I was a freelancer not too long ago, the amount of clients trying to get away without paying is really big. Looks like this client just found cheaper employees and is trying to run away with your code
Sadly a very common occurrence in freelance software development. Software is expensive to create. If you can't deal with the cost don't hire someone to create it.
I laughed so hard! "He's a nice guy, he threatened to put me in bankruptcy" !!! WhAt?!? 😂😂 Hopefully his lawyer will show him how nice he's been and teaches him a hard lesson about being nice to self employed folks!
You've been paid in full for your time to work on his project, you did 90% of the work, then you can only refund him 10% for the work that is not done, because you've already spend your time working on his project he can't give you back your time if you refund him. Services are non refundable.
He needs to lawyer up and build a progress report. In future he needs to have a contracted progress report in place. That can then be used in court to show how it is billed.
I think I know what happened. A year ago when the project started, he was for it. Then the virus hit and he wants that money in his savings account just in case.
depends, I'm a freelance web developer and it could be that the client saw the code working but maybe it wasn't really efficient (time, space, cleanliness, ect).... i can't tell since i haven't seen the actual code but something definitely doesn't add up on his side (the caller) of the story
@donald johnson Working in retail for 7 years, I have seen my share of bad entitled customers that will lie, cheat and manipulate just to get a refund, discount or out of paying
Don't think so. If the developer did weekly checkups with the client, its up to the client to run through the code and from the story, he was happy with it.
@@georgemendez6760 Understandable. My gut is telling me this is on the client not the dev. At any time that client can check the progress, seems odd to pull this when the project is near completion.
Client sounds crazy, the guy wants a refund for $30K when the bill was somewhere around $25k?!?🤔 Sounds like a bunch of nonsense from someone who doesn't understand what they're talking about. Unfortunately $30k is too much to try to handle this without legal council, find a lawyer and smoke this guy. 👨🏻⚖️
rather pay 10k in attorney than have collection come for me for 30k that I don't even owe. He can also have a judge rule that the original client pay for the attorney bill should he lose, which he will.
Dave is right, another thing that wasnt reminded here, if you are doing a job that is worth more than 2,000$-3,000$ you might as well protect yourself with a signed contract disclosing everything that was agreed on!! Its crazy to think that a 25,000$ job was done with no contract
I paid off one of my credit card today, even tho there’s still a lot to be done (about 3700$ in an other credit card) I’m glad I came a cross Dave Ramsey 😊
D W why would he have already hired another team then? He probably didn’t like the way he coded it. Which is not worthy of a refund. Lack of communication was the clients fault
Dave stated his success is partly owed to not being a "financial" show but a life based show where he can connect with the audience on a deeper level than just money. Watched his documentary, was a good watch!
And the lesson here boys and girls is get an ironclad, no loopholes possible contract regardless of how well you get along with a client. In fact, the more friendly you are with a client, the more serious the contract.
Here's the story: 1) The client never had the money to pay for the software 2) He waited until the project was 90% done before complaining about the quality of service 3) He's now demanding a refund so that he can outsource the remaining 10% of the project at a fraction of the cost to some firm in India. It's a sad story but one that plays out in the freelance world all the time.
Sign a contract. They pay half up front. They get the code when they’ve paid fully. Lesson for next time. People don’t understand code or website work. They get frustrated and you get the raw end. Protect yourself
Past consideration... he doesn’t have a case. If he wanted protection he could have built protections in the contract. No overage unless written authorization given for the change orders; deadline with agreed to liquidated damages if the deadline was missed; withheld a percentage until satisfactory delivery of final product; etc. Doesn’t sound like he had any of that. Lesson for both of you; clear expectations and milestones within an agreement is the best for both parties and you set your price accordingly to meet those expectations.
If the bills were pay by the hour - then there is nothing to worry about, Client doesn't have much basis here. If it were fixed project - then case can go to court and will decide on scope vs reality. Either way if they have hired another team working on same codebase, then do sue the client for Mental harassment and most likely you will win the case.
I have similar experience as a freelance coder. The guy was friendly but at the end, he wanted me to work extra for free. The project changed from several weeks to several months length and there would be absolutely no extra pay if I accepted it. I cut the contract short, introduced him to someone else and left. I was so freaking upset when he smiled and told me to do it for the experience :(
The more I hear about "collections" the more I wonder how this is even legal - you could basically just hire anyone for anything and send them to collections, right? Is there any protection from abuse? I shady company wouldn't have any problem writing up a false invoice.
