I do find it funny how the negative reviews of this film from critics' all seem to refer to Joker 2018 as some kind of prestigious and acclaimed film, when in 2018 those same reviewers were slating it and that's what gave it a 59/100 metacritic score. Film media clearly has some kind of an issue with this character and/or the message of the film, which isn't surprising as both films imply heavily that the media is a place for bullies, liars and scummy behaviour towards people, especially those like Arthur. Or perhaps they're just being typically virtuous and not wanting to speak positively of something that they feel could inspire someone to go on a Joker-like rampage, that was their worry about the first film after all. That being said though, Folie a Deux not only disappointed critics but now has an equally if not lower score from general audiences, but I think the reasons are totally different. Perhaps people were under the impression that we were being given an origin story of a beloved character, which would make sense as to why this left a sour taste to some audiences. But there's also the fact that a lot of people, and as Lock mentioned mainly comic book fans, would NEVER be willing to accept a musical. You only have to read through user reviews and comments on social media to see the majority of people whining that their beloved masculine icon JOKER is suddenly singing and dancing across the screen and they just cannot comprehend or accept it. I think the people in the audience who did like Folie A Duex are one - mature enough to watch a film with musical elements without it harming their identity, and two - never put so much weight into the fact that the first film might not actually go somewhere like eventually reaching a full-fledged comic-book style batman story. It just seemed obvious that was never going to happen. I don't understand the importance of having to have a disclaimer of "this isn't the real joker, everyone, calm down!". Why does it matter? Why was it set in stone that this world had become the same world we've seen in the batman universe for the last 85 years ? Anyway sorry for the rant. I loved this video and hearing you guys speak so open mindedly about the film despite your disagreements. Keep it up !
33:21 its because DC's state right now can NOT handle a movie like this, they just killed their main universe and their giving ppl endings like this? Its not hard to understand wb killed the dc brand recognition and trust
It’s weird how much I agree with Matty 😅 every single review has been what they hate and the way you processed the movie is exactly how I did which is why I really enjoyed it. The first movie showed how Society fails mental illness and it felt like the second movie showed how the System fails mental illness
Speaking as someone who didnt like the first film, I think a lot of audiences went into it expecting at the very least it would be a fun and chaotic film in a twisted sense like Heath Ledger's Joker performance, but instead it kinda ended up just being pure misery porn with no silver lining to it. Now that the false expectations are known, nobody wants to get duped again and all thats left are the actual fans of the first who want to go see the sequel, but even then the cards are stacked against it because a lot of people felt it was just a self contained story that already made its point. So it has a lot going against it.
I think people were just upset that this joker is not only dead but isnt even really joker. Its just a trick on the audience when they already had u believing hes joker in a whole other movie. But interesting take on a joker story
Rotten Tomatoes isn't an aggregate score guys (unlike Metacritic) ... it's a percentage of positive vs negative reviews. So a 38% means that 38% of reviewers liked it.
Phoenix can actually sing pretty well, I'd say add Walk The Line to the review list eventually. I'm going to see this and I wasn't expecting it to necessarily be a great film, I'll go in with no expectations and see what I think.
This movie is not absolutely terrible. It's just utterly bizarre. The reason people don't like it is because they went in expecting a Joker/Harley story of them breaking out of Arkham and fucking shit up. Arthur would develop his Joker persona further until he completely becomes the clown prince of crime that we all know. Basically jus continuing the story from Joker 2019. But instead what we got was a movie where in the beginning Arthur has reverted back to his depressed and low self esteem self for some inexplicable reason. Then he tries to be the Joker for like 10 minutes in the court room while giving a weird cringe southern accent. Then Gary cries at him, he gets assaulted by guards and is just like "nah guys, just kidding, I was actually never really Joker". Then he gets stabbed by character that is supposedly the real Joker but he's not in any of the movie prior to that scene. That's why people don't like this movie. Al they had to do was just continue the story but instead they told the audience "fuck you".
I think an easy solution to the problem with this movie is that if Arthur was the Copycat Joker, not the Original Joker that gets a Copycat. Arthur being inspired by the original Joker in the first movie, and then realizing he's not cut out for it in the second movie would do wonders for it. Then Arthur being killed by the original, or another Copycat Joker would just be better for the comic book movie audience. Also fully removing the scene of it being implied Arthur gets sexually assaulted would help, because it is kinda out of place.
