Immunity to Dissonance - Is It a Real Thing?
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- Опубликовано: 21 окт 2024
- In this episode of Everything Music we explore the concept of Immunity to Dissonance. If your are exposed to certain highly dissonant sounds for years, do you become desensitized to it to the point where you actually enjoy it? It’s real to me. What about you?
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I once attended a Pat Martino Masterclass. He was speaking about this exact subject. He said something along the lines of that things like vanilla I IV V progressions are now dissonant to him and that all the other stuff sounds consonant. Haha
I find it I'm usually the only one in my circle that enjoys dissonance. I write it in a song and don't even realize how extreme it is until people bring it up. I feel like if I'm not hearing tension somewhere in a song I lose interest quickly.
GODSON Official Music Same here.
I rarely comment and I accidentally stumbled onto this video and I thought I might as well contribute. I like to think of chords as words and progressions as sentences. More complex chords would mean more complex vocabulary. But just hearing that complex vocabulary isn't enough. It needs to resolve like adverbs to verbs etc. If you don't know what a word means to you or if it doesn't resonate with you, it holds no value and will be more of a distraction or an annoyance. But once you understand these complex vocabulary, you discover different meanings and emotions.
C - G - Am ... "oh I forgot to do homework."
C - E - Am7 ... "I dropped my phone, i hope it didn't break."
Cmaj7 - G#dim7 - Am9 ... "How could you cheat on me.. I loved you."
Cmaj7/9/13 - Fmmaj7/#11/13 - Am7/9/b13 ... "I'm sorry I couldn't save you, mom."
Cmaj7/9/11/13 - C#mmaj7/9/13/#15 over G - Am7/11 ... "I listen to Jacob Collier"
Chris Shin TRUE
What does that mean when you say C chord Over G ? When it says C/G
I remember when I first heard a min7b5 chord and I thought it sounded really dissonant. Now I hear it as a beautiful and sweet sounding chord
Welfare Yes, that was 40 years ago for me but I remember it!
Same here. Then, I started to add notes to this half diminished chors, like a M9, for instance. Used to be my favorite chord until I discovered the diminisehd major 7th. :) (which, to me, is easy to identify because you expect the M7 to move down a whole step). Littel by little, you enlarge your vocabulary. When you're into writing music, there are chords like that you use a lot for some time, and then move on to others, or rather. I believe creating is much about imitating, at least in the beginning. That's why I like Rick's videos..
Come to that, LEARNING is about imitating.
well if you're immune Rick, it's time to move onto microtones :)
Yess
I completely agree. Just like with anything else, your palette is capable of maturing and becoming accustomed to more complex stimuli. Most people don't like beer or wine the first time, but eventually they grow to like it and seek more complex flavors. However, if you are content with simple things and never try anything new, you may be a ketchup-on burnt-steak eater forever.
David Paul Great analogy. I was just thinking about something similar as I watched the video. I've learned to drink coffee with zero sweeteners nor cream. Whereas most people think bitterness is an undesirable sensory perception - just as dissonance for some - I've learned to appreciate how pleasant bitter flavors can be.
The question then is if there really is anything inherently wrong with being a "ketchup-on-burnt-steak eater"? And I mean this in the sense of food, music, art, literature, etc. Is there anything inherently wrong with having simple tastes? Sure, one could argue that such people are missing out on something, but (assuming they don't mind missing out) is that bad?
Andre Yu Tiamco Then it means they are just stupid
Dissonances are just like drugs, the more you get, more you want to feel good
lol
Rick, this was an extremely interesting discussion and very easy to relate as a musician. In my opinion your videos on the more "philosophical" and technical aspects of musical mechanics or interpretation is your best material. I've been watching as much as I can ever since I randomly stumbled upon your channel, I thought you were just some critic or commentator at first (lol) but quickly realized you're a very accomplished professional. I am amazed by your depth of knowledge and quality of presentation, excellent videos please keep it going, and thank you!
One of my students always says whenever he hears a sharp dissonance "it sounds broken". I have to reassure him that it is supposed to sound that way. It does make me wish pop musicians, record labels, etc. were more adventurous. I often feel like people do know what they are missing out on when they only get to hear straight tonal music.
Holy crap I've been looking for a video or article or something on this exact topic for a while now. Thank you for making this!
I have just finished a loud drum&bass song with a heavy dubstep drop in the end, and I came here to take a rest for a while, before I move on to the next track.
I feel just like sitting in the middle of the night with my choir conductor on a choir integration camp, and listening to him talk about music, and asking him questions. It's such a warm feeling.
