i was an avid Kirby CHALLENGERS fan when they first appeared, and certainly recognized a strong connection to the FF when they first appeared. I just saw the latter as a variation on the CHALLENGERS with super-powers and more personal drama layered on top of them (I always discerned a gradation in the personalities of the CHALLENGERS, tho it was not terribly pronounced. Their skill sets imposed an "attitude" on each of them, and they would occasionally get in a "dig" at each other, plus their facial expressions----the visual aspect---showed a range of reactions that to me was very indicative of their personalities.) To me, FF was obvious a new version of the CHALLENGERS, with some notable similarities and a lot of differences in the details. I feel sure that Stan had read at least some of the CHALLENGERS stories. I had a couple of lunches with Stan in the 80's to talk about projects and kick myself for not asking him about this.
I think it's almost certain that you could take any artist and find elements of their early work that are present in the more developed stuff. It would be strange to me if you were unable to find any parallels between any two works Kirby was involved in. Obviously, this seems to be a case where there are more similarities than usual, but it stands to reason that if every separate project is likely to have some similarities, then one of them is going to have more than the others.
@@RodrigoGarcia-ze5em Ace is a pilot, just as Ben is an expert pilot. Rocky is a pro-wrestler, which isn't an exact shared trait, but represents the physicality and bruteness of the two characters. Ben shares similarities with both Ace and Rocky. And June, being an intelligent woman who's intelligence is often ignored, while holding the group together, is quite like Sue. Johnny being Red makes sense too, I'm also acknowledging the name "Red" taking form in the Human Torch's physical appearance. Red is a "circus daredevil", which is similar to Johnny being a daredevil, characteristically speaking, and also represents his interest in motorsports and sportscars.
@@one_man_community Johnny's looks are taken directly from Jim Hammond's, not Red. Beyond that, Rocky doesn't act nor behave like Red and Comparing Sue to June seems disingenous to me. Having read FF comics, i would say Sue has elements from the respective wives of Lee and Kirby. Lee's wife has been described as being very emotional, sweet and obsessed with her looks, while Kirby's wife has been described as strong minded, protective and supportive. I consider these combined traits can be seen in Sue.
I'd argue that it's definitely a spiritual first draft. The differences are huge especially as the series progressed but so many of those early stories were the ones that felt most like rehashes of the Challengers of the Unknown stories, only this time they have superpowers. It's like arguing Repulsion is a rough draft of Rosemary's Baby. Though Rosemary's Baby is based on an original work that is completely separate from Polanski's Repulsion, there are so many elements that lends itself as a spiritual successor. But when looking at Jack Kirby's or any writer/artist's oeuvre, any prior work could be seen as a rough draft for the work that proceeds it. I mean the Forever People feels like a hippie evolution of the Fantastic Four for me. Hell, most of the DC and Marvel comics Kirby did feel like evolutions of his prior works. I doubt Stan Lee based the FF after the Challengers (seeing as it was Marvel's intent on copying JLA instead) but Kirby definitely did to, as you pointed out, some subconscious level because it's the "comfort crutch" writers lean on to tell the stories they know will do the job. That I feel is an argument I've seen many people make when saying the FF were based on the Challengers. Not as a "one-to-one" self-plagiarism but rather an evolution of an earlier work he did. That said... Are there ANY similarities between JLA and FF? I wonder if any of those early FF stories ring similar to early JLA stories... Hmmm
I do agree. Some commonality is there between the two works. At the same time, that commonality is also present in other works. If the topes, as I called them, were unique to both teams then I think one could definitively say that one was based on the other. Spiritual first draft may be a good way of putting it. Although, quite subconsciously.
i don't think it is Subconscious, Stan Lee lied about the origin of FF many times he didn't have consistent story, one time it's Martin Goodman playing Golf with DC Publisher talking about JLA, One time it is his wife who said write a comic for yourself one time it is both story one time he wanted to quit. Jack Kirby came up with the ideas based on his love for Mythology and Science, Stan filled the Balloons based on the drawings, FF is based on Challengers
@@AliFareedMC strongly disagree with your argument. The creative process used at marvel comics (the marvel mwthod) was simple, the writer and the artist had conversations where they came up with the plot, then the artist would draw said story changing elements he felt needed to be changed, later the writer would change elements in the drawn story he felt needed to be changed. Both Flo Steinberg (Marvel's recepcionist at the time) and John Romita Sr. (Who worked alongside Stan Lee and knew both him and Kirby personally) described Stan and Jack having long and creative conversations on the stories they were going to publish. John Romita Sr. In an interview described it: "We used to go out to lunch at the Playboy Club; sometimes four or five of us. We used to have wonderful conversations; I treasure them. You may have heard I used to drive home with them; whenever he was in for a story conference, Stan would drive Jack home. My house was on the way, so they'd drive me home, and then take Jack home. Sitting in the back seat of Stan's convertible with the top down, going up Queens Boulevard, listening to them plot stories, I felt like I was sitting behind Cecil B. DeMille's director's chair. It was the most wonderful thing; I felt like a kid back there". Another problem that a lot of people ignore is that Jack did misremenber just like Stan did, for example, Jack claimed once to have been involved in the creation of Iron Man, but Mark Evanier (a close friend of his) investigated said claim and came to the conclusion that it was wrong, and that Iron Man's creation was mostly the work of Stan Lee, Larry Lieber and Don Heck. Kirby also claimed once that he saw Stan Lee crying in the late 50s because Martin Goodman was considering closing the company and was moving out the furniture. Interviewer Gary Groth was skeptic about this anecdote, as Stan Lee was 36 at the time and Kirby described him as an adolescent and that this type of comments from Kirby should be taken with a grain of salt. When asked about this, Stan said: "If they ever moved the furniture, they did it during the weekend when everybody was home. Jack tended toward hyperbole, just like the time he was quoted as saying that he came in and I was crying and I said, 'Please save the company!' I'm not a crier and I would never have said that. I was very happy that Jack was there and I loved working with him, but I never cried to him". Besides where does the urban legend come from isn't set in stone, there are still people debating over who started the rumor.