Matty, your (now deleted) tweet made me want to check this out. And you failed me 😅 I loved Joker 1, but this went The Matrix 4 route of basically telling people who wanted more to fuck off. The final scene was downright demeaning. To Lock’s point, Harley being introduced fast works to what was said about Arthur by the woman from the first movie. That he’s so desperate for love that he immediately falls for Harley. You actually do see him pull away from her when he learns the truth at first. Hence his illusion about being shot by her on stage. For the musical segments, I feel like they didn’t add anything to the movie except runtime. I get that it’s in his head but you don’t have to bash me over the head over and over. You guys said it best at the end, this movie didn’t have to be made.
In a way, the movie isn’t really named Joker tbh. “Folie a Deux” means a delusion shared by two people, so the movie was named exactly as it should’ve been in my opinion. The delusion was shared not by Joker and Harley, but by the audience and Joker.
consider the fact, that its not without precedent, that filmmakers, writers etc have spoken out against the interpretation of their respective movies, take fight club, for instance, from which many young men took a similar message and arguably missed the same point- or more recently, breaking bad- phillips just went one, or rather several steps, step further, because not only did he attach an original IP to it, but during folie a deux, theres several moments, that lead the audience on a bit.... i saw people walk out, during different points in the movie and though i think, it was mostly due to them, having had enough of the singing portions, it was clear to me, that many thought, until arthurs confession in court, even up to the prison rape, that this will bring out joker/they will get what they fucking deserve.... and as a fan myself, i can understand why some might feel righteously pissed, it didnt happen, but also, because they probably dont want to admit, they were invested, up to a point, in the now so popular narrative of critics, that it hates its fans....its made really clear, that this regards only a certain sub-set of the first jokers fan base and it mostly gets addressed directly, after the court explosion.... not a whole lot of time is devoted, to showing how unhinged some of his followers are, so i dont buy into the movie existing purely out of spite, i think phillips may have actually trusted his audience too much, because he gives several chances for an out, only to pull you back in- the unfortunate thing about that is, that it really only works once, thankfully it worked for me, that first time and that i rewatched the movie today- i think some fans are taking it so personal, that they take too much of the narrative, at face value, theres a lot more going on here, underneath what some assume is the reality, within the movie.... i can explain, for anyone who is interested, but for now, let me just say, that neither the argument that this movie exists only to spite people (it was joaquins first oscar win and his first sequel and he wouldnt have done it, if he hadnt known about the risk- also he seemingly opted out of another movie and is getting sued for it, he may spend a good chunk of his paycheck and the guy still has a growing family, too), as a cynical cash grab, its simply too big of an outlier and the claim, that the character of arthur ends, exactly where he started, really makes me question if we watched the same movie
Liked this better then the first one! Its a really interesting movie that is getting overlooked by an angry audience who is annoyed that a movie didn’t cater to their expectations
to the point of harley being a much better singer. that could be intentional to convey that he puts her on a pedestal. but it could also be because lady gaga lol
One thing both Joker films struggled with a lot was conveying any semblance of nuance with the themes and topics it wants to portray and seemingly have a conversation about. Arthur's life is miserable beyond compare. How is that shown? Well let's just have a bunch of kids relentlessly wail on him in the opening of the movie for no other reason than to make him look miserable and pitious. And on top of that make sure he has a horribly abusive mom, is neglected by social services and made fun of by basically everyone he meets. Then he goes to prison, and how do they convey how much his life doesn't change? Well not only is he going to be chased around by the same clique of guards making fun of him, but one night they'll just bring him into the bathroom stalls and r*pe him until he goes catatonic. It's like almost comical how much these movies try to sell you on the fact a man who's already clearly mentally disturbed just has all these other things piled on top of him, and it's the key thing that makes this a less poignant or thoughtful portrayal of mental health and the struggles associated with it than something like King of Comedy which it's so obviously riffing on
Going into the movie I fully expected the movie to not be as good as the original and that a lot of people weren’t going to like it. But I did not expect everyone to pretend it’s offensively horrible like madame web.