Thank you Rick, for the fantastic lessons you create!
This is totally true. I worked with a band recently where I added some synth parts to their track with a very short chromatic run that sounded very cool to me, but was sour to their ears. Ended up taking the part out. Thank you Rick!
This is a very touching subject to me. I spent my whole life exploring chords and melodies because I wanted to express myself and felt like music was my best bet. Years later I realized that everyone hears things differently and even a major chord can be perceived in a million different ways. No two people in the world have ever listened to the very same piece. Ever. I remember fondly the excitement of finding out about modes and dissonances, and even though the majority of them don't surprise me anymore, I love seeing that excitement in my students when I show them that stuff. Music is the most universal yet personal thing that exists
rick beato you are the most generous music master on youtube. genius and accessible, its a rare thing
20 years ago I discovered by accident that our 12TET tuning system was 'out of tune'. I immediately got a calculator out and worked out that a 19TET would have maj & min 3rds much closer to the 5:4 & 6:5 frequency ratios. So I set abut reprogramming my friend's Korg T3. However I found that music played in 19TET seemed bland somehow.Moreover, after programming in perfect ratios (I had not heard of 'Just Intonation' back then) I found that after an hour or so of playing in this perfect tuning, when I returned to 12TET (the tuning we've been using for over 300 years) it sounded quite badly out of tune - but only for a minute or two.A similar thing happens when you've driven someone else's car (with their permission!) and then get back into yours. How quickly our brains adjust from something we've been used to for years.
Noticed it on guitars too. First noticed it on the D chord. With other chords soon to follow. I then began to notice that by splitting the differences in the out of tune notes. You could have a much more in tune sounding guitar. This created a new problem. Now I was no longer in tune was other instruments. Guitar and piano most noticeably. Not as bad with bass though. Eventually I came to the decision that I would use a tuner always and let my ear adjust to the way it sounded. Had a friend who refused to do things that way. He was a guitar player of course! Drove me crazy when we played in bands together. I would tune up with the tuner and give it to him. He would tune with the tuner. Then as soon as he thought no one was paying attention. He would re-tune his guitar by ear. Which made the guitars sound horrible together. Used to drive me fucking crazy.
I change way too much of tuning systems, I developed immunity to tuning systems, I loved to change and change too much the tuning system between compositions since I discovered that world, then I developed a immunity to dissonance, I just can see melodic patterns over a dissonant poly tuning system aurea, it's beautiful
I've watched alot of beato videos.... this is by far my favorite one!
I feel I'd been waiting for him to say the things he does in this video... your information and knowledge is priceless sir! God bless you Rick!🙏😄
What do dissonance, violence, and kinky sex have in common? That's right, you experience it enough, and you will get used to it. The phrase "be careful what you wish for" applies here - lol. I feel like there's a lesson in here...and that's to pace yourself or else you can end up bored with nowhere to go.
When I first heard Rite of Spring I thought it sounded awful. Now I can't get enough of music like that.
Thanks, Rick, this is wonderful. You bring the light to life. Its really deep change your video put us through. I am feeling like a scientist.
Some chords are not dissonant, but only refined.
As a young man, the punk with untuned guitars did not seem dissonant,
while jazz was like nails on the blackboard,
now is exactly the opposite :)
This is one of the best music lessons Ive ever had. You've really opened my ears up to a whole new spectrum. Thanks Rick!
Years ago I took classes on atonal music composition, twelve tone row among other theories were discussed. After a while, it sounds like any other music, when you listen to it enough. Your mind looks for the patterns that are there and finds them, and you learn to anticipate and make sense of the new paradigm.
So, I agree, Mr. Beato! love your channel, big fan over here.
It’s all above the relief of that tension. All my favorite music resolves itself to some glorious peak.
This video captures so much of the biggest moment in my improvement, the realization that context is EVERYTHING. The suspended note having to resolve to the third is such a good example, I held onto that for a while because of habits, just a comfort zone where things made immediate sense... Then literally one day I realized it was nothing but a habit, and these things rarely happen in my favorite music. I was always ''scared'' of these things, I thought it was gonna be messy getting used to it, but that day it just instantly clicked.
Even those crazy chromatic chords voiced in flat 9ths can sound just BEAUTIFUL and exactly right. If it's still all very hard, I recommend starting with just two chords looping, really just about anything works at that point, and your ear should develop to accept that harmony and, what was very vital for me, how it actually handles in the writing process. These things make sense when they come together, but before that point it can just sound like random noise, practice and results that demonstrate those things you're doing DO make sense are a learning experience like no other, before no time my musical interests, ear and writing process were in harmony, at that point the exploration truly began.
