@@JumboCod91 rise got some nice changes this week. But ya throne sucks because there are just so many dangerous enemies in there, it's hard to pull aggressively enough to make up time.
sometimes it's not timeable with normal pulls. But I've done some of the craziest last boss pulls in order to time keys that were "not timeable" according to most players. but sometimes when there is no time left you have to pull 3 trash packs onto the last boss and it's either make or break, nothing risked, nothing gained. Also Augs are boosted.
Ya man I feel like that's true everywhere in life. When you succeed where you expect to fail its a bigger emotional response than when you just expect to win and still do anyway.
Man, that DH's reaction to the wipe in everbloom is just the kind of stuff that burns me out on tanking... like bursting is a DPS mechanic but somehow it's the tank's fault they can't control themselves?
Ya pretty funny. Dude is trying his hardest to blame me for just about anything. Threat when we are wiping. Trying to convince me not to pull something after its already in the room. Trying to convince me not to die when the boss is at 85 percent with 1 dps alive. That's the stuff that makes tanking so hard honestly.
Somebody has to take responsibility in their mind, I guess. The pull was already happening, MD was clearly down and they 9-stacked this shit anyways. No damage phase up on boss yet from what I could see there? Just Boss + Flowers. It was 100% hinging on two things: 1.) Metro living the debuff stacks + boss. 2.) Not overcooking the bursting stacks for no reason. As usual, the modern day DPS troglodytes decided that, MD is down, the flowers are on the Boss, it was clearly Metros fault for doing such a pull and coercing them into coldly killing them all in such a manner that bursting would stack to a lethal dose. I guess the modern zoo ape dps brain has a very simple understanding of how Bursting functions. Whatever the Tank pulls, it dies and if what the tank pulled generated too many stacks, well.. pull smaller, we can't possibly shift focus or hold for a quick second, right? RIGHT? There clearly were no options left!
@@adrianreichelt7057 tbf the flowers die really fast and it's very hard in big flower pulls not to get overstacked on bursting, but it doesn't really look like they even tried :P
@@adrianreichelt7057 Ya DH literally said that, that he can't possibly not kill them all together like that. What's maybe not obvious here is I did this pull 10+ times that week and we got to 8-10 stacks most times, but no one died. This group just handled everything about it poorly. The priest and aug do not dispel anyone, and the other DPS do not do anything to help themselves survive it. But at the end of the day, its the attitude and indignance that we are showcasing here. The game is meant to be difficult, so I am always shocked when players are unable to think through that difficulty, and just blame some one else for the mistakes being made, as if that person (who usually is the same progression level as them) is just totally new with no experience in what they are doing.
My group had so many keys like this, we noticed saying 'gg' after a wipe is a stupid mentality and we started saying 'nee it's not dead' even when the key was actually dead, as funny as it sounds this improved our number of key we timed, we had a 25 EB timed with 300milliseconds above the timer
That's badass, and really encouraging to hear honestly. If more people competed that way, everyone would have much higher success rate. Its a hard mentality to get into, but quitting is obviously not helping you progress, so gotta do it eventually.
Ya it's really hard to understand where it comes from but has to just be peppered with that generational entitlement that we see everywhere. No true interest in facing hardship and overcoming it?
found your vids from Growl's channel .. your compilation of all the m+ leavers was fun to watch i main a tank and i've pretty muched stopped pugging anything higher than 15. the main problem i run into is that so many pug players either don't speak english, don't pay attn to party chat, or just don't care, and it's impossible to communicate. granted, i live in the EST time zone and i do a lot of runs late night/early morning. but if i need to run something higher to get my score up or improve my vault i'll get with some guildies in discord to make everything smoother. also, you made a strong point about people wanting to quit as soon as anything goes wrong. not sure why so many people are such babies about wiping in m+. just click rez, acknowledge what to do to prevent another wipe, and PRESS W
I feel like in keys up to 20 leaving is much less of an issue though unless the key is hard out of time. Most people are either in it for the vaul or for gear so they will stick around even if it takes 5-10 minutes longer. Insta leaving because it is not timed is mostly a high key thing were depletes above 20 no longer give any score and items are really only an upgrade if you roll leech or avoidance.
This is great awareness building for people. In my case, playing as a Tank, Healer or DPS, I never leave the keys. Even if it is not upgraded, you learn from each new run, so for me it is imperative to finish it always.
Ya, and that learning never stops. Every level you go higher, with a different affix each week, means there's always something new to learn to maximize in your runs. Especially as the tank and healer.
the last time I left a key was a ruby life pools tyrannical 16 the holy priest just couldn't heal it or survive it and I had forced some people to wait for me for about 50minutes to do a key. I gave the priest some tips before I left since I normally healed though
There are two maxims or sayings from my childhood that I believe apply here and seem to have been lost to time. 1) You learn more from a "loss" than you do a "victory". Analyzing our losses allows us to grow by highlighting our mistakes. If you only experience wins then you will never improve because you will not think you need to. And if you only want to play if you can win you are cutting short your opportunity to learn and get better for the next time. I guarantee these people who are abandoning keys so early are also abandoning the knowledge they could have gained from being able to critically analyze even the part of the run that they did do. Because to them it is just garbage that they throw away and forget in their minds immediately since "only upgrading matters" no need to pay attention to a disband, right? If they put in that extra 5-10 minutes to finish the key they might actually value it enough to learn from their mistakes but sadly I don't think they ever will. and 2) Say it forget it, write it regret it. Essentially things you put down in writing can come back to bite you in the butt whereas it is a LOT easier to move on from and have everyone forget about the silly and stupid things you only say. Now with the advent of the internet and game streaming and recording this saying has been magnified a million fold. The asinine things these people say and do is recorded forever and thanks to you is being shared with a plethora more people than would ever have seen it before. And it will never go away, but these people seem to not realize that and that will ultimately be their downfall. So people besides Metro who might be reading this, take it from an old man who has been doing this for a very long time. Just 1) put the effort in to actually admit and learn from your mistakes and 2) Put your best self forward online so that the impression you leave in this world for all to see for the rest of time is not one of an alternate name for a donkey. Thanks for all you do to make the community better, bud. It is deeply appreciated by the majority of us.
Ya man you are so right about those two things. Totally void of either of the tenements of those sayings. Guess kids just don't learn these types of conventional wisdoms anymore.
I feel like for the EB 1st Boss clip, there were many ways that could've gone better. I'm pretty sure the healing could've gone better. Maybe external 1 dispel another or use barrier for it. However, people need to just not continue killing and cleaving the adds down. If you perfectly cleave them all and instantly go to 9-10 stacks, that might be healable. However, it's impossible to heal when you sit at a higher number of stacks let it roll for a couple ticks and then refresh it. It almost fell off at 4, but at the last moment 4 more stacks popped sending it to 8. When that stack was about to fall off it refreshed and was put at 9 stacks. Only 1 death would've happened at this point, the evoker. This refresh killed the healer, and then they refreshed it again to 10, which basically bricked the boss fight. That pull is completely survivable without the mass dispel if the dps just used their brains and chilled for 3 seconds at any of those points in time.
Ya just terrible preparation from all players really. No real defensive strategy from the DPS, no dispels or CDs used from the healer. Strange how you go full dungeons without seeing barrier used.
Ya sadly that's something I see very often. Literally just had it today. Guy tells me to skip a pack in the second boss room of throne as we are on our way to the first boss. I ask him why, he says "because we don't need it?" Literally telling me what route to run lol... I told him no, we are skipping at the end. He says "pull it with the second boss then" and we do and wipe and they act like it was my mistake. Crazy game anymore!
Love the videos man. Been much more actively trying to foster a positive group environment with good communication within other peoples and my own keys. Noticed by just merely doing this my success rate has gone up massively! From struggling to do a 17 at the start of the season without people disbanding, to pushing into my first 22 this week with ease!
Oh great, glad to hear that. Just a bit of respect and friendliness goes a long way. Not sure how people have forgotten that honestly. Kinda scary! Hate to see how they act in actually stressful situations irl
@@heythereguysitsMetro People forget that there are people behind the characters in runs. We spend so much time on the net that basic courtesy that we would extend to someone if we were speaking face to face is lost.
That everbloom clip. Amazing. Slow rolling a 5 stack into a 6 stack into a 7 stack into 8 stack into a 9 stack... simply beautiful. It takes a great amount of skill from the DPS to perfectly roll bursting stack like this!
@@drewbediah8744 if a bdk stop attacking he cant death strike anymore and will die. Something highly likely in a +25 with giga stacks from lashers (and nobody to clear them) this is 100% on the DPS to stop pushing their aoe button for 2 globals.
I've had moderate success this season, but even my guildie tried to give up on a key cuz it wasn't timed. We all wanted gear but he quit... this issue is far away from just a pug issue now. This has started infecting even guild groups. I finish 99% of my keys, I have learned over 10 new things this week at 23-25 without learning there is nothing. If you know everything then what's the point of even playing(spoiler alert... no1 knows everything).
Had a priest not healing the tank [or anyone at some points - literally 0 on the healing meter during pulls] in a BRH, a clearly new "I'm playing a meta class" havoc demon hunter just going all in on packs before the tank could even do anything. One blamed the tank for being squishy, the other blamed the tank for not having any aggro. The 3rd dingus mage just dogpiled on and blamed the tank because the other 2 were blaming him. He was not paying the slightest bit of attention and just went with the flow. That tank was insanely experienced in both tanking, healing, and dpsing and was is one of the best on a very competitive realm. What happens when he tells them what's going wrong [in a very polite way mind you]? They rage and leave. After saying how experienced he was and what keys he normally does and genuinely trying to help them - demon hunter goes "Go back to your own key level." and leaves. Priest continues to rage even harder because he doesn't have any excuses anymore. Mage goes "Big pulls on bursting week? Smart." With a priest. The bursting wasn't even an issue in the first place so it was just insanely confusing. Once again - don't think he was paying attention. We were actually doing pretty small pulls since it was a pug in a low key. Like packs to pack instead of double or triple pulls. It was just a 16 and that group was completely overkill for the dungeon. We could probably die 40 times and still time it. Even had a priest to counter the bursting if it was an issue but he had no idea how to use mass dispel and was using it on cooldown. I know that he was because he said he was. He of course made excuses. That is the M+ pugging experience. People giving up, messing up, blaming people who are doing it right because the people doing it wrong don't have a clue - and the moment the slightest bit of legitimate critism heads their way - they leave and ruin the key. And of course only the key holder has any sort of consequence regardless of what side of that they are on. We try to avoid pugging and basically don't pug when we actually have everyone for the first month or so of a season for that very reason. I don't actually know what could solve this because there are just so many fragile people out there. I think someone else in the comments said a blacklist system but I would propose it for a different reason - these people will blacklist themselves into a corner. They very often blame everyone else and have a very good chance to blacklist everyone else. Make it a 60 days "no going back" confirmation button that only stops you from seeing people in the _group finder._ It's better than the nothing that exists right now. Reporting doesn't do anything. Usually just gives a slap on the wrist when Blizzard actually does respond.
Well they are technically not doing anything wrong so you can't report them currently. But blizzard has said they will be taking a look at the problem moving forward. Until then it's up to us to put social pressure on these people causing this chaos. A little bit goes a long way.
@@heythereguysitsMetro Oh I meant when they actually do something wrong. Like the really just absolutely poisonous players. Nothing happens to them either.
I think there are a few things at play here that create this "GG go again/next" mentality with M+. 1) Blizzard does not punish leavers; They said they will implement some sort of penalty in the future, but I believe they were aiming for next expac, but no idea what patch during next expac. 2) Blizzard does not incentivize staying; Deplete your key? here's a downgraded item and/or less than half of the crafting mats compared to completing a key. A better option here would be to give the player a choice at the end of a dungeon. You can take a piece of loot or 12 crests, not both. This at least would slightly incentivize staying a bit more for those that still need to upgrade gear. 3) Sunk cost fallacy; Sunk cost is variable per person and as such, one person may see a wipe and compare it to previous experiences and just say "I'd rather go next than try to push a potentially depleted key." I've spent a good chunk of this season pugging across three characters at various M+ levels, with my highest being about 2.9k doing 20-25s and seeing a lot of what I just mentioned here. Lots of shaping up to do in the community, but it feelsbadman to wipe on what will likely already be a tightly timed key with a pug.
It's an elitest mentality that has grown like a cancer over time. A player gets into a 20+ key for the first time and see's a "good player" leave early flame the entire party in chat, and says hmm, I want to be this guy or this type of behavior is ok, then they do it a week later, recycling the cancer. We grew up with loyalty and a mentality to never give up, to finish what you start, etc unfortunately these morals were not instilled in everyone. Hence these situations. Every player watches the top guilds run these dungeons and somehow believe they are in that caliber and the elitest mentality grows. I want to make additional friends, make some memories, fight until we conquer the objective, its just a game at the end of the day. However, this just isn't the mentality of a lot of wow players. I love that you are bringing awareness to the issue this is the first step to making change and we positive folk appreciate it.
Glad its appreciated and do hope it can help. I think you are right about the idolization honestly. I hadn't fully considered that being a factor until now.
for someone like me who likes to pug. if you get too many untimed keys on your IO people wont take or be less likely to take you. I know many people that I hang out with and they do they same thing, look at some ones IO and be like oh, they have soo many untimed on this key not taking them.. not that they are learning and getting better.. those untimed must be their fault... helping people and sticking things out just doesn't seem to be the right thing to do any more.. i used to always stick around and help.. and now I only do it once and a while as I dont feel I can afford to.
Stupid mentality on both sides. You are still in failed keys, they just don't show up. Anyone with a brain knows some one who has zero depletes runs on their raiderio page is just a leaver. Good players learn from keys and get better every run.
@@heythereguysitsMetro i agree. i feel like if i dont play that game then i will be out( because i have been in the past). ive always wondered why failed keys are not listed. wouldn't that help ? maybe there is no way to track that.
I mean also right now, on keys above 20 I think the expectation is to leave if people think it is not going to be in time. so not having lots of untimed keys is the norm isn't it ?
@@KevinM0N blizzards API doesn't show info until the key is finished, nothing when the key is started. There are ways to do it, but raiderio is not actually interested in cleaning up the absolute mess they have created so don't expect that to change.
that being said id prefer to do things your way. sticking out to the last second and trying to pull off that clutch save. its fun .. not many people like you left it seems
I've already identified the issue 2 minutes into the video, that healer has -ragnaros next to his name. I myself have been assassinated by ragnaros players many times.
i always like to finish keys that are even remotely close to the timer b/c what if tuesday blizz is like "X instance timer is extended by 1 min". ... Now you get free score for sticking it out
I think in terms of the DH saying we don't have MD, I think he was just being a jerk. He waited all the while you ran up there, warlock set up a portal, and came back to say anything. I see this all the time, people WAIT for you to make the mistake and then flame you to the heavens for it, when it could have been prevented. I see it a lot as a tank myself, people just being rude for the sake of being rude.
