Accident Case Study: Airframe Icing
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- Опубликовано: 9 июн 2016
- Link to certificate, WINGS credit, and ASI transcript: bit.ly/ACSAirFrameIceCert
Description: Ride along for this chilling re-creation and analysis of an accident that occurred when the pilot of a Cirrus SR22 encountered unforecast icing over the Sierra Nevada mountains. (This is a video rendering of a 2009 online course that was built in Adobe Flash.)
These are way better than most air accident videos on RUclips. The fact that they mostly focus on accidents of small, private planes not in public consciousness just makes them better
I’ve never flown a plane in my life, but these are cool to watch
Same here.
Crashing in sn airplane aint cool idiot!!!
@@mikearakelian6368 ok boomer
I think it's good to watch these videos as a way to remember that pilots are ordinary people. Ordinary people make ordinary mistakes, but ordinary people can also learn how to avoid the mistakes of others with a lot of training. A lot of the pilots flying small planes in these videos are highly experienced commercial and airline transport pilots, but they, like surgeons, star athletes, scientists, and musicians, are ordinary people.
Same
As a pilot, icing always scares the crap out of me. Whenever I see some ice start to build up on the edge of the windows or the leading edge of the wings I instantly get that twisting feeling in the pit of my stomach and I get the hell out of there ASAP.
Yes, totally agree!! I am DEATHLY scared of icing (in GA aircraft not fully equipped for flight into KNOWN icing). First, because it is so incredibly hard to forecast accurately. And second, because it can be so insidious, and deadly, leaving you no way out!!
Neither of you have ever been on a plane
@@spoonforthought3534 You've never used a spoon or thought about it beforehand.
none of u ever seen a plane
ya , it's kind of the irony of the cirrus, high performance aircraft , with a chute and de icing equip, and a high service ceiling, but it creates problems with low hour pilots who see this sort of thing as a safety net.. had he been forced to descend due to service ceiling , or had no icing equip he may have elected not to fly at all.. but the aircraft's systems, though limited, had him fly regardless..Poor guy got in over his head, and the plane could not cope, even the ballistic system couldn't help him.. poor guy must have been falling like a stone..
feel bad for him, as he filed a flight plan and took a lot of precautions, this was bad luck, timing, and one bad move, where the high performance of this plane actually gave him the option to get into worse trouble..
I wish they made more of these.
I have no idea why they don’t.
Yup
I hope you don't mean more accidents hehe
@@yembolit1988 hahaha no, I know what he means. Just more accident analysis videos, not more accidents haha. I agree too. These analysis videos are incredibly interesting. This is the only channel I’ve seen private plane accident analysis videos
@@josephdale69 funding
Being a Captain for 30 years, I’ve personally noticed on the cloud tops, is where most of the ice accumulates.
I’ve noticed that too. The top 1,000’ or so is considerably worse than lower regardless of temperature.
These well-produced videos are invaluable teaching tools to pilots - learning from other's mistakes. I can only imagine how many lives they have saved.
Just a shame people don’t seem to learn anything from it
@@spannaspinna Many pilots do. Safe pilots get safer. Those who are reckless, delusional wont change no matter what kind of education and information is available to them
These Accident Case Studies are excellent and very well-made, please continue to provide them here on RUclips! This one is particularly chilling since it seems to me that the pilot made relatively few mistakes (compared to the pilots in some of the other cases) and still he ended up in this tragic accident.
he made a lot of mistakes really.
1) he took off into pretty much known icing conditions in an aircraft not equipped for that
2) he didn't tell ATC he had icing the moment he started experiencing it
3) he didn't declare an emergency when he was struggling well before the loss of control
4) he kept pressing on, despite the fact that he was clearly in danger.
Make no mistake. The video doesn't show it, but the pilot knew he was in trouble for a while. It's a shame he didn't speak up
Absolutely. You don't get into a fatal accident without making mistakes, certainly. But I feel there were a lot of understandable little factors at play here as opposed to blatant clear mistakes. He did have an anti-ice system installed for example. It wasn't certified to go into icing conditions straight up but it's very very easy (and 'human') to develop overly amount of trust into systems like that. Not telling ATC about issues properly is also the same category, happens all the time, even with commercial pilots. You've got face to lose and you're not willing to accept the situation you're in. These ARE grave mistakes that any pilot should be trained not to make but they happen because we're all human. I was trying to point out that the mistakes of this particular pilot were fairly minor in comparison to, say, taking off without take off clearence etc., ie. cases that are much more simple, black-and-white to deal with. Cheers!
taking off with inadequate deicing into low freezing levels with visible moisture and a front nearby... pretty black and white to me tbh. and that's just the first big mistake. I understand what you're saying and I agree with you in the sense that ppl don't want to lose faith. Despite that, the mistakes were pretty big. They might not be as dramatic as messing up a SID or something, but it's way more deadly. Not telling ATC when your de-icing systems aren't clearing it is a big deal. Not declaring an emergency when it persists is the equivalent of not declaring an emergency when you experience an engine failure. Seriously. At least with an engine failure you can still fly the aircraft. Those weren't minor mistakes.
Agreed. Very well done.