EDIT: after 15 min non-spoiler talk, matty's points make me actually want to see this movie way more than i did before. "its a simple surface level movie" and then "harley is the audience, and this about fandom" ok i mean that already seems beyond the surface to me. i will wait unti lthis movie shows up somwwhere i'im already paying for . not gonna spend extra for it. concept of "Here's a world where u have joker, but no batman to keep him under control or to counteract him" doesn't appeal to me that much.
I understand this movie, because I DO think people were wrong for revering him. If the makers felt strongly enough about the reaction to the first film, I can see their intentions to make a film pushing the audience back down for praising him. Ballsy, but I understand
Im heart broken to say the least...these are two of my favorite characters..... Okay now seriously release the ayer cut cause aint no way its worse than this
I'm still not interested in watching this movie. I'm so about character driven movies, but when it comes to comic book characters, i kinda want three hero fantasy. I was cool with joker 1, because i could see the lead in, this movie absolutely should have been toted as not a comic book movie.
I’ve noticed that people fundamentally misunderstood the first film. Arthur was never going to be THE JOKER. His actions inspired the Joker revolution and may inspire the actual Joker to rise up but Arthur WAS ALWAYS just a deeply disturbed individual that was failed by society and our institutions. I agree that this movie didn’t need to exist because all it really does is confirm what was intended with the first film.
Hey Matt, nobody, and I mean NOBODY gives AF about this film. Whoever recommended this to you is either really daft or malicious. There are SOOOO many better films.
This channel also reviews some new releases, like Alien Romulus, Borderlands and Deadpool & Wolverine. Joker 2 just released, and it is a hot topic, so that's why they are reviewing it.
Really enjoyed listening to you two chat about this one.
And it was super refreshing to hear from somebody who had a different view of this film too👍
I do find it funny how the negative reviews of this film from critics' all seem to refer to Joker 2018 as some kind of prestigious and acclaimed film, when in 2018 those same reviewers were slating it and that's what gave it a 59/100 metacritic score. Film media clearly has some kind of an issue with this character and/or the message of the film, which isn't surprising as both films imply heavily that the media is a place for bullies, liars and scummy behaviour towards people, especially those like Arthur. Or perhaps they're just being typically virtuous and not wanting to speak positively of something that they feel could inspire someone to go on a Joker-like rampage, that was their worry about the first film after all.
That being said though, Folie a Deux not only disappointed critics but now has an equally if not lower score from general audiences, but I think the reasons are totally different. Perhaps people were under the impression that we were being given an origin story of a beloved character, which would make sense as to why this left a sour taste to some audiences. But there's also the fact that a lot of people, and as Lock mentioned mainly comic book fans, would NEVER be willing to accept a musical. You only have to read through user reviews and comments on social media to see the majority of people whining that their beloved masculine icon JOKER is suddenly singing and dancing across the screen and they just cannot comprehend or accept it.
I think the people in the audience who did like Folie A Duex are one - mature enough to watch a film with musical elements without it harming their identity, and two - never put so much weight into the fact that the first film might not actually go somewhere like eventually reaching a full-fledged comic-book style batman story. It just seemed obvious that was never going to happen. I don't understand the importance of having to have a disclaimer of "this isn't the real joker, everyone, calm down!". Why does it matter? Why was it set in stone that this world had become the same world we've seen in the batman universe for the last 85 years ?
Anyway sorry for the rant. I loved this video and hearing you guys speak so open mindedly about the film despite your disagreements. Keep it up !
Finally, Lock, someone who gets it
33:21 its because DC's state right now can NOT handle a movie like this, they just killed their main universe and their giving ppl endings like this? Its not hard to understand wb killed the dc brand recognition and trust
It’s weird how much I agree with Matty 😅 every single review has been what they hate and the way you processed the movie is exactly how I did which is why I really enjoyed it. The first movie showed how Society fails mental illness and it felt like the second movie showed how the System fails mental illness
Speaking as someone who didnt like the first film, I think a lot of audiences went into it expecting at the very least it would be a fun and chaotic film in a twisted sense like Heath Ledger's Joker performance, but instead it kinda ended up just being pure misery porn with no silver lining to it. Now that the false expectations are known, nobody wants to get duped again and all thats left are the actual fans of the first who want to go see the sequel, but even then the cards are stacked against it because a lot of people felt it was just a self contained story that already made its point. So it has a lot going against it.