Ya actually a really good perspective on that. I hadn't even looked at it this way, but you are right. He waited to argue about everything until it was too late.
you briefly mentioned this, but WoW pugging is the only multiplayer game I have ever played where someone can just leave in the middle of your game, completely fuck 4 other people over, waste up to 30 mins of your time, and not only does the leaver not get any sort of punishment, but the punishment actually goes to the LEADER of the group. I have completely stopped pugging keys and only do them with guildies. imo there NEEDS to be some sort of punishment, especially if the timer is still ticking
Ya likely will never be any way to punish people though. Both these things happen because of the way group forming works atm. Other games have set systems in place to form the group for you, and with that comes set rules you must adhere to. This is literally just any party of players you can form yourself, even without 5 full players. I don't think punishments will ever really come, but I do hope more incentives to get these guys out of this mindset of being so eager to leave.
Hey, I was the rogue in 5:25, I had accidentally pulled the caster pack by clicking through the ravager and BTEing the pack, as i said it was my fault in party chat anyways ggs was super close and sad
For me it comes down to being able to finish the key, because sometimes you know a healer/tank won't be able to do a certain boss (which can also not be their fault coz of low dps). But I don't get not finishing a key, that's just throwing away half an hour
Ya at the end of the day, this is really just pointless behavior. Especially in the first clip, the guy just walked away from success. If you aren't playing to try to succeed, then you really should reassess why you are playing in the first place.
The timer definitely adds some desire to reap the rewards (io, +1 key level), but a lot of people don't realize that you learn so much more on how to improve by finishing overtimed keys. Especially if you replay it then you can analyze yourself and see what you can do better the next time or what you did wrong during the run. But people are so fixated on the timer that they don't see other avenues of improvement that it just creates this toxic environment where people leave after one wipe. My guild has a night where we just run keys and try to do an 18 for the vault, our players vary over skill/knowledge of dungeons but we always finish the key so they can get the hang of it and improve even if it's just a little bit over time.
Right, ya obviously that's how progression works everywhere else in the game. Some how though, in M+ pugging, people don't want to make progress, they just hop from group to group until their current knowledge is enough to get carried by everyone else.
@@heythereguysitsMetro They do it when pugging raids too, you wipe on a boss once, even in a fresh group and fresh raid that just came out and they leave to join another group because they want instant gratification and dont care to learn the fight so they essentially end up leaving to repeat the same mistake they did again and again.
I wonder if these people realize the sunken cost. They already spent like 20 mins in the key, what's the point of leaving to save 5 mins and losing loot or braincells?
Ya obviously they aren't actually saving any time. You'd have to leave 6 keys that way to even save 30 minutes, equal to one timer. Just them trying to justify the sociopathic behavior.
i wouldnt have pulled flowers into boss with bursting, not worth. if a dps would have said pull flowers with boss i would have told him to shut the fuck up lol
With the first example it's all about psychology. The person leaves because he wants to be "in control". He knows that if he fails the key, it's ultimately his failure and since he cannot handle his own failure, he would rather leave and not be a part of that failure at all.
@@heythereguysitsMetro Thing is, he does not recognize leaving as failure. When he leaves he thinks to himself "im not finishing this key with them", kinda putting himself above you and thus not associating your failure with himself. Leaving keys is like a safety blanket for him, so that he doesn`t have to actually experience defeat. At least that`s what he is telling himself.
@@bancewaldmargonem4574 interesting perspective and I think you may be right. Because of how the game processes keys he may very well believe that if he just doesn't finish the key he doesn't fail it. That's actually a whole new thought now I have to reckon with on this topic. Gee thanks lol
I haven't done a M+since end of BFA. Mostly due to meta chasing toxicity and lack of decency from others. I'm very much a casual Andy/LFR person now, and my mental health is much better as a result.
For sure if it was bothering you that much I don't blame you. Sadly running away from the problem just makes the "toxic" players a higher percentage of the player pool. Eventually we will need to stand up for ourselves.
Had guy bail in everbloom +19 8-10min left after 3rd boss wipe. What pisses me off is people leave they take group chance of loot after. You still get chance of getting loot In completion. Its still worth finishing for people gearing upgrading.
Certainly anyone doing this in keys people are gearing up in are totally indefensible. Don't stand for it man. Let them know they are doing something that is not acceptable. If everyone who was upset by it did so, these guys would have to defend their bad behavior dozens of times a week and it would eventually break them.
That happens in LoL as well. If they miss one minion in the first 2 mins. They just wanna forfeit the match. No one wants to work for a win these days.
I stopped playing retail because of all of this stuff. Noticed I got so used to all the toxicity that I became a little toxic myself, which I did not enjoy at all. Blizzard has a big job fixing this before its too late (which it might be already)
Ya I feel ya. Hard not to fight fire with fire. Sadly when people quit all it does is make the problem people a higher percentage of the player pool. What we need to do is stand up for ourselves and let these guys know what they are doing is unacceptable.
I will have to agree, this season has people struggling to understand timing. I am not sure if its due to the nature of past keys being a bit more tight but this season is much more focused on just playing well and not rushing. Rise is the only key that is super tight in terms of time but the others are pretty fair.
Hi! So a recent experience I had was a +18 Rise leaver.. we had wiped once due to the healer never doing orbs before and we got it corrected before the 2nd try. Well we pull and I’m tanking and the giant ability that focuses where the tank is happened and the rogue just ran right through it and dies. I brez him and he leaves instantly. Well we still timed it with the 4 of us. Anyways- he whispers me to “kill myself” and “you’re a dogshit tank, uninstall” and just the constant spam. This rogue was 2800 score too. I don’t understand this “I fucked up but I’m going to make someone else feel really bad about themselves” mentality. I’ve had a few leavers this season but for some reason he just sticks out the most.
its a good experiment you're running here but as a general rule if you really care about your group's success sadly you gotta filter out the players that are more likely to grief / underperform in your key. Ragnaros and Azralon have been some of the biggest offenders in pugs since forever and while you can't really know how good or bad the people you invite are, i can assure you the players from those servers 9/10 times play 500 rating under what they have
Oh ya trust me I know. Have been talking about that since legion. Sadly no real way to do that. There just aren't enough keys or players. Almost every key has some one from a problem realm or a problem spec.
just a question from someone who barely finishes 20s as a healer. why do people leave keys ever? I understand if there is TRULY no point. 40 minutes in the dungeon. but what do you lose out on from overtiming? specifically in the lower dungeons. 27s you lose the IO and the achievement of doing it but in 20s you still get vault upgrade and items so Im just confused why people even leave in the first palce, especially when it isnt their key.
Maybe some one will genuinely give you an answer, but I have been asking this question for years and all I ever get is a bunch of jumping through mental hoops, avoiding the question, or sociopathic behavior. Basically there are three main reasons and they all come down to the same thing: The person ONLY cares about themselves, some times to such a degree that anyone remotely offending them even with their gameplay will cause them to quit. 1. The literal ONLY goal is upgrading the key, not a single thing else. So if that ever remotely comes into question, that player is gone. (That's the example you see in clips 1 and 3 here.) 2. Their goals aren't actually upgrading or anything like that, they are only there to top the DPS chart, so if you pull in a way that they get killed or are otherwise unable to maximize their DPS because they have to actually work, they will leave. (thats the example you see in clip 2) 3. They aren't there to carry you, so if they perceive you as inferior to them (despite the fact you both likely have the same score) they will leave. Obviously there are the few examples where there is an actual emergency or a straight flame war such that the key can't continue anyway. But from what I have seen, one of those are always the reason if they are NOT the group leader. Some times the group leader wants to attempt his key on a lower difficulty instead, which I try to respect, but I do still feel like is not okay if that wasn't made clear initially and it comes suddenly in the key. This all happens because the culture of the game breeds young and impressionable players into this mentality from the ground up. Actual adults or veteran players will know learning and progressing through out a run is a real thing, and is a necessary tool to improving as a player over a long period of time.
@@heythereguysitsMetro thanks for taking the time to respond. I definitely agree with your 3 points there because even ive seen the same things happening in my runs. I am about a month into playing WoW for the first time but im super competitve and I love the difficulty of dungeons and especially of pugging with people that are around the same level as me so I absolutely find it unfathomable that people will just leave for the smallest of reasons, when the reality is that the key was super doable. in my experience though, a few of my friends who have been playing since legion are like this. they just want to super pump groups for keys that dont need max level people and will give up mentally after one wipe or one mistake that was made. it definitely is a selfish way of thinking and they say that "its the way the game is" which i dont want to believe but it seems that M+ culture is in fact like you describe it. but your ideas for rewarding people for completeing keys would be absolutely great, incentive to stay is always always better than punishment for leaving. (although I believe punishment should be more severe than literally nothing happening to them at all) hopefully I get to the level of being able to do 25+s and up xD my brain is struggling to heal just 20s so to see you do these keys with what looks like minimal effort is super impressive to me and you have such a strong mental to keep going. super inspirational! keep it up and thanks again for replying!
We play keys in the same range and we both pug and there are times I disagree with some of the things you say. However I have had some change of heart I played a key where I felt that I played so poorley I would have left if I was not the one making mistakes. They carried my dead body and I ended up turning very clutch at the end. It's actually a problem I saw a tank leave on 24 because he said the dps was to low. we had no deaths.
Timed a 27 TOTT on tyran with 0.04 seconds to spare. We fucked up the first goblin pack skip and instead of gging, the tank instant took aggro and we did the whole gauntlet and timed the key by a split second. Ya never know.
i often say to the ppl 'let finish it for training' if we are close to a timeout and we are having difficulty the gauntlet is a perfect exemple of this ppl need practice and not leave before it's really a over dead key. shit like EB 3th boss or last boss everybody could need a lil bit more training as a healer this season it allow me to experience how hard is certain boss like always in EB the last boss hit way harder in a 25-26 tyra key it's surprising !
Very well said and a great example there. Bosses can vary wildly. Everyone could use the experience week after week on them. Especially these guys who have no idea how long or difficult bosses are lol
yeah me and my guildies earlier in the season just spent an hour wiping to the 2nd boss of fall in a 27 just seeing if we can do it and testing stuff and trying to perfect how we do it. just to work out how to best rotate stuff. we timed 28 fall both weeks now
I love the priest leaving, I've seen groups do a full wipe in waycrest manor 29/30 and still time it, hving to run from entrence to pig boss, through the left side.
The thing about throne of the tides, people saying: this is over so early in the key etc: There must have been some streamer or big personality in the community who said something like: If you spend this much time getting to the first boss, you have a deplete. Just ran a 25 throne, pulled the 3rd boss with 10 minutes left on the clock, but the keyholder left the second I pulled the boss after typing every 2 minutes that this key is done. It's just so stupid
Its just that these guys THINK they know something when in reality all that does is make them worse players. Next time just whisper the guy and challenge him on that. Tell him you still have a chance there, and unless it was his key, he has no right to leave until the timer is for sure over. Remind him, especially as a non-tank, he does not know what is coming next, so there is no reason to be leaving 10 minutes left on timers.
Damn, I'm watching this video thinking like "yeah, he makes some good points" until I noticed the name of your DK looked too familiar. That's when I realized we ran a BRH last week that was timed with like 15 seconds left due to the hallway being a complete shitshow in Sanguine. Small world LOL
I'm tanking with my team. We've ran into this when we don't have all 5 online for a night and need to grab people from the queue, and it's so annoying. We actually embrace the depletes. Once the timer is out of reach, we take a moment and start talking about stuff we want to try out for the rest of the dungeon. Without the time pressure we may want to try new pulls, skips and we even had people go out and swap talents to try out a different build. It's great, it basically turns the key into an experimental run. People leaving is so detrimental. Usually the last boss is the hardest one in the dungeon, and it's very visible that people in the PuG queue usually have way less experience on it. Just comparing people's play from the first to the last boss you notice it intsantly.
That is so well said honestly. I'd love to see a stat on how many kills of the last boss people have vs times they entered the dungeon. It's so apparently so many people have no clue how long they take either haha
At a certain point up the ladder (Probs around 27/28s right now) there is a mutual respect for each others keys, and you see a lot less of this. But that’s because there are far less keys being put up, and if you burn too many bridges by being a POS, than you are done pushing. How you push that onto the rest of the player base is hard. I do think requiring coms stops a lot of toxicity/giving up early as well. I think the general player base forgets we are all humans behind our keyboards. And people often won’t say half the shit they type. And feel more connected to the key. That’s my experience…
Ya I have heard that much myself and you are likely right about the issue being related to the inability to jump from key to key. That's why these guys act like this way, because they can get away with it and jump to the next group like nothing happened.
This is the mega downside to cross server grouping, name changing and easy re-rolling. You did stuff like this in EverQuest and your reputation was trash and that’s the end of high end gaming for you unless you go through the ungodly long process of leveling a new character and never telling people who you were previously.
No where near your caliber of play as a tank, but I sure learn a ton. Thanks for your hard work, and please keep at it. I consider you like a general, as in the military, for us tanks :)
Let's get to eb, my analyze: Even without md, healer can dispels himself and stays alive, dh won't die due to leech+ can also netherwalk. Warlock won't simply dies by hs and mitigation. Evoker can starts to heal a little but let's say there's no barrier, mass barrier, pain suppression etc so yes evoker dies. You had battle ress ready so it was like one dead and nothing so key breaker happened. In the end they died and didn't accept ress, yes wipe it then, will be faster than going with one dps. On first tyrannical week in a 20 we had to continue 4 man from trash mobs in mage boss to end of the run, we managed to clear the trash, kill mage boss and kill final boss and we were all around 470 ilvl and we timed it. We didn't do some magical dps, the dungeon is easier on second half and people still leave on start.
nice video I always think that its better to start a grp telling that you need to finish the key as primary and second to get it on time. ppl want to leave at the first wipe (I play healer)
There are a lot of ways the group leader can try to solve it, but still at the end of the day people do what they want when they want. I've seen and tried it all. Even "weekly no leavers" still have disbands.
this whole situation can be fixed just by not having keys be degraded until you actually run out of time in the dungeon, should be able to retry as much as you need on the same key level
I do support keys not downgrading. But I think there are better solutions for the problem to go away permanently. We obviously also want to stop this strange mentality where people are leaving upgradeable keys too right?
