Just realised I forgot to put in a few things, increased Gs need increased camber, and as there is more body roll at higher Gs you would typically aim for your camber change to exceed your body roll (hence why double A-arms are better than swingarms). Also, increased camber gain will result in grip loss under acceleration and braking, and more radical balance shifts under trail braking and corner exit acceleration. Part 2 video maybe?
You got that MacPherson explanation... not exactly wrong, but a little off. You marked the lower point directly in line with the strut when you should've marked the ball joint. And I know your pictures are not to be taken in exactness, but by the way you drew it, it would've gained a lot of camber. You should've explained that MP strut systems will gain camber until the angle between the LCA and the "KPI" reaches 90* and as it compresses beyond that it will lose camber from peak gained camber (KPI quoted because even though it doesn't have a king pin, the angle from the upper strut mount to the LCA balljoint relative to vertical acts the same as KPI). Would also be worth mentioning that virtually all MP strut systems are set up to gain quite a bit of camber through compression and if you manage to reach the turning point, where you begin to lose camber, you're probably bottoming out... Otherwise, good video. Most people don't even mention wheel scrub in long travel.
If I am setting up an asphalt circle track car, would it be ideal to have longer upper control arm than stock to help limit this camber change? id assume camber change going into an asphalt circle track would not want change and want to stay at the same degree as it entered the corner?
So how do you get camber gain when you turn into the corner to catch the rear end? "Oversteer application" I have setup a static setup I can achieve camber gain if the wheel are straight, however, If I turn to the right I get camber lose when under static and dynamic body roll. Front right tire example is for dirt circle track racing.
So The S curve camber curve for offroad caught my eye, can you explain how they achieve this? because after playing around with suspension points for like 2h i don't really see a way on how that would work? or is this a hypothetical ideal?
Hello! Long time subscriber here. Thanks first and foremost for creating all of these videos. I understand that this is an old one, but I need clarity on something that's been in my head for a while and really hope you could spare some time to help me figure it out. Conventional thinking for MacPherson strut architecture is that the wheel starts to lose negative camber once the lower control arms go higher than parallel. I on the other hand think that the wheel can still gain negative camber with the LCAs sitting upwards at ride height, as long as the steering axis inclination (at rest) forms a secant line through the arc the LCA moves about (SAI and LCA pivots form an acute angle). Does this make sense? Thanks in advance!
Sorry trying to listen and type. I meant to say that there may be an error?? Camber gain or loos on compression using a stick suspension model. I see the camber changing one way or an other as the center of the wheel bearing race changes. ???
Great video, quick question if you have the time: Is there a range of desired camber angles you could design for in the scenarios of bump, roll and steering? I'm designing the suspension for a solar car (university engineering team) and am trying to figure out if there are desired values I can aim for. If it's a complicated answer, do you know of any good resources for this type of question? Any advice would be appreciated.
+tmactmacy By the three comments in a row I'm guessing you really want it eh? It's actually already on my video list (a series of 4 videos; roll centre, roll centre migration, pitch centre, pitch centre migration), but I wan't to take the time to flesh it out properly, so you probably wont see if for a while, at least not until well into next year!
I have a solid/straight front axle and I have a weak return to center especially when making slight turns even tho I have a relatively high positive caster at about 8 degrees. The steering at highway speeds is also light and vague feeling and requires constant correction to maintain straight ahead tracking. My static camber is currently at 0, which I can adjust with shims, wheels toed in at about 3/16 of an inch, kpi is 10 degrees. Would a positive or negative camber adjustment benefit me in this situation?
I find it strange that camber gain results in more negative camber. Yes, I understand the history of it, where very old cars used to have positive camber because that's what they needed for the designs and conditions that were prevalent at the time, and we've since gone to negative camber because that's what works for modern designs and conditions, so positive camber was defined earlier and the convention remained unchanged. However, it would've been nice to have kept the same convention when talking about camber gain/loss, so positive and negative conventions could've been maintained, instead of using ad hoc explanations which logically conflict with each other. I know, you didn't make the convention.
Just realised I forgot to put in a few things, increased Gs need increased camber, and as there is more body roll at higher Gs you would typically aim for your camber change to exceed your body roll (hence why double A-arms are better than swingarms). Also, increased camber gain will result in grip loss under acceleration and braking, and more radical balance shifts under trail braking and corner exit acceleration. Part 2 video maybe?
Part 2 time? The world went McStrut and forgot what good suspension is.
love these videos just wrote a dissertation on progressive suspension dynamics and finding it interesting how you explain things to the public
I find these suspension vids very interesting, please keep them coming!
+PickledAxe Thanks for the compliments!
PickledAx
Nice work.. I love this channel..
