A police agency I worked for, and was on the training cadre, in the early 2000's tried this idea. We had a two hours a week of defense training, wrestling, boxing, mau thai, jujitsu, etc. It was free and officers who attended the two hour class got three hours of comp time. Still no one showed up. As a trainer it was very frustrating. I think we were ahead of our time with the idea. I've tried to get this started back up with my new agency, but have not had luck. I hope this interview will help.
Attend the training or lose your job. Just like anybody else. Unfortunately police unions have so much power, they can absolve their members from disciplinary actions so well known, and used, on the rest of us.
@@_SeeYouSpaceCowboy Because of the nature of financial Markets Our whole way of life Balancing the cost of saving the lives of hardened criminals as opposed to using the money for other more pressing issues more deserving endeavors
I feel like the reason Sam called this an infomercial is because Gracie keeps saying 'Now look at this, Sam!' (infomercials often have the demonstrator use the other person's name when they're making points). But in all seriousness, this was EXCELLENT!
He said it's an "infomercial" because we have the perfect system of techniques, philosophy and mindset to help officers deal with the type of challenges they are currently facing and it's being outlined thoroughly here. Much like how the original UFC (created by Reners father, Rorion) was only created to be an "infomercial " for how gracie or Brazilian jiu-jitsu was most effective in a real fight against all other forms of martial arts. Respect.
@@PresidentialWinner What an astute realization! Yes, people use names for lots of reasons. My point was merely that Sam's point that the episode comes off as an infomercial was accurate not only in content but also tone...especially when you factor in his guest's enthusiasm. Personally, I love infomercials.
I started jiu jitsu after this podcast. I've been on the fence for a while and finally did it. It's been a tough week but I am slowly getting there. Thank you Sam and Renee, I hope you get to read this!
@@MrCBTman it's a joke ;) - more or less Gracie was just super amped up yelling about how bad the training cops have is for 2 hours while Sam tried to get some words in. nom sayin?
@Tronald Dump I get what you are saying, but I think there may be a protective factor (against police brutality), beyond those tools you suggest, that comes with the skillset, community, and philosophy of jujitsu. I think they should both make the changes Rener advocates and (where feasible) make weapon replacements along the lines of what you're suggesting. This problem is obviously worth spending a lot of time, money, and effort on.
@Tronald Dump I’m really surprised their isn’t a better non-lethal weapon than a taser. They fail for a lot of reasons and they also require a fairly narrow range of circumstances to work.
@@franciscoulloa3943 once you get used to 1.5, 1.75 & 2.0 speed it’s almost impossible to listen to things in normal speed, just too damn slow…….except Rener Gracie haha
"As long as there's hope for escape, there will be savagery from the suspect." I never thought I'd hear a conversation between Rener and Sam, but it was fantastic
Engaging in BJJ seems like a terrible thing for an officer to engage in while on active duty. Sure, it could help you escape or control an assailant, but if you're grappling while carrying a loaded gun, you already f-ed up. Especially if there are multiple suspects.
Agree bjj is a great tool defensibly but to grapple with a loaded gun is a no go, I had a swat officer in my bjj class and we asked him how many times he had used bjj in his job, he said never.
@@jimbojones4164 When you put a suspect in handcuffs and they resist you’re doing BJJ. It’s good to know. Every cop I knew who did it was more effective.
I always find Sams stance on violence, perplexing. I grew up in a very violent neighborhood, and I had to ask myself one key question: “Do I believe in violence (to solve problems)? My answer is no. I don’t want to have anything to do with it. However, I believe in capital punishment, of murderers, done in a humane way. I think our prison system is violent, and does nothing to rehabilitate, just to punish. But... again...I don’t believe in violence. I guess Sam does.
The only conclusion that can be drawn from this is that policing needs improvement and improvement requires better funding. Unfortunately, our country thinks it’s one or the other. They want better police, with even less resources
When it comes to cops and the problems many in society are having with cops, some self-defense training is not the answer, no matter how good those technics may be. For one, many in society are out on the street protesting a cop who following correct police procedure, killed a suspect while that suspect was in the act of attacking a third person with a weapon. So the problem is not the cop, it is those members of society who feel a need to protest. How about when a cop runs into a suspect skilled in hand-to-hand combat technics or an armed suspect? I can see where good self-defense training would have benefits in some situations. Maybe that's better than nothing.
Let’s get Andrew Yang (who believes all police need BJJ training) elected mayor of NYC and see how quickly he can get that misdirected body hold legislation reformed. Unintended consequences are everywhere and need pragmatic operators to go in and weed them out ASAP before more hurt 😔 and mistrust is sown. 🧢 #YangGangForever
I like yang, but he went anti trump and jumped on the woke bandwagon nonsense. He kind of broke my heart and let me down. Ron Paul has always kept it real and doesn’t get swayed by the tide of politics
Always been a logical liberal so maybe I missed where anything about Yang’s positions have changed in the last 3 years, he seems pretty darned consistent to me and given how much the far left dislikes him, he is for sure far from woke. The coverage Andrew gets can sound a little identity politics laden at times but you can blame the MSM for that and he was always anti trump policies but never anti trump voters, we need everyone on the same team to fix the problems we got going on these days.
Been saying this for years. As soon as I came out of the Marine Corps with basic mix martial arts training, I saw this disparity immediately. Love Rener for life
Mcmap? Mcmap is trash lol. Maybe u can fight, but mcmap really doesn’t make people better unless they have good instructors that focus on grappling and sparring.
Teaching cops BJJ is a noble goal, it really is. But on a large scale its a pipe dream to me. Most cops barely get enough training on their firearms, and now we will teach them BJJ? And Theyl continue to train in order to maintain their skills? Yeah, I just don’t see it. With all the mandatory training courses that cops have to do, their court appearances, etc etc there just isn’t enough time to do this in my opinion. Bear in mind, the vast majority of departments don’t have the budget for this. It may be feasible if there are some really sweeping fundamental changes but I just don’t see it being a thing, at least for now.
There are over 700 000 full time police officers in the US (not counting special agents and administrative staff and part time officers, officer fluctuation, etc.). Lets go with one million. Let's say you need to train and payroll 1 mil officers per year. If you want to be more selective, you need to increase salary drastically. Let's go with an extra 50k salary, and let's go with an extra 50k training and equipment budget. So for 1 million people 100k extra annual expenditure... that is... 300 dollar extra taxes for every man woman and child in the US. But wait... You are a hobo. You don't pay taxes. The vast majority of US population does not pay taxes. 10% of the US population produces 90% of all taxes. So the top 10% of the population needs to pay 3000 USD per year each. And why is that? Because the bottom fewten percent of the population is committing most of the crime. So basically, you want a small percentage of people who barely commit crimes to pay for the expenses of the majority. Nah. Go and fuck yourself. You and Sam both.
@@txdmsk The punchline of the video is the thesis of the study claiming that the Brazilian-jujitsu training cost the department less than otherwise, not more.
McDonald’s Taser Incident: ruclips.net/video/F4VeHOkt_o8/видео.html Jiu-Jitsu Cop Breaks Down His Own Encounter: ruclips.net/video/BOBsTJdr0Oo/видео.html 2 Cops vs. 1 Huge Guy: ruclips.net/video/FFTJHu4b4Sw/видео.html
Can confirm if you have a base understanding of jiu jitsu (plus some wrestling) you will have no issues safely subduing your average guy that doesn’t know anything and doesn’t have a super significant size and strength advantage. Yes size matters. But the better you are the less it matters. Jiu Jitsu would definitely be an amazing tool for our boys in blue.
Teaching cops BJJ is a great idea, but I think training in folkstyle wrestling would be even more effective. It is rare that joint locks and chokes (which are banned anyways) are rarely necessary to effectively apprehend a criminal. Being able to control people to the ground and work from on top of them with wrist control and froward pressure is more important. Wrestling simulates actual grappling with untrained combatants more than BJJ.
@@seangarner2687 Yeah you are 10000000000000% correct since in Judo and BJJ they clearly never "control people to the ground and work from on top of them with wrist control and forward pressure". I have trained Judo and BJJ since i was 7 years old and not a single time ever, not once, has anyone ever taught me a single takedown or throw or shown me how to control people from on top of them. They also told me to never touch the opponents wrists since wrist control clearly does not matter and they told me to never ever push forward since that also clearly has no application when you want to move someone else around. Often there are stupid people in the youtube comment sections, but this time the guy who wrote the comment is 300 IQ genius. Probably smarter than Einstein and Hawkins combined. Truly peak human intelligence. Wow. Amazing.
I really appreciate the fact that we can have a little bit of empathy for police. So often they're portrayed as just evil racists. I'm not saying there's no police violence issue, but it's really refreshing to try to understand how people work and not just demonizing them.
What are you talking about? At least in the USA, law enforcement has been historically WORSHIPED. From portrayals by the media, television, literature, etc., people have been ingrained with the notion of "good guy cops." It's one of the reasons why we let police get away with so much. And finally, largely thanks to all the video footage available (body cameras, cell phone cameras), people who ordinarily have no exposure to law enforcement get to see, for themselves, all the abuse that takes place. That is a good, refreshing, positive change. And with it, we're finally trying to make positive changes.
@@flavoredwallpaper Well no, the police are routinely accused of racially motivated murders when there is clear video evidence to the contrary. If you think that there is good evidence George Floyd or Duante Wright were both killed intentionally, and with a racial motive, you are out of your mind. But that is none the less what many people have concluded. The police are indeed demonised unfairly (look at officer Darren Wilson who literally did nothing wrong), and even in those cases where the police have done something wrong, there is no appreciation for the fact that they are frequently panicking under what are understandably very stressful situations, and are instead characterised as killing purely out of racial malice, even though none of the BLM era killings have any evidence to support this claim. And I dont know what positive changes you are referring to, but the chief accomplishment of BLM has been to discourage the police from policing, resulting in literally thousands of incremental deaths in the form of murder alone since 2014, (and it also appears to have lead to thousands of incremental deaths as a result of an increase in reckless driving also). The loss of life alone utterly dwarfs the number of unjustified police killings, even if you could eliminate these entirely, which in a country of hundreds of millions of people is just not realistic. And if there has been a spike in murders and dangerous driving, there has been no doubt a spike in virtually all other crime also. All because your nation cannot have a mature attitude about a handful of events (which are routinely misrepresented) occurring within a massive population.
@@LL-pn2gp For sure! I don’t think a lot of people even want to hear it though. They want to focus all attention on race, which is a factor, but it doesn’t tell the whole story in my opinion. This podcast sheds some light on that.
I totally agree. Race is the narrative right now. And any information that deviates from that isn’t welcome into the conversation. And man that’s unfortunate.
Law enforcement's role has been made untenable. We are an overpoliced society. There are too many paths that lead to enforcement. I recognize that exploring solutions to this problem should remain exhaustive, but training police to grapple is only possibly a good solution to a small portion of the larger problem as I see it. The firearm is always there and control of it must always be retained by the officer. That makes closing distance with resistant suspects/detainees problematic. Great topic, great discussion, great host and guest. Thank you.
@@somethingawesome9547 You are entitled to your opinion. One thing that stands out immediately is an allegation without merit. You could have alleged that I had not heard or adequately comprehended the information in the video, but instead, you alleged that I did not listen.
