I can't help but think of all the grasping men who were using these women for their own power. Marriage was a dangerous game when one was a relative of the monarch. Poor girls.
And marriage was the only job a woman could get back in those days (well I guess they could be a cook or a wet nurse ... but I don't think those paid real well).
Women of a certain class could engage in trades such as picking, carding, spinning, dyeing, weaving, embroidery, and sewing. While these avenues of employment were not open to women of the nobility, skilled female artisans were critical to the economies of affluent households. Women experienced in the production of textiles provided all of the rugs, linens, and clothing fabrics used in any household.
Just to the two comments down below, think again - noble born woman at that time doing a job? Lol. They used to have two options before marriage along with motherhood and then nunnery, the latter of which was removed I figure with the change of the church. So yea - girls were literally taught to think from since they were kids that what they were supposed to do was to get married and have kids - and as there was no viable option for anything else being of their status (not that the changes for commoner would have been much greater given how property often belonged more to males of the house) - what else they even knew to do? I figure they just did not know any other way to get what they had been taught they would have to do.
Henry wed three Catherines, two Annes and a Jane. Dynasties choose dynastic names. The British royal family are still at it. Princess Anne is the only one of them who chose different names. Zara and Peter. She never had any ambitions of setting them on any throne or marking them as royal in such an overt way. Andrew's daughters are named after two of Queen Vicky's - Beatrice and Eugenie.
@@earthalydelights - I think Princess Anne knew that her kids would be wayyyy down in the order of succession and so she named them whatever she liked, knowing they'd never be the monarch.
It was a wild century. The world was still emerging from the Medieval era and transitioning to the early modern. The Tudors were caught smack in the middle of all that mess.
All these monarchies keep using the same names over and over glad I never took European history I'd need cards for each dynasty house era and number of Henry's George's Anne's at least Spain and England only had 2 queens each with the same name.
Wikipedia says Thomas, K’s younger boy, lived into his 40s and had married, but they had no kids. Edward, the elder, lived to 50, married, had a bunch of kids. E2 is his descendent Honestly, those boys were probably better off being classified as illegit
Once again, you’ve made my week! For us, it is inconceivable to imagine how all of these people lived their lives without going mad. A sister and a father beheaded here, an entire family beheaded there…..what a ghastly existence.
I read a book several years ago called "The Sisters Who Would be Queen" by Leanda de Lisle about the Grey sisters. It was excellent. I recommend it. Particularly after Jane's example, I don't think either one wanted to be queen. I think they wanted to marry, raise children and disappear into the background. Where unsanctioned marriages were concerned, Elizabeth I never came out looking too good. In that, she was too much like her father. She wanted ALL the attention to be on her, and she was paranoid about the stability of her throne, perhaps with some cause. An unsanctioned marriage was like gasoline on the fire of her insecurities. It's a sad story, all the way around.
I suspect Elizabeth's actions were more complicated than that. Her right to the throne was questioned for a lot of her reign. Although the Catholic forces would turn to Mary Queen of Scots as the legitimate heir, Henry's will made Mary and Katherine legitimate heirs to the throne if Elizabeth fell and the Protestant faction needed someone to rally around. Marrying without Elizabeth's permission left open the possibility that Katherine and Mary's husbands would suddenly decide to push the idea that Elizabeth wasn't legitimate, but Mary and/or Katherine WERE and any legitimate male children they had were the heirs to the English throne. Elizabeth was driven by more than a desire to be the center of attention. She was also driven by the knowledge that her position could be undermined. I feel for everyone in the situation. Henry left quite a mess for his heirs. Only Edward living a long life would have solved the dilemma.
Thank you for another interesting episode. Since I have noticed you seem to have an interest in royals, the Tudor era and female pirates, may I suggest looking in to the Swedish Princess Cecilia Gustavsdotter Vasa. She spent some time at Elizabeth's Court and was quite an interesting character. 😁
I think the more I learn about Elizabeth the scarier she becomes lol. I'm so glad you shared about these women. We're underrepresented as it is and I love hearing stories about the "tapestry" that made up the courts..not just the monarchs. ❤ much love, Dr Kat. Thanks for all you do.
I bet Mary married for love, or at least infatuation. If she'd been marrying for dynastic reasons, she wouldn't have married someone so far beneath her socially. My theory is that he realized she had a crush on him and played up to her, thinking to marry well and maybe get position and money. Katherine I can see as being more marrying out of love or desperation. It was considered a woman's highest duty and fulfillment in that time to marry and have children, and Elizabeth wasn't going to let her do that openly, since it could produce an heir to her throne, so she did it secretly. Maybe she thought once it was a done deal, Elizabeth would take pity on her, especially if she were already pregnant. Not the best plan, really.
I read Leanda de Lisle's book about the Grey sisters some years ago , The Sisters Who Would Be Queen, and when I see a reference to Chequers I sometimes think of poor Mary Grey. One woman with Grey blood who managed to stay on good terms with Elizabeth I (most of the time) was Elizabeth FitzGerald, the 'Fair Geraldine'. Maybe a good subject for Dr Kat?
Fascinating. I'll always be impressed by Elizabeth I's education and diplomatic abilities, but I think there can only be so much behavior justified by her situation. Love your work Dr.Kat!!
Thank you Dr Kat from us in Sydney, to be "locked in a ring of steel" as we seem to have given all Australia Covid Delta. It is so reassuring to hear you tell of hard times that did resolve.
Sadly it seems a few pushing their rights before responsibilities ruin it for the majority. Stay safe Michelle. I am another from Adelaide, keeping safe. Thank you Dr Kat for a very interesting video. Each video reminds me to be grateful I am alive here & now & not centuries ago. Keep safe.
Very interesting. History never talks about the secondary actors, whose lives are also important and for us, informative. I really think with power comes paranoia. And Elizabeth had many fears, so her actions towards the remaining Grey sister are logicall to me. As for the sisters, they were not very bright in court affairs, or they would had beeen more prudent. Thank you for your always great posts.