You got that MacPherson explanation... not exactly wrong, but a little off. You marked the lower point directly in line with the strut when you should've marked the ball joint. And I know your pictures are not to be taken in exactness, but by the way you drew it, it would've gained a lot of camber. You should've explained that MP strut systems will gain camber until the angle between the LCA and the "KPI" reaches 90* and as it compresses beyond that it will lose camber from peak gained camber (KPI quoted because even though it doesn't have a king pin, the angle from the upper strut mount to the LCA balljoint relative to vertical acts the same as KPI). Would also be worth mentioning that virtually all MP strut systems are set up to gain quite a bit of camber through compression and if you manage to reach the turning point, where you begin to lose camber, you're probably bottoming out... Otherwise, good video. Most people don't even mention wheel scrub in long travel.
please do a video on roll centers!
please make a video regarding spring rate, stiffness and damping of tyres and their importane in suspension design.
If I am setting up an asphalt circle track car, would it be ideal to have longer upper control arm than stock to help limit this camber change? id assume camber change going into an asphalt circle track would not want change and want to stay at the same degree as it entered the corner?
So how do you get camber gain when you turn into the corner to catch the rear end? "Oversteer application" I have setup a static setup I can achieve camber gain if the wheel are straight, however, If I turn to the right I get camber lose when under static and dynamic body roll. Front right tire example is for dirt circle track racing.
So The S curve camber curve for offroad caught my eye, can you explain how they achieve this? because after playing around with suspension points for like 2h i don't really see a way on how that would work? or is this a hypothetical ideal?
Hello! Long time subscriber here. Thanks first and foremost for creating all of these videos. I understand that this is an old one, but I need clarity on something that's been in my head for a while and really hope you could spare some time to help me figure it out.
Conventional thinking for MacPherson strut architecture is that the wheel starts to lose negative camber once the lower control arms go higher than parallel. I on the other hand think that the wheel can still gain negative camber with the LCAs sitting upwards at ride height, as long as the steering axis inclination (at rest) forms a secant line through the arc the LCA moves about (SAI and LCA pivots form an acute angle). Does this make sense? Thanks in advance!
Pro-Tipp: Just use a Solid-axle and your camber will always be the static camber regardless of your rollangle :D
Sorry trying to listen and type. I meant to say that there may be an error?? Camber gain or loos on compression using a stick suspension model. I see the camber changing one way or an other as the center of the wheel bearing race changes. ???
Great video, quick question if you have the time: Is there a range of desired camber angles you could design for in the scenarios of bump, roll and steering? I'm designing the suspension for a solar car (university engineering team) and am trying to figure out if there are desired values I can aim for. If it's a complicated answer, do you know of any good resources for this type of question? Any advice would be appreciated.
please do a video on roll centers
+tmactmacy By the three comments in a row I'm guessing you really want it eh? It's actually already on my video list (a series of 4 videos; roll centre, roll centre migration, pitch centre, pitch centre migration), but I wan't to take the time to flesh it out properly, so you probably wont see if for a while, at least not until well into next year!
I have a solid/straight front axle and I have a weak return to center especially when making slight turns even tho I have a relatively high positive caster at about 8 degrees. The steering at highway speeds is also light and vague feeling and requires constant correction to maintain straight ahead tracking. My static camber is currently at 0, which I can adjust with shims, wheels toed in at about 3/16 of an inch, kpi is 10 degrees. Would a positive or negative camber adjustment benefit me in this situation?
What is the equation to calculate this camber gain? and what is the curve you speak of?
i have a question, what you study for know this and the aerodinamic of a vehicle, my inglish is soo bad, sorry xd
great video, but how much camber gain would be optimal for a given vehicle?
Kjell Randeberg depends on track and tire set up. A tire temp measurement can help dial in a setup.
Shredxcam22 but how can you tell from temp measures whether you want camber gain or more static camber
On the M strut and camber loss or gain, It might be easiser to see camber gain or loss. I think I see something odd.
What is desirable camber change rate for 270kg ATV?
I find it strange that camber gain results in more negative camber. Yes, I understand the history of it, where very old cars used to have positive camber because that's what they needed for the designs and conditions that were prevalent at the time, and we've since gone to negative camber because that's what works for modern designs and conditions, so positive camber was defined earlier and the convention remained unchanged. However, it would've been nice to have kept the same convention when talking about camber gain/loss, so positive and negative conventions could've been maintained, instead of using ad hoc explanations which logically conflict with each other. I know, you didn't make the convention.
Thanks x3.
u look like that guys who says JUST DO IT in my sub box
this guy looks as tired as i am trying to learn this
Camber gain is da bomb. Get 6deg camber when I slam my car and gets mad tuck- wouldn't be able to fit the wheels without it.
#hellaflush
terrible drawings. just saying took me a while to understand them
+Marshall Storey Could you elaborate on what was bad so it may be improved?
Face the board when you draw. Pull the lines dont push and slow down. I love your content but the illustrations are really annoying.
please do a video on roll centers!
u look like that guys who says JUST DO IT in my sub box