@@Shnonan RUclips Comments is not a viable forum to have a philosophical discussion. But you Westerners do not have the slightest notion of “over policed.”
I am not sure if I am getting the gist of this right, but it seems the problem is 1) highly untrained police 2) police having a gun. Seems if every police officer was properly trained, and didn't have a gun readily available, many of these issues would solve themselves? There appears to be a huge issue between rightfully bearing arms per your 2nd amendment rights, and then law enforcement immediately perceiving that as a threat. We all know the public is not smart. Expecting the public to act in a more rational way than "trained" officers seems like a tall order. It should be incumbent on the officers and departments to act properly, instead of expecting the public to act properly.
I don't know about the training in different countries, but I believe being a Police officer in the US is way more difficult than in many other countries. For example in my country in central Europe, almost nobody has guns and homicides are almost a non issue for a police officer. It's a whole different job almost.
@@CanariasCanariass Yeah. You "believe" because we all grew up with american police shows on TV. Showing us how ultra professional and best in the world they are. But thats the thing. US police receive almost zero training. And the same goes for a lot of other things. Its a country of PROUD amateurs. It can be hard to understand that things arent like how we believe. For example every law & order and every episode of CSI... NOTHING works like that in reality.
@@captain_context9991 Doesnt it make a huge difference though about what state of the US we are talking about, or is the training the same in every state? Do you live in the US?
Jujitsu is a sport fighting style. People who practice ju jitsu do so under rules, no biting, no scratching, no gouging or fish hooks. Won't work in a real fight. Also cops don't have the luxury of assuming some one wont help a culprit. Ju jitsu is useless against more than one person. The risk of having your gun pulled and shot with it is also non existent in ju jitsu practice.
Great points to me which show that jujitsu sport fighting style training alone would not be the best type of training for many situations police would encounter. Jujitsu type training definitely wouldn't hurt, and could still be helpful in many ways, but this of course would only be part of the overall training police officers need.
Can't get over the fact that some people think that rear naked choke holds are *not* for police to use to subdue a combative subject. It's just nuts to me. It's fine for the sport, but not fine for cops to employ.
I think the cops needs a good degree of jujitsu training in order to actively use it (rather than react in personal defense). If you are not sufficiently skilled then I'm assuming it is a really bad idea to close distance to subdue a subject who might have a knife, or friends, or pepper spray. Tasers are available.
@@leonais1 It seems that tasers are sufficiently unreliable that use of a taser comes with risk that it simply doesn't stop someone who is high or if one of the prongs are blown off course and misses, or hits a clothing seam. They work almost perfectly when the subject is perfectly still, standing and centered, shoulders square; thin attire.
@@leonais1 cops have to close the distance to make the arrest. A cop is actively using a rear naked chokehold often in personal defense but more often as a way to subdue someone which would be offensive.
I had a thought recently and it brought me back to this video. Specifically, they discuss the "amygdala hijack", wherein there is a fight or flight response. I bring this up because I have heard 2 rather strange stories of people resisting arrest recently. The first is of an ATF agent in plain clothes that was carrying his credentials. Somebody called the police on him, and he resisted. Why? The second is about a member of the Michigan state legislature. I don't know all the specifics, but he also resisted arrest. Why? The thought I have is this: is it possible that when faced with arrest, people have a fight or flight response that they cannot control? It would explain a lot of situations that have been happening and why people react in the way they do. This leads me to a second thought: is the demonization of police in the media contributing to that involuntary response? I would think yes. I also think that past interactions with police would definitely have an effect as well. But to get to the level of the ATF agent, who knows full well that all he has to do is obey their instructions and then show them his credentials when he gets a chance, there has to be some kind of involuntary response to the situation.
I listened to this podcast today and thought the same thing. Is there some sort of reflexive button that gets triggered when someone tries to put their hands on us because we as humans don't have people touching us in this manner as a whole unless your in an abusive relationship. The media is definitely culpable in making people feel as though they have to worry when in fact police as a whole do a very good job given the job inevitably requires force hence the name police force. Overall, deaths by police (most justified) are about 1,000 a year. Compare that to 200,000-400,000 depending on the source for medical mistakes. The issue is as Rener mentioned is people really don't understand what it takes to arrest a non-compliant person much less with someone with something to lose who may be on drugs. They view these suspects as having done little wrong; the lead-up to the arrest gets buried. It's the only profession I can think of where people feel justified in criticizing people for how they do their job without knowing much about what they deal with daily and how that can lead to hyper vigilance. The general public thinks these suspects are folks just minding their own business who all of a sudden lose their life. I think some public education is in serious order. Just my 2 cents coming from a former court bailiff. Cops don't want to get hurt and risk their careers or injury. It works both ways; suspects and cops have their amygala hijacked. I fear for your nation if the media doesn't stop sensationalizing these stories without showing the other side of the coin. I don't know much about BJJ and although more training in defensive tactics is obviously necessary, the situations cops face would be different than a controlled situation taught in a class. I think BJJ would help but there is still IMO loads of room for things to go sideways because suspects aren't every day citizens; they are usually repeat offenders who are willing to fight to avoid prison and that will to escape is going to be higher than the people they train with in a sterile setting.
Haven't listened to this yet- I must know what Rener thinks about the Ashley Babbit killing at the capital. Please get an answer to this pointed question comrade.
Don't have this problem in the UK and our police are equally as useless at grappling. Teaching US cops BJJ will save a few unnecessary deaths but reforming gun licensing and reducing the number of guns on the street should be the main focus.
A question I have is why some things aren't changed for such a long time until the issues get so big. Same with the laws in New York, did they not talk with police and other experts before they impose those rules? Surely if they hear disallowing these holds will increase injuries and violence, it should make them rethink that strategy. Was this advice given before those rules were implemented? It seems in the best interest for the police to teach de-escalation tactics and non-lethal suppression tactics for both suspects, themselves and civilians. Why does it take decades to start this process? Basically: Why don't institutions more proactively improve their methods with help of experts in the field where necessary? (I do believe an example of that is police and FBI negotiation tactics, these were reworked from scratch from the 80's I believe)
How many times a day does a policeman arrest an unarmed resisting suspect? Is Jui-Jitsu fought between widely different weight groups or between fighters within the same weight group? To be fair, do the police have to match a resisting suspect with a policeman of the same weight class? How many women took part in those early all-comer jiu-jitsu experiments?
"What I'm speculating and what I feel is often the case is you have a good person, who is doing the job for the right reason. But even the best cop, the best moral character, the best values. The best cop on the planet let's just say. The second they're in a situation that they are not prepared to handle non-violently, they're going to handle it violently." - Rener Gracie acab in a nutshell
😄this is a straight up ad for ju ji tsu ! Although, I totally agree with this approach (i.e.teach cops more ju ji tsu). I would add mental health reform for cops.
All valid commentary about physical restraint presented here notwithstanding... I wonder what effect a concerted application of acute social isolation would have on the problem of arresting people. Assuming that the great majority of the anecdotes that drive the perception of this problem include suspects who, despite their various dispositions, nonetheless have family, friends, and coworkers who, in ordinary circumstances, could be relied upon to more effectively de-escalate the suspect's aggravation, why not just somehow 'encircle' them (thus arresting their movement) and allow the tedium of time and social opprobrium to do their pacifying work? Surely, in the case of resistors of arrest, this will cost more resources but overall it may be found to be highly cost effective. With it's prediction, on the part of any potential arrestee of such a subdued, protracted, and viscerally boring affair, the typical otherwise resistant arrestee may become resigned to 'getting it over with'.
Sam, can you get someone on your podcast to actually talk about racism in policing and the criminal justice system? Because you seem to LOVE deflecting that notion (despite all the statistics and studies that say otherwise), and I think it'd greatly benefit everyone to hear some other perspectives. It's obviously not "all" about racism, but it most definitely plays an important role in every aspect of the criminal justice system: policing, prosecuting, and judging.
This has been my biggest (almost only) qualm with Harris's coverage on policing. He's generally ready (and often well equipped) to dispel race related notions, but not once have I heard him discuss it with anyone claiming to be an authority on the matter (though that interview may exist somewhere I suppose, just not this podcast).
He does talk about statistics in the “can we pull back from the brink” podcast. How most aggression against black and or brown people, are committed by black and or brown police. And how according to statistics, whites are more likely to be shot than others by police. Among many other things. Don’t just speak a whole narrative like that as if it’s just one big racist conspiracy going on....
Gracie does repeat the fairly egregious canard of the barber license. 1500 hours would be almost an entire year of full-time education. It's ludicrous to suppose that's actually happening or is necessary. To the degree it exists It's an example of regulatory capture used by large established cartels to keep small single-person businesses from competing. I think it's also unlikely that many agencies in CA are just hitting the minimum AND I very much doubt the 664 hours counts field training. I'm not in CA but for me to get hired several years ago I had to put in some hundreds of hours at a community college to be eligible for licensure. I already had a BA and military experience before that (Army) My hiring agency then put on an academy, 28 weeks full time for a total of 1,120 hours. Following that was five months of full-time field training, working a car with experienced officers. I absolutely would love to have an hour a week of paid BJJ, but we needn't replicate pernicious mischaracterizations of the profession to advocate for that.
Uneventful arrests are the norm. They're just never seen. I've been recorded taking care of numerous arrests of non-compliant individuals. Mysteriously no one bothers uploading those videos, they don't become viral, etc. 10M arrests every year are represented by 3-5 viral incidents a year. Again, I'd love to get paid to roll, but we needn't overstate how bad the current situation is.
Yes, I agree. The general public is using the 3-5 viral incidents as a benchmark of what the job is really like. As someone who lives in California and worked as a police officer for about 3 years, the training is almost exactly what you had, 7 month academy and minimum 4 months on the job. Police are not as undertrained as Rener Gracie makes it out to be. The problem as I see it is the publics perceptions of the entire job as whole. Just from reading these comments, it's clear people don't understand much of what it entails. It's the only profession where people feel comfortable in Monday morning quarterbacking a cops every decision without the years of training and experience a cop has. I think everyone in the public needs to try doing F.A.T.S. (firearms training simulator) for starters.
considering how bad self-driving AI is, this is hilarious. With driving you have everybody on the road following certain rules and you have thousands of road markers every mile to help the AI. You have nothing analogous in policing situations.
@@quintonwilson8565 ... Extrapolate what our current drone systems do .. into a boston dynamics bipedal drone , the officer is in a stress and danger free environment sat in a secure area , and controls his metal analogue in the real world . Very unlikely to make the wrong decision out of fear and would have controllers / supervisors giving them instruction .
This was the best infomercial I've ever listened to. But seriously, I wish every member of the public was forced to listen to this. Under threat of being submitted by Rener.
Rener Gracie seems extremely enthusiastic in support of BJJ for cops in this one. How well can it work? Well, as often as the person being arrested isn't carrying a weapon of any kind and isn't better at BJJ than the cop. In this podcast he talks about small, frail elderly being able to subdue significantly larger, stronger men (even men hopped up on meth and fentanyl), but that seems spurious to me. Notice we don't see many videos of grandma putting an 18 year old thug into submission; because it can't happen.