There's no way, there needs to be a promissory note, a contract, accounting of debt charges, a clause talking about even being able to put the amt into collections, a reasonable effort made to collect the debt prior to placing it in collections, etc.
I see this all the time. You are dealing with a low intelligent small business owner. They don't understand how this works. Each payment to you was an agreement of acceptance. Imagine building a house and you make payment on construction every month over the duration of one year. The on month 12 you have a 90% complete structure. The house is still livable but its not 100% what you want. Then let's say you ask for 100% of the money back. What do you think will happen? Right, you will get nothing back because each payment was acceptance.
An attorney will hose you down. If you want to hire an attorney , you might as well give him $10k because that is the minimum and attorney will get from u. They have a way of con -vincing you and you will lose sleep.
@@sassysandie2865 , In respond to Dave advising the caller to hire an attorney, to me that is the best route. Have you ever been involved with lawsuit? In this time and age, it does not matter , whether you are right 100%. Everything can be interpreted in a twisted way and you have to pay minimum $5k for very brief.
Judy Mckee and yes, I have been involved with a lawsuit. Long, grueling, expensive. There probably more to this story than what George is telling us. We would need to hear the client’s side. Someone still should be paid for their time and what they have provided. Much like hiring a caterer for a wedding. You eat the food but then complain after the reception that you didn’t like the food and want your money back. You still have to pay for the food and service.
@@sassysandie2865 , Yes I agree with you on the caterer story. I once paid for some computer programming services that this programmer was going to build for me, I paid x amount of money and about a month later, he asked me for some more money, I asked to see what he has done. Sometimes, you just cut your losses , when things are not verifiable.
Problem is getting an attorney or pay the client and you will at best be equal in your loss based on attorney costs and frankly, attorney costs will most likely cost you more than the $30k... especially if he has internal counsel versus you paying hourly attorney costs... Dave is speaking from another level than a business owner that is concerned about a $30k potential lawsuit.
I feel like there is much more to the story that the caller did not reveal. I would be interested to know the client's perspective on this one-sided call.
Same type of person who goes to a restaurant and one dish out of a huge order wasn't the best and the customer wants the whole bill comped plus a gift card. It's called milking the system.
Was there a contract involved? I knew a guy who didn't have a contract, handed over some code to the people and ended up paying someone else to finish the code for much cheaper. The guy couldn't do anything because he didn't have a contract.
He needs a lawyer but funds have already been paid so he could argue that the funds were for said work and work has been received. The employer may have an issue trying to prove that it was not done.
Client should have got an analyst to clearly document the requirements first. He handed this guy a project with limited info and he ran with it and now the client is upset because it doesn't meet expectations which were not set at the start - it is the client's fault
This is like return stuff at a WalMart and get 120% back. The worse pet is not even as the refund but trying to get 20% interest. I wish Dave would bring him back in a few months so we hear what happen and why the guy want the refund.
Client probably doesn't have much experience managing software projects. It's very rare that entire projects are estimated correctly because new challenges come up the further you get in. Plus it's exceptionally rare for a stakeholder to not request changes as they see the product coming together. i.e. "We agreed to do this, but after seeing how it works, I think we should do it this way instead." The big question mark is what is 90% done. A product can have 90% of the features but the remaining 10% takes 90% of the time. So there's a chance that the developer hasn't delivered on the most time-intensive part of the product.
Never seen code 90%that worth any thing. Collection agency don't take cases. With out lot info especially average person. There a iff contract some where.
having a home or small business you run into these types of people. it happends in every industry, its on purpose he plays the nice guy til the end make up fake reasons to end relationship and get the work for free or for 10percent the cost. he was never nice he's a con man
Classic 'customer knows the laws'... The "contractor" does not have the proper license, and/or insurance and/or workers comp, and/or permits.... life is tough in residential construction now.! thanks Obama.!
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I was a freelancer not too long ago, the amount of clients trying to get away without paying is really big. Looks like this client just found cheaper employees and is trying to run away with your code
This.
The truth is we do not have enough details.
Or thinks he can pay a small amount to finish the work and get a full refund from the original programmer?
Sadly a very common occurrence in freelance software development. Software is expensive to create. If you can't deal with the cost don't hire someone to create it.
"He's nice, he wrote back and said you'll have to declare bankruptcy to get out of it". What??? 🤦🏻♀️
I laughed so hard! "He's a nice guy, he threatened to put me in bankruptcy" !!! WhAt?!? 😂😂 Hopefully his lawyer will show him how nice he's been and teaches him a hard lesson about being nice to self employed folks!