It's always easy to armchair what he was seeing after the outcome is known. I pulled the full NTSB narrative and I'm inclined to agree with NihiL's original comment. Given the briefing and the aircraft's capabilities (like supp. ox on board, assuming it was working--that didn't seem to be investigated), I don't see much as especially noteworthy until the Southwest Airlines pirep. Whether or not he heard or received that is apparently unknown. The progression of the front needed watching with the freezing levels, maybe with a detour to the south if necessary. The icing forecast was certainly erroneous, but the cloud layers in the METARs are AGL and don't seem to have been that significant even in the pirep (out of it in 1,500 ft. well above the pilot's filed altitude). Another curious thing is that I find no indication that he even utilized his weeping-wing or other ice-response capability (pitot heat, even? Who knows). Maybe, but the NTSB doesn't seem to even check for any indications of those, and just resorts to proving that the airplane and the system weren't certified for known ice (no kidding?). He was definitely not communicative once he started getting into trouble--that was undoubtedly his single biggest, and likely lethal, mistake--though he also got no response from ATC at all when he did mention it. Does the Cirrus turn into a 5,000 fpm brick if it stalls with ice? Maybe. Or maybe other failures or failure-to-fly-the-airplane errors were then at work. I actually don't think that most of the mistakes made, or which ones were or weren't, are especially clear in this accident example. There are many better ones to learn from.
RIP to that pilot and condolences to his loved ones. Great vid ASI, well produced and informative.
The only thing positive one could say about this mishap is Mr SR22 didn't have his wife and two kids along for the fatal ride. He was told about possible icing conditions before he departed. But, he was too focused on getting home so as not to get "stuck" in RENO. There are worse places to be "stuck" and it beats getting "stuck" in cumulo granite.
Yea I dont understand why this private pilots have the get there itis...Its not worth your life! after binge watching these vidoes...I notice when the plane is going down most pilots remain calm...Ik they say dont panic. R.I.P
At about 10:00, the pilot says that he needs to build up airspeed. To me, that's the telltale for icing.
Yeah, that would be a good time to try descending, though arguably mentioning ice earlier and questioning the request to go to 16000 was the "early acton" that would have prevented it. These videos are grat for spotting the holes in the cheese lining up, but you can just imagine being in the scenario and thinking "ATC want me to climb, ok. The clouds will probably break up before 16000 and I'll be fine." Damn these things are so tragic.
@@mjudec Like the one where the plane iced up quickly going through known icing, crashed on a busy highway during the morning commute, killing the pilot, his kids, his wife, their dog, and a coworker, who was a vice president or the like. All that horror! Then there was ATC, one who said, "Oh, that Cirrus? He's descending on his own?" And the other who said, "I think he doesn't want to be." Like, "Oh, well."
I wonder if during his high altitude stall he considered deploying his aircraft parachute. As he likely knew he was losing control of the plane and would drop rapidly.
@@nonmihiseddeo4181 No, that was the ATC beginning to panic for the pilot. I really feel for those guys - there's nothing they can actually do to help in situations like that. 😣
@@michaelmccarthy4615 He appeared to be focusing *too* intently on flying his way out of it. As a result of accidents like this, Cirrus is really pushing some 'When in doubt, pop it out" training.
That final bit of audio... very, very chilling (no pun intended).
Reminds me of when we lose a firefighter and the "final call" goes out over the radio.
No pun received
@@justinwbohner aaa¹1p]]p]pp0ppp]0ppp0]]]p
No $#it
As soon as they said the pilot didn't like his odds of getting out the next day, I knew there was going to be trouble.
The old pressonitus. 😪
My instructor told me one thing a while back that I will never forget. He said "if you are considering whether or not to cancel a flight, and your circumstances sound like the start of an ASI video, cancel it."
There's several rookie mistakes here. (Not saying the pilot wasn't skilled, it's just a sign he's experienced, and forgot the basics).
1) Icing causes lack of lift.. You never want to climb higher if you already have ice building... even if that gets you out of the clouds, its a huge risk.. The lower you are, the more thick the air is, allowing you to get more lift, and more additional air speed.
2) Alot of ice building up on your wings is an emergency situation. Make sure the ATC gives you its full undivided attention and is aware of your problem.
3) Don't be afraid to request in-flight updates on weather, especially if you start hitting stuff that wasn't forecasted. Even if mild at the moment you never know if it's turned bad, and is building rapidly.
4) Never, ever underestimate the speed at which ice can build up on your plane. It takes only minutes to go from a plane, to a brick.
I'm not a pilot, but I've lived in this part of the Sierra Nevada for many years..and I've never been anywhere else, where weather can change so radically, as quickly as it does in this part of the world. I would imagine that it's even more "amplified", while flying at these altitudes. People in these parts often joke that you can experience a little piece of every season, in one day; around here.
This was one of the most eye opening and saddest videos I have seen yet, and worth re-watching every year as a reminder. Thank you for posting.
Traded altitude for airspeed. Knowing icing will stall you in a second... Not sure why he tried it. He had all the information needed to know he should get lower when it was offered to him...
Traded airspeed for altitude*
I've been in situations exactly like this one which just by luck didn't end like this. I didn't speak up because I wasn't PIC. A very sad example of how compromising only slightly on by all accounts a routine flight can change everything in an instant.
Yah I was sad he accepted those requests. His earlier route was ok.
Thanks so much for those videos. You really do our job safer. The aviation community really appreciate your support. 👍🏻
Please keep making these excellent videos. They make us all safer pilots.
Wonderful use of lessons learned, even though the event was very unfortunate. The big question is What would you do? you can not answer that question but you can remember this and use it for the future.