There are 697,195 Full-time Police Officers currently in the United States (many more part-time). While I agree on so much talked about in the video, it is important to know the limitations of this talent pool. While there are individuals, who in a former, or alternate, career path might have served in military SOF... most can't. The selection criteria for US military SOF is, by many orders of magnitude, more challenging than it is for most Police Officers. We're not talking about FBI HRT or NYPD ESU, we are talking about the average Police Officer. Most are selfless and noble, but are not screened, trained, equipped to perform like a Special Operator can. Just like not all Veterans are Elite, neither are most Police Officers. A concern I have when it comes to the Outstanding minds like Sam Harris and Joe Rogan, is that they may experience ‘Frequency Bias’ from the types of Veterans and Police Officers which they are around (whom I would submit are of a significantly higher caliber than what the overall talent pool represents). Not a dig, just a practical limitation. Please keep up the awesome work! --Regular Guy
Seems to me the best, most meaningful way to cut back on violent encounters with the police (encounters, period) would be to finally end Prohibition and decriminalize drugs. A lot of the widespread antipathy toward police results from their hassling/arresting/imprisoning/ruining lives over things that aren't even morally wrong.
@ZK Tay I don't see how anyone has ever figured drug USE to be morally wrong, and with liquor stores everywhere, I don't know how anyone can argue with a straight face that dealing them is, either. Not to mention prescription-happy doctors and Big Pharma, who aggressively markets all manner of substances to us. That strikes me as an incredibly naïve perspective, which never developed any further than graduation from some junior high school's D.A.R.E program.
@ZK Tay Okay... How do you figure it is? How is someone, in the privacy of his own home, putting a substance into his own body, harming you? Doesn't this argument sound familiar? What has this person done that requires him to be imprisoned and labelled a felon? Is it immoral to drink alcohol or smoke cigarettes? Does the law have the final say on what is moral and what is immoral? Does a doctor's signature necessarily transform the use of certain substances (amphetamines, benzos or opiates) from a immoral, criminal act into valid treatment? You know, it does you no good to simply assert something is ignorant or immoral. Share your thoughts; I would be fascinated to hear your reasoned argument!
@ZK Tay I will never accept it is the right of the majority to control the personal choices of individuals, in cases where their behavior, in and of itself, harms no one else. Reason is the only way to decide what is morally acceptable, and ideally, the law should follow reason. Not everyone who drinks becomes a drunk driver; not everyone who uses amphetamines (which are prescribed regularly to children) becomes a raving lunatic, out to mug you; not everyone who eats at McDonald's becomes obese and infringes on precious tax dollars. By your logic, no dangerous activities should be allowed: no wingsuit diving, no dangerous stunts, no fast food or soft drinks... The same arguments were brought to bear on the subject of homosexual behavior, by people looking to control other people's personal choices of what to do with their own lives and selves. Again, just because a certain view is taken to be a "law" by some people, does not necessarily make it moral. Morality is not decided by majority vote. Any reference to "social condemnation" usually marks someone out as belonging to the new Woke religion, which is rapidly adopting arguments, attitudes and tactics that traditionally belonged to rightwing Christians. Personal freedom, of choice and speech, far supersedes the will of a self-righteous mob in every case. Suicide is not a sin; homosexuality is not a sin; personal drug use is not a sin. What strikes me as immoral is the criminalizing and imprisonment of people over things that are nobody's business but their own. A puritanical society, with its nose perpetually stuck in people's private affairs, would not represent the height of morality. Were the charade of generations-long prohibition to end, so would most gang/cartel violence, mass incarceration, and the spread of even more dangerous, impure drugs. It would also mark the most important step that could be taken, to achieve true racial justice (hell, justice for everyone) in the criminal system, which I am sure you are also concerned about. I won't even get started on the lies and propaganda that stirred the hysteria of the public and led to prohibition, of all kinds, in the first place...
@ZK Tay Who is promoting the idea that drugs are harmless? All I ever heard from official sources, from grade school on up, was hysterical fearmongering and outright lies. Deliberate miseducation breeds contempt in youth smart enough to realize they are being spoon-fed propaganda, and that drugs and drug users are not Satan incarnate. A climate of fear and demonization is never healthy, no matter the subject. I do not value drug use in and of itself. I value respecting people's privacy and their rights over their own selves. I have a neutral reaction when I hear someone uses drugs; I neither judge nor applaud their actions, but I respect their right to be left alone. That is the whole point. The scary brainwash never "took" with me, so I will never comprehend the apparently irresistible urge to butt into people's business with the presumption I know best how to run their private lives. I knew a variety of different types growing up, and the only ones who struck me as "lobotomized" were the ones who experienced the abuse of being heavily indoctrinated into religion at a young age. The symptoms are always the same: a horrified fascination with things they are forbidden to partake in and know nothing about themselves; that awful judgmental streak, which will never let them be happy living their own lives until they have forced everyone else to live their way, too... Always, ignorance, fear and hypocrisy. What causes misery to humanity: unjust laws that punish what isn't crime and contribute to the ruination of countless lives. Ignorance. Fear. False education/mass indoctrination into lies. I don't know how you can say that religious/puritanical societies always emerge triumphant. Yeah, Saudi Arabia and North Korea: two of the most progressive, desirable places to live in the world. I live in a particularly puritanical state, which trains each generation to be properly terrified of drugs and pornography. My state is the leader of prescription drug abuse, antidepressant prescriptions, and online pornography. Your presumption that you have THE truth about drugs, and your eagerness to force it on everyone else, is appalling, but depressingly common. It has long been the norm to judge and punish people based on implanted ignorance regarding this matter of freedom and public health, but it wasn't always, and won't be again. OR has already taken a brave first step.
@ZK Tay I wanted to add that, to certain people (Sam Harris, say), the psychedelic experience is one of the most profound, beautiful, even "spiritual" to be had by human beings. Besides that, these substances show great potential in helping people overcome a variety of disorders. Also, smoking some weed is a lot kinder to your mind, body and "soul" than what a doctor will give you, if you go tell him or her you are sad or in pain.
Hello, Sam Harris! In your book "The End of Faith", you have argued against pragmatism, the highest form of relativism, and against it, respectively. Do you have a more extensive refutation of relativism?
Devils advocate: Jujitsu does not transform a 120lb woman into a powerhouse that can cuff 240lb men who are resisting. A taser does. Jujitsu does not keep people out of range of stabbing/biting. A taser does. Cross section of people who are likely to become proficient at jujitsu, have enough raw strength to begin with to make it effective against a wide range of real world opponents, and are interested in serving in law enforcement? I feel like this is not a large enough cross section for this to pan out as a good investment from a managed risk and managed cost perspective. It sounds great in an infomercial but the department has to consider which training and tools provide the maximum return on investment. I do not believe that departments should be asking their officers to put down their tasers and batons in favor of a "new-age" hand-to-hand combat solution that significantly reduces their advantage against opponents in an attempt to resolve a PR problem that has very little to do with police and very much to do with woke mental disorders. There is a very unusual new phenomena in society, where a large percentage of the population believes that resisting arrest is supposed to be a fair fight where the criminal is supposed to have a chance to win. The officer is supposed to only elevate the fight to the level of violence and leverage that the criminal chooses. Any time the police elevate their level of force to ensure a swift application of cuffs and minimal risk to the officers there's outrage from the woke mob. The cross section of people willing to risk the rest of their life being destroyed by the mob and people who are interested in law enforcement is rapidly shrinking. Focus on resolving the woke mob problem else there won't be any officers remaining to teach jujitsu. With that said. Yes. More jujitsu. More training.
After tasing, what's next? Nobody is advocating for an old school brawl. Who said to put away tasers and batons? The point is these techniques help with securing someone on the ground. There have been countless cases of someone being tased and still being a problem due to a lack of technique on what to do with the weakened body. I agree with your last statement, but 99% of this comment is a strange strawman.
@@CanditoTrainingHQ The response is titled devils advocate for a reason. It's an exercise in considering that there could be flaws and/or misrepresentations in the reasoning/rationale/benefits given for jujitsu training. I listened to this video and found myself thinking that it seems unreasonable that jujitsu training isn't standard practice and tried to come up with some real world explanations for why it isn't and didn't have to try very hard to rationalize my way right out of it the way most departments probably do. ROI is probably not as good as other mechanisms because to make jujitsu useful it requires a huge time and muscle memory development/investment similar to useful firearm training. It also creates a situation where some officers who have the strength and pain tolerance to perform the moves are doing something different in the field than those who do not, so it causes a breakdown in standard operating procedures, which, from a management perspective looks like more liability. I think it's worth trying to get departments on board with this, but I think it's a much harder sell than is obvious.
@@mdocod if someone lacks the strength and pain tolerance to train jiu jitsu they definitely don't need to be a cop. 120lb men compete in jiu jitsu. Jiu jitsu has been around since UFC 1, it's far from new age. The idea that jiu jitsu reduces a person's hand to hand combat effectiveness is laughable. Jiu jitsu teaches students to only use as much effort as needed, something that coincides with use of force. It's literally the science of grappling with a resisting opponent. A blue belt cop with a taser is much more effective and less likely to cap an innocent civilian than a normal cop with a taser. I get that you're playing devil's advocate but opinions like these should be ignored because they're ignorant and unwilling to change.
Tasers have a good tendency of not working. Shirts, jackets, sweaters etc can cause poor probe connection and even if you do get a good connection, some people barely respond to it. I'd recommend as a case in point checking the video of the man getting tased straight in the chest without any clothing, basically perfect connection, but the guy barely even flinches shouting, and I paraphrase "EXACTLY WHAT I NEEDED" before charging the officer. If you are alone on duty, you don't use a non-lethal as your primary because if it fails, you can die. Non-lethals are primarily used when you have a lethal cover, so a partner ready with a gun to make sure there is a backup. With multiple officers, you can layer non-lethals like combining tasers, mace, 40mm rubber/beanies, even flashbangs. But again, some people (I'm looking at you, people of Florida) seem scarily impervious to non-lethals (and even lethals, some people take an excess of +7 rounds before going down) while others it works well on so it is by no means a safe option.
A fantastic primer in the train wreck that is Police Training. So much of this may as well be verbatim from the cops that would come train jiu jitsu on their own time, without compensation or benefit, over 10 years ago. Well trained police does not fix enforcement of bad laws. Well trained police better enforce law with minimal casualty. What is also incredible is that 12 years of state mandated public education does not include law enforcement interaction education as standard. 'The Talk' that everyone needs has nothing to do with race pertaining to law enforcement. Similarly, the 'compassionate' need to be put in their place for all the states, counties, municipalities that make submission techniques illegal.
Here’s a question. Will gun violence against police uptick because suspects have to contend with a well trained officer with this new developed skill? Consequences are often times not predictable.
If they're undertrained we blame the police department. It's the police departments explicit job to advocate (in positive ways that will be received) for funding for expanded non-lethal training, firearms training, etc. Literally THEIR JOB! It's police officers duty to call for higher requirements in training for the profession nationwide. Hell police unions exist to protect officers and help them, which makes it THEIR jobs as well to advocate positively for expanded non-lethal training, state policy reform, etc. WHY AREN'T THEY DOING THAT?!?! Either they're not doing it, or they're failing at their literal jobs. Given that it's a problem nationwide, I can only assume the former.