They were trapped by the customs of their time. Women who had sex HAD to be married. Birth control was not advanced, so having sex without having a child was not easy. They were young women who wanted what any person wants, a stable loving relationship. Due to Edward's actions and the actions of their father, they were in a position to be a threat to the throne. I'm sorry for them, their choices were limited.
There WERE plots against Elizabeth. From day 1. It's not paranoia if people really are after you. AND if everything were on the up and up, why not just ask for permission? Whether the Grey sisters were culpable or not, the people (men) around them almost certainly had ulterior motives that involved ambition. So Elizabeth's responses seem very logical. In fact, the only (potentially) illogical move was not just killing both sisters early on.
This is so interesting Dr Kat, in particular the mention of Elizabeth St Loe. Katherine no doubt confided in her as Elizabeth had been in service to the Grey family and helped raise all three Grey girls, she would have trusted this old family friend and hoped she would be an ally. . Would you consider doing a video on this amazing Elizabethan woman, otherwise known more widely as Bess of Hardwick? How did Bess manage to keep her head and her position through constantly changing and dangerous times?
Another great video, Dr. Kat. I really like hearing the stories of the lesser known players in history, they are just as important as the famous/infamous characters. See you next week!
During the reign of Mary Tudor, Frances and her daughters were given higher rank than Elizabeth and displayed open contempt for her. They seemed to (foolishly) believe Katherine would be named Mary's heir. Elizabeth did not forget or forgive this treatment. Katherine and Mary were very foolish.
I agree I've never liked the Greys for this reason they always acted so bitchy and entitled to the Crown when it was never theirs to begin with. Elizabeth's treatment of them was very much justified considering they never treated her kindly or with any respect whatsoever. They wanted her crown! Henry and Frances were to blame for what happened to their daughters.
Seems like they married for security but they must have realized what they were doing was very risky, given their positions. Wonder what happened to Catherine's two boys.
Always enjoy watching your stories, and then reading up on what you leave out. BTW, even though I've been raised in the U.S., I smoked the history portion of the citizenship test. Of course, having been born in Ipswich, I'm already a citizen.
Thank you for this video. I didn’t know much about Mary and Katherine Gray. I wonder if their marriages were a way of rebelling and asserting some control over their lives.
Thank you!!!! As always, your discussion is inciteful, informative, and entertaining. I have been a Tudor history fan for eons, and thoroughly enjoy all of your videos. Have you ever provided a list of the books shown behind you? One can always learn more....there is always the book or the expert out there that has uncovered something new. Take care.
Fascinating and I love your commentary. Brilliant and sad story. We focus on Jane and I personally hadn't considered any siblings. I didn't realise they were descendants from Henry's sister Mary.
Thank you Dr. Kat! I would love if you did a video on Anne Boleyn’s 2 Aunts that were governesses for Elizabeth and Mary. One Aunt I know was Alice Boleyn Clere, but I can’t find more information about her. I’m interested because she is a great grandmother of mine. I read that the “Other Boleyn” Aunt, Lady Anne Shelton was cruel to Princess (Lady) Mary. Would they have taught Elizabeth about her mother?
Hi Dr. Kat, thank you again for a well-presented dive into Tudor history! I did not know much about these sisters, which is why I always look forward to your Friday postings. Also, thank you for my Cameo. It meant a great deal to me.
@Sharon Smith Imagine if lady Jane Grey was never killed and she looked after herself and had kids with Gifford and if she was still alive in 1603 how do you think England would have been if she ruled England in 1603
Fantastic video Dr Kat! 👏👍 Looking very Summer ready in that top if I may say 🏖️ 🌅 Loved your narration, you came across as a storyteller just chatting to us. Nice to see a video on Katherine and Mary, Jane Grey's lesser known sisters. They certainly are very shadowy figures, for a long time I didn't realise Jane actually had sisters let alone sisters with a story of their own to tell.
Good point -- I hadn't thought of that. Plus, their mother Frances Brandon married a second time -- to a much younger man, Adrian Stokes. So the example of marrying for love was entrenched in the Tudor/Suffolk families.
So much pressure. To comply, to maintain secrets, and to keep yourself safe. Folly to act secretly on any matter. Death was common when betrayal or intention to usurp was suspected.
Many years ago I read a historical novel where Mary Grey was the main character. The author portrayed Mary as a "dwarf" (nomenclature of the time). Does anybody remember this book?
In Helen Castor's England's Forgotten Queen, she states that Lady Jane Grey didn't want to marry Guilford. Not sure this is the correct space to ask, but I wanted to research Dr. Kat's videos to see if they mentioned any reasons why. Were they of equal rank?
I love your amazing stories of historic royalty! All 3 options are plausible. My only question is what is the purpose of the queen blessing marriages outside of bloodline? Or is that the only purpose?
Have a question about Mary Grey. In the novel "Innocent Traitor" by Alison Weir, it is said that Mary was born with a deformity. If that was so, what deformity did she suffer from?
After the treatment Elizabeth I got from her father and her sister Mary I, I wonder if Elizabeth could have been diagnosed as being afflicted with PTSD?
I so enjoy your channel, Dr Kat. My feed is full of Brits. It's my dream to move. Tudor period is my favorite, but any history is mesmerizing to me. Real castles all around - a dream come true. I'd spend all my money on the museums. Thank you so much for making this channel for us. 💗 Stuck in America.
I don’t think either one of them had ANY aspirations of following in their sister’s footsteps. I think they wanted to marry and have families, and live their lives in relative luxury.
