Winters has stated that Speirs shot POW's. If you didn't see it, you shouldn't comment even if you are a famous war hero like Winters. And you are right , only a combat veteran can judge the actions of another. I would have done what Speirs did. It sucks but he had little choice. War sucks.
My father served in Holland in the Canadian army 25th RCA. He was quite familiar with 101st and easy. He had told me some of the stories the men of easy had shared on the ship coming home. Ambrose played fast and loose with events, my father had shared with me some of what he was told by them. He never liked to talk about the war really. He never mentioned combat on his end. The incident of Spiers shooting the sargent, was him pulling a gun on Spiers. The man blowing himself up with his own grenade was one he talked about, in the context of the chaos one goes through in war. Its a dirty business.
I loved the series and have watched it several times. ALL of those men, including Cpt, Sobel were heroes. They answered the call and so many made the ultimate sacrifice. Thank you for your service and God bless.
While your points are well taken, in the end, it’s a huge project to undertake, both a book and a series, and there are so many things to get right that for the most part it’s impossible. You either demand it all be 100% perfect, which means it will never get made in the first place, or you do it and then have what normally happens, which is people point out what they got right, or not quite right, or wrong. Overall, Band of brothers is a fantastic story and we owe a thanks to Ambrose and Hanks for bringing it to life for those of us that were never there and could never be there. It’s like the movie Rudy. People say, “They never handed in their Jerseys!” They went to the old coach that was there and he said it wasn’t true. They said they needed something for the character to “overcome,” so the coach said okay. Sometimes not getting it 100% accurate can still get to the “truth” of the moment. It’s just what we have to live with when someone tells us a story.
The story was basically a rip off of “Currahee!: A Screaming Eagle at Normandy” by Donald R. Burgett. Currahee featured Alpha Co. 1/506th. I’m not trying to minimize the exploits of Easy Co, or downplay the tremendous leadership of Dick Winters. Both stories deserve to be told. My point is when I learned of Band of Brothers my mind went immediately to Burgett’s book. Then I realized BofB was written by Ambrose and I understood.
On June 8, 2001, I was on my honeymoon in Paris and met a member of Easy Company who was there to launch Band of Brothers. He was with two other younger men and they took our picture outside the Louvre with the Eiffel Tower in the background. After asking him about D-Day and the reunions taking place that week, the veteran told me something to the effect, "I told Ambrose I was not going to help him write his book, I'm writing my own." If he told me his name, I didn't commit it to memory, but after watching this and seeing the picture of Speirs and Winters together in 2001, I believe that it was Speirs who I met that day. Sure wish I took a picture of whoever that vet was, but I will say he had a sense of humor and was very nice to us.
That's a great story though I would say it was probably Buck Compton you met. He wrote his own memoirs and looked similar to Speirs in later life. Speirs didn't have anything to do with his own book and was only at the premier at Utah Beach.
@@War_And_Truth thank you, this helps me understand a bit more. It’s been 23 years and I didn’t even realize I met one of these guys until the series came out on HBO, so my memory of it is pretty bad. I assume Buck Compton didn’t work with Ambrose either? Do you think he could have been in France for the D-Day reunions in June 2001 and been at that June 6th ceremony in Normandy? Whoever this guy was had been traveling with members of his church, that’s another detail I remember.
Nobody (except on youtube) ever accused Speirs of being a war criminal. He was concerned however that after he was shown shooting POW's in a way which made him look like a cold blooded killer he could be arrested while in Europe.
If you watch and listen to Ed Shames take on the War namely when they parachuted into Normandy June 6th, it was he who along with some soldiers looking for their assembly point, asked if any of them had a coat to block out his flashlight while he used his compass to locate their destination not Winters.
Absolutely loved BOB and Saving Private Ryan. My own father was a Normandy Veteran with the 4th Infantry landing on Utah Beach but I was too young to ever ask him about it before he died. If you have the inclination, read Parachute Infantry by David Kenyon Webster. He played a fairly prominent role in the series and this is a compilation of his letters home and his memoir after getting home. It lines up pretty well with the series and perhaps Ambrose read it before making the series. Webster died in 1961.
It is said about biography that each is an instant myth. How many works on Lincoln have been produced, but it is pretty certain that if we were able by some means to meet the actual man, he would not be the man of legend.
As for Spiers executing prisoners: It became widely know that the Germans had tortured and murdered American prisoners, so a violent backlash resulted in the US Army response to this with several incidents of retribution against German POWs. Ambrose in later years was found to hire ghost writers that carried out very sloppy or no research in their work. He was also guilty of a great deal of fabrication in his numerous works for simple greed in selling his books. For a great set of D-Day and related battles, see Joseph Balkoski's books for their well-regarded accuracy and coverage of that part of the war.
A lot of shit talk circles within the platoons, mostly it's not diabolical or meant to tarnish anyone's reputation, but in banter and joking. Problem is this - A civilian catches wind of these things and blows it to hell out of proportion. I believe that's exactly what happened here - and it was embellished further in a screenplay for dramatic effect.
Having served in the Army 1970-1996, 2nd ID, 3rd ID, 82nd Abn, and 5th Special Frcs Grp, I can say without reservation that you are 100% correct. Those who have not served (at least in my experience in infantry) just do not--cannot--understand.
@@4325air Well, those of us who served, know this. In this case, the young troopers just added to Speirs exploits putting him into the badass, not to be messed with stratosphere. And like most, once he caught wind of it he laughed and brushed it off- at the time.
If I am not mistaken Ambrose was accused of plagiarizing excerpts from the book of Thomas Childers, PhD from his book “Wings of Morning” into Ambrose’s book “Wild Blue Yonder”. That should tell you something.
Because he fought with distinction in Korea and still served after that conflict as well. so you are basically erasing that service killing him off 20 years earlier. His family were very upset about it and that's good enough for me.
It's a huge slap in the face for man to have such an extensive military service record and to have died while on active duty to incorrectly state that he died in 1948 when he was alive and well.
a sa former NCO It is typical officer behavior even a beloved officer. We are not treated the same, from the brass down, expendable to the mission. In this case the "story"
Ambrose was a best a lazy, but prolific, writer and historian. That's a bad combination. But his numerous shortcomings were not obvious in the early 1990s. These issues were fairly well known by 1998 but seem to have been disregarded by those involved with the miniseries. Subsequent books by surviving veterans and their families shed some light on other points of view but there is a lot of bad research and storytelling in Band of Brothers and it casts doubt on some of his other work as well. But it will hard to get further details at this point since all these vets and Ambrose are gone now.
I’ve studied history all my long life. I’ve visited and known veterans from WW1-Afghanistan. What I’ve learned is that memories vary from perspective, that is, events in the first person are told to others who were part of an event but in a different vantage point and different experiences. Often 2nd and 3rd person understanding turns into first person narrative that is historical fiction rather thanks historical reality. I have watched Band of Brothers a dozen times. I think it’s good far outweighs its inaccuracy. Probably would be a good ideas for Tom Hanks to explain the importance of historical fiction when making a mini series or movie. There are certain things that must take place in order to capture and keep control over the minds and hearts of the audience. I think the books and the series should contain a note up front stating some artistic license has taken place to make this story suitable for entertainment. At this time the author and the soldiers who lived through these times are all dead. All we can do is look at what evidence we have that is factual and then realize the rest may or may not be exactly what happened. I know my stories of my youth are very different when told by my parents. The look at me and say, what planet were you on… and so say the same to them.
My Grandfather was a WW2 101st/17th Airborne veteran and growing up he talked a lot about the war and his service in WW2 and after. ( he was career military) . I remember Ambrose on The World at War growing up and thinking as a kid something was off with him. He never was at any of the 101st reunions that I went to with my Grandfather growing up and I knew little of him when his book came out. I just remember many WW2 paratrooper vets the 101st not having much care for him when BOB came out . I also had many head scratching moments with BOB. I really enjoyed the series but I also knew that nothing is 100% accurate but as time went on and the more I was able to see and confirm about Ambrose the more I disliked him and the more I saw what a fraud he really was.
Having retired from the Army after 28yrs service in the infantry, I have seen "believed myths" retold and retold to the point of everyone believing the myth. Even people who never served with the man the story was about, new guys got it absorbed into their reality. I am sure they would pass a polygraph. I recall one story about an alleged suicide and the circumstances relating to it. First, the suicide never happened. The soldier was suicidal, yes, but was evacuated to the medical folks as he should have been. He never did kill himself. He was chaptered out of the Army under medical reasons. The ill soldier did not ever return to the unit prior to his separation from service and his redeployment back to the states. I know about this story firsthand. I was the company commander at the time the events took place. A Captain, a commander, does not have any soldier leave or arrive without the requisite paperwork, period. You must review all the documents for accuracy, sign everything, then it is reviewed at every command level up the chain. In the end, the strange details of the myth came to my ears. The next day I had an all-hands formation. I told them the facts. I also used it to counsel them on suicide prevention and awareness and what to do about it, how to handle it. Lastly, I told them if they were going to talk about this incident, get it right. I bring this up because I was an older guy when I was commissioned. I had 8yrs prior enlisted time. I know from both sides how a young troop is impressionable and how age and experience makes one less so. I think some of what I explained is responsible to a point. As for historical data, like date of death, etc. that stuff can be established by an historian. I have a Masters in history.
Blyth. Not many understand the Blyth persona buildup. Why he was depicted that way for one scene When Winters motivated him awake while Blyth was in his foxhole. Blyth stood up. Took one shot and killed a German Paratrooper. One who had climbed the mountain and picked the flower worn on his lapel, that grew near the top, above the tree line. Proving how far up he had climbed. Many had failed. So. Our WORST was able 1:34 to KILL THEIR BEST. !
It is difficult to get it very accurate and I personally didn't have any "ill will" towards anyone in easy company after watching BoB multiple times. I consider them all heroes doing what they had to do in THE most difficult and dangerous time in all of humanities' history. Heck, even Sobel played his part and despite being a total a**, went to war and did his duty. You get on social media and all you can think is 'how far we have come from the greatest generation'.... these people actually parachuted into enemy held positions, charged fixed machine guns bunkers and held the line while sitting in frozen trenches while surrounded and starving. It is both inspiring and humbling. Stories like these and others (frozen Chosen... so many more) should NEVER be forgotten.
