Mann Shorts decision to quit has nothing to do with the landscape of the RUclips sphere. They were not getting paid from sponsors and the main guy, the one who plays the DM, has to get a regular job.
I think that's my core of it, I don't take on sponsors. I've seen too many others get bit by them, and as mentioned in the video, I'm not doing this for the cash. It's fun to get a little in here and there sure, but that's not my drive.
Just started playing FATE core with my friends ( based in the DND world ) and i have 99999 videos to see and books to read. I don't think it will collapse since there is endless content about tabletop rpg's already.
Yiou know fate is an wholly original system that in no shape or form is based on D&D right? Like D&D is at it;s core in every single edtion RAW... A nartive wargame meant strickly for Co-op play where story crafting like a game of pretend is a large 100% vague and optional aspect of the game... NBut the genus of D&D and nartive wargames is the story just happens which TTRPGs take the idea D&D allows as a throw away etra the RYTeather of the minbd and heavly encoruged homebrew that to be fair almost no game gets right... To the point I';m shocked my OG imposible TT everygame got it rightfrom thr prealpha/... Wghen so many fail to really stand out from nartive wargame modes... Like ever official D&D Edtion and meteral does for better oor for worse... Which to be fair again D&D does have the content to not be a Light TTRPG... Which my deftion is an TTRPG so light on machics and conent it's best reserves for one shots or at best aside campaign to your main game... D&D is only a normal TTRPG not a light one because it has endless RAW content that does cover everything and can easly be ported between edition in etheir direction... Unlike mnost TT games eveb Chess were that is simple not feasible with out a complet rework of that content that only keeps the conent of it... So better then nothing but worse then pure fluff with zero gameplay bagggage... So yeah the D&D only forever blind lyaty comunty ishas completely collapsed in a way I never seen before egeiven how reasblt it has been since it got started nin the 2e era of D&D hand had the major shake up of 4e... So yeah it to slowly goawy over night due extme mismagnt on both Hasbro and WOTC's parts for their entire GDP.. And the reason Hasbro is still on the world bviggest toy maker charters at all... Which if Lego, Funko and Metal are domating the Toy maker latter iun that order and they have masaive gaps between them... So yeah the TTRPG should florus now the D&D dragon has been slain by it rolkling nothing but crit fails...
I personally think this is a contraction rather than a collapse. D&D got very popular, and in essence a bubble was created. Now we're seeing the bubble shrink. I've been in the hobby for decades (40+ years) and I've witnessed this happen a handful of times with the TTRPG hobby as a whole. For as long as I've been watching YT (15 years), this has been dynamic too. Many creators I watched have disappeared for various reasons. It happens. My advice is to ride the tides and you do what you can to get new players into the fold.
I kindav have a leaning towards your view of it as well. I too have been in the rpg scene for a number of decades and you are correct, it has seen it's ebbs and flows.
Tourist in the hobby. People come and go. Some come back. WOTC has said that more people play Dungeons and Dragons than ever before. However, the population of Earth has doubled since 1974. So, yes. More players. How many will play for decades?
What I don't understand is that Guy's farewell video was pushed to me in recommendations despite me never having watched any of his videos before so it appears RUclips was still promoting his channel after all!!
I was following Guy since his beginning and the last few years his vids have been showing up much less in my feed. I heard someone say, this is happening because we watch RUclips off our home page, and our feed is led by the algorithm not fed by our subscriptions.
I did the experiment for you and watched the video at the end... let's see if it works. I want to ask my viewers to watch 2 of my videos in a row, but I'm nervous
@@gamemastersok, after I watched this video twice and another video, and subscribed, when I went to my homepage and hit refresh, one of your videos I hadn't seen was on top.
interesting... I did the same, actually watched three of yours (commented on two), thumbed up all of them, hit refresh and nothing. BUT.. I can say that I've been doing this experiment for about a week now (since last friday) with other creators and I'm only now starting to see their vids hit my recommended page..
Considering the history of dnd's community from its beginnings in the 70s up to now, this isn't new. If anything this is the third time we see a shift in the dnd community creating subsectors based on certain versions/eras. The first time is when 3e is starting to become a thing, some people prefer the TSR versions of dnd and hence came the OSRs (the retroclones specifically, those based on vibes like Troika or the aspect of kriegspiel came later on). Second time? Pathfinder's inception in the transition to 4e. People who loved 3e but not not wanting to transition to the next version continued their adventures thanks to pathfinder which not only is compatible with 3/3.5 material but even fixed the edition's issues. The third time is 5e compatibles, whether it was the ogl or some other desire to play 5e in different methods we got things like tales of the valiant, shadowdark, draw steel and level up 5e (which is worth remembering that 5e compatible takes are a thing long before the ogl). For me, i enjoy 5e as its the edition that i can get behind in and ive tried pathfinder 2e and a few of the osr offerings. With a few exceptions, rather two of them, i can't see myself commit to either pathfinder 2e or the osr in general. I also fell in love with the forgotten realms setting as it fits the fantasy i like the most that is not grimdark or dark fantasy. I dont plan to leave dnd but at the same time im not loyal to corporations or even content creators, plus i'll pick what i like and use them for whatever I play as i am a big fan of modding games.
I'm almost the opposite in that I like Pathfinder 2 more, because any question I need to ask is more easily answered by either direct RAW, or inference from another rule thats similar. And even if I end up ignoring or changing the rule, its very easy to understand how an existing rule fits into the larger system, thus making it easier to predict the consequences of said changes. In my mind only a hand full of rule systems are integrally tied to their setting. And from experience, 5e is the most difficult to adapt other settings TO, because it already does such a poor job of defining itself. 5e is a very macro system. One of the hardest things is to convince DMs and Players alike, that 5e doesn't need you to roll for everything. Yet it makes you FEEL like you should be rolling for everything, because most of the rules are about when and how many dice to roll, and how often per day you can do it.
this is largely my take on it as well. I too will take parts of other systems and mod them into what works best at my table. It's less of a "pick and choose" and more of a "oh now THAT'S a cool idea! I'ma use it!"
"How To Be A Great GM" is stopping most D&D content because when he asked a RUclips representative why he wasn't getting promoted, the rep told him that RUclips was no longer going to push his channel and then they flat out asked what his next channel was going to be. He said he would still put out the occasional D&D video, but was going to concentrate on two new channels; one for Star Trek and the Star Trek RPG, and another that will find interesting travel destinations and describe how they could make great adventures.
that's the part that doesn't make any sense to me. Why would anyone at youtube openly tell anyone that they were no longer going to specifically push their channel or that type of content. There's something there that just doesn't "click".
@@gamemastersThe reason is they know he can generate interest but his old channel was not getting a lot of views. They want people to see you posted and instantly watch and interact. He had that going on before but it had stopped so they just were being honest - the algorithm was not going to keep serving his videos.
It's a sticky game! I can't see my current table going away from D&D any time soon. Like you said, we use the system to make it what we want, and we are doing exactly that.
This video just showed up on my homepage fee as a recommendation and I figured I'd watch it. I'm going to go watch that second video and see if I can help out slightly. You just got a new subscriber by the way 🙂.
interesting thoughts and points, it sadly is true that it all comes down to the algorithm at the end of day. But as another channel myself giving DnD videos a go I remain hopefully, for me it's fun and if anyone watches and is helped by my videos I'm happy. Can't wait to see your views on the new monster manual when it comes out, great video as always!
@ I thought you were going to say it’s a bitch haha. Thank you that would honestly mean a lot to me (I wouldn’t recommend my latest, as sadly the focus and colour balance is off, but didn’t realise till I was editing and I had no time to reshoot) but I would love to hear your opinions on some of my ideas.
@@badmojo0777 Honestly, its funny that for some reason I feel like those sorta things exist in **every** form of entertainment-based community one way or another.
Funny how Professor DM released the video about how clickbait was acceptable after he got backlash for outright stating that WotC/Hasbro was relinquishing their hold over D&D IP - something just about everyone wants. It transpired, in the video, that WotC were simply shutting down some failed money-grubbing D&D App. The comments section was damn furious, but then I guess that's the point, more comments = more YT algorithm love.
