Yahweh Inspired FALSE Religions to Prepare for Jesus?? (feat. Dr Dennis MacDonald)
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- Опубликовано: 29 май 2023
- For @ColdCaseChristianity J Warner Wallace, he used to consider the Bible to be more like mythology than history... and not even original mythology at that. But now, the good detective seems to think that God inspired all the false religions before Christianity as a way to signal how really-real Christianity is.
Dr Dennis MacDonald is probably known best for a methodology called mimesis criticism. That's the use of imitation of classical Greek poetry in particular in the composition of the gospels and the acts of the apostles. He's joining me today to see if Wallace's claims make sense.
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The Bible Did NOT Copy Other Religions
• The Bible Did NOT Copy...
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SIGN-UP FOR THE COURSE! www.tinyurl.com/GreekMacDonald READING THE GOSPELS WITH ONE EYE ON GREEK POETRY with Professor Dennis R. MacDonald
This is definitely one of the most flawed arguments Christianity has ever made.
@@stolasamon-seere5319 I prefer reading the new testament as an unbeliever and not being influenced by another's thought or interpretation. Understanding how much of the bible has been interpreted. To satisfy some theists viewpoint makes me want to avoid hearing what some thinks such and such means knowing the pope in 1932 used the sin of onan to justify banning Catholics using contraceptives, when it is painfully clear to me onan' sin was that he didn't do as his god commanded makes me want to not beinfluenced by another's interpretation. I think some very bad people have chosen to read into the bible what they desire hence we end up with property gospel shouters, greedy preachers who are destroying what the Christian church should be, christ wasn't about the money, hatred, fear.. whatever is preached from" Christian pulpits these days or politics hewasn't so immersed in the world hepartook of the myriad evils of the world he knew those evils and admonished his disciples when he sent them out to spread the word , to accept no payment for the gifts his disciples had received were freely given to them, by gifts I refer to the power to cast out demons and strang e thoughts coming from someone that doesn't believe in God huh? Tomy kind the Christian church has been brought low be greedy preachers and hate mongers, seekers of political power which is very corrupting. Enough from me I could go on...
@@davidnewland2461 Interpretation and omens and signs and superstition pretty much do it for me. Any system should be willing to accept evidentiary reality and should be able to, while improving, adapt to any new information, even if that information means that system is unviable. Admitting that inviability is an improvement.
In terms of Krsna, he gets it very wrong it's understood by all scholars all archetypes are embodied by Krsnas story his illustrations are ridiculous.
Cool Story but Jesus isnt real.@davidnewland2461
It kinda astonishes me that someone can look at a later figure with a ton of influences from past figures and legitimately try to make the argument "no you see my figure made the previous ones to strengthen his own case." Feels about as convincing as a plagerist making the argument "no you see, a time traveler stole my work and traveled back with it"
Wait..... so are you saying it wasn't time traveling plagerism?
And it's funny that a lot of christians try to use both sides of the argument to defend the bible. For example, I've seen people look at Noah's story and the ancient flood myths (Enuma Elish, gilgamesh) and say that oldest ones can't be the true story even if they came first. They must somehow be just early deviations of the true story who got rectified centuries later by the Israelites. But when other religions piggy back onto Judaic and christian lore, christians sure are quick to claim they are the right ones because they got there first.
It's a great example of someone interpreting the facts to privilege their own beliefs. No matter what the data are, they'll always be interpreted in some way that makes them evidence for Christianity.
@@dohpam1ne *they'll always be interpreted in some way that makes them evidence for Christianity.*
Often to the point of self-contradiction and/or being contradictory to other apologetics.
*What is the Beethoven paradox?*
A Beethoven fan goes back in time to meet his hero, taking along copies of all Beethoven's sheet music for the maestro to sign. But he can't find Beethoven anywhere and ends up copying and publishing the music himself, “becoming” Beethoven, but leaving the actual authorship of the music as a paradox.
Now substitute Paul in place of Beethoven.
There was no New Testament until someone traveled back in time to disseminate the writings of Paul.
Or, far more likely, someone was writing after the fact and borrowed elements from previous stories.
Story that came later resembles story that came earlier.
Normal people: "Oh, I guess the later story took inspiration from the earlier one, happens all the time."
Apologists: "DID GOD MIRACULOUSLY INSPIRE THE EARLIER STORY TO PREPARE US FOR THE LATER ONE?!???!1?!"
With this reasoning, i begin to wonder how many people are currently innocent in jail thanks to this "detective".