Matty has to watch taxi driver
I think people were just upset that this joker is not only dead but isnt even really joker. Its just a trick on the audience when they already had u believing hes joker in a whole other movie. But interesting take on a joker story
Rotten Tomatoes isn't an aggregate score guys (unlike Metacritic) ... it's a percentage of positive vs negative reviews. So a 38% means that 38% of reviewers liked it.
This was great, thank you guys
Finally someone that likes the movie, was beginning to think I was alone
Phoenix can actually sing pretty well, I'd say add Walk The Line to the review list eventually. I'm going to see this and I wasn't expecting it to necessarily be a great film, I'll go in with no expectations and see what I think.
Musical vote when?
I just wanna know how you got Paul Giamatti to come in here to review this 😅
This movie is not absolutely terrible. It's just utterly bizarre. The reason people don't like it is because they went in expecting a Joker/Harley story of them breaking out of Arkham and fucking shit up. Arthur would develop his Joker persona further until he completely becomes the clown prince of crime that we all know. Basically jus continuing the story from Joker 2019. But instead what we got was a movie where in the beginning Arthur has reverted back to his depressed and low self esteem self for some inexplicable reason. Then he tries to be the Joker for like 10 minutes in the court room while giving a weird cringe southern accent. Then Gary cries at him, he gets assaulted by guards and is just like "nah guys, just kidding, I was actually never really Joker". Then he gets stabbed by character that is supposedly the real Joker but he's not in any of the movie prior to that scene. That's why people don't like this movie. Al they had to do was just continue the story but instead they told the audience "fuck you".
I think an easy solution to the problem with this movie is that if Arthur was the Copycat Joker, not the Original Joker that gets a Copycat.
Arthur being inspired by the original Joker in the first movie, and then realizing he's not cut out for it in the second movie would do wonders for it.
Then Arthur being killed by the original, or another Copycat Joker would just be better for the comic book movie audience.
Also fully removing the scene of it being implied Arthur gets sexually assaulted would help, because it is kinda out of place.
Matty, your (now deleted) tweet made me want to check this out. And you failed me 😅
I loved Joker 1, but this went The Matrix 4 route of basically telling people who wanted more to fuck off. The final scene was downright demeaning.
To Lock’s point, Harley being introduced fast works to what was said about Arthur by the woman from the first movie. That he’s so desperate for love that he immediately falls for Harley. You actually do see him pull away from her when he learns the truth at first. Hence his illusion about being shot by her on stage.
For the musical segments, I feel like they didn’t add anything to the movie except runtime. I get that it’s in his head but you don’t have to bash me over the head over and over.
You guys said it best at the end, this movie didn’t have to be made.
In a way, the movie isn’t really named Joker tbh. “Folie a Deux” means a delusion shared by two people, so the movie was named exactly as it should’ve been in my opinion. The delusion was shared not by Joker and Harley, but by the audience and Joker.
consider the fact, that its not without precedent, that filmmakers, writers etc have spoken out against the interpretation of their respective movies, take fight club, for instance, from which many young men took a similar message and arguably missed the same point- or more recently, breaking bad- phillips just went one, or rather several steps, step further, because not only did he attach an original IP to it, but during folie a deux, theres several moments, that lead the audience on a bit.... i saw people walk out, during different points in the movie and though i think, it was mostly due to them, having had enough of the singing portions, it was clear to me, that many thought, until arthurs confession in court, even up to the prison rape, that this will bring out joker/they will get what they fucking deserve....
and as a fan myself, i can understand why some might feel righteously pissed, it didnt happen, but also, because they probably dont want to admit, they were invested, up to a point, in the now so popular narrative of critics, that it hates its fans....its made really clear, that this regards only a certain sub-set of the first jokers fan base and it mostly gets addressed directly, after the court explosion....