@@Ryotbh PDM is a man of imense experience and skill.. his insight is likely one of the most complete and valuable on youtube... and hes doing clickbait videos with is the perview of lesser content creators. thats why im mad, we need more coverage of other games, we need more coverage of how to DM, we need more coverage of OSR and history.. not a picture of someone looking gobsmacked and " D&D gets worse OMG "
@@bobbobbing4220 the difference between Discourse's clicbait and prof DM clickbait is that Discourse is always doom and gloom and it takes her 3/4 of the video to get to the point, while profDM is far more straight forward and very little padding. Why i had to unsubscribe from Discourse, cause her clickbait became tedious and videos way way overpadded
@@Ryotbh with clickbait you get attention, but not a community. and the people that came because of attention will leave when something different gets it. Its really not as clever as the numbers make people think
I think D&D is contracting. The pop culture moment brought on by Critical Role, Stranger things, and the Pandemic is passing. Real hobbyist will continue to play, and it may grow slowly in some demographics. But I think it will become less popular over time. It may never return to the cultural obscurity from before the release of 5e, but I don't see it remaining a household name for another decade. And in this context, I purposefully use "D&D" in the "Cleanex" context. Where the wind blows official D&D, the hasbro product, it will also blow the TTRPG industry. Channels like How to be a Game Master, Mann Shorts, and Web DM basically ran out of interesting content to make because it had all been said and done, they produced sooo many videos, so frequently, for so long. And their formats were somewhat narrow, which I don't mean as an insult. Webb DM and HTBaGM were two of the best Dungeon Master centric channels. And Mann Shorts was hilarious. But gowth inevitably slows, and all good things must come to an end.
That's.. a really good point and view. The "fans" of pop-culture are likely leaving because the immediate interest has waned and they have moved on to other things.. Whereas those of us that are in the hobby and have been in the hobby.. will.. always _be_ in the hobby. A most excellent observation!
Great to hear you're staying on RUclips and also great to hear you'll be doing some 2nd edition content as no-one is really doing that. The OSR (and 1st edition) gets pushed and 5th edition gets pushed with the editions in-between rather neglected. That's a shame as 2nd edition is my preferred version to play & DM.
I think some part is that the audience out grew it.. None of my players had played an rpg before the crit role craze and they wore me down into adding a one shot for game for night. I did 2E because I still had everything and we literally did a bottle cap game . They all listened to several D&D creators because it was new and they wanted to hear ideas and stories. Now we have a player who has 3 3d printers and turned his sons room into a mini display room, custom table and still play two to three times a month. But nobody really watches or talks about the creators anymore because they have their own ideas and stories in our world. I have bought several of the kick started books to steal ideas but have not spent a dime on new official D&D material since TSR was still stamped on the books It is is a weird game/business model, the better you are at creating the core idea the more likely your audience is going to need you less and less.
you have an excellent point too. I think a lot of it is exactly as you state; some of the audience has certainly outgrown the product and have moved on to other things, where other parts of the audience are simply wanting to develop their own thing for their game. I'd agree 100% with all of that.
I would love to see more "fixes" for WotC related content similarly to how you did for Vecna. Was a great resource for a game I am running. Would love to see what else you would recommend for other adventures.
I agree, that was a LOT of fun for me to do and show everyone my step by step on how I did it. It's something that I do for almost any given adventure that comes out (but only so that it works better for my players at my table), but.. I'm 100% not opposed to doing this with future products...
I think that D&D 5e and I have simply grown apart with time. We had a nice run together, but we are not the same people now as we were when we first got together in 2014. What I want in my games is not what WotC is offering me. It's fine if we separate. D&D 5e no longer sparks joy in me, and there are so many other great games out there that either I enjoy playing or want to play.
and THAT is an important thing to keep in mind. There is nothing at all wrong with having lost interest. That's how I got with the Walking Dead. In the beginning it was rock and roll and solid as hell. Then it got to be a drag, the storyline went on for too long. Had they tightened up the storyline and made progress, I think that would have been enough to keep my interest. I've not watched any of the spinoff shows because I just no longer care. So.. I get it, if something fails to hold someone's interest, why stick with it? I think what maintains our interest (at my table) is that we are all actively contributing to the story, for us, it's all about homebrew. We don't use the material from the books so much as a few concepts and ideas, but then we make it all our own.
My Friday FLGS has lost an Adventure League DM who is also a player due to the changes. However, my Wednesday FLGS players has grown. So 6E um 5.5E um 5.24E has not harmed the general community locally. As to content creators leaving or not getting clicks. The Algorithm and burn out is thing. Crazy Conspiracy today is facts in six months.
For my part at least I have been watching less videos because DnD is currently in a edition switch and the videos are mostly rule based. The fun times on youtube were when campaigns were dropping. Like I remember all the excitement for Descent into Avernus (for example). First you had the speculation of what would be in there, and then there would be the non-spoiler reviews, and then if you weren't planning on playing it as a player (or were the DM) there was the spoiler review. After that came the video of recommended changes. Those sorts of videos are all story related and you'd often think, "Oh man! Those are some great ideas!" Vecna Eve of Ruin was another example and though it was disappointing the tweaks and fixes on this channel and others were great! So, looking forward to when 5.5e gets back to that sort of content production...
Aye! I'm in that same boat. The rules are simply that, just rules. I most certainly prefer diving into the lore and storylines and seeing what I can do to tweak them and make them better. That said.. tho... I suppose the same could be done with the rules.. But.. I think I'd rather present that out as "homebrew" options.
The tradition of D&D and TTRPGs persists and is alive & well! Players are splintering, finding different games like Shadowdark, PF2e, Daggerheart, Draw Steel
No, your last theory is not plausible but RUclips's practise of not promoting videos on channels that they assess to have peaked is well known. RUclips is a cruel master and algorithm induced burnout is very common.
@@rpgchronicler Well! in principle they could but while I dabbled in RUclips creation, and streaming on Mixer when it existed, I never looked in to twitch all that much. I know nothing about how twitch makes its money.
@@gamemasters I think it is based on new viewers that klick through and watch the video and the number of them that subscribe. I am pretty sure I have seen someone do an analysis of it but not sure who. Also, they do not actually kill a channel but they stop promoting it to new viewers. Along with their habit of not notifying subscribers (even ones that click the bell) if they skip a couple of videos, that will put the channel on a path of permanent decline.
I don't think D&D is "on the brink of collapse" as a brand, hobby, or community. However, I _do_ think that people need to learn the difference between "booms or bubbles" of interest, and the sustained market (not just economic market, but also the "market of public interest and attention"). Trends come and go in society, and this describes when something picks up ("boom") amongst people ("consumers", "demographics") who had no-to-low engagement with that thing beforehand, but it does NOT typically describe or reference those who were "pre-boom" consumers engaging that thing. (For silly music references: certain styles and genres of music might "trend" for a summer or even a decade, but this rarely means that the "trend" is entirely new, but rather, that it is reaching "new audiences", hence becoming a *popular* trend, meaning engaging with those beyond its traditional market reach). Those music trends do not (cannot, will not ever) be sustained over time, because "the populous" is not readily pinned down in that way--- these surges of interest (trends, booms) bring more people into the fold of interested consumers than that given "thing" had prior to the boom, but when the tides of trending popularity recede, the numbers will ALWAYS go down. That isn't "failure" or "collapse", that just means that the actual core demographic of that thing's consumer base is being revealed (typically expanded from where it was pre-boom). The receding tides are the "bubble bursting", e.g. the end of the boom, but not the collapse of the core thing. A lot of people mistake "popular boom" for "core market", which is where these problems come up: whether a RUclips content creator or a Hasbro shareholder, seeing "number go down" charts and analytics is sad, because as a society we're conditioned toward a hyper-masculine flex-and-gains approach to maths, which is hilariously not how math or economics work, but even economists have opted to abandon their discipline in favor of rock-hard-abs power-lifting RAWR approaches to the numbers. Perpetual gain is not natural, normal, or sustainable; growth-only models are ALWAYS careening toward bubble-burst dynamic. To those whose financial security (or expectations of sustained future growths) are tied to these games or this brand, the "receding tides of popular trending consumer engagement" (e.g. a microcosmic recession within this industry specifically, more on this in a moment) this absolute can feel/look like a collapse. And it sucks. And it genuinely hurts. It is genuinely good during periods of popular expansion (meaning "sales and engagement or otherwise financially benefitted clicks-and-likes" into larger demographics than the core niche market) that creators get that extra padding of financial windfall for their efforts, and new opportunities to create and expand what/how creative process works in that market--- but these popular trends are tidal, like tourism for a region which is popularized only for a given season or even for a finite period of time follow, I dunno, a widely