Every time I help someone with a transmission swap and talk them into a dogbox, I show them this video. -- There are four things to keep in mind when you go to a dog box. 1: Get the lightest flywheel you find. A heavier flywheel will hit the dog lugs like a monster impact wrench. 2: Get the lightest clutch disc you can find, preferably with a solid hub organic disc. A sprung hub will preload the dog teeth and make it hard to shift, so a solid hub will help you here. 3: Consider a bronze pilot bushing. A bronze bushing creates enough drag to rotate the input shaft, but not enough drag to impede any of the other processes. Sometimes, you don't have enough room to use hard clutch line, so the flex of a braided line can cause some drivability problems. A bronze pilot bushing instead of a roller pilot bushing can help you here. 3.5 -- A bronze bushing on a synchromesh creates a slight drag that the synchronizers have to defeat. 4: You can get great shift quality by partially squeezing the clutch. A 6-finger dog ring with a 1200 RPM speed difference between the gears to be changed will create 7200 opportunities per second to shift.
Thanks for sharing. Years ago, at a Skip Barber school to get my license, they described their transmission as a 'straight cut, non-synchro' tranny. They taught us how to double-clutch on the down shifts. Took a little bit but I got the hang of it. Ever since then, I've always kept on my mind to 'spin the input shaft' if it doesn't want to go in gear (1st or R).
It always occurred to me it should be shifted by the hand like you would shift a motorcycle with your foot. They too are straight cut dog ring and have been quick shifted for years. Quick and Diliberate.
Similar to a standard box, you just have to shift it fast and with a purpose. The downshifts are where it takes a bit more practice! You're right on the floating gears - timing is key!
Pretty much sold now on getting a samsonas dogbox modified zf for my e46 m3 now. The getrag on it is tired, and you can’t purchase any replacement parts. You basically have to buy new which is the same as a dogbox h pattern trans. Or gamble with getting a used one. It looks like The driving experience has to be engaging on the track. Just watched your in car race videos and it seems like a fun and engaging experience with that trans. The shifts seem so crisp.
Is it even possible to still miss shift during race conditions with this method? Let’s say going from 3rd to 4th. Would you get blocked out if your mistakenly tried to shift into 2nd if your leaving 3rd at 8500 rpm. My thought process is that 2nd gear would be too fast and the worse thing would be damaging the dog rings. Verification would be great.
@@kpwr6197 Missed shifts are still possible. The transmission has a more positive feel when going into gear - It is more "mechanical" feeling and feedback is quick and positive. Can you still go from 3rd to 2nd? Yes. The dogs are not like a synchro and you are able to get it in the wrong gear. The worst damage will be over-raving your engine.
Great explanation. Seems really easy on up shift. On down shift not quite as easy. All happens so fast. So its gear in, neutral, blip and in whith the gear?
Downshifts are all about timing. There is a split second as you pass through neutral that you need to blip the throttle. Until that comes easy to you, you can pause in the middle of the shift, blip then put it in the next gear down at the right revs.
The only thing that confuses me about dog boxes are motorcycles and clutched downshifting. If you need the clutch to be engaged in order to synch the two dog speeds, then why can you downshift WITH the clutch on motorcycles? Im able to clutchless up and downshift on motorcycles, and i always understood why that works, i just dont understand how clutched downshifting doesnt grind your gears if the mainshaft gear isnt being accelerated to match the output shaft due to being disengaged from the engine
Awesome video! In a squential dog box, how do you perform blip on a downshift (while braking)? Do you press on the brake with left foot while blip/downshift at the same time?
Good example of upshifting with the Dog-Box. But the downshifting was less clear. When downshifting, say you are at the end of the straight and your car is at 8,000rpm in fourth gear. You brake and the revs drop to 5,000. Do you then put the box into neutral, blip the throttle, and then shove it into the lower gear? (All without the clutch and super fast of course, so it just looks like a blur.) Or after the revs drop to 5,000 in fourth gear do you blip the throttle with it still in gear, and then downshift to third? (To me, this option doesn't make any sense as the revs wouldn't go up very much after the blip as the car would still be in gear. The car would also lurch forward really fast as you blipped the throttle.)