Single engine IMC at night over mountains my Pops always told me NO WAY!! This was scary!
Pops was right. Any single engine at night is suspect, IMC is an absolute no-no at night for me over flat ground. It was a bold decision to head into that weather at those altitudes. He might have been emboldened by the TKS system. I had a Mooney that had it and it definitely emboldened me to do some flights I would not have taken had I not had it, but nothing as crazy as this.
@@schdavjer imc is vfr?
Fascinating viewing not to mention extremely educational . Most unfortunately these folks lost their lives and left behind heartbroken loved ones .
Great video and an excellent training tool. Icing is an everyday way of life up here northern New England. It's a factor to consider in every winger flight, and other times of the year also. When you get up north where we are, the freezing level is also always above ground level. Guaranteed icing when you get in the clouds. Clear ice is frequent, rime ice also. When flying a 172, I always carried a flashlight so I could more easily see (at night) what the ice build up was doing. In my Bonanza, although still a major concern, I wasn't as concerned as in the 172. The Bonanza V tail can carry a hefty load of ice if it needs to. (Never on purpose of course!) The thing with icing is, WHEN, and not if, you encounter it, make an altitude change pretty quickly. A lot of times increasing or decreasing your altitude even a small amount, will stop further accumulation, as ice is many times just between certain altitudes, despite the temps. Just remember when landing, you're still carrying that load of ice and your plane handles differently. You'll need to fly your plane according to whats built up. Increased speeds etc for landing.
Hey JM, just wondering if you could explain why icing occurs with planes flying above desert or southern US airports. I'm not a pilot, just a father (ex-navy tactical air controller) with two student pilot sons. I worry about them constantly. I see this crazy stuff where weight and balance as well as cg was ignored by a high time pilot, and others, where they went up got into imc (could still control the plane) but yet fell out of the sky due to icing in a GA aircraft. It's crazy. Thanks!
Although it is fairly easy to predict where the large areas of icing potential exist, the accurate prediction of
specific icing areas and altitudes poses more of a quandary. Mountains, bodies of water, wind, temperature, moisture, and atmospheric pressure all play everchanging roles in weather-making. www.aopa.org/-/media/files/AOPA/Home/Pilot-Resources/ASI/Safety-Advisors/sa11.pdf
This truly truly truly is one of the examples
Another informative, yet sobering video. On watching the events unfolding, I wonder if the PIREP from the Southwest inbound was ever relayed to the Cirrus pilot? Or was it so quick, there was no transfer of info from approach to departure yet? Just wondered. RIP pilot.
I caught that too but I think it wasn't relayed I think in this case the pilot relied on his own de-icing system as a way to get out of trouble he wasn't concerned with asking about ice.
If I was flying a Cirrus and got a pirep of a Boeing getting moderate rime I'd be "uh nope, heading back" What's moderate in a huge aircraft like that would be severe in a small GA aircraft. Same for turbulence.
@@ryanhampson673 My thought, heading out for departure, might have been "that PIREP was for 17,000 feet. I'm not going to be anywhere close to that altitude." I might have gone forward in departing.
Wouldn't have made any difference as that pilot wanted to get home a day early.
Love these vids. I really enjoy the voice of the narrator
Yes. A professional.
Such a tragedy. My condolences to family and friends.
Didn't know that the ballistic parachutes have a max airspeed of only 133 kts, that limits their usefulness tremendously.
That's 153 mph. Who knows what his true airspeed was. It's not so much the parachute can't handle the load....the air-frame can only handle so much of a jerk and load as well.
Munsell, yeah that I already knew. It makes the parachute only useful in the rare situation where the engine dies at high altitude and you're able to glide while slowing down to a parachute acceptable speed, but that particular situation is normally manageable in an emergency in that you can glide the airplane down either to an airport or open field, and you'd be doing so at a rate of decent close to a parachute, i.e. I don't really see where the parachute is actually helpful.
Yea the parachute is mainly meant for engine-out failures which some comments mention are usually manageable but if you are over water or in an area where there are no suitable places to conduct an off-field landing you'll be glad you have the parachute. The parachute can't save you from poor flying choices.
well put together report(by AVweb) based on data and critical thinking regarding the safety of the airplane parachute here:
ruclips.net/video/zT58pzY41wA/видео.html
Leggo My Ego - My thought when I heard that was "why can't Cirrus increase the useful airspeed of the BRS?" This pilot truly thought it was his lifesaver, but it just ripped away from the airframe. I'm an A&P who's specialized in structures/sheet-metal for over 20 years (also have a commercial license & instrument rating) so from what I've seen in aircraft structures, it certainly is possible to use a BRS and airframe components that can withstand deployment over 150 mph. However, the cost of such an improvement might make purchasing a Cirrus more difficult for this already overpriced airplane. Overpriced, but DAMN well built and an awesome flying plane, though I do prefer a Bonanza A-36.
I worked as ground crew for Canadian Airlines in the Northwest Territories. I'm not a pilot, but even I understand how dangerous ice can be for airplanes.
It was my job to de-ice our daily jet, and I'm proud to say that through my 2 year contract none of the jets i de-iced went down.
I worked there when i was aged 14 to 16.
PIC forgot one of the most basic rules regarding icing...Most of the icing lives in the tops, and not having a good understanding of flying along an approaching low pressure area coupled with mountainous lift of moist air is a classic ice generator...R.I.P.