I have had a hardline stance on committing to the group I start anything with since vanilla. I'll stay an hour over the timer, idgaf. If I notice someone not doing the mechanic right and it causes a wipe, I'll take the 60 seconds it takes to explain it to them instead of whining that their knowledge isn't as robust as my own. However, I've completely abandoned pugging in DF season 1 because of the "culture" that's taken over the mythic+ scene. What was once an annoying but infrequent occurrence (someone leaving early) has become the norm. It really seems like everyone goes into the key EXPECTING it to fail these days. I really appreciate your channel and the statistical analysis you bring to the discussion. Kudos!
Thanks so much! And ya I totally agree, it seems like most players join a key looking to leave as soon as possible. Constantly I run into groups with at least one playing saying gg constantly and asking if we are done even if there is still plenty of time.
This is a joke I just played a throne of tides they left off the first pull because we burned lust and the tank did not hold the aggro. Entire team disbanded less than 1 minute into the key. Throne of tides is toxic.
Geez, ya that's silly. I see that a lot about aggro on the first pack but it's usually the dogs fixated on people on the casters lol. There are only like 4 targets in that whole hallway that actually need to be attacking the tank.
Maybe it's just people having absolutely no feel for the timers based on previous seasons? This is probably the most lenient season timer wise, where you can do most of dungeons, have catastrophic wipes and still time it with minutes left on a timer.
I don't think so, simply because these guys are literally typing numbers of time spent on bosses or encounters that are factually incorrect. The thing is, if they were just a bit more humble, they wouldn't do this at all. Kill times are never the same. You can never be sure until you pull it.
@@heythereguysitsMetro It's bizarre how people pull random numbers out of their ass and try to convince you of them like they're defending their dissertation or something. Surely it takes the same amount of time to just complete the key and see if it's timed or not
I've been questioning this leaving the keys if not timed mentality all the way from BFA when this started. I did stop playing higher keys because of this and started to play pvp instead because there isnt anyone who leaves arena before someone dies and arena is finished. Ofc now at solo shuffle there is this same quit mentality if this goes south but we cant do anything about it. Im still trying to be positive about the keys but its so frustrating when ppl leaves like that. And usually the person who leaves first is actually the one who is dying most in that key...
Ya does tend to be the worst player the most often. We just need to not let people think they can get away with it without push back. Challenge them and tell them it's not okay. If everyone who was upset by it did this, these people would be fielding dozens of whispers a day and eventually would crack under that pressure to defend their actions.
It occasionally happened in BfA but it only really started to be an issue when they changed the scoring rules to no longer award any meaningful score to depletes above 20.
I advice you to install and configure OmniCD. If I were you I would not be pulling flowers on top of boss with no MD just because I do not trust pugs to open their eyes and stop rubbing over their numbers on this boss It helps a lot in other ways too. I can sometimes pull real big if I see all big damage and defensive CDs are up, or pull less than I normally would do if everything is on CD. Helps you to win time or prevent potential wipes as a tank. Gives you even more agency over the chance of an upgrade.
while doing a key on my lock that i only login to maybe once per week just to get a key done i had this healer that join leave after one wipe. he just said yeah this key is def going to deplete before we finish it, it was a rise i know the timing is tight but even if one wipe would cause us not to complete the key in time but yeah the guy just afked for a good 3mins and then randomly left. was only a 13 but no one in the group could understand why this guy needed to complete the key in time since it was such a low key.
I am currently 2500+ score this season and pretty much pug every dungeon. Have all +18s done and want to start getting into +20s. Out of all my runs I can prob count on 1 hand how many times people have left or we didnt time it. It seems to be a huge problem in the very high keys. I honestly couldnt imagine pugging 25s and above, seems like an absolute nightmare.
Funny, I had something similar happen in a 24 EB the other day where the tank left right before third boss because he, and I quote, "Don't want to boost". What's sad was the run was fairly clean, we was good on timer and everyone did their part. When he had left, I messaged him asking why he left, and that it wasn't cool of him to just dip like that when that key was easily timeable, and he said "I don't have time to boost. I'm doing 80% of everything in here, stops, interrupts". Safe to say that the claim was not true according to the information on details, and he was just full of himself. This gonna stick with me, never had anything like this happen to me before, lol.
@@imshloodoo1 that's funny too because as the tank you should love to do this. That's how you climb. Put in work that turns depleted keys into upgrades. Meanwhile that dude is doing the opposite lol
i mean why is not a single person baiting the arcane orb in the everbloom key? it always goes to the farthest target, so kinda weird to kite it back into ranges ( i realize you don't want to add anything else on accident) and them not recognizing that the orb will now insta trigger the explosion. ability timers make everbloom so much easier, you can grip charges(ragers/wasps) before it does the initial dmg, see when next orb will spawn or when the fireaoe is rdy, so you delay it by either kicking early (mob casts another fireball that you kick late) or late(aoe is available, you just kick late to delay the aoe) anyway just finish the key, just to see how much time was missing
The Demon Hunter just has extreme main character syndrome. Because he's "carrying" there's no point to reset. You know he would be typing WIPE if he was dead.
Ya absolutely, that's the mentality for sure. You can tell just how he INSTANTLY freaks out about threat the second it happens. Like he was waiting to snap.
Sadly I don't think that really does anything here. There are just too many people to block them all. Their behavior needs to be rewritten by the game's incentive structures, OR by our social pressure for them to act properly.
Just had the party lead of a 25 atal leave after 4 minutes into the dungeon with no wipes because “sorry guys were not going to time it.” I mean it’s his key so he has that choice, but I really would have liked the practice and my time back lol.
@@heythereguysitsMetro Looking forward to your take on things. You've been kinda my rock in stormy weather if it comes to tanking and not giving up on people. Thanks again.
Right now I'm at ~3350 as havoc, and I'm pugging 26-27s this week. I'm more nervous to put my key up to pug now. One thing I've noticed is that there is definitely a huge difference in caliber of player you get signing up between doing a 25 vs even a 26. It is crazy that I can do a 27, but can't carry a 24 or even a 23 enough to make sure my key doesn't fall down far. If my key falls to a 25, I'm immediately annoyed because I know it's very likely that it doesn't go well with pugs (and then 24 is even worse). Luckily I pug a lot with at least 1 friend, usually my aug friend. Once I stopped pugging with aug pugs I noticed a huge difference in depletes or toxicity. But 25 and below are just a bad time. I'm glad I'm basically past that. Only way to fix it is to collect bnets in my opinion. Inviting people onto voice chat and meeting others that are good and/or problem solve with you is actually a really great experience when pugging.
hello everyone...ive met my own goal at timing all 20s with both my chars and i decided to end it here...i recognize that current season power grid can get you +3 of what you normally have been doing thus increasing the toxicity levels of some of the op class enabling them to be toixc af when pugging with that said the only thing you can do for your mental health and fun is play with friends as much as possible ...its what ive been doing since legion and in between i am pugging to satisfy my gameplay thirsts...but that has also taken a toll to my psych when compairing pug with playing with friends... i hope you all have a great day!
I'm glad you are having fun, but sadly running away from this problem only makes the "toxic" players a bigger percentage of the playerbase. It needs to be met head on and those of us bothered by it need to stand up for ourselves and let these players know what they are doing is not okay. It only happens so much because they do it key after key and no one says or does anything to push back against them.
Wish more people just didn't care so much about the timer. Like you still get loot, you still get count for the vault, and you can always try again after. I'm not saying don't try and time the key, but don't ruin a run or potential community reputation/relationships over it either. At the end of the day it's just a game and you can always keep pushing.
Right and leaving 5 minutes early does nothing for your ability to play the game. Just be a normal adult and respect the others who were kind enough to invite you to the group you just ruined.
For the first boss EB, looking at it from a healer pov... with no MD its doable but people need to be ready, and proactive with how to live. Aug rescue shield + regen should be enough. if he doesn't die immediately, at some point he has infinite healing. I imagine a DH going into an EB has netherwalk or something to try and survive bursting stacks. Priest probably has barrier, pain supp, single target dispel. Don't think i see AMZ as an option? idk DK talents. Lock and DH are incredibly tanky and might be able to live. Problem is there are 2 solutions... the boss does no damage so no defensives need to be assigned to stuff. So the group can 1) kill everything together very quickly, pop every cd in the book, health pots, soulstones, and heal. Doable but hard. option 2) split the trash, stop dps, do whatever is necessary. evoker can go in and breath some out or something, kill half, reset, kill other half. Your frames don't show buffs, but I didn't see a rescue shield, barrier, or netherwalk popped, and things got extended pixel perfectly. (timer hits 0 seconds 3 times going from 8 to 10). And you were blasting the adds too as tank. Literally targetting them. Seemed like you were distracted and not thinking about the potential wipe there before it happened... same as the other guys. Most of these issues can be resolved on the fly, and it's why I enjoy healing. But often people are more worried about assigning blame than thinking through to improve, so they leave keys and don't develop the skills needed to save them. And that often means "i think it's depleted, but I want to fight the last boss to see how much damage it does, how long it takes, etc." Randoms struggle with that. My philosophy over m+ is the only person I have any control over, is myself. So even if the other guys troll, what could I have done better? I have yet to encounter a situation where I look at a vod and can't think of anything. So if this key depletes? the next one won't end the same way.
The clip after that... no excuse really. Evoker and priest both had plenty of time to to move out but forgot. Died, got tilted, left. and made up excuses for it to justify leaving.
I'm sure there are a lot of variables but I ran this key a lot this week and did not have these issues there. I think it's just a matter of people not being prepared for it.
Im literally scared of running twin guardian at this point, even tho I don't yeet my teammates anywhere just want to apply the shield on the spot, they yell at me to never touch them.
Healer role is harder for sure. But no tank is obviously the one who has the most eyes on him. Every single combat starts with the tank. You can do a key without a healer but you can't do a key without a tank.
For the evoker at 14 minutes they have a talent that gives you 30k absorb shield if you rescue someone so its possible that was his idea to get the shield cuz I slowed it down and watched and it looked like the arcane blast hit him so it proceed his cheat so, I think he was trying to get the absorb shield to survive the blast and just ended up pulling the priest into the orb. At least that the only reason I can think of
Its possible, but that would be an insane mistake, because range typically bait the orb. He should have used it on the paladin who is 2 yards away from him, not the only person actually baiting the orb lol.
@@heythereguysitsMetro yeah that's an insane mistake to make tbh. That button is very hard to accidentally use so the only thing makes sense is he wanted the shield and I assume he has a specific target focused probably the priest. That's what I do on my evoker is when I do use the button I always focus someone generally before hand since it's easier and quicker so that's what I'm thinking he did. The only other possible explanation is him trolling lol
Things will change. They have to. I'm not sure what Blizzard will do, but the whole situation of key depletion for going over time will either be revamped drastically or just removed. Maybe a separate currency to be obtained and spent on upgrading your key? And then maybe this currency is only obtainable on dungeon completion?
Ya I really want to see the currency system honestly. I'm fine with it just being merged into the flightstone thing. But a separate currency may be better.
Think blizzard should just get rid mythic+ timer or add regular mythic difficulty into random dungeon finder queue. I think the timer just causes toxic.
Ya man, worst thing in the world. It has totally put me off doing my own key ever. I can't stand how selfish people are when I chose them over the dozens of other people I had the choice of.
Haha the bursting issue is one I had on a low key with my alt. Couple guys kept blasting, stacking it over 6, and blaming the healer. Excellent case of toxic DPS. They kept pulling behind my back and the only way I would find out is suddenly the healer would be dead. Over count because it is a mystery at that point what got pulled and what didn't, but it is "bad tank bad healer." Guess who had 5 interrupts all run? (WM if you're wondering)
I've always thought there should be some sort of punishment system in place for those that bail on keys before completion.. maybe some kinda check mark goes against their name kinda like an IO score but in the negatives.. so when they sign up for a run the person forming can see they have bailed on keys.. or maybe some thing that deducts points off their IO reducing their score
Ya sadly no way to differentiate between the malicious leavers and the acceptable ones right now. They would need to create a system where pugging and pushing were separated, like they did with soloqueue in PVP.
Thanks so much for saying that! I really cant stand how much negativity there is over topics that are meant to be entertaining, so its easy for me to be positive in the face of that wave!
shoot me a pm if ya want to play. I just started this season playing shadow and disc! Honestly im around a 2k player bur you seem fun! Learning as I go.
I’m the type of person that is a real people pleaser and do care about what people think of me, probably more than I should. Leaving a group early is so opposed to my mentality, it’s offensive to do so. It’s sad that some people are so selfish.
The mentality of leaving a key after a wipe comes probably from DF season 1 where at 20+ a wipe usually meant a depleted key, now that gear has inflated characters and that keys at that level are quite easier, a wipe is FAR from a deplete on 20+ but the idea of (20+ is hard, no wipe) sticks in peoples minds, In my opinion.
@@rkale77 because this mentality is a short term dream. They think leaving and jumping from key to key is a successful way to play but long term you gain no actual knowledge from it. It's usually a trap people fall into because they think it's the best way to climb and they are usually just learning about how fun that could be. Obviously some one who has played for years would know eventually you climb high enough that you need to learn what you missed along the way.
I think a lot of this behaviour can be put down to many people not playing for fun but for rewards. I see this in other games as well. People are quick to surrender a game where its unsure if they win. I have seen many of them argue that they don't want to waist their time and rather try another run/ game where it is easier to win. I think this is a bigger topic though. I have seen this from people who are conviced that they know everything and that they couldn't learn from a lost game/ failed run. I have also seen people who argued that they have literally zero fun when they lose a game. I also believe that the fact that we all get older and have less time plays a role in this. And we can't forget the fact that its easier then ever to queue for this type of content without actually interacting with the people you are playing with. Im basically saying that its easier to dodge a run if you don't talk to the people in voice chat and if you don't need to play with them next week. I would love it if someone studied this in depth. I think that we gamers experienced a mentality shift in the last 5-10 years and modern game design trends play a big role in this. I think there is a reason for why we forgot how to have fun even when we lose.
Its something I am super curious about as well, and have been studying it, observationally, for about 10 years now. I think you are right about the fun thing, I just don't think they are AWARE they aren't playing the game for fun anymore. Their brains are now addled by the accessibility of it all, when it comes to making incentive based decisions. They are basically addicted to the result now, no longer the fun. And anything between the result and the fun doesn't matter much to them. Including, treating other human beings as equals, sadly.
You can actually see the evoker start to hearth out at 17:00 before he I guess decides to kamikaze instead lol. People are wild. I had a wipe on big pull right after triad in waycrest in an 11 alt run....dude left. Like...bruh it's an 11 and dps was insanely fine.