I do wonder why DC never developed the team, though. Is it just because they don't have interesting, permanent superpowers? It is interesting that DC had prototypes for the FF and X-men in Challengers and Doom Patrol, but I think they were missing Stan Lee. Essentially, it seems obvious that Stan Lee looked at what was popular in the movies and pulp stories and put that in his comics while DC thought they were in the "superhero" business rather than a medium like any other medium out there competing for people's attention and money. You can see parallels between Kirby's early monster and sci-fi comics and the same sort of matinee B-Movies and serials kids and some adults were going to see - the same audience for later Marvel comics. The FF was more like a team of scientists AND monsters you'd see in a movie like The 4-D Man or The Indestructible Man or even earlier Universal movies like Frankenstein and The Invisible Man. The mutants of the X-men were very similar to mutants short stories by J. W. Campbel, A.E. Van Vogt and P. K. Dick that were likely read by Lee and Kirby. People point out that Spider-Man is something like Superboy combined with the back story of the movie The Fly, but if you look at the original Mar-Vell in Captain Marvel, he's essentially a superhero version of Klaatu from The Day The Earth Stood Still with even a version of Gort in the Kree Sentry robot that first appeared in FF. The Hulk's origin with Banner blasted by a Gamma Bomb while trying to save someone is virtually a carbon copy of the opening scene in The Amazing Colossal Man. DC's treatment of Kirby is sorta like a train company that gets an offer to go into airliners by Howard Hughes himself, but they turn him down because their in the "train business." No, you're in the transportation business.
Your videos got a lot better from the first ones, you really put effort into making them! I find very interesting the topics of your videos, very focused on comics history/Trivia and overlooked or forgotten comics.
What exactly would you accept as evidence that they were? It seems clear that kirby reused and refined a previous concept. And that's what "based on" and "precursor to" mean to me. So the answer is yes.
Well, first we have to analyze a little bit. Jack Kirby did mention Challengers amd FF from time to time, claiming they were the same, but both Gary Roth (the interviewer) and Comic Historian Mark Evanier (a close friend of Kirby) are skeptic about these claims, mainly because in his last years Kirby did make some false claims, for example, Kirby said that he laid out the first iron man stories, but Evanier discovered this was false, as Stan Lee, Larry Lieber and Don Heck were the only ones involved in the creation of those first stories. When Jack claimed the challengers became the FF, he misremenbered, as he said that wjen the FF were created, he made the suits identical to the challengers and just added the letter 4, but this is wrong as the FF had no suits until issue 3 and they only got suits because the readers wanted them to have. Besides, marvel archives show that Kirby did not design the 4 in the suits, that was Stan Lee's work.
Very interesting. Great video! I do believe there had to be some inspirations taken from the Challengers of the Unknown for the Fantastic Four, but they’re pretty subtle, so definitely not a rip-off nor a knock-off of the other team.
Excellent as always! I love both teams. The similarities are to frequent for me to not think the later "borrowed" from the prior. Like Challengers did from Doc Savage's team, and so on.
Missing the context here a little bit: The argument that Kirby was obviously involved in the creation in the Fantastic Four is a response to the after-the-fact argument by Marvel (during the Kirby art controversy of the eighties) that Stan was the sole creator or the FF, and he wrote an outline for the first issue which proves this. The counterargument is that there's obviously a lot of Kirby's creative DNA (from the Challs and Boy's Ranch, especially) in the early FF.
Both teams go back to the pulp hero Doc Savage with Stan Lee crediting Doc Savage as inspiration for superheroes consider Doc's own team of the Fabulous Five all gifted individuals and his HQ in Manhatten skyscraper. Great video and enjoyed the format!
Red and Rocky did happen to have 'playful' interactions, similar to Johnny and Ben. (i.e. Red/Johnny would taunt or play pranks on Rocky/Ben in order to rile up the latter, but that could have been an old characterization trope.)
As soon as I read first issue of Fantastic 4 I thought of them as a new version of the Challengers. I always felt that---without getting into minutia---they had a similar feel, with emphasis on fantastic situations and strong SF elements. There is overlap, and inspiration from the Challengers/they are not entirely separate, but they are ---BROADLY related things. To me. I'm sure opinions differ pretty wildly. What I liked about the Challengers is what I liked about the Challengers---at least in early issues. Emphasis on SF adventure, a range of personalities (tho not emphasized to a great degree in the Challengers, but definitely there), impressive background settings---the worlds depicted, both visually and conceptually and similar big-scale set pieces. Kirby is the common link between the two franchises, so this is where there I see a "blurring" between the two. Two different things, but definitely connected on , at least , a visceral level. (I never followed Fantastic 4 after the first 15 or so issues....I moved away from comics about that time. But will never forget those amazing Kirby/Challenger issues---in particular Showcase 11 which I still have, one of the all-time great self-contained SF adventures for a comic book team. My opinion.) As to who was involved in the creation of the teams...I am not an expert. I stopped following the comic world decades ago, but I have the sense, that like the process of making films, collaboration is a big part of it. But, nothing can take away the fact of Kirby's art and the passionate depiction of action, movement and visual invention he brought to the comic page. Both the Challengers and FF deeply shared that quality.
Martin Goodman told Stan Lee to come-up with a superhero team like DC's "Justice league", which was doing well at the company at the time. That was the reason he created the Fantastic Four, which he co-plotted with Jack Kirby. It's a common practice though in comics to filch and recreate another comic company's characters and this is no exception. Comics that appeared after the closure of EC's horror/science fiction comic book company and the introduction of the Comic Book Code, didn't have characters with personalities before Stan Lee began the "Fantastic Four". It was original, even if it was influenced by the earlier comic.
The challengers of unknown failed because Kirby wrote a generic sci-fi characters. The Fantastic Four succeeded because Stan wrote a family who had their own struggles and personalities who happened to be superheroes who go on cosmic adventures.
