We progressively cross drill Lada brake rotors - what will happen?
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- Опубликовано: 4 окт 2024
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In this video we do a bit of custom cross drilling. Some of the results were fairly predictable, but at times we were genuinely surprised.
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Most of the loss in distance between tests could be attributed to the pads and rotors bedding together and working better after some stops. Brand new pads on brand new rotors always stop more poorly for a period of time and a few heat cycles before they're at peak performance.
That’s what I’m thinking.
Properly bedded brakes will transfer some material to the rotor face. I don't think there actually needs to be more friction. Lots of brake systems on a car are actually way oversized where you can lock the tire at will.
@@timothybayliss6680 Yeah, if the wheels can lock, the brake is powerful enough and the stopping distance depends on the rest (like weight and grip). The cooling advantage likely isn't appreciated at a highest temperature of 100-ish degrees Celcius. They would barely steam up water that hits them, nowhere near fading point.
@@Kalvinjj prolonged heat generates brake fade. Not common in a regular car unless you are severely speeding.
Get a car up to 100mph+ and firmly apply the brakes, before you can stop you will have to slam on the pedal to get wheel lockup. Do it again and you can push with ALL your might on the brakes and it feels like you lost 50% of your brake power and you can't lock up a wheel or activate abs if your life depended on it.
Brakes are certainly oversized for driving within the speed limits, but once you exceed that and really test the brakes you know how little energy they can dump. Which is how trucks get into trouble going down hills. Hot brakes barely work, and with a heavy vehicle it's even worse.
extra heat is good, too...b/c russia LOL
I suspect a lot of the initial decrease in braking distance had little to do with the holes and more to do with the pads bedding in.
Or the sharp edges or the holes digging into the pads better, while more uses create a rounder edge.
yeah and holes should be bored at a angle too so it dosnt dig the pads in and the air circulates outwards ,its more precise than what theyre doing
@@girlsdrinkfeck At an angle? Why? They're countersunk to avoid needing to drill them at angles.
With all the holes drilled the pads have less gripping force.
@@RenoBusdriver yep. Then add in even more surface area gone due to the large countersinks. Really wasn't much surface area left at all after that.
I'm impressed the rotors held with that many holes in them
Right^ they would explode if he keeps it up
i think the performance drop when you went over 100 holes is from the rotor not having as much mass to soak up the heat and experiencing brake fade earlier
Exactly this
I really enjoyed this video, it answered several of my "what if I just..." questions. The engineers have obviously discovered that there's a point where cross drilling and retaining available braking friction surface is maximized, as this experiment proves. I'm also fascinated by the chamfered slotted and cross drilled rotors. The slots allow pockets for the gasses to expand and evacuate without compromising the structural integrity of the rotor disc. Science around this is very interesting, thanks Garage 54!
OMG I'm getting sick of seeing people say the same thing. The surface area has nothing to do with the braking ability. It's about the mechanical advantage (ie how far away from center the pad is) and the temperature of the pad itself. Every brake pad has an optimal operating temperature. That's why when they added holes, it got better up to a point until they added too many holes. It has nothing to do with surface area, OBVIOUSLY. Otherwise the initial holes wouldn't have improved the performance.
To make it crystal clear, the additional holes resulted in less rotor mass to absorb heat. Thus, with too many holes, the pad gets too hot and becomes less effective.
One of the more practical experiments to date
When you take away rotor surface area (drilling holes) you take away the ability of the brake pad to have something to push against (called brake effort). As you found out, there was a test where a small amount of holes reached the maximum brake effort. All the best guys.
Less friction area
Also, it's now not a very smoothe surface, you can hear the clickity clack sounds, each hole can be compared to a bump or pothole in the road just like it makes your car bounce they are making the brake pad bounce and each bounce it makes it's not properly uniformally compressing the rotor as it should compounding with what you said above, so all around it's a bad idea.
Was about to say the same thing, glad others are mentioning this.
@@MidnightMarrow I've been an auto, jet engine mechanic and a metal machinist for 60 years. Yes, I'm 77 yrs. old. Been there , done that, got the "T" shirt as they say.
I'll bet bet a lot of subscribers don't know about mechanical things. They have other interests. All the best to ya'.
@@chieft3357 There was nothing you said that an 8yo wouldn't know. Dumping your 'credentials' is only more humorously pathetic.
I had drilled, slotted, and vented rotors on my dually. They lasted over 200k miles and that’s with pulling and hauling as a dually truck was intended for. I didn’t replace them with the same thing. I got regular vented rotors and they wasn’t the cheapest either. But they lasted half as long. Same as the pads. About half the life as before
I had a set for almost 250k on a s10. Replaced them when I saw cracks starting to form.