The DH really thinks with his meters instead of what is needed to achieve the larger objective. And then fails to see that if you just down two or three flowers using just Single Target DPS, the whole group lives, maybe barely but survivable. Happens a lot in random keys, some S tier DPS going loose on AoE while there are few priority targets that make the life of the tank and healer very hard if not taken down quickly. I don't play classic but sometimes miss doing dungeons the way you did when all packs were first marked and there was a kill order in order to make the pull.
Love the way you put that. "Thinks with the meters." Super accurate. Probably why he doesn't want to wipe and pull again either. Thinks he is able to solo dps a boss like that lol... But ya, you are totally right. If he just actually targeted a flower that would have gone a long way.
Yeah if there is 3:30 min and you have the last boss, the 2 mobs in front of it and this mob on 30% hp you can call it a gg. Last boss is 2:15 - 3:15 depends on the dps and if you have bl. And the mobs are about 1min. With the movement b/w the packs 3:30 is gg 4 min is a good chance.
I can only speak for the second pull being a healer. But not having one of your best cd + the delayed bursting is nasty. 4 stacks can be managed without a major cooldown as a healer, so when you see them about to drop off, usually you wouldnt go overboard since next burst might go higher. But being delayed not only at 4, but 8 and 9, I feel like everyone is in the shitter at that point. I don't blame the healer going into tunnelvision and takes a breath after that. But I've been wondering, can AMZ counter bursting?
I'm sure it can, to some degree. But I haven't had any healer struggle to do this pull all week other than this fellow. I think it's more the dps just not using any defense either tbh. But I don't see why healing this would be hard when there is absolutely nothing else to heal. But that's mostly because I have seen so many handle it easily.
One of the reasons why many run fail is that people rush too much like they are on MDI, while there is actually no reason for that. I have seen so many chain pulls that caused a wipe, while there was 0 reason to chain pull. Also tanks pulling while not full group is there and making a mess. I once wiped fall 28 because tank did not want to wait 5 seconds for healer who died, pulled and got dead in few seconds, and full group wipe. So if tanks would learn to think with their own head instead of copying things from top streamers the runs would be much less riskier. You dont need to make same risky decisions on 25 for instance as someone who is trying to time 30.
@@heythereguysitsMetro no matter if healer's death was his ownn fault or it was unavoidable death, tank should have waited, 28 fortified key is not where you want to pull pack without healer, he got melted :)
@@aleksaas My point was, you are fixated on the tank making the mistake, but there was another mistake that I am willing to wager was just as problematic. That's what sucks about tanking. They do the heavy lifting for 90 percent of the key, and make one mistake and people are ranting about it on youtube videos. So to amend your original comment - one of the reasons keys fail is because people make mistakes. We are here encouraging people to not worry about those mistakes as much and just learn what you can from each one and improve long term.
@@heythereguysitsMetro you missed my point. I do know that people make mistakes and I dont have a problem with that. I have problem with tanks overpulling and rushing all the time just because they saw someone doing it on 31 key. So they increase the risk of people making mistakes and wipes happening. They dont understand key is still timeable even without taking those risks. And this is not mistake. It is just the way people think, like 95% of tanks dont understand that. And then you have that 5% who actually understand the game and know exactly what to pull depending on key level, affix, timer and group composition. And will not risk when there is no need.
I had a run that was just a weekly 20 Rise that the healer didn't realize they were queued as a healer, they were upset but they ended up swapping after we wiped on the first boss, we only +1'd but hey better than a rage quit from anyone.
yeah, after we wiped once and some convincing he swapped and we still timed it, good experience that i expected everyone to just leave on @@heythereguysitsMetro
Imo a key is never over until its over and unless the group as a whole calsl it or IRL happens and someone has to go - thats understandable. Otherwise, I'd rather keep trying and timed or not - rather get possible loot and finish instead of having wasted XYZ amount of time and consumables for nothing.
Ya, crazy that you have to preface that as its your opinion when its just legitimate fact haha. That's how messed up the community is, that they think its not worth trying when there is still fight left to give. Wasting time sucks, but failing is 10x worse in my eyes. Some people just don't get it.
I just had the most absurd, petty leaver in M+ I've ever seen (I've been doing casual m+ since it released in Legion). Literally yesterday: My gf and I log onto 425ilvl alts and decide to knock out a couple +2's - +5's to get some alt-vaults. We queue into a +2 Darkheart Thicket. Everyone gets to the dungeon, Demon Hunter tank says to wait to dps until he gets all the trash grouped on the bear. He pulls it all, groups it up, I pop lust, we cleave it all down. Nobody dies and there is quite a bit of lust leftover. Mage says "what a waste of lust. Goodluck with this guy" and leaves the dungeon. As if the timer was even an obstacle in a +2... or if there was even really a lust that could partially be unwasted in a 2 given how fast everything died. We all laughed about it and brought in another dps, reset the instance, and 3-chested it. Silly stuff. Bonus question for any repliers: What is one spec that isn't in the meta which you wish was in the meta?
Geez, THOSE are the keys you need to record and send in to me! I would have LOVED to review that one. In terms of your question, Holy Paladin 100 percent. Way undervalued right now imo.
@@heythereguysitsMetro My shadowplay hasn't been working lately. I did try to clip it but option for "save" was just greyed out. I got some screenshots of chat but that barely captures the speed at which that mage gave up lol
These people leave because staying and improving requires them to acknowledge their own flaws. It's easier to leave than to admit you're bad. As for the DH I'm sure he would have bitched at you even if you did it his way cause then he'd see it's actually a waste of time.. DH is strong but it's not faster than having 2 more dps for essentially the whole fight.
as you say there is just so much to learn from finishing the key even if you know you aren't going to time it. why not just do the last boss/bosses and get more practice even if it is going to be a deplete? you can try do some whacky diff more risk averse strat if you know it isn't going to be timed just to sell if it works for the hell of it. legit nothing to lose apart from 10 more mins of your time...
Right ya, and given how long even forming a key takes, 10 minutes is really nothing unless you are leaving dozens of keys a week this way. The ironic thing here is, these guys likely have no idea how long the last boss takes because they constantly leave before pulling it. This is partially why last bosses are so lethal for groups. The amount of pulls people have on it per season is generally so low compared to first bosses, all due to the leaver epidemic.
I’ve heard of people leaving within the first two or three minutes because they didn’t think the DPS could handle it. Meanwhile, the same group handled it earlier. You’re right I don’t understand why people are so easy to quit and why they would want to quit? I mean no, you didn’t time the key, but you still get some semblance of credit for doing so even if it’s not cheated. Why would you wanna waste all of that time?
Right, and the bigger issue is they are giving up any potential learning and robbing others of it too. In these cases, these guys THINK they are correct about something, but if they just tried what they said they wouldn't do, they would know their numbers are incorrect.
@@heythereguysitsMetro I would be very curious to see the aged demographic of the people that are the quitters. And the only reason I say that is I’m in my 40s and a lot of the people that I do keys with are also in their 40s. And I know my kids generation are a league of quitters. There is no resilience with their generation and it drives me crazy. I wonder if it’s just an age thing or impatience or they’re trying to hit some imaginary timeline they’ve set up for themselves and if they think that you’re not gonna get them there fast enough, they’re gonna find someone who will?
@@ItsVarezen I initially thought it was an age thing, but I think its just a coincidence. I think the people doing this aren't that much younger than you or I. I would imagine in their early 20s, if I had to guess. They act that way because the internet has set them up to be like this their whole life. We grew up learning lessons about respect and patience and had to work harder for our success. But when you grow up with a cell phone and all this other tech, you expect every answer to every problem to be something you can just ask your phone to answer for you. Then that mentality bleeds over into ever thing you do. I hope I'm wrong, because it means the doctors and caregivers taking care of us when we are older are going to be an even more concentrated form of these people with this mentality taken even further. Not a pleasant thought.
we definately need some kind of negative consequences for leaving. Like 1 hour debuff for not being able to join other key unless 3/5 ppl in the group accept /surrender
@@lyusinator Maybe. I go back and forward on it all. It would first of all be a lot of work, and if they were going to put that level of work in, I would rather do something more concrete to fix the problem, other than cheesy systems that lock players into groups. But at first glance it might not be obvious, but that would likely mean (just like soloQ) there would be a totally different score and progression metric. It would also be much harder to do keys this way because you'd have no control over your group comp. Presumably this system would not require a keystone given that, otherwise who would even want to do it this way? So then how do you deal with pushing vs "qualification?" At the end of the day if there was some magic bullet there, it might be fun. But it would be such a major adjustment and a ton of work from Blizzard, I don't think it would be worth it.
The Evoker suicide move... he probably wanted to rescue the healer after arcane orb was out, to "help" dodging it, but miss timed the cast. He was ashamed to admit it. Funny clip.
Yup it’s terrible and makes pushing a nightmare right now. We had one wipe in EB 25 because someone bodied the triple stinger pack and we wiped Someone just dropped “gg” and left, when the key was still easily timetable. I was a few seconds from timing a 26 EB this week with 18 deaths, and massive time losses to dps being down for long pulls or bosses
Something I notice tanks do is use an ability that isn’t taunt to pull a mob that might be too close. Taunt will make extra mobs not be pulled like in your 2nd video. I suggest trying it! It also makes it so that bursty dps wont take aggro initially on that mob you focus first.
As a tank, we'd prefer to sometimes save our taunts for the free mobs that get pulled off of us rather than taunt the primary target. The relationship and responsibility of tank and dps should be mutual. The dps should not open up on a solitary mob 0.0001 seconds into a pull either. And all too often the 3 dps are each opening up a can of whoopass on 3 different targets
@@mcshamkraken4448 I tank as well and I would suggest trying it because your taunt will come off cd by the time it reaches and you need it again. And you won't have things be accidently pulled that are patrolling near other mobs. :}
Also 12:08 dispels are not the problem it’s healing through put and dps needing to use defensives bette. Also the Aug evokes can help with dispels. DH and warlock should never die there also warlock is built like a truck and can just about live anything and DH darkness or any number of defensive would live. And with the warlock everyone should have health stone and healing potions like this shouldn’t ever be a wipe. My guess is the 2 dps are more focused on the damage numbers than making sure they move out of what’s killing them on the floor.
10:54 one thing too destruction warlock is a very slow not mobile class built like a turret he died standing in bad casting chaos bolt when he should have been moving and rain if fire spam
And bursting when stacks get very high on the first boss the dps should have been on boss cleaving and staggering the mobs they kill instead of aoe dps and the DH doubling down on his class having to do aoe. Is very bad mental for the pug you had if he wants to time that key he will have to do what is required of him and if he has to stop aoe to stay alive then he can not aoe.
to be fair, as a tank, you should be tracking party cooldowns, mass dispel included, pulling those lashers onto the boss without MD is on you, but the attitude of the group is poor, so i feel for you.
No need to track anything. As explained, I have done the pack without a priest many times this week. Its not dangerous, as its the only damage in the whole phase for the DPS. They just needed to pay attention.
I did a 24 throne yesterday. I genuinely thought it was over time, but we persisted. We timed it by 2 seconds. Its never over until its over.
Very well said. If everyone did that we would all be more successful.
@@JumboCod91 rise got some nice changes this week. But ya throne sucks because there are just so many dangerous enemies in there, it's hard to pull aggressively enough to make up time.
If someone in our group says "I don't think this is time able?" we always say "play like it is anyway"
Good way to handle it for sure.
sometimes it's not timeable with normal pulls. But I've done some of the craziest last boss pulls in order to time keys that were "not timeable" according to most players. but sometimes when there is no time left you have to pull 3 trash packs onto the last boss and it's either make or break, nothing risked, nothing gained. Also Augs are boosted.
those are the best keys when you think it's not timeable, but then you make it happen.. super fun
Ya man I feel like that's true everywhere in life. When you succeed where you expect to fail its a bigger emotional response than when you just expect to win and still do anyway.
Man, that DH's reaction to the wipe in everbloom is just the kind of stuff that burns me out on tanking... like bursting is a DPS mechanic but somehow it's the tank's fault they can't control themselves?
Ya pretty funny. Dude is trying his hardest to blame me for just about anything. Threat when we are wiping. Trying to convince me not to pull something after its already in the room. Trying to convince me not to die when the boss is at 85 percent with 1 dps alive.
That's the stuff that makes tanking so hard honestly.
Bursting is obviously a healer mechanic.. Just heal it O:) (sarcasm in case it goes over someones head)
Somebody has to take responsibility in their mind, I guess. The pull was already happening, MD was clearly down and they 9-stacked this shit anyways. No damage phase up on boss yet from what I could see there? Just Boss + Flowers. It was 100% hinging on two things: 1.) Metro living the debuff stacks + boss. 2.) Not overcooking the bursting stacks for no reason.
As usual, the modern day DPS troglodytes decided that, MD is down, the flowers are on the Boss, it was clearly Metros fault for doing such a pull and coercing them into coldly killing them all in such a manner that bursting would stack to a lethal dose. I guess the modern zoo ape dps brain has a very simple understanding of how Bursting functions. Whatever the Tank pulls, it dies and if what the tank pulled generated too many stacks, well.. pull smaller, we can't possibly shift focus or hold for a quick second, right? RIGHT? There clearly were no options left!
@@adrianreichelt7057 tbf the flowers die really fast and it's very hard in big flower pulls not to get overstacked on bursting, but it doesn't really look like they even tried :P
@@adrianreichelt7057 Ya DH literally said that, that he can't possibly not kill them all together like that.
What's maybe not obvious here is I did this pull 10+ times that week and we got to 8-10 stacks most times, but no one died.
This group just handled everything about it poorly. The priest and aug do not dispel anyone, and the other DPS do not do anything to help themselves survive it.
But at the end of the day, its the attitude and indignance that we are showcasing here.
The game is meant to be difficult, so I am always shocked when players are unable to think through that difficulty, and just blame some one else for the mistakes being made, as if that person (who usually is the same progression level as them) is just totally new with no experience in what they are doing.
My group had so many keys like this, we noticed saying 'gg' after a wipe is a stupid mentality and we started saying 'nee it's not dead' even when the key was actually dead, as funny as it sounds this improved our number of key we timed, we had a 25 EB timed with 300milliseconds above the timer
That's badass, and really encouraging to hear honestly. If more people competed that way, everyone would have much higher success rate. Its a hard mentality to get into, but quitting is obviously not helping you progress, so gotta do it eventually.
I had a +20 VP pre-nerf on Tyrannical last season timed by .008 seconds
I lost it at the football analogy lol! I agree 100% with your perspective. People are so quick to jump the gun and leave over a single wipe.