Good point I should have been more clear on - it is a bit of timing here as the blip needs to happen in the middle of the shift (neutral) to get the revs up to where the rotation of all the gears are at the same speed. This takes time and is often rough for a while, but with a little patience and some slower downshifts, you will find the rhythm. After a while it just happens naturally and the downshift speed increases.
@@jpm Ah-ha. Thanks for the reply. Also, since Dog-Boxes don't have synchros, what would happen if you didn't rev-match properly and shoved the box into its next lower gear? Would you even be able to get it to go in smooth, if at all?
It is possible to simply jam it into gear with a dog box, but the blip will ease that transition. Keep in mind that any rev limiter will not stop a downshift over-rev, so you still need to use your best judgement.
Wow... Love this. I gotta get me one of Theeeese Lol. So can these be custom built for any application including wrong wheel drive? Is a core transmission required to build one and do you guys do this in house? I don't think my stock trans is shot, more like possibly the output shaft bearings are on the way out, but uncertain; however, at over 500 hp and tq to the wheels, it likely wouldn't last long anyways so I think something like this would be a good option if such a thing is even available for my application.
There are many options and it can be a new case, or new gears in an old case, depending on the direction you go. I will say that a dog box in a street car may not be the best answer. If you are looking for a gear box that can handle the power, there are probably better options that keep the ease of use a priority, assuming it is for the street.
@@jpm Yeah it's kind of a street car but I think it'd be fine... I shift much the same as you do in the vid anyways, just at a stoplight would hafta get it in gear properly is all. Oh and there aren't any options for my platform other than stock f35 (if you can find one), f23 (no LSD, and dumb gearing) or an f40 6spd (as costly as a dog box I'm sure, 4-6k not including a new shifter n cable setup)
If you shift a dog box RIGHT, parts will last you a long while. The dog rings are your wearable part in that case. Watch this video here - ruclips.net/video/aU1Ol5ZgRnI/видео.html and learn the right way to do it and you would be golden. Do it wrong and your dogs will take the brunt of it and wear fast.
@@jpm hi, thanks for the video, I've tried to do this with my samsonas sequential when my clutch slave cylinder failed, on upshift all is good, as I have ignition cut, on the downshift I tried to blip and push the lever down at the same time but all I got was grinding, is it different on a sequential? I've driven h pattern cars with synchros when they have had blown slave cylinders with the same method no problems but didn't seem to work on my sequential, any input? Thanks
@@SR22VET-S15 no, a sequential is the same and actually should be easier because you don't have gates to cross. Blip and shift simultaneously and it should be butter smooth.
That's a double sided answer. It can be harder on the disc spline for sure if you're not matching revs well but the material on the face should last longer because you're never disengaging the pressure plate.
A dog box has straight-cut (or square) teeth on the transmission gears as opposed to teeth that come to a point. A square is much stronger and allows you to shift quickly and force the gear change. A standard gear in a synchro box can do the same, but is more fragile and your technique better be perfect. The clutch isn't needed because of this, once you are rolling.
@@jpm There is abolutely no technical reason why a dog box requires straight cut gears. In fact a helical gear set is STRONGER on the gear mesh. The reason helical gears are not used in high horsepower cars is that a helical gear set causes laterial loads on the gearbox shafts (ie trying to spit gears out of the end of the transmission). Its simply that straight cut and dog engagement are both desirable in a race car. Its worth noting for people not familliar with a gearbox internals that ALL gears are ALWAYS engaged. When you "Change" gear, you are simply transfering the power through the gear that has the dog locked in.
Can you program some ECU's to blip the transmission automatically on a downshift. I know I'm comparing apples to oranges but some newer manuals can do it. Best explanation on dog gears I've seen yet BTW. Thanks.
Some ECU's do this, most don't. This isn't a hidden feature in the software or something that can be downloaded. It either will or it won't. Thanks for the compliment - I am just trying to explain how I do things and am happy to help!
@@zoltrix7779 Mike of StanceWorks put one of those in his Honda K powered Ferrari 308. Shifter with a strain gauge built into the shift knob for just that purpose. He said it was like a $600 shift knob or something crazy like that.