celebrated blockbuster film or best-selling book featuring that region/location, etc. Booms can hurt the core market (those who were there before the boom and those who will remain after the boom) by giving the often encouraged/modeled "false sense of sustained growth" which encourages people (creators, companies, et al) to extend further into that given market in anticipation of continued returns. There is not a "collapse" coming, but their absolutely *is* a D&D (and TTRPG in general) recession occurring: an overall decline in popular trend-spending on/in this sector. Why? Because outside of its niche core demographic (and we *are* a niche hobby or intersection of hobbies!) the popular add-ons will have moved on to other hobbies or interests, as life happens, and they age out of pandemic lockdown/sheltering inspired routines and interests. We can continue to cite Stranger Things for its influence on popularizing D&D (nostalgia sells) till the cows come home, but the real boom "ignition" was always a small sampling of high-production-quality real-plays (CR, Dim20) which demonstrated for newcomers "how to play" and "what is play" without needing to open a book, and then the perfect storm of the pandemic lockdown giving people a real-life need for things to do with themselves to stay connected, sane, and have a little bit of magic to inspire them through the darkest of times many could have imagined. Recessions occur when trend-spending declines---- in this case, the core demographic who was ALREADY "the TTRPG community" will mostly still be here, with some new faces who joined up in just the last 5-10 years. That receding popular interest is not the same as a collapse, because the share of the market which recedes was never ACTUALLY the market--- they were tourists, seasonally occasioning themselves in our hobby and our game, and as "gatekeepy" as that sounds, I really don't mean it that way. But having lived in tourist-trap towns, it is a REALLY important element to consider: the locals (residents, consumers) and the local businesses (long-term fixtures) can always spot the difference between them ("the core population") and the seasonal traffic (consumer boom, yay local money, boo lack of parking and increased litter/noise complaints) and "tourism pop-up businesses" who open up shop specifically along with (and as a part of) that tidal surge. When the tidal surge leaves, there'll always be SOME who stick around: a business or two who started up in that context, but who found a home amongst the locals ("the core") or even came up through/from it, and further, some tourists WILL seek to set down roots and stick around. But the loss of boom-based traffic surge is not a "collapse of the local main street economy" unless the locals make decisions during the boom which expect it to never recede, never surrender, higher-further-faster-baby--- and as OG stewards of the hobby, serving to the needs both of the core folk who were here before AND those newcomers who may choose to stick around, I'd love to see more creators actually speaking of these trends with a sense of realism (recession vs collapse, trends and booms and bubbles vs drama and hyped up economic eschatological finality). Click-bait titles and thumbs to appease the algorithm, and even the algorithm itself, aren't the issue (and it is fine and important for creators to make the platform concessions they need to in order to sustain their base), but I really would love to see the community discuss itself (as a market, as a consumer base, as a niche hobby) with a sense of perspective informed by the real world we live in, and NOT sound as deluded as the shareholders who want "number go up" growth in perpetuity, because that simply isn't how any of this works (and at a practical level, everyone knows it, but almost nobody is saying it). When did reality-check basic foundational observation become "the quiet part"?
that's actually a really good observation. With the pandemic we saw a lot of people stuck at home and D&D was an easy game to play online. Add to that the popularity of Stranger Things, Critical Roll, etc, and it drew lots of folks in to it that would have otherwise never looked at it. Time has now passed and those folks are finding interest elsewhere. We've seen this happen with other aspects of the gaming industry as well, ccgs specifically. The initial boom of them in the 1990's saw hundreds of new ccg games pop up and all made some mad money initially. Then it became too much so players had to focus on a small few core games. You are 100% correct in pointing out the difference between "booms" and "bubbles". In fact.. I'll add to that a little in that you can also have a "boom" within the "bubble". Most excellent observation and I thank you for commenting!
@@gamemasters just into my first cup of coffee here, so I apologize if any of my reply came across as problematic or tonally negative--- your treatment in this video (as in most of your videos!) was excellent, and I appreciate your approach to these things! I have a bad habit of writing accidental walls of text replies before my brain's tone-registry has properly booted up--- so I hope I didn't inadvertently come across as harsh or challenging. I just would love to see discussions that hone in on cultivating the core demographic--- what do the main street business and locals do once the tourism season is quieting down, and the market "goes back to base". It can be incredibly disconcerting, discouraging, when our society models only this idea that "growth must be achieved and sustained, or else, FAILURE", which simply isn't a real thing and never has been (nor could be). Thanks for another great and insightful episode. (Also: I clicked to a second video of yours, after, as requested. It didn't change my "Home" recommendations. I typically have one or two videos of yours, sometimes recent and sometimes not, hovering in the first two lines of recommendations--- but refreshes or returns to home intermittently drop them in favor of people I've never heard of, and wouldn't typically click on. I don't pretend to know how the algorithm works....)
I recently watched Zee Bashew's "Are there Dinosaur Bones in space?" again. In it Tobo Rotano teaches us that, whenever we see a headline that's phrased as a question, the answer is no. Is DnD dying? No. Anyway, time to watch the video.
WoTc and Hasbro? Probably, but the D&D Community? Unlikely....well, unless we unleash WWIII this year then, yeah, I suspect the D&D Community will be in for a bad time. Twilight 2000 anyone?
gosh, can you imagine if it got into the hands of folks that were passionate about the brand instead of trying to use the brand as a means of licensing? But.. then again.. I'm not a billion dollar entity that making such a decision would (or wouldn't) have an impact.
AS of late I really have stopped clicking on a lot of the you tube videos that have click bait titles or the videos that tend to lean towards complaining. So are they getting less views because of content I would agree. Maybe presenting fun different content might have helped? Still would need to be DnD based ofc since most people play that. Problem is I stopped clicking their videos because I seen some that I would not watch then I would miss the ones I should watch.
I have a secondary theory too.. Take a look at some of the channels that have left or have seen declining numbers. The content is all over the map, live plays + reviews + interviews + rants = the algo has no clue what to do with it all so it spreads thin. At least in part..
do this, ask a D&D diehard "why do you like D&D?" they will list reasons, but these qualties are inherant to tabletop rpgs inherantly (hang with friends, cool stories, clicky clack math rock) people dont like D&D, they like TTRPGS and only really know D&D.... if the players had to pay to play like the GMs do that tune would change REAL fast.
I'll agree with you, but would also add that it's the familiarity of d&d, but possibly too the investment (of both time and money) and I'd be willing to bet a donut that WotC banks on that investment.
@ We are at a critical moment where the transition from 5E to "One" represents a clear point of weakness in the brand, one that other systems should seize as an opportunity. Hasbro has demonstrated an almost cartoonish level of greed and villainy over the last few decades, culminating in its recent, highly publicized actions. Anyone paying attention should realize that "One" is shaping up to be 4E on steroids-designed to nickel-and-dime players at every turn. My only hope is that the community isn’t so entrenched or conditioned that they fail to recognize this. It would be a shame to see people either cling to the system out of habit or abandon the hobby altogether.
The truth is if you are reading this message you are more into the fanatic element of D&D then the vast majority that play the game. If you know what everything about the OGL debacle you are in that upper 10%. If you know about the Pinkertons and the MTG fiasco then you are in the top 5% of in the know. The OGL only broke the numbers at that time because it directly would affect kickstarters and that made everyone take note. Bottom line D&D will keep going and likely slowly slow down as a trend as it always was going to and become the niche hobby it usually is soon.
RUclipsrs quiting DnD videos has nithing to do with DnD decline. What is really causing a decline is the youtubers making it a theratical production. Chritical roles ginny di etc.... that making a it seem like if you are not a thesbian you are not playing DnD.
yeah, I'm not into theatrics. YES we get goofy and in character at the table and on occasion I'll get goofy with my videos, but my core focus is to share experience. I suppose that's what others do as well, but I'm more of a... "let's get to the point" as opposed to maintaining popups and sliding elements on the screen. I use that stuff but only to help sell the point and not to keep someone's interest.
I don't think these channels ending has anything to do with this hobby(or any other). Making videos on this platform(or any other platform) is not a viable long-term strategy for most people. It takes an enormous amount of work and there's no guarantee that it'll be enough to pay the bills. This is kind of a reset to what RUclips used to be. No one was getting paid to make videos in the beginning. They did it for fun or to share their knowledge and experience. Yes, a few people have gotten lucky enough to do this as a full-time job, but it almost always causes burnout. I'm grateful for the creators who put out the free content I enjoy. However, I understand that they've got bills to pay. That's why so many of them rely on Patreon, sponsors, or other similar things to fund the videos. Otherwise, this isn't a sustainable business model. And I doubt it ever will be.
agreed. I think that's partly why I've not suffered from burn out from it, I'm not doing it to pay the bills.. well.. to be fair.. some bills _do_ get paid from this.. but still.. my core drive is to have fun.