Several years ago (and well after his passing), my boss and I visited Mr. Ambrose's home in Helena, Montana on a paint/wallpaper job. Modest but beautiful place. Got to peek in his old office and sit in the parlor. That's about it. Shrug. Kind of a bystander-brush-with-greatness but tried to imagine him writing in there and was affecting enough.
"Albert Blithe died in 1948". Those words could have easily been changed to the truth. Blithe died in 1967 on active duty in the ICU in Wiesbaden Hospital in Germany after taking part in the Battle of the Bulge Ceremony. He was a Master Sgt. & had earned a Silver Star & Bronze Star in Korea. SOMEONE in Easy Company should have said something.
The point of the matter though is that no one in Easy Company knew that. That fault lies squarely with Ambrose who is the "historian" and should have checked the information given to him.
Too late now. It's regularly seen on TV and on the dvd/blueray. They are not going to re-edit the series for future broadcast (far too much bother and cost) and they certainly aren't going to swap my blueray set for an updated version. To be honest, they've done hatchet jobs on numerous veterans in the series and the mud sticks. It's sickening.
@@Smoshy16 Maybe. But as an historian, when every single Joe you interview says that a guy died, that's pretty close to first source material, confirmed by first source material over, and over, and over again. I agree that it was on Ambrose to "do the research," but I still extend him a bit of grace there. His research was pretty clear that the man was dead.
That is a pretty bizarre inaccuracy. It shouldn't have made it that far.
@@matthewcuellar7879 I get it. But if you have a conversation with 20 different people, or 30, or 40, and all of them confirm what they all individually believe (or at least do not contradict what most of them believe), what are you going to accept as "fact?" Yeah, we can hold it against him that he didn't go to the Army archives and find the guy's record, but sheesh, they ALL believed he was dead. Just one of those idiosyncrasies of life and history. I still extend him some grace on that one. Every book on history gets some essential fact wrong.
At least when they slandered Speirs, he still looked like the coolest and most badass character in the series. There was also a lot of mystery and ambiguity to the war crimes scene, which may have captured the rumors going around the company at the time. The slander of Blithe, on the other hand, is completely unacceptable. They need to delete those scenes or put a bold footnote at the end telling the audience how badly they messed up. A hero of the Second World War and Korean War should not be portrayed as an unsuitable coward with their full name attached. This is nothing but stolen valor in a different form and remains a disgrace to this overall good series.
You can't delete those scenes, Blithes story takes up most of one episode and once seen can't be unseen.
A clarification in the texts at the end, modifying the one that now exists about death in 1948, could be enough to make it clear that B. was a competent soldier who did his job.
@@Kretikos not slander, but okay
@@fus149hammer5 Good because I like the show
He wasn't portrayed as an unsuitable coward. He was lost, lost himself, and was overwhelmed by the experience. By Winters leadership and humanity he found back and volunteered in the end for an dangerous action against a sniper and got shot in the throat. I don't really know, how that is a portrayal of a coward.
Later in the series, you see one of the officers fall slowly apart, as he witnesses the horrors of war. Is he a coward too? It may seem, if you watch too many movies, that the portrayal of Blithe is odd or not appropriate. But it is a representation of something a lot of soldiers had to go through. Blithe found back, but many soldiers didn`t. Even today many don`t ever find back. And it was for all of them their first day in combat. So calling someone a coward, because he can`t cope, is far from reality. Even Clausewitz wrote, that you can be the best trained soldier and be the toughest guy, but if you really can cope with the horrors of war, you only find out, when you go in battle.
There is another perfectly reasonable explanation for Speirs not attending E Co. reunions. For the vast majority of the company's veterans, the war was a massively important experience in theirs lives, one which in many ways dominated and overshadowed the rest of their lives. Speirs, however, stayed on as a career soldier, fought in the Korean War (including yet another combat drop) and went on to many other assignments. In that context, the Easy Company experiences were just one set of many episodes in his life and likely did not hold for him the importance that it did for other company veterans. In fact, it was quite common for soldiers who later made careers in the military to not attend their WWII units' reunions.
Thats the same reason that I did not attend reunion events and the sunsetting from my first command. I served multiple commands throught the GWOT in 14 years. Many of the guys that attend those events only did one enlistment.
True, I’m a thirty year veteran of several conflicts and i don’t attend reunions. I’m over it.
Astute comment.
Based comment
@@ungratefulpeasant8085 Thank you for your service.
At a book signing and question and answer session for Don Malarkeys book at my local Borders Bookstore, Don Malarkey answered my question about the Oregon German POW incident. He didn't have a pause like his previous answers I asked and stated it right away that this did not happen. He even stated to the audience at the bookstore, and even his daughter had to calm him down a bit as he was getting a tiny bit emotional about it. He stated that he told Spielbergs assistant and anyone else that it didn't happen. He did acknowledge that the German POW was born and raised in Oregon.
Don Malarkey lived in my hometown of South Salem, Oregon, and I used to see him every week at my local Safeways store wearing his 101 jacket and Band of Brothers hat 506 PIR. He was always buying milk, eggs bread, butter, and bacon. He drove a very clean and prestine Plymouth Voyager mini-van with a Band of Brothers sticker and veteran car plates.
Even until the week he passed away, he was always happy to do interviews and talk about his experiences. His daughter kept his appointment and schedule, and you had to email or call her to set up a time.
But my own experience talking to Sgt. Don Malarkey, he wasn't happy about the German POW incident and he protested adamantly with Spielberg and probably Tom Hanks.
He had guts and integrity and wasn't afraid to speak his mind. And if Don Malarkey was adamant about it, I believe him.
Dude!!What's the name of Malarkeys book?!!?
Thanks for sharing that. Awesome that he made himself accessible to talk to folks like that.
Malarkey was also the one that told Stephen Ambrose (and later the B o B production staff) about the Niland Brothers, backed up by Sgt Warren H "Skip" Muck, who was also from the same town as the Niland family. This episode became the main basis for _Saving Private Ryan_ (along with the famous Sullivan Brothers..).
Malarkey's book title is _Easy Company Soldier : The Legendary Battles of a Sergeant from World War II's "Band of Brothers"_ - it is co - authored by Donald G Malarkey, and Bob Welch [ ISBN 978-0-312-37849-3 ] (and his book is no doubt more... accurate then Stephen Ambrose has written).
@@wirelessone2986 Easy Company Soldier with Bob Welch, St Martins Press
@@fr8dawg767 Thank You!!
Ed Shames said he told Ambrose several times that his book had a lot of errors, then gave up on him. Ambrose's response was to virtually write him out of history. I believe Shames was the first enlisted man to receive a commission in the entire battalion. Prior to Normandy he was the man responsible for creating the sand tables for the paratroopers on the big night. He was apparently exceptional at reading maps, as he said he was fascinated with maps and collected them since he was a child.
Write him out of history LMAO! Hyperbole much?
Ed Shames had a very high high opinion of himself.
@@THEZEKER1964 lol! Wait, Ed had a very high opinion of herself, or of Steven?
Ambrose's colonial American histories are also loaded with his big blindspots and even racist celebrations of "the conquest of the West," actually meaning the genocidal invasion. He always strikes me as a pompous ass.
@@37Dionysos ah, so MAGA probably loves him
My Uncle, Sgt. Louis B (Shorty) Flores, joined the regiment before D-Day and went through every action and battle up to the end of the war. He told me that the book was very accurate as a general depiction, and recommended it to me as a good way to see what he went through.
thank you for such a display of common sense
I seriously doubt the characters in the TV Series or Book were as bad or as good as they were made out to be but rather far more ‘human’. The reality is they were all brave men in extraordinary times doing the best they could.
When will writers learn that the actual events told as they actually happened would be the best of the best documentaries - it's real life with all of it's warts, full of human heroics and failures, including the dull inactive and boring moments, gritty and awful sometimes and most of all it's the truth and not a bunch of lies and concocted scenes from the writers beliefs of what could have happened to better sell the product. The writers are the real liars and conjurers of fanciful tales often led on by individuals who experienced the events but often had faulty and bedeviled memories of what actually happened.
@hacc220able War doesn't cooperate with writers. There is no real foreshadowing or plot armour. They start to create composite characters, or have to change people's names for legal reasons. The " death " of Pvt. Blithe would fulfill the death of innocence requirement for a standard war movie, and it would be difficult to get it removed.
I haven’t seen BOB. I served in the British Army and saw active service. I’m now 63. I live a very solitary life - my choice. I began to question my own vivid memories of being mortared as I was in a chopper taking off to be dropped off on patrol. Despite being vivid I simply began to doubt that the incident had happened as I ‘remembered’. It was a serious incident.
Recently I had occasion to mention it on a RUclips channel dealing with the conflict. It was amazing because a variety of different sources both military ans civilian confirmed each detail that I’d begin to doubt. It was very moving for me. I didn’t mention that I had began to question my recall.
Thank you for your service
Well said, brother. I had a 17th year reunion with my old Iraq platoon a couple of years ago. "Only" 17 years had passed, but each and every one of us had very different recollections of the firefights we were in. Some were looking at it through the sights of an M4 or M16; some were seeing it from a HMMWV with an ear to a radio mic; some were seeing it from a broader point of view. We were all there, but each of us had a different experience of the same event - and there were only 16 of us!
I hope you spend the rest of your days in peace. Glad to have cousins and allies like you.
correction: you served in the ENGLISH ARMY !!!! the flag representing you was the union jack !!! stop dragging ireland, Scotland and wales into limey misdeeds by applying the term "british"
@@casedismissed8581 You need psychiatric help and history lessons. Not sure which the priority is. Bloody spam.
@@casedismissed8581 do you have PLMD (Google it)? Here’s the England flag. 🏴
I saw an interview somewhere in which Winters described a phone call with Tom Hanks. Tom Hanks told him that most history based stories are about 12% true. He said BOB would be about 17% true and Winters said he was good with that. Based on that, I don't believe that Winters approved everything in the series.
No but he certainly approved any scene he was in. I cant really find any inaccuracies between Winters memoirs and the series where he is concerned.
Winters had a disagreement with Tom Hanks and the writers about the language in the series. He didn't like the amount that the F-word was being used. Winters felt that though the word was used back then, the men did not say it as frequently as the show depicted. The BoB crew explained to Winters that the series needed strong language to feel authentic to a modern audience. Winters accepted this begrudgingly.