👀👀👀
You know Jesus was lamer than Krsna
Lol
I don't see the problem and contradiction between the theology of God's sovereignty and human free will there. If God exists, why couldn't He? This video raised some great points though, of looking more on the human level of these similarities. But that doesn't change anything in terms of God's possible involvement in it.
I’ve heard my brother say that it was actually Satan inspiring false deities with similar attributes before Jesus so that way it would be harder to believe in Jesus later on 😂
Or Satan raised Jesus from the dead to draw people away from Judaism.
i don't really see much difference between satan and god, it's very much like the superman / bizarro world stories, where the bizarro's world is so opposite it's comes back to being the same as our world.
apart from satan being more trustworthy than god of course. at least satan buys your soul, he doesn't threaten you with an eternity in heaven if you don't sign up.....
Considering the majority of all humans throughout history and currently alive today are not Christians, I've got to hand it to Satan - his false gods campaign has been WILDLY successful. God must be extremely jealous.
Of course that begs the question "Why would god allow Satan to confuse everyone?"
@@jasonsabbath6996 oh to test us of course
Listening to J. Warner Wallace, I keep visualizing Graham Hancock asking, "Is it possible that all these myths descend from an earlier, lost civilization? Or are they evidence of alien visitors, teaching early humans about the gods?"
Graham Hancock read the Time-Life Mysteries of the Unknown book series and thought they were factual. 🤣
glad someone is finally refuting this apologist zealot. the fact all the believers are still drinking the koolaid hes giving out
I remember when the history channel had real historical documentaries and now it's ancient aliens and alternative facts
i love how yahweh went back in time and made better mythology to prepare us for his mythology where he's the villain of his own story so we know how true it is
"My Jesus brings all the boys to the yard
And they're like, he's better than yours
Damn right he's better than yours
He can teach you, but he has to charge"
Been saying it for years: fanfic evolved from religion and mythology
Instant like! As a former fundo christian, this is almost exactly how I processed ancient deity myths.
I spent most of my life as an independent Fundamentalist Baptist, until I lost faith in religious claims all together 2017, and I remember when I went to hundreds of church meetings across the United States, I heard our preachers claim that the devil created these similar ancient myths, but that the details in the myths actually happened with the exception of the existence of the Gods, but that the devils and demons gave humans powers to do miracles. Some of these preatures were also dumb enough to say that the devil planted dinosaur fossils to make the Earth appear older than the seven thousand years that we were taught the Earth was. Funny enough, not all of the preachers believed this but some of them did include this Malarkey in their sermons.
Congratulations on making it out.
Even non fundamentalists would have seen it the same way
The way I processed it when I was younger was with the mentioned men of renowned in the old testament. The half angel half human hybrids mentioned had extra abilities, looked different than people, and spoke differently. I believed that those "myths" could have been real, same as dragons. Most cultures include some mention of dragons, demons, spirits, and some sort of higher being. I just assumed the consistency made it more likely that the mythological topics were real than a mass hope and wish for better and an attempt to control people. But here we are, watching paulogia for hours. Cheers to anyone else at the top of the slide.
This was a masterpiece Paul! It's wonderful that you had Dennis translate into a cartoon. In the end, may we all become a cartoon/deity 😝
When are you gonna become a cartoon???
Better watch out.
Paul's gonna take your job of alternately reading passages with Dennis😆
It's amazing that I never considered this aspect of theistic stories. That Jesus was 'a better version' of previous heroes is fascinating.
That's the centuries of christian's privileging their own narrative for you.
Was early christianity in a conversation with the dominant cultures around it? Of course. That's what it means to be a minority.
But that's not what christian's have wanted to believe for a long time. The idea of superiority, as MacDonald points out, goes right back to the gospels.
"Our deity is better than your deity. In fact. Our whole group was superior all along. It just took a while for everyone else to acknowledge it."
CS Lewis talked about Christianity being a focusing of prior ideas about god.
Honestly, I now view it as a weaker version. Heroes should struggle, and lose occasionally. Heroes should make mistakes and LEARN from them. Not only can I not remember Jesus making a mistake, but, if Jesus truly is God, if he truly is the omnipotent ruler of everything, then every moment of struggle becomes meaningless theater that he's just doing for his own amusement. The theology as Christian's preach it now makes the whole thing completely absurd.
Jesus doesn't triumph over anything. He's omnipotent, the entire story is just him being melodramatic for it's own sake.
it's pretty much accepted Interpretation for the prophet chain Moses - Elijah - Jesus, that they one uppped the previous "best prophet" in the narration.
@@Ugly_German_Truths Not only that, you've got the "borrowed" flood myth where your god shits on your neighbour's god. See Digital Hammurabi for details on that.
Why does J Warner Wallace call Zoroaster a "god" rather than a prophet, as he is normally referred to?