Man don't close up shop ! Your videos give me and others something to look forward to Remember that one time your were in a crawlspace !? Dude that is entertaining
There was an absolute boom in the hobby around COVID and 5.50th may recover a bit of that. And I mean, Hasbro has money but could they really have bribe RUclips money?
you bring up a very good point. I agree that it's simply a theory (the yt to promote only wotc stuff) and I DO have my doubts on it.. but.. I'm collecting a small bit of data and comparing to what I heard someone say today..
hahahahahahaha fair point BUT.. those are things that the game company itself _didn't_ do; in this case, Hasbro/WotC made the decision that it would be okay to license out the brand for gambling.
If your quitting DnD to spite WOTC your just hurting yourself and others in the space by sabotaging a perfectly good legacy game that’s made, at its core, by nerds like us with a pure love for the game first and foremost.
I.. can partially agree. This too is from my own experience, but of those that I've spoken with that left the game did so because of hasbro or wotc business decisions and not purely because of the game itself.
Now I think it is not WotC's fault that D&D books are so bad, it is Crawford and all of the other incompetents that work there. The corporation would do well to get rid of them and bringing back the old staff.
I don't get this criticism. So I don't know the man other than his Todd Kendrick interviews, and I neither love nor hate him.. he's the system lead for the most popular version of D&D ever (and I own 2e, 3.5, 4, 5th) ... so obviously he's doing something right? Surely? What is the hate for?
I don't know that I'd agree 100% here. 5e has been super popular and this new 5.5e (okay okay, 2024 5e) is looking to be solid and improves upon what was out from 10 years ago. True, these last two years have seen some unusual content produced, but I'm thinking that that's more along the lines to "lets just put something out" while others were working on the new core material.
@@AAron-gr3jk If by the most popular version of D&D you mean the 2014 5e, then he is not the rules developer and he is co-lead with Mike Mearls. In the early stages of 5e, both Mearls and Crawford clarified rules and contradicted each other. To my mind, it is clear that the one who understood the rules is Mike Mearls, not Crawford. I don't hate him, I just think he is incompetent.
@@gamemasters That company hates gamers, just like happened on 1983 ATARI's downfall. The suits in charge hate/despise us, thinking we should send them our money just becaue, instead we're forcing them to """work""".
@@gamemasters No, it didn't popup at all. I was using an Android Phone if that helps with troubleshooting. Sometimes RUclips throws ads in immediately at the end and covers things up. But this didn't happen. Anyway I went ahead and hit your page and watched a few videos, not sure if it will help with your test. I wonder how much someone "playing all" in a playlist affects the data.
@@gamemasters The way I see it; if WotC can't create any kind of appealing content for us fans, WE should do so ourselves. By that; I mean that WE should create our own campaigns, books, movies, minis and so on. It HAS been done before, several times. One such example I can think of is the Field Guide to Floral Dragons, which is a book that got fully funded via Kickstarter
Wow, I do believe that D&D is in trouble and it is teetering on the brink of going back into obscurity. Because I believe it has pro nor wizards of the coast are going to last much longer if they continue to go down the road that they’re going because Hasbro wants to turn DND into a 100% electronic product and you can’t do that with Dungeons & Dragons I mean you can add Types of electronic components to it. I’m sure but to take everything that is DND and squeeze it into the electronic realm. You’re going to lose a lot of people include if they keep going down, this woke path that they have chosen you’re going to lose a lot of people and they’re losing. Lots of people will not die and dragons will not die. It will just disappear from the mainstream and people will still play, but it will be in private games in homes where the likes Hasbro and wizards of the coastcannot touch them and cannot stop them from creating their own rules and taking the best out of each set of dungeons and dragons and leaving the rest
I'm working on a video right now.. that shows some direct evidence that they are not going down a "woke path". Should be an interesting video, but it'll be out (hopefully) next week.
@09:50 That as my exact first thought with OneD&D, the VTT and Microtransactions being pushed by WoTC - the strategy may be to simply get YT to downgrade OST/OSR/BobTTRPG channels in a way to starve them out (and let OneD&D be there to fill the hole). This makes sense (from a WoTC perspective) since it's about increasing revenue. However - it's all about the love of the game, so in that sense, such a move will backfire; people will still make videos on TTRPG. Those will always show up in a standard search engine.
heh except that standard search engine.. is... run by google.. who owns youtube. so.. :( Best way to market is by word of mouth really. It is a sad thing when a content creator feels pushed out, I don't like that at all because there are some good ones. BUT.. for whatever it's worth, I'll keep pushing out videos because I find it fun, even if it's for an audience of one.
The videos whining about WotC seem to do fine. Theres a "screw WotC" bandwagon that is doing really well. A channel called discourse and dragons gets recommended to me all the time and i absolutely abhor that channel and its constant whining and complaining. I enjoy fun ideas and theory crafting in the game. Not all the complaining vids. Ive always been a fan of your videos and will continue to be for as long as you provide them.
hmm.. I've been experimenting with this; I've found that watching two videos back to back from the same creator only sometimes hits that recommend space; but when I watch and give a thumbs up, that triggers it almost immediately. Over the past week I have been doing this test, but also noticed that some of the channels are only now popping up as being recommended. I swear.. I'll never understand the algo..
I can't disagree with you more strongly about this "new edition". It's awful. Pathetic and, frankly, I wouldn't buy the new books if they were five to dollars, each Glad you are not quitting but... I'm really not sure how you see any value in the new books. I'm a 45 year GM who owned a game store and I have run many systems... it's not like I don't know good from crap... and "5.5e" or whatever... is crap. There's a very good reason the video views are dropping. The market is oversaturated and too many Dungeon Tubers all want to fill the same niche. That's why it's failing. Is D&D losing popularity? Yes. That's to be expected. If anyone believed it was going to stay at pandemic level indefinitely... I have some swamp land in Florida to sell them. That's not a bad thing. The worst thing that ever happened to D&D was it going mainstream.
I hope that Elon Musk rescues TSR from WotC and restores it with their product line in Lake, Geneva, WI. Shame on WotC for their libelous warning labels on vintage TSR products.
I don't see Musk moving to Wisconsin. And I've not seen any additional rumors out about him wanting it (like what we did see with twitter). Was likely just an off the cuff remark.
conspiracy theories are fun to explore, but scary at the same time. I'm not sure that I'm going to put too much stock into it, mainly because I continue to see fantastic traction on my videos.
Great to hear you're staying on RUclips and also great to hear you'll be doing some 2nd edition content as no-one is really doing that. The OSR (and 1st edition) gets pushed and 5th edition gets pushed with the editions in-between rather neglected. That's a shame as 2nd edition is my preferred version to play & DM.
"Im not Leaving" -GameMasters
"Oh YES you ARE!!!!" - RUclips & Hasbro
*door knocks*
"Hello?" -GameMasters
"Pinkertons!" -The Pinkertons
...and we never saw GameMasters again...
Lol okay okay... that might have me pivot....
See? Everyone has a weakness...
...except me, I fear nothing! Not even that tiny Grim that lives our house! LMFAO!
I know what you fear.. but I won't speak it aloud...
@@gamemasterspinkertons would need to send backup if they want me to stop
Mann Shorts decision to quit has nothing to do with the landscape of the RUclips sphere. They were not getting paid from sponsors and the main guy, the one who plays the DM, has to get a regular job.
I think that's my core of it, I don't take on sponsors. I've seen too many others get bit by them, and as mentioned in the video, I'm not doing this for the cash. It's fun to get a little in here and there sure, but that's not my drive.
Just started playing FATE core with my friends ( based in the DND world ) and i have 99999 videos to see and books to read. I don't think it will collapse since there is endless content about tabletop rpg's already.
that's kindav how I see it as well. I just cannot see this landscape caving in on itself.
Yiou know fate is an wholly original system that in no shape or form is based on D&D right? Like D&D is at it;s core in every single edtion RAW... A nartive wargame meant strickly for Co-op play where story crafting like a game of pretend is a large 100% vague and optional aspect of the game... NBut the genus of D&D and nartive wargames is the story just happens which TTRPGs take the idea D&D allows as a throw away etra the RYTeather of the minbd and heavly encoruged homebrew that to be fair almost no game gets right... To the point I';m shocked my OG imposible TT everygame got it rightfrom thr prealpha/... Wghen so many fail to really stand out from nartive wargame modes... Like ever official D&D Edtion and meteral does for better oor for worse... Which to be fair again D&D does have the content to not be a Light TTRPG... Which my deftion is an TTRPG so light on machics and conent it's best reserves for one shots or at best aside campaign to your main game... D&D is only a normal TTRPG not a light one because it has endless RAW content that does cover everything and can easly be ported between edition in etheir direction... Unlike mnost TT games eveb Chess were that is simple not feasible with out a complet rework of that content that only keeps the conent of it... So better then nothing but worse then pure fluff with zero gameplay bagggage... So yeah the D&D only forever blind lyaty comunty ishas completely collapsed in a way I never seen before egeiven how reasblt it has been since it got started nin the 2e era of D&D hand had the major shake up of 4e... So yeah it to slowly goawy over night due extme mismagnt on both Hasbro and WOTC's parts for their entire GDP.. And the reason Hasbro is still on the world bviggest toy maker charters at all... Which if Lego, Funko and Metal are domating the Toy maker latter iun that order and they have masaive gaps between them... So yeah the TTRPG should florus now the D&D dragon has been slain by it rolkling nothing but crit fails...