Hey man is this type of weather information part of obtaining an IFR endorsement? I'm armchair flying here guessing this was completely avoidable. Thank you.
Yes, but he tried to get ABOVE the clouds so he would be completely clear of icing conditions. It wasn't an entirely bad idea.
jcflocher Yes, not entirely bad-- just bad enough. As ‘ B1900pilot ‘ said , in cloud layers with icing it’s usually worst near the tops. That’s why,if you’re taking on ice in a layer it’s better to descend, for two reasons: 1) That reason and 2) Pitching up in the climb will expose more of the underneath of the wings to ice formation as well. He didn’t need more , he needed to descend.
@@davidwhite8633 Since he wasn't expecting icing conditions in that area, perhaps he really did just want to get above the clouds at first. The severe icing may not have occurred until the latter part of his climb to 16,000 or even his final ascent to 16,800. If that's the case then the shock and lack of decision-making time would've made an appropriate & timely response very difficult, to say the least.
there you go, experience trumps a de icing system any day, might be alive had he known this, and taken it into account.. can see that turbo/high ceiling/de icing equip/parachute getting inexperienced pilots into trouble..
From now on expect the unexpected, freezing level into visible moisture= recipe for icing conditions. I fly G/A aircrafts with no icing protection systems and that makes it a no-go decision for me as a personal checklist.
" freezing level into visible moisture= recipe for icing conditions" that sounds more like expect the expected
I thought it was going to be a happy parachute story ... now I'm sad.
great video
FWIW, the local pilots at the time theorized that the unprotected tail stalled, leading to the dive. I never read the final report, so I'm not sure. It's a great motivator to make sure the TKS system is working correctly before flying over the Sierras in winter.
Shouldve deployed the chute much earlier. Cirrus themselves say the chute should be a first measure, not the last measure. Because if its the last measure then youre probably already in such conditions (like a dive) that the chute might not work
This series is really great. My take away from this is that any sort of ice - even if you have deicing capability - is an immediate pan situation. If ATC tell you to standby, just declare an emergency.
I disagree. Airplanes ice all the time. It's when you get too much ice for the deiceing system is when you get a problem.
If you don't have de-icing it's an emergency...
Caleb, Teague, if you fly with that mentality, you're potentially gonna be like this pilot. Airplanes that ice up, typically can fly into known icing conditions, but even so, there are limitations to how much an aircraft can take. Most general aviation aircrafts cannot fly into ANY icing, so if there is ice, you need to go into immediate actions to exit the icing conditions.
Your videos are very well produced!! Just subbed.
Glad you like them!
I’m French pilot , in France all pilots have to read all report made by (B.E.A) of all accident , is mandatory , like that you learn you learn.
I've had heavy rime icing on a car, and that was terrifying enough for me. 😕
CAPS failed. I think those chutes may give pilots a bit of overconfidence, but they certainly have their limitations (both in attitude and IAS on deployment), he was in a base model SR22 not an SR22T (no turbo) which has a service ceiling of I believe 17,000 where the T can climb up into the low to mid FL’s... that close to
Your service ceiling with a rime buildup is not a good situation to be in, and the added weight in combination with the excessive airspeed upon CAPS deployment, unfortunately he had no chance.
Was the pilot trying to climb out of the clouds thinking he'd stop the icing? Higher = colder. But, perhaps the cloud = moisture and he was thinking getting above and out of the moisture would resolve his issue. Counterintuitive. It seems to me the most logical move would be to get under the clouds at a lower, possibly warmer altitude.
Pilot: Bill McGrath, an executive with Novato-based Alamar Construction.
The pilot thought more altitude would save him. It killed him. I think the proper course would have been to turn south away from the front, and also descend a bit. And if you have no de-icing, once you pick up ice it's hard to lose it.
Every damn time I watch these videos, it's always a damn Cirrus SR22, and I'm always left wondering why they don't deploy the parachute system or don't deploy it until they're well outside operating ranges. You bought an aircraft, I'm sure in no small part, because it has an emergency parachute system. So why do they never seem to use that system they bought? I imagine it's one of the major selling points of the Cirrus SR22.
The pilot deployed it above the system's maximum airspeed and the chute separated - it says at the end of the video
@@gamma_hedge Yeah, I know, I watched the video. It would've been nice if you bothered to actually read my comment. "... or don't deploy it until they're well outside operating ranges". Got some more useless, redundant words to say? You are capable of reading, I presume?
@@CharlesFreck panic will hinder decision making greatly.
A big part of the issue is that pilots have a mindset where they don't want to admit that their situation is unsalvagable until it is too late.
I am binge watching these....
Gosh, Reno to Oakland is so close. Very sad.
mmh. Interesting to see the use of CAPS in this case it didn't help, but there are known instances of it working fine at well above it's designed airspeed.
It's at least worth noting that he deployed it.
If you know you're in an unrecoverable situation there's no reason not to.
It may not help, but it has the potential to save your life when nothing else will, so I'm glad to see it was used even though it failed.
Cirrus being the primary proponent of this system (I've seen other aircraft listed with such systems, but only Cirrus seems to offer it as a consistent standard feature on all it's aircraft) a lot of people have died because of some degree of arrogance or pride, when a CAPS deployment would have saved the life of everyone on the aircraft, but it was never used.
They tell people to use the system sooner rather than later.
