Piepkorn participated in “Lutherans and Catholics in Dialogue” - which yielded some surprising conclusions (see Volume IV on Eucharist and Ministry). One of the Roman participants (Fr. George Tavard) concluded that presbyterial successions are a matter of history, and said: I would be prepared to go further, and to admit that episcopal succession is not absolutely required for valid ordination…. The main problem, in our ecumenical context, does not lie in evaluating historical lines of succession, but in appreciating the catholicity of Protestantism today. Fellow participant Fr. Harry McSorley concluded, after a thorough study of the Council of Trent: We can say without qualification that there is nothing whatever in the Tridentine doctrine on sacrament of order concerning the reality of the eucharist celebrated by Christians of the Reformation churches. Catholic theologians who have maintained that there is no sacrament of the body and blood of Christ in Protestant churches because Protestant ministers are radically incapable of consecrating the eucharist are incorrect if they think this opinion is necessitated by the teaching of Trent.
I wholeheartedly agree with what p. Rod says and I promote his teachings and sermons to my friends so you can imagine how sad I felt when I saw in the previous video that you eliminated my comment, just because for one and only one time I have a critic to express. Please, don't do it again. My only objection was that we can't just say a neutral ''I disagree with you'' and not ''your teaching is heresy'' when the other christian doesn't teach the law/gospel distinction and the reality and effectuality of the sacraments. God be with you. Keep going in your beautiful service to the church.
Hi Jordan, if a comment of yours inadvertently got removed, our apologies. We don't shy away from healthy criticism and have no need to shut it down. Thank you for your input. Regarding your 'I disagree with you', I agree with that. We're not here to set up a formal debate with our audience. It is how Mike Horton and Dad came together in the beginning of the White Horse Inn radio program to do their great work there. Too often, quickly throwing around a formal charge of 'heresy/heretic' at people we disagree with can both be an inaccurate error, as well as water down the true weight of the charge when used as an ad hominem just to be snarky. We are here to focus on the Gospel of Jesus Christ for sinners, being aware of our differences with other denominations, and welcome kind and open discussions with all Christians and unbelievers. When our culture returns to something resembling the normal we all remember, I hope you will consider joining us for our yearly Here We Still Stand event. It would be great to meet you. - Ted
Hi, Fellow Lutherans, your discussion on apostolic discussion was too brief and then there was more discussion on the whether or not Jews will be saved. Your position is succession of doctrine and not succession of ordination. I think a Christian can believe in either of them and still be faithful to Christ. If you are going to talk about Jews and salvation, then it would be good to discuss Romans 9 - 11. What are the gifts from God for Israel that are irrevocable? Thanks for bring up this topic for discussion about apostolic succession. I grew up in St. Louis and belonged to the LCMS and now I am retired pastor in the ELCA. So that may give you a hint about asking my questions.
Good position. ANother matter is that apostolic succession of ministers does not go through bishops alone. Pastors (priests) and bishops share the ministry and ordain pastors. THe presence or absence of bishops at ordinations really is not all that important. Bishops are prebyters, too, and so long as presbyters pass on the ordination, it matters little whether they are bishops or not, despite all the tomfoolery of Anglicans about that subject. If they are unbelievers, what are they passing on, anyhow? Ordination is to ministers OF THE FAITH, not to hierarchical privilege. At least, not primarily.
There are some things on my mind. If anyone has thoughts on my thoughts I would love to hear what others think. Here are my thoughts. In the NT it seems very obvious that even Jesus' closest disciples are wrongly trying to attain power or authority over each other. Example the Sons of Thunder and their mom. Jesus always rebukes these. Jesus makes it clear we have one leader. The Christ. We are all brethren, so call each other brother. So it is clearly right there. Case closed. The whole man made church systems with people exalting themselves and the pope on top. It's completely against Jesus. There is also the event in Mark 9 where Jesus said he who is not against us is for us. Problems only arise when we ignore Jesus and scrape around in the epistles for answers instead. No problem for me. I am a Christian and follow Jesus. I don't follow Paul or anyone else. Only Jesus. By the way, I like that you say "succession of doctrine" it sounds like the same idea J. Warner Wallace describes it as "chain of custody" of scripture
The apostle’s ordination of deacons in Acts 6. Also 1 Timothy 5:22. The “laying on of hands” has traditionally been interpreted as ordination. Paul also speaks of Timothy’s own ordination in the same way (1 Timothy 4:14). So historically, churches have emphasized the value for their pastors to have been ordained in an unbroken line back to the apostles as a sign of legitimacy.
Dr. Rosenblatt is amazing. It must have been wonderful to take one of his classes back in the day.