Imagine if lady Jane grey was never killed and she was with Gifford and they both had kids and lady Jane grey looked after her self and made sure she was healthy then she would have been queen in 1603 imagine how she would have ruled England
@@raumaanking Not really Elizabeth would have reigned before she could have claimed the throne. Any child that Jane &Guilford could have made a claim after Elizabeth though
@@happybunny8704 oh yeah I know most likely Jane would be dead but imagine if she was still alive in 1603 at the age of 66 she might have lived just as long as Elizabeth and could have ruled for like 3 years maybe died in 1606 or 1607
Wow! I find this very interesting as Thomas Keyes is a family ancestor of mine. Another ancestor was allegedly a “poet laureate” to Queen Elizabeth I. In this video, you have corroborated a small part of the research my second cousin did in the 1980’s. The Key family came to the colonies well before the American Revolution. My maternal grandfather was Harvey Clovis Key. You mentioned that Thomas was described as being 6’8”, which adds even more intrigue. All of the males of the Key family are and were very tall - over 6’2”. My grandfather was 6’4”. It is our understanding that the original name was Kaye, then later was Keyes, then Key. Francis Scott Key is also part of the lineage. I am very happy to be able to add a few more details to our family story! Thank you! 😁
Do some of your own research, online or in a library. I've been studying the English royal line using various sources over decades. In short, King Charles is a descendent of Katherine Grey and, therefore, Mary Tudor and Charles Brandon.
Great video! I would think that both girls looked to their grandmother's marriage to Charles Brandon as the example... better to beg forgiveness than ask permission. I doubt Elizabeth would have allowed either to marry. She ws not about to allow for any potential heirs to float about. In that way she was very much like her grandfather Henry VII who cleared all of his wife's relatives out of the way post haste after snatching the crown at Bosworth. I love that Katherine's grandson, William Seymour, 2nd Duke of Somerset (1588-1660) also made a secret marriage to Arabella Stuart (no heirs with her but 8 by his 2nd wife), which ticked James I off no end, but he was loyal to the throne...
It is counterintuitive that being of Royal Blood was simply a disaster for much of the heirs of Henry VII. They positively define “dysfunctional family”!! Excellent again, Dr. Kat!!
I don't think they conspired for the throne. The choice of husbands is unadequated for this. Most probably they were lonelly and believed that some sort of marriage would fix their lives. What happened to the Katherine's boys? They survived?
They certainly didn’t learn from experience did they. It’s such a shame Jane was used as she was by her ambitious family. Having lost her head you would think her sisters would be more prudent. It sounds like Katherine married for love as they went on to have another son. I tend towards ambition on the part of Mary’s husband as others have suggested. Why take such risks though? Did they have succession ambitions? Hard to tell somehow I doubt it.
Poor Jane, she was a puppet for politicians. I would like to learn more about what was happening in Ireland in the Tudor times. I am Irish and would love to learn more.
Same. The Tudors didn't have a high opinion of Ireland. They saw it as a wild land full of unruly savages. Elizabeth 1st was harsh on the Irish, a Catholic country. She wanted to turn Ireland Protestant but didn't get her way. We are a stubborn resilient bunch
@@Shane-Flanagan it's so hard to research but I know that a lot went on in Ireland at that time, but its very hard to track down event. Sorry for the bummer.. Ireland had it very hard time for 800 years and some events were glazed over... the great famine (genocide). History is written my the winner
If Katherine and Mary had asked permission of the Queen to marry their chosen men, what do you think Queen Elizabeth's response would have been? Do you think she would have refused them out of hand? I've often wondered if she would have ever let them marry anybody at all, or if her goal was just to have them remain single forever. I do think she would have been more likely to approve Mary's choice, since her husband was not noble and his family had no prior royal connections (like the Seymours did).
In the case of Catherine I believe she was encouraged to marry and produce an heir by men of power (Dudley?) the fact that she was able to get pregnant while imprisoned in the tower means that people in high places were sympathetic to the marriage Her boys were declared illegitimate, but if need be could be legitimized. In fact both of her son's were recognized by their father and the eldest son's descendants carried on with the earldom. Under Henry Viii will her son Edward should have been King after Elizabeth. But it was ignored and it went to James of Scotland descendant of Margaret, Henry's older sister.
I think they married to have some stability to their lives. Women didn't have many other means of surviving. Mary maybe chose her gentleman hoping that his lower station would be less of a threat to Elizabeth.
You made me laugh out loud with the phrase; 'her "loving" husband was petitioning... (unsuccessfully)...for an annulment' 🤣... If all your knowledge & research wasn't enough the make me huge fan of you and your channel - then your sense of wit & wry humour would definitely make me one✌🏻. 👋🏻greetings from 🇳🇱.
Gosh - Henry VII's descendants could write the book on poor marriage choices! None of their family had much luck with spouses. No wonder Queen Elizabeth I thought it safer to remain unmarried!
Mary Grey's marriage seems a classic fatherless child marrying an older man (replacement father). It seems clear the husband hoped to gain in a marriage so close to the throne, because he wanted out as soon as they were in trouble. Katherine's choices seems more vague. I think there were those who pushed/hinted her into marriage and positions toward the throne. I think what happened to their sister, Jane, was enough to encourage all to play a waiting game. I think many thought Elizabeth never would marry (but would never speak of it). Grooming Katherine would seem the best choice. It may even have been Katherine's idea/plan. She may have thought a secret marriage would help. It could also be as simple as the example of Queen Mary. She didn't want to be "too old" by the time she may have become queen. Getting forgiveness after the fact, especially with a child already conceived, may have seemed a good option at the time.