Hmm, I think it’s odd that they keep hammering the point that the general public that is concerned about police use of force believes that police are extremely well trained because as far as I’ve experienced the lack of police training is a huge known issue in the community of people concerned about the failures of policing and is something many people are arguing to be changed. Additionally police not being well trained in the law causing them to misunderstand or not know the laws and ordinances that they go on to misapply in enforcement is another aspect of the lack of training. Regardless of whether or not “99%” (hopefully that was just hyperbole by Sam) of the public understands that our police are woefully under trained, they definitely see the results of this and recognize that something is horribly wrong with our policing. The public is being failed by policing and there is nothing irrational about being angry, disappointed and afraid because a badly trained cop is dangerous and deadly just like a bad cop, frankly a poorly trained cop actually is a bad cop. Having said all of that, I think Rener is definitely doing something great and I hope that it catches on, I believe it really can make a difference and improve policing in America.
I was a British police officer for 30 years 95% of police officers had zero martial arts training .. Personally I hold a black belt at Judo but that took about 5 years of my personal time and a hell of a lot of training and fighting many 100s of hours, during which I suffered many injuries, its very hard for police forces to give the time and accept the injuries that result from realistic sparing but you can only really fight if you train with force and speed.
@@TheDani305 Twice but never pulled .. One was sitting on the flat of the blade and until I talked him down and he just handed it to me I never even realised he had a bloody knife .. And the other had a punch blade which again I never realised until the fight was over which luckily for me took about one second because I threw him and broke two of his ribs (concrete is HARD and 99% of people don`t know how to land)
The fact that Sam seemed to be defending the police and neglecting that this necessary violence is happening to a certain race could be the reason.... I dont know. Just a guess
@@amistoradebe1746 When analyzing such a comprehensive topic as this, one must have the facts clear: 1. In relation to the population, more blacks are stopped by the police than whites. 2. At the same time, there are more blacks among criminals than whites. The reason for this is both unfair socio-cultural and socio-cultural factors, however this still does not change the outcome. 3. If you compare the number of whites who are stopped by the police with the number of blacks who are stopped by the police, there is no greater chance of being killed if you are black. This, combined with countless other confusing factors means that you have to be very nuanced and I think Sam Harris really is. To intead shout: "BLM! Racism!" Tearing down statues, etc ... is not going to change anything. Sorry for the lack of better comparisons, but the demonstrations and riots there have been over the past year are just as pointless and ignorant as believing that you can fix a wristwatch by shouting at it and throwing it against the wall.
I agree cops need more training but it’s hard to listen to this when they both seem to be obviously ignoring the cases where cops shouldn’t have escalated a non-violent situation into a violent one themselves.
I agree, but I listen to this in the context of only talking about those cases in which the cop has good intentions but is untrained and escalates out of fear or ignorance. Obviously, this isn’t all cases.
which cases are those? I contend they exist and far and few. The idea this happens on a daily basis is mind-boggling. We as a nation hear about these viral incidents once in a blue moon, which means that the 850,000 police out there are doing their jobs well day in and day out. This culture that something that become violent is somehow always the officers fault is erroneous but cops make mistakes as all people do in any profession. Doctors kill over 200,000 people a year while law enforcement accounts for 1,000 deaths of which only about 10 are not justified. The rest were valid shootings. How is it police get such a bad rap in a profession that requires force. Its in the name of their jobs; police force and there's no getting around that until people stop fighting cops. Cops are not the ones escalating the violence; the suspect is. There is no playbook for the endless ways in which a situation can go haywire. No amount of training will result in zero deaths or incidents of force when people attack cops. It's an unreasonable expectation in a challenging job that few people understand first-hand but feel justifiable offering up every critique under the sun. I speak from experience as someone with 3 years experience as a cop.
I have a few critiques of this podcast; 1. Having officers take a 40 hour certification, and then going out and training people who have had 0 hours of training.... seems like almost equally as bad of an idea as 4-8 hours a year of training. 2. 1 injury in 26,000 classes? You would expect more than one injury in 26,000 chess club meetings that number makes no sense. 3. We should train officers more isn't an interesting topic. We didn't really talk about the actual question, and I understand why Rener Gracie is not an expert in Police Politics hes an expert in BJJ. The interesting topic is why officers aren't being trained more/ why training isn't changing.
@@be8420 you are absolutely right. I still stand by my point. Let's say there are 10 people in a class we're back to 26,000 events of a contact sport taking place with only one injury?
@@Bromeostasis I am right there with you, it seems extraordinary to claim only 1 injury. Unless it was more of a exhibit, rather than hands on training.
And not because bjj is dangerous. His point that bjj is safe for police to train I agree with. But there will just Naturally be a few injuries in any contact training/ sport. It's still worth doing.
Here is the video he refers to around 38:00: ruclips.net/video/T3nhh3HEDkg/видео.html I wish the comments were enabled on that video because it'd be full of people saying what a terrible idea it is to get a suspect in your guard on the ground. Everyone who's practiced bjj with a holster knows it's pretty much wide open for the suspect's hand, hinders all your options and the primary defense is using it as BAIT for a kimura. Suspect stronger than you? Knows more BJJ? Whoops... you just sacrificed your opportunity of using the one thing that would've saved your life.
@@Norcalxx I believe he modified it and controls the weapon arm. If you're worried about your other utility items, those can be modified to be harder to grab, say closer to the right it on the right or you can not have so much utility when you're this well trained... It depends on how much development he has for people carrying utility.
@@thelaw3536 Cops are not gonna bet their life on one roll with a random person off the street. The tactic itself isn't even practical because needing to control someone's hand in your guard leaves you open to bites and headbutts etc. Meanwhile if they get one hand on your gun while rolling you're now in a tug of war for your life. Completely unreasonable to ask any officer to make the fight more fair while a suspect is trying to kill them.
I'm sorry, but Sam has no idea how police interactions go with poor people. Having been on both sides of the income Spectrum I can tell you that you get completely different treatment based on your address at the time. That goes with any form of government
A police agency I worked for, and was on the training cadre, in the early 2000's tried this idea. We had a two hours a week of defense training, wrestling, boxing, mau thai, jujitsu, etc. It was free and officers who attended the two hour class got three hours of comp time. Still no one showed up. As a trainer it was very frustrating. I think we were ahead of our time with the idea. I've tried to get this started back up with my new agency, but have not had luck. I hope this interview will help.
You weren´t ahead of your time. You just made a mistake by not making it compulsory. Given a choice, most people will take the easy way out.
I don’t have to tell you most cops are lazy and want to skate by. If that wasn’t true, they would take their training more serious
Attend the training or lose your job. Just like anybody else.
Unfortunately police unions have so much power, they can absolve their members from disciplinary actions so well known, and used, on the rest of us.
Hey that’s awesome. I’m sure they will show up. Everyone loves mma now
@@Theroadneverending Yeah, cops are lazy because most of them work over 40 hours a week and need time for rest and other aspects of life...
Sam clearly just trying to come up with solutions instead of only concern. Respect.
What's with the abandonment of simple words like "was"? I wonder if this will ever be meaningfully studied.
@@jumpinjohnnyruss I assume it's because the past tense can be clearly distinguished by the presence of -ing at the end of the verb (in most cases).
Is it not more likely that this was just a mistake by OP? Or is that something that comes up more often nowadays?
You should interview Rick the cop. His channel is Hey Gun people. It would be a good interview.
@Tronald Dump That was my thought to...make it a heavy blanket
The cost of extra training would be offset by the savings on legal penalties.
Valid point spot on
you listened to the podcast too? congrats
Why does the cost even matter. Jesus Christ lol.
@@_SeeYouSpaceCowboy capitalism...lol...
@@_SeeYouSpaceCowboy Because of the nature of financial Markets
Our whole way of life
Balancing the cost of saving the lives of hardened criminals as opposed to using the money for other more pressing issues more deserving endeavors
I feel like the reason Sam called this an infomercial is because Gracie keeps saying 'Now look at this, Sam!' (infomercials often have the demonstrator use the other person's name when they're making points). But in all seriousness, this was EXCELLENT!
He said it's an "infomercial" because we have the perfect system of techniques, philosophy and mindset to help officers deal with the type of challenges they are currently facing and it's being outlined thoroughly here. Much like how the original UFC (created by Reners father, Rorion) was only created to be an "infomercial " for how gracie or Brazilian jiu-jitsu was most effective in a real fight against all other forms of martial arts. Respect.
Unlike Sean king
Umm preople also say names when they want to be more friendly...
@@PresidentialWinner What an astute realization! Yes, people use names for lots of reasons. My point was merely that Sam's point that the episode comes off as an infomercial was accurate not only in content but also tone...especially when you factor in his guest's enthusiasm. Personally, I love infomercials.
Bella you're beautiful!
can't wait till the youtube playback speed feature allows us to change the speed of one voice only
So we can hear "yeah" in 2x? =P
jk, always enjoying Sam.
Rener Gracie - "There are terrible police, firefighters, philosophers..."
Sam Harris - "Whoa, wait, what was that last one...?"
Let me guess. The same tired and roundly debunked "bad apples" argument?
Hoping to save an hr and a half if that's the case
@@jakeleisure8326 Let me guess. U missed the joke
what's the alternative to that assumption?
@@user-tv9to1oe2h I got the "joke," sure
@@jakeleisure8326 One could probably shoehorn the conversation into that world view, so it's really going to depend on likely you are to do that.
Thank you for doing this introducing real world solutions to a very difficult socio-political climate
I started jiu jitsu after this podcast. I've been on the fence for a while and finally did it. It's been a tough week but I am slowly getting there. Thank you Sam and Renee, I hope you get to read this!
I mean. Good stuff, Sam Harris gets yelled at for 2 hours :) seriously good insight.
You have a very low bar for what constitutes being yelled at!
@@MrCBTman it's a joke ;) - more or less Gracie was just super amped up yelling about how bad the training cops have is for 2 hours while Sam tried to get some words in. nom sayin?
To be fair, Sam did say he needed some cocaine. Wouldve been interesting
@Tronald Dump I get what you are saying, but I think there may be a protective factor (against police brutality), beyond those tools you suggest, that comes with the skillset, community, and philosophy of jujitsu. I think they should both make the changes Rener advocates and (where feasible) make weapon replacements along the lines of what you're suggesting. This problem is obviously worth spending a lot of time, money, and effort on.
@Tronald Dump I’m really surprised their isn’t a better non-lethal weapon than a taser. They fail for a lot of reasons and they also require a fairly narrow range of circumstances to work.
The first Harris podcast ever I wanted to reduce the speed on.
I have a question for you. Why would you make a podcast go a little faster? I've only heard of this but don't really understand why.
@@franciscoulloa3943 It's simply to save time. I listen at 2.0 speed, and I can listen to twice as much content.
@@franciscoulloa3943 Sam talks pretty slow. Not meant as an insult, he's just a slow speaker.
@@shadrack1701 So you can better understand the information being conveyed. One can almost see through Sam's thinking process. That's golden.