To me, dissonance is only about having nowhere to go. So a chord is only an irrelevant dissonance when it doesn't go somewhere, not necessarily a harmonic resolution, but a logical resolution. This is where the skill of the composer becomes evident!
So, as the language develops, strong(er) dissonances are incorporated.
The general population hasn't even got to Schoenberg yet, let alone Webern, or Babbitt who use highly consistent musical languages.
And then there's Varese! You can see why a "don't give a f*ck composer like Zappa was drawn to Varese. It's got everything, except the rules!
Graeme Gerrard Well said.
Agreed. It's all about movement and more specifically, DESTINATION.
Yeah!!
It is not my intention to be contradictory, but Rick prefaced this video by relating dissonance to movement, which is indeed the case. The inherent intervallic tension that dissonant intervals produce can be neutralized by mixing consonant intervals with dissonant intervals (or more distantly consonant intervals).
Dissonance = movement. Consonance = stillness.
Consonance + Dissonance produces a neutral quality that can sound resolved or move in a manner that resolves the dissonance within the neutrality of the mixture of consonant and dissonant relationships because the 'interplay' between the dissonant intervals in a given chord voicing also suggest new resolutions in spite of the perception that the neutralized dissonant intervals "have nowhere to go".
These are really great points... Personally I think variation in music can happen within many dimensions... dynamics, vertical harmony (the type of consonance/dissonance discussed in the video), even just the timbre & envelope (so much of getting a consonant/still sound out of a guitar is about touch, at least that's what I struggle with) are all ways in which you can add this sort of, generalized dissonance (tension?), but I think most people will also call resolution a kind of movement, i.e. you can move into dissonance? In other words, any kind of variation within those degrees of freedom, as it unfolds through time is a kind of movement, at least the way I usually understand it... I wonder what Barry Harris would say ;-)
I think that we can look at music like a sort of drink. You get all these wonderful different flavours. Dissonance gives it a bit of a tang. Makes it a bit sour. Gives it some character. But I think that dissonance when used badly, can sort of just leave you with a glass of neat vinegar. And that's not really my to my tastes. Then again, to each their own, and how are we to judge what is good use of dissonance and what is bad use of dissonance. Good video. Haven't even watched all of it and it's prompted good intellectual discussion. ;)
Rick, by saying that nothing sounds dissonance to you do you also mean that you no longer enjoy the resolution from dissonance to consonance? I enjoy listening to late romantic music (where dissonance does resolve) but cannot get into atonal music (where dissonance doesn't resolve) except for some pieces which have very interesting rhythmic changes. I think they are quite a different thing.
I tend to agree. For me,I don't like as well if there is no resolution. I can appreciate it but it's difficult for me to get really into it (not impossible though).
All I could think of is Ahmad Jamal through this entire video... dissonance paints in spaces of time that allows the listen to resolve - the real surprise if you become immune to it is the resolution chosen by the artist. In 12 tone music it can become a very stuffy listening room if you listen for everything and heard it all, but you should never become dull to an artist's perspective. Great video
This is a great video! I've always been a fan of tension and release, dissonance, cluster chords and the like. Some of the most beautiful and emotional music ever written has used these concepts. Nice to know other people feel the same way. Thanks.
This is the most inspiring video I have seen.
I have been on this music journey for a couple of years now, beginning with the idea that any note combination can somehow find harmony with each other.
This was first inspired by the belief that everything in heaven is in perfect harmony with each other, and why only let the angles have this benefit? I wanted to find a way to bring this to earth.
Since I had this dream, I have come across so much opposition. From others questioning this idea to me doubting myself believing i am the only person who has such an imagination to even think about this.
It's nice to know I'm not the only person on earth who find harmony in dissonance.
Thanks, very helpful info! Have to take it in small doses as my head hurts from overload but I keep coming back to it and it starts to sink/sync in.