Winters almost turned his back on the project when the writers wanted to have Guarnere call Lt Winters a "Dumb F-ing Mennonite" in episode 2. Winters objected because 1. it didn't happen, 2. he felt it disgraced Guarnere, and 3. it would offend audiences. To me, these anecdotes demonstrate Winter's desire for his men to be presented in a good light. The only person I don't think Winters gave a damn about saving face is Sobel for all the obvious reasons.
I'm reading "Fierce Valor" The true story of Ronald Spiers and his Band of Brothers. Some of the content of this video lines up with this author's conclusions, some not so much. With the craziness of combat and the fog of war constantly swirling about the soldiers involved, who can say with any degree of certainty what exactly happened where and to whom? I have read veterans description of certain events and although two or more persons were eyewitnesses to particular events, their descriptions varied greatly. The vibe I get from the book is that Spiers did indeed gun down a drunken NCO in self defense as the man refused to move to the rear after a direct order and did reach for his weapon; his final mistake. The author's contention was that Spears was a killer; the exact quality needed for an infantry commander. Who knows what really happened. Does it really matter after all this time? Thank God we had men like Winters and Spiers at that time to risk their very lives to rid the world of barbarous fascism. It is accepted that Amborose took liberties with the truth from time to time but I view BOB as a representation of what occurred rather than an exact narrative precise in every detail...
I think it does matter given that it does have to do with the reputation of people who were living and their families that still have surviving members. That being said, I had a similar impression of reading the book, a group this small it's not like someone was verifying every detail at the time so there is bound to be a certain he said, she said aspect to it. Some of the stuff seems like the usual problems with perception in such rapidly changing environments while other seems to be tall tales that soldiers like to tell. Some of it we will probably never know definitively.
Seems like Ambrose took a lot of liberty with his writing of the book. The more I find out, the more I distrust Ambrose and ANYTHING he writes.
I long ago dismissed Stephen Ambrose as someone more interested in publicity and book sales than any kind of historian or scholar.
Ambrose isn’t doing any writing anymore. He’s been dead quite a while.
People used to rely on SLA Marshall for WW2 history and he was no historian either. I give Ambrose credit for starting what is now the National WW2 Museum
Ambrose is not what I would call a historian.
Much like making a movie “based on a real event” authors will embellish the facts to make a book that will sell. All books are written to make money, not to inform.
Meh, Speirs comes off as one of the biggest badasses of the entire series: fearless, selfless, and competent. I for one couldn't care less if he looted silverware from people that spent a year trying to kill him.
I agree. Salute
since ancient times warriors have claimed as their right the spoils of war
True, but looters usually don't have a good image.
Yes, certainly there is a certain cachet to the "...spoils of war..." perspective, but one must also realize that this was most probably a second looting, the silverware etc having been already looted from its rightful owners.
@@MrJal67 And that "probability" is what legitimizes you to enter the homes of unarmed civilians and rob them. Ok.
Speirs was very lucky to be on the winning side of that war.
I think Dick Winters was a complicated man, as all men are complicated. I think he was brave, competent, and admirable, but also perhaps a bit arrogant (you have to be a bit arrogant to be as good at war as he was). I think the story is his story, and the story of those within the Company that were "Winters men," and his perspective drove the narrative. When the book was written, many men were already gone, whether through combat or illness or age, so their perspectives would never be told. Winters clearly held some of the "band" in high esteem, and held others in lesser esteem. That is normal in all human relationships. The narrative is neither true nor false, it is just his, and writing a story about the experiences of 200+ men and getting it even mostly correct is an impossibility.
That is one of the best assessments of a narrative describing a historical period and the men who lived it. I agree 100%. I think had Spiers been the central figure of the narrative, it would have been an entirely different story and just as close to true.
Sometimes confident gets mistaken for arrogance, just saying…
True. We cannot expect perfection, just perspective.
If you interviewed my battery on their experiences, aside from the AAR, you'd get 100 different perspectives. All vets know this.
@@spinmancorner7543 And sometimes arrogant gets mistaken for confidence. I've certainly been accused of both. Fairly. We hold up MAJ Winters as a hero. This is certainly okay; but all of our heroes have flaws. They're human.
One of the nicest men I ever knew as a child had been a ranger at Anzio during the second world war. I must admit being a little startled when one night I overheard a conversation between he and my father regarding a mission where they were told "and we're not taking prisoners". War is Hell.
Especially when the airborne had orders not to hold or take prisoners. They didn’t have the resources to hold POW’s. So it definitely happened but it sounds like it was exaggerated in the series.
@@jasonwhitaker4883 Orders or no, it's still a war crime, and technically not a legal order to give. But, the victors write the history afterall.
I eavesdropped on a number of conversations like that within the family, especially pals of my father visiting him. They're talking about things you don't want kids to hear. "Those Hitler Youth were the worst. They wouldn't stop. We burned the little fkrs out every time." or "The Krauts were stupid. They'd never stay down. I'd pin them down with my BAR then wait. One would always stick his head up for a looksee - Bam, dropped the bastard with one shot!" - fist pounding the kitchen table. I'll never for forget hearing things like that, or the fellows telling it.
@@winstonsmith8482 Techinally I don't think there was a law that explicitly forbade it until 1949, but I could be wrong.
My father was a physician with the 2ed Auxiliary Surgical Group which was part of the Anzio invasion. While attached to Darby’s Rangers he witnessed “we’re not taking prisoners”
I've been studying WWII since the 70's and I joined the military at age 17 in 1983 so for me it might be easier to tell truth from fiction. I read both the BoB book and watched the HBO series. They both are very good and give a pretty accurate account of at least what it's like to be in the military. The series was focused on entertainment more than accuracy but it still is an important watch.
I saw several interviews with Winters he was a little arrogant but I don't count that against him, especially for what he accomplished. I was in the military for over 24 years I can tell you it can be grueling. I remember working 22 12 hour shifts in a 25 day period in 1984 and being pissed but that's nothing like what these WWII vets suffered through. You're out there in the field it's a pain in the ass. Very little sleep, awful chow, cold, grumpy, sore, you have to grab a tree to take a crap, every little thing pisses you off AND you still get yelled at because grunts are dying every day either by accident or stupidity. Oh yeah your best friend since training camp just got shot in the face by a sniper.
I'll say if you want to know what it's like to be in the field in WWII one of the best movies is probably Battleground(1949) because in it almost every soldier complains about something, some even run away from the fight and you can't blame them, lot's of ditch digging, frozen hands, snide remarks, and comic relief. Battleground was made 70 years and it's still a great movie to watch and yes it tells the truth their job sucked but they did it anyway.
I concur.
I joined at 17 too, in 1965. I've been studying WWII and surrounding history since about 13 years old.
I too joined @ 17 and I agree - Battleground is as close as it gets
Thank you for your service. I think what you are misinterpreting about Maj Winters is that no matter what he would say, there was so much that he could not put into words. Only fellow military vets could ever understand, as I am sure you do from what you just said. In some of his interviews, his face is rather fixed. Please know he suffered from Parkinson's disease towards the end of his life and that is one of the symptoms. But he would have love you because you served.
The Blythe situation could have been easily rectified
I wouldn’t even care if Speirs had looted like a kleptomaniac. By that logic, every US soldier is a kleptomaniac for taking war loot. That’s the least they should’ve gotten for the hells they had to endure.
I agree. It irks me to hear Mark Felton repeatedly reporting in his videos about US Soldiers "stealing", or they "stole" such and such, (his exact words). What..., were our soldiers on a Sunday school field trip or something? Spoils of war I say...it's only fair. That generation of Americans didn't start the war, but they sure put a hell of an exclamation point on the end of it.
I agree. Salute
And what about the hell they put the civilians they were stealing from through? who themselves had already had to endure the hell of war aswell.
“To the victor go the spoils”
@@winstonsmith8482you can’t fight city hall, pipe down and take a lap
In 1977 I was 16 and started a little lawn n garden service and met very many WW2 vets... and they weren't Anything like what was depicted on Band of brothers! They all wanted Nothing to do with talking about or revisiting the war and the few that talked to me about it despised it and usually broke down crying!! I had very close relations with those vets and even joined the army and served in darmstadt w Germany from 1981 - 83 and trained with the 101st and got to see the eagles nest.. when I came back home to Iowa and told my veteran frends about my adventures most were happy for me but dident really want to talk about their time over there and a cupple of my vet frends broke down crying n their family's ask me nicely pls not to ask them about their time in Germany as it was just too painful and they wanted to live out their lives in peace... the last one of them that i knew passed away in 2015!! It was an awful war that was very destructive on all sides!! War is hell!!
I was 17 when the Viet Nam war ended. I had a few older friends that had gone and fought there. One friend, Bob, went through a lot of therapy to get his head back on straight again after his experience there. He told me of some crazy stuff he did and said that that is what war does to people. The one line I remember most from him was " some people think there is certain romance in war. There's nothing romantic about war."
Well seeing that almost all of their toughest combat was anywhere BUT Germany, I'd say you have a case of the Ambrose's.....
My family members, teachers, instructors, older neighbors, mentors and coworkers who were WW2/Korea/Vietnam veterans, almost never talked about it with us kids around, for a reason.
I've had quite a different experience. I served 22 years with multiple combat tours and I really don't have a problem with it, nor do most of my fellow Vets. Many a drunk evening spent at the VFW and Legion talking about our experiences.
@@mattfulmer4243It’s a different war. In WW2 the average rifle company casualty rate was 400%. That for the period from June 6th, 1944 thru April 1945 and Germany’s surrender.
I was at HBO when this was made & knew many of the producers (although neither Hanks nor Spielberg who were well above my pay grade) - I used to watch "The Pacific" dailies with one of those producers. It wasn't a project I did any work on sadly, so I don't have a lot of insight to it - but I did work on most of the big HBO shows and I suspect the problems arose from mistakes by Abrose & then writers & studio execs who wanted each episode to have a nice arc with various subplots & high points - in other words, focused more on making great entertainment. I suspect Winters was able to protect his own story, but probably told to ignore it when the writers didn't let truth get in the way of a good episode.