@@franciscoulloa3943 once you get used to 1.5, 1.75 & 2.0 speed it’s almost impossible to listen to things in normal speed, just too damn slow…….except Rener Gracie haha
"As long as there's hope for escape, there will be savagery from the suspect."
I never thought I'd hear a conversation between Rener and Sam, but it was fantastic
It should be noted that Rener Gracie says in this podcast that BJJ training can also be used as a way to ferret out bad cops.
Engaging in BJJ seems like a terrible thing for an officer to engage in while on active duty. Sure, it could help you escape or control an assailant, but if you're grappling while carrying a loaded gun, you already f-ed up. Especially if there are multiple suspects.
@@jimbojones4164 More police training is the dumbest solution I have ever heard. Police needs their hands untied instead.
Agree bjj is a great tool defensibly but to grapple with a loaded gun is a no go, I had a swat officer in my bjj class and we asked him how many times he had used bjj in his job, he said never.
@@jimbojones4164 They train specific techniques on how to prevent the suspect from reaching the officer's gun.
@@jimbojones4164 When you put a suspect in handcuffs and they resist you’re doing BJJ. It’s good to know. Every cop I knew who did it was more effective.
Wow, Sam Harris and Rener Gracie? This is an instant watch!
@@TheDriftingsmoke who hurt you bro?
@@TheDriftingsmoke [citation needed]
@@TheDriftingsmoke He should have brought on Chuck Norris instead. The last conversation he ever need. Chuck Norris solved all the problems.
@@cryptouncle6630 or better still Jean-Claude Van Damme;)
I always find Sams stance on violence, perplexing. I grew up in a very violent neighborhood, and I had to ask myself one key question: “Do I believe in violence (to solve problems)? My answer is no. I don’t want to have anything to do with it. However, I believe in capital punishment, of murderers, done in a humane way. I think our prison system is violent, and does nothing to rehabilitate, just to punish. But... again...I don’t believe in violence. I guess Sam does.
Making sense is the perfect name for this podcast.
The only conclusion that can be drawn from this is that policing needs improvement and improvement requires better funding.
Unfortunately, our country thinks it’s one or the other. They want better police, with even less resources
@ZK Tay Sadly agreed. Things seem like they are deteriorating fast here.
What are police unions' policy regarding jiu-jitsu training?
When it comes to cops and the problems many in society are having with cops, some self-defense training is not the answer, no matter how good those technics may be. For one, many in society are out on the street protesting a cop who following correct police procedure, killed a suspect while that suspect was in the act of attacking a third person with a weapon. So the problem is not the cop, it is those members of society who feel a need to protest. How about when a cop runs into a suspect skilled in hand-to-hand combat technics or an armed suspect? I can see where good self-defense training would have benefits in some situations. Maybe that's better than nothing.
Rener Gracie has the energy of a 1990s QVC salesman hocking Alonzo Mourning rookie cards
Haha
now there's water all over my keyboard. jerk.
Lol
Sam spoke of the importance of seeing associated videos, but I don't see them shared in the video description.
I think he was making a general reference to the kinds of videos that have been highlighted in the media. At least that's how I took it
You can find the links in Sam Harris' website, in the description of this episode.
Look up the Scott Reitz episode for a perfect double-bill with this one. Still the best Harris podcast episode in my opinion.
Incredible commentary. Spot on. Thank you Rener and Sam.
Let’s get Andrew Yang (who believes all police need BJJ training) elected mayor of NYC and see how quickly he can get that misdirected body hold legislation reformed. Unintended consequences are everywhere and need pragmatic operators to go in and weed them out ASAP before more hurt 😔 and mistrust is sown. 🧢 #YangGangForever
I like yang, but he went anti trump and jumped on the woke bandwagon nonsense. He kind of broke my heart and let me down.
Ron Paul has always kept it real and doesn’t get swayed by the tide of politics
@@scienceisall2632 Ron Paul is an actual racist who supports Russia and Iran. He has pretty much the opposite of Sam Harris's views.
@@scienceisall2632 I feel the same way about Yang it’s a real shame what’s he’s turned into😔
Always been a logical liberal so maybe I missed where anything about Yang’s positions have changed in the last 3 years, he seems pretty darned consistent to me and given how much the far left dislikes him, he is for sure far from woke. The coverage Andrew gets can sound a little identity politics laden at times but you can blame the MSM for that and he was always anti trump policies but never anti trump voters, we need everyone on the same team to fix the problems we got going on these days.
@@emerraldx he went from an outsider who got that the real problem in American politics was the duopoly, to a schill for the DNC.
Lol this is the most Sam have been silent in a podcast. Rener's passion and enthusiasm is on another level.
Never thought I'd get so tired from listening so intently...
Thank you Sam
GREAT PSA....and thanks for not cutting this one off in the middle. Am sharing with everyone. Cheers.
Been saying this for years. As soon as I came out of the Marine Corps with basic mix martial arts training, I saw this disparity immediately. Love Rener for life
Mcmap? Mcmap is trash lol. Maybe u can fight, but mcmap really doesn’t make people better unless they have good instructors that focus on grappling and sparring.
@@spaceisalie5451 🤙thanks for your input. You feel better now?
@@SorenHume LEAD HAND PUNCH MARINE CORPS
The image of an enraged Sam Harris resisting arrest and being punched in the face by five cops is now forever seared into my mind.
Sam Harris is about 5’5. He’s a little manlet that would never be taken seriously. Lmao
@@samlloyd672 miscer detected. And Sam would steal your girl fam.
@@samlloyd672 Yeah, you would totally smash him, my dude.
@@samlloyd672 Wow.
@@samlloyd672 Manlet? Did Sam start working out, lol?
A very informative discussion. Thanks!
The time has come to learn Jiu-Jitsu. For both "you and I", dear listener.
Yep, glad to see he’s sitting down with Renar! He deserves the clout of being on here.
What would be a jiu-jitsu trained policeman's response to a jiu-jitsu trained resisting suspect?
No good deed goes unpunished on RUclips. I supplied links to the videos and comment was immediately deleted.
RUclips censors.
And the SPAM bots supply links with impunity!
Teaching cops BJJ is a noble goal, it really is. But on a large scale its a pipe dream to me.
Most cops barely get enough training on their firearms, and now we will teach them BJJ? And Theyl continue to train in order to maintain their skills? Yeah, I just don’t see it.
With all the mandatory training courses that cops have to do, their court appearances, etc etc there just isn’t enough time to do this in my opinion. Bear in mind, the vast majority of departments don’t have the budget for this.
It may be feasible if there are some really sweeping fundamental changes but I just don’t see it being a thing, at least for now.
"It may be feasible if there are some really sweeping fundamental changes..."
Agreed. That's what has to happen.
Our small police department pays for 1 1/2 hours of reqiured jiu jitsu training per month per officers.
Single best video on fixing the police violence topic so far. Moral of the story is more funding for MORE TRAINING.
Recruitment is the problem. Cowboy culture.
There are over 700 000 full time police officers in the US (not counting special agents and administrative staff and part time officers, officer fluctuation, etc.).
Lets go with one million. Let's say you need to train and payroll 1 mil officers per year.
If you want to be more selective, you need to increase salary drastically. Let's go with an extra 50k salary, and let's go with an extra 50k training and equipment budget. So for 1 million people 100k extra annual expenditure... that is... 300 dollar extra taxes for every man woman and child in the US. But wait... You are a hobo. You don't pay taxes. The vast majority of US population does not pay taxes. 10% of the US population produces 90% of all taxes. So the top 10% of the population needs to pay 3000 USD per year each.
And why is that?
Because the bottom fewten percent of the population is committing most of the crime. So basically, you want a small percentage of people who barely commit crimes to pay for the expenses of the majority.
Nah. Go and fuck yourself. You and Sam both.
@@txdmsk a few percent plus O.J. simpson, Madoff, Gaetz & Epstien?
@@txdmsk So you support status quo.
@@txdmsk The punchline of the video is the thesis of the study claiming that the Brazilian-jujitsu training cost the department less than otherwise, not more.
Thx Sam & Rener
no links to vidoes in description?
brilliant conversation by the way
You can find the links in Sam Harris' website, in the description of this episode.
McDonald’s Taser Incident: ruclips.net/video/F4VeHOkt_o8/видео.html
Jiu-Jitsu Cop Breaks Down His Own Encounter: ruclips.net/video/BOBsTJdr0Oo/видео.html
2 Cops vs. 1 Huge Guy: ruclips.net/video/FFTJHu4b4Sw/видео.html
Can confirm if you have a base understanding of jiu jitsu (plus some wrestling) you will have no issues safely subduing your average guy that doesn’t know anything and doesn’t have a super significant size and strength advantage. Yes size matters. But the better you are the less it matters. Jiu Jitsu would definitely be an amazing tool for our boys in blue.
Teaching every cop BJJ is deep-down a very good idea.
Teaching cops BJJ is a great idea, but I think training in folkstyle wrestling would be even more effective. It is rare that joint locks and chokes (which are banned anyways) are rarely necessary to effectively apprehend a criminal. Being able to control people to the ground and work from on top of them with wrist control and froward pressure is more important. Wrestling simulates actual grappling with untrained combatants more than BJJ.
Yeah, but like.... Did it take 1 hour 40 minutes to say that. Because thats ALL they say in the entire video.
@@captain_context9991 easy as fuck yeah? Job done. You are great.
@@seangarner2687 Yeah you are 10000000000000% correct since in Judo and BJJ they clearly never "control people to the ground and work from on top of them with wrist control and forward pressure". I have trained Judo and BJJ since i was 7 years old and not a single time ever, not once, has anyone ever taught me a single takedown or throw or shown me how to control people from on top of them. They also told me to never touch the opponents wrists since wrist control clearly does not matter and they told me to never ever push forward since that also clearly has no application when you want to move someone else around.
Often there are stupid people in the youtube comment sections, but this time the guy who wrote the comment is 300 IQ genius. Probably smarter than Einstein and Hawkins combined. Truly peak human intelligence. Wow. Amazing.
@@thatsplenty1
Not sure what that was supposed to be.
I really appreciate the fact that we can have a little bit of empathy for police. So often they're portrayed as just evil racists.
I'm not saying there's no police violence issue, but it's really refreshing to try to understand how people work and not just demonizing them.
What are you talking about? At least in the USA, law enforcement has been historically WORSHIPED. From portrayals by the media, television, literature, etc., people have been ingrained with the notion of "good guy cops." It's one of the reasons why we let police get away with so much. And finally, largely thanks to all the video footage available (body cameras, cell phone cameras), people who ordinarily have no exposure to law enforcement get to see, for themselves, all the abuse that takes place. That is a good, refreshing, positive change. And with it, we're finally trying to make positive changes.
@@flavoredwallpaper Well no, the police are routinely accused of racially motivated murders when there is clear video evidence to the contrary. If you think that there is good evidence George Floyd or Duante Wright were both killed intentionally, and with a racial motive, you are out of your mind. But that is none the less what many people have concluded. The police are indeed demonised unfairly (look at officer Darren Wilson who literally did nothing wrong), and even in those cases where the police have done something wrong, there is no appreciation for the fact that they are frequently panicking under what are understandably very stressful situations, and are instead characterised as killing purely out of racial malice, even though none of the BLM era killings have any evidence to support this claim.