Rico, I would not necessarily use the word "immune" when referring to dissonance ; I would say "familiarity" is the right word. Remember that music is a language and the more you learn the vocab and grammar, the more fluent you become. As you get better and better, you don't become "immune," rather, you become FAMILIAR. Any artist never becomes immune to the tools of his trade. Now I will turn the table and say you could ask if you develop an "immunity" to EMOTION. In other words, is becoming so familiar with all these varied sounds thicken your skin, so to speak, so that those sounds which once elicited an emotional response from you, now elicit hardly anything !! In other words, you have upped the ante on your own ear and soul by becoming even better at what you do. So let's take Dylan for example ; is Dylan so far advanced in his sound recognition that he is incapable of feeling anything from this world of sounds because he can identify them so well ? Would such a thing result in Dylan becoming one of the most incredible composers of his time because what is required for him to FEEL anything would be the most outrageous of musical chord structures ; ones only HE could invent ????? Another thought I have is this . . . no one ever gains "immunity" to change, and so one may become familiar with all the chords in the universe, BUT . . . it's how they weave together that makes the music come to life and to which there is absolutely no immunity, although there is perhaps plenty of familiarity, but not enough to dampen true emotional responses to those changes. See, here is that "Twilight Zone" place where the brain and the soul joust !! Where intellect meets ear and soul !! THIS is what it means to be HUMAN.
Thanks, Rico, keep 'em comin' !!
When I’m learning a contemporary (or 12-tone music) piece as a singer, there’s a certain moment, where I almost have to re-learn it because dissonant intervals suddenly start to “fit” and I cannot correct myself based solely on the feeling of dissonance. But that’s also the moment when I can suddenly intonate these intervals better.
That sequence at the beginning was AWESOME
Great video, thanks Rick! I believe that people who are really into music will, in time, want to hear more nuances and tasteful progressions, so dissonance becomes a tool, and not something to be avoided.
Rick, as someone much less familiar with these ideas, I can confirm it's a thing, especially due to how my perceptions vary from yours: lots of the chords you describe as not really dissonant sound pretty dissonant to me.
I watched one of your other videos where you wondered about why some people don't like jazz, and this seems like a major clue, yeah?
As an amateur, I''ve been peering round the edges of this rabbit whole for some time, feeling occasional boredom or a sense of a rut in my playing where I'm just repaeting things I do well, but not growing.
So maybe I really need to go down this rabbit hole and see if there's a bottom or not. This video really helped me work my way into some new ideas. Thanks for that.
Oh Yes! Loved this! Minor 9th is my favorite interval too! And all this fantastic chords... Thank You!
Sometimes I play a dissonant chord and it scares me so much so that my heartbeat goes up but this was an interesting perspective that hopefully will grow on me. I really only started studying music theory recently but I can actually understand most of what you mean now and it's amazing. Thanks for all the information
Last summer I was eating dinner with my parents in the kitchen, my mother was playing music in the background that was loud and me and my father hated it. Since it was 2 against 1, he took initiative and switched the music she had on to Keith Jarrett's "My Song" instead, just that piece from that album. I know my mother never grew accustomed to jazz music. I could see my dad getting slightly emotional listening to KJ - My Song and my mother actually stepped out of the kitchen to sit out in the garden.
Now she DID finished her dinner, but I truly believe she was becoming frightened by the piece of music, and/or maybe even intimidated by the fact that my dad was responding to it emotionally in a very silent way, so in response she went to sit outside in the garden to diminish any effect of her feeling something.
Well that's the way I see it, it was a really interesting occurrence to observe. But there really could be something to be said here, maybe people are afraid of good music.
As children, we learn to like things by watching the adults enjoying things that are utterly alien to us (which when we're kids, is almost everything). Of course, some things take time. As a kid I was hyper sensitive to bitter things, so broccoli and other veggies tasted like dirt, and they did until I was in my 20s when that sensitivity diminished. (I still hate certain veggies for that reason.) Watching my Dad grooving to Jazz that was utterly opaque to me taught me, at least, that there was "something in there" I was missing and didn't "get" until much later. But watching your enjoyment of those chords perhaps does the same. Db- over CMaj...well, the fact you love it suggests to me I need to figure out why, and that perhaps it's beneficial to me to do the same. This is how things are learned in general, and how our tastes are formed. Thanks for another great vid.
Wonderful video, Rick. "The history of western music can be described as the gradual transformation of dissonance into consonance"...I am paraphrasing as I can't recall where I read this but I remember how the notion struck me (a novice to the study of music and guitar) as I read those lines because my relationship to music has always oscillated between "convention" and "exploration". So your video gives wonderful insight into the intriguing and somewhat paradoxical nature of our relationship to music. On the one hand, it is a communal experience, and therefore a common baseline of some sorts is required. On the other hand, it is a spiritual experience, more or less wholly dependant on how deep the artist wants or is capable to go...even if that means relegating his music to having only a very small audience, perhaps simply an audience of one...Two sides of the same coin, really, as no individual is an island unto himself, though the further one drifts afield of convention, the lonelier the road is bound to be: not for the faint of heart or of spirit....With time, our "group appreciation" of convention and groundbreaking creative work inevitably evolves...Early plainchant was (and is) mainly all sung in unison, thus avoiding any possibility of dissonance. Perfect fourths were considered incredibly dissonant during the Renaissance period and were not used in much of that period. With the passage of time, a perfect fourth transmuted into a consonant sound... Not only is dissonance the lifeblood of musical compositions, one could argue its treatment through the ages has been the motive force behind western music's evolution...(congrats on you 200k!)
absolutely true. disonance (especially) if it is contextualised/resolved makes sense.