On a dyno it seems easy to downshift by blipping the throttle but in real world applications won’t the car lurch forward when blipping without pressing the clutch? Under hard left foot braking the engine won’t rev up or blip??
thanks for sharing and showing how a dogbox has to be shifted right. I heard some theories on low speed dogboxes should be shifted slower, at faster speed the shift should be faster - what do you think about it? Also I have another question, how can I help to spin the input shaft for putting reverse gear on a sequential dogbox? Because there isn't this shift block feel (hope I can explain right), the lever goes in R but the gear is not selected, often on second attempt.
If the gear doesn't align, keep it out of gear, let off the clutch, go back on the clutch then shift. You are probably starting the car with your foot down on the clutch which is the way you should do it, just make sure to make the gearbox spin a little bit by letting off of the clutch before you shift
The work vans I use are either really worn synchros or regular dogboxes, thinking the former, they are the same deal. He even says in the video to let off the clutch gently while shifting in to 1st or reverse to move the input shaft.
my sychro trans sometimes wont go into reverse until I let the clutch bite a little and rotate the input shaft. Is my reverse gear syncromesh done for?
@@adematthewsracing my car is a 2015 european vw, I know that it has double syncros on two gears, one is the 1st gear, the other is either 2nd or reverse, not sure. nonetheless, it has at least one syncro on reverse
Why didn't you demonstrate using the clutch on the downshift. I hardly think you will be wanting to blip the throttle without the clutch on a downchange, you are likely to be hard on the brakes at the same time. Personally, I prefer sequential gearbox's on track car, it just makes the dogbox action more straighforward with a push/pull action. Accidental miss shifts, especially going down gears with a H pattern dogbox can be terrible. A 5th to 2nd can result in serious engine damage... that is if you have not had a compression lockup and put it into a wall!
With heel-toeing, you are hard on the brakes and easily able to blip the throttle on the downshifts. Some people do use the clutch on downshifts, but once you get the timing down, it will be a smooth shift. Sequential boxes are not allowed in my car classification, but yes, it does make things easier for sure. Seat time is the key to keeping everything as smooth as possible, including missed shifts!
Every time I help someone with a transmission swap and talk them into a dogbox, I show them this video.
-- There are four things to keep in mind when you go to a dog box.
1: Get the lightest flywheel you find. A heavier flywheel will hit the dog lugs like a monster impact wrench.
2: Get the lightest clutch disc you can find, preferably with a solid hub organic disc. A sprung hub will preload the dog teeth and make it hard to shift, so a solid hub will help you here.
3: Consider a bronze pilot bushing. A bronze bushing creates enough drag to rotate the input shaft, but not enough drag to impede any of the other processes. Sometimes, you don't have enough room to use hard clutch line, so the flex of a braided line can cause some drivability problems. A bronze pilot bushing instead of a roller pilot bushing can help you here.
3.5 -- A bronze bushing on a synchromesh creates a slight drag that the synchronizers have to defeat.
4: You can get great shift quality by partially squeezing the clutch. A 6-finger dog ring with a 1200 RPM speed difference between the gears to be changed will create 7200 opportunities per second to shift.
Super cool. Didnt know downshifting was this easy
This seriously helped me understand how to shift a dogbox trans. Thank you
Awesome! Thanks for watching!
Old school Truck Driving Experience helps all old schoolers left foot breaking down shifting with the jake brake
Funny how different worlds collide. I can see that overlap for sure.
Thanks for sharing. Years ago, at a Skip Barber school to get my license, they described their transmission as a 'straight cut, non-synchro' tranny. They taught us how to double-clutch on the down shifts. Took a little bit but I got the hang of it. Ever since then, I've always kept on my mind to 'spin the input shaft' if it doesn't want to go in gear (1st or R).
Yeah, that works as well. Straight cut gears rely on alignment and sometimes, you need to help that process along.
I just bought a Formula Mazda with a dog box. Never shifted one before. Read about how to do it. But it really helps to actually see how it's done.
Seat time is your best friend, but hopefully you have a good idea on the steps from this video.
It always occurred to me it should be shifted by the hand like you would shift a motorcycle with your foot. They too are straight cut dog ring and have been quick shifted for years. Quick and Diliberate.
Smoother than a cashmere cod piece.
Your videos are awesome I would love to see an installation video
Ummm, that car is a beast. Nice job.