Erika Kullberg: Finance, Investing, Passive Income precisely! This guy is just way too nice!
The caller has issues.
You've been paid in full for your time to work on his project, you did 90% of the work, then you can only refund him 10% for the work that is not done, because you've already spend your time working on his project he can't give you back your time if you refund him. Services are non refundable.
He needs to lawyer up and build a progress report. In future he needs to have a contracted progress report in place. That can then be used in court to show how it is billed.
What the contract says goes...
He got 90% of the project but doesn't want to pay, LOL
Carlos Garcia after he backed out lol
I think I know what happened. A year ago when the project started, he was for it. Then the virus hit and he wants that money in his savings account just in case.
There is a whole lot more to this story, that is clear. Either way this needs to be settled in court.
depends, I'm a freelance web developer and it could be that the client saw the code working but maybe it wasn't really efficient (time, space, cleanliness, ect).... i can't tell since i haven't seen the actual code but something definitely doesn't add up on his side (the caller) of the story
@donald johnson Working in retail for 7 years, I have seen my share of bad entitled customers that will lie, cheat and manipulate just to get a refund, discount or out of paying
Don't think so. If the developer did weekly checkups with the client, its up to the client to run through the code and from the story, he was happy with it.
@@lwrcica5 not true, we only know one side of the story not the other
@@georgemendez6760 Understandable. My gut is telling me this is on the client not the dev. At any time that client can check the progress, seems odd to pull this when the project is near completion.
Client sounds crazy, the guy wants a refund for $30K when the bill was somewhere around $25k?!?🤔 Sounds like a bunch of nonsense from someone who doesn't understand what they're talking about. Unfortunately $30k is too much to try to handle this without legal council, find a lawyer and smoke this guy. 👨🏻⚖️
Right hire a lawyer then the only people that make money are the lawyers
.... but he's a nice guy.
Keyword "sounds"
That client sounds so unfair. We would not refund him, as Dave said get a lawyer!
lawyers are expensive... but 30k is 30k
@@seafoam6119 Yeah, $30k is too much to just take the hit and walk away
rather pay 10k in attorney than have collection come for me for 30k that I don't even owe. He can also have a judge rule that the original client pay for the attorney bill should he lose, which he will.
Always have a contract to back you up...people are crazy
You did ur job why would u refund him 30k. ur only problem is u have too good of a heart
Dave is right, another thing that wasnt reminded here, if you are doing a job that is worth more than 2,000$-3,000$ you might as well protect yourself with a signed contract disclosing everything that was agreed on!!
Its crazy to think that a 25,000$ job was done with no contract
I paid off one of my credit card today, even tho there’s still a lot to be done (about 3700$ in an other credit card) I’m glad I came a cross Dave Ramsey 😊
“He’s a nice guy. He wrote back to me, he said I have to declare bankruptcy to get out of it!” Lol what? 😂
Probably whatever business this software was written for is now struggling due to covid19.
D W why would he have already hired another team then? He probably didn’t like the way he coded it. Which is not worthy of a refund. Lack of communication was the clients fault
@@solo127 I mean he could be lying about hiring another team
This is not a question for Dave
Andrew Suderman people call and ask Dave why the sky is blue. People should be calling him only about financial decisions/problems.
Agreed...so what is worse, the call or fact they published it :o
Gonna call Dave and ask him what his favourite pizza topping is
Dave stated his success is partly owed to not being a "financial" show but a life based show where he can connect with the audience on a deeper level than just money. Watched his documentary, was a good watch!
And the lesson here boys and girls is get an ironclad, no loopholes possible contract regardless of how well you get along with a client. In fact, the more friendly you are with a client, the more serious the contract.
Here's the story:
1) The client never had the money to pay for the software
2) He waited until the project was 90% done before complaining about the quality of service
3) He's now demanding a refund so that he can outsource the remaining 10% of the project at a fraction of the cost to some firm in India.
It's a sad story but one that plays out in the freelance world all the time.
Developers are notorious for not having deliverables on time. Why would you hand everything over only 90% done? This sounds like BS.
Sign a contract. They pay half up front. They get the code when they’ve paid fully. Lesson for next time. People don’t understand code or website work. They get frustrated and you get the raw end. Protect yourself
Past consideration... he doesn’t have a case.
If he wanted protection he could have built protections in the contract. No overage unless written authorization given for the change orders; deadline with agreed to liquidated damages if the deadline was missed; withheld a percentage until satisfactory delivery of final product; etc.