Great topic thanks Rick. I've always loved complex chords and bends that end inbetween notes. Any sound could be something. You have to bring it all together with your own context. Repetition of sound clusters. Reference what is all ready known. Do what you love.
People learn to hear more complex sonorities over time. And to be frank, some "dissonant" chords are much more resonant than others. Additionally, dissonance depends on context. Some dissonant sonorities lead more naturally to others, while many do not.
I love the way you explain why this is.
Amazing video Rick! This is also why heavy metal listeners tend to be a lot more immune to dissonance and even enjoy it than say, your average mainstream pop enthusiast - they are so used to hearing dissonant intervals such as the minor second and the augmented fourth that they become immune to it. I know because I am one of them! 😁😁
I feel this way with rhythm too. At first, different time signatures sound odd but eventually they sound normal, and you can't hear the piece how you heard it the first time, with the initial perceived awkwardness.
Also, when you talk about instruments competing for the same frequency, this makes me understand why some albums sound like there is a lot of space between instruments and others feel cramped. So it's about the mixing I gather. Thanks.
omg so much cool data, I think your channel just became one of my favorites Rick
Great lecture and examples. I've had a similar experience after playing around with my modular synth modules over about two years. Focusing on noises and the blending of sounds in various kinds of modulation opens the ears up, and what used to sound harsh or wrong appears interesting and, often, pleasant. While the harmonic content is much less sophisticated than poly-tonality, it seems like an analogous process. It was a surprise when I noticed my ears had, sort of, become bigger.
Fascinating. Would enjoy more exploration of this
Super fascinating topic. So glad I found this channel.
Fascinating discussion! It makes sense that as the ear becomes more acutely discerning to unusual chords, it develops first an awareness of those sounds, and only later an appreciation of it. I think this is an incredible observation.
And yes, listening to your channel has certainly opened my ear, which was already fairly good. I think your theory makes a lot of sense. But it's not true for everyone, simply because they are resistant to change or expansion. Most people are "immuned" to even trying to open their ears to something different. Except by being exposed to movie soundtracks, which often have these dissonances, the average person will not go toward that particular direction willingly. Love the Dona Lucia tune! Where can we hear that?
Thank You for these tutorials, Rick. You are a good teacher, very interesting.
Wow, this is something I've often felt, and played with but never quite been able to articulate like you just did. Something you didn't touch on that I have noticed, especially when working on strings in the box, is how a velocity (or note volume) can influence the feeling or 'acceptability' of a note. When you are playing a cluster at the piano too, not all notes are equal velocity and this can also affect the feeling.. if you choose to emphasise a note(s). Sometimes with an orchestration I feel the need to pull certain voices in a chord up or down to move the emphasis.
Btw, recently discovered your videos and been very inspired by them, so thanks! Your studio looks awesome by the way. Greetings from London, Gavin
Great video...I love dissonance! But it's your 'Stop' analogy at the end that brings to mind a book that, to my mind completely rewrote the use & combination of word structures.... "The God of Small Things"
Beautiful video Rick! I think dissonance comes down to the individual as well. I grew up listening to Genesis, King Crimson and many Prog Rock bands and that actually drew me to Jazz, because my ear was so used to not-so-consonant, "proggy", you could say, chords. I fell in love with the balance between dissonance and consonance and how complex chords resolve in Jazz, even rhythmic complexity sounded refhreshing etc. Music is so vast so why limit yourself to consonances-only (ie mainstream music)?
Having said that, I've been studying classical counterpoint for the past couple of years and the consonances are so strong and desired there, that every little dissonance makes a big difference. In a sense, I'm training my ears to hear dissonances...dissonant again. I don't think you can be fully immune to dissonance but you can get used to it for sure. Personally, I love complex, jazzy chords and I'm sure others do too. :)
Completely agree. When I was young , a Dominant 7th with an added 13th sounded 'dissonant' to my über green ears. Now a Dom 7/13 chord sounds ludicrously 'consonant'.