Considering the airspeed and altitude limitations for effective deployment, that makes sense.
Like so many things in aviation though, it's something where complacent and arrogant attitudes lead to unnecessary deaths.
If you have a safety system but refuse to use it even when you should, you might as well not have it in the first place...
Remember the report is estimating his airspeed. Just before that we see quite a hefty negative vertical airspeed. The plane could have been doing well over 200kts.
Never, ever, assume that climbing will get you out of ice, unless you are certain it is so. Lower is always better provided there are workable cloud bases. It's a very "macho" thing to request higher. In some pilot circles, lower is somehow being a sissy. I know it is absurd but I think there is something in it. I never cease to be amazed how complacent pilots often are in the face of imminent danger.
I wonder if he was worried about terrain if he went lower? Being a proper IFR flight though, he should have been able to determine how low he could safely go. Perhaps he was thinking that if going high didn't work he could always come back down, whereas low and iced leaves you cornered. Probably didn't realize just how bad icing can get. Sounds like his plane turned into a brick real fast.
This guy seemed way to calm about the situation. Not sure if ATC could have done anything to save him really.
sometimes some people want to live this earth sooner than others & do all they can to achieve their wish..I respect that.
Good reminder
This is a great example of why I think the citrus parachute is much harder to use than people realize. The pressure to not pull it seems ever present because most situations where you need to pull it are situations that are probably your fault and are probably correctable with good piloting. So the pilot ends up fighting through an inevtiably bad outcome that he can’t handle because he doesn’t want to pull it until it’s too late. He could have gotten out of this situation a myriad of different ways but was incapable, so he should have just gotten lower slowed it down and popped the chute.
Not to mention that by pulling it, they're facing aircraft damage which will likely be a total loss. Plus the blow to their pride.
Nighttime flight, single engine plane, known icing conditions, IMC...over the mountains. 🤔🤦🏻♂️
What part of clouds/precip with temps below freezing don’t people understand?
Looking back, my best decisions always came after thinking (they may think I'm chicken $#!+ I'm gonna). Certain one or more would have been fatal if I hadn't.
I find these both interesting and informative. I was wondering if you planned to make more?
The previous pilot report was icing at 17,000 ... Lower was the choice I would have made. However I would have never flown at night IMC at high altitudes.
I'm far from a pilot and never will be, but been addicted to these videos since kobes tragedy. Been binge watching ever since. What I've learned is simply, unless its bright and sunny skies 100% of the flight, I wouldn't dare go beyond that. And the most I would do is a simple joy ride also, so there could be no pressure of HAVING to be somewhere. ESPECIALLY now knowing the rate of deaths due to transitioning from vfr to Imc (if I said that right), and how those skills can easily atrophy if not used consistently, which means an imc rating means absolutely nothing. And so MANY other things can go wrong if over looked. A life losing is just not worth it.
I believe it would be more consistent to say transitioning from VMC (Visual Meteorological Conditions) to IMC (Instrument Meteorological Conditions). However what you said certainly gets the point across.
I wouldn't personally go as far as saying 100% sunny skies the whole way or I wouldn't fly. Its all about knowing your limitations, and planning your route (or rerouting mid flight) to avoid bad weather. But ya, its easy to get in way over your head quickly near bad weather. A lot of these crashes seem to stem from not having a proper respect and fear for the dangers of flying.
Onnie Simza, LOL me too!!!! Even though Kobe died in a helicopter, not a plane, I've been watching these videos as well. That's funny. But I have gained some useful knowledge.
Sands Real Estate West You and the OP should check out the USCSB’s videos also (US Chemical Safety Board). They latest ones are so well done you won’t believe it!! Top notch narration and state of the art, incredibly detailed computer simulations of the exact industrial site where the accident occurred. Extremely entertaining & fascinating, there are hundreds of us on “Notification Squad”, people are even demanding it be put on Netflix and that we get an upcoming release schedule to look forward to, LOL 😂
One of these 2 links should work: ruclips.net/user/uscsb ruclips.net/user/uscsb
@@etherealessence
Or maybe it's
VFR to IFR then IMC and double IMC
(IIMC) I've been binge-watching after Kobe's accident also. Still can't believe he's gone.
Also, if you ever win a coin toss for a seat on a plane during dubious weather, don't take it.
Im not an expert of any sort, but that 'static' sounded like the sound of air on the airframe at high speed. Most likely right before a cataclysmic in-flight break-up.
Ouch, even the BRS could not save him.
Do we know if the airplane had Capps not that it would matter anyway because of the weather
Hi! So, what was the recommendation for this accident?
Where did the twin at 7:24 come from ?
This guy reminded me of Quint, from Jaws. Kept pushing the limits of the aircraft until destruction awaited.
He needed a bigger plane.
Like Brody said, should have stayed closer to the shoreline.
That's a totally different metric.
did ATC not pass along the icing pierep from the 737 ?
My thoughts exactly. ATC get's at least 30 percent of the blame in this accident.
A pilot says his plane is icing up and the controller did nothing for 15 s because it didn't sound urgent? Is this normal?
He was asked to provide pireps if able. If only he'd gotten that pirep.
But why in the world would you think going higher would help the icing? The higher you go the colder the air.. endless icing wasn't a problem and he was just trying to get above the clouds as he states
Personally, I would go home another way, especially since this SR22 is not FIKI-certified (newer ones can be though). I’d hangar it now & come back later. The cost of a crash is far greater-not just in terms of money-.