Yeah mine was starting to wear threw to the center vents. Still stopped fine just made noise. Never warped or any issues.
Mine only lasted 20K, towing a lot. Never going to waste money on it again.
@@BBb-hs9ud YOU MUST BE GHEYLORD
Heat kills things
Love the creativity, the ingenuity, and the the passion for Motorsport fun .. I really enjoy your channel !
Nothing like driving with Swiss cheese rotors 😂😂😂. You guys are great for showing crazy things people think of doing.
That was a good one! I had a feeling you'd hit the snow bank before the end of the video! I was hoping you'd do exactly as you did at the end and get multiple stops into the brakes.
those stopping tests would have to be repeated like two or three times to see brake fading and if it doesn't crack near those holes, Ive seen dozens of cars especially going sporty or on a track with cracked rotors near those holes, never seen any with full ones, but my guess is they will cool down harder due to limited airflow and dust on them
You're talking to a bunch of Russians though. Science = out the (broken) window.
The fact that you did all that work in the field is impressive.
Brakes are converters of car energy due to friction to heat. Better heat disipate, better are brakes, but the more holes, the smaller the temperature capacity and friction surface so brakes are less efficient. U need to balance friction temperature capicity and heat dicipate, to have the highest friction, highest heat dicipate and not loosing the temperature capicity( this parameter is responsible for multiple braking).
yeah its better if they added heatsink fins to the rear or cut into the rear to make some grooves
🇧🇷 I really love these crazy tests you do 😁 the good thing is that it clears up a lot of people's doubts 😃
72 holes was the magic number.
My concerns would start going to the structural integrity of the rotors at some point. Yes, they are hardened, but they will eventually break. But it was a great endeavor.
Was thinking the same
Brake rotors are hardened?
Hardened brake rotors? Wait, it's a Lada.
11:50 Counted 348 holes drilled.
How many drill bits they broke I wonder
thank you for counting and also, whyyyyy
This is a demonstration of unsprung weight and thermal mass.
Unsprung weight: weight of components below the suspension that rotate with the wheels (includes rims and tires). The lighter you make this, the more dramatic the results (each lbs is about equivalent to removing 10 lbs of weight anywhere else)
Thermal mass: the amount of mass on an object capable of resistance absorbing and dispersing heat through itself. Think radiators for CPU cooling. If you apply 100 watts of input to 100 grams of mass, it will be cooler overall than applying that same 100 watts to 90 grams of mass because there is less material to hold the heat.
I'm not 100% sure I was accurate, so if you're interested in these ideas I suggest you go research them yourself because sometimes you might find a secret interest, you never know.
It's important to note that the operating temperature of the brake pad is critical in how the brake pad performs. That is, with a normal brake pad that is designed for everyday driving, the brakes are expected to operate in a lower temperature band, and therefore will benefit from the rotor having less mass to shed heat more quickly. That's why it initially started stopping better.
For a race vehicle, when the brakes are expected to be operating regularly at much higher temperatures, those pads will NEED more heat to operate properly, and will therefore perform better with a rotor that absorbs more heat. In fact, under race conditions, having mass to absorb that heat is critical, so drilling lots of holes will only result in worse braking performance.
It's interesting to see this test, because they got to a point where they drilled so many holes that even stock brake pads eventually performed worse.
I've noticed that the projects you have taken on and the ideas you've tested in the past few Years has progressively gotten better. Keep up the good work, I love seeing your ridiculous ideas and I feel like I can clearly see how much more competent you've all gotten over the Years (that's not to say you were ever incompetent!)
They should make a 'race car on a budget' with loads of stock lada parts to see what slightly improved stock parts can do to a cars performance
There is a "Goldilocks Zone" for through-drilled rotors. The holes allow gasses to expand within the voids and escape as the rotor spins. Too many holes removes mass, which sinks heat. Finding the optimal number of holes takes some testing, and food results can be achieved.
Lol it needs to be done in a "lab" situation to get real results, have them sit under load for xxx of time and have a stationary mounted thermal checker pointed on the same position and show the differences in the graphs like a dyno tune :D pretty fun all the same!
Being a motorcyclist the major benefit for us is improved wet wether breaking as the water gets stepped into the drillings. Wobbels the mad Aussie
"They really look like meat grinding plates"
Well now we know where you gotta go next.
It worked fine with the first 3 sets of holes. Because there was sufficient surface area for the pads to hold on too , more holes less surface area for the pads.
I don't know what's more impressive, the braking results or the car still running during the testing!