I personally think this is a contraction rather than a collapse. D&D got very popular, and in essence a bubble was created. Now we're seeing the bubble shrink. I've been in the hobby for decades (40+ years) and I've witnessed this happen a handful of times with the TTRPG hobby as a whole. For as long as I've been watching YT (15 years), this has been dynamic too. Many creators I watched have disappeared for various reasons. It happens. My advice is to ride the tides and you do what you can to get new players into the fold.
I kindav have a leaning towards your view of it as well. I too have been in the rpg scene for a number of decades and you are correct, it has seen it's ebbs and flows.
Tourist in the hobby. People come and go. Some come back.
WOTC has said that more people play Dungeons and Dragons than ever before. However, the population of Earth has doubled since 1974. So, yes. More players. How many will play for decades?
What I don't understand is that Guy's farewell video was pushed to me in recommendations despite me never having watched any of his videos before so it appears RUclips was still promoting his channel after all!!
heh yeah.. that is odd.
Same here!
I was following Guy since his beginning and the last few years his vids have been showing up much less in my feed. I heard someone say, this is happening because we watch RUclips off our home page, and our feed is led by the algorithm not fed by our subscriptions.
I love DnD, however wotc has made me dislike it more and more every year.
Understable.
I did the experiment for you and watched the video at the end... let's see if it works. I want to ask my viewers to watch 2 of my videos in a row, but I'm nervous
I'm testing it on your channel, watching two of your back to back right now.
@@gamemasters aw, thank you so much! I'm honored!
@@gamemastersok, after I watched this video twice and another video, and subscribed, when I went to my homepage and hit refresh, one of your videos I hadn't seen was on top.
interesting... I did the same, actually watched three of yours (commented on two), thumbed up all of them, hit refresh and nothing. BUT.. I can say that I've been doing this experiment for about a week now (since last friday) with other creators and I'm only now starting to see their vids hit my recommended page..
Dude don't die !
We are rooting for YOU !
goonies never die!
Considering the history of dnd's community from its beginnings in the 70s up to now, this isn't new. If anything this is the third time we see a shift in the dnd community creating subsectors based on certain versions/eras.
The first time is when 3e is starting to become a thing, some people prefer the TSR versions of dnd and hence came the OSRs (the retroclones specifically, those based on vibes like Troika or the aspect of kriegspiel came later on).
Second time? Pathfinder's inception in the transition to 4e. People who loved 3e but not not wanting to transition to the next version continued their adventures thanks to pathfinder which not only is compatible with 3/3.5 material but even fixed the edition's issues.
The third time is 5e compatibles, whether it was the ogl or some other desire to play 5e in different methods we got things like tales of the valiant, shadowdark, draw steel and level up 5e (which is worth remembering that 5e compatible takes are a thing long before the ogl).
For me, i enjoy 5e as its the edition that i can get behind in and ive tried pathfinder 2e and a few of the osr offerings. With a few exceptions, rather two of them, i can't see myself commit to either pathfinder 2e or the osr in general. I also fell in love with the forgotten realms setting as it fits the fantasy i like the most that is not grimdark or dark fantasy. I dont plan to leave dnd but at the same time im not loyal to corporations or even content creators, plus i'll pick what i like and use them for whatever I play as i am a big fan of modding games.
I'm almost the opposite in that I like Pathfinder 2 more, because any question I need to ask is more easily answered by either direct RAW, or inference from another rule thats similar. And even if I end up ignoring or changing the rule, its very easy to understand how an existing rule fits into the larger system, thus making it easier to predict the consequences of said changes.
In my mind only a hand full of rule systems are integrally tied to their setting. And from experience, 5e is the most difficult to adapt other settings TO, because it already does such a poor job of defining itself. 5e is a very macro system. One of the hardest things is to convince DMs and Players alike, that 5e doesn't need you to roll for everything. Yet it makes you FEEL like you should be rolling for everything, because most of the rules are about when and how many dice to roll, and how often per day you can do it.
@freelancerthe2561 I understand why you like it but at the end of the day, 'The best edition is the one you have the most fun out of it.'
this is largely my take on it as well. I too will take parts of other systems and mod them into what works best at my table. It's less of a "pick and choose" and more of a "oh now THAT'S a cool idea! I'ma use it!"
"How To Be A Great GM" is stopping most D&D content because when he asked a RUclips representative why he wasn't getting promoted, the rep told him that RUclips was no longer going to push his channel and then they flat out asked what his next channel was going to be. He said he would still put out the occasional D&D video, but was going to concentrate on two new channels; one for Star Trek and the Star Trek RPG, and another that will find interesting travel destinations and describe how they could make great adventures.
that's the part that doesn't make any sense to me. Why would anyone at youtube openly tell anyone that they were no longer going to specifically push their channel or that type of content. There's something there that just doesn't "click".
@@gamemastersThe reason is they know he can generate interest but his old channel was not getting a lot of views. They want people to see you posted and instantly watch and interact. He had that going on before but it had stopped so they just were being honest - the algorithm was not going to keep serving his videos.
@@gamemasters☝🏿
It's a sticky game! I can't see my current table going away from D&D any time soon. Like you said, we use the system to make it what we want, and we are doing exactly that.
exactly!
I tried the watch back to back videos of a D&Dtuber I'd never watched before. their videos are not being recommended to my page.
interesting.. for me it works nearly every time.
Click bait gets you a do not recommend this channel, thanks
Fair enough. I'm not going for the drama so much as I am trying to spark conversation.
This video just showed up on my homepage fee as a recommendation and I figured I'd watch it. I'm going to go watch that second video and see if I can help out slightly. You just got a new subscriber by the way 🙂.
Sweet, welcome aboard! I'm hoping to give some good info out, but it's always nice to get new folks in the community!
interesting thoughts and points, it sadly is true that it all comes down to the algorithm at the end of day. But as another channel myself giving DnD videos a go I remain hopefully, for me it's fun and if anyone watches and is helped by my videos I'm happy. Can't wait to see your views on the new monster manual when it comes out, great video as always!
Aye, that algorithm.. it's a boss! I gotta drop by your channel and check it out!
@ I thought you were going to say it’s a bitch haha. Thank you that would honestly mean a lot to me (I wouldn’t recommend my latest, as sadly the focus and colour balance is off, but didn’t realise till I was editing and I had no time to reshoot) but I would love to hear your opinions on some of my ideas.
the only ting killing the community are the trahs clickbait, internet lynchymob RAGE flamers
@@badmojo0777 Honestly, its funny that for some reason I feel like those sorta things exist in **every** form of entertainment-based community one way or another.
Funny how Professor DM released the video about how clickbait was acceptable after he got backlash for outright stating that WotC/Hasbro was relinquishing their hold over D&D IP - something just about everyone wants. It transpired, in the video, that WotC were simply shutting down some failed money-grubbing D&D App. The comments section was damn furious, but then I guess that's the point, more comments = more YT algorithm love.
@@Ryotbh PDM is a man of imense experience and skill.. his insight is likely one of the most complete and valuable on youtube... and hes doing clickbait videos with is the perview of lesser content creators.
thats why im mad, we need more coverage of other games, we need more coverage of how to DM, we need more coverage of OSR and history.. not a picture of someone looking gobsmacked and " D&D gets worse OMG "
@@bobbobbing4220 the difference between Discourse's clicbait and prof DM clickbait is that Discourse is always doom and gloom and it takes her 3/4 of the video to get to the point, while profDM is far more straight forward and very little padding. Why i had to unsubscribe from Discourse, cause her clickbait became tedious and videos way way overpadded
@@Ryotbh with clickbait you get attention, but not a community. and the people that came because of attention will leave when something different gets it. Its really not as clever as the numbers make people think
I think D&D is contracting. The pop culture moment brought on by Critical Role, Stranger things, and the Pandemic is passing. Real hobbyist will continue to play, and it may grow slowly in some demographics. But I think it will become less popular over time. It may never return to the cultural obscurity from before the release of 5e, but I don't see it remaining a household name for another decade. And in this context, I purposefully use "D&D" in the "Cleanex" context. Where the wind blows official D&D, the hasbro product, it will also blow the TTRPG industry.