So many folks believe that those full airframe parachute systems will always save their butts!
But, as we see here, that is NOT always the case.
A very sad tale, indeed.
Indeed. Watch this Air Force training film. Very similar: ruclips.net/video/Aa1Ba_NEobs/видео.html
It has saved many lives though
Do all these case studies have to end in death.
These videos are priceless....you should have to watch the entire series at gunpoint before given a license :/
If you need a gun to your head to be convinced to watch these, maybe you shouldn’t be a pilot in the first place!
I’d be pissed in my last few seconds realizing the parachute I bought the plane for didn’t work, seems like a parachute on a plane gives a false sense of confidence more than anything
I wonder if he used that parachute earlier if it would of made any difference?
I WILL NEVER NEVER TAKE A SINGLE ENGINE IFR AT NIGHT IN BAD WEATHER !
What about F-16 Fighting Falcon? Its a single engine, all-weather plane. I'd take it
@@rykehuss3435 Generates a lot more thrust though....
What amazes me is the folks see ice building and trying to climb and barley climbing full throttle and losing airspeed too. But everything seems alright.
Weather and get-there-itis are the biggest killers!
And the best insurance you can buy for your airplane is a well trained pilot.
Miguel Oliveira SPOKEN LIKE A TRUE PILOT.
Weather doesn't kill anyone. People flying into it do.
Why Private Planes Are Nearly As Deadly As Cars www.livescience.com/49701-private-planes-safety.html
@@brianhackert8513 that article is akin to saying "privately owned guns are as deadly as cars". Very few aviation mishaps occur due to mechanical failure. The majority are pilot error - as was the case with this Cirrus pilot. So, let's not blame the private plane as the "culprit". AOPA provides a lot of case studies on here of low-time (and some high-time) pilots making really stupid decisions for a whole variety of reasons.
reno is hardly the mecca of gambling, the medina maybe but not the mecca.
Underrated comment
He didn't call it "the" Mecca, only "a" gambling Mecca. That means a place to gravitate to.
Not a pilot here, but...I'm confused by his decision to go higher up when he was experiencing icing. Wouldn't you want to do the opposite, since the air is warmer at lower altitudes?
Inaccurate icing forecast? When is any weather forecast accurate?
How would you know ice is building on your wings from the flight deck?
This is a Cirrus SR22, a small single engine aircraft, the "flight deck" is a few meters from the wings at most. It should also have "ice lights" which shine on top of the wings. In airliners, it's different but they also have much more capable de-icing systems than a SR22.
Every one of these involving icing, the pilot is determined to never say they are icing. Just makes no sense.
Why didn't the deicing system work and why wasn't the pilot able to recover from the stall considering their high altitude?
My guess is when the wings ice up it adds much weight to the aircraft and also takes the "flex" out of the wings ( think of it as moving around in a frozen shirt) the plane just becomes a brick
"Anti Icing systems have limitations and parachutes can fail. Have at least one Plan B that is guaranteed to work if you encounter ice."
Yeah if your parachute fails, have at least one Plan B. The way that is worded really makes it sound like deploying the parachute was his plan A.
I'm not a pilot, but I'm pretty sure deploying a ballistic parachute on an airplane is always Plan Z, if everything else has failed. I'm also suspecting once you deploy the parachute, you won't be able to have a Plan B if it doesn't work.
Parachute is always plan Z. The amount of damage you will incur wouldn't make up for it otherwise. Maintenance perosn I was talking to said that opening parachute will still cause the plane to sink 500 FPM and destroy the main and nose gears. This is another story of a pilot not asserting his dire situation to ATC and not descending to better conditions. Your plane icing up beyond what your anti-ice can do is a serious emergency and should not be underestimated. Icing severely reduces the plane wing's aerodynamics, creating a significant amount of drag while significantly reducing lift that keeps the plane from stalling. Once his plane stalled, it was pretty much unrecoverable.
Indeed. Use of the parachute totals the airplane no matter what. It puts you into the random terrain below over which you have no control, much of which will kill you even if everything else works. It provides a reduced chance of dying not a safe escape.
@@BillPalmer Perhaps that was why he didn't deploy it until too late.
Instead of being so smug you should improve on your reading comprehension and notice the point between the two quoted sentences. The second one represents an alternative to the first one, which means: you should have a plan b for encountering and thus evading icing conditions, before you come to rely on your anti icing systems or even come into a situation where your parachute could fail. Means, dont rely on these 2 systems, but have a plan B instead, that does not include or rely on either anti icing systems or the parachute. I love it when ppl think they are smart, and can't even read properly.
Yikes, exceeded the max airspeed for the ballistic parachute.
robo931 last attempt to save his life.
Being iced up, probably had no control on the AC. That was his last option.
That’s crazy he never even declared an emergency.
Icing happens quickly. Declaring an emergency during a free fall from 16000 feet isn't going to help much.
If he had recognized the desperate situation in terms of the icing, could he have slowed to the BRS deployment speed of 133kts while still at 16,700, or was the stall/loss of control and crash inevitable ? After all the aircraft couldn't stay flying at ~180kts, and any attempt to get down to 133kts seems like it would have had the same results due to the ice load(stall/loss of control/ over speed). I'm not suggesting the existence/availability of the BRS changes mindset , particularly in this case, but it seems to have clear limitations and can only save you in a limited set of circumstances. Moral of the story-don't paint yourself into a corner whether the BRS is there or not. That must have been a helluva' ride down after the BRS ripped the top of the cabin away...