How awesome!! Thanks for the explanation, and i chose to be an electrician 🤦🏽♀️
Glad I could help! The world needs electricians too!
thx for the info . really great tips . greetings
Cool driving
Thank you! Very informative.
Glad it was helpful!
This is cool well explained...and car sounds sweet!!!
Glad you liked it! Shifting a Synchro box vid is coming in the next week or so!
In Brazil will call the (dry box ) How much it cost a box like that
@@sampedro03 this particular box is about 10k USD
Great video thanks.
AWSOME video. Thank you brother!!!!
Just doing my part!
Awesome explanation and demo.
Glad you liked it! Let me know if you have any questions!
Knew what a dog box was, didn't fully understand it. Reminds a lot of floating gears, though a fair bit slower motions required.
Similar to a standard box, you just have to shift it fast and with a purpose. The downshifts are where it takes a bit more practice! You're right on the floating gears - timing is key!
Thanks Jesse for this explanation and method.
Always happy to help!
Pretty much sold now on getting a samsonas dogbox modified zf for my e46 m3 now. The getrag on it is tired, and you can’t purchase any replacement parts.
You basically have to buy new which is the same as a dogbox h pattern trans. Or gamble with getting a used one.
It looks like The driving experience has to be engaging on the track. Just watched your in car race videos and it seems like a fun and engaging experience with that trans. The shifts seem so crisp.
It’s a method you have to perfect, but the payoff is worth it, just like you see here and my in car videos.
Is it even possible to still miss shift during race conditions with this method?
Let’s say going from 3rd to 4th. Would you get blocked out if your mistakenly tried to shift into 2nd if your leaving 3rd at 8500 rpm. My thought process is that 2nd gear would be too fast and the worse thing would be damaging the dog rings.
Verification would be great.
@@kpwr6197 Missed shifts are still possible. The transmission has a more positive feel when going into gear - It is more "mechanical" feeling and feedback is quick and positive. Can you still go from 3rd to 2nd? Yes. The dogs are not like a synchro and you are able to get it in the wrong gear. The worst damage will be over-raving your engine.
I'm here getting info for a mazdaspeed transmission 😄
Very informative
This video just made me a subscriber..
Thanks for the great explanation..
Cleared up alot of questions.
Love to hear that. I try to break things down so anyone can understand it. Thanks for subscribing!
Great explanation. Seems really easy on up shift. On down shift not quite as easy. All happens so fast. So its gear in, neutral, blip and in whith the gear?
Downshifts are all about timing. There is a split second as you pass through neutral that you need to blip the throttle. Until that comes easy to you, you can pause in the middle of the shift, blip then put it in the next gear down at the right revs.
Can you do the exact same video again but with a slow mo camera? Particularly the downshift, really hard to tell the sequence.
Yeah, I can't tell when he blips
The only thing that confuses me about dog boxes are motorcycles and clutched downshifting. If you need the clutch to be engaged in order to synch the two dog speeds, then why can you downshift WITH the clutch on motorcycles?
Im able to clutchless up and downshift on motorcycles, and i always understood why that works, i just dont understand how clutched downshifting doesnt grind your gears if the mainshaft gear isnt being accelerated to match the output shaft due to being disengaged from the engine
I've seen some guys do it without lifting when upshift in H-pattern, is that another kind of gearbox or they have a tune to cut the ignition??
Is this a 5 - speed or you started on a second gear?
Awesome video! In a squential dog box, how do you perform blip on a downshift (while braking)? Do you press on the brake with left foot while blip/downshift at the same time?
Yes. He said that at the end.
Good example of upshifting with the Dog-Box.
But the downshifting was less clear.
When downshifting, say you are at the end of the straight and your car is at 8,000rpm in fourth gear. You brake and the revs drop to 5,000. Do you then put the box into neutral, blip the throttle, and then shove it into the lower gear?
(All without the clutch and super fast of course, so it just looks like a blur.)
Or after the revs drop to 5,000 in fourth gear do you blip the throttle with it still in gear, and then downshift to third?
(To me, this option doesn't make any sense as the revs wouldn't go up very much after the blip as the car would still be in gear. The car would also lurch forward really fast as you blipped the throttle.)