I wonder if the Rocky as "super-hero" (issue 3) was Kirby's "what if these guys acquired super-powers"...One wonders if he toyed with that idea beyond that one story, and kept it in the back of his mind/didn't decide to explore that---maybe he was told not to go in that direction by the DC powers-that-were---but kept it in mind even after he left that series? (I stopped reading the Challengers immediately after he left. Kirby was integral to the whole Challenger thing. As far as I was concerned at the time they were dead. I have one issue---#11---that is just so "meh" without Kirby's involvement...but these are just my thoughts/very personal, and that's all.)
I think more broadly the FF was a super-powered version of DC's adventure teams, such as the Sea Devils, Rip Hunter and Cave Carson, as well as the Challengers.
Guy named Rocky, Ben grimm is Rocky thing He can turn giant, read can extend himself Rocky can camouflage and shoot flames, self explanatory Chalking these ups to coincidence is pretty far fetched to me
Stan’s plots are totally disregarded in this video and story conferences. The plot for the origin of the FF has been reprinted a few times. Also a story conference between Stan and Jack in the middle of their run, issue 55 has been documented. Also, Dave Wood’s contribution to the Challengers has been lessened. The Challengers have no credits in the actual comics. The Bob Kane agreement doesn’t apply to all of Dave Wood’s writing. Simon and Kirby had precursors to the Challengers, the Space Rocketeers and Simon and Kirby would repeat concepts for other publishers, but as you said not concrete evidence. Otherwise the video is pretty good.
@@AliFareedMC No. Stan said Martin Goodman told him to come with a group like the JLA. Stan wrote a plot which we still have a copy of. Kirby designed them and deviated from the plot. No lie was involved.
I agree with you, but like you say an other vídeo, the ff were a colaboration and who put what in what is imposible to know for sure for lack of documents. I suggest that kirby previus work indicares what he aded like his Tor concept, his previus god héroe and the challengers so at the time he didnt got the credit of cowriter that he deserve. All the admiration for the plots and the pacing went to Stan. Ofcourse his editorial head was the arquitec of the marvel universe but Jack ploted all the epics with supervisión. Also the marvel style of drawing was basicly Jack art style. Low move.
Stating the difference as an argument for not being a copy is just silly. Of course the FF is not a one for one copy of Challengers but the fact is that Kirby kept all his concepts in his head and moved them with him between companies.
It is obvious that Kirby got a lot of ideas from the challenges and used those for the FF. There are a few differences but come on if quack like a duck walks like a duck.....
Kirby based the fantastic four on the challenges of the unknown as Neil Kirby said in a 2010 lawsuit against Marvel that the fantastic four were based on the challenges with the unknown moreover there is more evidence to suggest that Kirby took a lot of inspiration from his older work and applied to his marvel stuff for example journey into mystery 83 had Thor fight the stone man from Saturn and Kirby did versions of the story in House of mystery 85 tales to astonish five and tales to astonished 16 and Kirby did versions of four in avenger comics 75 boy commandos seven and tales of the unexpected 16 the X-Men had several Kirby precursors as Kirby did a mutant story in yellow claw number two he had a monster character called magneto who could Nise metal in strange tales 84 and the avengers had several villains recycle from Old Kirby villains such as the lava man Which Kirby did a similar story tales of unexpected the ringmaster from Incredible Hulk three had a precursor in Captain America comics. Five and individual characters themselves do have precursors or reused ideas such as the hulk with Kirby did a similar story in journey to mystery 79 and iron man which Kirby did a similar story in tales of suspense 16 And Jack Kirby’s original idea for Spider-Man according to Steve Decco was a reused idea of the fly which was published in 1959
I think your video is trying very hard to ignore the obvious. What some forget is DC/National never won their lawsuit against Fawcett, Fawcett just decided to settle the suit and get out of the comic book business. Why did the suit drag on and why do I think Fawcett would have ultimately prevailed if they had continued? There were enough differences between Superman and Captsin Marvel for Fawcett to win. Superman may have inspired the creation of Cap, but Fawcett didn't "copy" Supes! Likewise, the Challengers were different from the FF but you have not debunked the claim that in co-developing the Fantastic Four, Kirby was influenced by the previous "Challengers..." series; you have actually bolstered Kirby's claims!
Fantastic 4 Spider-Man Stan Lee helped create the Fantastic 4. Stan Lee Stan Lee helped create Spider-Man, Therefore, Spider-Man is based off of the Fantastic 4. Illuminati confirmed.
While I've never read an issue of the Fantastic Four, I've at least heard of them and know a little bit about them, whereas I've never even heard of Challengers of the Unknown.
You make the assumption that Kirby plotted everything. Wrong. He often discussed the plots with Lee before drawing the pages, with Lee often acting them out as revealed by Flo Steinberg. This is what Mark Evanier and every other Lee marginalizer doesn't get: until he hired Roy Thomas, Stan Lee wrote every single Marvel comic (up to 18 titles a month at one point) and kept the entire editorial continuity of Marvel comics in his fucking head. He came up with the vast majority of the names for the characters and all the names for the teams, and he is why Marvel readers felt like they were in a club. No Stan Lee means no Marvel. No Kirby means Marvel with the same characters that look different, sans the Silver Surfer, and a few other characters he threw in on a whim.
I should have been much clearer on this point. Which I am in the Who Created The Fantastic Four? video. Lee and Kirby discussed plots. Kirby then drew the plots, breaking down the pages and pacing the story. In essence, plotting the story. I can see how one can conclude this video attempts to marginalize Lee's contribution, but that was certainly not my intent. As I said, I should have clarified this point in the video.
I'm sure Stan was heavily involved in the creation and plotting of the early issues, but over time, like the Spider-Man title, Stan let the artist have more control over the plotting, and later creations that appeared in the title, like the Inhumans or Black Panther, seem to be much more Kirby creations with little input from Stan.