Remember one thing: HBOs goal here was to make entertainment & win Emmys - not to make a documentary. We can judge that decision, but nobody else was spending the enormous resources to even try & make this stuff. My boss, who did a lot of the budgets for these shows (which btw, these shows NEVER got big enough watching #s to justify the expense when they were made) told me "Masters of the Air" wasn't gonna get made because "nobody has a billion dollars to spend on it" - 10 years & a lot of advances in technology brought that down to $200 million- but it wasn't made by HBO- that's telling.
Great insight. Thank you.
I was a history major, and I've read several of Ambrose's books. I came away with the impression that he had a general truth-telling impulse, but that he could get a bit sloppy when "exigencies" arose. His book on the Transcontinental Railroad had a lot of redundant passages, as if it had been written by a committee without a hardworking chief editor (I believe his kids were working as his staff at the time). And when you bring in Hollywood politics, well, as Viva Frei used to say, "Politics ruins everything."
-- That's a bit of an exaggeration. Yeah, the victors write most of the histories, but some other survivors get their views into the record, and in both groups, there are some with basic impulses toward telling the truth in varying degrees. I take it all with a grain of salt, but I'm not a postmodernist, cynical dismisser of traditional histories. I do find that the biggest axes of bias that get ground are by leftist historians. They seem to hate the hard edges of truth the most.
@grizzlygrizzle It wasn't so much the "subject" that affected Ambrose's books it was his "style" itself. Stephen Ambrose always claimed he was a historical storyteller - so he had to get down to the "story" - the personal accounts or the in person interview. He often did let research assistants or later, his family do the digging through documents, while he interviewed or searched for the human story. it was his way of working, for good or ill accuracy...
@@grizzlygrizzlethat's crap about leftist historians. i should know, i was raised by one. it has always been the historians who lean a little to the left who keep the truth and reveal the lies told by the right wing academia.
Ambrose was in the business of selling books. I don't think he was concerned about historical accuracy compared to getting it in print and selling. I also believed that Winters had his favorites and that came out in the writing.
No, I think it came down to "favorites" as much as it came down to how much information Maj. Winters had on the individual over time. He kept exhaustive records on the guys and those who went to the reunions were just closer than those who didn't. That is why Ambrose picked this group to write about, because of the records.
My Dad served with the 26th Infantry Regiment, 1st Infantry Division from North Africa, Sicily, Omaha Beach, Hurtgen Forest, and was wounded on December 31, 1945 and invalided out to Valley Forge Military Hospital. Coincidentally, I served in the same outfit in Viet Nam. The “Fog of war” is a real experience that informs later memories. Memories change over time both by adding inaccurate experiences and more accurate memories. Those who have never experienced actual close quarters combat can write about war time experiences by interviewing actual veterans, but the process has many filters that both alter and enlighten written works. Thus, many varied voices must be heard.
"wounded on December 31, 1945" ?? 1944 maybe???
Yes, please explain what war your dad was in on the date of December 31, 1945?
@@moappleseider1699 Typo it shoud read December 21, 1944. Battle of the Bulge at Bulligen with the 26th Infantry Regiment, 1st Infantry Division.
@@josephdirvin401 I figured that was what happened. Thank you
My grandfather fought in another war, in the Spanish Civil War, what I mean is that veterans don't talk much about it, in the case of my grandfather, he started talking to me when I had to go to my military service, and then when he started to suffer from dementia, where his memories were already mixed with those of the war. And when he talked to me about his combat experience he always told me, that's what I remember, I don't know if that's what happened. He always told me that only those who have not experienced war, they are the ones who want war, and that there is nothing romantic about war.
I was once a member of an Army Reserve Military History Detachment.
We were part of the 50th D-Day Anniversary celebration back in 1994.
We interviewed a whole lot of vets.
Americans, Brits, Germans.
It was a very emotional even for these men.
But one thing that I understood very early on.
Is that they would talk to me.
They would talk to me about things they never ever spoke or told their families.
So there I am interviewing grandpa.
AKA, dad, AKA husband.
And they were telling me things they'd never told anyone but maybe their wife.
And they were seeing dad or grandpa in a very different light.
But they were finally able to talk to someone.
Someone, in uniform who'd understand them and would not judge them.
What they experienced is not what everyone has.
But they did it.
And their country called, and they answered the call.
My Grandfather served in World War II, Korea, and Vietnam. He was always proud of his service, telling me, "Give the Army twenty years, and they'll take care of you the rest of your life!" His ribbons sat on his desk. There's photos of him in uniform adorning his house. Telling his stories, it would be about the bases he went to, Guam, bases in Japan, Fort Dix and Fort Drum and Fort Indiantown Gap. He would make comparisons to the Army back then to the contemporary Army, "I hate the M-16. It's a toy!"
When it came to Vietnam, he would always give vague answers, "I was in Saigon as a supply sergeant," and then change the subject. I think the most I ever got out of him, we were watching Apocalypse Now, the River Boat is chugging along, Grandpa said, "I hitched rides with those guys. They let me fire their guns into the jungles and into huts. I don't think I hit anyone, though."
Growing up, I always thought that Grandpa was ashamed of something that he did, namely in Vietnam given how he evaded questions. He was in supply. I thought 'How much trouble could he get into as a supply sergeant?"
It took me going to Iraq to understand why he didn't talk about Vietnam.
Thank you for the work you did with the guys. I hope you got some nurses along the way. (Invaluable research!)
Speirs was also one of the few that stayed in the army until retirement. Retired military can be recalled at any time. Regardless of how many years ago they retired. So, he had good reason to be hesitant in bringing up things from the past.
It isn’t necessary to stay in the military until retirement to be recalled for any issue. If you served, got out, you are subject to immediate recall.
All officers are subject to recall if my facts are correct.
Yes Sir, and don't forget that you can be tried for what you did or failed to do. You can lose rank, retirement, fined and imprisoned. Look at Fat Leonard scandal in the US Navy for example. You nailed it!
I think the irony of Speirs shooting prisons, regardless of context, and him becoming governor of Spandau Prison in the late 50s, is in the mix of factors that makes his story so complicated. Band of Brothers told a straightforward story about well-defined characters who each had a lane they stayed in so viewers can easily tell everyone apart. Reality is far more complicated. And hatchet jobs by people like Ambrose, or the series writers, who were sometimes more focused on forging a compelling story than getting every detail right, make it easy to understand why some members of Easy were unhappy with the final product.
I don't understand the criticism on Ambrose's book but not on the BoB series. It is not a documentary. Nobody watches it as a documentary. Also, without Ambrose's and Hank's story telling, Speirs, Winters and the likes would be anonymous nobodies. Let's be grateful for the efforts which allows us to give these great men the respect they deserve, even if it has a bit of a Hollywood smell to it all.
@@BMI2048🤫🤫🤫 that is too reasonable of an opinion. But I agree with ya 💯
@@BMI2048 Unfortunately in our modern society, most people do watch it, and shows like it, as documentaries. I see people all the time on forums, comments on videos here on RUclips, cite things from the BoB series as if it were fact, even though we now know some of it wasn't. You may not view BoB as a documentary, I don't view BoB as a documentary...I've actually read the book...but most people do.
@@BMI2048 The problem with BoB is that it was a) The first of its kind and b) Extremely authentic looking. Both these reasons tend to fool people into thinking it’s going to be super accurate. Yes there are mistakes and yes it’s going to be entertainment biased but it’s a unique and fantastic TV experience. Ambrose book is a sloppy mess tbh, it’s been pulled apart by several Academics.
The entire book creates a myth about the Airborne. The 101st had 11,000 battle casualties (2000 killed) during the war, less than half the rate of most infantry divisions. They were light infantry, unsuited for the meat grinder of the big offensives. The infantry divisions that were engaged early, from Normandy on, all averaged a battle casualty rate of close to 200% and some well beyond that. Even that 200% is an understatement when you consider that the great majority of the casualties fell on the rifle companies that made up less than half an infantry division's strength. Those rifle companies suffered something approaching a 400% casualty rate. The Airborne performed well in their assigned roles, but those roles did not involve the heavy fighting that infantry divisions engaged in.
That's why Movies about Regular Infantry aren't made! They would be bloodbath horror movies. I've watched the Movie about Audie Murphy 2 or 3 times and always let down by how 'clean' it is. It comes across as a B Movie, which is a shame!
@@daniellejones5981though it does show him losing all his buddies, losing his cool and killing a lot of people at close range. The muddy farmhouse scene was good.
@@daniellejones5981 Just being honest, any WW2 movie made before the 1970s I would consider a "clean" depiction. There were much stricter rules about what you can show in movies back then, morality laws. Hell and Back is still a great movie just simply because a veteran is playing himself.
I toured the Normandy battlefields as part of the 80th anniversary of D-Day. Two of the guides were adamant that BoB has overblown the accomplishments of the 101st AB at the expense of the 82nd, who experienced more and heavier fighting. One also commented that Winters was a decent commander, but there were many, even within the 101st, who were better.
@@daniellejones5981Audie Murphy didn't even want to make that movie.
It seems everyone has their own reality. The good thing is that it brought attention to this generation before it became to late. Unfortunately when I was in public school it was not appreciated as it is in Europe. Rip boys and thanks for documenting your history.
Errors and fabrications were classic Ambrose stuff. He usually never shied from "embellishing" details, if he thought that it would make his books more exciting or saleable. He was also rather arrogant and did not like being corrected. Altogether a rather odd character for someone who taught history and professed to be a historian.
This is why I have never been a fan of Ambrose's work. I did enjoy Band of Brothers, both the book and TV series, but I was well aware that some aspects were just not accurate.
As a side note, I used to be friends with a guy whose parents were neighbors of Carwood Lipton. I had the honor of meeting Lt. Lipton and spending a bit of time with him. A very nice gentleman and fascinating to converse with him. I was ex-army myself, so we had a few things in common. Oddly enough, when I met him I was unaware of the BOB book...and I think the TV series had not yet been released. So, I didn't really know, at that time, the BOB story. When I later saw the HBO series, it was pretty exciting to realize that the man I met was Lt. Lipton.
My Dad was on the U.S.S. Lexington (cv2). When I asked him about the Battle of the Coral Sea, where he was a CGM, he said, "It was a long time ago." That was it. Many didn't want to talk about the battles and I suspect that it brings up memories of friends that died and many had survivors guilt. Why was I the one that made it? Interesting though. I think they were/are more willing to discuss their experiences with other veterans that they feel akin to that would understand what they went through.