And I dont know what positive changes you are referring to, but the chief accomplishment of BLM has been to discourage the police from policing, resulting in literally thousands of incremental deaths in the form of murder alone since 2014, (and it also appears to have lead to thousands of incremental deaths as a result of an increase in reckless driving also). The loss of life alone utterly dwarfs the number of unjustified police killings, even if you could eliminate these entirely, which in a country of hundreds of millions of people is just not realistic. And if there has been a spike in murders and dangerous driving, there has been no doubt a spike in virtually all other crime also. All because your nation cannot have a mature attitude about a handful of events (which are routinely misrepresented) occurring within a massive population.
@@flavoredwallpaper Things can turn fast and it did during the last 18 months.
The amount of people, left and right, that need to hear this conversation and actually understand it, is roughly 300 million people....
This was such a great perspective. It’s a shame it will never reach the public at large.
It should!
@@LL-pn2gp For sure! I don’t think a lot of people even want to hear it though. They want to focus all attention on race, which is a factor, but it doesn’t tell the whole story in my opinion. This podcast sheds some light on that.
I totally agree. Race is the narrative right now. And any information that deviates from that isn’t welcome into the conversation. And man that’s unfortunate.
Maybe if Rogan had him on his podcast the msg could go wider
@@DemocritusWept Yeah I’m surprised he hasn’t. Maybe he will soon. Seems like a no brainer.
these talks are always enlightening.
ok, it's more a monologue
Where those links at
You can find the links in Sam's website, in the description of this episode.
Law enforcement's role has been made untenable. We are an overpoliced society. There are too many paths that lead to enforcement. I recognize that exploring solutions to this problem should remain exhaustive, but training police to grapple is only possibly a good solution to a small portion of the larger problem as I see it. The firearm is always there and control of it must always be retained by the officer. That makes closing distance with resistant suspects/detainees problematic. Great topic, great discussion, great host and guest. Thank you.
You did not listen to the whole video. And we are not overpoliced. We are quickly moving toward being under policed.
@@somethingawesome9547 You are entitled to your opinion. One thing that stands out immediately is an allegation without merit. You could have alleged that I had not heard or adequately comprehended the information in the video, but instead, you alleged that I did not listen.
@@Shnonan RUclips Comments is not a viable forum to have a philosophical discussion. But you Westerners do not have the slightest notion of “over policed.”
I am not sure if I am getting the gist of this right, but it seems the problem is 1) highly untrained police 2) police having a gun. Seems if every police officer was properly trained, and didn't have a gun readily available, many of these issues would solve themselves?
There appears to be a huge issue between rightfully bearing arms per your 2nd amendment rights, and then law enforcement immediately perceiving that as a threat.
We all know the public is not smart. Expecting the public to act in a more rational way than "trained" officers seems like a tall order. It should be incumbent on the officers and departments to act properly, instead of expecting the public to act properly.
I have been saying this for years. US police has the lowest training of any police force in any civilized country.
Not enough training, too many deadly toys. It's like handing out grenades to children.
And an environment where people are trying to kill them which makes them very jumpy
I don't know about the training in different countries, but I believe being a Police officer in the US is way more difficult than in many other countries. For example in my country in central Europe, almost nobody has guns and homicides are almost a non issue for a police officer. It's a whole different job almost.
@@CanariasCanariass
Yeah. You "believe" because we all grew up with american police shows on TV. Showing us how ultra professional and best in the world they are. But thats the thing. US police receive almost zero training. And the same goes for a lot of other things. Its a country of PROUD amateurs. It can be hard to understand that things arent like how we believe.
For example every law & order and every episode of CSI... NOTHING works like that in reality.
@@captain_context9991
Doesnt it make a huge difference though about what state of the US we are talking about, or is the training the same in every state? Do you live in the US?
Sam you should get Donut Operator on here
Great conversation
Jujitsu is a sport fighting style. People who practice ju jitsu do so under rules, no biting, no scratching, no gouging or fish hooks. Won't work in a real fight. Also cops don't have the luxury of assuming some one wont help a culprit. Ju jitsu is useless against more than one person. The risk of having your gun pulled and shot with it is also non existent in ju jitsu practice.
Great points to me which show that jujitsu sport fighting style training alone would not be the best type of training for many situations police would encounter. Jujitsu type training definitely wouldn't hurt, and could still be helpful in many ways, but this of course would only be part of the overall training police officers need.
@@randychase9931 definitely. It would be a type of training you wouldnt lean into, but would be nice to have for when things don't go as planned.
Can't get over the fact that some people think that rear naked choke holds are *not* for police to use to subdue a combative subject. It's just nuts to me. It's fine for the sport, but not fine for cops to employ.
I think the cops needs a good degree of jujitsu training in order to actively use it (rather than react in personal defense). If you are not sufficiently skilled then I'm assuming it is a really bad idea to close distance to subdue a subject who might have a knife, or friends, or pepper spray. Tasers are available.
@@leonais1 It seems that tasers are sufficiently unreliable that use of a taser comes with risk that it simply doesn't stop someone who is high or if one of the prongs are blown off course and misses, or hits a clothing seam. They work almost perfectly when the subject is perfectly still, standing and centered, shoulders square; thin attire.
@@leonais1 cops have to close the distance to make the arrest. A cop is actively using a rear naked chokehold often in personal defense but more often as a way to subdue someone which would be offensive.
I had a thought recently and it brought me back to this video.
Specifically, they discuss the "amygdala hijack", wherein there is a fight or flight response.
I bring this up because I have heard 2 rather strange stories of people resisting arrest recently.
The first is of an ATF agent in plain clothes that was carrying his credentials. Somebody called the police on him, and he resisted. Why?
The second is about a member of the Michigan state legislature. I don't know all the specifics, but he also resisted arrest. Why?
The thought I have is this: is it possible that when faced with arrest, people have a fight or flight response that they cannot control?
It would explain a lot of situations that have been happening and why people react in the way they do.
This leads me to a second thought: is the demonization of police in the media contributing to that involuntary response?
I would think yes.
I also think that past interactions with police would definitely have an effect as well.
But to get to the level of the ATF agent, who knows full well that all he has to do is obey their instructions and then show them his credentials when he gets a chance, there has to be some kind of involuntary response to the situation.
I listened to this podcast today and thought the same thing. Is there some sort of reflexive button that gets triggered when someone tries to put their hands on us because we as humans don't have people touching us in this manner as a whole unless your in an abusive relationship. The media is definitely culpable in making people feel as though they have to worry when in fact police as a whole do a very good job given the job inevitably requires force hence the name police force. Overall, deaths by police (most justified) are about 1,000 a year. Compare that to 200,000-400,000 depending on the source for medical mistakes. The issue is as Rener mentioned is people really don't understand what it takes to arrest a non-compliant person much less with someone with something to lose who may be on drugs. They view these suspects as having done little wrong; the lead-up to the arrest gets buried. It's the only profession I can think of where people feel justified in criticizing people for how they do their job without knowing much about what they deal with daily and how that can lead to hyper vigilance. The general public thinks these suspects are folks just minding their own business who all of a sudden lose their life. I think some public education is in serious order. Just my 2 cents coming from a former court bailiff. Cops don't want to get hurt and risk their careers or injury. It works both ways; suspects and cops have their amygala hijacked. I fear for your nation if the media doesn't stop sensationalizing these stories without showing the other side of the coin. I don't know much about BJJ and although more training in defensive tactics is obviously necessary, the situations cops face would be different than a controlled situation taught in a class. I think BJJ would help but there is still IMO loads of room for things to go sideways because suspects aren't every day citizens; they are usually repeat offenders who are willing to fight to avoid prison and that will to escape is going to be higher than the people they train with in a sterile setting.
Amazing episode, I learned a ton from listening to this.
Training is one thing ; I think pay is also an issue. Basically, if you are forced to recruit from the bottom of the barrel...
@@ZachGood I became a teacher in a second career. I need a gun!
Fantastic interview
Iam of from Syria and I love you ❤️❤️
This episode inspired me to start BJJ last week and I’m loving it.
Enjoy the journey!
Every time he says "Sam," take a drink.
Haven't listened to this yet- I must know what Rener thinks about the Ashley Babbit killing at the capital. Please get an answer to this pointed question comrade.
Don't have this problem in the UK and our police are equally as useless at grappling. Teaching US cops BJJ will save a few unnecessary deaths but reforming gun licensing and reducing the number of guns on the street should be the main focus.
It doesn't help that we've had a "fuck the police" sub-culture for decades. Actually, not really a sub-culture anymore.
Amazing! Loved it.
A question I have is why some things aren't changed for such a long time until the issues get so big. Same with the laws in New York, did they not talk with police and other experts before they impose those rules? Surely if they hear disallowing these holds will increase injuries and violence, it should make them rethink that strategy. Was this advice given before those rules were implemented?
It seems in the best interest for the police to teach de-escalation tactics and non-lethal suppression tactics for both suspects, themselves and civilians. Why does it take decades to start this process?
Basically: Why don't institutions more proactively improve their methods with help of experts in the field where necessary? (I do believe an example of that is police and FBI negotiation tactics, these were reworked from scratch from the 80's I believe)
How many times a day does a policeman arrest an unarmed resisting suspect? Is Jui-Jitsu fought between widely different weight groups or between fighters within the same weight group? To be fair, do the police have to match a resisting suspect with a policeman of the same weight class? How many women took part in those early all-comer jiu-jitsu experiments?
"What I'm speculating and what I feel is often the case is you have a good person, who is doing the job for the right reason. But even the best cop, the best moral character, the best values. The best cop on the planet let's just say. The second they're in a situation that they are not prepared to handle non-violently, they're going to handle it violently." - Rener Gracie
acab in a nutshell
Should be AHAB then, no?
The Game Changers on netflix explains UFC really well too
The way gracie keeps adding "and girls" reminds me of James Acaster
😄this is a straight up ad for ju ji tsu !
Although, I totally agree with this approach (i.e.teach cops more ju ji tsu). I would add mental health reform for cops.
All valid commentary about physical restraint presented here notwithstanding... I wonder what effect a concerted application of acute social isolation would have on the problem of arresting people. Assuming that the great majority of the anecdotes that drive the perception of this problem include suspects who, despite their various dispositions, nonetheless have family, friends, and coworkers who, in ordinary circumstances, could be relied upon to more effectively de-escalate the suspect's aggravation, why not just somehow 'encircle' them (thus arresting their movement) and allow the tedium of time and social opprobrium to do their pacifying work? Surely, in the case of resistors of arrest, this will cost more resources but overall it may be found to be highly cost effective. With it's prediction, on the part of any potential arrestee of such a subdued, protracted, and viscerally boring affair, the typical otherwise resistant arrestee may become resigned to 'getting it over with'.
Can someone get this podcast to Bernie Sanders?
Sam, can you get someone on your podcast to actually talk about racism in policing and the criminal justice system? Because you seem to LOVE deflecting that notion (despite all the statistics and studies that say otherwise), and I think it'd greatly benefit everyone to hear some other perspectives. It's obviously not "all" about racism, but it most definitely plays an important role in every aspect of the criminal justice system: policing, prosecuting, and judging.