Ya it's really hard to understand where it comes from but has to just be peppered with that generational entitlement that we see everywhere. No true interest in facing hardship and overcoming it?
found your vids from Growl's channel .. your compilation of all the m+ leavers was fun to watch
i main a tank and i've pretty muched stopped pugging anything higher than 15. the main problem i run into is that so many pug players either don't speak english, don't pay attn to party chat, or just don't care, and it's impossible to communicate. granted, i live in the EST time zone and i do a lot of runs late night/early morning. but if i need to run something higher to get my score up or improve my vault i'll get with some guildies in discord to make everything smoother.
also, you made a strong point about people wanting to quit as soon as anything goes wrong. not sure why so many people are such babies about wiping in m+. just click rez, acknowledge what to do to prevent another wipe, and PRESS W
Ya it's so bad you have people leaving keys that are upgrades. Makes you wonder why they even play.
Let’s all say it together. Ragnaros, azralon, Sargeras, the list goes on. Vote them off our servers
I feel like in keys up to 20 leaving is much less of an issue though unless the key is hard out of time. Most people are either in it for the vaul or for gear so they will stick around even if it takes 5-10 minutes longer. Insta leaving because it is not timed is mostly a high key thing were depletes above 20 no longer give any score and items are really only an upgrade if you roll leech or avoidance.
I like that matra : “Just press W.” Like just keep swimming. Persist, move forward, onward and upward.
This is great awareness building for people. In my case, playing as a Tank, Healer or DPS, I never leave the keys. Even if it is not upgraded, you learn from each new run, so for me it is imperative to finish it always.
Ya, and that learning never stops. Every level you go higher, with a different affix each week, means there's always something new to learn to maximize in your runs. Especially as the tank and healer.
the last time I left a key was a ruby life pools tyrannical 16 the holy priest just couldn't heal it or survive it and I had forced some people to wait for me for about 50minutes to do a key. I gave the priest some tips before I left since I normally healed though
Love the message you put out man, you definitely changed my perspective on pugging keys and respecting other people in keys more!
So glad to hear that. If everyone cared even a little bit more about the person who invited you to the key, pugging would be so much better.
There are two maxims or sayings from my childhood that I believe apply here and seem to have been lost to time. 1) You learn more from a "loss" than you do a "victory". Analyzing our losses allows us to grow by highlighting our mistakes. If you only experience wins then you will never improve because you will not think you need to. And if you only want to play if you can win you are cutting short your opportunity to learn and get better for the next time. I guarantee these people who are abandoning keys so early are also abandoning the knowledge they could have gained from being able to critically analyze even the part of the run that they did do. Because to them it is just garbage that they throw away and forget in their minds immediately since "only upgrading matters" no need to pay attention to a disband, right? If they put in that extra 5-10 minutes to finish the key they might actually value it enough to learn from their mistakes but sadly I don't think they ever will. and 2) Say it forget it, write it regret it. Essentially things you put down in writing can come back to bite you in the butt whereas it is a LOT easier to move on from and have everyone forget about the silly and stupid things you only say. Now with the advent of the internet and game streaming and recording this saying has been magnified a million fold. The asinine things these people say and do is recorded forever and thanks to you is being shared with a plethora more people than would ever have seen it before. And it will never go away, but these people seem to not realize that and that will ultimately be their downfall. So people besides Metro who might be reading this, take it from an old man who has been doing this for a very long time. Just 1) put the effort in to actually admit and learn from your mistakes and 2) Put your best self forward online so that the impression you leave in this world for all to see for the rest of time is not one of an alternate name for a donkey. Thanks for all you do to make the community better, bud. It is deeply appreciated by the majority of us.
Ya man you are so right about those two things. Totally void of either of the tenements of those sayings.
Guess kids just don't learn these types of conventional wisdoms anymore.
I feel like for the EB 1st Boss clip, there were many ways that could've gone better. I'm pretty sure the healing could've gone better. Maybe external 1 dispel another or use barrier for it. However, people need to just not continue killing and cleaving the adds down. If you perfectly cleave them all and instantly go to 9-10 stacks, that might be healable. However, it's impossible to heal when you sit at a higher number of stacks let it roll for a couple ticks and then refresh it. It almost fell off at 4, but at the last moment 4 more stacks popped sending it to 8. When that stack was about to fall off it refreshed and was put at 9 stacks. Only 1 death would've happened at this point, the evoker. This refresh killed the healer, and then they refreshed it again to 10, which basically bricked the boss fight. That pull is completely survivable without the mass dispel if the dps just used their brains and chilled for 3 seconds at any of those points in time.
Ya just terrible preparation from all players really. No real defensive strategy from the DPS, no dispels or CDs used from the healer.
Strange how you go full dungeons without seeing barrier used.
Your point about people putting pressure on the tank because they got carried once before, but have never actually tanked themself is 100% accurate
Ya sadly that's something I see very often. Literally just had it today. Guy tells me to skip a pack in the second boss room of throne as we are on our way to the first boss. I ask him why, he says "because we don't need it?"
Literally telling me what route to run lol...
I told him no, we are skipping at the end. He says "pull it with the second boss then" and we do and wipe and they act like it was my mistake.
Crazy game anymore!
Love the videos man. Been much more actively trying to foster a positive group environment with good communication within other peoples and my own keys. Noticed by just merely doing this my success rate has gone up massively! From struggling to do a 17 at the start of the season without people disbanding, to pushing into my first 22 this week with ease!
Oh great, glad to hear that. Just a bit of respect and friendliness goes a long way. Not sure how people have forgotten that honestly. Kinda scary!
Hate to see how they act in actually stressful situations irl
@@heythereguysitsMetro People forget that there are people behind the characters in runs. We spend so much time on the net that basic courtesy that we would extend to someone if we were speaking face to face is lost.
@@kathycoleman4648 ya, totally right about that. Hard to make people remember though sadly.
That everbloom clip. Amazing.
Slow rolling a 5 stack into a 6 stack into a 7 stack into 8 stack into a 9 stack... simply beautiful. It takes a great amount of skill from the DPS to perfectly roll bursting stack like this!
Haha ya its like frame perfect.
But honestly, that is not uncommon. We had 9 stacks every pull in there that week.
Tbf Metro is also autopilot dpsing the adds to contribute to rolling the stacks. Not just the dps’s fault.
@@drewbediah8744 if a bdk stop attacking he cant death strike anymore and will die. Something highly likely in a +25 with giga stacks from lashers (and nobody to clear them)
this is 100% on the DPS to stop pushing their aoe button for 2 globals.
I've had moderate success this season, but even my guildie tried to give up on a key cuz it wasn't timed. We all wanted gear but he quit... this issue is far away from just a pug issue now. This has started infecting even guild groups. I finish 99% of my keys, I have learned over 10 new things this week at 23-25 without learning there is nothing. If you know everything then what's the point of even playing(spoiler alert... no1 knows everything).
Yup, very well said. Everyone can learn more. Sad to hear even people not pugging have been infected with this mentality.
Had a priest not healing the tank [or anyone at some points - literally 0 on the healing meter during pulls] in a BRH, a clearly new "I'm playing a meta class" havoc demon hunter just going all in on packs before the tank could even do anything. One blamed the tank for being squishy, the other blamed the tank for not having any aggro. The 3rd dingus mage just dogpiled on and blamed the tank because the other 2 were blaming him. He was not paying the slightest bit of attention and just went with the flow.
That tank was insanely experienced in both tanking, healing, and dpsing and was is one of the best on a very competitive realm. What happens when he tells them what's going wrong [in a very polite way mind you]? They rage and leave. After saying how experienced he was and what keys he normally does and genuinely trying to help them - demon hunter goes "Go back to your own key level." and leaves. Priest continues to rage even harder because he doesn't have any excuses anymore. Mage goes "Big pulls on bursting week? Smart." With a priest. The bursting wasn't even an issue in the first place so it was just insanely confusing. Once again - don't think he was paying attention. We were actually doing pretty small pulls since it was a pug in a low key. Like packs to pack instead of double or triple pulls. It was just a 16 and that group was completely overkill for the dungeon. We could probably die 40 times and still time it. Even had a priest to counter the bursting if it was an issue but he had no idea how to use mass dispel and was using it on cooldown. I know that he was because he said he was. He of course made excuses.
That is the M+ pugging experience. People giving up, messing up, blaming people who are doing it right because the people doing it wrong don't have a clue - and the moment the slightest bit of legitimate critism heads their way - they leave and ruin the key. And of course only the key holder has any sort of consequence regardless of what side of that they are on. We try to avoid pugging and basically don't pug when we actually have everyone for the first month or so of a season for that very reason. I don't actually know what could solve this because there are just so many fragile people out there. I think someone else in the comments said a blacklist system but I would propose it for a different reason - these people will blacklist themselves into a corner. They very often blame everyone else and have a very good chance to blacklist everyone else. Make it a 60 days "no going back" confirmation button that only stops you from seeing people in the _group finder._ It's better than the nothing that exists right now. Reporting doesn't do anything. Usually just gives a slap on the wrist when Blizzard actually does respond.
Well they are technically not doing anything wrong so you can't report them currently. But blizzard has said they will be taking a look at the problem moving forward.
Until then it's up to us to put social pressure on these people causing this chaos. A little bit goes a long way.
@@heythereguysitsMetro Oh I meant when they actually do something wrong. Like the really just absolutely poisonous players. Nothing happens to them either.
@@Legionthecomrade oh ya, well if they say hateful things in chat they will be actioned. Blizzard is good about that at least.
I think there are a few things at play here that create this "GG go again/next" mentality with M+.
1) Blizzard does not punish leavers; They said they will implement some sort of penalty in the future, but I believe they were aiming for next expac, but no idea what patch during next expac.
2) Blizzard does not incentivize staying; Deplete your key? here's a downgraded item and/or less than half of the crafting mats compared to completing a key. A better option here would be to give the player a choice at the end of a dungeon. You can take a piece of loot or 12 crests, not both. This at least would slightly incentivize staying a bit more for those that still need to upgrade gear.
3) Sunk cost fallacy; Sunk cost is variable per person and as such, one person may see a wipe and compare it to previous experiences and just say "I'd rather go next than try to push a potentially depleted key."
I've spent a good chunk of this season pugging across three characters at various M+ levels, with my highest being about 2.9k doing 20-25s and seeing a lot of what I just mentioned here. Lots of shaping up to do in the community, but it feelsbadman to wipe on what will likely already be a tightly timed key with a pug.
Just gotta look at the facts of the situation. One wipe is not the end anymore. Stay tuned for Monday's video to see that very clearly.
It's an elitest mentality that has grown like a cancer over time. A player gets into a 20+ key for the first time and see's a "good player" leave early flame the entire party in chat, and says hmm, I want to be this guy or this type of behavior is ok, then they do it a week later, recycling the cancer. We grew up with loyalty and a mentality to never give up, to finish what you start, etc unfortunately these morals were not instilled in everyone. Hence these situations. Every player watches the top guilds run these dungeons and somehow believe they are in that caliber and the elitest mentality grows. I want to make additional friends, make some memories, fight until we conquer the objective, its just a game at the end of the day. However, this just isn't the mentality of a lot of wow players. I love that you are bringing awareness to the issue this is the first step to making change and we positive folk appreciate it.
Glad its appreciated and do hope it can help.
I think you are right about the idolization honestly. I hadn't fully considered that being a factor until now.
for someone like me who likes to pug. if you get too many untimed keys on your IO people wont take or be less likely to take you. I know many people that I hang out with and they do they same thing, look at some ones IO and be like oh, they have soo many untimed on this key not taking them.. not that they are learning and getting better.. those untimed must be their fault... helping people and sticking things out just doesn't seem to be the right thing to do any more.. i used to always stick around and help.. and now I only do it once and a while as I dont feel I can afford to.
Stupid mentality on both sides. You are still in failed keys, they just don't show up. Anyone with a brain knows some one who has zero depletes runs on their raiderio page is just a leaver.
Good players learn from keys and get better every run.
@@heythereguysitsMetro i agree. i feel like if i dont play that game then i will be out( because i have been in the past). ive always wondered why failed keys are not listed. wouldn't that help ? maybe there is no way to track that.
I mean also right now, on keys above 20 I think the expectation is to leave if people think it is not going to be in time. so not having lots of untimed keys is the norm isn't it ?
@@KevinM0N blizzards API doesn't show info until the key is finished, nothing when the key is started. There are ways to do it, but raiderio is not actually interested in cleaning up the absolute mess they have created so don't expect that to change.
that being said id prefer to do things your way. sticking out to the last second and trying to pull off that clutch save. its fun .. not many people like you left it seems
I've already identified the issue 2 minutes into the video, that healer has -ragnaros next to his name. I myself have been assassinated by ragnaros players many times.
Ya, sadly its a relatively common issue, but as you see with the subsequent clips, not the only issue there.
i always like to finish keys that are even remotely close to the timer b/c what if tuesday blizz is like "X instance timer is extended by 1 min". ... Now you get free score for sticking it out
Actually an amazing point tbh, had not even considered that.
I think in terms of the DH saying we don't have MD, I think he was just being a jerk. He waited all the while you ran up there, warlock set up a portal, and came back to say anything. I see this all the time, people WAIT for you to make the mistake and then flame you to the heavens for it, when it could have been prevented.
I see it a lot as a tank myself, people just being rude for the sake of being rude.
Ya actually a really good perspective on that. I hadn't even looked at it this way, but you are right. He waited to argue about everything until it was too late.
you briefly mentioned this, but WoW pugging is the only multiplayer game I have ever played where someone can just leave in the middle of your game, completely fuck 4 other people over, waste up to 30 mins of your time, and not only does the leaver not get any sort of punishment, but the punishment actually goes to the LEADER of the group. I have completely stopped pugging keys and only do them with guildies. imo there NEEDS to be some sort of punishment, especially if the timer is still ticking
Ya likely will never be any way to punish people though. Both these things happen because of the way group forming works atm. Other games have set systems in place to form the group for you, and with that comes set rules you must adhere to.
This is literally just any party of players you can form yourself, even without 5 full players.
I don't think punishments will ever really come, but I do hope more incentives to get these guys out of this mindset of being so eager to leave.
Hey, I was the rogue in 5:25, I had accidentally pulled the caster pack by clicking through the ravager and BTEing the pack, as i said it was my fault in party chat anyways ggs was super close and sad
Oh ya, I saw you say that, I just don't see anything happening. But ya, that's funny that that was all it takes.
For me it comes down to being able to finish the key, because sometimes you know a healer/tank won't be able to do a certain boss (which can also not be their fault coz of low dps). But I don't get not finishing a key, that's just throwing away half an hour
Ya at the end of the day, this is really just pointless behavior. Especially in the first clip, the guy just walked away from success.
If you aren't playing to try to succeed, then you really should reassess why you are playing in the first place.