Interesting take on it, and I think you may have hit on something. It certainly seems a logical, if very risky move on Katherine's part. Really I don't understand why Elizabeth didn't buy into it. As an alleged 'Protestant' Queen, Katherine made a much better option from Elizabeth's angle than Mary Stuart, who Did have her eyes on Liz's throne, and was a Catholic. By simply accepting Katherine and her kids, she was securing a Protestant dynasty which also went straight back to her own grandfather and founder of the Tudors. Whilst Mary did have a more than credible claim, she was a Catholic and a proven loose cannon. Sometimes I think Elizabeth was just a frustrated old spinster, and confused by marriage. With her family history who can blame her? But her vindictive treatment of people who Did marry, without Her consent and then had the temerity to produce offspring is mean spirited and hints at jealousy. Dog in a manger. She couldn't/wouldn't marry herself, but she was envious when those close to her did. There is also a hint of that famous Tudor narcissism.. How Dare those around her prefer someone else to Her? Didn't they know their world should revolve around Her?
@@hogwashmcturnip8930Eh... while her treatment of male favorites getting married may have been jealousy, the ladies of her chamber are a different case. Their constant presence affirmed her chastity, her moral rectitude, and her right to rule. If they themselves were sneaking around contracting secret marriages and getting pregnant, it cast doubt on all of that. It makes sense she would have been pissed.
@@Eloraurora nah, it was because Liz was a narcissistic control freak who was afraid of dying. She would not countenance the idea of an heir, which is why she very nearly screwed it all up. I do get your point though. I think people forget that Liz was probably quite damaged. She had seen 6 wives, 2, including her own mother, judicially murdered, watched what happened to women who didn't deliver the goods from between their legs, watched her half brother be manipulated and her half sister nearly give the country away to Spain. She had quite possibly been molested as a teenager and had very nearly been executed herself. I think she is allowed a little paranoia. Not good for the country though!
@@megwyn1611 I think she left it up in the air , but as far as the Greys go, the sisters died before E did, and with K’s boys being officially illegit, they didn’t count either. Looks like Margaret Stanley was next, but she died, too. The next potential claimant, Anne, just didn’t pursue it. Considering what Wiki says about her life, id say she had enough to deal with.
Perhaps they were haunted by the spector of Queen Mary. Prevented from marrying for many years because her claim made any marriage (or heirs) of hers a threat to the established order. She wound up in an unhappy and short-lived marriage, was not able to have children, and died young. I could definitely see the two Grey girls fearing to get caught in that same cycle. Being aging maidens as Elizabeth replays her father's role in the matter; certainly her jealousy and paranoia seems to have been sufficient to make her never approving a marriage for either of them seem plausible. Perhaps they strategized that it was a better idea to ask for forgiveness for a secret marriage, than to be explicitly told "no" and then go against that. Imagining that once they were married, and ideally pregnant, there would be no going back, and eventually the Queen's anger would fade. They underestimated how far she'd be willing to go (i.e. annulling a clearly valid marriage on a technicality in order to delegitimize a child). Their odd choices may have been attempts to pick husbands that Elizabeth would not find particularly threatening, or even just men who were willing to risk her ire, whom they could contact without intermediaries. Honestly, the fact that they both attempted the same hare-brained approach at around the same time? That reads to me as "two teenagers/young adults without much sense between them cook up what they think of as a failsafe plan to get what they want", rather than a conspiracy. Surely if someone with any actual political acumen had been in charge, at the very least they would have tried it out with one girl only, and kept the other one back as a reserve if it backfired. Given the fate of their father's political scheming, they probably didn't have any particularly good role models for how to navigate the dangerous waters they found themselves in by virtue of their birth.
I like to imagine that someone (Walshingham?) had (probably forged) documents confirming the legitimacy Katherine's marriage. The option to make Katherine's son Elizabeth's heir (should no other more suitable heir become available) just seems too useful to ignore.
The outrage at the secret marriages makes so much more sense now, a lot of places skip over the royal status but clearly being cousins of Queen Elizabeth was extremely dangerous precisely because of being a relative, so making them and their children heirs to the throne even if indirectly
I can't help but think of all the grasping men who were using these women for their own power. Marriage was a dangerous game when one was a relative of the monarch. Poor girls.
And marriage was the only job a woman could get back in those days (well I guess they could be a cook or a wet nurse ... but I don't think those paid real well).
Women of a certain class could engage in trades such as picking, carding, spinning, dyeing, weaving, embroidery, and sewing. While these avenues of employment were not open to women of the nobility, skilled female artisans were critical to the economies of affluent households. Women experienced in the production of textiles provided all of the rugs, linens, and clothing fabrics used in any household.
Just to the two comments down below, think again - noble born woman at that time doing a job? Lol. They used to have two options before marriage along with motherhood and then nunnery, the latter of which was removed I figure with the change of the church. So yea - girls were literally taught to think from since they were kids that what they were supposed to do was to get married and have kids - and as there was no viable option for anything else being of their status (not that the changes for commoner would have been much greater given how property often belonged more to males of the house) - what else they even knew to do? I figure they just did not know any other way to get what they had been taught they would have to do.
Marriage was dangerous for every woman as so many died in childbirth.
Tudor stories are always so wild. Everyone is Mary, Elizabeth, Jane, Thomas, or Edward. It's almost impossible to keep them straight hahaha
What about all the Henry and Edward kings during the wars of the roses? I can never keep them straight in my head!
Henry wed three Catherines, two Annes and a Jane. Dynasties choose dynastic names. The British royal family are still at it. Princess Anne is the only one of them who chose different names. Zara and Peter. She never had any ambitions of setting them on any throne or marking them as royal in such an overt way. Andrew's daughters are named after two of Queen Vicky's - Beatrice and Eugenie.
@@earthalydelights - I think Princess Anne knew that her kids would be wayyyy down in the order of succession and so she named them whatever she liked, knowing they'd never be the monarch.
It was a wild century. The world was still emerging from the Medieval era and transitioning to the early modern. The Tudors were caught smack in the middle of all that mess.
All these monarchies keep using the same names over and over glad I never took European history I'd need cards for each dynasty house era and number of Henry's George's Anne's at least Spain and England only had 2 queens each with the same name.