Good point I should have been more clear on - it is a bit of timing here as the blip needs to happen in the middle of the shift (neutral) to get the revs up to where the rotation of all the gears are at the same speed.
This takes time and is often rough for a while, but with a little patience and some slower downshifts, you will find the rhythm. After a while it just happens naturally and the downshift speed increases.
@@jpm Ah-ha. Thanks for the reply.
Also, since Dog-Boxes don't have synchros, what would happen if you didn't rev-match properly and shoved the box into its next lower gear?
Would you even be able to get it to go in smooth, if at all?
It is possible to simply jam it into gear with a dog box, but the blip will ease that transition.
Keep in mind that any rev limiter will not stop a downshift over-rev, so you still need to use your best judgement.
@@jpm Thanks for the info!
Good question & good answer, thanks for both boys!
I need one that smooth and quiet for an 88 foxbody mustang!
It’s possible!
What is that gearbox ?
Wow... Love this. I gotta get me one of Theeeese Lol. So can these be custom built for any application including wrong wheel drive? Is a core transmission required to build one and do you guys do this in house? I don't think my stock trans is shot, more like possibly the output shaft bearings are on the way out, but uncertain; however, at over 500 hp and tq to the wheels, it likely wouldn't last long anyways so I think something like this would be a good option if such a thing is even available for my application.
There are many options and it can be a new case, or new gears in an old case, depending on the direction you go. I will say that a dog box in a street car may not be the best answer. If you are looking for a gear box that can handle the power, there are probably better options that keep the ease of use a priority, assuming it is for the street.
@@jpm Yeah it's kind of a street car but I think it'd be fine... I shift much the same as you do in the vid anyways, just at a stoplight would hafta get it in gear properly is all.
Oh and there aren't any options for my platform other than stock f35 (if you can find one), f23 (no LSD, and dumb gearing) or an f40 6spd (as costly as a dog box I'm sure, 4-6k not including a new shifter n cable setup)
Great video ! Does this apply the the Gforce g101a also ?
Same deal
Helpful!
Do you find any extra wear by clutchess shifting vs using a clutch?
If you shift a dog box RIGHT, parts will last you a long while. The dog rings are your wearable part in that case. Watch this video here - ruclips.net/video/aU1Ol5ZgRnI/видео.html and learn the right way to do it and you would be golden. Do it wrong and your dogs will take the brunt of it and wear fast.
@@jpm hi, thanks for the video, I've tried to do this with my samsonas sequential when my clutch slave cylinder failed, on upshift all is good, as I have ignition cut, on the downshift I tried to blip and push the lever down at the same time but all I got was grinding, is it different on a sequential? I've driven h pattern cars with synchros when they have had blown slave cylinders with the same method no problems but didn't seem to work on my sequential, any input? Thanks
@@SR22VET-S15 no, a sequential is the same and actually should be easier because you don't have gates to cross. Blip and shift simultaneously and it should be butter smooth.
That's a double sided answer. It can be harder on the disc spline for sure if you're not matching revs well but the material on the face should last longer because you're never disengaging the pressure plate.
@@jpm I have tried doesn't seem to work, maybe my electric throttle needs calibration
Awesome
Do you need anything extra done to be able to not have to use the clutch? Or is it just how all dog boxes are ?
A dog box has straight-cut (or square) teeth on the transmission gears as opposed to teeth that come to a point. A square is much stronger and allows you to shift quickly and force the gear change. A standard gear in a synchro box can do the same, but is more fragile and your technique better be perfect. The clutch isn't needed because of this, once you are rolling.
@@jpm There is abolutely no technical reason why a dog box requires straight cut gears. In fact a helical gear set is STRONGER on the gear mesh. The reason helical gears are not used in high horsepower cars is that a helical gear set causes laterial loads on the gearbox shafts (ie trying to spit gears out of the end of the transmission). Its simply that straight cut and dog engagement are both desirable in a race car. Its worth noting for people not familliar with a gearbox internals that ALL gears are ALWAYS engaged. When you "Change" gear, you are simply transfering the power through the gear that has the dog locked in.
Hop back in and show us how you would powershift that baby!!!! :‐)
Road racing and power shifts are not used together. But I like your enthusiasm!
Can shift the dog with full throttle?