Channels like How to be a Game Master, Mann Shorts, and Web DM basically ran out of interesting content to make because it had all been said and done, they produced sooo many videos, so frequently, for so long. And their formats were somewhat narrow, which I don't mean as an insult. Webb DM and HTBaGM were two of the best Dungeon Master centric channels. And Mann Shorts was hilarious. But gowth inevitably slows, and all good things must come to an end.
That's.. a really good point and view. The "fans" of pop-culture are likely leaving because the immediate interest has waned and they have moved on to other things.. Whereas those of us that are in the hobby and have been in the hobby.. will.. always _be_ in the hobby. A most excellent observation!
Great to hear you're staying on RUclips and also great to hear you'll be doing some 2nd edition content as no-one is really doing that. The OSR (and 1st edition) gets pushed and 5th edition gets pushed with the editions in-between rather neglected. That's a shame as 2nd edition is my preferred version to play & DM.
That's the plan! I love me some good hardcore AD%D 2E!
I think some part is that the audience out grew it.. None of my players had played an rpg before the crit role craze and they wore me down into adding a one shot for game for night. I did 2E because I still had everything and we literally did a bottle cap game . They all listened to several D&D creators because it was new and they wanted to hear ideas and stories. Now we have a player who has 3 3d printers and turned his sons room into a mini display room, custom table and still play two to three times a month. But nobody really watches or talks about the creators anymore because they have their own ideas and stories in our world. I have bought several of the kick started books to steal ideas but have not spent a dime on new official D&D material since TSR was still stamped on the books It is is a weird game/business model, the better you are at creating the core idea the more likely your audience is going to need you less and less.
you have an excellent point too. I think a lot of it is exactly as you state; some of the audience has certainly outgrown the product and have moved on to other things, where other parts of the audience are simply wanting to develop their own thing for their game. I'd agree 100% with all of that.
Because it was fashion and we’re heading into March
I can.. kindav see that.
I would love to see more "fixes" for WotC related content similarly to how you did for Vecna. Was a great resource for a game I am running. Would love to see what else you would recommend for other adventures.
I agree, that was a LOT of fun for me to do and show everyone my step by step on how I did it. It's something that I do for almost any given adventure that comes out (but only so that it works better for my players at my table), but.. I'm 100% not opposed to doing this with future products...
I think that D&D 5e and I have simply grown apart with time. We had a nice run together, but we are not the same people now as we were when we first got together in 2014. What I want in my games is not what WotC is offering me. It's fine if we separate. D&D 5e no longer sparks joy in me, and there are so many other great games out there that either I enjoy playing or want to play.
and THAT is an important thing to keep in mind. There is nothing at all wrong with having lost interest. That's how I got with the Walking Dead. In the beginning it was rock and roll and solid as hell. Then it got to be a drag, the storyline went on for too long. Had they tightened up the storyline and made progress, I think that would have been enough to keep my interest. I've not watched any of the spinoff shows because I just no longer care. So.. I get it, if something fails to hold someone's interest, why stick with it?
I think what maintains our interest (at my table) is that we are all actively contributing to the story, for us, it's all about homebrew. We don't use the material from the books so much as a few concepts and ideas, but then we make it all our own.
My Friday FLGS has lost an Adventure League DM who is also a player due to the changes. However, my Wednesday FLGS players has grown. So 6E um 5.5E um 5.24E has not harmed the general community locally.
As to content creators leaving or not getting clicks. The Algorithm and burn out is thing.
Crazy Conspiracy today is facts in six months.
true, burnout is legit. I offer out that conspiracy mostly as a bit of tongue-in-cheek.. but.. there is a small part of me that wonders..
For my part at least I have been watching less videos because DnD is currently in a edition switch and the videos are mostly rule based. The fun times on youtube were when campaigns were dropping. Like I remember all the excitement for Descent into Avernus (for example). First you had the speculation of what would be in there, and then there would be the non-spoiler reviews, and then if you weren't planning on playing it as a player (or were the DM) there was the spoiler review. After that came the video of recommended changes. Those sorts of videos are all story related and you'd often think, "Oh man! Those are some great ideas!" Vecna Eve of Ruin was another example and though it was disappointing the tweaks and fixes on this channel and others were great! So, looking forward to when 5.5e gets back to that sort of content production...
Aye! I'm in that same boat. The rules are simply that, just rules. I most certainly prefer diving into the lore and storylines and seeing what I can do to tweak them and make them better. That said.. tho... I suppose the same could be done with the rules.. But.. I think I'd rather present that out as "homebrew" options.
The tradition of D&D and TTRPGs persists and is alive & well! Players are splintering, finding different games like Shadowdark, PF2e, Daggerheart, Draw Steel
Of which I play a few as well (mork borg, pirate borg, dragonbane, etc), but everyone (in my circle) keeps returning to dnd.
No, your last theory is not plausible but RUclips's practise of not promoting videos on channels that they assess to have peaked is well known. RUclips is a cruel master and algorithm induced burnout is very common.
@@ungainlytitan1460 Curious: Could twitch cause similar problems to streamers?
@@rpgchronicler Well! in principle they could but while I dabbled in RUclips creation, and streaming on Mixer when it existed, I never looked in to twitch all that much. I know nothing about how twitch makes its money.
Now THAT is an interesting take... makes me curious as to what their definition of peaked is. Like... how would they determine that.
@@gamemasters I think it is based on new viewers that klick through and watch the video and the number of them that subscribe. I am pretty sure I have seen someone do an analysis of it but not sure who. Also, they do not actually kill a channel but they stop promoting it to new viewers. Along with their habit of not notifying subscribers (even ones that click the bell) if they skip a couple of videos, that will put the channel on a path of permanent decline.
I don't think D&D is "on the brink of collapse" as a brand, hobby, or community. However, I _do_ think that people need to learn the difference between "booms or bubbles" of interest, and the sustained market (not just economic market, but also the "market of public interest and attention"). Trends come and go in society, and this describes when something picks up ("boom") amongst people ("consumers", "demographics") who had no-to-low engagement with that thing beforehand, but it does NOT typically describe or reference those who were "pre-boom" consumers engaging that thing. (For silly music references: certain styles and genres of music might "trend" for a summer or even a decade, but this rarely means that the "trend" is entirely new, but rather, that it is reaching "new audiences", hence becoming a *popular* trend, meaning engaging with those beyond its traditional market reach). Those music trends do not (cannot, will not ever) be sustained over time, because "the populous" is not readily pinned down in that way--- these surges of interest (trends, booms) bring more people into the fold of interested consumers than that given "thing" had prior to the boom, but when the tides of trending popularity recede, the numbers will ALWAYS go down. That isn't "failure" or "collapse", that just means that the actual core demographic of that thing's consumer base is being revealed (typically expanded from where it was pre-boom). The receding tides are the "bubble bursting", e.g. the end of the boom, but not the collapse of the core thing.
A lot of people mistake "popular boom" for "core market", which is where these problems come up: whether a RUclips content creator or a Hasbro shareholder, seeing "number go down" charts and analytics is sad, because as a society we're conditioned toward a hyper-masculine flex-and-gains approach to maths, which is hilariously not how math or economics work, but even economists have opted to abandon their discipline in favor of rock-hard-abs power-lifting RAWR approaches to the numbers. Perpetual gain is not natural, normal, or sustainable; growth-only models are ALWAYS careening toward bubble-burst dynamic.
To those whose financial security (or expectations of sustained future growths) are tied to these games or this brand, the "receding tides of popular trending consumer engagement" (e.g. a microcosmic recession within this industry specifically, more on this in a moment) this absolute can feel/look like a collapse. And it sucks. And it genuinely hurts. It is genuinely good during periods of popular expansion (meaning "sales and engagement or otherwise financially benefitted clicks-and-likes" into larger demographics than the core niche market) that creators get that extra padding of financial windfall for their efforts, and new opportunities to create and expand what/how creative process works in that market--- but these popular trends are tidal, like tourism for a region which is popularized only for a given season or even for a finite period of time follow, I dunno, a widely celebrated blockbuster film or best-selling book featuring that region/location, etc. Booms can hurt the core market (those who were there before the boom and those who will remain after the boom) by giving the often encouraged/modeled "false sense of sustained growth" which encourages people (creators, companies, et al) to extend further into that given market in anticipation of continued returns.