Doesn’t sound like he had any of that. Lesson for both of you; clear expectations and milestones within an agreement is the best for both parties and you set your price accordingly to meet those expectations.
The caller or the client
Julian Cain The client doesn’t have a case based on what the caller was saying.
“George didn’t like us,” woke me right up.😂😂
The one down vote is probably the guy trying to get a refund. 🤣
If the bills were pay by the hour - then there is nothing to worry about, Client doesn't have much basis here. If it were fixed project - then case can go to court and will decide on scope vs reality. Either way if they have hired another team working on same codebase, then do sue the client for Mental harassment and most likely you will win the case.
was there anything in writing on this deal? always get it in writing.
I have similar experience as a freelance coder. The guy was friendly but at the end, he wanted me to work extra for free. The project changed from several weeks to several months length and there would be absolutely no extra pay if I accepted it. I cut the contract short, introduced him to someone else and left. I was so freaking upset when he smiled and told me to do it for the experience :(
Wow
This crisis will show the best and the worst from people.
It's his side and the other guy said. Somewhere between those two sides is the truth.
The more I hear about "collections" the more I wonder how this is even legal - you could basically just hire anyone for anything and send them to collections, right? Is there any protection from abuse? I shady company wouldn't have any problem writing up a false invoice.
Nah if it was that easy then it would be happening to everyone. They have to be able to validate the debt if they want to collect from you.
scorpiomaj27, yeah I question whether this guy is actually in collections. My guess is the buyer is just lying about it being in collections.
There's no way, there needs to be a promissory note, a contract, accounting of debt charges, a clause talking about even being able to put the amt into collections, a reasonable effort made to collect the debt prior to placing it in collections, etc.
The client is just using that as a scare tactic.
I see this all the time. You are dealing with a low intelligent small business owner. They don't understand how this works. Each payment to you was an agreement of acceptance.
Imagine building a house and you make payment on construction every month over the duration of one year. The on month 12 you have a 90% complete structure. The house is still livable but its not 100% what you want. Then let's say you ask for 100% of the money back. What do you think will happen? Right, you will get nothing back because each payment was acceptance.
An attorney will hose you down. If you want to hire an attorney , you might as well give him $10k because that is the minimum and attorney will get from u. They have a way of con -vincing you and you will lose sleep.
Judy Mckee and an attorney will want you to settle usually by dividing in half.
@@sassysandie2865 , In respond to Dave advising the caller to hire an attorney, to me that is the best route. Have you ever been involved with lawsuit? In this time and age, it does not matter , whether you are right 100%. Everything can be interpreted in a twisted way and you have to pay minimum $5k for very brief.
Judy Mckee and yes, I have been involved with a lawsuit. Long, grueling, expensive. There probably more to this story than what George is telling us. We would need to hear the client’s side. Someone still should be paid for their time and what they have provided. Much like hiring a caterer for a wedding. You eat the food but then complain after the reception that you didn’t like the food and want your money back. You still have to pay for the food and service.
@@sassysandie2865 , Yes I agree with you on the caterer story. I once paid for some computer programming services that this programmer was going to build for me, I paid x amount of money and about a month later, he asked me for some more money, I asked to see what he has done. Sometimes, you just cut your losses , when things are not verifiable.
Problem is getting an attorney or pay the client and you will at best be equal in your loss based on attorney costs and frankly, attorney costs will most likely cost you more than the $30k... especially if he has internal counsel versus you paying hourly attorney costs... Dave is speaking from another level than a business owner that is concerned about a $30k potential lawsuit.
Unless there's more to the story it sounds like the guy wants the work for free or found out he could have got it done a lot cheaper.
I feel like there is much more to the story that the caller did not reveal. I would be interested to know the client's perspective on this one-sided call.
"He's nice... He told me to declare bankruptcy to get out of it"
I think that makes him the opposite of nice
Same type of person who goes to a restaurant and one dish out of a huge order wasn't the best and the customer wants the whole bill comped plus a gift card. It's called milking the system.
Was there a contract involved? I knew a guy who didn't have a contract, handed over some code to the people and ended up paying someone else to finish the code for much cheaper. The guy couldn't do anything because he didn't have a contract.
He needs a lawyer but funds have already been paid so he could argue that the funds were for said work and work has been received. The employer may have an issue trying to prove that it was not done.