The timer definitely adds some desire to reap the rewards (io, +1 key level), but a lot of people don't realize that you learn so much more on how to improve by finishing overtimed keys. Especially if you replay it then you can analyze yourself and see what you can do better the next time or what you did wrong during the run. But people are so fixated on the timer that they don't see other avenues of improvement that it just creates this toxic environment where people leave after one wipe. My guild has a night where we just run keys and try to do an 18 for the vault, our players vary over skill/knowledge of dungeons but we always finish the key so they can get the hang of it and improve even if it's just a little bit over time.
Right, ya obviously that's how progression works everywhere else in the game. Some how though, in M+ pugging, people don't want to make progress, they just hop from group to group until their current knowledge is enough to get carried by everyone else.
@@heythereguysitsMetro They do it when pugging raids too, you wipe on a boss once, even in a fresh group and fresh raid that just came out and they leave to join another group because they want instant gratification and dont care to learn the fight so they essentially end up leaving to repeat the same mistake they did again and again.
I wonder if these people realize the sunken cost. They already spent like 20 mins in the key, what's the point of leaving to save 5 mins and losing loot or braincells?
Ya obviously they aren't actually saving any time. You'd have to leave 6 keys that way to even save 30 minutes, equal to one timer.
Just them trying to justify the sociopathic behavior.
i wouldnt have pulled flowers into boss with bursting, not worth. if a dps would have said pull flowers with boss i would have told him to shut the fuck up lol
So you think, in the third clip, that 9 minutes was plenty of time then? Because obviously it would be way less without the trash on the boss there.
With the first example it's all about psychology. The person leaves because he wants to be "in control". He knows that if he fails the key, it's ultimately his failure and since he cannot handle his own failure, he would rather leave and not be a part of that failure at all.
Well said. Problem is, he IS the reason it failed haha.
If he didn't act like that, he would have succeeded.
@@heythereguysitsMetro Thing is, he does not recognize leaving as failure. When he leaves he thinks to himself "im not finishing this key with them", kinda putting himself above you and thus not associating your failure with himself. Leaving keys is like a safety blanket for him, so that he doesn`t have to actually experience defeat. At least that`s what he is telling himself.
@@bancewaldmargonem4574 interesting perspective and I think you may be right. Because of how the game processes keys he may very well believe that if he just doesn't finish the key he doesn't fail it. That's actually a whole new thought now I have to reckon with on this topic. Gee thanks lol
I haven't done a M+since end of BFA. Mostly due to meta chasing toxicity and lack of decency from others. I'm very much a casual Andy/LFR person now, and my mental health is much better as a result.
For sure if it was bothering you that much I don't blame you. Sadly running away from the problem just makes the "toxic" players a higher percentage of the player pool.
Eventually we will need to stand up for ourselves.
Had guy bail in everbloom +19 8-10min left after 3rd boss wipe. What pisses me off is people leave they take group chance of loot after. You still get chance of getting loot In completion. Its still worth finishing for people gearing upgrading.
Certainly anyone doing this in keys people are gearing up in are totally indefensible.
Don't stand for it man. Let them know they are doing something that is not acceptable. If everyone who was upset by it did so, these guys would have to defend their bad behavior dozens of times a week and it would eventually break them.
That happens in LoL as well. If they miss one minion in the first 2 mins. They just wanna forfeit the match. No one wants to work for a win these days.
Geez that's even worse in a PVP where the other team can equally make mistakes. Sad times for the mental stability of gamers it seems.
XD, yeah the League of Legends community is easily one of the most toxic and mentally unstable people out there.
I stopped playing retail because of all of this stuff. Noticed I got so used to all the toxicity that I became a little toxic myself, which I did not enjoy at all. Blizzard has a big job fixing this before its too late (which it might be already)
Ya I feel ya. Hard not to fight fire with fire. Sadly when people quit all it does is make the problem people a higher percentage of the player pool. What we need to do is stand up for ourselves and let these guys know what they are doing is unacceptable.
I will have to agree, this season has people struggling to understand timing. I am not sure if its due to the nature of past keys being a bit more tight but this season is much more focused on just playing well and not rushing. Rise is the only key that is super tight in terms of time but the others are pretty fair.
Ya no real debate that the timers are way looser. Sadly, even after 9 weeks, many people just aren't getting it.
Hi! So a recent experience I had was a +18 Rise leaver.. we had wiped once due to the healer never doing orbs before and we got it corrected before the 2nd try. Well we pull and I’m tanking and the giant ability that focuses where the tank is happened and the rogue just ran right through it and dies. I brez him and he leaves instantly. Well we still timed it with the 4 of us. Anyways- he whispers me to “kill myself” and “you’re a dogshit tank, uninstall” and just the constant spam. This rogue was 2800 score too. I don’t understand this “I fucked up but I’m going to make someone else feel really bad about themselves” mentality. I’ve had a few leavers this season but for some reason he just sticks out the most.
That would be a prime example of the ones to have recorded and send in! Stuff like that is not okay and needs to be exposed.
its a good experiment you're running here but as a general rule if you really care about your group's success sadly you gotta filter out the players that are more likely to grief / underperform in your key. Ragnaros and Azralon have been some of the biggest offenders in pugs since forever and while you can't really know how good or bad the people you invite are, i can assure you the players from those servers 9/10 times play 500 rating under what they have
Oh ya trust me I know. Have been talking about that since legion. Sadly no real way to do that. There just aren't enough keys or players. Almost every key has some one from a problem realm or a problem spec.
just a question from someone who barely finishes 20s as a healer. why do people leave keys ever? I understand if there is TRULY no point. 40 minutes in the dungeon. but what do you lose out on from overtiming? specifically in the lower dungeons. 27s you lose the IO and the achievement of doing it but in 20s you still get vault upgrade and items so Im just confused why people even leave in the first palce, especially when it isnt their key.
Maybe some one will genuinely give you an answer, but I have been asking this question for years and all I ever get is a bunch of jumping through mental hoops, avoiding the question, or sociopathic behavior.
Basically there are three main reasons and they all come down to the same thing:
The person ONLY cares about themselves, some times to such a degree that anyone remotely offending them even with their gameplay will cause them to quit.
1. The literal ONLY goal is upgrading the key, not a single thing else. So if that ever remotely comes into question, that player is gone. (That's the example you see in clips 1 and 3 here.)
2. Their goals aren't actually upgrading or anything like that, they are only there to top the DPS chart, so if you pull in a way that they get killed or are otherwise unable to maximize their DPS because they have to actually work, they will leave. (thats the example you see in clip 2)
3. They aren't there to carry you, so if they perceive you as inferior to them (despite the fact you both likely have the same score) they will leave.
Obviously there are the few examples where there is an actual emergency or a straight flame war such that the key can't continue anyway.
But from what I have seen, one of those are always the reason if they are NOT the group leader.
Some times the group leader wants to attempt his key on a lower difficulty instead, which I try to respect, but I do still feel like is not okay if that wasn't made clear initially and it comes suddenly in the key.
This all happens because the culture of the game breeds young and impressionable players into this mentality from the ground up.
Actual adults or veteran players will know learning and progressing through out a run is a real thing, and is a necessary tool to improving as a player over a long period of time.
@@heythereguysitsMetro thanks for taking the time to respond. I definitely agree with your 3 points there because even ive seen the same things happening in my runs. I am about a month into playing WoW for the first time but im super competitve and I love the difficulty of dungeons and especially of pugging with people that are around the same level as me so I absolutely find it unfathomable that people will just leave for the smallest of reasons, when the reality is that the key was super doable.
in my experience though, a few of my friends who have been playing since legion are like this. they just want to super pump groups for keys that dont need max level people and will give up mentally after one wipe or one mistake that was made. it definitely is a selfish way of thinking and they say that "its the way the game is" which i dont want to believe but it seems that M+ culture is in fact like you describe it. but your ideas for rewarding people for completeing keys would be absolutely great, incentive to stay is always always better than punishment for leaving. (although I believe punishment should be more severe than literally nothing happening to them at all)
hopefully I get to the level of being able to do 25+s and up xD my brain is struggling to heal just 20s so to see you do these keys with what looks like minimal effort is super impressive to me and you have such a strong mental to keep going. super inspirational! keep it up and thanks again for replying!
@@kregman6928 sweet man if you have any questions lemme know. Happy to help some one new but passionate like you are. Love that story!
We play keys in the same range and we both pug and there are times I disagree with some of the things you say. However I have had some change of heart I played a key where I felt that I played so poorley I would have left if I was not the one making mistakes. They carried my dead body and I ended up turning very clutch at the end. It's actually a problem I saw a tank leave on 24 because he said the dps was to low. we had no deaths.
Ya man the timers just are too loose for giving up right now. Try your best and you'll be surprised how successful you can be.
Timed a 27 TOTT on tyran with 0.04 seconds to spare. We fucked up the first goblin pack skip and instead of gging, the tank instant took aggro and we did the whole gauntlet and timed the key by a split second. Ya never know.
Yup, stories like this all the time. People giving up way too easy.
i often say to the ppl 'let finish it for training' if we are close to a timeout and we are having difficulty the gauntlet is a perfect exemple of this
ppl need practice and not leave before it's really a over dead key. shit like EB 3th boss or last boss everybody could need a lil bit more training
as a healer this season it allow me to experience how hard is certain boss like always in EB the last boss hit way harder in a 25-26 tyra key it's surprising !
Very well said and a great example there. Bosses can vary wildly. Everyone could use the experience week after week on them.
Especially these guys who have no idea how long or difficult bosses are lol
yeah me and my guildies earlier in the season just spent an hour wiping to the 2nd boss of fall in a 27 just seeing if we can do it and testing stuff and trying to perfect how we do it. just to work out how to best rotate stuff. we timed 28 fall both weeks now
I love the priest leaving, I've seen groups do a full wipe in waycrest manor 29/30 and still time it, hving to run from entrence to pig boss, through the left side.
Even on a 30? Hard to believe, but not surprising given how easy keys are right now, timer-wise.
ruclips.net/video/C6cgKQScMXk/видео.html by yodaTV@@heythereguysitsMetro
The thing about throne of the tides, people saying: this is over so early in the key etc:
There must have been some streamer or big personality in the community who said something like: If you spend this much time getting to the first boss, you have a deplete.
Just ran a 25 throne, pulled the 3rd boss with 10 minutes left on the clock, but the keyholder left the second I pulled the boss after typing every 2 minutes that this key is done.
It's just so stupid
Its just that these guys THINK they know something when in reality all that does is make them worse players.
Next time just whisper the guy and challenge him on that. Tell him you still have a chance there, and unless it was his key, he has no right to leave until the timer is for sure over. Remind him, especially as a non-tank, he does not know what is coming next, so there is no reason to be leaving 10 minutes left on timers.
Damn, I'm watching this video thinking like "yeah, he makes some good points" until I noticed the name of your DK looked too familiar. That's when I realized we ran a BRH last week that was timed with like 15 seconds left due to the hallway being a complete shitshow in Sanguine. Small world LOL
Oh ya that was such a wild area last week. Super annoying! Glad we still upgraded it though haha
I'm tanking with my team. We've ran into this when we don't have all 5 online for a night and need to grab people from the queue, and it's so annoying. We actually embrace the depletes. Once the timer is out of reach, we take a moment and start talking about stuff we want to try out for the rest of the dungeon. Without the time pressure we may want to try new pulls, skips and we even had people go out and swap talents to try out a different build. It's great, it basically turns the key into an experimental run.
People leaving is so detrimental. Usually the last boss is the hardest one in the dungeon, and it's very visible that people in the PuG queue usually have way less experience on it. Just comparing people's play from the first to the last boss you notice it intsantly.
That is so well said honestly. I'd love to see a stat on how many kills of the last boss people have vs times they entered the dungeon.
It's so apparently so many people have no clue how long they take either haha
At a certain point up the ladder (Probs around 27/28s right now) there is a mutual respect for each others keys, and you see a lot less of this.
But that’s because there are far less keys being put up, and if you burn too many bridges by being a POS, than you are done pushing.
How you push that onto the rest of the player base is hard. I do think requiring coms stops a lot of toxicity/giving up early as well.
I think the general player base forgets we are all humans behind our keyboards. And people often won’t say half the shit they type. And feel more connected to the key.
That’s my experience…
Ya I have heard that much myself and you are likely right about the issue being related to the inability to jump from key to key.
That's why these guys act like this way, because they can get away with it and jump to the next group like nothing happened.
This is the mega downside to cross server grouping, name changing and easy re-rolling. You did stuff like this in EverQuest and your reputation was trash and that’s the end of high end gaming for you unless you go through the ungodly long process of leveling a new character and never telling people who you were previously.
No where near your caliber of play as a tank, but I sure learn a ton. Thanks for your hard work, and please keep at it. I consider you like a general, as in the military, for us tanks :)
Oh haha, idk if I deserve that kind of praise, but I appreciate it!
Let's get to eb, my analyze: Even without md, healer can dispels himself and stays alive, dh won't die due to leech+ can also netherwalk. Warlock won't simply dies by hs and mitigation. Evoker can starts to heal a little but let's say there's no barrier, mass barrier, pain suppression etc so yes evoker dies. You had battle ress ready so it was like one dead and nothing so key breaker happened.
In the end they died and didn't accept ress, yes wipe it then, will be faster than going with one dps. On first tyrannical week in a 20 we had to continue 4 man from trash mobs in mage boss to end of the run, we managed to clear the trash, kill mage boss and kill final boss and we were all around 470 ilvl and we timed it. We didn't do some magical dps, the dungeon is easier on second half and people still leave on start.
Ya, no one else I did this with this week had issues living there. Priest just did nothing either. No cds used at all.
++ love your content i dont know how u get such crazy keys everytime
It's pretty wild how often it happens but tbh hasn't been anything like this in a while at least.
nice video I always think that its better to start a grp telling that you need to finish the key as primary and second to get it on time. ppl want to leave at the first wipe (I play healer)
There are a lot of ways the group leader can try to solve it, but still at the end of the day people do what they want when they want.
I've seen and tried it all. Even "weekly no leavers" still have disbands.
this whole situation can be fixed just by not having keys be degraded until you actually run out of time in the dungeon, should be able to retry as much as you need on the same key level
I do support keys not downgrading. But I think there are better solutions for the problem to go away permanently.
We obviously also want to stop this strange mentality where people are leaving upgradeable keys too right?
I have had a hardline stance on committing to the group I start anything with since vanilla. I'll stay an hour over the timer, idgaf. If I notice someone not doing the mechanic right and it causes a wipe, I'll take the 60 seconds it takes to explain it to them instead of whining that their knowledge isn't as robust as my own. However, I've completely abandoned pugging in DF season 1 because of the "culture" that's taken over the mythic+ scene. What was once an annoying but infrequent occurrence (someone leaving early) has become the norm. It really seems like everyone goes into the key EXPECTING it to fail these days.