@@StrangeBrainParts I doubt Stan Lee had any developed plots to any extent in mind for any issue of the Fantastic Four or for that matter, most of the issues in any series that Marvel did simply because there is no written script that anyone can find that Stan Lee did period. Let's cut to the chase. Here's the hypocrisy that all Stan lee fanatics who want to take credit away from the artists like Jack Kirby and Steve Ditko spout everytime but don't realize it: If most of early Marvel Comics were truly based off his writing, then show me his completed scripts. Where are the completed scripts that Stan Lee handed to the lowly artists who were just basing everything off what he wrote? There is no way in hell, that Jack Kirby or any other artist could've drawn the story to Stan Lee's "vision" based off discussing ideas with him. They would've needed a script from Stan Lee in order to truly make accurate to "Stan Lee's vision" period. All of the pencil work that the pencilers did was based off the stories and ideas that were virtually what the artists were thinking of at the time. Discussing plot ideas isn't the same as writing. Jack Kirby himself said in an interview he created the superheroes and the stories that he worked on. he says it later in this video: ruclips.net/video/RCoA1yoxino/видео.html I can't remember the exact time but it's there. Again, show me the scripts that the so called master mind Stan Lee wrote. And show me his history of writing and coming up with all of these great ideas before he started to work with legends like Jack Kirby, who has a history of creating amazing stuff by himself or with a partner, such as Joe Simon. It never adds up in favor for Stan Lee. All of this credit given to Stan Lee just takes away credit from the true creators. All of the people who think I'm "bashing" Stan Lee in reality are truly discrediting the artists and essentially "bashing" them.
@@Tellin08 i strongly disagree with this comment. For starters, Mavel did not work that way. The creative process was simple, the writer and the artist had conversations where they came up with the plot, then the artist would draw said story changing elements he felt needed to be changed, later the writer would change elements in the drawn story he felt needed to be changed. Both Flo Steinberg (Marvel's recepcionist at the time) and John Romita Sr. (Who worked alongside Stan Lee and knew both him and Kirby personally) described Stan and Jack having long and creative conversations on the stories they were going to publish. John Romita Sr. In an interview described it: "We used to go out to lunch at the Playboy Club; sometimes four or five of us. We used to have wonderful conversations; I treasure them. You may have heard I used to drive home with them; whenever he was in for a story conference, Stan would drive Jack home. My house was on the way, so they'd drive me home, and then take Jack home. Sitting in the back seat of Stan's convertible with the top down, going up Queens Boulevard, listening to them plot stories, I felt like I was sitting behind Cecil B. DeMille's director's chair. It was the most wonderful thing; I felt like a kid back there". Another problem that a lot of peopme ignore is that Jack did misremenber just like Stan did, for example, Jack claimed once to have been involved in the creation of Iron Man, but Mark Evanier (a close friend of his) investigated said claim and came to the conclusion that it was wrong, and that Iron Man's creation was mostly the work of Stan Lee, Larry Lieber and Don Heck. Kirby also claimed once that he saw Stan Lee crying in the late 50s because Martin Goodman was considering closing the company and was moving out the furniture. Interviewer Gary Groth was skeptic about this anecdote, as Stan Lee was 36 at the time and Kirby described him as an adolescent and that this type of comments from Kirby should be taken with a grain of salt. When asked about this, Stan said: "If they ever moved the furniture, they did it during the weekend when everybody was home. Jack tended toward hyperbole, just like the time he was quoted as saying that he came in and I was crying and I said, 'Please save the company!' I'm not a crier and I would never have said that. I was very happy that Jack was there and I loved working with him, but I never cried to him". Also, what you said about "¿where are the full scripts", you could say the same thing with Roy Thomas or any other Marvel writer or artist, as the Marvel Method didn't stop being used until the 80s and it was a slow process for that to happen.
@@magdavillafuerte Stan lee didn't create any of the iconic characters when he was running marvel. Even spiderman is up for debate if you look at the Silver Spider that Jack created with Joe Simon before working for Marvel. Jack most likely was talking about either that or another idea he had that was building off the silver spider and Stan lee overheard it. Jack did exaggerate things but Stan lee just flat out lied. There were only a few times that Stan discussed things with the artists. There was far too many issues for Stan to have done that with the artists. That's why the marvel method was used which by itself proves that Artists were largely in control back then. Jon Romita Sr for some reason was very partial to Stan but he never said specifically that Stan created all of the heroes that Stan said he did. We can see what the artists created and wrote with their art but there really is nothing but hearsay when it comes to what Stan actually did. In Kirby's original pencils he literally tells all the facets of the story to Stan when he would go in and write the dialogue which he was good at. Not just details but origins of the characters which tell that Kirby was the original creator. Stan was a good writer in that aspect of dialogue but not a creator like he made himself out to be.
Marvel has been stealing from Dc for the last 60 Years. That is an obvious fact. The real truth however is that there is nothing new and all things are reinvented ideas of things that have already existed. In that respect, the more things we can have i guess is the better. Just put some respect on the originals sometimes.
i was an avid Kirby CHALLENGERS fan when they first appeared, and certainly recognized a strong connection to the FF when they first appeared. I just saw the latter as a variation on the CHALLENGERS with super-powers and more personal drama layered on top of them (I always discerned a gradation in the personalities of the CHALLENGERS, tho it was not terribly pronounced. Their skill sets imposed an "attitude" on each of them, and they would occasionally get in a "dig" at each other, plus their facial expressions----the visual aspect---showed a range of reactions that to me was very indicative of their personalities.) To me, FF was obvious a new version of the CHALLENGERS, with some notable similarities and a lot of differences in the details. I feel sure that Stan had read at least some of the CHALLENGERS stories. I had a couple of lunches with Stan in the 80's to talk about projects and kick myself for not asking him about this.
Challengers➡️FF➡️Doom Patrol➡️X-Men
*Ding!*
Yakko: "Shannon Doherty?"
Love that you brought up the Amalgam comic in this.
It is worth noting that Marvel's "What If..." (Issue 36) featured a powerless Fantastic Four, a story that very much had a COTU vibe to it.
I think it's almost certain that you could take any artist and find elements of their early work that are present in the more developed stuff. It would be strange to me if you were unable to find any parallels between any two works Kirby was involved in. Obviously, this seems to be a case where there are more similarities than usual, but it stands to reason that if every separate project is likely to have some similarities, then one of them is going to have more than the others.