Loved Dr Dennis MacDonalds commentary, I really enjoyed how he was not just looking at what Wallace said, but also what he did NOT say and the visual framing around it. Combined with Pauls more down to earth analogies it worked really well! I hope we see this team up again in the future.
He’s endured Christian brainwashing to the extent that the concept of a prophet is synonymous with a god.
Ignorance?
Might be a refusal to acknowledge anyone but abrahamic prophets as "prophets", to basically gatekeep the distinction, which is funny, since Zoroaster precedes all of them.
The thing that actually got me to really question my faith was taking a world religions course in college. It was actually taught by an active Episcopal priest. Learning about the earlier religions that Christianity borrowed from was really hard for me to reconcile with what I had been taught in Church.
What made you keep your faith then, if it's not too personal of a question?
@@ETBrothers Oh, I didn't. I held on for a while but eventually let go of it.
@@ryantate64 so even though you held on for a while, you kinda let go already when you were faced with the course that contradicted what you'd learnt in church?
Paul, you need a new jingle to use in future videos. "My god's better than your god", to the tune of the old dog food ad. Same increased tempo and instrumentation as the "For the Bible tells me so" jingle. I'm sure you'd find plenty of uses for it!
🤣
I believe you have proven your point.
I hope Christian's understand why they should be careful of what they believe in the future.
I haven’t seen apologists ever discuss the fact that the gospel of John claims that Jesus is the “Logos” a word that gets translated as “the word,” which most lay Christians assume is referring to the scripture. Logos was a deified, anthropomorphic form of the laws of nature and logic, but took on the characteristics of a demiurge in Hellenistic Judaism. All this to say, you can very clearly see early Christianity baking pre-existing Greek philosophy into their Christology.
Led Zeppelin didn't rip off all of those blues artists. They were just getting us ready for the genius of Page and Plant.
But Page and Plant were way better and creative than Babble writers. So I give them a pass.
Except Led Zeppelin didn’t rip off anyone. That’s just an embarrassing lie repeated by people who don’t listen to the blues or Led Zeppelin. And what Led Zeppelin did was genius.
@@DoctorBiobrain ok felicia.
@@DoctorBiobrain Bro all Rock and Roll is derivative from Blues, at least indirectly.
@Doctor Biobrain yes they did, they even admitted as much. It's only going to be an issue if it's big, and if it's big it's not a problem is what Page said.
What an incredible dive into literary criticism. I really appreciate the detailed, side by side comparisons between the Odyssey and Mark and how the author of Mark drew upon this classic work. Dr. DM does persuade one to his point of view.
Thank you, David!
This was very eye opening. I was aware that many similar ideas of gods and godlike figures were around the Mediterranean, but not the kind of comparable and competitive identity-building narratives as discussed by MacDonald here. It's very interesting, and much more reasonable than Wallace's claim that appears to be that God inspired dozens of people in at least one part of the world to tell similar stories (specifically the ones with which the gospel authors would most likely be familiar) in order to prime audiences to be more receptive to Jesus's real story. Should we not also see that, on listing all known story elements of ancient cultures and performing a minimally biased analysis (trying not to make the Texas Sharpshooter Fallacy) on which story elements are common and to what extent they are clearly depicted, find that they are all embodied by Jesus and not just more similar if they are from closer places and times? How do the stories of Jesus compare with Mayan, Inuit, Maori, Japanese, and Indonesian traditions for example?
If jebus even existed he was nothing more than a first-century Galilean cult leader. And there seem to be many roaming around the Galilee and Judea in the first century CE.
Ive recently found dr macdonalds work and I guess i could use the warm my heart type language to describe my feelings to it. This methodology of reading early christian literature brings new life into the text that no christian has ever been able to do for me. Truly makes the work as beautiful as the rest of the ancient world and places it in its proper context as early mythology. Very fascinating stuff from an antropological standpoint
They make me laugh (or maybe cry!) “When Jesus turns the water into wine ……”. No! “When Jesus ALLEGEDLY turned the water into wine.”
This was absolutely amazing! Dr. MacDonald is an absolute treasure; I learned several new things watching y'all. This was an extremely powerful, technical, and competent critique, and now I'm really excited to watch his course! Thank y'all!
😀👍🐧🐧
(Also, the existence of apologetics kinda debunks the whole ideology, because if the Bible is an errant, or inspired by a god, why do we need these people to clarify so much of it? So many non-scholarly books, and let's be honest, so many lies and misrepresentations. So yeah, the existence of apologists & apologetics kinda debunks the very ideas that the apologists are trying to convince you of. Also, most of them do it with zero irony or self-awareness, which shows me that the vast majority of Christian apologists are grifters, taking advantage of a gullible and undereducated group of Christians who are desperate to hold on to their faith.)