Piepkorn participated in “Lutherans and Catholics in Dialogue” - which yielded some surprising conclusions (see Volume IV on Eucharist and Ministry). One of the Roman participants (Fr. George Tavard) concluded that presbyterial successions are a matter of history, and said:
I would be prepared to go further, and to admit that episcopal succession is not absolutely required for valid ordination…. The main problem, in our ecumenical context, does not lie in evaluating historical lines of succession, but in appreciating the catholicity of Protestantism today.
Fellow participant Fr. Harry McSorley concluded, after a thorough study of the Council of Trent:
We can say without qualification that there is nothing whatever in the Tridentine doctrine on sacrament of order concerning the reality of the eucharist celebrated by Christians of the Reformation churches. Catholic theologians who have maintained that there is no sacrament of the body and blood of Christ in Protestant churches because Protestant ministers are radically incapable of consecrating the eucharist are incorrect if they think this opinion is necessitated by the teaching of Trent.
Great discussion with Dad Rod, God's peace be with you both.
Thanks, good answers, God bless.
I wholeheartedly agree with what p. Rod says and I promote his teachings and sermons to my friends so you can imagine how sad I felt when I saw in the previous video that you eliminated my comment, just because for one and only one time I have a critic to express. Please, don't do it again. My only objection was that we can't just say a neutral ''I disagree with you'' and not ''your teaching is heresy'' when the other christian doesn't teach the law/gospel distinction and the reality and effectuality of the sacraments. God be with you. Keep going in your beautiful service to the church.
Hi Jordan, if a comment of yours inadvertently got removed, our apologies. We don't shy away from healthy criticism and have no need to shut it down. Thank you for your input. Regarding your 'I disagree with you', I agree with that. We're not here to set up a formal debate with our audience. It is how Mike Horton and Dad came together in the beginning of the White Horse Inn radio program to do their great work there. Too often, quickly throwing around a formal charge of 'heresy/heretic' at people we disagree with can both be an inaccurate error, as well as water down the true weight of the charge when used as an ad hominem just to be snarky.
We are here to focus on the Gospel of Jesus Christ for sinners, being aware of our differences with other denominations, and welcome kind and open discussions with all Christians and unbelievers. When our culture returns to something resembling the normal we all remember, I hope you will consider joining us for our yearly Here We Still Stand event. It would be great to meet you. - Ted
The problem with apostolic succession is that so many different churches have it that are not in communion with each other.
There is a reason for that.
Hi, Fellow Lutherans, your discussion on apostolic discussion was too brief and then there was more discussion on the whether or not Jews will be saved. Your position is succession of doctrine and not succession of ordination. I think a Christian can believe in either of them and still be faithful to Christ. If you are going to talk about Jews and salvation, then it would be good to discuss Romans 9 - 11. What are the gifts from God for Israel that are irrevocable? Thanks for bring up this topic for discussion about apostolic succession. I grew up in St. Louis and belonged to the LCMS and now I am retired pastor in the ELCA. So that may give you a hint about asking my questions.
Good position. ANother matter is that apostolic succession of ministers does not go through bishops alone. Pastors (priests) and bishops share the ministry and ordain pastors. THe presence or absence of bishops at ordinations really is not all that important. Bishops are prebyters, too, and so long as presbyters pass on the ordination, it matters little whether they are bishops or not, despite all the tomfoolery of Anglicans about that subject. If they are unbelievers, what are they passing on, anyhow? Ordination is to ministers OF THE FAITH, not to hierarchical privilege. At least, not primarily.
There are some things on my mind. If anyone has thoughts on my thoughts I would love to hear what others think.
Here are my thoughts. In the NT it seems very obvious that even Jesus' closest disciples are wrongly trying to attain power or authority over each other. Example the Sons of Thunder and their mom. Jesus always rebukes these. Jesus makes it clear we have one leader. The Christ. We are all brethren, so call each other brother.
So it is clearly right there. Case closed. The whole man made church systems with people exalting themselves and the pope on top. It's completely against Jesus.
There is also the event in Mark 9 where Jesus said he who is not against us is for us.
Problems only arise when we ignore Jesus and scrape around in the epistles for answers instead. No problem for me. I am a Christian and follow Jesus. I don't follow Paul or anyone else. Only Jesus.
By the way, I like that you say "succession of doctrine" it sounds like the same idea J. Warner Wallace describes it as "chain of custody" of scripture
Where is apostolic succession in the Bible?
The apostle’s ordination of deacons in Acts 6. Also 1 Timothy 5:22. The “laying on of hands” has traditionally been interpreted as ordination. Paul also speaks of Timothy’s own ordination in the same way (1 Timothy 4:14). So historically, churches have emphasized the value for their pastors to have been ordained in an unbroken line back to the apostles as a sign of legitimacy.
Ive heard feom other LCMS pastors that there is a laying on of hands during ordination