Amalgam comics were fun! Not only was there a Challengers/FF amalgam, but there was also an X-Men/Doom Patrol amalgam.
X-Patrol and Challengers of the Fantastic, if i remember correctly. Thanks for reminding me of those fun memories :)
@@davidlow862 There were 2 X-Patrol issues, but the second one was called The Exciting X-Patrol, and not just X-Patrol.
@@macsnafu oh thats right, they had two waves of amalgam, i forgot. thank you :)
I like what Jeph Loeb and Tim Sale did with these characters. It was an interesting way to interpret this particular argument.
I think Ben Grimm was a combination of Ace and Rocky, and Sue is June. Reed was Prof along with Johnny was Red.
You didn't give any arguments to why you say that.
@@RodrigoGarcia-ze5em Ace is a pilot, just as Ben is an expert pilot. Rocky is a pro-wrestler, which isn't an exact shared trait, but represents the physicality and bruteness of the two characters. Ben shares similarities with both Ace and Rocky.
And June, being an intelligent woman who's intelligence is often ignored, while holding the group together, is quite like Sue.
Johnny being Red makes sense too, I'm also acknowledging the name "Red" taking form in the Human Torch's physical appearance. Red is a "circus daredevil", which is similar to Johnny being a daredevil, characteristically speaking, and also represents his interest in motorsports and sportscars.
@@one_man_community Johnny's looks are taken directly from Jim Hammond's, not Red. Beyond that, Rocky doesn't act nor behave like Red and Comparing Sue to June seems disingenous to me. Having read FF comics, i would say Sue has elements from the respective wives of Lee and Kirby. Lee's wife has been described as being very emotional, sweet and obsessed with her looks, while Kirby's wife has been described as strong minded, protective and supportive. I consider these combined traits can be seen in Sue.
I'd argue that it's definitely a spiritual first draft. The differences are huge especially as the series progressed but so many of those early stories were the ones that felt most like rehashes of the Challengers of the Unknown stories, only this time they have superpowers. It's like arguing Repulsion is a rough draft of Rosemary's Baby. Though Rosemary's Baby is based on an original work that is completely separate from Polanski's Repulsion, there are so many elements that lends itself as a spiritual successor. But when looking at Jack Kirby's or any writer/artist's oeuvre, any prior work could be seen as a rough draft for the work that proceeds it. I mean the Forever People feels like a hippie evolution of the Fantastic Four for me. Hell, most of the DC and Marvel comics Kirby did feel like evolutions of his prior works.
I doubt Stan Lee based the FF after the Challengers (seeing as it was Marvel's intent on copying JLA instead) but Kirby definitely did to, as you pointed out, some subconscious level because it's the "comfort crutch" writers lean on to tell the stories they know will do the job. That I feel is an argument I've seen many people make when saying the FF were based on the Challengers. Not as a "one-to-one" self-plagiarism but rather an evolution of an earlier work he did.
That said... Are there ANY similarities between JLA and FF? I wonder if any of those early FF stories ring similar to early JLA stories... Hmmm
I do agree. Some commonality is there between the two works. At the same time, that commonality is also present in other works. If the topes, as I called them, were unique to both teams then I think one could definitively say that one was based on the other. Spiritual first draft may be a good way of putting it. Although, quite subconsciously.
i don't think it is Subconscious, Stan Lee lied about the origin of FF many times
he didn't have consistent story, one time it's Martin Goodman playing Golf with DC Publisher talking about JLA, One time it is his wife who said write a comic for yourself one time it is both story one time he wanted to quit. Jack Kirby came up with the ideas based on his love for Mythology and Science, Stan filled the Balloons based on the drawings, FF is based on Challengers
@@AliFareedMC ye FF is based on the challengers. Jack Kirby took in a lot of inspiration from the challengers to make the fantastic four.
@@AliFareedMC strongly disagree with your argument. The creative process used at marvel comics (the marvel mwthod) was simple, the writer and the artist had conversations where they came up with the plot, then the artist would draw said story changing elements he felt needed to be changed, later the writer would change elements in the drawn story he felt needed to be changed. Both Flo Steinberg (Marvel's recepcionist at the time) and John Romita Sr. (Who worked alongside Stan Lee and knew both him and Kirby personally) described Stan and Jack having long and creative conversations on the stories they were going to publish. John Romita Sr. In an interview described it: "We used to go out to lunch at the Playboy Club; sometimes four or five of us. We used to have wonderful conversations; I treasure them. You may have heard I used to drive home with them; whenever he was in for a story conference, Stan would drive Jack home. My house was on the way, so they'd drive me home, and then take Jack home. Sitting in the back seat of Stan's convertible with the top down, going up Queens Boulevard, listening to them plot stories, I felt like I was sitting behind Cecil B. DeMille's director's chair. It was the most wonderful thing; I felt like a kid back there". Another problem that a lot of people ignore is that Jack did misremenber just like Stan did, for example, Jack claimed once to have been involved in the creation of Iron Man, but Mark Evanier (a close friend of his) investigated said claim and came to the conclusion that it was wrong, and that Iron Man's creation was mostly the work of Stan Lee, Larry Lieber and Don Heck. Kirby also claimed once that he saw Stan Lee crying in the late 50s because Martin Goodman was considering closing the company and was moving out the furniture. Interviewer Gary Groth was skeptic about this anecdote, as Stan Lee was 36 at the time and Kirby described him as an adolescent and that this type of comments from Kirby should be taken with a grain of salt. When asked about this, Stan said: "If they ever moved the furniture, they did it during the weekend when everybody was home. Jack tended toward hyperbole, just like the time he was quoted as saying that he came in and I was crying and I said, 'Please save the company!' I'm not a crier and I would never have said that. I was very happy that Jack was there and I loved working with him, but I never cried to him". Besides where does the urban legend come from isn't set in stone, there are still people debating over who started the rumor.
I do wonder why DC never developed the team, though. Is it just because they don't have interesting, permanent superpowers? It is interesting that DC had prototypes for the FF and X-men in Challengers and Doom Patrol, but I think they were missing Stan Lee. Essentially, it seems obvious that Stan Lee looked at what was popular in the movies and pulp stories and put that in his comics while DC thought they were in the "superhero" business rather than a medium like any other medium out there competing for people's attention and money.
