On this topic, Beethoven's 4rd piano concerto (Movement III, the first episode) sounds a lot like the Ode to Joy theme! A miraculous concerto all around
I think it’s fair to say that Mozart wrote some of the best melodies of all time. Even though some are very simple, they’re incredibly catchy and just get stuck in your brain. Some of my favorite Liszt pieces are his reminiscences on opera works. The way he takes a theme and combines it with another then expands on it is amazing. In my opinion no one is better at those types of work than Liszt
The import of that Mozart piece is, Misericordia Domini becomes Ode to Joy - The Lord's Mercy being the Wondrous Potential of Human(ist) Joy! I don't agree about the Dvořák slow movement, - tunes are naturally quite similar to each other, usually - but the opening to the scherzo is undeniably conscious.
It's actually very improbable that Beethoven based the opening motif from his Eroica around the overture to Mozart's 'Bastien und Bastienne'. The youthful opera had no certified premiere during his lifetime (the story of it being produced in the garden of Dr. Franz Mesmer was only brought to the light in an unverified account of Georg Nikolaus von Nissen), and the first known performance was on 2 October 1890. It fell out of the repertoire almost completely, receiving its first complete, date-verified recording in 1952 under Sir John Pritchard on the Philips label.
yeah, and it's not like an impossible motif to come upon, it's pretty simple and likely both came up with it separately. A better example is how don giovanni influenced the moonlight sonata first movement, and there is evidence as beethoven did sketches of the death scene for piano.
@elmerglue21 Same with the 'Ode to Joy' theme. It's a relatively easy and logical passage that Beethoven could've easily just picked up by himself. For example, Mozart reused the theme again in an inverted form in his aria 'Martern aller Arten" from Die Entführung aus dem Serail. Despite the initial popularity of the opera in Vienna, it later also fell out of the repertoire and it's unlikely that Beethoven would've heard it. Just goes to show that people will dig too deep into something, apart from when the evidence of influence is present.
I agree with your assessment of Bastien and Bastienne, but the popularity of Doktor und Apotheker and Dittersdorf's proximity to Haydn makes it unlikely that Beethoven would not have been familiar with at least its overture. The theme is almost identical to that in the Choral Fantasy.
All composers stole ideas from their musical heroes till this day, is called inspiration and influence, Mozart "stole" many ideas from Bach and others, Bach stoled some ideas from Vivaldi and other composers he admired, etc, etc, if we use that logic, the only original tune it would be the first beats of rythm of the first caveman, but even him probably copied those beats hearing them in the nature. The thing here is that a great composer not only "stole" that ideas, but imrprove on them and make them their own, with their own personal feeling and style. In this particular case Mozart used that melody in a very subtle and humble way that was forgotten in time, but Beethoven used the same melody in a epic and majestic way, with a different feeling, and the new version was so strong that today is the anthem of the EU, and even trascended to be the anthem of mankind.
I feel like I have to mention Alkan’s Op. 13 No. 3, which falls in the category of “way too similar to not be referencing it, but we don’t know for sure”
so, is it just me, or in Rzewski's Winnsboro Cotton Mill Blues, when the more traditional chords start playing, I hear a direct lift from Rach's 2nd, and halfway thru after the roar, i hear a lot of Rhapsody in Blue.
I saw your reddit post on the liszt difficulty rankings, and im confused why you put reminiscences de norma so low. Shouldn't it be as difficult as the rest of the reminiscences? Or at the very least a level higher than it is already. You put it in the category as "hard as la Campanella" which I think is totally wrong, it's 3x longer than la Campanella and requires a much much higher degree of musicality. Other than that I kind of agree with the ranking but on un sospiro, shouldn't it be level 5-6?
Norma is a level above la campanella, I'd agree with that. It's harder than the shorter reminiscences (except robert le diable) but easier than all the longer ones pretty much
8:53 or as Steve Reich said, steal from the best (meaning Bach) -- this whole video is great, but the ending is fun ruclips.net/video/creTXfBzjBg/видео.htmlsi=1TrYhKsD3Jxz_dUz&t=338
On this topic, Beethoven's 4rd piano concerto (Movement III, the first episode) sounds a lot like the Ode to Joy theme! A miraculous concerto all around
Now i cant unhear the ode to joy theme in the New World
0:59 "This entire passage has been stolen" - Beethoven's just like me frfr
Charles Ives directly quotes the "Ode to Joy" theme (among other things) in his String Quartet No. 2, Mvt. II.
Great video! Never realised the Dvorak - Schubert connection
Mahler in turn used the Brahms' theme as opening to his 3rd symphony.
Correct!