It is difficult to say, because we don't know how bad the ice buildup was. The extreme buildup of ice on the wings could have rendered the angle of attack so high (and consequently increased the stall speed to a very high level as well), that it would have made the aircraft essentially un-flyable. In that case, it becomes impossible to "trade airspeed for altitude" and "slow down" the plane. So if he was "falling" at 5000 fpm, there is no way to reduce the vertical descent speed, and he was most likely doomed at that point!
So what's the best course to follow when icing up? Descend into warmer air immediately and then deal with ATC?
If the situation is dire, declare an emergency and advise ATC you're descending. Although it will likely result in a phone call and some paperwork, especially if you are given priority, FAR 91.3 is your friend. It's better than the NTSB having to do all the paperwork because you augered-in.
That said, I would hope it never comes to the point where the situation is indeed dire. You have no way of knowing who is down below you, and whether or not you're going to collide with someone on your way down. So the point then is to make good decisions *before* the situation gets to that point--and dare I say that trying to climb out of icing conditions near the service ceiling of your aircraft is probably NOT one of them.
@@bluehornet6752 I know the SR22 has de-icing fluid that'll give you about 45 minutes tops of de-icing but from what I gather it's really something not to be relied on. It's really meant to give the pilot a little breathing room to get out of the icing condition. I had a feeling the pilot in this case was headed for trouble already being at the limit of altitude. Like you said, it's better to deal with the possible repercussions of priority descending instead of well, being dead. I watch quite a bit of Niko's Wings channel with his SR22 and I've noticed he's always on top of things and a step ahead of any problem scenarios. The worst one of these I watched was the pilot treating his plane like a 4x4 during horrific blizzard conditions in a white out with no IFR training. 'Get-there-itus' is apparently the biggest killer of pilots.
@@tomservo5347 Indeed it is (seemingly) the greatest taker-of-lifes in aviation. Niko has a great channel, and seems like a very conscientious and safe pilot. I love watching his stuff. In fact I love watching all these guys' RUclips channels, as I recently got back into flying after being away for a few years. That's a GREAT way to learn the IFR system actually--find a few good channels here on YT, and watch (and listen) them flying on trips in the IFR system. Great for dusting off the mental rust before going back out to fly in aircraft and then (ultimately) in the system.
That would be extremely rude. Better to patiently ask ATC for clearance in a calm, cool, radio voice. Then a few minutes later, after they deny your clearance, say mayday as you're spinning towards the ground out of courtesy so they know where to locate the bodies.
What is "Loudstep"?
I always thought when in this situation descend down into warmer air, I feel terrible for this poor soul.
The freezing level was at 6000. It's mostly granite at 6000' in the Sierra...
So very interesting to listen to, and yet so hard! RIP to all who have unfortunately contributed to the better knowledge of current and future pilots!
Invaluable lesson. Thanks.
Have at least one "Plan B" that is guaranteed to work.
It would be great if you could list examples of these?
Ask your instructor.
Example of “Plan B that is guaranteed to work”
Plan B: Don’t fly - take commercial, or a bus.
So many of these aircraft are model Cirrus SR20 and 22. Most are low time pilots. It is a pretty obvious conclusion that the performance of the aircraft get the low time pilots into conditions well beyond their experience, knowledge of the airplane, and proficiency. And we all pay for it in our insurance premiums. Sad all the way around.
In the clouds, OAT below 4 C, not certified for flight in known icing, that’s enough briefer, we ain’t going.
Agreed, I don't get why people do it. You can't say you didn't know ice would be there.
You know it's nice that the SR22 comes with a parachute but to go through the design process for such a thing and have it limited to a lame-ass 133 kts is pretty sad engineering. I think they could spend a little more time on it and maybe a little better engineering and make it strong enough to save the large number of people who reached for it in desperation just to have it rip away from the plane and left them to die. Parachute technology isn't new and beefing the system up probably wouldn't have to add more than 10 or 15 pounds to the weight. When somebody is in enough trouble to go for the parachute they're not likely still poking along at a nice safe speed under 133 kts. Nice idea Cirrus but it's time to get it done right!
Sounds like they didn’t think about designing faster than 133kts, you should join the design team. I’m sure it’s just that nobody raised the idea of making it work at faster speeds..
is that the CSB voiceover guy?
These Cirrus planes have a real problem with the ballistic parachute where pilots are over confident in their skills because of the chute and take unnecessary risk.
There is a lot of info about cirrus control & spin problems out there. But It is the instantaneous decision making process related to flying a plane.
1. The Cirrus stick has no feedback from airfoil surfaces.
2. Not certified for spins (which on it's face is not disqualifying), but at 5k feet and no ability to recover? I've seen very little on this other than arguments that break out in internet forums that without evidence, the Cirrus 20/22 can recover.
steve wilson's blog has been deleted from the internet, but it had a several informative articles about it. web.archive.org/web/*/stevewilsonblog.com
Look at the 2016 range. I think the cirrus gets a bad rap from defective decision making; and it has happened with even the best qualified pilots as well.
IMO, just from all of the research I've done, (MY NON-PILOT OPINION) it's like going from a corvette (a 172) to a mid engine lamborghini (Cirrus) without understanding the limitations in many different situations.