You can see parallels between Kirby's early monster and sci-fi comics and the same sort of matinee B-Movies and serials kids and some adults were going to see - the same audience for later Marvel comics. The FF was more like a team of scientists AND monsters you'd see in a movie like The 4-D Man or The Indestructible Man or even earlier Universal movies like Frankenstein and The Invisible Man. The mutants of the X-men were very similar to mutants short stories by J. W. Campbel, A.E. Van Vogt and P. K. Dick that were likely read by Lee and Kirby.
People point out that Spider-Man is something like Superboy combined with the back story of the movie The Fly, but if you look at the original Mar-Vell in Captain Marvel, he's essentially a superhero version of Klaatu from The Day The Earth Stood Still with even a version of Gort in the Kree Sentry robot that first appeared in FF. The Hulk's origin with Banner blasted by a Gamma Bomb while trying to save someone is virtually a carbon copy of the opening scene in The Amazing Colossal Man.
DC's treatment of Kirby is sorta like a train company that gets an offer to go into airliners by Howard Hughes himself, but they turn him down because their in the "train business." No, you're in the transportation business.
💯
Your videos got a lot better from the first ones, you really put effort into making them!
I find very interesting the topics of your videos, very focused on comics history/Trivia and overlooked or forgotten comics.
Thank you! I have tried to steadily improve over the years. The beginning was...rough, but I'm pretty comfortable with the quality nowadays.
What exactly would you accept as evidence that they were? It seems clear that kirby reused and refined a previous concept. And that's what "based on" and "precursor to" mean to me. So the answer is yes.
Agreed.
Well, first we have to analyze a little bit. Jack Kirby did mention Challengers amd FF from time to time, claiming they were the same, but both Gary Roth (the interviewer) and Comic Historian Mark Evanier (a close friend of Kirby) are skeptic about these claims, mainly because in his last years Kirby did make some false claims, for example, Kirby said that he laid out the first iron man stories, but Evanier discovered this was false, as Stan Lee, Larry Lieber and Don Heck were the only ones involved in the creation of those first stories. When Jack claimed the challengers became the FF, he misremenbered, as he said that wjen the FF were created, he made the suits identical to the challengers and just added the letter 4, but this is wrong as the FF had no suits until issue 3 and they only got suits because the readers wanted them to have. Besides, marvel archives show that Kirby did not design the 4 in the suits, that was Stan Lee's work.
This was a great video, well done.
Very interesting. Great video! I do believe there had to be some inspirations taken from the Challengers of the Unknown for the Fantastic Four, but they’re pretty subtle, so definitely not a rip-off nor a knock-off of the other team.
Excellent as always! I love both teams. The similarities are to frequent for me to not think the later "borrowed" from the prior. Like Challengers did from Doc Savage's team, and so on.
Missing the context here a little bit: The argument that Kirby was obviously involved in the creation in the Fantastic Four is a response to the after-the-fact argument by Marvel (during the Kirby art controversy of the eighties) that Stan was the sole creator or the FF, and he wrote an outline for the first issue which proves this. The counterargument is that there's obviously a lot of Kirby's creative DNA (from the Challs and Boy's Ranch, especially) in the early FF.
Rocky shooting fire and ice sounds like the Human Torch and Iceman from X-Men, another thing that Jack kirby was part of.
Both teams go back to the pulp hero Doc Savage with Stan Lee crediting Doc Savage as inspiration for superheroes consider Doc's own team of the Fabulous Five all gifted individuals and his HQ in Manhatten skyscraper. Great video and enjoyed the format!
I always said that, if you look at some of the skeches, Ben Grimm could have been one of The Challengers!
Lovely video review.
Red and Rocky did happen to have 'playful' interactions, similar to Johnny and Ben. (i.e. Red/Johnny would taunt or play pranks on Rocky/Ben in order to rile up the latter, but that could have been an old characterization trope.)
As soon as I read first issue of Fantastic 4 I thought of them as a new version of the Challengers. I always felt that---without getting into minutia---they had a similar feel, with emphasis on fantastic situations and strong SF elements. There is overlap, and inspiration from the Challengers/they are not entirely separate, but they are ---BROADLY related things. To me. I'm sure opinions differ pretty wildly. What I liked about the Challengers is what I liked about the Challengers---at least in early issues. Emphasis on SF adventure, a range of personalities (tho not emphasized to a great degree in the Challengers, but definitely there), impressive background settings---the worlds depicted, both visually and conceptually and similar big-scale set pieces. Kirby is the common link between the two franchises, so this is where there I see a "blurring" between the two. Two different things, but definitely connected on , at least , a visceral level. (I never followed Fantastic 4 after the first 15 or so issues....I moved away from comics about that time. But will never forget those amazing Kirby/Challenger issues---in particular Showcase 11 which I still have, one of the all-time great self-contained SF adventures for a comic book team. My opinion.) As to who was involved in the creation of the teams...I am not an expert. I stopped following the comic world decades ago, but I have the sense, that like the process of making films, collaboration is a big part of it. But, nothing can take away the fact of Kirby's art and the passionate depiction of action, movement and visual invention he brought to the comic page. Both the Challengers and FF deeply shared that quality.
Martin Goodman told Stan Lee to come-up with a superhero team like DC's "Justice league", which was doing well at the company at the time. That was the reason he created the Fantastic Four, which he co-plotted with Jack Kirby. It's a common practice though in comics to filch and recreate another comic company's characters and this is no exception.
Comics that appeared after the closure of EC's horror/science fiction comic book company and the introduction of the Comic Book Code, didn't have characters with personalities before Stan Lee began the "Fantastic Four". It was original, even if it was influenced by the earlier comic.
The challengers of unknown failed because Kirby wrote a generic sci-fi characters. The Fantastic Four succeeded because Stan wrote a family who had their own struggles and personalities who happened to be superheroes who go on cosmic adventures.
