I just love all the "experts" weighing in and criticizing this mans work, especially the one clown who claimed his boss wants everything diagnosed within 15 minutes or you arent doing it right. Whatever. Weve all made mistakes and have missed obvious things, no two calls are really ever the same because you dont know the history of the units and how many hacks have been there before you. Vid watchers need to relax and appreciate the work that goes into making a video for us to enjoy.
I would get fired on many jobs if I only have 15 minutes to diagnose. Took me 1-3/4 today to trace out a short on a 12-ton air handler and sterling gas heater. The transformer in the condenser was tripped. A friggen tiny piece of metal shard behind wire terminal block to the air handler metal casing. I had it traced to the g wire until I spotted that.
@@thehvachacker : Nice find! I just think its a problem of too many voices- I dont care if its here or some comment section in a news article, theres a contingent of people out there who are always going to have a better way no matter what. Theres no talking sense to them so I applaud all of you guys who take the time to post your work, despite that crowd. Keep it up brother, I just subscribed!
Rick Aleman aren’t you a “business owner”? I saw you on another comment on this video. Don’t you have better things to do than talk shit on RUclips? Friggin trolls man.
Respect ✊ Bro Every season professional technician like myself servicing a lot of commercial /industrial roof top Hvac units and Refrigeration rack and single units in the brutal north east year round 24/7 sometimes can tell right away your a pros pro , people should be really great full of good tech but it takes one to know one , keep doing what we do I enjoy the process also great 👍 videos
On those old york/luxaire units I always pull the burner first , to clean the tubes and look for spider webs in the pilot orifice, and always change the flame sensor. On some models there is a high limit directly opposite side of the burner panel.
I live in New Hampshire, and these York units are very common up here. I've found that when the heat is off for the summer, spiders will find a home inside that pilot crossover tube and screw everything up. What I typically do is pull the whole burner assembly out and take the pilot tube apart and blow it out. Check the pilot orfice, make sure it's not clogged. Clean the flame sensor while the burners are out. Pulling the burner assembly is quick and simple. Just a union and a couple screws. Put it back together and watch it fire off. May need to adjust the pilot pressure a tad. And 95% of the time the heat fires off for me after doing this. And always hit the roof with a drill. Pulling panels off with a nutdirver is crazy talk.
Did many repairs on those model york gas paks. A few heat exchanger replacements. The notorious rotted out or clogged pilot tubing and crappy inducer motor that the centrifugal switch goes bad on back of motors. ...... Good video HVAC HACKER
I hate this model Yorks those pilot tubings always clogged or rotted. The fire retardant wall melted from the flame rollout. Wind screws up pilot burning on pilot tubing causing flame failures. The exhaust hoods at least is not screwed into the frame of the unit like other yorks
Fun fact.. Strip the HELL out of the philips screw and then use a Robertson in the place left behind.. it works perfect. also if the screw turns for ever then use a wood chisels. put the tip under the screw like a wedge, turn the screw and then when it pulls out a bit use the tip of the chisel as the ramp for the screw to retract on... Problem solving, its what i do :) I hate roof top units, they always fail when its cold or raining... never on a nice day. Flame sensor is recieving voltage, it is short cycling either the Sensor itself but most likely the Si84 Ignition module. I like to point out for everybody thats being a dick that this guy could have been awake for 48 + hours on no heat calls, I will admit I would have handled this differently but I cannot judge without being the person there. Any body who works in the field knows that sometimes you are only still awake due to copious amounts of coffee.. :)
I have done a few package units and some condensing units. One common thread is I find a lot of screws missing. I will replace missing or worn out screws. It makes the customers happy to show you care about your work.
I usually have to make new holes since many strip them out or the hole does rust and become bigger over time. A lot of screws are always missing. It depends on the day for me but usually I feel the screws need to be there
Hacker when I use to service Autozone stores they had some York unit and most were flame sensors and the electrical compartment would catch on fire. Some had open roll out switches too. Good video and a teaching method of why it failed.
This one hasn't had a flame roll yet. Many York RTU this style the fire retardant wall the electric ignition is mounted to is usually melted and burnt from previous thermal events. The worst part with these RTU's is the flame sensor or ignitor fails and the Philips screw usually have been rounded out
Those York/Luxaire RTU's are a pain in the ass. My first few years in this I was always going crazy trying to figure out why the burners wouldnt light, or why only half of them would light. little did i know that the stupid pilot tube would usually be the culprit. Either the ferrul on the tube would rot away or the tube would be clogged some how.
The pilot tube does cause lots of problems with these yet this one was good. I replaced it anyway since I ordered the flame sense and pilot tube. It seems it is either raining or I am laying in the snow working on this style york. Pulling out the burner section. They just couldn't use burners with the built-in gas runway
Yeah, i never understood why it was setup like that. The two bolts in the back holding that thing together are a pain in the ass, Ive snapped them on two occasions in the freezing cold....anyway keep up the good work, always look forward to your videos! @@thehvachacker
Flame sensor rods rectify AC into DC current in the flame. The current in in the uA range, not mA range. Use the correct meter. We are not looking for 2,000 uA or 2mA on that meter. The unstable display would have me very first check the pilot flame on the sensor. The sensor must be in the flame to work. Just near the flame will cause an erratic reading when the pilot is blown in the breeze when the unit is open. For it to work it has to have the AC voltage present which is relatively high voltage. Ensure the voltage is present and stable. I know it is cold and miserable to get down and view the flame and sensor. Use a cell phone camera or inspection mirror to view the flame and sensor relationship.
How are you testing flame current if not for UA? You do know you are looking for microamps? 2-5 UA is what the ignition board is looking for. What are you setting your meter to when testing flame current? I have seen the flame on the pilot rail across and on the flame sensor. These flame sensors fail all the time where they rest on the burner assembly. The sensor is almost touching the pilot rail which goes across under the burners. Usually, spiders close up the tubing. This video didn't get an ending cause I forgot to turn the camera back on. Yet after I put PVC glue over the crack on the flame sensor I had microamps on my meter and the burner remained on. The heat and vibration of the unit will destroy the thin layer of insulation the PVC glue is making and cause the flame signal to bleed back into ground why I had erratic readings on my meter.
@@thehvachacker I noticed you used a mA scale on one meter. If it is 400 mA full scale at 4000 count full scale, the range of the meter scale is from 0.1 mA to 400 mA. This meter is not appropriate to read 2 uA or 0.002 mA. Know the range of your test equipment. mA and uA are not the same.
For those Phillips screws holding in the flame sensor and ignitor in try tapping the end of your screw driver first before trying to loosen them, the shock usually frees them up, works for me.
The whole pilot/flame proving set up on those Yorks suck. I take care of a ton of them. The pilot rail is a constant issue (spider webs and rust) and the flame sensors are always rusted. You got lucky. I always seem to have to pull the burner assembly. But, it's not too bad to pull it on those. Nice video. Much appreciated.
If it's shutting down on flame sense the 24 volts to the module will not change. If the limits open they will break the 24 v input.Check first to establish cause. After cleaning sensor remove and clean pilot line, of rust spiders etc without proper flame how can it sense properly. You need to start establishing cause and effect and stop hunting in circles. Treat the units problem as a wiring diagnosis. Start somewhere and go threw the chain of cause and effect and find the problem. Jumping around just slows you down and scrambles your thought processes. 40 yrs in the trade and training lots of newbees, has proved that a plan of attack and following the cause and effect chain is always faster and less stressfull. Good Luck
I knew it was flame sense from the beginning yet wanted to condemn the heat exchanger. Too bad it looked good, then I was working on the flame sensor. I returned and replaced the sensor and pilot tubing. Even though the tubing I removed wasn’t restricted. Many times I just clean that tubing and fires up.
Pull the burner rack clean entire burner assembly and support bracket u don't have enough ground area gets worst when cabinet heats up look for 2to 4 microamps by the way good job u test don't guess
I replaced the flame sensor and the problem went away. I also changed the pilot ribbon since it usually causes a headache after several years in operation.