A beautiful lesson Rick... among so many quality lessons, this still stood out. Truly thought provoking. My take would be that you don't get immune to it, but it becomes more of a relative thing than a disturbing thing. I love to experiment with chords, and some of the exotic chords you played did ring a bell, not necessarily the exact chords, but "a triad in there, and it sounds like a 13b9" and so on. OK... I've got one for you: 10 stacked adjacent quarter tones. :) Getting outside the piano would wake us up, I think!
Your videos are wonderful. I am learning so much. Thank you.
Rick you 're such an inspiration man! Love your content!
I think it has a lot to do with context. A diminished or an augmented chord can sound dissonant on its own (especially for someone who doesn't know what to do with the chord) but when you hear it in context, it sounds just fine and if you aren't aware that the music uses these chords, you may not even notice them. So it's not about how dissonant or consonant something sounds like on its own, it's about what you do with the sounds. In a certain aesthetic, a sus4 resolving to a major or a minor triad is expected, and if you don't do that, it does sound dissonant, same with a dominant that doesn't resolve to the tonic. But in another aesthetic non-resolving dominants are common and sus4 chords aren't even treated as any kind of suspensions.
And when you learn these new contexts in which these sounds are used, just hearing the sound on its own reminds you of that context and it doesn't sound weird at all (because you know what to do with the sound to make it work - you know how the sound is "supposed" to "behave").
I'm officially addicted to this channel and this video is my favorite of this weekend's binge. For lovers of "dissonance" in rock music, check out the band Virus. The Agent That Shapes The Desert is a great record to start with. See if you can get with the vocals! The Black Flux is a tamer record to start with imo.
Rick, because of the inherent relationship between the harmonic series and the limitations of the human hearing range, the 'intensity' to which you refer regarding the higher register clusters actually produces a higher level of tonal fusion in the higher registers of the piano as opposed to clusters in the lower registers, which are perceived as competing fundamental frequencies that do not harmonically cohere to one another.
Love your videos Rick. This is my favorite one yet!
I love the dissonant chords. The sus chords, the minor seconds, and now that I've learned about the augmented intervals and such - those are the sounds I like a lot. So I guess I'm either "immune" to dissonance or I just am a dissonant person lol.
there's a relationship between things, no matter how dissonant. once your mental boxes get broken, it becomes something of a moot point. it's the same thing with "asymmetric" time signatures (ie things that aren't in 3 or 4).
I am a complete beginner learning Jazz piano and this video has been very interesting to watch. As I think about improvising I will try to explore dissonance. I shall research more on this subject and wonder if someone has demonstrated some more on this subject especially about creating and changing mood in music.
great topic. too early to play your video but responding to the question you pose. Holdsworth commented that the standard guitar voicing of say CM7 CEGB sounded disgusting to him. We know much of his music contains dissonance.Coltrane's album with Rashid Ali is quite dissonant(without a chordal instrument, but the listener absorbs the line as he moves toward another more outside line) Both are brilliant but (using the reverse of what you said) I feel as though they became desensitized to simpler chord structures. I think many of us like to retain a balance. Nirvana did it brilliantly.
Jimmy C I agree will you.
Cmaj7 is vanilla ice cream with vanilla topping and chunks of vanilla, made into a float with vanilla cream soda.
I used to not particularly like Jacob Collier's music but I respected him as a musician; now that I've given his album the time of day to listen to I find it incredibly enjoyable and interesting, although my family, who aren't used to it, can't say the same.
I love dissonance. But then again, I enjoy listening to Jandek, so take that for what it's worth.
I definitely think there is something to this. I know from the month I have spent listening to your videos I have become more accustomed to these tones. Nearly, 10 years back some friends of mine went to see Matthew Shipp play a show in NYC. The show was divided into two parts. The first half was very dissonant and challenging to the listeners. We were all in a surly mood during intermission. I wasn't sure how much more I could take, but then the 2nd half begun and while they still hit on some dissonant notes/chords... it seem to resolve more and also the groove kicked in and lost its dissonant qualities as well. Actually, I am not sure that proves your point, but it definitely felt like the first part of the show was meant to challenge and the second part was meant to relieve.
I’m not a musician and know nothing about music theory, but I watch some reaction and breakdown channels of songs and music. Every time they said that some sounds were ‘dissonant’, I didn’t get it because for my ears they sounded beautiful and logical. I still feel emotion with those sounds, but they just don’t sound so uncomfortable.
Dissonance sounds more like “a question”, for which an answer is still being searched in the progress.