I wonder if the Rocky as "super-hero" (issue 3) was Kirby's "what if these guys acquired super-powers"...One wonders if he toyed with that idea beyond that one story, and kept it in the back of his mind/didn't decide to explore that---maybe he was told not to go in that direction by the DC powers-that-were---but kept it in mind even after he left that series? (I stopped reading the Challengers immediately after he left. Kirby was integral to the whole Challenger thing. As far as I was concerned at the time they were dead. I have one issue---#11---that is just so "meh" without Kirby's involvement...but these are just my thoughts/very personal, and that's all.)
Why is there a long pause before you say "until next time" in all your videos?
I think more broadly the FF was a super-powered version of DC's adventure teams, such as the Sea Devils, Rip Hunter and Cave Carson, as well as the Challengers.
Fascinating! Wish it had lasted for hours!
Guy named Rocky, Ben grimm is Rocky thing
He can turn giant, read can extend himself
Rocky can camouflage and shoot flames, self explanatory
Chalking these ups to coincidence is pretty far fetched to me
Lee being the writer or having editorial say of the book really means nothing when talking about character creation
Were they both based on Doc Savage's troop?
Awesome
Stan’s plots are totally disregarded in this video and story conferences. The plot for the origin of the FF has been reprinted a few times. Also a story conference between Stan and Jack in the middle of their run, issue 55 has been documented. Also, Dave Wood’s contribution to the Challengers has been lessened. The Challengers have no credits in the actual comics. The Bob Kane agreement doesn’t apply to all of Dave Wood’s writing. Simon and Kirby had precursors to the Challengers, the Space Rocketeers and Simon and Kirby would repeat concepts for other publishers, but as you said not concrete evidence. Otherwise the video is pretty good.
how is that not concrete evidence?
Stan Lee lied about coming up with the fantastic four
@@AliFareedMC No. Stan said Martin Goodman told him to come with a group like the JLA. Stan wrote a plot which we still have a copy of. Kirby designed them and deviated from the plot. No lie was involved.
@@AliFareedMC p
Who's that lady you use in all your notes?
I agree with you, but like you say an other vídeo, the ff were a colaboration and who put what in what is imposible to know for sure for lack of documents. I suggest that kirby previus work indicares what he aded like his Tor concept, his previus god héroe and the challengers so at the time he didnt got the credit of cowriter that he deserve. All the admiration for the plots and the pacing went to Stan. Ofcourse his editorial head was the arquitec of the marvel universe but Jack ploted all the epics with supervisión. Also the marvel style of drawing was basicly Jack art style. Low move.
There are a lot of similarities with ACG's 1954 COMMANDER BATTLE AND THE ATOMIC SUB also.
What comes after the current Gaiman run?
Stating the difference as an argument for not being a copy is just silly. Of course the FF is not a one for one copy of Challengers but the fact is that Kirby kept all his concepts in his head and moved them with him between companies.
Yes.
So...the fact that Jack Kirby worked on both series/idea is just co-incidence? Yeah, right...
It is obvious that Kirby got a lot of ideas from the challenges and used those for the FF. There are a few differences but come on if quack like a duck walks like a duck.....
Kirby based the fantastic four on the challenges of the unknown as Neil Kirby said in a 2010 lawsuit against Marvel that the fantastic four were based on the challenges with the unknown moreover there is more evidence to suggest that Kirby took a lot of inspiration from his older work and applied to his marvel stuff for example journey into mystery 83 had Thor fight the stone man from Saturn and Kirby did versions of the story in House of mystery 85 tales to astonish five and tales to astonished 16 and Kirby did versions of four in avenger comics 75 boy commandos seven and tales of the unexpected 16 the X-Men had several Kirby precursors as Kirby did a mutant story in yellow claw number two he had a monster character called magneto who could Nise metal in strange tales 84 and the avengers had several villains recycle from Old Kirby villains such as the lava man Which Kirby did a similar story tales of unexpected the ringmaster from Incredible Hulk three had a precursor in Captain America comics. Five and individual characters themselves do have precursors or reused ideas such as the hulk with Kirby did a similar story in journey to mystery 79 and iron man which Kirby did a similar story in tales of suspense 16 And Jack Kirby’s original idea for Spider-Man according to Steve Decco was a reused idea of the fly which was published in 1959
Yes. But changes and distinctions were made.
That would also make The Invisible Woman a trans person. Points for representation.
I think your video is trying very hard to ignore the obvious. What some forget is DC/National never won their lawsuit against Fawcett, Fawcett just decided to settle the suit and get out of the comic book business.
Why did the suit drag on and why do I think Fawcett would have ultimately prevailed if they had continued? There were enough differences between Superman and Captsin Marvel for Fawcett to win. Superman may have inspired the creation of Cap, but Fawcett didn't "copy" Supes! Likewise, the Challengers were different from the FF but you have not debunked the claim that in co-developing the Fantastic Four, Kirby was influenced by the previous "Challengers..." series; you have actually bolstered Kirby's claims!
It’s more of a trope and different writers.
The "solid, direct link" is Jack Kirby.
Fantastic 4
Spider-Man
Stan Lee helped create the Fantastic 4.
Stan Lee
Stan Lee helped create Spider-Man,
Therefore, Spider-Man is based off of the Fantastic 4.
Illuminati confirmed.
@@elijahfordsidioticvarietys8770 Jack Kirby helped creating spiderman
Bruh…. Seriously??? It’s clear that these are cousins!!!
Dr Doom is a copy and paste of a Challengers villain. Same origin and powers.
#3
While I've never read an issue of the Fantastic Four, I've at least heard of them and know a little bit about them, whereas I've never even heard of Challengers of the Unknown.
Nah. The Fantastic Four was based on DC's Doom Patrol.
Fantastic four came 1961 and Doom patrol 1963..
Yes and X Men were a rip off of the Legion of Doom
You make the assumption that Kirby plotted everything. Wrong. He often discussed the plots with Lee before drawing the pages, with Lee often acting them out as revealed by Flo Steinberg.