Just passing along a few words of wisdom. 25 yrs and ended up in another type work. Now all that info from over the years is going to waste. :/ When thinking of the flame sensor, also think of the entire flame sense circuit. (not in order of failure or checks... I"ll just go in order of circuit from the board) Board voltage out to the flame sense wire varies but a generic number is 88 volts AC measured from the flame sensor wire to ground. Don't let the DC current reading fool you. It is an AC voltage and yup, it is HIGHER than 24 volts even though board is fed by 24 volt transformer. At least, most of the time. There's a few cases that don't abide by that generic voltage. Smart valves come to mind. In a horribly simplified view, the current can pass through the flame, but can't suck back the other way.(rectification) thus you have to measure in DC current. If there's no voltage, there won't be any current to check no matter how good the rest of the circuit is. Just keep in mind no voltage = bad board. Wire from board to sensor. Wire laying in bottom of cabinet with cracked insulation w/moisture don't help. And the wire connector to the sensor being rusted don't help either. Flame sensor cleaning is the most common issue of course. Next is the rest of the circuit. Need a good ground path back to the board. Is the burner rusted in area of flame sensor? IS the entire ground path good to go. I've had units use the cabinets for the ground path and when the cabinets start rusting you lose a good solid ground path and have had to add grounds from the burner to back to the board in order to get a good ground. I've also had boards replaced by other techs that have over tightened the screw that bonds the board to the cabinet be all stripped out. Sorry so long, got carried away. Might I also suggest a dewalt DW920K-2. It fits nice in a toolbag. Good for when you just got a few screws to contend with. Be safe out there!
flame sense on board to ground or unplug the wire from the flame sensor and measure from the wire directly to ground. There's only two reasons I would ever reference to ground, and this is one of em. THe other is just as a safety check. L1 to ground, L2 to ground, L3 to ground before I touch anything especially in a 480 volt system. I got lit up once when one of the legs was still connected in a three phase disconnect. SUre, turned the thing off and the unit shut off, but it lit me up when I cut the ground from the condenser fan motor I had held up in the air. Hots where still connected. Motor shorted to ground. VOltage said "Fine, you take away my perfectly good path to ground from this shorted out motor and I'll pass through you instead." And I answered with a respectable BZZZZZZZTT!!!! Ooops... off track..... The 88 volts is really really generic. The actual voltage is all over the place depending on manufacturer. And the voltage can change if you have a flame going too. But if the flame is going, sometimes the board will drop the burner out thinking something shorted the sensor. The number 88 stuck in my head since the first time I heard about it from some guy from honeywell. Keep in mind, you're not looking for a magic voltage number, you're looking to see if you have something or nothing. Grant it, if you've had one thats randomly shutting down and you know that the last several of these units measured a respectable 104 volts and this one unit only has 55 volts instead..... I think I'd question something wrong with the board. Maint this is.... IF you have no volts, how the heck is that board/ignition control module going to have current? I'm sure a bunch of guys have run across the little blue boxes on york from johnson controls. Those only run at like 14 volts or so. Thus the reason the current reading is so low and makes you scratch your head wondering "how the heck do I have a steady flame and my micro amp reading is next to nothing?"
heres a good read with a bit more info about it. www.meiersupply.com/contentonly.aspx?file=customerpages/Techtips/TechSpeaking%202010%20Issue6%20Flame%20Rectification.pdf
I have a same york but with a G775 control module, no spark. I think I need all the parts ready to change. What's the part number of this flame seneor?
I never worked in the snow like that, I live in CA. York units like that, I have found little spiders in the pilot mixing tube. They like the gas smell, they make a web inside just pass the air fuel mixing port. I use a bicycle break cable to run inside the tube and clear it. I saw the little shit come out of there, it's a clear looking spider.
These York RTU’s can be a PITA sometime. I forgot to continue filming with this one. PVC glue seemed to help. I will find out this week when I go back with new flame sensor and pilot ribbon. So I will unfortunately I have to pull the burners on my return visit
could it be that water was running down the flame sensor wire considering the resting location of the wire and that is the reason why the outside cover was sealed in such a manner ? this does explain the rust on the ceramic of the sensor.
It could be, usually, the door doesn't close good there so it may even wick water onto the ignition module. Looking where the flame sensor is mounted I see the white water stains. you could be onto something. Did you have water issues with this style york rtu?
I like to see them polished I also wanted to clean up to verify if porcelain was cracked. Does your dad ever get to fire those guns since he takes great care of them?
The HVAC Hacker he developed Parkinson's so shooting guns isnt excactly the best idea so he just likes cleaning them...not that they get very dirty, or dirty at all, i guess thats the military in him...lol
Man, when I come across a unit that looks like it hasn't been touched in years(at the burners) like this one, the first thing I do is clean the flame sensor AND the burners. Then I let god sort it out afterwards lol
Any outdoor unit is subject to wind distortion of the flame when the panel is off. You should replace the panel when checking operation. Could easily disrupt flame rectification. Exterior units especially prone to bad grounds. I agree with suggestion consider secondary ground wire and really scrub the ground surface on the chassis. Agree you can use a megger to test flame rod insulation.
I came here for the specific information but after watching you turning nuts and bolts for over seven minutes I stopped and left. Very interesting. Thank you for the valuable information provided...
Did you find the info you are looking for in the first seven minutes? These are not really how to videos. I make videos of just a few of the many service calls I see on daily basis. To help others see what an HVAC tech faces and does. Many also learn what to or not do.
Also remember that "flame" is a very poor conductor of electricity. The flame rod is normally fed 120V AC. As the 120V is "conducted" through the flame the electric current is changed from 120V AC to 12V DC. And since the flame conduction is known as a half way rectifier, the circuit board is looking for a milivolt DC pulse. If the curcuit boar cant read that through it's ground then flame cuts out at about 3 sec - Hope this helps you. Hard lessons
Always hard lessons and every lesson is good. I learn on every call. I never claim to be the greatest tech I am just a tech having fun working on HVAC systems
Look up Project Farm’s videos on penetrating lubricants. He tests the major brands and checks common things like ATF and acetone. You’d probably like all of his videos.
Man it was cause of u I bought the gloves and a bag to take all my tools with me so much easier no more up and down for fuses or tape or zip ties or some jack ass put 1/4 and 5/16 or a few Phillips heads in it and got to run back to van everything in 1 trip to diagnose the go get part and done
A real tech can take a multimeter, drill, and 6 and 1 and diagnose a unit. you dont need the bag until you find the problem. This man will teach you nothing go watch Anti DIY HVAC hes a real technician.
I work on those units all the time. 1. Water ingress happens near the control panel door and indoor blower door. It sucks the water in at the bottom of the doors. 2. The roll out switch can cause issues like what you had in the unit. 3. I always replace those shitty Philips screws for Robbie's. 4. As stated spiders love those pilot tubes. I push a wire down it or dump a co2 drain plug clearing tool into it.
Remove circuit board - sand casing - Reinstall in adjusted position with new screws. The voltage sent to the flame rod sends the electrical signal through the body of the furnace "conducted through the flames. Only remount circuit board maybe a 1/4" to one side or the other. You just want a good ground. intermittent problems is a result of the metal heating up and cooling off a couple thousand times. Flame rod cleaning is good but not the problem. When you go back because it doesn't light is because the temperature has changed, the metal in the furnace has moved ever so slightly. I remember that they would light if they were cold, then kick out when warm. Or the other way around. Remember that the flame rod is fed electricity. It is then conducted to the "frame" of the furnace as a "ground" through the actual flame (to prove ignition) and the circuit board reads that signal through its ground as proof of ignition. When the circuit board reads that it continues to keep the gas valve open.
The bar seemed good yet I ordered a new flame sensor and pilot ribbon for this unit. the ignition module was just replaced in april according to the records.
What you do isn’t my line of work. So I enjoy watching you work and “solving a mystery” in a way. Any chance you might do a video explaining how your equipment works?
Everytime I watch 1 of your videos Im like - Been there done that. I bet Ive trouble shot and repaired 500 of those York gas packs. Same issues EVERY TIME.
This was a popular RTU. I wish it was easier to pull out the pilot tubing to clean. Since you done so many have you found a way to do that without pulling the burner assembly out?
For the most part - Very few have been pilot tubing. Just like other techs have commented - replace everything. The ignition boxes have given me a ton of issues. Sometimes they work perfect for 30 cycles and sometimes really weak on 1 or 2 fire attempts. And of course the NOTORIOUS DRAFT motor failures and tricky cracked porcelain on the flame sensors. Its got me a few times in the early days. You did a great job bro. Good as anybody else. Just replace all those sensors and they are cheap enuff. Soon as u climbed that ladder and reached the top and I seen that damn York - I said I know exactly where this is going lol. Im working out of Maryland btw. Good luck 👍👍
The roofers decided that a gas pack on the roof was the cause of their roof leak. After they tarred every panel seam and that didn't cure it, they covered it completely with a sheet metal box.......that's when I got the call. Totally starved for air, the folks in the restaurant were huffing some serious fumes.I shut it down and told them to get their roofers and uncover the damn thing........they later found their leak at a chimney. I had to dig through all that tar to access the furnace 6 months later to replace the exhaust blower.......