I really appreciate your channel and the statistical analysis you bring to the discussion. Kudos!
Thanks so much! And ya I totally agree, it seems like most players join a key looking to leave as soon as possible. Constantly I run into groups with at least one playing saying gg constantly and asking if we are done even if there is still plenty of time.
This is a joke I just played a throne of tides they left off the first pull because we burned lust and the tank did not hold the aggro. Entire team disbanded less than 1 minute into the key. Throne of tides is toxic.
Geez, ya that's silly. I see that a lot about aggro on the first pack but it's usually the dogs fixated on people on the casters lol.
There are only like 4 targets in that whole hallway that actually need to be attacking the tank.
Maybe it's just people having absolutely no feel for the timers based on previous seasons? This is probably the most lenient season timer wise, where you can do most of dungeons, have catastrophic wipes and still time it with minutes left on a timer.
I don't think so, simply because these guys are literally typing numbers of time spent on bosses or encounters that are factually incorrect.
The thing is, if they were just a bit more humble, they wouldn't do this at all. Kill times are never the same. You can never be sure until you pull it.
@@heythereguysitsMetro It's bizarre how people pull random numbers out of their ass and try to convince you of them like they're defending their dissertation or something. Surely it takes the same amount of time to just complete the key and see if it's timed or not
I've been questioning this leaving the keys if not timed mentality all the way from BFA when this started. I did stop playing higher keys because of this and started to play pvp instead because there isnt anyone who leaves arena before someone dies and arena is finished. Ofc now at solo shuffle there is this same quit mentality if this goes south but we cant do anything about it. Im still trying to be positive about the keys but its so frustrating when ppl leaves like that. And usually the person who leaves first is actually the one who is dying most in that key...
Ya does tend to be the worst player the most often. We just need to not let people think they can get away with it without push back.
Challenge them and tell them it's not okay. If everyone who was upset by it did this, these people would be fielding dozens of whispers a day and eventually would crack under that pressure to defend their actions.
It occasionally happened in BfA but it only really started to be an issue when they changed the scoring rules to no longer award any meaningful score to depletes above 20.
I advice you to install and configure OmniCD. If I were you I would not be pulling flowers on top of boss with no MD just because I do not trust pugs to open their eyes and stop rubbing over their numbers on this boss It helps a lot in other ways too. I can sometimes pull real big if I see all big damage and defensive CDs are up, or pull less than I normally would do if everything is on CD. Helps you to win time or prevent potential wipes as a tank. Gives you even more agency over the chance of an upgrade.
I have omnicd. Already did it multiple times this week with no priest.
while doing a key on my lock that i only login to maybe once per week just to get a key done i had this healer that join leave after one wipe. he just said yeah this key is def going to deplete before we finish it, it was a rise i know the timing is tight but even if one wipe would cause us not to complete the key in time but yeah the guy just afked for a good 3mins and then randomly left. was only a 13 but no one in the group could understand why this guy needed to complete the key in time since it was such a low key.
Rofl in a 13. It's so scary, idk what the internet and gaming will look like in another 20 years.
I am currently 2500+ score this season and pretty much pug every dungeon. Have all +18s done and want to start getting into +20s. Out of all my runs I can prob count on 1 hand how many times people have left or we didnt time it. It seems to be a huge problem in the very high keys. I honestly couldnt imagine pugging 25s and above, seems like an absolute nightmare.
Ya much more of a concern above 20 for sure.
did you ever make a video on that healer that said "this is boring" and then left in a waycrest with like 20 mins left on the last boss?
No I didn't, I think there was even crazier stuff that week haha
Funny, I had something similar happen in a 24 EB the other day where the tank left right before third boss because he, and I quote, "Don't want to boost". What's sad was the run was fairly clean, we was good on timer and everyone did their part. When he had left, I messaged him asking why he left, and that it wasn't cool of him to just dip like that when that key was easily timeable, and he said "I don't have time to boost. I'm doing 80% of everything in here, stops, interrupts". Safe to say that the claim was not true according to the information on details, and he was just full of himself. This gonna stick with me, never had anything like this happen to me before, lol.
@@imshloodoo1 that's funny too because as the tank you should love to do this. That's how you climb. Put in work that turns depleted keys into upgrades. Meanwhile that dude is doing the opposite lol
i mean why is not a single person baiting the arcane orb in the everbloom key? it always goes to the farthest target, so kinda weird to kite it back into ranges ( i realize you don't want to add anything else on accident) and them not recognizing that the orb will now insta trigger the explosion.
ability timers make everbloom so much easier, you can grip charges(ragers/wasps) before it does the initial dmg, see when next orb will spawn or when the fireaoe is rdy, so you delay it by either kicking early (mob casts another fireball that you kick late) or late(aoe is available, you just kick late to delay the aoe)
anyway just finish the key, just to see how much time was missing
The druid is baiting it and then the evoker rescues him and kills everyone.
The Demon Hunter just has extreme main character syndrome. Because he's "carrying" there's no point to reset. You know he would be typing WIPE if he was dead.
Ya absolutely, that's the mentality for sure. You can tell just how he INSTANTLY freaks out about threat the second it happens. Like he was waiting to snap.
i'm really hoping for a bnet block option on players. i never want to see toxic players in my queue once i identify them
Sadly I don't think that really does anything here. There are just too many people to block them all. Their behavior needs to be rewritten by the game's incentive structures, OR by our social pressure for them to act properly.
If you care, there is an addon called personal blacklist addon you can get that allows you to tag anyone you want
"Personal Blacklist (PBL)" is what you're looking for.
Just had the party lead of a 25 atal leave after 4 minutes into the dungeon with no wipes because “sorry guys were not going to time it.”
I mean it’s his key so he has that choice, but I really would have liked the practice and my time back lol.
Stay tuned for Mondays video then, since you bring that up. Gonna be a wild one!
@@heythereguysitsMetro Salty popcorn and tissues wild? ;)
@@peterpain6625 just gonna really shut down some of the conversations about leaving we have seen recently.
@@heythereguysitsMetro Looking forward to your take on things. You've been kinda my rock in stormy weather if it comes to tanking and not giving up on people. Thanks again.
@@peterpain6625 glad to hear that!
Right now I'm at ~3350 as havoc, and I'm pugging 26-27s this week. I'm more nervous to put my key up to pug now. One thing I've noticed is that there is definitely a huge difference in caliber of player you get signing up between doing a 25 vs even a 26. It is crazy that I can do a 27, but can't carry a 24 or even a 23 enough to make sure my key doesn't fall down far. If my key falls to a 25, I'm immediately annoyed because I know it's very likely that it doesn't go well with pugs (and then 24 is even worse).
Luckily I pug a lot with at least 1 friend, usually my aug friend. Once I stopped pugging with aug pugs I noticed a huge difference in depletes or toxicity. But 25 and below are just a bad time. I'm glad I'm basically past that. Only way to fix it is to collect bnets in my opinion. Inviting people onto voice chat and meeting others that are good and/or problem solve with you is actually a really great experience when pugging.
Ya keystones going down coupled with this culture sucks for sure.
hello everyone...ive met my own goal at timing all 20s with both my chars and i decided to end it here...i recognize that current season power grid can get you +3 of what you normally have been doing thus increasing the toxicity levels of some of the op class enabling them to be toixc af when pugging
with that said the only thing you can do for your mental health and fun is play with friends as much as possible ...its what ive been doing since legion and in between i am pugging to satisfy my gameplay thirsts...but that has also taken a toll to my psych when compairing pug with playing with friends...
i hope you all have a great day!
I'm glad you are having fun, but sadly running away from this problem only makes the "toxic" players a bigger percentage of the playerbase.
It needs to be met head on and those of us bothered by it need to stand up for ourselves and let these players know what they are doing is not okay. It only happens so much because they do it key after key and no one says or does anything to push back against them.
Wish more people just didn't care so much about the timer. Like you still get loot, you still get count for the vault, and you can always try again after. I'm not saying don't try and time the key, but don't ruin a run or potential community reputation/relationships over it either. At the end of the day it's just a game and you can always keep pushing.
Right and leaving 5 minutes early does nothing for your ability to play the game. Just be a normal adult and respect the others who were kind enough to invite you to the group you just ruined.
For the first boss EB, looking at it from a healer pov... with no MD its doable but people need to be ready, and proactive with how to live.
Aug rescue shield + regen should be enough. if he doesn't die immediately, at some point he has infinite healing. I imagine a DH going into an EB has netherwalk or something to try and survive bursting stacks. Priest probably has barrier, pain supp, single target dispel. Don't think i see AMZ as an option? idk DK talents. Lock and DH are incredibly tanky and might be able to live.
Problem is there are 2 solutions... the boss does no damage so no defensives need to be assigned to stuff. So the group can 1) kill everything together very quickly, pop every cd in the book, health pots, soulstones, and heal. Doable but hard. option 2) split the trash, stop dps, do whatever is necessary. evoker can go in and breath some out or something, kill half, reset, kill other half.
Your frames don't show buffs, but I didn't see a rescue shield, barrier, or netherwalk popped, and things got extended pixel perfectly. (timer hits 0 seconds 3 times going from 8 to 10). And you were blasting the adds too as tank. Literally targetting them. Seemed like you were distracted and not thinking about the potential wipe there before it happened... same as the other guys.
Most of these issues can be resolved on the fly, and it's why I enjoy healing. But often people are more worried about assigning blame than thinking through to improve, so they leave keys and don't develop the skills needed to save them. And that often means "i think it's depleted, but I want to fight the last boss to see how much damage it does, how long it takes, etc." Randoms struggle with that.
My philosophy over m+ is the only person I have any control over, is myself. So even if the other guys troll, what could I have done better? I have yet to encounter a situation where I look at a vod and can't think of anything. So if this key depletes? the next one won't end the same way.
The clip after that... no excuse really. Evoker and priest both had plenty of time to to move out but forgot. Died, got tilted, left. and made up excuses for it to justify leaving.
I'm sure there are a lot of variables but I ran this key a lot this week and did not have these issues there.
I think it's just a matter of people not being prepared for it.
Im literally scared of running twin guardian at this point, even tho I don't yeet my teammates anywhere just want to apply the shield on the spot, they yell at me to never touch them.
Ya its powerful for higher keys, but tbh I wouldn't do it unless you were sure you were needing to do it in a pug.
I would argue that the healer roll has more pressure than the tank role. But yeah, i guess tanks get flamed on their pulls or survivability.
Healer role is harder for sure. But no tank is obviously the one who has the most eyes on him. Every single combat starts with the tank.
You can do a key without a healer but you can't do a key without a tank.
For the evoker at 14 minutes they have a talent that gives you 30k absorb shield if you rescue someone so its possible that was his idea to get the shield cuz I slowed it down and watched and it looked like the arcane blast hit him so it proceed his cheat so, I think he was trying to get the absorb shield to survive the blast and just ended up pulling the priest into the orb. At least that the only reason I can think of
Its possible, but that would be an insane mistake, because range typically bait the orb. He should have used it on the paladin who is 2 yards away from him, not the only person actually baiting the orb lol.
@@heythereguysitsMetro yeah that's an insane mistake to make tbh. That button is very hard to accidentally use so the only thing makes sense is he wanted the shield and I assume he has a specific target focused probably the priest. That's what I do on my evoker is when I do use the button I always focus someone generally before hand since it's easier and quicker so that's what I'm thinking he did. The only other possible explanation is him trolling lol
@@Uzieye ah makes sense.
Things will change. They have to. I'm not sure what Blizzard will do, but the whole situation of key depletion for going over time will either be revamped drastically or just removed. Maybe a separate currency to be obtained and spent on upgrading your key? And then maybe this currency is only obtainable on dungeon completion?
Ya I really want to see the currency system honestly. I'm fine with it just being merged into the flightstone thing. But a separate currency may be better.
Think blizzard should just get rid mythic+ timer or add regular mythic difficulty into random dungeon finder queue. I think the timer just causes toxic.
Don't think that's on the table. At the end of the day though, its the people who cause the toxic. Need to fix the people, not the system.
Had the healer leave my key this weekend. One wipe on last boss. Had like 5 mins left. Never even got to try again.
Ya man, worst thing in the world. It has totally put me off doing my own key ever. I can't stand how selfish people are when I chose them over the dozens of other people I had the choice of.
Just gonna say, the healer who leaves first is form ragnaros.....
Ya certainly not unnoticed haha
Haha the bursting issue is one I had on a low key with my alt. Couple guys kept blasting, stacking it over 6, and blaming the healer. Excellent case of toxic DPS. They kept pulling behind my back and the only way I would find out is suddenly the healer would be dead. Over count because it is a mystery at that point what got pulled and what didn't, but it is "bad tank bad healer." Guess who had 5 interrupts all run? (WM if you're wondering)
geez what a mess
I've always thought there should be some sort of punishment system in place for those that bail on keys before completion.. maybe some kinda check mark goes against their name kinda like an IO score but in the negatives.. so when they sign up for a run the person forming can see they have bailed on keys.. or maybe some thing that deducts points off their IO reducing their score
Ya sadly no way to differentiate between the malicious leavers and the acceptable ones right now. They would need to create a system where pugging and pushing were separated, like they did with soloqueue in PVP.
love your run down! Wish I could meet people like you to game with, your very positive! Subbed!
Thanks so much for saying that! I really cant stand how much negativity there is over topics that are meant to be entertaining, so its easy for me to be positive in the face of that wave!
shoot me a pm if ya want to play. I just started this season playing shadow and disc! Honestly im around a 2k player bur you seem fun! Learning as I go.
I’m the type of person that is a real people pleaser and do care about what people think of me, probably more than I should. Leaving a group early is so opposed to my mentality, it’s offensive to do so. It’s sad that some people are so selfish.
I tend to be the same way honestly. But in truth this topic is a sticky one for me because of how much it eats into my own fun of a system I love.
Thats an amazing idea for the currency. Key protection would be awesome and make things a lot less stressful.
Ya key protection would be HUGE and it would require you to run lots of keys that actually finish. I think it's the perfect solution to this issue.
The mentality of leaving a key after a wipe comes probably from DF season 1 where at 20+ a wipe usually meant a depleted key, now that gear has inflated characters and that keys at that level are quite easier, a wipe is FAR from a deplete on 20+ but the idea of (20+ is hard, no wipe) sticks in peoples minds, In my opinion.
It's deep engrained for sure. But I doubt any of these guys played seriously in season 1.
why do you think that?