This is what Mark Evanier and every other Lee marginalizer doesn't get: until he hired Roy Thomas, Stan Lee wrote every single Marvel comic (up to 18 titles a month at one point) and kept the entire editorial continuity of Marvel comics in his fucking head. He came up with the vast majority of the names for the characters and all the names for the teams, and he is why Marvel readers felt like they were in a club. No Stan Lee means no Marvel. No Kirby means Marvel with the same characters that look different, sans the Silver Surfer, and a few other characters he threw in on a whim.
I should have been much clearer on this point. Which I am in the Who Created The Fantastic Four? video. Lee and Kirby discussed plots. Kirby then drew the plots, breaking down the pages and pacing the story. In essence, plotting the story. I can see how one can conclude this video attempts to marginalize Lee's contribution, but that was certainly not my intent. As I said, I should have clarified this point in the video.
I'm sure Stan was heavily involved in the creation and plotting of the early issues, but over time, like the Spider-Man title, Stan let the artist have more control over the plotting, and later creations that appeared in the title, like the Inhumans or Black Panther, seem to be much more Kirby creations with little input from Stan.
@@StrangeBrainParts I doubt Stan Lee had any developed plots to any extent in mind for any issue of the Fantastic Four or for that matter, most of the issues in any series that Marvel did simply because there is no written script that anyone can find that Stan Lee did period.
Let's cut to the chase. Here's the hypocrisy that all Stan lee fanatics who want to take credit away from the artists like Jack Kirby and Steve Ditko spout everytime but don't realize it: If most of early Marvel Comics were truly based off his writing, then show me his completed scripts.
Where are the completed scripts that Stan Lee handed to the lowly artists who were just basing everything off what he wrote?
There is no way in hell, that Jack Kirby or any other artist could've drawn the story to Stan Lee's "vision" based off discussing ideas with him. They would've needed a script from Stan Lee in order to truly make accurate to "Stan Lee's vision" period.
All of the pencil work that the pencilers did was based off the stories and ideas that were virtually what the artists were thinking of at the time.
Discussing plot ideas isn't the same as writing.
Jack Kirby himself said in an interview he created the superheroes and the stories that he worked on.
he says it later in this video: ruclips.net/video/RCoA1yoxino/видео.html
I can't remember the exact time but it's there.
Again, show me the scripts that the so called master mind Stan Lee wrote. And show me his history of writing and coming up with all of these great ideas before he started to work with legends like Jack Kirby, who has a history of creating amazing stuff by himself or with a partner, such as Joe Simon.
It never adds up in favor for Stan Lee. All of this credit given to Stan Lee just takes away credit from the true creators. All of the people who think I'm "bashing" Stan Lee in reality are truly discrediting the artists and essentially "bashing" them.
@@Tellin08 i strongly disagree with this comment. For starters, Mavel did not work that way. The creative process was simple, the writer and the artist had conversations where they came up with the plot, then the artist would draw said story changing elements he felt needed to be changed, later the writer would change elements in the drawn story he felt needed to be changed. Both Flo Steinberg (Marvel's recepcionist at the time) and John Romita Sr. (Who worked alongside Stan Lee and knew both him and Kirby personally) described Stan and Jack having long and creative conversations on the stories they were going to publish. John Romita Sr. In an interview described it: "We used to go out to lunch at the Playboy Club; sometimes four or five of us. We used to have wonderful conversations; I treasure them. You may have heard I used to drive home with them; whenever he was in for a story conference, Stan would drive Jack home. My house was on the way, so they'd drive me home, and then take Jack home. Sitting in the back seat of Stan's convertible with the top down, going up Queens Boulevard, listening to them plot stories, I felt like I was sitting behind Cecil B. DeMille's director's chair. It was the most wonderful thing; I felt like a kid back there". Another problem that a lot of peopme ignore is that Jack did misremenber just like Stan did, for example, Jack claimed once to have been involved in the creation of Iron Man, but Mark Evanier (a close friend of his) investigated said claim and came to the conclusion that it was wrong, and that Iron Man's creation was mostly the work of Stan Lee, Larry Lieber and Don Heck. Kirby also claimed once that he saw Stan Lee crying in the late 50s because Martin Goodman was considering closing the company and was moving out the furniture. Interviewer Gary Groth was skeptic about this anecdote, as Stan Lee was 36 at the time and Kirby described him as an adolescent and that this type of comments from Kirby should be taken with a grain of salt. When asked about this, Stan said: "If they ever moved the furniture, they did it during the weekend when everybody was home. Jack tended toward hyperbole, just like the time he was quoted as saying that he came in and I was crying and I said, 'Please save the company!' I'm not a crier and I would never have said that. I was very happy that Jack was there and I loved working with him, but I never cried to him". Also, what you said about "¿where are the full scripts", you could say the same thing with Roy Thomas or any other Marvel writer or artist, as the Marvel Method didn't stop being used until the 80s and it was a slow process for that to happen.
@@magdavillafuerte Stan lee didn't create any of the iconic characters when he was running marvel. Even spiderman is up for debate if you look at the Silver Spider that Jack created with Joe Simon before working for Marvel. Jack most likely was talking about either that or another idea he had that was building off the silver spider and Stan lee overheard it.
Jack did exaggerate things but Stan lee just flat out lied. There were only a few times that Stan discussed things with the artists. There was far too many issues for Stan to have done that with the artists. That's why the marvel method was used which by itself proves that Artists were largely in control back then.
Jon Romita Sr for some reason was very partial to Stan but he never said specifically that Stan created all of the heroes that Stan said he did.
We can see what the artists created and wrote with their art but there really is nothing but hearsay when it comes to what Stan actually did. In Kirby's original pencils he literally tells all the facets of the story to Stan when he would go in and write the dialogue which he was good at. Not just details but origins of the characters which tell that Kirby was the original creator. Stan was a good writer in that aspect of dialogue but not a creator like he made himself out to be.
Marvel has been stealing from Dc for the last 60 Years. That is an obvious fact. The real truth however is that there is nothing new and all things are reinvented ideas of things that have already existed. In that respect, the more things we can have i guess is the better. Just put some respect on the originals sometimes.