I enjoyed BOB very much, but these unnecessary deviations from truth significantly tarnishes the whole story.
No it doesn't
@@kbanghart Yes it does
@@michaeldoverna-ah!
@@petersone6172 Agreed. It came across as refreshingly accurate when first released but as time goes on more and more inaccuracies emerge and hatchet jobs on soldiers reputations whether intentional or not is unedifying.
Now we are questioning Winters mindset towards the series and his attitude towards his fellow paras. Something we wouldn't have dreamed of a couple of years ago. If it gets much worse we will have trouble telling truth from lies.
@@michaeldover nope. Lot of fans still love the show
Even your immediate family have completely different recollections of an event. Every Thanksgiving dinner the stories change over 30 years. I can just imagine the accuracy of accounts of events 50 plus years later among 20 different men during the heat of battle.
Brother you have me stumped. I must confess that I’ve never been one to toot my own horn so I’m at a loss for words. That being said you’ve done a great job at keeping this topic sane. 👊🏻
Thanks mate
One of the less talked about problems in the series is the depiction of the British tank commander in Neunen. In the series he comes off as a hapless buffoon that wouldn't shoot through a building to kill an armoured vehicle that is threatening to kill him and his men.
In reality the man this character is based on was a highly experienced and capable tanker who was in combat long before many of the easy company guys had even enlisted and started running up that mountain. He fought through North Africa, Sicily, Italy and Normandy before meeting his untimely end in The Netherlands. The real story is that he and the other tanks in his troop were supporting the infantry across some open ground in front of the village where there was no cover. He then got hit by fire from the village and he and his driver were killed. The other three crewmen made it out alive. He was highly capable and respected and I think it's a real shame that American ww2 shows feel the need to make the British look bad.
Some time after this, Winters directed another tank crew to try to flank a German tank and they were blown away. They all made mistakes at times.
I agree. Whilst not negating the bravery of this group, it concerns me when they are so lionised - they were just one group out of thousands - all equally doing their duty - and should be remembered in that context. My mother - an army driver in the ATS during the war - would often recount how us Brits fought alone for 4 years with no support and how pleased everyone was when the ‘Yanks’ arrived - and how good and fit they looked compared to the exhausted Brits. ( Let’s no forget that whilst Lend Lease was a godsend, and did help enormously, we had to pay for it and were still paying it back until a few years ago when we finally repaid it, unlike the Germans who got post war support for free )
Let’s not also forget that the phrase ‘band of brothers’ came from Shakespeare’s Henry V and his speech to the troops before the battle - so it refers to the English!
We remain grateful for the sacrifice of all, from wherever they came, and in that we don’t forget the sacrifice of those from the USA. In fact there is a website, South West Heritage Airfield trust , and we also maintain a museum in an original restored Nissan hut at Smeatharpe in Devon ( better known as RAF Uppottery, from when the 101st flew on D day) plus a brick original sentry box devoted as memorial to those lost - all remembered by name - as well as a further museum at Dunkeswell ( still an active private aerodrome ) which was a US navy station ( and where Joseph Kennedy served for a while). We remember them all.
@@bethzolin6046 All I'll say about that is it is Hollywood and many of us in the USA would be glad to trade Hollywood to any other country for about $100 dollars, redeemable in any currency you want it translated to 😊
@bethzollin6046 ---> Your post / idea is that of many British folks. The American view of things is different. On December 7th, 1941 we were attacked in the Pacific Ocean region by Japan... NOT Germany or Italy or Rumania or Hungary. The next day thousands of American men were lined up outside Recruiting Stations across the land.
They wanted revenge against the murderous, raping, nasty Japanese that had set Asia and much of the Pacific ablaze.
Instead,,,, the big-wig idiots in Washington D.C. (who were friendly with the communists in Moscow, U.S.S.R.) decided to make the main fight against the European Axis powers instead of focusing on the fight against the barbarous, psychotic Japanese.
My own Dad had just purchased a 1941 Pontiac car in November..... He went to the local Recruiting station not long after the attack on Pearl Harbor and Wake Island & the Philippine Islands and joined the U.S. Army Air Corps (later name changed to U.S.A.A.F.) and his unit wound up in North Africa, then stationed at Sudbury in East Anglia, England with a B-24 Bomber group flying over Nazi-occupied Europe. He remembered seeing signs saying: "There are only 3 things wrong with the Yanks: They are Overpaid, Oversexed, and Over here". Thankfully not all Brits were so ungrateful ----> Cambridge University donated land for the American cemetery and many, many uniformed American Air Corp members are buried there in England.... they never got back "Stateside". That brand new Pontiac my Dad had purchased in November 1941 was "cannibalized" by my Grandpa because there were not new cars or tires for years in the U.S.A.. When Dad got discharged from Active Duty and made it back home.... He said: Dad: What happened to my car?!? Granpa said: "Well I figured since you left us, and that you would get dead over there, I would use your tires because we could not get any more." My Dad was NOT happy with that answer.
As for "Lend-Lease" payments: You forgot to mention a couple/few things: (btw - I suspect your U.K. teachers never told you).... that before the U.S.A. entered WW2, a supposed Pacifist (F.D. Roosevelt) GAVE the Royal Navy 50 U.S. Navy Submarine Destroyer ships (commonly called "Destroyers") so that the Royal Navy could protect the Atlantic convoys. Do you think that the U.K. should have gotten free stuff from the "Neutral" U.S.A. taxpayers?
U.S. citizens had NO new cars or tires from December 1941 until 1946. EVERYTHING was built/made for the U.S. military and allies of the U.S.A., especially Britain. Gasoline (petrol in Britain) was rationed even though the U.S.A. had oil wells and refineries. Horses & mules returned to plowing jobs because farm tractors ran on fuel, and almost all fuel was for the war effort. Singer sewing machine company started making pistols for the Army. Typewriter makers switched to making battle rifles. Ford motors in Michigan stopped making cars and began making B-24 bombers and the R.N. and R.A.F. used those B-24 aircraft to look for Nazi U-boats.
{Finland was the first and for decades the only country to ever repay the U.S.A. for WW2 supplies/ help. Decades later P.M. Tony Blair finished paying the U.S. for the loans and massive amounts of supplies of WW2.}
My mother told us that the U.S. citizens had no butter for years because F.D.R. was sending butter to the U.K.. She and other Americans were told to use shortening grease for a butter substitute and put yellow food dye in it so housewives could fool their husbands when they had bread. (That idea was from socialist slime Eleanor Roosevelt via her radio talks.)
I don't hate the U.K. at all. My Paternal Grandma was born in Cheshire, England. Her family came to the States in 1911 when she was 11. Other side came from Oxfordshire in the 1800's. What I do not like is the Brits thinking that the U.S. taxpayers should give you folks free stuff in two world wars. My Dad's unit (The U.S.A. 8th Air Force) had the highest casualty rates of any U.S. military Unit in WW2. They were the ones stationed in Britain and made bombing runs over Nazi-occupied Europe. One out of five men in the U.S. 8th A.F. never made it home again.
This last line / thought is for you and all the other British folks I have encountered on the internet forums/ sites over the years that complain about how American movie makers show WW2 films/movies/TV shows: You British folks have movie cameras, movie actors, movie studios, directors, writers, producers, special effects people so why not make a movie / TV series that you folks will like?
{[ IMO - if the American Army and Generals not been in France in 1944 Montgomery and his British soldiers would still have been fighting Hitler's boys until 1950 --- something.]}
Of course, IF the U.K. movie makers would ever make such a movie(s) / TV series, they will have to include a CC option so that we in the U.S. can understand the horrid Cockney noise and unintelligible Scots tongues.
My Grandma from Cheshire and her brother spoke clearly. She would pronounce every letter in the word "vegetables" - 😊 She could quote a page from a Shakespeare play and I could understand her just fine. Half of the stuff shown stateside on P.B.S. or I.T.V. from the British Isles is gibberish, such as anything from Keith Richards or some soccer fan hooligan.
You make an excellent point. My Dad was a WW2 vet and ALWAYS stated that the real heroes were the Brits and Empire forces as they carried the War by themselves for so long. The Rangers were trained, in large measure, by British Commandos. He expressed admiration for the Gurkhas, Tommies, Kilties (Scottish forces), and the Commandos. You guys sunk the Bismack, won the Battle of Britian and survived a starvation diet.
I believe that Allied forces were ordered NOT to destroy buildings if it could be helped. Queen Wilhemina had set up her government in exile in Britian, as I'm sure you know.
That also must have played a part.
Just spitballing here, but I'd suggest that Winters - being in the latter part of his life and, as I understand it, suffering from Parkinson's - believed he couldn't fix it all. It's entirely possible he didn't read all of Ambrose's book. As the HBO series gathered steam, Winters started paying closer attention to the script and other information (still getting the Blithe situation completely wrong), but again, I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt. I don't believe there was any kind of quid pro quo for Winters' support of the series -- and the book had already been published.
What would be interesting to learn is determining how involved Winters was with Ambrose while Ambrose was writing his book. My bet is, not very.
I have often wondered if he really read the final edit of the book or the script for the series.
In subsequent interviews, Maj. Winters stated he hated the s*x and demanded it be removed but was ignored. He did read everything Ambrose wrote and he did correct the record with regards to Blythe and others in those interviews. He does speak slowly and thoughtfully, and I believe fairly. He was a Mennonite and took his responsibility to history with great seriousness and care. And yes, you can see the effects of Parkinson's on the face.
@@MARYREED-nh7gb Interesting. Based on your statement, it would appear that Ambrose ignored Winters' corrections. I'm not familiar with Ambrose's subsequent editions of the BoB book; perhaps he corrected the record there. But if he did, those corrections never made it into the series. Ambrose died in 2002 from lung cancer, IIRC, and it's entirely possible his own health issues shortly after the BoB series was shown in Sept. 2001 kept him from doing more.
It’s an amazing insight to the real story behind the series, and it’s great to see that someone has done something to rectify the historical issues that has plagued with the story of Dick Winters and the men of Easy Company.
I’ve watched it about every 6 months since it’s initial release on DVD, and still do so, but every time I seem to find out more and more inaccuracies with the story line which gives you a different perspective each and every time, however maddening or frustrating it may be.