There is not a "collapse" coming, but their absolutely *is* a D&D (and TTRPG in general) recession occurring: an overall decline in popular trend-spending on/in this sector. Why? Because outside of its niche core demographic (and we *are* a niche hobby or intersection of hobbies!) the popular add-ons will have moved on to other hobbies or interests, as life happens, and they age out of pandemic lockdown/sheltering inspired routines and interests. We can continue to cite Stranger Things for its influence on popularizing D&D (nostalgia sells) till the cows come home, but the real boom "ignition" was always a small sampling of high-production-quality real-plays (CR, Dim20) which demonstrated for newcomers "how to play" and "what is play" without needing to open a book, and then the perfect storm of the pandemic lockdown giving people a real-life need for things to do with themselves to stay connected, sane, and have a little bit of magic to inspire them through the darkest of times many could have imagined.
Recessions occur when trend-spending declines---- in this case, the core demographic who was ALREADY "the TTRPG community" will mostly still be here, with some new faces who joined up in just the last 5-10 years. That receding popular interest is not the same as a collapse, because the share of the market which recedes was never ACTUALLY the market--- they were tourists, seasonally occasioning themselves in our hobby and our game, and as "gatekeepy" as that sounds, I really don't mean it that way. But having lived in tourist-trap towns, it is a REALLY important element to consider: the locals (residents, consumers) and the local businesses (long-term fixtures) can always spot the difference between them ("the core population") and the seasonal traffic (consumer boom, yay local money, boo lack of parking and increased litter/noise complaints) and "tourism pop-up businesses" who open up shop specifically along with (and as a part of) that tidal surge. When the tidal surge leaves, there'll always be SOME who stick around: a business or two who started up in that context, but who found a home amongst the locals ("the core") or even came up through/from it, and further, some tourists WILL seek to set down roots and stick around. But the loss of boom-based traffic surge is not a "collapse of the local main street economy" unless the locals make decisions during the boom which expect it to never recede, never surrender, higher-further-faster-baby--- and as OG stewards of the hobby, serving to the needs both of the core folk who were here before AND those newcomers who may choose to stick around, I'd love to see more creators actually speaking of these trends with a sense of realism (recession vs collapse, trends and booms and bubbles vs drama and hyped up economic eschatological finality).
Click-bait titles and thumbs to appease the algorithm, and even the algorithm itself, aren't the issue (and it is fine and important for creators to make the platform concessions they need to in order to sustain their base), but I really would love to see the community discuss itself (as a market, as a consumer base, as a niche hobby) with a sense of perspective informed by the real world we live in, and NOT sound as deluded as the shareholders who want "number go up" growth in perpetuity, because that simply isn't how any of this works (and at a practical level, everyone knows it, but almost nobody is saying it). When did reality-check basic foundational observation become "the quiet part"?
that's actually a really good observation. With the pandemic we saw a lot of people stuck at home and D&D was an easy game to play online. Add to that the popularity of Stranger Things, Critical Roll, etc, and it drew lots of folks in to it that would have otherwise never looked at it. Time has now passed and those folks are finding interest elsewhere.
We've seen this happen with other aspects of the gaming industry as well, ccgs specifically. The initial boom of them in the 1990's saw hundreds of new ccg games pop up and all made some mad money initially. Then it became too much so players had to focus on a small few core games. You are 100% correct in pointing out the difference between "booms" and "bubbles". In fact.. I'll add to that a little in that you can also have a "boom" within the "bubble".
Most excellent observation and I thank you for commenting!
@@gamemasters just into my first cup of coffee here, so I apologize if any of my reply came across as problematic or tonally negative--- your treatment in this video (as in most of your videos!) was excellent, and I appreciate your approach to these things! I have a bad habit of writing accidental walls of text replies before my brain's tone-registry has properly booted up--- so I hope I didn't inadvertently come across as harsh or challenging. I just would love to see discussions that hone in on cultivating the core demographic--- what do the main street business and locals do once the tourism season is quieting down, and the market "goes back to base". It can be incredibly disconcerting, discouraging, when our society models only this idea that "growth must be achieved and sustained, or else, FAILURE", which simply isn't a real thing and never has been (nor could be).
Thanks for another great and insightful episode. (Also: I clicked to a second video of yours, after, as requested. It didn't change my "Home" recommendations. I typically have one or two videos of yours, sometimes recent and sometimes not, hovering in the first two lines of recommendations--- but refreshes or returns to home intermittently drop them in favor of people I've never heard of, and wouldn't typically click on. I don't pretend to know how the algorithm works....)
OH NO! NOT ANOTHER SCANDAL!™️
I recently watched Zee Bashew's "Are there Dinosaur Bones in space?" again.
In it Tobo Rotano teaches us that, whenever we see a headline that's phrased as a question, the answer is no.
Is DnD dying? No.
Anyway, time to watch the video.
The way I see it, you are correct.
WoTc and Hasbro? Probably, but the D&D Community? Unlikely....well, unless we unleash WWIII this year then, yeah, I suspect the D&D Community will be in for a bad time. Twilight 2000 anyone?
heh
Oh, yeah, absolutely; I don't see "DnD" collapsing, but I definitely see it surviving WotC xD
gosh, can you imagine if it got into the hands of folks that were passionate about the brand instead of trying to use the brand as a means of licensing? But.. then again.. I'm not a billion dollar entity that making such a decision would (or wouldn't) have an impact.
AS of late I really have stopped clicking on a lot of the you tube videos that have click bait titles or the videos that tend to lean towards complaining. So are they getting less views because of content I would agree. Maybe presenting fun different content might have helped? Still would need to be DnD based ofc since most people play that. Problem is I stopped clicking their videos because I seen some that I would not watch then I would miss the ones I should watch.
I have a secondary theory too.. Take a look at some of the channels that have left or have seen declining numbers. The content is all over the map, live plays + reviews + interviews + rants = the algo has no clue what to do with it all so it spreads thin. At least in part..
@@gamemasters I can agree with that.
do this, ask a D&D diehard "why do you like D&D?"
they will list reasons, but these qualties are inherant to tabletop rpgs inherantly (hang with friends, cool stories, clicky clack math rock)
people dont like D&D, they like TTRPGS and only really know D&D....
if the players had to pay to play like the GMs do that tune would change REAL fast.
I'll agree with you, but would also add that it's the familiarity of d&d, but possibly too the investment (of both time and money) and I'd be willing to bet a donut that WotC banks on that investment.
@ We are at a critical moment where the transition from 5E to "One" represents a clear point of weakness in the brand, one that other systems should seize as an opportunity.
Hasbro has demonstrated an almost cartoonish level of greed and villainy over the last few decades, culminating in its recent, highly publicized actions. Anyone paying attention should realize that "One" is shaping up to be 4E on steroids-designed to nickel-and-dime players at every turn.
My only hope is that the community isn’t so entrenched or conditioned that they fail to recognize this. It would be a shame to see people either cling to the system out of habit or abandon the hobby altogether.
Agreed. I’m not leaving. This is my third channel and I’ve known for years RUclips sucks, kinda like WotC.
I like your conspiracy theories
heh this one needs to be on the why files!
Respect
mutual
The truth is if you are reading this message you are more into the fanatic element of D&D then the vast majority that play the game. If you know what everything about the OGL debacle you are in that upper 10%. If you know about the Pinkertons and the MTG fiasco then you are in the top 5% of in the know. The OGL only broke the numbers at that time because it directly would affect kickstarters and that made everyone take note.
Bottom line D&D will keep going and likely slowly slow down as a trend as it always was going to and become the niche hobby it usually is soon.
I think this puts us both in the top 5%.. I've made videos on all that stuff.. and I read your message! AND I commented haha!
RUclipsrs quiting DnD videos has nithing to do with DnD decline. What is really causing a decline is the youtubers making it a theratical production. Chritical roles ginny di etc.... that making a it seem like if you are not a thesbian you are not playing DnD.
yeah, I'm not into theatrics. YES we get goofy and in character at the table and on occasion I'll get goofy with my videos, but my core focus is to share experience. I suppose that's what others do as well, but I'm more of a... "let's get to the point" as opposed to maintaining popups and sliding elements on the screen. I use that stuff but only to help sell the point and not to keep someone's interest.