Very fascinating from your guest speaker here.
Now, this isn't particularly religiosity related. But I always wonder a bit at the "Universality of human experience and storytelling". A simple compare and contrast I like to use, because I'm familiar with the stories?
East vs West. Particularly looking at Japan, China, Korea, etc. Their own stories also have a heavy leaning into social status and fate, bloodlines and the status of birth. A lord is a lord is a lord, meant to be so and is a lord because they were assigned that status by fate before they ever were born.
While often western literature focuses primarily on virtue based on personal actions. Yes King Arthur is the son of the former King... but he wields his power, achieves his status, and maintains his position because he embraces the virtues seen as that of a noble ruler. When he stops acting like a noble ruler, his power and status fails him.
There's a bigger difference I find between various cultures, and their beliefs and world views than a synchronism between them. Yes it's easy to look at related cultures (like the Levant, Greece, and Egypt, who do share historical backgrounds and cultural influences) and pick out similarities. It's far harder to say, hear the myths and stories of the Chinook people (a native tribal culture in the Pacific Northwest of North America) and say that's exactly like Catholic Rome.
Maybe it's just me, but when I find most people make those comparisons, it's how it goes. It seems like J Warner Wallace did that. He compared Hellenic and Persian sources to Jewish and eventually Christian, all culturally influential and intermingled places. He's not talking about how say, Vishnu from India was totally set to prepare the sub continent for the arrival of Christian Missionaries with the colonization of the sub continent. Or how Amaterasu in Japan was set up to prepare Japan for the arrival of Portuguese Missionaries. And considering the sheer social upheaval that their presence actually caused in Japan... if so, they did a very piss poor job of it as it didn't "Prepare" them for it but lead to riots and revolts.
Edit: Because well... if there was an all powerful all knowing all good divine figure leading such things... I would expect that he'd have a bigger scope than even one planet, big universe out there. But even on the scope of a single planet, would you know, cover the entire planet and not just a single set of closely related geographic regions which had constant contact with each other, but not those outside of it.
And you can also plug in whatever values you want into Wallace’s “reasoning”. Might as well claim that Amaterasu was sent to prepare Japan to invade Korea, which it then did.
Or that the real reason the Portuguese introduced Catholicism in Japan was so Anno could create Neon Genesis Evangelion, with its Christian imagery galore.
Wallace never once considering Asian or Native American culture, or African or Pacific Islander for that matter, is because he is painfully Euro-centric; he doesn't even consider North African except Egypt (and barely Egypt at all except in relation to Judaism). He's one of those that subconsciously ignores the history and cultures of anything south of Egypt or east of Israel. It's the same for anything west of California after European colonization.
To be fair, Hinduism probably would have been part of that melange as well, thanks to Alexander the Great conquering India. I know it wasn't a huge part of the Hellenistic world, but it was there. Also, Ancient Greek is part of the Indo-European language family, same as Vedic Sanskrit, and there are similar linguistic markers in some deity names between the two. So they're not entirely unrelated religions, though they are admittedly very distant cousins. And several Hindu gods ended up getting syncretized into Shinto, so there's some connection there (though not with Amaterasu). Honestly, Europe and Asia aren't nearly as culturally and historically disconnected as some people think. Hell, China and Rome were trading partners at some points.
That said, you did pick two of the least similar deities. Amaterasu's female, for one thing. Were I a Christian looking for parallels in Shintoism to Christianity, that wouldn't be where I started, though I'm not sure where I would look, specifically. Susanoo and Izanagi don't seem like good choices. Ninigi, Amaterasu's grandson and the mythic founder of the Imperial Family, perhaps. In the case of Hinduism, though, Krishna would be the one who most parallels Jesus, with Vishnu being more akin to "God the Father" in the analogy. Still far from a perfect analogy, with lots of dissimilarities, of course. But better points of comparison, and more likely to be ones you see being made, especially the Krishna one.
Older myths:
“My god is divine level 500!”
“Well, this new god is divine level 1000!”
Yahweh: “My divine level is over 9000!”
Jesus: “I’m divine times infinity!”
Allah: “I’m divine times infinity plus one”
Christians: “Fake copycat”
Mormons: “here’s some new information about Jesus”
Christians: “fake copy cat”
It's over 9000!!!
"See my fanfiction is true because everything about my character was supported in the prophecy of Mr Grey!"
Me: That's nice, might read it later.