I think it’s fair to say that Mozart wrote some of the best melodies of all time. Even though some are very simple, they’re incredibly catchy and just get stuck in your brain. Some of my favorite Liszt pieces are his reminiscences on opera works. The way he takes a theme and combines it with another then expands on it is amazing. In my opinion no one is better at those types of work than Liszt
agree with mozart, disagree with liszt
The import of that Mozart piece is, Misericordia Domini becomes Ode to Joy - The Lord's Mercy being the Wondrous Potential of Human(ist) Joy!
I don't agree about the Dvořák slow movement, - tunes are naturally quite similar to each other, usually - but the opening to the scherzo is undeniably conscious.
It's actually very improbable that Beethoven based the opening motif from his Eroica around the overture to Mozart's 'Bastien und Bastienne'. The youthful opera had no certified premiere during his lifetime (the story of it being produced in the garden of Dr. Franz Mesmer was only brought to the light in an unverified account of Georg Nikolaus von Nissen), and the first known performance was on 2 October 1890. It fell out of the repertoire almost completely, receiving its first complete, date-verified recording in 1952 under Sir John Pritchard on the Philips label.
yeah, and it's not like an impossible motif to come upon, it's pretty simple and likely both came up with it separately. A better example is how don giovanni influenced the moonlight sonata first movement, and there is evidence as beethoven did sketches of the death scene for piano.
@elmerglue21 Same with the 'Ode to Joy' theme. It's a relatively easy and logical passage that Beethoven could've easily just picked up by himself. For example, Mozart reused the theme again in an inverted form in his aria 'Martern aller Arten" from Die Entführung aus dem Serail. Despite the initial popularity of the opera in Vienna, it later also fell out of the repertoire and it's unlikely that Beethoven would've heard it. Just goes to show that people will dig too deep into something, apart from when the evidence of influence is present.
I agree with your assessment of Bastien and Bastienne, but the popularity of Doktor und Apotheker and Dittersdorf's proximity to Haydn makes it unlikely that Beethoven would not have been familiar with at least its overture. The theme is almost identical to that in the Choral Fantasy.
The Alberti bass when played slowly sounds a lot like ode to joy
many brain cells gained thanks to this video
You're welcome
All composers stole ideas from their musical heroes till this day, is called inspiration and influence, Mozart "stole" many ideas from Bach and others, Bach stoled some ideas from Vivaldi and other composers he admired, etc, etc, if we use that logic, the only original tune it would be the first beats of rythm of the first caveman, but even him probably copied those beats hearing them in the nature. The thing here is that a great composer not only "stole" that ideas, but imrprove on them and make them their own, with their own personal feeling and style.
In this particular case Mozart used that melody in a very subtle and humble way that was forgotten in time, but Beethoven used the same melody in a epic and majestic way, with a different feeling, and the new version was so strong that today is the anthem of the EU, and even trascended to be the anthem of mankind.
I feel like I have to mention Alkan’s Op. 13 No. 3, which falls in the category of “way too similar to not be referencing it, but we don’t know for sure”
Good catch, never heard that Alkan piece but yes a clear homage to Ode to Joy
That’s a great video!
😍🙏👌❤
Great video!
yoooo ditters von dittersdorf guess who shares a birthday with him
so, is it just me, or in Rzewski's Winnsboro Cotton Mill Blues, when the more traditional chords start playing, I hear a direct lift from Rach's 2nd, and halfway thru after the roar, i hear a lot of Rhapsody in Blue.
cool beans
Yo that was the internet password of the cafe i uploaded this video in
😅
@@calebhu6383😮
I saw your reddit post on the liszt difficulty rankings, and im confused why you put reminiscences de norma so low. Shouldn't it be as difficult as the rest of the reminiscences? Or at the very least a level higher than it is already. You put it in the category as "hard as la Campanella" which I think is totally wrong, it's 3x longer than la Campanella and requires a much much higher degree of musicality. Other than that I kind of agree with the ranking but on un sospiro, shouldn't it be level 5-6?
Norma is a level above la campanella, I'd agree with that. It's harder than the shorter reminiscences (except robert le diable) but easier than all the longer ones pretty much
Could you continue the brams series perhaps with Rachmaninoff
8:53 or as Steve Reich said, steal from the best (meaning Bach) -- this whole video is great, but the ending is fun ruclips.net/video/creTXfBzjBg/видео.htmlsi=1TrYhKsD3Jxz_dUz&t=338
4:55 Isn't S. 464 no.9 mvt.4?
Yes
5:49 *in excelsis deee-o* lol
does that mean Bach stole a lot of ideas from composers before him?
Even Mozart stole ideas from Bach and others, all composers do it till this day, is inevitable.
@ im saying did bach do that with composers before him