Your research is remarkable and is a testament to the real portrayal of the men behind the characters and how they deserve to be treated with respect and honour, as well as their families who now bore the brunt of their legacies.
It’s terrible and inexcusable how Ambrose got it wrong with the poor research and how the reputations of some veterans are seemingly forever tainted in the eyes of the general public who are not historians.
I bought the book years ago but still haven’t read it as yet, but somehow I don’t think that I would really want to now…
Read it. It is fascinating to learn what those guys went through. While there are inaccuracies in the book, the main body of work holds up. The airborne troops saved thousands of lives at Normandy by sacrificing themselves to hold the Germans at bay behind Utah Beach and they staunched the German offensive at Bastogne through their bravery and tenacity. The Band of Brothers is a tribute to all of the foot soldiers who persevered through the European theater.
@@katazack Hi mate
Yes I’m hearing you, and I will do so now I’m retired.
I really thrive on WWII history and I did my short time in the Australian army over 40 years ago so I appreciate what those poor guys went through and were the lucky ones.
Thanks for your recommendation.
@@katazackDon't forget the elements of 10th Armored Div at Bastogne.
@@teller1290 Absolutely. Without the armor the infantry would have been overrun. It was an epic effort by them all. May they rest in peace.
Speirs cleared it all up with his conversation in the church.
Well, implicitly. He said something to the effect that there was some benefit to letting people believe that he had killed the prisoners. That implies that he didn't really do it, but that he avoided correcting those beliefs. Seems plausible to me. I came away from the series believing that Speirs didn't really kill the prisoners.
@@grizzlygrizzle Richard Winters stated Spiers admitted to it.
I heard a lecture at the WWII museum, New Orleans. The speaker included a section about Speirs. Ronald Speirs was furious because his first wife was described as an unfaithful wife. She wasn’t she had a son with Ron but divorced him because she didn’t want to live in the States. He was married several times but remained close to her and his son was an officer in the British army. Ronald served out his career as commander of Spandow prison.
There was more, there’s a book about him sold by the museum.
That was NOT Spears speaking. It was an actor reading lines written by AMBROSE.
@@hpharridan No one is, but he was a man who killed because he had a job to do, not because of anything else. If there is anyone who embodies the pure warrior, I will argue that Mr. Winters is that man.
On executing prisoners
My Pop was with the 30th Inf. 120th Regiment. After the Malmendy Massacre he said prisoners weren’t taken . Generally no quarter asked none given. He also said generally most histories were riddled with inaccuracies . He landed 6 days after D-Day and fought to the last month before the official surrender with the same outfit when he had enough points to go home. He had a Silver Star with OLC , Bronze Star, Purple Heart , CIB , and PresidentyUnit Citation for the Battle of Mortain.
In the Anthony Beevor book, once troops got wind of what the SS did and treated them accordingly. SS rarely surrendered any way. Many captured SS (rightly so) never made to camps in the rear.
It was official policy of some U.S. divisions to murder SS and paratrooper prisoners of war during the Battle of the Bulge. This is documented fact but as the Victor's write the history it us usually white washed away when the events of that time are being retold to the uninformed masses.
@@badlt5897 "Many captured SS (rightly so) never made to camps in the rear." Only a complete idiot devoid of integrity would condone warcrimes. You might also want to look up the meaning of the word "hypocrite" when you have a spare five minutes.
The Matthew settle interview and the “random drop in visit to speirs house is too good to pass on! I think Matthew wasn’t expecting for speirs to invite him in and offer him some coffee 🤣
Loved that story
Speirs is an Absolute Legend.
Speers is just a war criminal if he has shot a prisoner to death, there is nothing heroic about that, even if he is a liberator of France. And if you think that Speers is not a war criminal, then the American prisoners who were shot dead by the Germans in the battle for the Ardennes are not war criminals either. And if you think differently about that then there is something seriously wrong with you
@pirsensor1186 only the losing side commits war crimes. In the Pacific, our guys didn't try too hard to take prisoners. They all wanted payback for Pearl Harbor.
@@pirsensor1186I think that, and there's absolutely nothing wrong with me, which means that there is absolutely wrong with you. So there!
@littleguy6753 Don't think it's much to do with revenge for Pearl Harbor it's more about the japanese fighting to the death, pretending to be dead then shooting you in the back or detonating a grenade when you get near. It wasn't just the americans the british, Aussies, Kiwi's and Indians had the same attitude and Pearl Harbor was nothing to do with them.
@@pirsensor1186There's a difference between 3 guys not taking prisoners during and engagement for logistical reasons and rounding up dozens of prisoners to a rearward position to then shoot them all, taking the time to check that all were dead by shooting and bayoneting the bodies. Context kind of matters when you're invoking "war crimes"
Thank you for your video, that reestablishes the factual truth and gives credit where it belongs. I’ve lost a lot of respect for Ambrose whose books, including Band of Brothers I’ve bought and read. Discrepancies about battles and their statistics can be excused, but when it comes to individuals behaviour and history it’s hard to forgive, especially if one calls himself an historian!
There is a big difference in the circumstances between, "not taking prisoners' during battle and 'taking prisoners' during battle only to murder them later on. For some people it is politically and commercially advantageous to deliberately obfuscate and ignore those differences.
I'm glad you understand the difference because many don't.
Wartime cemeteries are full of innocent men caught up in a nasty war and paid the price of being in the wrong place at the wrong time.
I really appreciate your videos on Ambrose, the book, and the series.
Thank you, I appreciate that.
In the series, the shift from Speirs being a combat leader to someone on the hunt for loot was odd. We saw it immediately in The Last Patrol. Odd writing.
I didn't find it strange at all.
A lot of those vets mailed stuff home. Snafu collecting gold teeth in The Pacific wasn't something the writers came up with.
Imagine your life being put on hold for years because of some evil men doing evil crap. Imagine your pay wasn't very good and you saw more horror in one day than most people will ever experience in a lifetime. Now you might become a little bitter and jaded by that experience and you might correctly feel that you deserve more than a medal and a pay on the back. You deserve to get some of those lost years back at least monetarily and taking some loot from the enemy to sell or simply as a keepsake to remind you that all that horror was real, is justified. I would have taken both keepsakes and valuable loot. There's stories of soldiers who came back and used the wealth that they took to start businesses and eventually become very wealthy and frankly I didn't begrudge them that at all. If anyone deserves it it's the people who rushed their lives to stop the evil other men started.
@@ANIMOUS8 Do not justify evil behaviour
I saw it as extremely aggressive looting if there is such a term. If the man said he didn't agree with the act then even if he 'liberated' a few items it wouldn't have been as depicted. I am also yet to read any account of Speirs looting anything.
Sometimes Soldiers do things in War that they wouldn't normally do, just saying from Glasgow 🇬🇧💙😎
why is Europe different than the Pacific in our minds towards violence? Because they are white? I'm white, and a Marine, and when I hear the documented stories of how Some German units treated our prisoners, I find it amazing more of them weren't slaughtered. The SS was extreme, and they could be very brutal. The scenes depicted in Saving Private Ryan in the Beach Landing, show the brutality, the no quarter asked, and none given of that day. The fear, horrors, and anger seething all at once through men who just saw so many cut down and disfigured, it is no wonder men are savage to an enemy during and immediately after such battles. Also the fact that taking care of prisoners takes away men from the front, and when the fighting isn't over, and you need every man, things can happen. The savagery in island hopping campaigns of the Pacific war, fighting fanatics who refuse to surrender, and whose sole purpose is to kill as many of you as they can, those are a different set of rules to operate under. it's you and him, one lives, one dies, both do not walk away. So you fight to win, and you use whatever means necessary to make that happen. people back home have no idea just how savage it can be. They have no right to judge something they know nothing about. You have no frame of reference for it. These poor men were so beat upon, going through such savagery , there is no preparation for it mentally, training kicks in, and primal self preservation kicks in. it's a battle to keep one's sanity and not go completely cave man or insane. Many of those men were kept on the line for many times longer than peacetime doctrines taught. That pressure has to go somewhere. They have my utmost respect, European and Pacific veterans. They bore the brunt for us.
Morality aside, there are pragmatic reasons not to commit war crimes: What goes around comes around and an enemy who is reasonably sure they won't be harmed if they surrender is less likely to fight to the death.
1. Japanese brutality towards Allied POWs in WW2 bit them in the ass when the favour was returned.
2. In the Eastern Front of WW2, the losing Germans tended to fight to the death - taking as many Soviets down with them as they could. On the Western Front in the late stages of the war when they knew they were beat, knowing the Americans and British would treat them humanely, entire German units just surrendered. Hell, it's documented that German troops on the Eastern front started to desert and head West to surrender.
This saved untold numbers of American and British lives.
By the way, the main reason why the Japanese fought to the death was not purely because of religious devotion and a cultural aversion to surrender, but because they were informed by Japanese propaganda that a horrible fate would befall them if they surrendered. It was literally projection.
You're probably aware of that famous letter where the Japanese described US Marines on Guadalcanal as being monsters recruited from mental asylums and prisons for blood lust? It's often been misinterpreted to mean the Japanese thought the US Marines were tenacious in battle. No, it was propaganda to instil fear in Japanese troops. They'd have written that letter about literally any American unit.
That wounded Jap who'd blow himself up rather than let a US medic/corpsman treat him and be taken into custody was motivated to do that by fear he was going to be tortured to death anyway. If he'd known the truth, being interested in survival, he'd have surrendered, because the drive for human beings to survive is powerful. More powerful than any brainwashing, etc.
Every war is filled with myths, legends, lies, over simplifications, and misremembered actions. My father in-law, who had landed on D-Day and was later wounded in a motor attack about thee months later, loved the Series and thought it quite accurate to his own experience.
Just going on what you've said, it seems that Dick Winters was the main source for Ambrose's book, and the source deferred to when there were conflicting stories. He may have sat quiet, letting all the men speak at their first meeting with Ambrose, not saying anything, but following that up by sending Ambrose a written commentary and his own story would carry more weight than anything the men said, and he probably knew it. I would imagine any journalist putting together a book would take the written account Winters sent in and use it as the basis of the book, including notes taken during the meeting when necessary to flesh out characters. It seems like 90% of that book and series came straight from Winters, and if he were ever wrong, Ambrose and Hanks were there to take the blame.