As a regular worshipper of Dionysys/Baccus I take issue with the title. When I participate in a celebration of fermented grain & fruit, I feel the presence of great spirits, & see beautiful angels!
All of this reminded me that growing up Catholic in a Mexican family Our Lady of Guadalupe was everywhere and it wasn't until I deconverted at 24 when I started to accept that maybe she came from an Aztec goddess by the name of Tonantzin, I found the borrowing from other mythologies to be a bit fascinating
My Hispanic brother, like us Africans, military defeat was the basis for our conversion to the white man's imaginary god
Sadly these apologists don't have to convince us atheists of their ridiculous claims, only those folks who are intellectually disabled by their faith. It reminds me of the old joke about the assistant wildlife photographer. It's his first job and he gets sent to the Serengeti to photograph lions along with a much older and more experienced photographer. The lions get restive and the new assistant is surprised to see the old hand reach into his bag and slip into a pair of running shoes. Despite the scary circumstances, the assistant has to say something. "I don't think you're going to outrun a lion!" he scoffs. "Oh I don't have to outrun a lion, I only have to outrun you..." is the response.
Bro you have the same name as my Grandfather. Sadly, he's still an evangelical pastor.
@@TrulyZer0 Looks like we got good biblical names me and you! My great grandfather was Noah Coleman!!!
@@paulcoleman3081 I still live in the bible belt. So, you'd be surprised how often I hear that exact phrase upon first introducing myself. To where at this point I have a rehearsed response of "don't let it fool you"
Or, if I'm feeling less frisky it's "that's because my parents are good, Christian people"
@@TrulyZer0 My lot were Methodists and all really solemn with it. Grim-faced black holes for fun. My dad rejected it all and only went to church for weddings and funerals. I consider myself very lucky. I hope you were lucky too.
@@paulcoleman3081 my parents are very loving and kind individuals, they also weren't very controlling of thoughts or behavior. (Comparatively, at least) they are still fundies, still YECs, but I've been able to maintain a healthy relationship with them. Extended family, not so much.. but that doesn't really matter to me.
So yes, I consider myself lucky as well.
I really wish I had more time to watch the full MVP courses. Unfortunately, I’ve already committed myself to so much professional Continuing Education over the next 18 months (plus my own teaching commitments), I’m just grateful for see smaller videos here and on MythVision.
“Not anti-religious it’s anti-stupidity” that’s all I want from my scholars
Every time I hear some new bit from Wallace, I get a little more embarrassed that I once viewed him as one of the less absurd apologists. It was pretty early in my walk away from faith, I listened to a lot of podcasts at the time, one of them was Wallace's. Within a years or so of starting to listen I was becoming a little confused, because his stuff seemed to be getting worse and worse with time, then I went back over his catalogue, to episodes I remembered enjoying, and found those to also now be absurd.
It's an odd feeling, remembering that something used to make sense to you, but looking back you can't for the life of you remember how.
Wallace is a _worker_ , a carney who works those who so desperately want to hear that some _smart_ guy reifies their beliefs. How can anyone who knows ancient mythology declare that "Jesus" was intended to be the perfect instance of all those ancient myths, and *therefore* must be the *true* god?
Acts 17:29-31 may be a helpful passage to look at. Also the fact that the Bible recognizes other gods (Michael Heiser is one who's done a lot of research there) may be reason enough for some Christian apologists to come to this conclusion. But finally if God is God, why can't He? It doesn't have to contradict facts about human free will.
I too whole-heartedly endorse being 100% on the anti-stupidity crusade!
I'm impressed with JWW.
Such a well-spoken, well-turned out specimen.
I wonder what he does for a living.
Underrated comment.
The word "pagan" honestly seems pretty reductive to me. Christians and Jews get to be called by their title, but followers of any other belief systems are now just "pagans" instead of being called by their proper titles. Now I'm tempted to swap it around and call the rest by their proper titles, but Christians and Jews are now "pagans". See how people like that.
But it’s worse than that as JWW in the section comparing “pagan descriptions” uses characters like Moses to compare to Jesus so he is called Jews pagans (or in essence his own god a pagan god). He can’t obviously find a real ‘pagan’ god or character to compare with
I LOVE this episode!
I once read The Christ Conspiracy by Acharya S, which covered a large majority of the evolution of Jesus's legend.
This channel keeps my love of biblical scholarship aflame!
💖
Mythvision has a lot of biblical scholars on his channel, if you're interested.
look into the council's of chalcedon and council of Ephesus. a good book that explains this well is the historical origins of Christianity by Walter Williams. Someone people might not agree with hes view on the origins of Christian history but hes explanation of the ecumenical councils is very good
@(LogicallyBased) "RUclipsCommentator" Thanks!