This has been my biggest (almost only) qualm with Harris's coverage on policing. He's generally ready (and often well equipped) to dispel race related notions, but not once have I heard him discuss it with anyone claiming to be an authority on the matter (though that interview may exist somewhere I suppose, just not this podcast).
@@dylanrepasky9748 Yep. I'd love to see him bring someone like Radley Balko onto the podcast to talk about policing in America.
He does talk about statistics in the “can we pull back from the brink” podcast. How most aggression against black and or brown people, are committed by black and or brown police. And how according to statistics, whites are more likely to be shot than others by police. Among many other things. Don’t just speak a whole narrative like that as if it’s just one big racist conspiracy going on....
Iam of from Syria and I love you
Gracie does repeat the fairly egregious canard of the barber license. 1500 hours would be almost an entire year of full-time education. It's ludicrous to suppose that's actually happening or is necessary. To the degree it exists It's an example of regulatory capture used by large established cartels to keep small single-person businesses from competing.
I think it's also unlikely that many agencies in CA are just hitting the minimum AND I very much doubt the 664 hours counts field training.
I'm not in CA but for me to get hired several years ago I had to put in some hundreds of hours at a community college to be eligible for licensure. I already had a BA and military experience before that (Army) My hiring agency then put on an academy, 28 weeks full time for a total of 1,120 hours. Following that was five months of full-time field training, working a car with experienced officers.
I absolutely would love to have an hour a week of paid BJJ, but we needn't replicate pernicious mischaracterizations of the profession to advocate for that.
Uneventful arrests are the norm. They're just never seen. I've been recorded taking care of numerous arrests of non-compliant individuals. Mysteriously no one bothers uploading those videos, they don't become viral, etc. 10M arrests every year are represented by 3-5 viral incidents a year. Again, I'd love to get paid to roll, but we needn't overstate how bad the current situation is.
Yes, I agree. The general public is using the 3-5 viral incidents as a benchmark of what the job is really like. As someone who lives in California and worked as a police officer for about 3 years, the training is almost exactly what you had, 7 month academy and minimum 4 months on the job. Police are not as undertrained as Rener Gracie makes it out to be. The problem as I see it is the publics perceptions of the entire job as whole. Just from reading these comments, it's clear people don't understand much of what it entails. It's the only profession where people feel comfortable in Monday morning quarterbacking a cops every decision without the years of training and experience a cop has. I think everyone in the public needs to try doing F.A.T.S. (firearms training simulator) for starters.
Boston Dynamics are making new police as we speak .
considering how bad self-driving AI is, this is hilarious. With driving you have everybody on the road following certain rules and you have thousands of road markers every mile to help the AI. You have nothing analogous in policing situations.
@@quintonwilson8565 ... Extrapolate what our current drone systems do .. into a boston dynamics bipedal drone , the officer is in a stress and danger free environment sat in a secure area , and controls his metal analogue in the real world . Very unlikely to make the wrong decision out of fear and would have controllers / supervisors giving them instruction .
This was the best infomercial I've ever listened to. But seriously, I wish every member of the public was forced to listen to this. Under threat of being submitted by Rener.
Fantastic solutions proposed here, but my lord, Rener just put me in a 2 hour choke hold of redundancy.
Rener Gracie seems extremely enthusiastic in support of BJJ for cops in this one. How well can it work? Well, as often as the person being arrested isn't carrying a weapon of any kind and isn't better at BJJ than the cop. In this podcast he talks about small, frail elderly being able to subdue significantly larger, stronger men (even men hopped up on meth and fentanyl), but that seems spurious to me. Notice we don't see many videos of grandma putting an 18 year old thug into submission; because it can't happen.
"Jiu jitsu training"
Jocko Willink and Joe Rogan have entered the chat
Pull that up Jamie
It looks like the same 'no touching the torso' rules are coming to California.
There are 697,195 Full-time Police Officers currently in the United States (many more part-time). While I agree on so much talked about in the video, it is important to know the limitations of this talent pool. While there are individuals, who in a former, or alternate, career path might have served in military SOF... most can't.
The selection criteria for US military SOF is, by many orders of magnitude, more challenging than it is for most Police Officers. We're not talking about FBI HRT or NYPD ESU, we are talking about the average Police Officer. Most are selfless and noble, but are not screened, trained, equipped to perform like a Special Operator can.
Just like not all Veterans are Elite, neither are most Police Officers. A concern I have when it comes to the Outstanding minds like Sam Harris and Joe Rogan, is that they may experience ‘Frequency Bias’ from the types of Veterans and Police Officers which they are around (whom I would submit are of a significantly higher caliber than what the overall talent pool represents).
Not a dig, just a practical limitation. Please keep up the awesome work!
--Regular Guy
Seems to me the best, most meaningful way to cut back on violent encounters with the police (encounters, period) would be to finally end Prohibition and decriminalize drugs. A lot of the widespread antipathy toward police results from their hassling/arresting/imprisoning/ruining lives over things that aren't even morally wrong.
@ZK Tay I don't see how anyone has ever figured drug USE to be morally wrong, and with liquor stores everywhere, I don't know how anyone can argue with a straight face that dealing them is, either. Not to mention prescription-happy doctors and Big Pharma, who aggressively markets all manner of substances to us. That strikes me as an incredibly naïve perspective, which never developed any further than graduation from some junior high school's D.A.R.E program.
@ZK Tay Okay... How do you figure it is? How is someone, in the privacy of his own home, putting a substance into his own body, harming you? Doesn't this argument sound familiar? What has this person done that requires him to be imprisoned and labelled a felon? Is it immoral to drink alcohol or smoke cigarettes? Does the law have the final say on what is moral and what is immoral? Does a doctor's signature necessarily transform the use of certain substances (amphetamines, benzos or opiates) from a immoral, criminal act into valid treatment?
You know, it does you no good to simply assert something is ignorant or immoral. Share your thoughts; I would be fascinated to hear your reasoned argument!
@ZK Tay I will never accept it is the right of the majority to control the personal choices of individuals, in cases where their behavior, in and of itself, harms no one else. Reason is the only way to decide what is morally acceptable, and ideally, the law should follow reason. Not everyone who drinks becomes a drunk driver; not everyone who uses amphetamines (which are prescribed regularly to children) becomes a raving lunatic, out to mug you; not everyone who eats at McDonald's becomes obese and infringes on precious tax dollars. By your logic, no dangerous activities should be allowed: no wingsuit diving, no dangerous stunts, no fast food or soft drinks...
The same arguments were brought to bear on the subject of homosexual behavior, by people looking to control other people's personal choices of what to do with their own lives and selves. Again, just because a certain view is taken to be a "law" by some people, does not necessarily make it moral. Morality is not decided by majority vote. Any reference to "social condemnation" usually marks someone out as belonging to the new Woke religion, which is rapidly adopting arguments, attitudes and tactics that traditionally belonged to rightwing Christians. Personal freedom, of choice and speech, far supersedes the will of a self-righteous mob in every case. Suicide is not a sin; homosexuality is not a sin; personal drug use is not a sin.
What strikes me as immoral is the criminalizing and imprisonment of people over things that are nobody's business but their own. A puritanical society, with its nose perpetually stuck in people's private affairs, would not represent the height of morality. Were the charade of generations-long prohibition to end, so would most gang/cartel violence, mass incarceration, and the spread of even more dangerous, impure drugs. It would also mark the most important step that could be taken, to achieve true racial justice (hell, justice for everyone) in the criminal system, which I am sure you are also concerned about. I won't even get started on the lies and propaganda that stirred the hysteria of the public and led to prohibition, of all kinds, in the first place...
@ZK Tay Who is promoting the idea that drugs are harmless? All I ever heard from official sources, from grade school on up, was hysterical fearmongering and outright lies. Deliberate miseducation breeds contempt in youth smart enough to realize they are being spoon-fed propaganda, and that drugs and drug users are not Satan incarnate. A climate of fear and demonization is never healthy, no matter the subject.
I do not value drug use in and of itself. I value respecting people's privacy and their rights over their own selves. I have a neutral reaction when I hear someone uses drugs; I neither judge nor applaud their actions, but I respect their right to be left alone. That is the whole point. The scary brainwash never "took" with me, so I will never comprehend the apparently irresistible urge to butt into people's business with the presumption I know best how to run their private lives.
I knew a variety of different types growing up, and the only ones who struck me as "lobotomized" were the ones who experienced the abuse of being heavily indoctrinated into religion at a young age. The symptoms are always the same: a horrified fascination with things they are forbidden to partake in and know nothing about themselves; that awful judgmental streak, which will never let them be happy living their own lives until they have forced everyone else to live their way, too... Always, ignorance, fear and hypocrisy.
What causes misery to humanity: unjust laws that punish what isn't crime and contribute to the ruination of countless lives. Ignorance. Fear. False education/mass indoctrination into lies. I don't know how you can say that religious/puritanical societies always emerge triumphant. Yeah, Saudi Arabia and North Korea: two of the most progressive, desirable places to live in the world. I live in a particularly puritanical state, which trains each generation to be properly terrified of drugs and pornography. My state is the leader of prescription drug abuse, antidepressant prescriptions, and online pornography.
Your presumption that you have THE truth about drugs, and your eagerness to force it on everyone else, is appalling, but depressingly common. It has long been the norm to judge and punish people based on implanted ignorance regarding this matter of freedom and public health, but it wasn't always, and won't be again. OR has already taken a brave first step.
@ZK Tay I wanted to add that, to certain people (Sam Harris, say), the psychedelic experience is one of the most profound, beautiful, even "spiritual" to be had by human beings. Besides that, these substances show great potential in helping people overcome a variety of disorders. Also, smoking some weed is a lot kinder to your mind, body and "soul" than what a doctor will give you, if you go tell him or her you are sad or in pain.
I want to hear Sam talk about the latest riots over a girl who was literally in the act of murdering another girl.
Can you throw me a link to that?
@@thunkjunk I believe this was a reference to the Ma'Khia Bryant shooting. Just google it.
Hello, Sam Harris! In your book "The End of Faith", you have argued against pragmatism, the highest form of relativism, and against it, respectively. Do you have a more extensive refutation of relativism?
"Police officers should be better fighters." There, now you can skip the first 50 minutes.
Devils advocate:
Jujitsu does not transform a 120lb woman into a powerhouse that can cuff 240lb men who are resisting. A taser does.
Jujitsu does not keep people out of range of stabbing/biting. A taser does.
Cross section of people who are likely to become proficient at jujitsu, have enough raw strength to begin with to make it effective against a wide range of real world opponents, and are interested in serving in law enforcement? I feel like this is not a large enough cross section for this to pan out as a good investment from a managed risk and managed cost perspective. It sounds great in an infomercial but the department has to consider which training and tools provide the maximum return on investment.
I do not believe that departments should be asking their officers to put down their tasers and batons in favor of a "new-age" hand-to-hand combat solution that significantly reduces their advantage against opponents in an attempt to resolve a PR problem that has very little to do with police and very much to do with woke mental disorders.