Some of these dissonances are eerily similar to techniques used by Van Cleave, Jerry Goldsmith and Bernard Herrmann in the Twilight Zone soundtracks. (That's from a LONG time ago, relatively speaking, so yes--I'm am used to these sounds and I do enjoy them.)
I totally agree with you. For example, when I went to highschool, I listened mainly to alternative rock. I met a guy who became a good friend who was an extreme metal fan, but by this time I couldn't stand the death growl singing and the blast beats. It sounded really aggressive and unpleasant to me, like pure noise.
But I listened to the albums he gave me more and more, and found myself being a "metalhead" too within a year. Same thing happened later with more dissonant music or microtonal music, but I embraced it since I knew that the beauty of it would be revealed afterwards.
For example, the band Dysrhythmia took me a while to enjoy, but their album "Test of Submission" is of my favourite album ever made. Same for Bartok, and a lot of others.
Also I think these conclusions goes along the thoughts of Kandinsky, especially about the research of "complex emotions".
I wouldn’t say that the ear becomes immune to dissonance, but that the ear becomes accustomed to more dense sonorities as it is exposed to them through compositions of high quality. Generally, compositions of high quality still follow the basic rules of counterpoint set forth by the composers of the Renaissance. The Field of Dreams example follows the passing tone rules, but it is interesting to consider the minor 9th resolving to a less dissonant 7th before arriving at the perfect 5th.
Dissonance is defined by the character and style of the music. Throughout music history the definition of dissonance has changed. In the days of Gregorian chant, thirds were considered dissonant and avoided. The development of tonal harmony centered on building triads and the occasional seventh chord out of thirds, which culminated in the Classical period of Mozart and Haydn. The Romantic composers sought to extend the harmonic language by introducing extensions of harmonies and dissonances, and by the dawn of the 20th century, it seemed “all bets were off” with regards to dissonance. Here in the 21st century, I think composers are challenged to utilize all of the various forms and styles from ages past, and fuse them into a cohesive musical landscape.
As my own ear has matured, I have come to love Scriabin, well-written serialism, and even some polychromatic music, whereas in my youth, I hated those styles of music, and they did sound like total dissonance. So too, my jazz ear also matured where I only used to like the earlier Miles Davis albums, Kind of Blue and earlier, it took at least a decade of listening to jazz before I could appreciate and actually enjoy Bitches Brew, and similar free jazz like Ornette Coleman.
This was a very interesting video. Keep 'em comin'!
This dude is a boss
OK. 1st minute in and I've got two words. GLENN BRANCA. Not a real fan of his myself but his love of dissonance really went DEEP.
This kind of broke my brain. I almost feel like everything I've ever thought about harmony is a lie. But like in a good way since I don't feel like dissonance is something to be avoided anymore.
The fact that you referenced Finnegan's Wake just blew my mind.
Heavy analogies to cooking and tastefully use of spices come to mind.
Fascinating video . Really enjoyed it
This is great, thank you.
Definitely real to me. I first realized my fondness of dissonance playing Shostakovic for the first time.
Beyond relativist-consumerist and tacit solipsism { "Is nothing dissonant anymore?" } I often find myself quietly celebrating your open, deeply thoughtful 'constructive celebration' of dissonance, Rick. In general (and pulling the lens way back, as I'm wont to do) this reminds me of a number of pretty remote but - ultimately - perhaps pretty meaningful things/notions/senses. (For instance, [believe it or not, and prob. under the inspiration of visionaries like Messiaen and Pärt] the proverbial taring of the Holy of Holies curtain that, according to the gospel account occurred as Christ was crucified [that is, whether seen in terms of history or myth] actually does come to mind. :: One can of course approach issues meaningfully if peculiarly related to questions around dissonance - first - through two very basic, very different lenses: epistemological idealism (concerning one's sense of X regardless of whatever corresponding phenomenon possibly beyond this active perception) - OR - in a perhaps more intuitive or classical [if not naively] realist way. The phenomenon of relative dissonance may finally seem most compelling where it is considered in terms of a simultaneity between [1] sounds' [POSSIBLE] 'Revelation' in space-time AND [2] sensibility's relative and active accommodation of the same. SO - for one point - the [relative] Tension [or disonance] may seem referential and not an end in itself. It is also among a number of different dimensions or 'scales' of tension (as Rick suggests here regarding some heuristical production notes). Relative dissonance may entail a kind of lived - that is, emotional or felt - allegory concerning boundary and its overcoming - that not necessarily conceived as 'transgressive' but that perhaps conceived more interms of a kind of [mutual and multi-directional] transcending (maybe think Trane, perhaps, more so than Brotzmann - Cezanne or Braque more so than Dali). Taking related questions up as a way of peering more richly into, say, Kant's equally compelling and problematic 'cosmological epistemology/epistemological cosmology' may also remotely and Meaningfully pierce into ['relatively-collectively' perceived] dissonance and its implications. So much more need be said. :: The notion that music's constellated 'contrast dynamics' (vertical or pitch related, horizontal or time-related, production-focused, orchestrational, etc., etc.) may eventually seem secondary to the relation of such to communicative effect, or 'proto-relational purpose' - that is, OVER the life-span of one actively curious about what contrasts meaningfully exist and act in art. :: The notion that these things are simply and only (or Absolutely) 'ends in themselves' (for instance, see P. Metheny comments on such) remains - after some sustained investigation - stubbornly 'dissonant' to me.