Always interested in more information.
Hope you & yours are well!
💖
@@alanhyland5697 I am!
Thanks & Cheers!
💖
I’m a longtime fan of the Jesus Seminar and people like John Dominic Crossan, but McDonald’s work adds enormous insight into how the Gospels were written. I have certainly heard of parallels in mythology with regards to the resurrection, but McDonald is demonstrating that there are several other NT examples that have their artistic origins in Greek and OT poetry. To me this is a great insight that evangelicals need to recon with, but don’t expect this to happen very soon and don’t expect them to take away the same humanist interpretation that McDonald brings to the table. Rather, I believe that Wallace has a head start on how evangelicals will interpret these findings, if that happens at all. And I don’t expect Wallace to change his mind any time soon either. In fact, my guess is that evangelicals will reject Wallace’s interpretation before they ever alter their own understanding of the Bible as the inerrant word of God.
I am of the generation that studied English literature (in high school and in university) when Canadian literary critic Northrop Frye influenced the curriculum. Studying both mythologies and the Bible are important for a well-rounded education, even today. According to Frye, the Bible is a series of "mythical accretions" that builds the essential stories for a community, as part of establishing a social identity, as we would say today. In Frye's The Great Code, he shows how the Bible shaped and influenced writers and poets throughout the centuries. The main argument is that one cannot read later authors effectively without understanding the earlier works (mythology or the Bible).
MacDonald's work is very useful because he is drawing attention to what the actual writing process was for the gospel writers. The recent scholarship of Robyn Faith Walsh is also helping in putting the spotlight on the writing process in the first and second centuries. The writers were Greek-educated and trained in the classics (Homer mostly), and they were well versed in the Septuagint. They used the cultural motifs of their era to illuminate a point they wanted to make -- that Jesus was better. The bigger picture view I think is that Christianity prevailed in the west, not because it was true in some historical sense, but because it was the best fit in an evolutionary sense. Christianity was best positioned to create enduring communities by the power of mythmaking in the writing process, which they exceled at in both form (beautiful writing, steeped in tradition), and in being psychologically rewarding as part of building a strong sense of community identity (that is, once Christianity got over its early failed prediction of an imminent end of the world).
I think there is so much research potential that can finally be reached once we remove the shackles of rigid orthodoxy. We should look harder at the cultural milieu of the first and second centuries, and study how people wrote, and how they responded to writing. Richard C. Miller's Resurrection and Reception in Early Christianity (2014) is another brilliant piece of scholarship that shows how readers in Roman times would have received stories of resurrection.
it's amazing that you don't have to allow or be evil to your spouse to be loved, but the all powerful God has to. he fears no one would worship him if he was actually all good.
This was a fantastic episode 👍🏻
What an excellent interview! Thank you!
Glad i stayed till the end, great closing statement by your guest.
This was a very interesting look at the alignment between the stories. Thank you.
Great guest, thank-you!
Nice explanation of the mise-en-scene of J Wobbly Wallace’s set.
What a charming, avuncular and learnéd gentleman. Thanks for the introduction, Mr Ogia.
what a great guest, prepared slides and everything
Great work. Thanks
Excellent,excellent presentation!! It brings a lot a understanding. Thank you Dr. MacDonald and thank you Paul for bringing him to the channel!
I’ve always thought biblical authors were just drawing from other stories to create their characters and stories, but the idea that they did it to show comparison and how their characters were better puts everything in a new light!
Well, this is clearly yet another attempt to water down the bible message, the kingdom of God is going to take over world affairs and remove wicked people. The bible clearly says: all scripture is inspired by God! So it is or it is not, we have a choice
This was outstanding; the guest was brilliant. Quite a few wow moments. Thank you!
you're on a roll. love these critiques. I listen to them on my walks and always learn something.
Paul i really enjoyed this topic its a nice departure from your regular content.
Great episode! Very interesting information!
I haven't had a chance to watch the video yet, but the "My God is Better Than Yours" in the thumbnail made an old Kennel Rations advertising song jingle in my ears . . . .
Wow that was eye-opening
Love this! Dr. MacDonald is awesome!
Wow.. this one is a heavy hitter. Great job here. I am now more intrigued than I’ve ever been in researching the parallels of Christian writers to Greek Mythology writers. Kind of mind blowing.
Wallace's argument is like saying that if I make a movie that reuses themes from The Terminator, then it's more likely that the director of The Terminator predicted the future and matched his movie to mine than it is that I watched Terminator and incorporated its themes.
This was excellent. Thank you and looking forward to learning more through Dr. Macdonald's course.