Wikipedia says Thomas, K’s younger boy, lived into his 40s and had married, but they had no kids. Edward, the elder, lived to 50, married, had a bunch of kids. E2 is his descendent
Honestly, those boys were probably better off being classified as illegit
Thank you for the information on the sons, I wondered about their fate.
Thank you! I was wondering what happened to them.
Once again, you’ve made my week! For us, it is inconceivable to imagine how all of these people lived their lives without going mad. A sister and a father beheaded here, an entire family beheaded there…..what a ghastly existence.
I often think of the same thing!! How do people/families move on from that amount of severe trauma??
I read a book several years ago called "The Sisters Who Would be Queen" by Leanda de Lisle about the Grey sisters. It was excellent. I recommend it. Particularly after Jane's example, I don't think either one wanted to be queen. I think they wanted to marry, raise children and disappear into the background.
Where unsanctioned marriages were concerned, Elizabeth I never came out looking too good. In that, she was too much like her father. She wanted ALL the attention to be on her, and she was paranoid about the stability of her throne, perhaps with some cause. An unsanctioned marriage was like gasoline on the fire of her insecurities.
It's a sad story, all the way around.
I suspect Elizabeth's actions were more complicated than that. Her right to the throne was questioned for a lot of her reign. Although the Catholic forces would turn to Mary Queen of Scots as the legitimate heir, Henry's will made Mary and Katherine legitimate heirs to the throne if Elizabeth fell and the Protestant faction needed someone to rally around. Marrying without Elizabeth's permission left open the possibility that Katherine and Mary's husbands would suddenly decide to push the idea that Elizabeth wasn't legitimate, but Mary and/or Katherine WERE and any legitimate male children they had were the heirs to the English throne. Elizabeth was driven by more than a desire to be the center of attention. She was also driven by the knowledge that her position could be undermined. I feel for everyone in the situation. Henry left quite a mess for his heirs. Only Edward living a long life would have solved the dilemma.
Thank you for another interesting episode. Since I have noticed you seem to have an interest in royals, the Tudor era and female pirates, may I suggest looking in to the Swedish Princess Cecilia Gustavsdotter Vasa. She spent some time at Elizabeth's Court and was quite an interesting character. 😁
Ever heard of her. Thank you, I’ll look her up 🇦🇺🇦🇺🇦🇺
I think the more I learn about Elizabeth the scarier she becomes lol.
I'm so glad you shared about these women. We're underrepresented as it is and I love hearing stories about the "tapestry" that made up the courts..not just the monarchs. ❤ much love, Dr Kat. Thanks for all you do.
I bet Mary married for love, or at least infatuation. If she'd been marrying for dynastic reasons, she wouldn't have married someone so far beneath her socially. My theory is that he realized she had a crush on him and played up to her, thinking to marry well and maybe get position and money.
Katherine I can see as being more marrying out of love or desperation. It was considered a woman's highest duty and fulfillment in that time to marry and have children, and Elizabeth wasn't going to let her do that openly, since it could produce an heir to her throne, so she did it secretly. Maybe she thought once it was a done deal, Elizabeth would take pity on her, especially if she were already pregnant. Not the best plan, really.
I read Leanda de Lisle's book about the Grey sisters some years ago , The Sisters Who Would Be Queen, and when I see a reference to Chequers I sometimes think of poor Mary Grey. One woman with Grey blood who managed to stay on good terms with Elizabeth I (most of the time) was Elizabeth FitzGerald, the 'Fair Geraldine'. Maybe a good subject for Dr Kat?
I like that suggestion, too.
Yesss!!!!!
I love listening to Dr Kat in the evening. Quiet yet interesting information that helps me wind down from my day.
I love listening and learning about the past, much more interesting than the Kardashians.
Fascinating. I'll always be impressed by Elizabeth I's education and diplomatic abilities, but I think there can only be so much behavior justified by her situation. Love your work Dr.Kat!!
Thank you Dr Kat from us in Sydney, to be "locked in a ring of steel" as we seem to have given all Australia Covid Delta. It is so reassuring to hear you tell of hard times that did resolve.
I'm from Adelaide and we are in lockdown till Wednesday. I truly hope it all goes well and there aren't anymore cases. 🤞
Stay safe ❤
Sadly it seems a few pushing their rights before responsibilities ruin it for the majority. Stay safe Michelle. I am another from Adelaide, keeping safe. Thank you Dr Kat for a very interesting video. Each video reminds me to be grateful I am alive here & now & not centuries ago. Keep safe.
Hi from locked down south Australia 🙋♀️🥶🌧🌧🇦🇺🇦🇺
@@gonefishing167 crazy weather!!!
I’m country south Australia. It’s bucketing down with rain with thunder and lightening. The dog and cat do not appreciate it. 🙋♀️🇦🇺🇦🇺🇦🇺
You never fail with your research and narration. As well as a lovely speaking voice, your skin is beautiful and compliments your raven wings hair.
I love this I tried to find out about them through Wikipedia but was just not enough thank you so much
Could you do a video on Sybille of cleves? I’ve only found one on RUclips and it’s not very good
Very interesting. History never talks about the secondary actors, whose lives are also important and for us, informative. I really think with power comes paranoia. And Elizabeth had many fears, so her actions towards the remaining Grey sister are logicall to me. As for the sisters, they were not very bright in court affairs, or they would had beeen more prudent. Thank you for your always great posts.
They were trapped by the customs of their time. Women who had sex HAD to be married. Birth control was not advanced, so having sex without having a child was not easy. They were young women who wanted what any person wants, a stable loving relationship.
Due to Edward's actions and the actions of their father, they were in a position to be a threat to the throne. I'm sorry for them, their choices were limited.