That's so cool, I also believe in ''Immunity to Dissonance''. Anything that you listen to a lot is going to sound normal, like for example polytonal songs or atonal music. But I also very much respect even the simplest melodies that don't even have a lot of harmony. Just because a lot of the times that's all you need to create that perfect ambiance for something. It is used in a lot of movies and video games. Modern harmony and all that is beautiful but sometimes just a simple monophony or monody can sound amazing :D
Melinda Phoenix "Immunity to Dissonance" is a great motto for a T-shirt!
I've always enjoyed dissonance for as long as I can remember. Kind of a feature of the old horror movies, right? Dissonance to me is just another form of harmony.
So yeah. I think I've become immune as well. The next step is to begin using Just Intonation and explain your harmonies in terms of O-tonality and U-tonality.
Because harmonic theory based on 12-TET is bunk. :)
I kind of think a preference for consonance is something we learn rather than built in. Look at a small child bashing away on a keyboard. They are in bliss making crazy clashy baby music that sounds terrible and atonal to us. But maybe it does sound great to the child because they havent been trained out of it by the western pop canon
Yes!!!
Hey Rick. I've stumbled upon your channel and absolutely love your stuff. I've spent the last few weeks trying to through as many of you videos as I can.
I know I'm practically tone deaf (or I as I like to put it: My ear was trained badly)! So I'm intrigued by videos like this because it gives me hope that I can go from being tone-deaf to at least somewhat able to find the notes in a simple song I like.
I'm hoping to save up the money to take your Ear Training course. I'll see if I can ask my friends to pool together and help me get it for my upcoming birthday :D
It looks like it's tailored from beginner to advanced an I just hope beginner is low enough for me! LOL!
At the very least, I'll buy the Beato book and watch every Beato video I can!
Great channel and thanks for being generous with your knowledge and time!!
I'm already overwhelmed with polyphonic choices on guitar .. I couldn't imagine having 6-8 note chords at your disposal all the time.
I have grown comfortable with dissonance, and with using dissonance -but not immune. All intervals have an effect on me.
Dissonance is another source of colour, though I find that it sounds better to me when there is a strong tension and resolution with more consonant harmonies. I have no problem listening to the works of composers as varied as Messiaen or Schnittke, though I am not fully conversant in the techniques they use; but find Webern and Boulez trickier to digest.
Not immune, because dissonance is not a disease. But comfortable with. Sure. But it's still distinguishable. And less pleasant, but the tension and resolution progression is what makes music interesting, and makes the consonant parts all the more pleasing.
Minor 9s my favourite interval too!
Nice comment about Finnegan’s Wake.
did you just give me the middle finger? 9:39
Great video by the way :)
Oh definitely. I'm still very much a novice at actual composition, but I grew up with a lot of jazz music and I loved to play around with just spreading my hands out on a piano keyboard and forming random chord clusters. I found that I really liked the sound qualities even though they deviated so strongly from standard consonance rules and now more often than not, songs that stick with straight major and minor chords are kind of dull to me.
Rick, personally I enjoyed all of the sounds I heard. I get a very anxious feeling when I hear the stacked melodies that can be birthed from the dissonance. So much so that I have spent a lot of time searching for it.
I landed on a channel on Facebook called dolomuse. The lady behind the channel explores some of the most esoteric things sonically possible. For instance music that is subdivided into 106 equal tones to the octave. Truly fascinating works. Check her out!
Nice insight, thanks.
Huh? I didn't know people actually disliked it. For me, dissonance is like watching a scary movie, although it's pleasant and often more beautiful to me than supposedly harmonious notes and chords. Dissonant music does have some sort of saccharin or chemical quality to it.