My dad said it was the devil that inspired all of the other religions with parallel themes to his own religion.
I wonder who's right?
I wonder if your dad took time to think that what if his religion is devil inspired
@@miguelatkinson Of course not. It's faith, and of course his faith can't be wrong.
That can’t both be right, but they can both be wrong!
Big supporter, good work!
Brilliant, thoughtful, considerate guest
Wow!
Good, good stuff here.
Lotsa new info (to me at least) thanks!
Great video
Great to see Prof MacDonald! Thanks for another excellent video Paul.
this whole competition thing makes so much sense. my whole family is very christian and i remember growing up being told that all those "other fake religions" needed multiple gods to explain everything but "our god can do it all" like, literally still doing this competition thing. it's so ridiculous. christianity is so weird.
and amazing work as always.
Some people never get beyond the “my dad can beat up your dad!” mentality, and that just transfers right over into goofy religious beliefs as an adult without any maturity happening in between
@@loganleatherman7647 what an excellent point! it's important to understand these things in the context of being written by people, and their experiences inform narratives. you'd think god would be way more mature, etc. otherwise as a loving, all knowing, powerful being. it's sad that so many people today believe these tales as actual events instead of for what they are.
It must be a bitch to watch J W Wallace put a puzzle together. 'Okay... this part goes here... here.. yes... this puzzle is obviously about Jesus entering Jerusalem!'
'Uh... it's a kitten on a bed of flowers.'
That, again, was such a good lecture! Thank you very much!
Saw you on "cuz I wanna" yesterday. While I don't spend a lot of time with Matt's content, the contrast between your style and his is always very entertaining and enlightening.
This video was great, by the way.. I have very limited knowledge of ancient mythology, but I love to learn about it.
I always thought that the comparative parallels between Jesus and old testament figures were a way that Christians looked down on Judaism.. which I guess was the point, huh?
Great guest!
Awesome episode.
Thank you for this educational video, Paulogia! Dr. Macdonald is a great voice to add to your channel! I enjoyed this very much!
I enjoyed this so much.
Very insightful video!
This was an excellent deep dive into the mythos. Thanks!
This was really interesting, thank you
Jay's moderator has just blocked my access to other commenters on his channel. I must have touched a nerve with him. It's the best laugh I've had this week.
Isn't it telling that all the most similar religions developed near each other? Near enough that you could get this cross pollination of stories and tropes? Would it not make more sense if there was a universal god that all religions all over the world would share some distinct characters?
Nope, pure coincidence. The creator of the universe just fancied Jerusalem and Palestine region as was his prerogative. Fancied earth above all other billions of specs in the universe. Fancied human species above all other on earth.
Fine tuning not only proves God, but the inverse of fine tuning can be ignored as an argument against "why earth, why humans" can be ignored because it's just silly.
@skippy675
It does strike me as really odd that a supposedly all-powerful, all-knowing, all-loving god would so blatantly play favorites like that. What luck it just happened to be for the Israelites who made up the story, huh?
Religion Itself is a Trojan horse
"Let me tell you about paradise. . . " Proceeds to explain all the expectations on you to attain said paradise
Loved that last line! I'm not anti religious, I'm anti stupidity!👍💖💙🥰✌
Finally someone who's willing to point out the effect he's trying to get with the visual display used.
I have always been aware of it, I was wondering if someone would ever bring it up.
👍😉 I was hoping someone would draw some attention to it for those who don't realise.
Thank you.
Dr. Macdonald's work is fascinating. This is my first introduction and it was a great one. Thanks, man, for a great video.(yet another)
Let’s hope he was a better detective, than he is apologist! Religious apologists will stop at nothing to mislead and deceive, they don’t mind that they are liars, they don’t mind that they are boring, they don’t mind that they are obviously ignorant and wrong - because most of the people they are fooling are either children or needy, naive, gullible people.
They also strongly believe in “ministerial truth”, a.k.a. lying for Jesus
@@loganleatherman7647 I like it, lying for Jesus 😂
Heaven, hell and an afterlife; a vast majority of people naturally assume this is what Jesus himself taught. But that is not true. Neither Jesus, nor the Hebrew Bible which he interpreted, endorsed the view that departed souls go to paradise or everlasting pain. Unlike most Greeks, 1st century Orthodox Apocalyptic Jews did NOT believe the soul could exist at all apart from the body. On the contrary, for them, the soul was more like the “breath.” The first human God created, Adam, began as a lump of clay; then God “breathed” life into him (Genesis 2: 7). Adam remained alive until he stopped breathing. Then it was dust to dust, ashes to ashes. Ancient Jews thought that was true of us all, when we stop breathing, our breath doesn’t go anywhere. It just stops. So too the “soul” it doesn’t continue on outside the body, subject to postmortem pleasure or pain. It doesn’t exist any longer. Jews believed that nobody can worship ‘god’ from the grave and god forgets us!