Those units have a pilot cross over tube Spider webs 🕸 clogged up York direct spark ⚡️ Pain in butt to clean but I’ll bet that’s what wrong as the crossover tube are notoriously problematic when it does crud up
@@thehvachacker I like how they heat up and tend to warp or bend then crack, I am just a home owner and know the issues so well I do all the work on that,
Don't you find a lot of times its oxidation on the actual flame sensor connector spade clip instead of the sensor itself? Those zip tube pilots are troublesome with low pilot gas pressure too. The flame could be too small too small to rectify the ground signal and the result is almost immediate flame failure. Also oxidation down the interior of the zip tube can restrict proper pilot gas flow and create a similar issue. Honeywell makes a wonderful analog micro-amp meter to read flame signals extremely accurately. It won't jump around like the digital does and you can see easily the strength (or weakness) in the signal quickly. That unit also should have a time delay relay in the control compartment that starts the fan in the heat mode. If that fails or is in the process of failing, this unit will go out on high limit intermittently. To check for a failing tdr, flip the stat to the 'on' position and see if it goes out on limit again... If not, I'd think of changing the tdr. I think I heard you say the fan was on and running so this is probably a moot point. Sorry for the ramble but you are doing good man.
Hacker, watching this video makes me wanna not service HVAC anymore! You can keep the snow and ice, I’m outta NJ! After 35 years of this, I’m going South.
I've never wired a honeywell module on that York before ,off my head I believe the rectification signals are different,I mean the rectification signal for the the robershaw to work compared to the honeywell,always a Robert shaw or something that crosses over,that's called a crossover tuber pilot.
And seriously it's always that crossover tube,and the ignitor is I believe the same dam setup as sense it ignites off a small spark off the crossover need a dam mirror to see spark ,crossover tubes suck to replace,it always that.seriously
I started at Lincoln Technical Institute back in 1998. You will only learn the basics but without it’s hard to get a service job. You can get an installation job without trade school. When I got out of trade school I thought I knew it all only to find I was clueless. 20 years in the field later still am learning on many jobs.
Before spending money for training I would suggest you take an aptitude test. There are certain traits that are needed to do this work. Troubleshooting, good with your hands etc. If this is a good fit for you you will be set.
Also depending on where you live being able to withstand working in very hot places such as an attic on a 100 degree day which could be around 140 or outside on a very cold day. While dealing with the climate you still always need to be correct in diagnosing or customers won’t pay. Not like a doctor who can be wrong most the time and still make us pay
It depends, Check your local community college. I'm thinking about taking courses. But if you're able to find someone that can take you under their wing and train you as an apprentice. Be even better.
What about incoming & out going gas pressure? I'd check that & clean the manifold & orifices. Also make sure after you put the panel back on that its getting primary air, & not being choked. Looks like routine maintenance could have avoided this service call. Sell them a routine fall/spring check up & explain to the customer exactly what I just explained....its avoidable with routine maintenance.
@@thehvachacker Good job! IF you have to go back for the same thing, I recommend you bring a monometer up on that roof & start by checking both the incoming gas pressure & the outgoing gas pressure. The data label should specify what they should be. If not, call a supply house that promotes that brand & ask them what they should be. Incorrect gas pressures will not only cause no heat issues, but they will also shorten the life expectancy of parts, such as flame sensors, etc.
I had enough incoming and exsiting gas pressure it’s suppose to be at least 5”w.c. In and 3.5”w.c. out. The problem was the flame sensor wasn’t sensing the pilot burning on it. If you watch the second part of this where I go back and repair the unit you will see the style pilot it has. Usually it gets plugged up and restricted by spiders or bugs
I seen that once. The regulator had a weather shield on it that broke off. The thing was iced up. I actually put a main valve on before I found the issue. Shame on me. We live and learn!
I feel for ya. Nobody wants to be on the roof freezing their ass off. You think clearer when you slow down. make the area a bit more comfortable. I would have shoveled out a big area there first. The screw gun is a must. Pipe wrenches too. I know you look down on this old junk and just think how much shit I'm gonna have to take apart just to get at this cross-over tube. When I remove them, I blast them good with N at the truck. The sensor is not as critical as the sparker is, even if the sensor ceramic were cracked. That voltage just can't jump that far. with that design you just can't see whats going on at the sensor. If it were visible I'm sure you would have seen the flame dancing all around the sensor rod as it indicated by the microamp readings. If you suspect a short to ground, Ohm it. The two things I would have done, is say to myself, quit delaying the inevitable and yank it out. Ya, its a pain , but its needed. This will also give you the opportunity to visually inspect the interior of the tubes for cracks to condemn it. The evidence you found there had someone else replacing the sensor, multiple times before you arrived. I would check the pilot gas tube pressure while also when I reassembled it after cleaning. I've had Magic Chef units that I had to distort the zip tube to get it to lite properly because the main gas wouldn't catch, and it would go off on safety. After I redirected it to lite the main gas, It was almost immediate every time. They also get jammed with spider eggs... some of these flame sensors don't do well by cleaning, and scotch brite sometimes leaves a plasticy film that contaminates them. I use 0000 steel wool, to polish them only. sometimes the sensor just does what it was designed to do, and gets condemned for it.
I have to cover all aspects of failure. The parts needed weren’t on my truck. I don’t run out for parts I go to the next job. So I want to make it work which it did for 3 weeks before my band aide failed and they called to order the parts. If anyone does a quick repair for you and a week later something else goes you would accuse him of not doing there job. Even if the failure is unrelated to his repair. Or what if the tech comes back with parts starts the unit and then finds out the heat exchanger is shot? Wouldn’t you want to know if your system should be upgraded before spending money on a flame sensor and pilot ribbon?
can anyone answer this, what is a realistic number for how much i should make my first year as an actual hvac tech, starting at level? I am in an area where there are 5 large companies.
I wouldn’t stress how much you make your first year. If you ask for too much and get it there will be extremely hi expectations of you pulling off a lot of what you see me doing. If you come in knowing your first 2 or 3 years your costing your employer money yet eager to learn after 5-10 years can be making around 100k. I started at $10 an hour back in 1999. My company starts many techs around $15 when they start doing there’s own jobs they get an increase yet it becomes sink or swim on if they will last. Too many worry about starting pay. That’s not important. It’s what is the possibility of income as you become a good senior tech. There guys making over 50 an hour in my shop. You also can make a lot of money with all the overtime so factor that in.
@@thehvachacker Thanks to everyone who replied with a figure, the issue with the internet is you don't know why people ask. I usually tell those who I come in contact with, "answer the question to the best of your ability, nothing more nothing less'.
I switched from dewalt many years ago to the m18 fuel. Then wanted something smaller to fit in tool bag for roof top jobs, the m12 was perfect. I love the m18 feel hacksaw I just picked up around Christmas. Been very handy
The HVAC Hacker It’s unfortunate you lost your man card when I saw you fingering the flame sensor for five hours. Man didn’t even pull out his multi meter. 🤣🤣
The name of the spray is Jack of all Sprays. It looked impressive here. This video I filmed the day after the driveway melt video. This spray let me down on the leaking boiler drain busting rust pump bolt video I filmed a few hours after I finished this call. I am backlogged with videos to try to delete the scenes of me filming my boots
I will check it out. This stuff has a reaction with rust, mabey the bolts I tried to use it on was too far rusted with this spray. I even want to try ATF and acetone mixture.
In my best James Kirk ever . It must be air tight ... we need more power . Bloody hell I'm giving er all she's got . Quick bring me the calking gun I'll fix it ... lol
I had the same issue on the exact same York rooftop and it was the little orifice on the burner assembly that was sulphided, I had to take all the burner out in order to replace it. Pictures of it are available on my Instagram Page: Caspian.inc
Bad ground @ the circuit board. Flame conducts electricity. Not very well, and it's a 1/2 way rectifyer. That is what the circuit board is looking for - Class 2 HVAC here
It does. If it wasn't I wouldn't keep it with me. I have had that meter a long time. Their clamp meters never seemed to last with me I would burn through those every couple of years.
Floodlights are code for RTU units in jersey. Usually, they are busted missing lenses, yet the outlets usually still work after hitting the reset button
Um the rollout switch on this equipment is problematic it will be corroded inside and cause a voltage drop. This device is on the common side of the transformer so it will appear to be poor flame sensing. If you touch one of these units change the rollout!!!!!
York was junk before they ripped off carrier's design. As a lead tech my only criticism of your work was the ladder not being high enough above the roof.
Flame sensors are like ten bucks, you should have thrown one in it when you found the problem with the one you pulled out, instead you wasted time looking around to only go back to the flame sensor.
Where would I have gotten one from? I didn't have it on my truck or I would have. I also knew I couldn't go to the supply house. I got it to work with the PVC glue yet that won't last. I am scheduled to replace the sensor on 12/7
You spent all of the time trying to clean a fucking flame sensor???? Not to mention the time you spent on the damn screws because you didn't bring up your drill!
And I have had guys "replace" circuit board". Doesn't fix because they used the same ground path. It works for a while then same problems again. Problem using this method normally presents itself in 1 or 2 days
You are correct and I see the board replaced often and it’s not the board. Yet this was the flame sensor, I replaced it, I did play with the ground from the controller to burner plate cause a bad ground can cause headaches. With new flame sensor it light quickly every time. Yet voltage milliamps was pulsing. Yet the ignition module is actually causing the pulse
don't know what you do with the flame sensors, but at the company I work for we clean them off with scotch bright, if they are still good. Of course if it has a lot of sediment build up on it, it will not ground out sensing the flame.