I would like to know what the rotors weight is after this compared to stock
god i love these experiments
I must say I never thought I would get this hooked
My car (MK5 GTI) has non-ventilated cross driller rotors in the rear. The rear rotors are oversized enough, and being a front drive car, it doesn't need ventilated rotors, and you have to go into the high end aftermarket rotors to find ventilated rears. Tho to be fair as well, the stock rotors aren't drilled at all, but I have mid range aftermarket rotors intended for use on an Audi TT. (Zimmerman sport)
The most surfaces you take off is the less surface the brake pad has press on hola from Mexico
Tests have shown that cross drilled are not as effective as slotted. The gasses produced by the pads dont have anywhere to go. Also, it has less metal to soak up the temperature, thus brake fade will start sooner. This is from a brake manufacturer i used to deal with.
I love the cute drill setup 😂 a battary as stool small press drill ideel
i liked that too
the montage at 2:00 goes unbelievably hard
Everybody is so wrong here. No top level racing series use drilled rotors (F1, WTCC, BTCC, LEMANS, etc). At most they have small J slots or just flat discs.
They don't want to lose any brake performance with less surface area and less rotor mass. Modern brake pads do not offgas like old pads used to.
You're also removing metal and reducing the specific heat capacity of the rotor which is why its quicker to heat up.
Most roters I have seen have had a second rotor that had holes in the sides with some joining metal to make square holes on the sides. So you have two smooth surfaces for the break pads.
Now I have a question, what if you drilled the holes out of 45° angle in either direction and maybe one with a 45° angle in both directions
Solid!
Top KEK!
Peace be with you.
I love these guys and this channel :)
By the end of the video I was more interested on the BRAND of "drill bit" they were using!!! 😂😂😂
Works up to one hole every half-pad width. Beyond that, you start losing too much surface area and heat soak capacity.
Your new test car is a real beauty! Did you trade a screwdriver or a pair of sunglasses for it?
It's obvious to me that the ultimate brake rotor would be a transparent one. Garage 54 has repeatedly proven that transparent auto parts are superior in all respects to opaque auto parts.
Making a clear rotor should be much less difficult than making a clear engine block so you may as well just do it so we can all learn how much better they will work than conventional, old-school (boring) steel rotors.
Enjoying your show here in the US with my son. Haven't laughed this much since we used to watch MYTHBUSTERS and they had a life sized dummy named TED: It was variously detonaTED, assassinaTED, exploDED, etc....from cannon to cars, and everything in between!! LOL! BTW, a friend told me how happily she "defrosted" her new car windshield with hot water; it worked for her and her dad was furious! Keep up the good work, gentlemen!!
The holes were drilled straight across the solid rotors, what if they were drilled at a slight angle to create a fan blade type of effect pulling cool air from inside the wheel arch, passing thru the brake rotor and being forçed towards the outside of the wheel...forçed air draft removes more heat
That would for sure crack the rotor
Great Test!
You need 3 at 5 test for promedy. And news brake pads for test whit new hols in disc.
For science!
You guys are f'n ridiculous - i love it
Very interesting demonstration of the law of diminishing returns
should have only done 1 wheel at a time then you could compare sides equally, temperature wise and the better braked wheel would have pulled to one side
I wonder if they realise as brand new brake pads and rotor go through the initial wear in stage they actually begin to perform better.
Excellent video
Wonder if this cross drilling brake rotors would be applicable for drum brakes?
@John MHGood suggestion on the drum brakes. 👈😁
I love how you can hear the car crapping out as it approaches the braking zone.
Love you guys all the way from Mexico
I love when Vlad said I thought I said stop
10:17 POV: you're this man lunch and you're almost falling
enough holes helps in releasing the gases release between pads and rotors while braking and it makes the pads gripping the rotor better. helps in reducing the heat better while releasing the brake and cruise.
too much holes means less surface contact between pads and rotors, less material to grip.
The idea of cross drilled rotors is to allow gasses to flow out through the centre of the rotor. It won’t work on non vented or solid rotors as there is pad on either side of the hole. Cross drilled rotors get rid of gasses more efficiently than slotted rotors at the expense of structural integrity. You will find that drilled rotors get replaced frequently in motorsports as they will start to crack at the edge of the holes because of continual head cycles and mechanical stress.
“Let’s remove the rotors and continue drilling” lmao
I wonder if drilling drums would have any effect?
It s even more amazing that Lada reaches 70
70 kph
you made cooling channels for brake rotors xD quite clever
Omg. I can't believe this. It's still stopping sooner! 🤣👌
This is giving me major "license test in Gran Tourismo" vibes
seems like a few holes shorten the stopping distance and cool the discs but too many and it makes the stopping distance greater
Need to measure how much quickly it cools more precisely vs the og rotor. They tend to get hot but dissipate heat quicker so by the time you're at the next turn and getting down on them they've cooled quicker. They hold some heat for optimal performance but dissipates heat quicker to combat brake fade like you saw with the last few runs at high speed and lots of holes drilled
Man does it ever warm up there?