This is very important for drag use
I see when you shift take out the leg
No. You need a “blip-shift” setup on a sequential box. A dog box is not going to do what you need.
So cool! NC application?
Not a drop in set for the NC, But maybe in the future? It is a nice and well-built gear set that will last with proper shifting.
Can you program some ECU's to blip the transmission automatically on a downshift. I know I'm comparing apples to oranges but some newer manuals can do it.
Best explanation on dog gears I've seen yet BTW.
Thanks.
Some ECU's do this, most don't. This isn't a hidden feature in the software or something that can be downloaded. It either will or it won't.
Thanks for the compliment - I am just trying to explain how I do things and am happy to help!
Yes, but you also need a strain guage on the shifter to let the ECU know what you are doing.
@@zoltrix7779 Mike of StanceWorks put one of those in his Honda K powered Ferrari 308. Shifter with a strain gauge built into the shift knob for just that purpose. He said it was like a $600 shift knob or something crazy like that.
Thanks great
On a dyno it seems easy to downshift by blipping the throttle but in real world applications won’t the car lurch forward when blipping without pressing the clutch? Under hard left foot braking the engine won’t rev up or blip??
The blipping is done in neutral so there's no connection between the engine and wheels.
thanks for sharing and showing how a dogbox has to be shifted right. I heard some theories on low speed dogboxes should be shifted slower, at faster speed the shift should be faster - what do you think about it? Also I have another question, how can I help to spin the input shaft for putting reverse gear on a sequential dogbox? Because there isn't this shift block feel (hope I can explain right), the lever goes in R but the gear is not selected, often on second attempt.
If the gear doesn't align, keep it out of gear, let off the clutch, go back on the clutch then shift.
You are probably starting the car with your foot down on the clutch which is the way you should do it, just make sure to make the gearbox spin a little bit by letting off of the clutch before you shift
The work vans I use are either really worn synchros or regular dogboxes, thinking the former, they are the same deal.
He even says in the video to let off the clutch gently while shifting in to 1st or reverse to move the input shaft.
Left foot braking? Man I grew up in Arcade!
Looks like something I would end up fucking up
my sychro trans sometimes wont go into reverse until I let the clutch bite a little and rotate the input shaft. Is my reverse gear syncromesh done for?
A lot of gearboxes don't have synchro on the reverse.
@@adematthewsracing my car is a 2015 european vw, I know that it has double syncros on two gears, one is the 1st gear, the other is either 2nd or reverse, not sure. nonetheless, it has at least one syncro on reverse
It is a h pattern dog box?
On downshift your clutch and rev match and shift?
Not sure I follow, but yes, I blip the throttle on the downshift to match revs.
Does this also work for Jericho transmissions?
Pretty close to the same thing.
Why didn't you demonstrate using the clutch on the downshift. I hardly think you will be wanting to blip the throttle without the clutch on a downchange, you are likely to be hard on the brakes at the same time. Personally, I prefer sequential gearbox's on track car, it just makes the dogbox action more straighforward with a push/pull action. Accidental miss shifts, especially going down gears with a H pattern dogbox can be terrible. A 5th to 2nd can result in serious engine damage... that is if you have not had a compression lockup and put it into a wall!
With heel-toeing, you are hard on the brakes and easily able to blip the throttle on the downshifts. Some people do use the clutch on downshifts, but once you get the timing down, it will be a smooth shift.
Sequential boxes are not allowed in my car classification, but yes, it does make things easier for sure.
Seat time is the key to keeping everything as smooth as possible, including missed shifts!
Clutch is just for learning off and braking
Looks like a quickshifter in motoGP bike
Not quite. That would be a sequential gearbox. This is still an “H-pattern” box, with gears cut to have straight teeth for durability.
Is it asking for trouble driving one on the streets?
I suppose you could, but the main advantages are time saved in shifting and gearbox durability. Personally, I wouldn’t want one in my daily driver.
@@jpm My soon to be daily driver is my 67 fastback with a 427w and a 5spd.
Its like a clutchless shift on a motorcycle
A motorcycle, essentially, has a dog-box. Same theory.
It’s not that easy on the street
the rollers help the drag you need for a good shift
Oh, I know!
just do everything you would do on a motorcycle
Pretty much this 👆 (assuming others know that much)