I clean the sensor yet this one was no good I got it to operate for 3 weeks after i left then replaced the ignitor, flame sensor, and pilot ribbon. the porcelain was cracked
The HVAC Hacker cold wave is coming ... we will have 30 at night and like 50 day . So many service calls where they have no heat strips and heat pump goes into defrost at night.
@@thehvachacker NO THE LIMITER SENSES THE AMOUNT OF HEAT ANDLIMITS THE AMOUNT OF HEAT BUILD UP IN THE UNIT IF IT GOES BAD IT WILL START CUTTING THE BURNERS ON AND OFF ALSO
Ok so here in the US or at least my area it’s just caused a limit. Yes if the heat exchanger gets over a certain tempetjre it cuts the gas and runs blower until it cools off. Yet here my flame signal was weak which was causing the ignition module to shut down the gas valve.
Don't forget about the accelerator. The accelerator boots the the flame when the limiter limits it too much. If the accelerator fails, the limiter gets mad and stops working too.
all of us commercial guys that work on these all the time know what it was 1 of 3 things on this unit as soon as wee seen it lol, spiders and bugs die in the vent line blocking the gas line and the 2nd is the flame rail just like this problem and the third is the rail gets dirt built up and stops the spark.
I don't think he knew enough about his job I had been servicing heating units similar for over 25 years The time he wasted cleaning these Ignitors at the beginning he did say low Pilot flame That is the first thing you rectify By checking the MillivoltsI thermocouple or Thermopile then 90% our problems are solved Before my Retirement I was a Industrial Service Technichian the Time he wasted on cleaning the Spark ignitors it would have been cheaper to just put new ones in Labour = time Time =Money
John how do I put new ones in if I don’t have them on my truck? I did go back with new flame sensor which is what I was cleaning and it resolved the problem. I have to make work what is in front of me since someone in the office beleives the trucks inventory needed to be striped to 10k. I also didn’t get back with the flame sensor till dec 10th. So not trying to clean which works 99% of the time. Should not have been attempted?
other guys in my are first charge 300 dollars for a new capacitor and then replace the igniter, I lost my dam mind, and then I discovered the air filter was totally clogged and it was sucking in the sides of the unit, the up draft sensor was turning off the flame and fan, the idiot had no clue and then told me it needed a new fan motor, it just kills me, how the simple basic things they don't check, and I had 2 different people look at it, just killed me, killed me I tell ya' for me to discover it was just the air filter cutting off the air flow all that time, these new guys are idiots, there is no way these guys are trained on any HVAC units, they get nervous and call their boss on the phone asking for help,
Dude, electronic flame sense and a standing pilot/ pilot generator are not the same!. No MV to check because no thermocouple or thermopile. The electronics use flame rectification of a AC signal from the module to create a DC current flow. From his meter reads I suspect the sense circuit in the module is starting to go bad, the pulses of uA DC makes me think the thing is making a poor AC signal
Actually one of them is an ignitor and the other was a flame sensor. It depends where they are connected on the ignition module. It sparks to the pilot ribbon.
It is a Carhartt zippered sweatshirt that is thermally lined it's about 7 years old. It was once dark black yet faded somewhat over the years. Is that what they are going for today? My wife got me a new Navy Carhartt pullover thermally lined sweatshirt for Christmas last year. I had on at the very end of this video.
@@thehvachacker im not sure it just looked like what i just seen at the store i though it was a really good sweater then saw the price tag of 250 lol. i'm sure its the best sweater coat you could ever have.
When I started a few guys I worked with were troubleshooting with the Simpson Meters. That was 1999. The refrigerant gauges are going through the same change from analog to digital. I use both for ac work. yet still times have changed and if I charge a system to beer can cold I would get crucified on here. I am looking to get a Simpson in really nice condition, to use as a bench meter in my shop.
It does get cold here yet I love boiler work. I am the guy when its hi 60's low 70's and everyone in miami or lower florida is wearing sweatshirts and talking about it being cold, headed to the beach dressed as if its summer
try to position your camera on what you're working. on I know a lot of your videos all I see is the ground and this video all I see is snow. It would make your video a lot better.
I am trying my ADHD makes me work and forget at times about the camera. I am always trying to get better at working and creating videos at the same time
I just love all the "experts" weighing in and criticizing this mans work, especially the one clown who claimed his boss wants everything diagnosed within 15 minutes or you arent doing it right. Whatever. Weve all made mistakes and have missed obvious things, no two calls are really ever the same because you dont know the history of the units and how many hacks have been there before you. Vid watchers need to relax and appreciate the work that goes into making a video for us to enjoy.
I would get fired on many jobs if I only have 15 minutes to diagnose. Took me 1-3/4 today to trace out a short on a 12-ton air handler and sterling gas heater. The transformer in the condenser was tripped. A friggen tiny piece of metal shard behind wire terminal block to the air handler metal casing. I had it traced to the g wire until I spotted that.
@@thehvachacker : Nice find! I just think its a problem of too many voices- I dont care if its here or some comment section in a news article, theres a contingent of people out there who are always going to have a better way no matter what. Theres no talking sense to them so I applaud all of you guys who take the time to post your work, despite that crowd. Keep it up brother, I just subscribed!
@Rick Aleman : We have one, and your Moms loving it!
@Rick Aleman : Says the clown with the "get a room" joke.
Rick Aleman aren’t you a “business owner”? I saw you on another comment on this video. Don’t you have better things to do than talk shit on RUclips? Friggin trolls man.
Respect ✊ Bro
Every season professional technician like myself servicing a lot of commercial /industrial roof top Hvac units and Refrigeration rack and single units in the brutal north east year round 24/7 sometimes can tell right away your a pros pro , people should be really great full of good tech but it takes one to know one , keep doing what we do I enjoy the process also great 👍 videos
Thanks, I will keep plugging away. I enjoy all the calls even the PITA short I dealt with today.
agreed. it's a tough life in the winter.
It can be the weather is the toughest part of this trade. The machines can have nucense problems. Yet many easy jobs we also run into
On those old york/luxaire units I always pull the burner first , to clean the tubes and look for spider webs in the pilot orifice, and always change the flame sensor. On some models there is a high limit directly opposite side of the burner panel.
Thanks for the videos, keep them coming, it is great to watch and learn.
No problem these are all experiences that I learn from also
I live in New Hampshire, and these York units are very common up here. I've found that when the heat is off for the summer, spiders will find a home inside that pilot crossover tube and screw everything up. What I typically do is pull the whole burner assembly out and take the pilot tube apart and blow it out. Check the pilot orfice, make sure it's not clogged. Clean the flame sensor while the burners are out. Pulling the burner assembly is quick and simple. Just a union and a couple screws. Put it back together and watch it fire off. May need to adjust the pilot pressure a tad. And 95% of the time the heat fires off for me after doing this.
And always hit the roof with a drill. Pulling panels off with a nutdirver is crazy talk.
Did many repairs on those model york gas paks. A few heat exchanger replacements. The notorious rotted out or clogged pilot tubing and crappy inducer motor that the centrifugal switch goes bad on back of motors. ...... Good video HVAC HACKER
I hate this model Yorks those pilot tubings always clogged or rotted. The fire retardant wall melted from the flame rollout. Wind screws up pilot burning on pilot tubing causing flame failures. The exhaust hoods at least is not screwed into the frame of the unit like other yorks
Fun fact.. Strip the HELL out of the philips screw and then use a Robertson in the place left behind.. it works perfect. also if the screw turns for ever then use a wood chisels. put the tip under the screw like a wedge, turn the screw and then when it pulls out a bit use the tip of the chisel as the ramp for the screw to retract on... Problem solving, its what i do :) I hate roof top units, they always fail when its cold or raining... never on a nice day. Flame sensor is recieving voltage, it is short cycling either the Sensor itself but most likely the Si84 Ignition module. I like to point out for everybody thats being a dick that this guy could have been awake for 48 + hours on no heat calls, I will admit I would have handled this differently but I cannot judge without being the person there. Any body who works in the field knows that sometimes you are only still awake due to copious amounts of coffee.. :)
I do that with my blade when it happens. Works well. Except when you can't reach a blade or chisel in there. ;)
I have done a few package units and some condensing units. One common thread is I find a lot of screws missing. I will replace missing or worn out screws. It makes the customers happy to show you care about your work.
I usually have to make new holes since many strip them out or the hole does rust and become bigger over time. A lot of screws are always missing. It depends on the day for me but usually I feel the screws need to be there
Hacker when I use to service Autozone stores they had some York unit and most were flame sensors and the electrical compartment would catch on fire. Some had open roll out switches too. Good video and a teaching method of why it failed.