not a whole lot of time is devoted, to showing how unhinged some of his followers are, so i dont buy into the movie existing purely out of spite, i think phillips may have actually trusted his audience too much, because he gives several chances for an out, only to pull you back in- the unfortunate thing about that is, that it really only works once, thankfully it worked for me, that first time and that i rewatched the movie today- i think some fans are taking it so personal, that they take too much of the narrative, at face value, theres a lot more going on here, underneath what some assume is the reality, within the movie....
i can explain, for anyone who is interested, but for now, let me just say, that neither the argument that this movie exists only to spite people (it was joaquins first oscar win and his first sequel and he wouldnt have done it, if he hadnt known about the risk- also he seemingly opted out of another movie and is getting sued for it, he may spend a good chunk of his paycheck and the guy still has a growing family, too), as a cynical cash grab, its simply too big of an outlier and the claim, that the character of arthur ends, exactly where he started, really makes me question if we watched the same movie
Liked this better then the first one! Its a really interesting movie that is getting overlooked by an angry audience who is annoyed that a movie didn’t cater to their expectations
to the point of harley being a much better singer. that could be intentional to convey that he puts her on a pedestal. but it could also be because lady gaga lol
One thing both Joker films struggled with a lot was conveying any semblance of nuance with the themes and topics it wants to portray and seemingly have a conversation about. Arthur's life is miserable beyond compare. How is that shown? Well let's just have a bunch of kids relentlessly wail on him in the opening of the movie for no other reason than to make him look miserable and pitious. And on top of that make sure he has a horribly abusive mom, is neglected by social services and made fun of by basically everyone he meets. Then he goes to prison, and how do they convey how much his life doesn't change? Well not only is he going to be chased around by the same clique of guards making fun of him, but one night they'll just bring him into the bathroom stalls and r*pe him until he goes catatonic. It's like almost comical how much these movies try to sell you on the fact a man who's already clearly mentally disturbed just has all these other things piled on top of him, and it's the key thing that makes this a less poignant or thoughtful portrayal of mental health and the struggles associated with it than something like King of Comedy which it's so obviously riffing on
I'm going to have to give it a try
Going into the movie I fully expected the movie to not be as good as the original and that a lot of people weren’t going to like it. But I did not expect everyone to pretend it’s offensively horrible like madame web.
I had low expectations but now I'm just really not interested. I do like Mattys take though.
This is what I call a plane movie. Save it for a flight.
EDIT: after 15 min non-spoiler talk, matty's points make me actually want to see this movie way more than i did before.
"its a simple surface level movie" and then "harley is the audience, and this about fandom" ok i mean that already seems beyond the surface to me. i will wait unti lthis movie shows up somwwhere i'im already paying for . not gonna spend extra for it. concept of "Here's a world where u have joker, but no batman to keep him under control or to counteract him" doesn't appeal to me that much.
I understand this movie, because I DO think people were wrong for revering him. If the makers felt strongly enough about the reaction to the first film, I can see their intentions to make a film pushing the audience back down for praising him. Ballsy, but I understand
Matty liked it💀
Im heart broken to say the least...these are two of my favorite characters.....
Okay now seriously release the ayer cut cause aint no way its worse than this
Sounds kinda cool to me based off the spoiler reviews
I'm still not interested in watching this movie. I'm so about character driven movies, but when it comes to comic book characters, i kinda want three hero fantasy. I was cool with joker 1, because i could see the lead in, this movie absolutely should have been toted as not a comic book movie.
I’ve noticed that people fundamentally misunderstood the first film. Arthur was never going to be THE JOKER. His actions inspired the Joker revolution and may inspire the actual Joker to rise up but Arthur WAS ALWAYS just a deeply disturbed individual that was failed by society and our institutions. I agree that this movie didn’t need to exist because all it really does is confirm what was intended with the first film.
So the movie continues with the trend of Hollywood wanting to lecture it's audience. No, thanks.
Loved joker 2
Hey Matt, nobody, and I mean NOBODY gives AF about this film. Whoever recommended this to you is either really daft or malicious. There are SOOOO many better films.
This channel also reviews some new releases, like Alien Romulus, Borderlands and Deadpool & Wolverine.
Joker 2 just released, and it is a hot topic, so that's why they are reviewing it.
It’s a new release, what are you talking about?
I must be a greek who blinded the cyclops