Yo lo hice con discos macizos y lo que pasa es que hacían un ruido como de matraca, con el tiempo entendí que con la temperatura se dilataba el aire dentro de los orificios y ese era en ruido, como pequeñas explosiones, aunque parecía que se había rajado el rotor, y volví a ponerle rotores normales ya que tampoco se notaba una gran diferencia
Gotta love all these P.O.S cars they use 😅
I just can't BELIEVE how GOOD that Samara SOUNDS 🤩🤩🤩
The reason the stopping distance got shorter but the temperature went up is due to the law of conservation of energy. You are changing the forward motion into heat when you apply the brakes. So the faster you can change the motion to heat, the faster you stop.
Less material means getting up to temperature much more rapidly as well
Drilling brake disks aids cooling but reduces grip surface area the sweet spot can be calculated.
I thought the holes made them grip better by having holes to squeeze into
Like a texture on the surface same with slotted ones idk
@@chrissanders2562nah it's for cooling. They use them on race cars as they are breaking at high speeds and sharply as a regular disk would likely get damaged as ofcourse metal is weaker once it gets hot.
@@chrissanders2562 it allows gasses from the hot pads to escape, same as grooves, not needed in normal driving as the pads don't get hot enough to emit gasses, apparently the gasses get trapped behind the pads and reduce braking
Can you try brakes with Teflon plastic. Put petrol,gas in the oil to see how much more power it gets.
Notification squad Have a nice weekend!🔥🔥🔥
you too, mate!
@@billynomates920 Thank you so much!😎👍🏼
I wonder if BRIMBO got their start this way? Ether way, very COoL. Looks like a Lotta' fun. The last time I was this excited to see holes was on my last "3rd date" p.s. I didn't know about spraying black, mat paint prior to temp measuring. 500 points awarded to the team!! Cheers from the other side of Earth
Holes are not for cooling. They are to eliminate brake fading. Gas between pad and rotor can escape through the holes
If you have phobia of holes, but are still watching this video, chapeau, you're a true fan
Drilling in the field??! Props!
11:50 i counted the holes. you drilled 357 holes in there
wow
I see people guess 348, 349 but im just waiting on a confirmation cause im not counting 😂😂
As I understand it drilled brake rotors is to give better breaking when the disks gets wet with mud, as I understand it only something used off-road as it give no benefit in other situations.
Should have left it a set time or driven back around without using the brakes and measured the temp again each time to see how much it cooled each time. With less material it’s going to heat up faster, but more surface area it’s going to cool faster too. Idea is that the brakes cool faster between uses on a track for instance. Also, cross drilled discs are more effecting on vented discs, as they are shaped to pull air through them as the wheel spins.
crosdrilling means not sinking the holes! they have to be sharp to prevent wedging the air between the disk and the pads, they lifting on air film when there are to many holes . you created a trustbearing like a ship propellor bearing. my motercycle has stainless disks with holes to prevent loss of breaking in rain. great job boring so many holes! keep on the good work I am enjoying it very much.
Это был интересный эксперимент. Спасибо за предоставление результатов теста торможения. Мое заключение состоит в том, что некоторые отверстия могут помочь с краткосрочным охлаждением после тяжелого торможения. Но для достаточной производительности торможения необходима определенная площадь поверхности.
I guess it reveals a lot on brake technology when u see the brake system on a motogp bike... it has no holes. The carbon bakes wont overheat so i guess there is no need to ventilate and therefore max contact with the disc for most stopping power.
What about an elastomeric mounted roll-cage within the car frame that moves forward, independently, after the initial collision.
This will remove much g-shock from the passengers.
6 in. of travel should be cool.
Try it with vented disc
Less material, same work = obviously higher temperature. What about the holes in the discs? Thanks to this, they cool down faster before the next braking.
The real benefit is in cooling off quickly while still moving. Coming to a complete stop negates the whole purpose. Also there is obviously a point of diminishing returns.
ooof lovely sills on that motor!!!!!🤣🤣🤣
More holes more efficient slowing via debris dispersal. The energy has to go somewhere that's why high heat and decrease of stopping performance at a certain point.
More holes... = less contact area....hence longer stopping..
The rotors have a certain amount of holes before they get beyond the benefit of more power
That's not true actually.
If the contact area is smaller, the calipers will exert a greater pressure on the disks(since the surface area is smaller), so the breaking force will be the same.
@@jort93z ya. C.f. and all that
and now try to make DIY slits on the Brake Rotors like the EBC or ATE Powerdiscs have 👌 this works a way better and you don't get cracks between the holes on the brake rotors like you get on drilled ones.....
You should try drilling at 5 or 10 degrees angle.
That's why you put on harder brake pads with drilled discs to stop brake fade.