This one hasn't had a flame roll yet. Many York RTU this style the fire retardant wall the electric ignition is mounted to is usually melted and burnt from previous thermal events. The worst part with these RTU's is the flame sensor or ignitor fails and the Philips screw usually have been rounded out
Those York/Luxaire RTU's are a pain in the ass. My first few years in this I was always going crazy trying to figure out why the burners wouldnt light, or why only half of them would light. little did i know that the stupid pilot tube would usually be the culprit. Either the ferrul on the tube would rot away or the tube would be clogged some how.
The pilot tube does cause lots of problems with these yet this one was good. I replaced it anyway since I ordered the flame sense and pilot tube. It seems it is either raining or I am laying in the snow working on this style york. Pulling out the burner section. They just couldn't use burners with the built-in gas runway
Yeah, i never understood why it was setup like that. The two bolts in the back holding that thing together are a pain in the ass, Ive snapped them on two occasions in the freezing cold....anyway keep up the good work, always look forward to your videos! @@thehvachacker
when ever i replace the heat exchangers i always change out the ventor motors they go hand in hand! good vids .
Flame sensor rods rectify AC into DC current in the flame. The current in in the uA range, not mA range. Use the correct meter. We are not looking for 2,000 uA or 2mA on that meter. The unstable display would have me very first check the pilot flame on the sensor. The sensor must be in the flame to work. Just near the flame will cause an erratic reading when the pilot is blown in the breeze when the unit is open. For it to work it has to have the AC voltage present which is relatively high voltage. Ensure the voltage is present and stable.
I know it is cold and miserable to get down and view the flame and sensor. Use a cell phone camera or inspection mirror to view the flame and sensor relationship.
How are you testing flame current if not for UA? You do know you are looking for microamps? 2-5 UA is what the ignition board is looking for. What are you setting your meter to when testing flame current? I have seen the flame on the pilot rail across and on the flame sensor. These flame sensors fail all the time where they rest on the burner assembly. The sensor is almost touching the pilot rail which goes across under the burners. Usually, spiders close up the tubing. This video didn't get an ending cause I forgot to turn the camera back on. Yet after I put PVC glue over the crack on the flame sensor I had microamps on my meter and the burner remained on. The heat and vibration of the unit will destroy the thin layer of insulation the PVC glue is making and cause the flame signal to bleed back into ground why I had erratic readings on my meter.
@@thehvachacker I noticed you used a mA scale on one meter. If it is 400 mA full scale at 4000 count full scale, the range of the meter scale is from 0.1 mA to 400 mA. This meter is not appropriate to read 2 uA or 0.002 mA. Know the range of your test equipment. mA and uA are not the same.
@@isettech the scale i set my meter to was ua
The fluke only has a ua not ma scale for testing flame current it is the 902 hvac meter
@@thehvachacker The fluke was the correct meter to use. The first meter on the mA scale was the wrong meter for the job.
For those Phillips screws holding in the flame sensor and ignitor in try tapping the end of your screw driver first before trying to loosen them, the shock usually frees them up, works for me.
Good tip
these noobs just kill me, and that spray can stuff, wonder if it was flammable,
Respect to the us as hvac guys I been on the roof working on this 20ton York unit no joke .peace my brothers
The whole pilot/flame proving set up on those Yorks suck. I take care of a ton of them. The pilot rail is a constant issue (spider webs and rust) and the flame sensors are always rusted. You got lucky. I always seem to have to pull the burner assembly. But, it's not too bad to pull it on those.
Nice video. Much appreciated.
Usually, I have to pull the burner assembly out. York couldn't just do an inshot burner with a rail built into burner
If it's shutting down on flame sense the 24 volts to the module will not change. If the limits open they will break the 24 v input.Check first to establish cause. After cleaning sensor remove and clean pilot line, of rust spiders etc without proper flame how can it sense properly. You need to start establishing cause and effect and stop hunting in circles. Treat the units problem as a wiring diagnosis. Start somewhere and go threw the chain of cause and effect and find the problem. Jumping around just slows you down and scrambles your thought processes. 40 yrs in the trade and training lots of newbees, has proved that a plan of attack and following the cause and effect chain is always faster and less stressfull. Good Luck
I knew it was flame sense from the beginning yet wanted to condemn the heat exchanger. Too bad it looked good, then I was working on the flame sensor. I returned and replaced the sensor and pilot tubing. Even though the tubing I removed wasn’t restricted. Many times I just clean that tubing and fires up.
@@thehvachacker dont let comments like these slow you down. i enjoy watching you go through the troubleshooting process
Pull the burner rack clean entire burner assembly and support bracket u don't have enough ground area gets worst when cabinet heats up look for 2to 4 microamps by the way good job u test don't guess
I replaced the flame sensor and the problem went away. I also changed the pilot ribbon since it usually causes a headache after several years in operation.
Just passing along a few words of wisdom. 25 yrs and ended up in another type work. Now all that info from over the years is going to waste. :/ When thinking of the flame sensor, also think of the entire flame sense circuit. (not in order of failure or checks... I"ll just go in order of circuit from the board) Board voltage out to the flame sense wire varies but a generic number is 88 volts AC measured from the flame sensor wire to ground. Don't let the DC current reading fool you. It is an AC voltage and yup, it is HIGHER than 24 volts even though board is fed by 24 volt transformer. At least, most of the time. There's a few cases that don't abide by that generic voltage. Smart valves come to mind. In a horribly simplified view, the current can pass through the flame, but can't suck back the other way.(rectification) thus you have to measure in DC current. If there's no voltage, there won't be any current to check no matter how good the rest of the circuit is. Just keep in mind no voltage = bad board. Wire from board to sensor. Wire laying in bottom of cabinet with cracked insulation w/moisture don't help. And the wire connector to the sensor being rusted don't help either. Flame sensor cleaning is the most common issue of course. Next is the rest of the circuit. Need a good ground path back to the board. Is the burner rusted in area of flame sensor? IS the entire ground path good to go. I've had units use the cabinets for the ground path and when the cabinets start rusting you lose a good solid ground path and have had to add grounds from the burner to back to the board in order to get a good ground. I've also had boards replaced by other techs that have over tightened the screw that bonds the board to the cabinet be all stripped out. Sorry so long, got carried away. Might I also suggest a dewalt DW920K-2. It fits nice in a toolbag. Good for when you just got a few screws to contend with. Be safe out there!
Good info and I will be looking for this 88 VAC on Monday. How is the best way to test it?
flame sense on board to ground or unplug the wire from the flame sensor and measure from the wire directly to ground. There's only two reasons I would ever reference to ground, and this is one of em. THe other is just as a safety check. L1 to ground, L2 to ground, L3 to ground before I touch anything especially in a 480 volt system. I got lit up once when one of the legs was still connected in a three phase disconnect. SUre, turned the thing off and the unit shut off, but it lit me up when I cut the ground from the condenser fan motor I had held up in the air. Hots where still connected. Motor shorted to ground. VOltage said "Fine, you take away my perfectly good path to ground from this shorted out motor and I'll pass through you instead." And I answered with a respectable BZZZZZZZTT!!!! Ooops... off track..... The 88 volts is really really generic. The actual voltage is all over the place depending on manufacturer. And the voltage can change if you have a flame going too. But if the flame is going, sometimes the board will drop the burner out thinking something shorted the sensor. The number 88 stuck in my head since the first time I heard about it from some guy from honeywell. Keep in mind, you're not looking for a magic voltage number, you're looking to see if you have something or nothing. Grant it, if you've had one thats randomly shutting down and you know that the last several of these units measured a respectable 104 volts and this one unit only has 55 volts instead..... I think I'd question something wrong with the board. Maint this is.... IF you have no volts, how the heck is that board/ignition control module going to have current? I'm sure a bunch of guys have run across the little blue boxes on york from johnson controls. Those only run at like 14 volts or so. Thus the reason the current reading is so low and makes you scratch your head wondering "how the heck do I have a steady flame and my micro amp reading is next to nothing?"
heres a good read with a bit more info about it. www.meiersupply.com/contentonly.aspx?file=customerpages/Techtips/TechSpeaking%202010%20Issue6%20Flame%20Rectification.pdf
I have a same york but with a G775 control module, no spark. I think I need all the parts ready to change. What's the part number of this flame seneor?
I never worked in the snow like that, I live in CA. York units like that, I have found little spiders in the pilot mixing tube. They like the gas smell, they make a web inside just pass the air fuel mixing port. I use a bicycle break cable to run inside the tube and clear it. I saw the little shit come out of there, it's a clear looking spider.
Yea I have had that happen I always used Tstat wire to break yet bicycle brake cable seems like a good idea.