He borrowed very heavily from Webster's book also. Lots of parallel material there
Speirs was a badass for sure. I have always been drawn to Carwood Lipton the most. I like how they portrayed his coming up from Toccoa to the end. Sergeants are so important for moral.
I think a matter overlooked given how impressive the production was, is the time it was made in, and the standards of that time regarding historical realism. Ultimately the show is a drama, a late 90s, early 2000s war drama, with real no contemporary comparisons. I can see very many people involved, looking at other productions of the time, and before, and easily concluding this far in a way more faithful and realistic than anything ever produced before. In a way it obviously is. As well, speaking of time, they had years to paint a good enough representation, from disorganized and often conflicting accounts, and we've been given decades to critique and reevaluate. Ultimately, for the time they had, for the time they where in, they made a production that was far in a way good enough, not above critique, reevaluation, and correction, but I'd say above vitriol. At times they guessed, made up, ignored, history, to facilitate creating a product within the constraints and reason of the period, they got so much closer to reality then any production has since, both in film and television.
I’m SO INTO THIS CHANNEL
GREAT HISTORY !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
When I build my
PLASTIC MODELS…..
I put it on Auto-Play and listen to what comes up in the rotation…..
YOU HAVE MY LIKE 👍
CHRIS 🇺🇸
I gotta get back into modeling. Thanks for unintentionally getting me to pick up an old hobby homie.
Hobby homie is fun to say.
Thanks from NH.
Gloo Troopers Rule.
@@HootOwl513
Always nice to see your comments !!!
Have a great week !!!!!
CHRIS
I thought I recognised your typing style!
Always nice to see a familiar name.
MODEL ON! (I think you can guess which channel we both watch. Lol)👍
@@acfnugget7880
WELL, I’m guessing ???????????
MAXSMODELS ?????
I do like using that phrase at other times when I comment on other channels…
No matter what, I always appreciate fellow modelers and their comments and opinions…….
and as always
MODEL ON……
CHRIS 🇺🇸
So many people in here calling Ambrose a historian. Historical fiction is what I would call it
We'd be better off if he hadn't written anything and Easy Company's story passed into obscurity.
Norman Dike was shows as useless officer when he had been decorated and his panic in episode wasnt cause he was shocked but because he was wounded. Was it again hollywood promoting Speirs over him to show how heroic someone else is and how bad someone other is? Almost like reality tv drama these days
That should’ve been December 21, 1944.as the date Dad was wounded at Bulligen. He spent many months recovering in the Valley Forge Military Hospital. He believed his eyes, face and shoulder injuries were from a German 88 tank shell. Very tiny pieces of metal found their way out of him for many years.
I’ll never trust Ambrose. I knew the man who exposed Ambrose for plagiarism, and Ambrose was not the only one. Hanks and Spielberg as well.
The thing about Speirs in the series is he kind of starts off as reckless. When they jump into Normandy and assault those artillery guns, Winters and Compton disapprove of how Speirs charges at the battery in a way that gets one of his men killed, needlessly it seemed. That has always struck me, especially since he becomes so revered by the end of the series.
Thank you for this every excellent review of Ambrose's book. I am NOT a fan of Ambrose as I consider him very sloppy and very willing to sacrifice the reputations of men he did not know for sensationalism (and to his personal "glory"). ANYONE can request information from the National Archives and get the facts.
My father was one of the Rangers who went up Point Du Hoc on D-Day, so for me it is very personal, especially as soooo many websites have complete bulls**t on them.
Dick Winters, in many interviews, tried to set the record straight with many of the guys. He ALWAYS tried to be very fair and balanced. You also could tell his love and respect for his men never wavered. And his men's love and respect for his, like wise.
Thank you for all the work you did on this site. If it means anything to you, I feel Major Winters would have been proud of your work.
Ralph Masterson, of Somerset Ohio, landed at D-day plus 3. He told me several times that they took no, none, nada, German prisoners. 😊
After 20 years of being told that BoB (the TV series) is the greatest and most respectful portrayal of war, and that Richard Winters is war's most noble warrior, it's alot to take in to find out that BoB is full of misrepresentations, and that Richard Winters is implied to be a cynical self promotionalist who willingly allowed his brothers to be slandered in order for his narrative to be portrayed.
The latter is particularly hard hitting and disturbing.
As the series progresses the troopers give their version of events, not only does the number of prisoners Speirs executes increase, from ten to twenty to over thirty, the prisoners themselves change. First they're Heer, regular army troops. They then become Waffen SS, as shown by the SS insignia on their collars. Which wouldn't be possible as the the first SS units did not arrive in the American sector until around 11 June 1944.
Which is accurate to how these types of rumors and foxhole stories are.
Also, the Spiers stories were imo portrayed as what they were - stories that were circulating amongst the men of Eeasy. The text of the show doesn’t claim them to be true. And Spiers character even comments on it and doesn’t deny or confirm them. So it seems to me it’s true to what the reality would have been amongst the Easy men.
The ' stories ' about shooting prisoners are largely true. The British even differentiated between surrendered prisoners and captured prisoners. They would use captured enemy soldiers to clear minefields.
It might be a little unrealistic to expect Dick Winters to have more say on a script than the studio or guys like Tom Hanks. (Thanks-I bought Spiers' book based on these videos.👍)
Its a great read
from idle curiosity to real interest and then appreciation: I have watched most of your content and am compelled to say this - the truth is not always pretty, sometimes it is ugly especially when it contradicts something we believe must be true - want to be true, when offered by people we like and respect. Good men were tradujuced by Ambrose and others allowed it to happen...absolutely NO ONE is perfect, even Dick Winters but human nature - being as vicarious as it is, will always leave the deserving in want of honesty and objectivity. RIP Spiers and all who were mischaracterised by those who should have called it out. Mr Hanks, your star has been dimmed IMHO
Thanks for your comment.
Albert Blithe was a career soldier. He wasn't a coward as portrayed in the series
He wasn't portrayed as a coward. He was portrayed as a man who slowly overcame his fear of death to function as a soldier. Nothing cowardly about that.
The scene where Tom Hardy is with the German lady and Speirs walks on in on them is hilariously bad. Yes fraternizing happened but I highly doubt any CO would have been that lenient, given he had just walked in on them. I read an account of an 82nd airborne officer locking 3 German women in a basement for a few days for fraternizing. Even Dick Winters wanted it out because it was in the most important episode, “Why We Fight”. According to Winters, Hanks won the argument and the scene stayed. Personally I don’t think Winters pushed back as much as he said he did because quite frankly it DID ruin that episode.
Ambrose is a hack. But so are Hanks and Spielberg. How many WW2 movies has he done? All of them good. None of them accurate.
In any case, this was a great video. Keep up the good work. You earned yourself a subscriber. Looking forward to more content.
It's a mini series, not a documentary.
Guys like Winters are often taken advantage of by writers, producers, and directors. Guys like Winters are most often told they have far more control and input than they ever really do.
The inaccuracies are sad, and regrettable.
However, the mini series really brought the story to an entire generation that might have otherwise been oblivious. And it will continue to do so.
Like anything else, it's a compromise, and a double edged sword.
Of course we wish it had been 100% correct. Nothing ever is.
No but there is no excuse for not getting the veterans stories correct.
Getting history “right” is difficult, but very important. War is hell. These men were doing there best under extreme pressure. There stories should be told accurately and with compassion by those who were not there.
David Kenyon Webster wrote a very good book titled "Parachute Infantry". People say its the source of inspiration for Band of Brothers, but i think Ambrose never read it.
A lot of Websters book is in Band of Brothers, as is Winters memoirs. Ambrose 'filled in' a lot of the gaps.
Its different look on things for sure, perhaps even "nuanced". Col Sink is certainly portrayed in a less flattering way; then again "The Last Patrol" more than hints to this.
Lets not forget the US troops who were murdered at Malmedy during the Battle of the Bulge. It was a nasty war during which killing your opponents was the rule. A lot of it occurred in the Pacific too, possibly more than happened in Europe.
My father was on Okinawa. From the very small snippets he told me many years ago, your assessment of the Pacific theatre is correct. It's not politically correct today, but the war in the Pacific was very much a race war. Not many of them surrendered, anyhow.
Wild Bill is from Philadelphia. That’s on the East Coast not the West Coast.
My guess is he may have relocated.
If its quoted by a vet, I don't change the wording.
I spoke to Malarkey about the Germansoldier. I am from Eugene, Oregon and found that scene interesting. He said it did happen but the man wasn't shot. Winters has stated that Speirs shot POW's. If you didn't see it, you shouldn't comment even if you are a famous war hero like Winters. And you are right , only a combat veteran can judge the actions of another. I would have done what Speirs did. It sucks but he had little choice. War sucks.
My Dad was in the 101st ABD, during ww2. He was never interested in talking about the war.
My father served in Holland in the Canadian army 25th RCA. He was quite familiar with 101st and easy. He had told me some of the stories the men of easy had shared on the ship coming home. Ambrose played fast and loose with events, my father had shared with me some of what he was told by them. He never liked to talk about the war really. He never mentioned combat on his end. The incident of Spiers shooting the sargent, was him pulling a gun on Spiers. The man blowing himself up with his own grenade was one he talked about, in the context of the chaos one goes through in war. Its a dirty business.
I loved the series and have watched it several times. ALL of those men, including Cpt, Sobel were heroes. They answered the call and so many made the ultimate sacrifice. Thank you for your service and God bless.
Officers have a long history of looking out for themselves.
While your points are well taken, in the end, it’s a huge project to undertake, both a book and a series, and there are so many things to get right that for the most part it’s impossible. You either demand it all be 100% perfect, which means it will never get made in the first place, or you do it and then have what normally happens, which is people point out what they got right, or not quite right, or wrong. Overall, Band of brothers is a fantastic story and we owe a thanks to Ambrose and Hanks for bringing it to life for those of us that were never there and could never be there. It’s like the movie Rudy. People say, “They never handed in their Jerseys!” They went to the old coach that was there and he said it wasn’t true. They said they needed something for the character to “overcome,” so the coach said okay. Sometimes not getting it 100% accurate can still get to the “truth” of the moment. It’s just what we have to live with when someone tells us a story.