@@heythereguysitsMetro
@@rkale77 because this mentality is a short term dream. They think leaving and jumping from key to key is a successful way to play but long term you gain no actual knowledge from it. It's usually a trap people fall into because they think it's the best way to climb and they are usually just learning about how fun that could be.
Obviously some one who has played for years would know eventually you climb high enough that you need to learn what you missed along the way.
I think a lot of this behaviour can be put down to many people not playing for fun but for rewards. I see this in other games as well. People are quick to surrender a game where its unsure if they win. I have seen many of them argue that they don't want to waist their time and rather try another run/ game where it is easier to win.
I think this is a bigger topic though. I have seen this from people who are conviced that they know everything and that they couldn't learn from a lost game/ failed run. I have also seen people who argued that they have literally zero fun when they lose a game. I also believe that the fact that we all get older and have less time plays a role in this. And we can't forget the fact that its easier then ever to queue for this type of content without actually interacting with the people you are playing with. Im basically saying that its easier to dodge a run if you don't talk to the people in voice chat and if you don't need to play with them next week.
I would love it if someone studied this in depth. I think that we gamers experienced a mentality shift in the last 5-10 years and modern game design trends play a big role in this. I think there is a reason for why we forgot how to have fun even when we lose.
Its something I am super curious about as well, and have been studying it, observationally, for about 10 years now.
I think you are right about the fun thing, I just don't think they are AWARE they aren't playing the game for fun anymore.
Their brains are now addled by the accessibility of it all, when it comes to making incentive based decisions.
They are basically addicted to the result now, no longer the fun.
And anything between the result and the fun doesn't matter much to them.
Including, treating other human beings as equals, sadly.
You can actually see the evoker start to hearth out at 17:00 before he I guess decides to kamikaze instead lol. People are wild. I had a wipe on big pull right after triad in waycrest in an 11 alt run....dude left. Like...bruh it's an 11 and dps was insanely fine.
The leavers in low keys are the ones that make the least sense for sure. Record them low keys and send the funny stuff in to me!
Maybe I’m off here but I feel like I remember seeing 28 tyrannical being like 7ish minutes. I don’t think a 25 fortified could take 5 minutes
Most people's data seems to suggest it would be well under 5 minutes ya.
The DH really thinks with his meters instead of what is needed to achieve the larger objective. And then fails to see that if you just down two or three flowers using just Single Target DPS, the whole group lives, maybe barely but survivable. Happens a lot in random keys, some S tier DPS going loose on AoE while there are few priority targets that make the life of the tank and healer very hard if not taken down quickly. I don't play classic but sometimes miss doing dungeons the way you did when all packs were first marked and there was a kill order in order to make the pull.
Love the way you put that. "Thinks with the meters." Super accurate. Probably why he doesn't want to wipe and pull again either. Thinks he is able to solo dps a boss like that lol...
But ya, you are totally right. If he just actually targeted a flower that would have gone a long way.
Yeah if there is 3:30 min and you have the last boss, the 2 mobs in front of it and this mob on 30% hp you can call it a gg. Last boss is 2:15 - 3:15 depends on the dps and if you have bl.
And the mobs are about 1min. With the movement b/w the packs 3:30 is gg 4 min is a good chance.
Why are you bringing that up? Did you mistakenly think we had 3:30 minutes? we had 5 minutes.
@@heythereguysitsMetroNo I was just saying that for me 3:30 of where you was was a give up and you had 5 min
I can only speak for the second pull being a healer. But not having one of your best cd + the delayed bursting is nasty. 4 stacks can be managed without a major cooldown as a healer, so when you see them about to drop off, usually you wouldnt go overboard since next burst might go higher. But being delayed not only at 4, but 8 and 9, I feel like everyone is in the shitter at that point.
I don't blame the healer going into tunnelvision and takes a breath after that. But I've been wondering, can AMZ counter bursting?
I'm sure it can, to some degree. But I haven't had any healer struggle to do this pull all week other than this fellow. I think it's more the dps just not using any defense either tbh. But I don't see why healing this would be hard when there is absolutely nothing else to heal.
But that's mostly because I have seen so many handle it easily.
One of the reasons why many run fail is that people rush too much like they are on MDI, while there is actually no reason for that. I have seen so many chain pulls that caused a wipe, while there was 0 reason to chain pull. Also tanks pulling while not full group is there and making a mess. I once wiped fall 28 because tank did not want to wait 5 seconds for healer who died, pulled and got dead in few seconds, and full group wipe. So if tanks would learn to think with their own head instead of copying things from top streamers the runs would be much less riskier. You dont need to make same risky decisions on 25 for instance as someone who is trying to time 30.
Certainly a bad tank can cause the group to crumble. But it's easy to blame the tank in that situation instead of the dead healer right?
@@heythereguysitsMetro no matter if healer's death was his ownn fault or it was unavoidable death, tank should have waited, 28 fortified key is not where you want to pull pack without healer, he got melted :)
@@aleksaas My point was, you are fixated on the tank making the mistake, but there was another mistake that I am willing to wager was just as problematic.
That's what sucks about tanking. They do the heavy lifting for 90 percent of the key, and make one mistake and people are ranting about it on youtube videos.
So to amend your original comment - one of the reasons keys fail is because people make mistakes.
We are here encouraging people to not worry about those mistakes as much and just learn what you can from each one and improve long term.
@@heythereguysitsMetro you missed my point. I do know that people make mistakes and I dont have a problem with that. I have problem with tanks overpulling and rushing all the time just because they saw someone doing it on 31 key. So they increase the risk of people making mistakes and wipes happening. They dont understand key is still timeable even without taking those risks. And this is not mistake. It is just the way people think, like 95% of tanks dont understand that. And then you have that 5% who actually understand the game and know exactly what to pull depending on key level, affix, timer and group composition. And will not risk when there is no need.
I had a run that was just a weekly 20 Rise that the healer didn't realize they were queued as a healer, they were upset but they ended up swapping after we wiped on the first boss, we only +1'd but hey better than a rage quit from anyone.
You mean, in rise, you cleared all the trash without a healer, then only just realized it after the boss was pulled?
yeah, after we wiped once and some convincing he swapped and we still timed it, good experience that i expected everyone to just leave on @@heythereguysitsMetro
Imo a key is never over until its over and unless the group as a whole calsl it or IRL happens and someone has to go - thats understandable. Otherwise, I'd rather keep trying and timed or not - rather get possible loot and finish instead of having wasted XYZ amount of time and consumables for nothing.
Ya, crazy that you have to preface that as its your opinion when its just legitimate fact haha.
That's how messed up the community is, that they think its not worth trying when there is still fight left to give.
Wasting time sucks, but failing is 10x worse in my eyes.
Some people just don't get it.
I just had the most absurd, petty leaver in M+ I've ever seen (I've been doing casual m+ since it released in Legion). Literally yesterday:
My gf and I log onto 425ilvl alts and decide to knock out a couple +2's - +5's to get some alt-vaults. We queue into a +2 Darkheart Thicket. Everyone gets to the dungeon, Demon Hunter tank says to wait to dps until he gets all the trash grouped on the bear.
He pulls it all, groups it up, I pop lust, we cleave it all down. Nobody dies and there is quite a bit of lust leftover.
Mage says "what a waste of lust. Goodluck with this guy" and leaves the dungeon. As if the timer was even an obstacle in a +2... or if there was even really a lust that could partially be unwasted in a 2 given how fast everything died. We all laughed about it and brought in another dps, reset the instance, and 3-chested it. Silly stuff.
Bonus question for any repliers: What is one spec that isn't in the meta which you wish was in the meta?
Geez, THOSE are the keys you need to record and send in to me! I would have LOVED to review that one.
In terms of your question, Holy Paladin 100 percent. Way undervalued right now imo.
@@heythereguysitsMetro My shadowplay hasn't been working lately. I did try to clip it but option for "save" was just greyed out. I got some screenshots of chat but that barely captures the speed at which that mage gave up lol
@@AuraPanda Ya, for sure. I just use OBS!
@@heythereguysitsMetro Does OBS have a clipping option for recording that doesn't just record for the whole session?
@@AuraPanda nope, but I would want to see full runs anyway.
These people leave because staying and improving requires them to acknowledge their own flaws. It's easier to leave than to admit you're bad. As for the DH I'm sure he would have bitched at you even if you did it his way cause then he'd see it's actually a waste of time.. DH is strong but it's not faster than having 2 more dps for essentially the whole fight.
Yup that's exactly it.
people that only play dps in this game are the most clueless and ignorant about how boosted they are by other players.
Certainly the most likely to be the case with that role. Especially now with Aug being such a do-nothing role.
as you say there is just so much to learn from finishing the key even if you know you aren't going to time it. why not just do the last boss/bosses and get more practice even if it is going to be a deplete? you can try do some whacky diff more risk averse strat if you know it isn't going to be timed just to sell if it works for the hell of it. legit nothing to lose apart from 10 more mins of your time...
Right ya, and given how long even forming a key takes, 10 minutes is really nothing unless you are leaving dozens of keys a week this way.
The ironic thing here is, these guys likely have no idea how long the last boss takes because they constantly leave before pulling it.
This is partially why last bosses are so lethal for groups.
The amount of pulls people have on it per season is generally so low compared to first bosses, all due to the leaver epidemic.
I’ve heard of people leaving within the first two or three minutes because they didn’t think the DPS could handle it. Meanwhile, the same group handled it earlier. You’re right I don’t understand why people are so easy to quit and why they would want to quit? I mean no, you didn’t time the key, but you still get some semblance of credit for doing so even if it’s not cheated. Why would you wanna waste all of that time?
Right, and the bigger issue is they are giving up any potential learning and robbing others of it too. In these cases, these guys THINK they are correct about something, but if they just tried what they said they wouldn't do, they would know their numbers are incorrect.
@@heythereguysitsMetro I would be very curious to see the aged demographic of the people that are the quitters. And the only reason I say that is I’m in my 40s and a lot of the people that I do keys with are also in their 40s. And I know my kids generation are a league of quitters. There is no resilience with their generation and it drives me crazy. I wonder if it’s just an age thing or impatience or they’re trying to hit some imaginary timeline they’ve set up for themselves and if they think that you’re not gonna get them there fast enough, they’re gonna find someone who will?
@@ItsVarezen I initially thought it was an age thing, but I think its just a coincidence. I think the people doing this aren't that much younger than you or I. I would imagine in their early 20s, if I had to guess. They act that way because the internet has set them up to be like this their whole life. We grew up learning lessons about respect and patience and had to work harder for our success. But when you grow up with a cell phone and all this other tech, you expect every answer to every problem to be something you can just ask your phone to answer for you.
Then that mentality bleeds over into ever thing you do.
I hope I'm wrong, because it means the doctors and caregivers taking care of us when we are older are going to be an even more concentrated form of these people with this mentality taken even further.
Not a pleasant thought.
we definately need some kind of negative consequences for leaving. Like 1 hour debuff for not being able to join other key unless 3/5 ppl in the group accept /surrender
Ya that would require them to make a solo queue type pathway for mythic plus.
@@heythereguysitsMetro that would be great tho
@@lyusinator Maybe. I go back and forward on it all. It would first of all be a lot of work, and if they were going to put that level of work in, I would rather do something more concrete to fix the problem, other than cheesy systems that lock players into groups.
But at first glance it might not be obvious, but that would likely mean (just like soloQ) there would be a totally different score and progression metric.
It would also be much harder to do keys this way because you'd have no control over your group comp. Presumably this system would not require a keystone given that, otherwise who would even want to do it this way?
So then how do you deal with pushing vs "qualification?"
At the end of the day if there was some magic bullet there, it might be fun. But it would be such a major adjustment and a ton of work from Blizzard, I don't think it would be worth it.
The Evoker suicide move... he probably wanted to rescue the healer after arcane orb was out, to "help" dodging it, but miss timed the cast. He was ashamed to admit it. Funny clip.
Ya you might be right. But god he was way off with the timers
Yup it’s terrible and makes pushing a nightmare right now. We had one wipe in EB 25 because someone bodied the triple stinger pack and we wiped
Someone just dropped “gg” and left, when the key was still easily timetable. I was a few seconds from timing a 26 EB this week with 18 deaths, and massive time losses to dps being down for long pulls or bosses
Ya some people are just hardwired to run away from any adversity it seems. Not sure what else it could be at this point.
Something I notice tanks do is use an ability that isn’t taunt to pull a mob that might be too close. Taunt will make extra mobs not be pulled like in your 2nd video. I suggest trying it!
It also makes it so that bursty dps wont take aggro initially on that mob you focus first.
Also you keep calling it busting, and it’s funny hahah
@@Meisbear glad you find it's funny!
As a tank, we'd prefer to sometimes save our taunts for the free mobs that get pulled off of us rather than taunt the primary target. The relationship and responsibility of tank and dps should be mutual. The dps should not open up on a solitary mob 0.0001 seconds into a pull either. And all too often the 3 dps are each opening up a can of whoopass on 3 different targets
@@mcshamkraken4448 I tank as well and I would suggest trying it because your taunt will come off cd by the time it reaches and you need it again. And you won't have things be accidently pulled that are patrolling near other mobs. :}
@@Meisbear Yeah pretty sure you save Taunt for primary targets. And that Taunt works the exact same way a hit would.
Oh man the worst is getting to the end, realizing you can't finish it, and then someone leaves. Wasted 30 minutes easily
In these cases we can easily finish.
Also 12:08 dispels are not the problem it’s healing through put and dps needing to use defensives bette. Also the Aug evokes can help with dispels. DH and warlock should never die there also warlock is built like a truck and can just about live anything and DH darkness or any number of defensive would live. And with the warlock everyone should have health stone and healing potions like this shouldn’t ever be a wipe. My guess is the 2 dps are more focused on the damage numbers than making sure they move out of what’s killing them on the floor.
10:54 one thing too destruction warlock is a very slow not mobile class built like a turret he died standing in bad casting chaos bolt when he should have been moving and rain if fire spam
And bursting when stacks get very high on the first boss the dps should have been on boss cleaving and staggering the mobs they kill instead of aoe dps and the DH doubling down on his class having to do aoe. Is very bad mental for the pug you had if he wants to time that key he will have to do what is required of him and if he has to stop aoe to stay alive then he can not aoe.
100 percent more focused on themselves dpsing than surviving.
to be fair, as a tank, you should be tracking party cooldowns, mass dispel included, pulling those lashers onto the boss without MD is on you, but the attitude of the group is poor, so i feel for you.
Omni CD is the addon :)
No need to track anything. As explained, I have done the pack without a priest many times this week. Its not dangerous, as its the only damage in the whole phase for the DPS. They just needed to pay attention.