I don't think these channels ending has anything to do with this hobby(or any other). Making videos on this platform(or any other platform) is not a viable long-term strategy for most people. It takes an enormous amount of work and there's no guarantee that it'll be enough to pay the bills. This is kind of a reset to what RUclips used to be. No one was getting paid to make videos in the beginning. They did it for fun or to share their knowledge and experience. Yes, a few people have gotten lucky enough to do this as a full-time job, but it almost always causes burnout. I'm grateful for the creators who put out the free content I enjoy. However, I understand that they've got bills to pay. That's why so many of them rely on Patreon, sponsors, or other similar things to fund the videos. Otherwise, this isn't a sustainable business model. And I doubt it ever will be.
agreed. I think that's partly why I've not suffered from burn out from it, I'm not doing it to pay the bills.. well.. to be fair.. some bills _do_ get paid from this.. but still.. my core drive is to have fun.
Man don't close up shop !
Your videos give me and others something to look forward to
Remember that one time your were in a crawlspace !?
Dude that is entertaining
LOL I don't plan on going anywhere! Just wait till you see my next crazy location!
There was an absolute boom in the hobby around COVID and 5.50th may recover a bit of that.
And I mean, Hasbro has money but could they really have bribe RUclips money?
you bring up a very good point. I agree that it's simply a theory (the yt to promote only wotc stuff) and I DO have my doubts on it.. but.. I'm collecting a small bit of data and comparing to what I heard someone say today..
Love the videoes you make!
Thank you!!
Are you interested in covering Shadow Dark?
I would...
i tink the wholesome point of view went out thwe window withnecromancy, murder hobing.and the 80s Statnic Panic :D
hahahahahahaha fair point BUT.. those are things that the game company itself _didn't_ do; in this case, Hasbro/WotC made the decision that it would be okay to license out the brand for gambling.
If your quitting DnD to spite WOTC your just hurting yourself and others in the space by sabotaging a perfectly good legacy game that’s made, at its core, by nerds like us with a pure love for the game first and foremost.
I.. can partially agree. This too is from my own experience, but of those that I've spoken with that left the game did so because of hasbro or wotc business decisions and not purely because of the game itself.
Thank you 😊
thank you! :) :)
Now I think it is not WotC's fault that D&D books are so bad, it is Crawford and all of the other incompetents that work there. The corporation would do well to get rid of them and bringing back the old staff.
I don't get this criticism. So I don't know the man other than his Todd Kendrick interviews, and I neither love nor hate him.. he's the system lead for the most popular version of D&D ever (and I own 2e, 3.5, 4, 5th) ... so obviously he's doing something right? Surely? What is the hate for?
I don't know that I'd agree 100% here. 5e has been super popular and this new 5.5e (okay okay, 2024 5e) is looking to be solid and improves upon what was out from 10 years ago. True, these last two years have seen some unusual content produced, but I'm thinking that that's more along the lines to "lets just put something out" while others were working on the new core material.
@@AAron-gr3jk If by the most popular version of D&D you mean the 2014 5e, then he is not the rules developer and he is co-lead with Mike Mearls.
In the early stages of 5e, both Mearls and Crawford clarified rules and contradicted each other. To my mind, it is clear that the one who understood the rules is Mike Mearls, not Crawford.
I don't hate him, I just think he is incompetent.
Hasbro/WotC hates us, that's all.
@@nosotrosloslobosestamosreg4115 how is that?
@@gamemasters That company hates gamers, just like happened on 1983 ATARI's downfall. The suits in charge hate/despise us, thinking we should send them our money just becaue, instead we're forcing them to """work""".
Your next video never showed up on my screen.
hmm. that's interesting... it never popped up in the box at the end of this video? Should be "how many hp does a mountain have?"
@@gamemasters No, it didn't popup at all. I was using an Android Phone if that helps with troubleshooting. Sometimes RUclips throws ads in immediately at the end and covers things up. But this didn't happen. Anyway I went ahead and hit your page and watched a few videos, not sure if it will help with your test. I wonder how much someone "playing all" in a playlist affects the data.
I'm staying with D&D to whatever end
yeah.. me as well. mainly because I've got too much invested in it, but also because.. I enjoy playing it.
@@gamemasters The way I see it; if WotC can't create any kind of appealing content for us fans, WE should do so ourselves.
By that; I mean that WE should create our own campaigns, books, movies, minis and so on. It HAS been done before, several times.
One such example I can think of is the Field Guide to Floral Dragons, which is a book that got fully funded via Kickstarter
Wow, I do believe that D&D is in trouble and it is teetering on the brink of going back into obscurity. Because I believe it has pro nor wizards of the coast are going to last much longer if they continue to go down the road that they’re going because Hasbro wants to turn DND into a 100% electronic product and you can’t do that with Dungeons & Dragons I mean you can add Types of electronic components to it. I’m sure but to take everything that is DND and squeeze it into the electronic realm. You’re going to lose a lot of people include if they keep going down, this woke path that they have chosen you’re going to lose a lot of people and they’re losing. Lots of people will not die and dragons will not die. It will just disappear from the mainstream and people will still play, but it will be in private games in homes where the likes Hasbro and wizards of the coastcannot touch them and cannot stop them from creating their own rules and taking the best out of each set of dungeons and dragons and leaving the rest
I'm working on a video right now.. that shows some direct evidence that they are not going down a "woke path". Should be an interesting video, but it'll be out (hopefully) next week.
@09:50 That as my exact first thought with OneD&D, the VTT and Microtransactions being pushed by WoTC - the strategy may be to simply get YT to downgrade OST/OSR/BobTTRPG channels in a way to starve them out (and let OneD&D be there to fill the hole). This makes sense (from a WoTC perspective) since it's about increasing revenue. However - it's all about the love of the game, so in that sense, such a move will backfire; people will still make videos on TTRPG. Those will always show up in a standard search engine.
heh except that standard search engine.. is... run by google.. who owns youtube. so.. :( Best way to market is by word of mouth really. It is a sad thing when a content creator feels pushed out, I don't like that at all because there are some good ones. BUT.. for whatever it's worth, I'll keep pushing out videos because I find it fun, even if it's for an audience of one.
Good.
Very good
The videos whining about WotC seem to do fine. Theres a "screw WotC" bandwagon that is doing really well. A channel called discourse and dragons gets recommended to me all the time and i absolutely abhor that channel and its constant whining and complaining.
I enjoy fun ideas and theory crafting in the game. Not all the complaining vids.
Ive always been a fan of your videos and will continue to be for as long as you provide them.
@@laughingpanda4395 i need to do a video that covers a couple of really new concepts that I want to cover..
When kolbold press had animal lords 7 years ago. Wotc might go tho after their shenanigans.
hmm.... I'm not sure that I follow.
I watched the 2nd video. But, I'm still not being recommended your videos.
hmm.. I've been experimenting with this; I've found that watching two videos back to back from the same creator only sometimes hits that recommend space; but when I watch and give a thumbs up, that triggers it almost immediately. Over the past week I have been doing this test, but also noticed that some of the channels are only now popping up as being recommended. I swear.. I'll never understand the algo..
I can't disagree with you more strongly about this "new edition".
It's awful.
Pathetic and, frankly, I wouldn't buy the new books if they were five to dollars, each
Glad you are not quitting but... I'm really not sure how you see any value in the new books.
I'm a 45 year GM who owned a game store and I have run many systems... it's not like I don't know good from crap...
and "5.5e" or whatever... is crap.
There's a very good reason the video views are dropping.
The market is oversaturated and too many Dungeon Tubers all want to fill the same niche.
That's why it's failing.
Is D&D losing popularity?
Yes.
That's to be expected.
If anyone believed it was going to stay at pandemic level indefinitely... I have some swamp land in Florida to sell them.
That's not a bad thing.
The worst thing that ever happened to D&D was it going mainstream.
what makes this new round of books crap?
I hope that Elon Musk rescues TSR from WotC and restores it with their product line in Lake, Geneva, WI.
Shame on WotC for their libelous warning labels on vintage TSR products.
I don't see Musk moving to Wisconsin. And I've not seen any additional rumors out about him wanting it (like what we did see with twitter). Was likely just an off the cuff remark.
I'm okay with believing the conspiracy theory after all the things around wotc and Hasbro the last couple years, eg the Pinkerton incident
conspiracy theories are fun to explore, but scary at the same time. I'm not sure that I'm going to put too much stock into it, mainly because I continue to see fantastic traction on my videos.
Well hurry up and get this collapse over with. All the political infighting has no place in the TTRPG community
agreed! 100%!
Great to hear you're staying on RUclips and also great to hear you'll be doing some 2nd edition content as no-one is really doing that. The OSR (and 1st edition) gets pushed and 5th edition gets pushed with the editions in-between rather neglected. That's a shame as 2nd edition is my preferred version to play & DM.
That's the plan! I love me some good hardcore AD%D 2E!