The story was basically a rip off of “Currahee!: A Screaming Eagle at Normandy” by Donald R. Burgett. Currahee featured Alpha Co. 1/506th.
I’m not trying to minimize the exploits of Easy Co, or downplay the tremendous leadership of Dick Winters. Both stories deserve to be told.
My point is when I learned of Band of Brothers my mind went immediately to Burgett’s book. Then I realized BofB was written by Ambrose and I understood.
Don Burgett was a real hero. It was an honor to know him
@@ericgillingham3622Mr. Burgett’s four books are the best memoirs I have ever read.
My story is a rip off?
On June 8, 2001, I was on my honeymoon in Paris and met a member of Easy Company who was there to launch Band of Brothers. He was with two other younger men and they took our picture outside the Louvre with the Eiffel Tower in the background. After asking him about D-Day and the reunions taking place that week, the veteran told me something to the effect, "I told Ambrose I was not going to help him write his book, I'm writing my own." If he told me his name, I didn't commit it to memory, but after watching this and seeing the picture of Speirs and Winters together in 2001, I believe that it was Speirs who I met that day. Sure wish I took a picture of whoever that vet was, but I will say he had a sense of humor and was very nice to us.
That's a great story though I would say it was probably Buck Compton you met. He wrote his own memoirs and looked similar to Speirs in later life. Speirs didn't have anything to do with his own book and was only at the premier at Utah Beach.
@@War_And_Truth thank you, this helps me understand a bit more. It’s been 23 years and I didn’t even realize I met one of these guys until the series came out on HBO, so my memory of it is pretty bad. I assume Buck Compton didn’t work with Ambrose either? Do you think he could have been in France for the D-Day reunions in June 2001 and been at that June 6th ceremony in Normandy? Whoever this guy was had been traveling with members of his church, that’s another detail I remember.
So,- a soldier accused of war crimes in the series script, won't have anything to do with the series describing these crimes? What a surprise!
Nobody (except on youtube) ever accused Speirs of being a war criminal. He was concerned however that after he was shown shooting POW's in a way which made him look like a cold blooded killer he could be arrested while in Europe.
If you watch and listen to Ed Shames take on the War namely when they parachuted into Normandy June 6th, it was he who along with some soldiers looking for their assembly point, asked if any of them had a coat to block out his flashlight while he used his compass to locate their destination not Winters.
Rudolf Heß war der Kämpfer für den Frieden. Vergiss das nie!
Absolutely loved BOB and Saving Private Ryan. My own father was a Normandy Veteran with the 4th Infantry landing on Utah Beach but I was too young to ever ask him about it before he died. If you have the inclination, read Parachute Infantry by David Kenyon Webster. He played a fairly prominent role in the series and this is a compilation of his letters home and his memoir after getting home. It lines up pretty well with the series and perhaps Ambrose read it before making the series. Webster died in 1961.
I have Websters letters from before Normandy which weren't published in the book. I will be posting those videos in the near future.
It is said about biography that each is an instant myth. How many works on Lincoln have been produced, but it is pretty certain that if we were able by some means to meet the actual man, he would not be the man of legend.
Winters respected all is men. I think Ambrose took the liberty to fill the blanks in. Total respect to all winters men.
At Normandy, the order was to take no prisoners because of the importance of quickly reaching objectives.
The false information about Blithe seems most inexplicable. A simple search of his service record might’ve been in order.
As for Spiers executing prisoners: It became widely know that the Germans had tortured and murdered American prisoners, so a violent backlash resulted in the US Army response to this with several incidents of retribution against German POWs.
Ambrose in later years was found to hire ghost writers that carried out very sloppy or no research in their work. He was also guilty of a great deal of fabrication in his numerous works for simple greed in selling his books. For a great set of D-Day and related battles, see Joseph Balkoski's books for their well-regarded accuracy and coverage of that part of the war.
A lot of shit talk circles within the platoons, mostly it's not diabolical or meant to tarnish anyone's reputation, but in banter and joking. Problem is this - A civilian catches wind of these things and blows it to hell out of proportion. I believe that's exactly what happened here - and it was embellished further in a screenplay for dramatic effect.
Having served in the Army 1970-1996, 2nd ID, 3rd ID, 82nd Abn, and 5th Special Frcs Grp, I can say without reservation that you are 100% correct. Those who have not served (at least in my experience in infantry) just do not--cannot--understand.
Great point.
@@4325air Well, those of us who served, know this. In this case, the young troopers just added to Speirs exploits putting him into the badass, not to be messed with stratosphere. And like most, once he caught wind of it he laughed and brushed it off- at the time.
@@RW4X4X3006 Exactly!!
If I am not mistaken Ambrose was accused of plagiarizing excerpts from the book of Thomas Childers, PhD from his book “Wings of Morning” into Ambrose’s book “Wild Blue Yonder”. That should tell you something.
Yes there were a few issues with that I believe.
I dunno why Blithe dying would be tarnishing to his reputation.
Because he fought with distinction in Korea and still served after that conflict as well. so you are basically erasing that service killing him off 20 years earlier. His family were very upset about it and that's good enough for me.
It's a huge slap in the face for man to have such an extensive military service record and to have died while on active duty to incorrectly state that he died in 1948 when he was alive and well.
a sa former NCO It is typical officer behavior even a beloved officer. We are not treated the same, from the brass down, expendable to the mission. In this case the "story"
Ambrose was a best a lazy, but prolific, writer and historian. That's a bad combination. But his numerous shortcomings were not obvious in the early 1990s. These issues were fairly well known by 1998 but seem to have been disregarded by those involved with the miniseries. Subsequent books by surviving veterans and their families shed some light on other points of view but there is a lot of bad research and storytelling in Band of Brothers and it casts doubt on some of his other work as well. But it will hard to get further details at this point since all these vets and Ambrose are gone now.
I’ve studied history all my long life. I’ve visited and known veterans from WW1-Afghanistan. What I’ve learned is that memories vary from perspective, that is, events in the first person are told to others who were part of an event but in a different vantage point and different experiences. Often 2nd and 3rd person understanding turns into first person narrative that is historical fiction rather thanks historical reality.
I have watched Band of Brothers a dozen times. I think it’s good far outweighs its inaccuracy. Probably would be a good ideas for Tom Hanks to explain the importance of historical fiction when making a mini series or movie. There are certain things that must take place in order to capture and keep control over the minds and hearts of the audience.
I think the books and the series should contain a note up front stating some artistic license has taken place to make this story suitable for entertainment.
At this time the author and the soldiers who lived through these times are all dead. All we can do is look at what evidence we have that is factual and then realize the rest may or may not be exactly what happened.
I know my stories of my youth are very different when told by my parents. The look at me and say, what planet were you on… and so say the same to them.
My Grandfather was a WW2 101st/17th Airborne veteran and growing up he talked a lot about the war and his service in WW2 and after. ( he was career military) . I remember Ambrose on The World at War growing up and thinking as a kid something was off with him. He never was at any of the 101st reunions that I went to with my Grandfather growing up and I knew little of him when his book came out. I just remember many WW2 paratrooper vets the 101st not having much care for him when BOB came out . I also had many head scratching moments with BOB. I really enjoyed the series but I also knew that nothing is 100% accurate but as time went on and the more I was able to see and confirm about Ambrose the more I disliked him and the more I saw what a fraud he really was.
Having retired from the Army after 28yrs service in the infantry, I have seen "believed myths" retold and retold to the point of everyone believing the myth. Even people who never served with the man the story was about, new guys got it absorbed into their reality. I am sure they would pass a polygraph. I recall one story about an alleged suicide and the circumstances relating to it. First, the suicide never happened. The soldier was suicidal, yes, but was evacuated to the medical folks as he should have been. He never did kill himself. He was chaptered out of the Army under medical reasons. The ill soldier did not ever return to the unit prior to his separation from service and his redeployment back to the states. I know about this story firsthand. I was the company commander at the time the events took place. A Captain, a commander, does not have any soldier leave or arrive without the requisite paperwork, period. You must review all the documents for accuracy, sign everything, then it is reviewed at every command level up the chain. In the end, the strange details of the myth came to my ears. The next day I had an all-hands formation. I told them the facts. I also used it to counsel them on suicide prevention and awareness and what to do about it, how to handle it. Lastly, I told them if they were going to talk about this incident, get it right.
I bring this up because I was an older guy when I was commissioned. I had 8yrs prior enlisted time. I know from both sides how a young troop is impressionable and how age and experience makes one less so. I think some of what I explained is responsible to a point. As for historical data, like date of death, etc. that stuff can be established by an historian. I have a Masters in history.
Ambrose has been accused of plagiarism in at least two of his books.
At least 6 according to Forbes.
Blyth. Not many understand the Blyth persona buildup. Why he was depicted that way for one scene
When Winters motivated him awake while Blyth was in his foxhole.
Blyth stood up. Took one shot and killed a German Paratrooper. One who had climbed the mountain and picked the flower worn on his lapel, that grew near the top, above the tree line. Proving how far up he had climbed. Many had failed.
So. Our WORST was able 1:34 to KILL THEIR BEST. !
Never let the truth interfere with a good story.
Ambrose not bothering to substantiate rumors and 2nd or 3rd hand stories? Now there's a shocker
It is difficult to get it very accurate and I personally didn't have any "ill will" towards anyone in easy company after watching BoB multiple times. I consider them all heroes doing what they had to do in THE most difficult and dangerous time in all of humanities' history. Heck, even Sobel played his part and despite being a total a**, went to war and did his duty. You get on social media and all you can think is 'how far we have come from the greatest generation'.... these people actually parachuted into enemy held positions, charged fixed machine guns bunkers and held the line while sitting in frozen trenches while surrounded and starving. It is both inspiring and humbling. Stories like these and others (frozen Chosen... so many more) should NEVER be forgotten.
Never read any book from Ambrose yet, but I always have a military history read going.
Long ago, the opinion was that he was a sloppy writer.
Several years ago (and well after his passing), my boss and I visited Mr. Ambrose's home in Helena, Montana on a paint/wallpaper job. Modest but beautiful place. Got to peek in his old office and sit in the parlor. That's about it. Shrug. Kind of a bystander-brush-with-greatness but tried to imagine him writing in there and was affecting enough.