Hindsight is always 20/20, isn’t it? In this case, the past is so very distant that all the facts are impossible to know
There WERE plots against Elizabeth. From day 1. It's not paranoia if people really are after you. AND if everything were on the up and up, why not just ask for permission? Whether the Grey sisters were culpable or not, the people (men) around them almost certainly had ulterior motives that involved ambition. So Elizabeth's responses seem very logical. In fact, the only (potentially) illogical move was not just killing both sisters early on.
I always thought there should be more research on the sisters of Lady Jane Grey - fascinating as always, Kat!
This is so interesting Dr Kat, in particular the mention of Elizabeth St Loe. Katherine no doubt confided in her as Elizabeth had been in service to the Grey family and helped raise all three Grey girls, she would have trusted this old family friend and hoped she would be an ally. .
Would you consider doing a video on this amazing Elizabethan woman, otherwise known more widely as Bess of Hardwick? How did Bess manage to keep her head and her position through constantly changing and dangerous times?
ruclips.net/video/YvYCnP32sV4/видео.html
Thank you. I knew nothing of these 2 ladies prior to your video.
Another great video, Dr. Kat. I really like hearing the stories of the lesser known players in history, they are just as important as the famous/infamous characters. See you next week!
During the reign of Mary Tudor, Frances and her daughters were given higher rank than Elizabeth and displayed open contempt for her. They seemed to (foolishly) believe Katherine would be named Mary's heir.
Elizabeth did not forget or forgive this treatment. Katherine and Mary were very foolish.
I agree I've never liked the Greys for this reason they always acted so bitchy and entitled to the Crown when it was never theirs to begin with. Elizabeth's treatment of them was very much justified considering they never treated her kindly or with any respect whatsoever. They wanted her crown! Henry and Frances were to blame for what happened to their daughters.
Seems like they married for security but they must have realized what they were doing was very risky, given their positions. Wonder what happened to Catherine's two boys.
I suspect they wanted a baby...and were willing to risk much to get a child
Her eldest son had heirs and King Charles is descended from him through his maternal grandmother.
Im obsessed with your channel. Such sad stories! 🥹
I’m sure there was thoughts in the outer edges of the court were whispering in Mary and janes ears!
Always enjoy watching your stories, and then reading up on what you leave out. BTW, even though I've been raised in the U.S., I smoked the history portion of the citizenship test. Of course, having been born in Ipswich, I'm already a citizen.
Thank you for this video. I didn’t know much about Mary and Katherine Gray. I wonder if their marriages were a way of rebelling and asserting some control over their lives.
Thank you!!!! As always, your discussion is inciteful, informative, and entertaining. I have been a Tudor history fan for eons, and thoroughly enjoy all of your videos. Have you ever provided a list of the books shown behind you? One can always learn more....there is always the book or the expert out there that has uncovered something new. Take care.
Can you make a video about their cousin Margaret? The daughter of Elenor, Frances’ little sister?
Loving the hairstyle
I didn't know this story. Thanks, as always, for your interesting video lectures!!
Fascinating and I love your commentary. Brilliant and sad story. We focus on Jane and I personally hadn't considered any siblings. I didn't realise they were descendants from Henry's sister Mary.
I love your little critters on the bookshelf. Bet you’re a really fun person.
Thank you Dr. Kat! I would love if you did a video on Anne Boleyn’s 2 Aunts that were governesses for Elizabeth and Mary. One Aunt I know was Alice Boleyn Clere, but I can’t find more information about her. I’m interested because she is a great grandmother of mine. I read that the “Other Boleyn” Aunt, Lady Anne Shelton was cruel to Princess (Lady) Mary. Would they have taught Elizabeth about her mother?
Thank you for this piece! I just suggested it recently. I have read a couple very interesting fictional accounts of the sisters.
I have just found your channel. How wonderful. So easy to listen to. I can see you becoming a favourite for me.
Have you ever done any on the Grey side of the family?
That could be a fun watch.
FYI, The sound seems abit echo or different sound quality at the intro.
Hi Dr. Kat, thank you again for a well-presented dive into Tudor history! I did not know much about these sisters, which is why I always look forward to your Friday postings. Also, thank you for my Cameo. It meant a great deal to me.
Poor Grey sisters. Doesn't seem like they had a lot of common sense, does it?
@Sharon Smith Imagine if lady Jane Grey was never killed and she looked after herself and had kids with Gifford and if she was still alive in 1603 how do you think England would have been if she ruled England in 1603
@@raumaanking The history of Scottland and the existence of the UK (if it happened) would certainly be different.
Fantastic video Dr Kat! 👏👍
Looking very Summer ready in that top if I may say 🏖️ 🌅
Loved your narration, you came across as a storyteller just chatting to us.
Nice to see a video on Katherine and Mary, Jane Grey's lesser known sisters. They certainly are very shadowy figures, for a long time I didn't realise Jane actually had sisters let alone sisters with a story of their own to tell.
I think that I am bloody glad that I didn’t live back then. I would probably be in the tower.....😊🇨🇦🐉
It was safer to be a commoner.
I think we all would haha
@@Nightbird1914a member of gentry/countryman was better.
The apple doesn't fall far from the tree. The Grey sisters may have simply been following the example of their maternal Grandmother Mary Tudor.
Good point -- I hadn't thought of that. Plus, their mother Frances Brandon married a second time -- to a much younger man, Adrian Stokes. So the example of marrying for love was entrenched in the Tudor/Suffolk families.
Another interesting video. You never disappoint. Always happy to see when RUclips alerts me that you have uploaded another video.
So much pressure. To comply, to maintain secrets, and to keep yourself safe.
Folly to act secretly on any matter.
Death was common when betrayal or intention to usurp was suspected.
Fabulous video! Thank you for sharing your research and your passion for history!
Great video. Just an FYI though - the audio seems a bit echo-y, like the difference between a room mic vs a personal mic.
I love your channel. I also love the top you are wearing.