There is a very unusual new phenomena in society, where a large percentage of the population believes that resisting arrest is supposed to be a fair fight where the criminal is supposed to have a chance to win. The officer is supposed to only elevate the fight to the level of violence and leverage that the criminal chooses. Any time the police elevate their level of force to ensure a swift application of cuffs and minimal risk to the officers there's outrage from the woke mob.
The cross section of people willing to risk the rest of their life being destroyed by the mob and people who are interested in law enforcement is rapidly shrinking. Focus on resolving the woke mob problem else there won't be any officers remaining to teach jujitsu.
With that said. Yes. More jujitsu. More training.
After tasing, what's next? Nobody is advocating for an old school brawl. Who said to put away tasers and batons? The point is these techniques help with securing someone on the ground. There have been countless cases of someone being tased and still being a problem due to a lack of technique on what to do with the weakened body. I agree with your last statement, but 99% of this comment is a strange strawman.
@@CanditoTrainingHQ The response is titled devils advocate for a reason. It's an exercise in considering that there could be flaws and/or misrepresentations in the reasoning/rationale/benefits given for jujitsu training. I listened to this video and found myself thinking that it seems unreasonable that jujitsu training isn't standard practice and tried to come up with some real world explanations for why it isn't and didn't have to try very hard to rationalize my way right out of it the way most departments probably do. ROI is probably not as good as other mechanisms because to make jujitsu useful it requires a huge time and muscle memory development/investment similar to useful firearm training. It also creates a situation where some officers who have the strength and pain tolerance to perform the moves are doing something different in the field than those who do not, so it causes a breakdown in standard operating procedures, which, from a management perspective looks like more liability.
I think it's worth trying to get departments on board with this, but I think it's a much harder sell than is obvious.
@@mdocod if someone lacks the strength and pain tolerance to train jiu jitsu they definitely don't need to be a cop. 120lb men compete in jiu jitsu. Jiu jitsu has been around since UFC 1, it's far from new age. The idea that jiu jitsu reduces a person's hand to hand combat effectiveness is laughable. Jiu jitsu teaches students to only use as much effort as needed, something that coincides with use of force. It's literally the science of grappling with a resisting opponent. A blue belt cop with a taser is much more effective and less likely to cap an innocent civilian than a normal cop with a taser. I get that you're playing devil's advocate but opinions like these should be ignored because they're ignorant and unwilling to change.
Tasers have a good tendency of not working. Shirts, jackets, sweaters etc can cause poor probe connection and even if you do get a good connection, some people barely respond to it. I'd recommend as a case in point checking the video of the man getting tased straight in the chest without any clothing, basically perfect connection, but the guy barely even flinches shouting, and I paraphrase "EXACTLY WHAT I NEEDED" before charging the officer. If you are alone on duty, you don't use a non-lethal as your primary because if it fails, you can die. Non-lethals are primarily used when you have a lethal cover, so a partner ready with a gun to make sure there is a backup. With multiple officers, you can layer non-lethals like combining tasers, mace, 40mm rubber/beanies, even flashbangs. But again, some people (I'm looking at you, people of Florida) seem scarily impervious to non-lethals (and even lethals, some people take an excess of +7 rounds before going down) while others it works well on so it is by no means a safe option.
Very well stated
This is really intense to listen to. I feel like I wanna go to the mat someone, anyone, RIGHT NOW!!!
A fantastic primer in the train wreck that is Police Training. So much of this may as well be verbatim from the cops that would come train jiu jitsu on their own time, without compensation or benefit, over 10 years ago. Well trained police does not fix enforcement of bad laws. Well trained police better enforce law with minimal casualty. What is also incredible is that 12 years of state mandated public education does not include law enforcement interaction education as standard. 'The Talk' that everyone needs has nothing to do with race pertaining to law enforcement. Similarly, the 'compassionate' need to be put in their place for all the states, counties, municipalities that make submission techniques illegal.
Here’s a question. Will gun violence against police uptick because suspects have to contend with a well trained officer with this new developed skill? Consequences are often times not predictable.
It could or it could have the opposite effect. I think it just depends on the person.
If they're undertrained we blame the police department.
It's the police departments explicit job to advocate (in positive ways that will be received) for funding for expanded non-lethal training, firearms training, etc. Literally THEIR JOB!
It's police officers duty to call for higher requirements in training for the profession nationwide.
Hell police unions exist to protect officers and help them, which makes it THEIR jobs as well to advocate positively for expanded non-lethal training, state policy reform, etc.
WHY AREN'T THEY DOING THAT?!?!
Either they're not doing it, or they're failing at their literal jobs. Given that it's a problem nationwide, I can only assume the former.
I'm sure SH has addressed this issue - but sure wish he did these conversations in video as well. Alas....
Hmm, I think it’s odd that they keep hammering the point that the general public that is concerned about police use of force believes that police are extremely well trained because as far as I’ve experienced the lack of police training is a huge known issue in the community of people concerned about the failures of policing and is something many people are arguing to be changed. Additionally police not being well trained in the law causing them to misunderstand or not know the laws and ordinances that they go on to misapply in enforcement is another aspect of the lack of training. Regardless of whether or not “99%” (hopefully that was just hyperbole by Sam) of the public understands that our police are woefully under trained, they definitely see the results of this and recognize that something is horribly wrong with our policing. The public is being failed by policing and there is nothing irrational about being angry, disappointed and afraid because a badly trained cop is dangerous and deadly just like a bad cop, frankly a poorly trained cop actually is a bad cop. Having said all of that, I think Rener is definitely doing something great and I hope that it catches on, I believe it really can make a difference and improve policing in America.
Hi sir you doing well
"Sooooooo.... what you're saying is you hate BIPOC???"
I was a British police officer for 30 years 95% of police officers had zero martial arts training .. Personally I hold a black belt at Judo but that took about 5 years of my personal time and a hell of a lot of training and fighting many 100s of hours, during which I suffered many injuries, its very hard for police forces to give the time and accept the injuries that result from realistic sparing but you can only really fight if you train with force and speed.
How often did people pull knives on you?
@@TheDani305 Twice but never pulled .. One was sitting on the flat of the blade and until I talked him down and he just handed it to me I never even realised he had a bloody knife .. And the other had a punch blade which again I never realised until the fight was over which luckily for me took about one second because I threw him and broke two of his ribs (concrete is HARD and 99% of people don`t know how to land)
i think sam should meditate about the concept of conflic of interest...he could be illuminated
With a Gracie talking about the Floyd knee on neck thing , all I can think about now is Renzo Gracie stepping on Spijkers' neck after the win.
At the time I wrote this, there were 66 dislikes on this podcast.
I'm curious to hear what the best argument out there is to dislike this podcast.
Woke-people do not like arguments, only to yell and scream slogans. :)
The fact that Sam seemed to be defending the police and neglecting that this necessary violence is happening to a certain race could be the reason.... I dont know. Just a guess
@@amistoradebe1746 When analyzing such a comprehensive topic as this, one must have the facts clear: 1. In relation to the population, more blacks are stopped by the police than whites. 2. At the same time, there are more blacks among criminals than whites. The reason for this is both unfair socio-cultural and socio-cultural factors, however this still does not change the outcome. 3. If you compare the number of whites who are stopped by the police with the number of blacks who are stopped by the police, there is no greater chance of being killed if you are black. This, combined with countless other confusing factors means that you have to be very nuanced and I think Sam Harris really is. To intead shout: "BLM! Racism!" Tearing down statues, etc ... is not going to change anything. Sorry for the lack of better comparisons, but the demonstrations and riots there have been over the past year are just as pointless and ignorant as believing that you can fix a wristwatch by shouting at it and throwing it against the wall.
I agree cops need more training but it’s hard to listen to this when they both seem to be obviously ignoring the cases where cops shouldn’t have escalated a non-violent situation into a violent one themselves.
Such as?
I agree, but I listen to this in the context of only talking about those cases in which the cop has good intentions but is untrained and escalates out of fear or ignorance. Obviously, this isn’t all cases.
which cases are those? I contend they exist and far and few. The idea this happens on a daily basis is mind-boggling. We as a nation hear about these viral incidents once in a blue moon, which means that the 850,000 police out there are doing their jobs well day in and day out. This culture that something that become violent is somehow always the officers fault is erroneous but cops make mistakes as all people do in any profession. Doctors kill over 200,000 people a year while law enforcement accounts for 1,000 deaths of which only about 10 are not justified. The rest were valid shootings. How is it police get such a bad rap in a profession that requires force. Its in the name of their jobs; police force and there's no getting around that until people stop fighting cops. Cops are not the ones escalating the violence; the suspect is. There is no playbook for the endless ways in which a situation can go haywire. No amount of training will result in zero deaths or incidents of force when people attack cops. It's an unreasonable expectation in a challenging job that few people understand first-hand but feel justifiable offering up every critique under the sun. I speak from experience as someone with 3 years experience as a cop.
I have a few critiques of this podcast;
1. Having officers take a 40 hour certification, and then going out and training people who have had 0 hours of training.... seems like almost equally as bad of an idea as 4-8 hours a year of training.
2. 1 injury in 26,000 classes? You would expect more than one injury in 26,000 chess club meetings that number makes no sense.
3. We should train officers more isn't an interesting topic. We didn't really talk about the actual question, and I understand why Rener Gracie is not an expert in Police Politics hes an expert in BJJ. The interesting topic is why officers aren't being trained more/ why training isn't changing.
He said 26 hundred, which would be 2,600. Easy miss
@@be8420 you are absolutely right. I still stand by my point. Let's say there are 10 people in a class we're back to 26,000 events of a contact sport taking place with only one injury?
@@Bromeostasis I am right there with you, it seems extraordinary to claim only 1 injury. Unless it was more of a exhibit, rather than hands on training.
And not because bjj is dangerous. His point that bjj is safe for police to train I agree with. But there will just Naturally be a few injuries in any contact training/ sport. It's still worth doing.
Here is the video he refers to around 38:00: ruclips.net/video/T3nhh3HEDkg/видео.html
I wish the comments were enabled on that video because it'd be full of people saying what a terrible idea it is to get a suspect in your guard on the ground. Everyone who's practiced bjj with a holster knows it's pretty much wide open for the suspect's hand, hinders all your options and the primary defense is using it as BAIT for a kimura.
Suspect stronger than you? Knows more BJJ? Whoops... you just sacrificed your opportunity of using the one thing that would've saved your life.
Thanks!
Are you referring specifically to full guard and if so is it the stock standard one?
@@thelaw3536 The same full guard from your back that Gracie says this cop should have used
@@Norcalxx
I believe he modified it and controls the weapon arm. If you're worried about your other utility items, those can be modified to be harder to grab, say closer to the right it on the right or you can not have so much utility when you're this well trained... It depends on how much development he has for people carrying utility.
@@thelaw3536 Cops are not gonna bet their life on one roll with a random person off the street. The tactic itself isn't even practical because needing to control someone's hand in your guard leaves you open to bites and headbutts etc. Meanwhile if they get one hand on your gun while rolling you're now in a tug of war for your life.
Completely unreasonable to ask any officer to make the fight more fair while a suspect is trying to kill them.
I'm sorry, but Sam has no idea how police interactions go with poor people. Having been on both sides of the income Spectrum I can tell you that you get completely different treatment based on your address at the time. That goes with any form of government