I had that issue, the rust on burner was causing the flame signal not able to go to ground,also had to add ground wire to burner
These York RTU’s can be a PITA sometime. I forgot to continue filming with this one. PVC glue seemed to help. I will find out this week when I go back with new flame sensor and pilot ribbon. So I will unfortunately I have to pull the burners on my return visit
could it be that water was running down the flame sensor wire considering the resting location of the wire and that is the reason why the outside cover was sealed in such a manner ?
this does explain the rust on the ceramic of the sensor.
It could be, usually, the door doesn't close good there so it may even wick water onto the ignition module. Looking where the flame sensor is mounted I see the white water stains. you could be onto something. Did you have water issues with this style york rtu?
U cleaned that sensor like my pop cleans his guns he still has from 'nam!! Lol
I like to see them polished I also wanted to clean up to verify if porcelain was cracked. Does your dad ever get to fire those guns since he takes great care of them?
The HVAC Hacker he developed Parkinson's so shooting guns isnt excactly the best idea so he just likes cleaning them...not that they get very dirty, or dirty at all, i guess thats the military in him...lol
Whatever makes your dad happy he should do. He deserves it for what he did for our country
Man, when I come across a unit that looks like it hasn't been touched in years(at the burners) like this one, the first thing I do is clean the flame sensor AND the burners.
Then I let god sort it out afterwards lol
Good idea
Any outdoor unit is subject to wind distortion of the flame when the panel is off. You should replace the panel when checking operation. Could easily disrupt flame rectification. Exterior units especially prone to bad grounds. I agree with suggestion consider secondary ground wire and really scrub the ground surface on the chassis. Agree you can use a megger to test flame rod insulation.
I came here for the specific information but after watching you turning nuts and bolts for over seven minutes I stopped and left. Very interesting. Thank you for the valuable information provided...
Did you find the info you are looking for in the first seven minutes? These are not really how to videos. I make videos of just a few of the many service calls I see on daily basis. To help others see what an HVAC tech faces and does. Many also learn what to or not do.
Looks like a cold day! Quick suggestion...these videos would be better if published after final result or fix. :-(
Also remember that "flame" is a very poor conductor of electricity. The flame rod is normally fed 120V AC. As the 120V is "conducted" through the flame the electric current is changed from 120V AC to 12V DC. And since the flame conduction is known as a half way rectifier, the circuit board is looking for a milivolt DC pulse. If the curcuit boar cant read that through it's ground then flame cuts out at about 3 sec - Hope this helps you. Hard lessons
Always hard lessons and every lesson is good. I learn on every call. I never claim to be the greatest tech I am just a tech having fun working on HVAC systems
Came with the blue box of death originally , Johnson controls, and they use up spark boxes a lot.
I till have a few of these with the blue boxes
Look up Project Farm’s videos on penetrating lubricants. He tests the major brands and checks common things like ATF and acetone. You’d probably like all of his videos.
I will have to check out that video. I watched him operate an engine on wd-40, at least I think it was him.
What is the flame sensor a, $15 part?
Something like that I didn’t look at invoice when I returned to replace which there is a video of
I usually clean pilot crossover tube but it you want you can put new pilot crossover tube and sensors get into those burners deeper you’ll see why
I usually clean them also I slid a wire in and no change. Had flame on rod. replaced both and unit worked. I need to try using computer dust off spray
Man it was cause of u I bought the gloves and a bag to take all my tools with me so much easier no more up and down for fuses or tape or zip ties or some jack ass put 1/4 and 5/16 or a few Phillips heads in it and got to run back to van everything in 1 trip to diagnose the go get part and done
Glad I was able to help you find some useful tools and gear. This job I was a little unorganized.
A real tech can take a multimeter, drill, and 6 and 1 and diagnose a unit. you dont need the bag until you find the problem. This man will teach you nothing go watch Anti DIY HVAC hes a real technician.
I work on those units all the time.
1. Water ingress happens near the control panel door and indoor blower door. It sucks the water in at the bottom of the doors.
2. The roll out switch can cause issues like what you had in the unit.
3. I always replace those shitty Philips screws for Robbie's.
4. As stated spiders love those pilot tubes. I push a wire down it or dump a co2 drain plug clearing tool into it.
Remove circuit board - sand casing - Reinstall in adjusted position with new screws. The voltage sent to the flame rod sends the electrical signal through the body of the furnace "conducted through the flames. Only remount circuit board maybe a 1/4" to one side or the other. You just want a good ground. intermittent problems is a result of the metal heating up and cooling off a couple thousand times. Flame rod cleaning is good but not the problem. When you go back because it doesn't light is because the temperature has changed, the metal in the furnace has moved ever so slightly. I remember that they would light if they were cold, then kick out when warm. Or the other way around. Remember that the flame rod is fed electricity. It is then conducted to the "frame" of the furnace as a "ground" through the actual flame (to prove ignition) and the circuit board reads that signal through its ground as proof of ignition. When the circuit board reads that it continues to keep the gas valve open.
did you ever do a follow up video on the thanksgiving morning service call with the bad blower motor?
One of my coworkers went back today and replaced the module and blower. I was on a 16 hour maintenance with another coworker today
Clean that light bar real good and throw in a spark box and get back in the van. used to service a roof full of them. very intrmiitant
The bar seemed good yet I ordered a new flame sensor and pilot ribbon for this unit. the ignition module was just replaced in april according to the records.
Thanks for your videos. Hey where are you located?
Jersey
What you do isn’t my line of work. So I enjoy watching you work and “solving a mystery” in a way.
Any chance you might do a video explaining how your equipment works?
Sure I can do a video showing the sequence of operation. If that Will help you follow how I troubleshoot
The HVAC Hacker that’d be great! Keep doing what you’re doing. Your videos are great and much appreciated!
Did he watch this video Before posting it? Who wants to see all that snow?
Working in the snow is all part of the job. 😂
Everytime I watch 1 of your videos Im like - Been there done that. I bet Ive trouble shot and repaired 500 of those York gas packs. Same issues EVERY TIME.
This was a popular RTU. I wish it was easier to pull out the pilot tubing to clean. Since you done so many have you found a way to do that without pulling the burner assembly out?
For the most part - Very few have been pilot tubing. Just like other techs have commented - replace everything. The ignition boxes have given me a ton of issues. Sometimes they work perfect for 30 cycles and sometimes really weak on 1 or 2 fire attempts. And of course the NOTORIOUS DRAFT motor failures and tricky cracked porcelain on the flame sensors. Its got me a few times in the early days. You did a great job bro. Good as anybody else. Just replace all those sensors and they are cheap enuff. Soon as u climbed that ladder and reached the top and I seen that damn York - I said I know exactly where this is going lol. Im working out of Maryland btw. Good luck 👍👍
I always replace them Phillip's screws with zip screws
Good to do
The roofers decided that a gas pack on the roof was the cause of their roof leak. After they tarred every panel seam and that didn't cure it, they covered it completely with a sheet metal box.......that's when I got the call. Totally starved for air, the folks in the restaurant were huffing some serious fumes.I shut it down and told them to get their roofers and uncover the damn thing........they later found their leak at a chimney. I had to dig through all that tar to access the furnace 6 months later to replace the exhaust blower.......
Did anyone else see that leaf fly into the unit like it was on a mission lol
it was cold and looking for shelter
I initially thought it was a bird!!
Those units have a pilot cross over tube
Spider webs 🕸 clogged up
York direct spark ⚡️
Pain in butt to clean but I’ll bet that’s what wrong as the crossover tube are notoriously problematic when it does crud up
I do the same thing with gloves. Latex alone can keep your hands from freezing especially with the wind on the RTU units.
My supply house has long straight flame sensors that can be bent to any shape provided you heat it to red hot first.
Someday they’ll make a resilient flame sensor we can hope.
I was just editing part 2 of this mentioning how I feel it was designed to fail
@@thehvachacker I like how they heat up and tend to warp or bend then crack, I am just a home owner and know the issues so well I do all the work on that,
You have to polish York flame sensors, not just brush, or you'll be back next year.
I replaced it with the pilot ribbon
Don't you find a lot of times its oxidation on the actual flame sensor connector spade clip instead of the sensor itself? Those zip tube pilots are troublesome with low pilot gas pressure too. The flame could be too small too small to rectify the ground signal and the result is almost immediate flame failure. Also oxidation down the interior of the zip tube can restrict proper pilot gas flow and create a similar issue.
Honeywell makes a wonderful analog micro-amp meter to read flame signals extremely accurately. It won't jump around like the digital does and you can see easily the strength (or weakness) in the signal quickly.
That unit also should have a time delay relay in the control compartment that starts the fan in the heat mode. If that fails or is in the process of failing, this unit will go out on high limit intermittently. To check for a failing tdr, flip the stat to the 'on' position and see if it goes out on limit again... If not, I'd think of changing the tdr. I think I heard you say the fan was on and running so this is probably a moot point. Sorry for the ramble but you are doing good man.
It’s why I wrote up the zip tube with the flame sensor. I forgot to film the end yet pvc flue in the flame sensor porcelain seemed to get it to work.