“Jesus did not think a person’s soul would live on after death, either to experience bliss in the presence of God above or to be tormented in the fires of hell below. As an orthodox Jew of the 1st century, Jesus did not think the soul went anywhere after death. It simply ceased to exist with the body.” Prof. Bart D Ehrman.
(Prof. Ehrman is an American New Testament scholar focusing on textual criticism of the New Testament, the historical Jesus, and the origins and development of early Christianity. He has written and edited 30 books, including three college textbooks.)
This topic was very informative and interesting. I very much enjoyed listening to Dr. MacDonald. thank you very much to both of your.
Nice! Loved the perspective that Dr. MacDonald shows here, makes a tonne of sense.
Also Jesus is the vehicle at 44:19, gave me a laugh, so thanks for that editing!
JWW thinks it isn't a coincidence that Jesus parallels other figures from the OT?
Well, yeah but not for the reason he thinks.
Enjoyed this collab.
😊
I loved the whole video, but i do think it’s funny that “Mark” wanted to show up Nestor feeding 4500 people with Jesus feeding 5000. Five thousand is a nice round number, but it only beats Nestor’s feast by a little over 10%. Dream big, my guy! Have Jesus feed 10,000!
The nice thing about gods, is that you can mold them to whatever narrative you like.
The intransigent historical claims verified by Roman historians is a lot for atheists to dismiss as the do, in totality. The "Jesus Code" of the Old Testament is a miraculous phenomenon that can't be dismissed.
@@Aaronservant0 'Jesus Code'? Oh my, that is a good one. Thanks for the laugh! 🙂
15 alliterative abstractions... and yet Wallace fails to see the inevitable sixteenth one for Jesus, *_Imaginary_* .
Wasn't it Ulysses who said, 'I am all that I have seen'? F Scott Fitzgerald said, 'There are no second acts in American lives'. If humans are collections of experiences and genetic predispositions, we should expect those schemas to manifest in nearly every social order we create.
The three acts of a play; setup, confrontation and resolution are really mirrors of how human brains process information into coherent solutions, but in this case with JWW, perhaps Fitzgerald could be even more precise: 'Act II is generally where the inner turmoil lies. Confronting our demons, selfishness, immortality, murderous thoughts, disastrous choices. Skipping Act II is avoiding the pain of self discovery and self awareness'. Ironically the very thing that Christianity discourages while inserting an ersatz solution in it's place. Little wonder religions are so ubiquitous in a world of humans seeking an easy out.
The guy knows some of those religions predated Christianity, right?
Shhh don’t tell him
I think he was trying to imply that God had some hand in the predecessors, and they were in some way preparing for the "true" faith.
Strange that he thinks his God couldn't do it right the first time.
Yep, that was his thesis. That the precursor religions in a specific set of interrelated regions sharing cultural ties, trade, etc, were all planted to help people be able to conceive of the "Supergod" figure of Jesus Christ who was totally better than all of them.
Too bad an all powerful, all knowing, all benevolent god utterly failed to do that outside of a region that had close cultural ties and traditions threaded through it. I'm sure the Portuguese Missionaries and initial converts in Japan for instance would have liked if Shinto somehow was set up to make people just accept Jesus instead of the bloody revolts and riots that actually happened.
This is a really good video, Paulogia
thank you
I feel personally attacked! Not because of the jebus stuff, but the DVD diss. Some of us have old minivans that require dvds.
Nice to see this subject talked about here. Until now I have only seen it at Myth Vision Podcast.
Wow, I had never deeply considered the Synchresis argument before but it seems so obvious now. It's like how all the new superheroes in western comics and eastern manga always do things to one-up the previous coolest hero--more directly in western comics since everything takes place in the DCverse or the Marvelverse.
Awesome as Always
2:32 Oh god, casually observing the Q Anon freaks via the Q Anon Anonymous podcast has completely ruined the whole letter for me, and any unrelated mentions to it give me a fight/flight response for a second xD
My favorite example is "Romeo and Juliet" and "West Side Story". It is undeniable that the literary "imitation"/borrowings between those to stories are NOT coincidental but deliberate
The same can be said for "The Tempest" and "Forbidden Planet"
Half way through this I suddenly became terrified this material was going to be on the final exam.
Plot twist: this is what St. Peter quizzes you on at the gates
@@Fernando-ek8jp Great, guess my happy ass is going to super hell then.