Many years ago I read a historical novel where Mary Grey was the main character. The author portrayed Mary as a "dwarf" (nomenclature of the time). Does anybody remember this book?
I believe you mean The Last Tudor by Philippa Gregory.
Oh my goodness. I don’t think I can hold out from downloading tic tok now! Well done!!!!!!!!
What happened to the two boys? 🤔
Thank you for all of your research.
I would like to see Dr Kat made a video about Walshingham
How did he get his role as Her Spymaster and what did he hope to gain from Elizabeth
Thank you so very much for this very informative video, Dr. Kat!
In Helen Castor's England's Forgotten Queen, she states that Lady Jane Grey didn't want to marry Guilford. Not sure this is the correct space to ask, but I wanted to research Dr. Kat's videos to see if they mentioned any reasons why. Were they of equal rank?
Hi Doctor Kat!
I love your amazing stories of historic royalty! All 3 options are plausible. My only question is what is the purpose of the queen blessing marriages outside of bloodline? Or is that the only purpose?
Have a question about Mary Grey. In the novel "Innocent Traitor" by Alison Weir, it is said that Mary was born with a deformity. If that was so, what deformity did she suffer from?
If you’re trying to get on the right side of Elizabeth I, why would you call your Seymour child, Thomas?
After the treatment Elizabeth I got from her father and her sister Mary I, I wonder if Elizabeth could have been diagnosed as being afflicted with PTSD?
I so enjoy your channel, Dr Kat. My feed is full of Brits. It's my dream to move. Tudor period is my favorite, but any history is mesmerizing to me. Real castles all around - a dream come true. I'd spend all my money on the museums. Thank you so much for making this channel for us. 💗 Stuck in America.
If Henry the viii will is upheld to include his 3 legitimate children, why wasn't Edward VI's
This has long puzzled me
🤔 Confused
I don’t think either one of them had ANY aspirations of following in their sister’s footsteps. I think they wanted to marry and have families, and live their lives in relative luxury.
another home run for dr kat want more
Really enjoyed this as I often wondered what happened to them thanks X
Imagine if lady Jane grey was never killed and she was with Gifford and they both had kids and lady Jane grey looked after her self and made sure she was healthy then she would have been queen in 1603 imagine how she would have ruled England
@@raumaanking Not really Elizabeth would have reigned before she could have claimed the throne. Any child that Jane &Guilford could have made a claim after Elizabeth though
@@happybunny8704 oh yeah I know most likely Jane would be dead but imagine if she was still alive in 1603 at the age of 66 she might have lived just as long as Elizabeth and could have ruled for like 3 years maybe died in 1606 or 1607
Yay, history!
Thank you. I'm not up for current events right now.
You know they meant Elizabeth I not II who still is the Queen.
If I had thought it was history of the corgi lady I probably wouldn't have clicked at all.
Love when l see you've posted a video. 👏👍✌
Hello I am in Sydney Australia, I couldn’t watch the video, only de audio was working, I wondering why?
If I'm not mistaken, Mary made certain that there were witnesses to her marriage so it couldn't be denied like her sister's.
Wow! I find this very interesting as Thomas Keyes is a family ancestor of mine. Another ancestor was allegedly a “poet laureate” to Queen Elizabeth I. In this video, you have corroborated a small part of the research my second cousin did in the 1980’s. The Key family came to the colonies well before the American Revolution. My maternal grandfather was Harvey Clovis Key. You mentioned that Thomas was described as being 6’8”, which adds even more intrigue. All of the males of the Key family are and were very tall - over 6’2”. My grandfather was 6’4”. It is our understanding that the original name was Kaye, then later was Keyes, then Key. Francis Scott Key is also part of the lineage. I am very happy to be able to add a few more details to our family story! Thank you! 😁
Mary Elizabeth named 1960. They're still doing it
Elizabeth I, was a dominating cruel queen in many ways, also paranoid.
Any information on Katherine's younger son Thomas?
Fascinating. Those poor girls.
Anyone know what happened to Catherine and Edward's children?
Think on a useful chart, they do 1 that line is given. Explaining if they has been King.
Hope that help, if u r able to go to the chart?
Do some of your own research, online or in a library. I've been studying the English royal line using various sources over decades.
In short, King Charles is a descendent of Katherine Grey and, therefore, Mary Tudor and Charles Brandon.
😅 Love the malevolent - ha ha..you would be disappointed.
Great video! I would think that both girls looked to their grandmother's marriage to Charles Brandon as the example... better to beg forgiveness than ask permission. I doubt Elizabeth would have allowed either to marry. She ws not about to allow for any potential heirs to float about. In that way she was very much like her grandfather Henry VII who cleared all of his wife's relatives out of the way post haste after snatching the crown at Bosworth. I love that Katherine's grandson, William Seymour, 2nd Duke of Somerset (1588-1660) also made a secret marriage to Arabella Stuart (no heirs with her but 8 by his 2nd wife), which ticked James I off no end, but he was loyal to the throne...
It is counterintuitive that being of Royal Blood was simply a disaster for much of the heirs of Henry VII. They positively define “dysfunctional family”!! Excellent again, Dr. Kat!!
Counterintuitive but nonetheless true!!!
I don't think they conspired for the throne. The choice of husbands is unadequated for this. Most probably they were lonelly and believed that some sort of marriage would fix their lives. What happened to the Katherine's boys? They survived?
Yes I know Edward was later made the 2nd duke of somerset
No sorry his son was made the 2nd duke
Great video! I'm just curious what symptoms she displayed that caused you to believe it might be anorexia.
They certainly didn’t learn from experience did they. It’s such a shame Jane was used as she was by her ambitious family. Having lost her head you would think her sisters would be more prudent. It sounds like Katherine married for love as they went on to have another son. I tend towards ambition on the part of Mary’s husband as others have suggested. Why take such risks though? Did they have succession ambitions? Hard to tell somehow I doubt it.