Hacker, watching this video makes me wanna not service HVAC anymore! You can keep the snow and ice, I’m outta NJ! After 35 years of this, I’m going South.
I've never wired a honeywell module on that York before ,off my head I believe the rectification signals are different,I mean the rectification signal for the the robershaw to work compared to the honeywell,always a Robert shaw or something that crosses over,that's called a crossover tuber pilot.
And seriously it's always that crossover tube,and the ignitor is I believe the same dam setup as sense it ignites off a small spark off the crossover need a dam mirror to see spark ,crossover tubes suck to replace,it always that.seriously
I’ve never done one on a rheem RTU but I use rheem for residential side work for 30 or so years and can’t say enough good things about them
The residential Rheem units are built like tanks even if the condensers where never cleaned they chugged along.
Hey soo what is a good place to get into to train me on how to do this
I started at Lincoln Technical Institute back in 1998. You will only learn the basics but without it’s hard to get a service job. You can get an installation job without trade school. When I got out of trade school I thought I knew it all only to find I was clueless. 20 years in the field later still am learning on many jobs.
The HVAC Hacker thank you
Before spending money for training I would suggest you take an aptitude test. There are certain traits that are needed to do this work. Troubleshooting, good with your hands etc. If this is a good fit for you you will be set.
Also depending on where you live being able to withstand working in very hot places such as an attic on a 100 degree day which could be around 140 or outside on a very cold day. While dealing with the climate you still always need to be correct in diagnosing or customers won’t pay. Not like a doctor who can be wrong most the time and still make us pay
It depends, Check your local community college. I'm thinking about taking courses. But if you're able to find someone that can take you under their wing and train you as an apprentice. Be even better.
What about incoming & out going gas pressure?
I'd check that & clean the manifold & orifices. Also make sure after you put the panel back on that its getting primary air, & not being choked. Looks like routine maintenance could have avoided this service call. Sell them a routine fall/spring check up & explain to the customer exactly what I just explained....its avoidable with routine maintenance.
It’s running I replaced the flame sensor and pilot ribbon tube
@@thehvachacker Good job! IF you have to go back for the same thing, I recommend you bring a monometer up on that roof & start by checking both the incoming gas pressure & the outgoing gas pressure. The data label should specify what they should be. If not, call a supply house that promotes that brand & ask them what they should be.
Incorrect gas pressures will not only cause no heat issues, but they will also shorten the life expectancy of parts, such as flame sensors, etc.
I had enough incoming and exsiting gas pressure it’s suppose to be at least 5”w.c. In and 3.5”w.c. out. The problem was the flame sensor wasn’t sensing the pilot burning on it. If you watch the second part of this where I go back and repair the unit you will see the style pilot it has. Usually it gets plugged up and restricted by spiders or bugs
I seen that once. The regulator had a weather shield on it that broke off. The thing was iced up. I actually put a main valve on before I found the issue. Shame on me. We live and learn!
I feel for ya. Nobody wants to be on the roof freezing their ass off. You think clearer when you slow down. make the area a bit more comfortable. I would have shoveled out a big area there first. The screw gun is a must. Pipe wrenches too. I know you look down on this old junk and just think how much shit I'm gonna have to take apart just to get at this cross-over tube. When I remove them, I blast them good with N at the truck. The sensor is not as critical as the sparker is, even if the sensor ceramic were cracked. That voltage just can't jump that far. with that design you just can't see whats going on at the sensor. If it were visible I'm sure you would have seen the flame dancing all around the sensor rod as it indicated by the microamp readings. If you suspect a short to ground, Ohm it. The two things I would have done, is say to myself, quit delaying the inevitable and yank it out. Ya, its a pain , but its needed. This will also give you the opportunity to visually inspect the interior of the tubes for cracks to condemn it. The evidence you found there had someone else replacing the sensor, multiple times before you arrived. I would check the pilot gas tube pressure while also when I reassembled it after cleaning.
I've had Magic Chef units that I had to distort the zip tube to get it to lite properly because the main gas wouldn't catch, and it would go off on safety. After I redirected it to lite the main gas, It was almost immediate every time. They also get jammed with spider eggs... some of these flame sensors don't do well by cleaning, and scotch brite sometimes leaves a plasticy film that contaminates them. I use 0000 steel wool, to polish them only. sometimes the sensor just does what it was designed to do, and gets condemned for it.
When in doubt change it out!
When all else fails, change it
Watching your service calls are so damn frustrating!!
As a customer, I wouldn't want this guy working on my stuff. looks like he's eating up the clock
That's Being a good tech.
That’s why you’re a customer, and not a technician.
I have to cover all aspects of failure. The parts needed weren’t on my truck. I don’t run out for parts I go to the next job. So I want to make it work which it did for 3 weeks before my band aide failed and they called to order the parts. If anyone does a quick repair for you and a week later something else goes you would accuse him of not doing there job. Even if the failure is unrelated to his repair. Or what if the tech comes back with parts starts the unit and then finds out the heat exchanger is shot? Wouldn’t you want to know if your system should be upgraded before spending money on a flame sensor and pilot ribbon?
can anyone answer this, what is a realistic number for how much i should make my first year as an actual hvac tech, starting at level? I am in an area where there are 5 large companies.
I wouldn’t stress how much you make your first year. If you ask for too much and get it there will be extremely hi expectations of you pulling off a lot of what you see me doing. If you come in knowing your first 2 or 3 years your costing your employer money yet eager to learn after 5-10 years can be making around 100k. I started at $10 an hour back in 1999. My company starts many techs around $15 when they start doing there’s own jobs they get an increase yet it becomes sink or swim on if they will last. Too many worry about starting pay. That’s not important. It’s what is the possibility of income as you become a good senior tech. There guys making over 50 an hour in my shop. You also can make a lot of money with all the overtime so factor that in.
Low ball and show your potential
too many expect too much without proving there worth. everyone wants to skip the crawling and go directly to marathon racing
You should make 40% of what your journey person makes. Here JM’s make $40.00/hour and a first year with schooling would start around $16.00/hour.
@@thehvachacker Thanks to everyone who replied with a figure, the issue with the internet is you don't know why people ask. I usually tell those who I come in contact with, "answer the question to the best of your ability, nothing more nothing less'.
You might want to see if the unit has a cracked heat exchanger, you may be getting air blowing on the flame sensor.
Flame sensors are common on that York.Good job
Them and plugged pilot rails. I believe the system was designed to break flame sensors right on the metal where it mounts to burner plate.
Good choice in tool brand... Milwaukee
I switched from dewalt many years ago to the m18 fuel. Then wanted something smaller to fit in tool bag for roof top jobs, the m12 was perfect. I love the m18 feel hacksaw I just picked up around Christmas. Been very handy
robert rob Broke ass.. get Hilti.
I would go with Milwaukee over hilti unless I need a serious hammer drill for big holes in foundations then the older hilti
The HVAC Hacker It’s unfortunate you lost your man card when I saw you fingering the flame sensor for five hours. Man didn’t even pull out his multi meter. 🤣🤣
what’s the name of that rust remover in a can u used?
Yeah, seems good because that reaction.
The name of the spray is Jack of all Sprays. It looked impressive here. This video I filmed the day after the driveway melt video. This spray let me down on the leaking boiler drain busting rust pump bolt video I filmed a few hours after I finished this call. I am backlogged with videos to try to delete the scenes of me filming my boots
The HVAC Hacker WD-40 has a new rusted /seized bolt breaker penetration spray. works good.
I will check it out. This stuff has a reaction with rust, mabey the bolts I tried to use it on was too far rusted with this spray. I even want to try ATF and acetone mixture.
The controller looks pretty simple on that bugger makes it a little easier to find the problem
It is a very simple electronic ignition module found on most boilers and spark ignition systems
In my best James Kirk ever . It must be air tight ... we need more power . Bloody hell I'm giving er all she's got . Quick bring me the calking gun I'll fix it ... lol
We don’t need no friggen service
Yes to Fluke - a real meter (13:30 ) , no other alternative.
I like my fluke, old but reliable
Those units get a new pilot runner tube, a sparker, and a sensor. Once every two years. Never cared for those style York’s.
I order the pilot tubing with the flame sensor since it’s been a few years since it was changed
I had the same issue on the exact same York rooftop and it was the little orifice on the burner assembly that was sulphided, I had to take all the burner out in order to replace it. Pictures of it are available on my Instagram Page: Caspian.inc
I replaced that tube and flame sensor on the return visit ruclips.net/video/lFeq-qL8dOA/видео.html
I believe this man need my help.
Nobody needs an Oscar boys help
WOW. WHAT A HACK!
Bad ground @ the circuit board. Flame conducts electricity. Not very well, and it's a 1/2 way rectifyer. That is what the circuit board is looking for - Class 2 HVAC here
No classes can this tech be placed. Since I need special classes created just for me
The HVAC Hacker ouch, you burned him. Lol.