Client should have got an analyst to clearly document the requirements first. He handed this guy a project with limited info and he ran with it and now the client is upset because it doesn't meet expectations which were not set at the start - it is the client's fault
Dave, I discovered a saving strategy you never share, and that is that you save lots on Shampoo or hair products! :)
Maybe he spends more on lotion and Sun protection 😂
That client is outright batty. Chris wanted to go ham on him lol
Did you get user sign off on the design and coding? What does contract say?
Client trying to pay less. He gets refund and the client hire new for 10 percent to complete the job.
This is like return stuff at a WalMart and get 120% back. The worse pet is not even as the refund but trying to get 20% interest. I wish Dave would bring him back in a few months so we hear what happen and why the guy want the refund.
For some reason i thought her was talking about a tax refund 😅
Client sounds nutty. Time for an Attorney.
Start a business. Trust me people like this are all over the world. Gesh how much money have I refunded!
Client probably doesn't have much experience managing software projects. It's very rare that entire projects are estimated correctly because new challenges come up the further you get in. Plus it's exceptionally rare for a stakeholder to not request changes as they see the product coming together. i.e. "We agreed to do this, but after seeing how it works, I think we should do it this way instead."
The big question mark is what is 90% done. A product can have 90% of the features but the remaining 10% takes 90% of the time. So there's a chance that the developer hasn't delivered on the most time-intensive part of the product.
Can you really send refund debt to collections?
Sounds like theft to me. Videography client tried to do this to me with video in hand. Will be more careful legally next time.
threaten to sue him for pain and suffering.
So he didn't do the job all the way
Its like building 90% of a house then just going nah don't want it. give me my money
This is why you have an arbitration clause.
What is your household income
Sell the car.
Rice and beans, beans and rice sometimes.
The only time you should step foot in a restaurant is if you’re working there.
Degree in left hand puppetry.
Sounds like your former client ruin your business. Handle it legally and let it go!
Something is right.....very very suspicious “I don’t know what’s wrong” blah blah
Judge Judy
Maybe, the client have a 30k gap on the company bank account, and he needs to get the money asap.
And who will be the looser with 30k? The IT guy
Never seen code 90%that worth any thing. Collection agency don't take cases. With out lot info especially average person. There a iff contract some where.
Something smells fishy...
How hard is it to program? No need to pay that much money.
Is so simple treat money like is your only resource to survive you will always have money
Some people use niceness to mask being underhanded
having a home or small business you run into these types of people. it happends in every industry, its on purpose he plays the nice guy til the end make up fake reasons to end relationship and get the work for free or for 10percent the cost.
he was never nice he's a con man
Music at the start kills my ears w headphones on. 😝
This the funniest one, but some people are crazy out there.
LOL coronabrain
George is in Georgia! Hahahahaha!
Louis is in Louisiana.
It doesn't get better then Maryland, from Maryland!
Ken is in Kentucky.
Good one Dave! I love it, corona brain😃
Sounds like he wants your work for free
when Dave starts rearranging his papers on his desk...he's getting bored.
The only nice guy here is the caller 🙉
Think Money ummm someone’s trying to steal 30k from the guy you have to take legal action with that ......
just settle with the client.
George.... George,
Scam. Trying to get something for nothing
Wow, that's a lot of refund. Good luck!
Is there a way for Dave to answer a question without having to call him?
George from Georgia 🤣
countersuit! countersuit!
Been watching succession and man dave reminds me of Logan the old rich guy
George in Georgia
Carona brain, nice one.
Classic 'customer knows the laws'...
The "contractor" does not have the proper license, and/or insurance and/or workers comp, and/or permits....
life is tough in residential construction now.!
thanks Obama.!
Doesn’t look like 6 ft apart!
Omfg he might have a Corona brain hahahahahaha
The code has coronavirus
Commenting for the RUclips algorithm
Shocked at the "Corona brain" comment. Dave is getting too political.
Debora Marcotte it was funny....lighten up
Place got hit by lightning
Expletive pay me
You had a fire 🔥
Expletive pay me
Mom got the corona virus 🦠
Expletive pay me
The description says $25k but the title says $30k 😳 Are we getting the full story I wonder sometimes
Boristien405 The original price is $30k that was paid but collections is asking for $25k
"He may have corona brain"
We get it; you don't think that the virus is serious. Stick to topics that you know about.
I was having a nice time listening to this story but then the black guy started talking and I got pregnant. I am a man.
Sounds like a democrat
First
Corona brain?? Really Dave? Wow that’s incredibly insensitive to say during this time! Not amused 😒
Kristen Miner I thought it was funny asf guess you don’t have a sense of humor
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