I have flown in both. But only as a passenger.
The ballastic parachute option is not programmed into a pilots head. It is like the last option available, and only after the pilot recovers his thought processes and thinks... oh hell I got this thing above my head that can save me. At the point of damn near dying, spiraling into the ground, it's either going to be too fast (in this case), or too low (in all the rest).
Information overload and critical self judgement are real killers when things fail in flight.
People always second guess themselves, and from the many many videos produced on youtube... fail to (recognize) & declare emergencies out of what? fear? Looking bad? This is so sad.
I have tried this mental exercise many times in my head. If I don't declare an emergency, I'm cool, but I'm also responsible for what happens in the end. But yet if I declare and emergency then my head is free to think outside the box, and I may exercise options that may save my life, that I might not ever do otherwise. As well, having ATC on alert changes everything too.
Just my 2 cents as an arm-chair wanna-be. IMO, it's not the plane, it's the thinking!
@@dryan8377 Pilot ego has existed since there were...Pilots. Ego kills. Watch this 1981 training film: ruclips.net/video/Aa1Ba_NEobs/видео.html
ATC requesting he climb to 14,000 was the start of this. I think they are partly to blame in asking him to climb up into what was clearly icing conditions. The pilot probably assumed ATC knows best. The more of these videos I watch it seems ATC does not know best and is sometimes not very helpful or even downright unhelpful/dangerous.
It's true. ATC DON'T know what's best. They aren't pilots most of the time. It's up to the PIC to say yes/no, that's our jobs as pilots. ATC are NOT the boss of us. They have rudimentary meteorology training compared to pilots anyhow. The weather brief clearly indicated a low freezing level and thus icing. He shouldn't even have taken off tbh, since that was flying into known icing conditions. Ignoring that, it was the pilot's inability to assert himself and his pilot in command authority that got him in that mess. Be pilot in command. Number one rule. The pilot was instrument rated. If he truly believed ATC knew better than him then he should have grounded himself and hit the books for a recap. ATC was not at fault here. The pilot was. He made all the mistakes. He did not communicate his emergency, he did not communicate his inability to deal with icing. ATC
It's a real shame he deployed the chute before checking his speed. Dunno how he could have done it by that point though...
+BB992 as a pilot and a controller I hands down received more weather training for atc than during pilot training. The controller asked if the cirrus pilot could accept higher to 14000, he could have easily said unable. It's the pilot's responsibility to know the limits of them self and their aircraft. Controllers will separate ifr aircraft, provide advisory services, and help in any way they can but ultimately they have to carry the assumption that the pilot is competent enough to fly his aircraft safely and responsibly, which all too often isn't the case.
+BB992 ATC are the boss of us in controlled airspace. As this guy was flying IFR and started in controlled airspace he was under the instruction of ATC. Not sure he was in controlled airspace when the ATC controller asked him to climb to 14000 but as he had just gone from a controlled area then I guess the mindset may still have been in place that he should comply to requests. You are correct that it ultimately comes down to the pilot and indeed the pilot was to blame, all I'm saying is that this request from ATC was not helpful/safe given the known conditions.
I like to...- Maybe that' the case in the US. but in the EU we have to do one theory exam just for meteorology, two if you're going pro. I'm with you on the rest of your comment, that was my point.
Andy- ATC are not the master of us in controlled airspace, under any flight rules. You are allowed to deviate from ATC's instructions AND you're allowed to flat out refuse an instruction if you feel it affects your safety. They're on the ground. they don't know what's going on, and regulations take that into account. Ask "I like to fly stuff" here, ATC provide a service, nothing more. Of course the request was not helpful, but ATC doesn't know the pilot/aircraft/conditions. The system depends on proper communication between pilot and controller, and the pilot failed to deliver. Remember, as PIC you have the authority to do anything in the name of safety. You can, if you want, when number 10 in the traffic pattern, key in the mic and say "i'm now number 1 to land" and you'll be in your right to do that. Of course, the tricky bit afterwards is having to explain WHY you needed to be no1 to land!
No they are not. PIC is always the final authority as to the operation of the aircraft. ATC's job is to *coordinated* traffic flow. They work for the pilots, not the other way around. "Unable" is a perfectly good response to any instruction the PIC feels is unsafe or potentially unsafe. As they say, never let ATC fly your airplane.
Used to go out of Pittsburgh at night... And st the first sign of ice; i return n wait... Another glycol wash wait n go later; a b model caravan with all the goodies. Play it safe. I remember all those fed ex going down on the east coast one year....
"Look, i need to get home, ok. I know a cold front is coming in, that's no big deal. What IS a big deal, is if i have to explain to my wife and my boss, why I'm a day late getting home. Looking at the forecast, I see hot air on one side, then a 40 degree difference on the other, followed by 40mph winds in 5 different directions, with freezing temperatures, rain, some sleet here and there, and moderate to heavy snow. And that's just in the first 30 mile leg of my plotted flight plan.
But I've seen worse. I think I can make it. "
Not a pilot here... So should he go up or down at the beginning?
He should've gone down. ATC kept telling him to go up because they didn't know he had ice problems. He shoulda said "UNABLE. Got ice problems, need to go down". It almost sounds like he was embarrassed to admit his little airplane can't handle ice, when all these cool big jets can handle it no problem.
He should have waited for better weather. He was in a hurry and pushed his luck.