Looks like the Fieldpiece was reliable
It does. If it wasn't I wouldn't keep it with me. I have had that meter a long time. Their clamp meters never seemed to last with me I would burn through those every couple of years.
Almost think they're up there messing with it all the time, considering the floodlights.....
Floodlights are code for RTU units in jersey. Usually, they are busted missing lenses, yet the outlets usually still work after hitting the reset button
@@thehvachacker required, just not required to work after inspection, lol!
@@thehvachacker is that a light for every RTU, or just one for the whole rooftop? I haven't seen this in Texas.
I believe it should be for every unit yet sometimes they are every few. I need to look up the actual code.
I work on these with with second stage burners .in shot burners get rusted flame or ignition module will go out terrible
Um the rollout switch on this equipment is problematic it will be corroded inside and cause a voltage drop. This device is on the common side of the transformer so it will appear to be poor flame sensing. If you touch one of these units change the rollout!!!!!
Yea but they are a rust bucket the whole burners and the pipe on the burners rot out its pain in the butt.
York was junk before they ripped off carrier's design. As a lead tech my only criticism of your work was the ladder not being high enough above the roof.
3 runs is what osha wants
@@thehvachacker
Three above.
I thought it was 3 above. That's what I always try to do. Just makes it easier to get on and off the ladder
If you had no Microamps how did flame stay on? Edit. Too long
They all are very stupit,.
Flame sensors are like ten bucks, you should have thrown one in it when you found the problem with the one you pulled out, instead you wasted time looking around to only go back to the flame sensor.
Where would I have gotten one from? I didn't have it on my truck or I would have. I also knew I couldn't go to the supply house. I got it to work with the PVC glue yet that won't last. I am scheduled to replace the sensor on 12/7
You spent all of the time trying to clean a fucking flame sensor???? Not to mention the time you spent on the damn screws because you didn't bring up your drill!
It’s ok the unit works and they have heat
What part of So Florida do you work out of ... Lol ... Good vid Hack ...
I’m in jersey right outside of NYC
i had to put on double gloves just to watch this video.
Got to keep the hands warm
And I have had guys "replace" circuit board". Doesn't fix because they used the same ground path. It works for a while then same problems again. Problem using this method normally presents itself in 1 or 2 days
You are correct and I see the board replaced often and it’s not the board. Yet this was the flame sensor, I replaced it, I did play with the ground from the controller to burner plate cause a bad ground can cause headaches. With new flame sensor it light quickly every time. Yet voltage milliamps was pulsing. Yet the ignition module is actually causing the pulse
You on long island?
across the river in jersey
don't know what you do with the flame sensors, but at the company I work for we clean them off with scotch bright, if they are still good. Of course if it has a lot of sediment build up on it, it will not ground out sensing the flame.
I clean the sensor yet this one was no good I got it to operate for 3 weeks after i left then replaced the ignitor, flame sensor, and pilot ribbon. the porcelain was cracked
Did anybody see the leaf get sucked into the burner housing?
Others mentioned it in the comments
Oh wow there is snow on the roof :)
Just a typical day at the office
The HVAC Hacker I am a Vegas tech... i got excited when see snow :)
I understand I been in Vegas when it gets cold overnight then bounces up to 80 during the day
The HVAC Hacker cold wave is coming ... we will have 30 at night and like 50 day . So many service calls where they have no heat strips and heat pump goes into defrost at night.
Most of the time its a limiter problem and thats what it appears to be here with the burners cutting on and off the way they are
Is the limiter like a flame sensor? The rod that senses flame to keep the gas valve open?
@@thehvachacker NO THE LIMITER SENSES THE AMOUNT OF HEAT ANDLIMITS THE AMOUNT OF HEAT BUILD UP IN THE UNIT IF IT GOES BAD IT WILL START CUTTING THE BURNERS ON AND OFF ALSO
Ok so here in the US or at least my area it’s just caused a limit. Yes if the heat exchanger gets over a certain tempetjre it cuts the gas and runs blower until it cools off. Yet here my flame signal was weak which was causing the ignition module to shut down the gas valve.
High limit senses the temperature is too high and kill power to gas valve, flame sensor senses the flame and tells the gas valve to stay on
Don't forget about the accelerator. The accelerator boots the the flame when the limiter limits it too much. If the accelerator fails, the limiter gets mad and stops working too.
Make sure you are grounded or the inducer motor is not at the right rpms .
Check if it’s properly grounded..
all of us commercial guys that work on these all the time know what it was 1 of 3 things on this unit as soon as wee seen it lol, spiders and bugs die in the vent line blocking the gas line and the 2nd is the flame rail just like this problem and the third is the rail gets dirt built up and stops the spark.
It was the flame sensor I replaced it. I also swapped the pilot rail to prevent any problems.
I don't think he knew enough about his job I had been servicing heating units similar for over 25 years The time he wasted cleaning these Ignitors at the beginning he did say low Pilot flame That is the first thing you rectify By checking the MillivoltsI thermocouple or Thermopile then 90% our problems are solved Before my Retirement I was a Industrial Service Technichian the Time he wasted on cleaning the Spark ignitors it would have been cheaper to just put new ones in Labour = time Time =Money
John how do I put new ones in if I don’t have them on my truck? I did go back with new flame sensor which is what I was cleaning and it resolved the problem. I have to make work what is in front of me since someone in the office beleives the trucks inventory needed to be striped to 10k. I also didn’t get back with the flame sensor till dec 10th. So not trying to clean which works 99% of the time. Should not have been attempted?
other guys in my are first charge 300 dollars for a new capacitor and then replace the igniter, I lost my dam mind, and then I discovered the air filter was totally clogged and it was sucking in the sides of the unit, the up draft sensor was turning off the flame and fan, the idiot had no clue and then told me it needed a new fan motor, it just kills me, how the simple basic things they don't check, and I had 2 different people look at it, just killed me, killed me I tell ya' for me to discover it was just the air filter cutting off the air flow all that time, these new guys are idiots, there is no way these guys are trained on any HVAC units, they get nervous and call their boss on the phone asking for help,
Dude, electronic flame sense and a standing pilot/ pilot generator are not the same!. No MV to check because no thermocouple or thermopile. The electronics use flame rectification of a AC signal from the module to create a DC current flow. From his meter reads I suspect the sense circuit in the module is starting to go bad, the pulses of uA DC makes me think the thing is making a poor AC signal
Those weren’t ignitors you held up at 3:35 those were flame sensors.
Actually one of them is an ignitor and the other was a flame sensor. It depends where they are connected on the ignition module. It sparks to the pilot ribbon.
is that a 250 dollar Carhartt sweater i just saw at the store today lol crazy price
It is a Carhartt zippered sweatshirt that is thermally lined it's about 7 years old. It was once dark black yet faded somewhat over the years. Is that what they are going for today? My wife got me a new Navy Carhartt pullover thermally lined sweatshirt for Christmas last year. I had on at the very end of this video.
@@thehvachacker im not sure it just looked like what i just seen at the store i though it was a really good sweater then saw the price tag of 250 lol. i'm sure its the best sweater coat you could ever have.
@@thehvachacker i cant seem to find it online mabye a store only item where i was
A camping outdoor store may have it online Cabrera’s, Ramsey outdoor, rei.
Nice Bench Made!
I like this knife seems many knife fanatics hate it’s lock-in good feature.
Can't see what you're seein' half the time.
Not to sound like a old man like me. Old school meeters with a hand. Do you think it would be helpful? LOL
Are you talking about a Simpson?
@@thehvachacker yep. Sorry I'm old. LOL
@@thehvachacker - if you know a simpson meter, you know your stuff.
When I started a few guys I worked with were troubleshooting with the Simpson Meters. That was 1999. The refrigerant gauges are going through the same change from analog to digital. I use both for ac work. yet still times have changed and if I charge a system to beer can cold I would get crucified on here. I am looking to get a Simpson in really nice condition, to use as a bench meter in my shop.
I do the same thing with my gloves everyone looks at me like I’m crazy though
if your hands are warm and they are complaining about there figures being cold then who is crazy?
Very true that’s usually how it ends up too
all that caulking, lol
We don't need no friggen service just seal the door.
Move down to the keys man, looks too cold
It does get cold here yet I love boiler work. I am the guy when its hi 60's low 70's and everyone in miami or lower florida is wearing sweatshirts and talking about it being cold, headed to the beach dressed as if its summer
It’s in the 60s right now down here in the Keys. It’s cold!
try to position your camera on what you're working. on I know a lot of your videos all I see is the ground and this video all I see is snow. It would make your video a lot better.
I am trying my ADHD makes me work and forget at times about the camera. I am always trying to get better at working and creating videos at the same time
@@thehvachacker what camera are you using on this video looks pretty clear
gopro hero 6 black