Poor Jane, she was a puppet for politicians. I would like to learn more about what was happening in Ireland in the Tudor times. I am Irish and would love to learn more.
Same. The Tudors didn't have a high opinion of Ireland. They saw it as a wild land full of unruly savages.
Elizabeth 1st was harsh on the Irish, a Catholic country. She wanted to turn Ireland Protestant but didn't get her way. We are a stubborn resilient bunch
@@Shane-Flanagan it's so hard to research but I know that a lot went on in Ireland at that time, but its very hard to track down event. Sorry for the bummer.. Ireland had it very hard time for 800 years and some events were glazed over... the great famine (genocide). History is written my the winner
If Katherine and Mary had asked permission of the Queen to marry their chosen men, what do you think Queen Elizabeth's response would have been? Do you think she would have refused them out of hand? I've often wondered if she would have ever let them marry anybody at all, or if her goal was just to have them remain single forever. I do think she would have been more likely to approve Mary's choice, since her husband was not noble and his family had no prior royal connections (like the Seymours did).
In the case of Catherine I believe she was encouraged to marry and produce an heir by men of power (Dudley?) the fact that she was able to get pregnant while imprisoned in the tower means that people in high places were sympathetic to the marriage Her boys were declared illegitimate, but if need be could be legitimized. In fact both of her son's were recognized by their father and the eldest son's descendants carried on with the earldom. Under Henry Viii will her son Edward should have been King after Elizabeth. But it was ignored and it went to James of Scotland descendant of Margaret, Henry's older sister.
I have Frances Brandon married to a Sir John Lawrence Earl of Ashton in my line. Is this true? Thanks Dr. Kat. Love your history channel.
I think they married to have some stability to their lives. Women didn't have many other means of surviving. Mary maybe chose her gentleman hoping that his lower station would be less of a threat to Elizabeth.
You made me laugh out loud with the phrase; 'her "loving" husband was petitioning... (unsuccessfully)...for an annulment' 🤣...
If all your knowledge & research wasn't enough the make me huge fan of you and your channel - then your sense of wit & wry humour would definitely make me one✌🏻. 👋🏻greetings from 🇳🇱.
I believe the sisters wanted to take control of their lives. What happened to the 2 little boys, did they spend their entire lives in the Tower?
Gosh - Henry VII's descendants could write the book on poor marriage choices! None of their family had much luck with spouses. No wonder Queen Elizabeth I thought it safer to remain unmarried!
Mary Grey's marriage seems a classic fatherless child marrying an older man (replacement father). It seems clear the husband hoped to gain in a marriage so close to the throne, because he wanted out as soon as they were in trouble. Katherine's choices seems more vague. I think there were those who pushed/hinted her into marriage and positions toward the throne. I think what happened to their sister, Jane, was enough to encourage all to play a waiting game. I think many thought Elizabeth never would marry (but would never speak of it). Grooming Katherine would seem the best choice. It may even have been Katherine's idea/plan. She may have thought a secret marriage would help. It could also be as simple as the example of Queen Mary. She didn't want to be "too old" by the time she may have become queen. Getting forgiveness after the fact, especially with a child already conceived, may have seemed a good option at the time.
Interesting take on it, and I think you may have hit on something. It certainly seems a logical, if very risky move on Katherine's part. Really I don't understand why Elizabeth didn't buy into it.
As an alleged 'Protestant' Queen, Katherine made a much better option from Elizabeth's angle than Mary Stuart, who Did have her eyes on Liz's throne, and was a Catholic.
By simply accepting Katherine and her kids, she was securing a Protestant dynasty which also went straight back to her own grandfather and founder of the Tudors.
Whilst Mary did have a more than credible claim, she was a Catholic and a proven loose cannon.
Sometimes I think Elizabeth was just a frustrated old spinster, and confused by marriage. With her family history who can blame her?
But her vindictive treatment of people who Did marry, without Her consent and then had the temerity to produce offspring is mean spirited and hints at jealousy. Dog in a manger. She couldn't/wouldn't marry herself, but she was envious when those close to her did. There is also a hint of that famous Tudor narcissism.. How Dare those around her prefer someone else to Her? Didn't they know their world should revolve around Her?
@@hogwashmcturnip8930Eh... while her treatment of male favorites getting married may have been jealousy, the ladies of her chamber are a different case. Their constant presence affirmed her chastity, her moral rectitude, and her right to rule. If they themselves were sneaking around contracting secret marriages and getting pregnant, it cast doubt on all of that. It makes sense she would have been pissed.
@@Eloraurora nah, it was because Liz was a narcissistic control freak who was afraid of dying. She would not countenance the idea of an heir, which is why she very nearly screwed it all up. I do get your point though.
I think people forget that Liz was probably quite damaged. She had seen 6 wives, 2, including her own mother, judicially murdered, watched what happened to women who didn't deliver the goods from between their legs, watched her half brother be manipulated and her half sister nearly give the country away to Spain. She had quite possibly been molested as a teenager and had very nearly been executed herself. I think she is allowed a little paranoia. Not good for the country though!
What if Jane Grey married King Edward VI?
Knowing that permission was required, who is conducting the marriages??
What happened to Catherine’s boys? Did they die in prison also?
I want to know what happened to Katherine and her husband’s two sons?
So why did Elizabeth I prefer James I over the Grey women's kids (or themselves as she was a woman too)?
James was in the senior line, through Bess’s aunt Margaret, the eldest of Henry 8’s sisters. The Greys were scions of baby sister Mary
@@bryanmcgucken7209 I guess what I'm asking is why she overrode her own father's act of succession
@@megwyn1611 I think she left it up in the air , but as far as the Greys go, the sisters died before E did, and with K’s boys being officially illegit, they didn’t count either. Looks like Margaret Stanley was next, but she died, too. The next potential claimant, Anne, just didn’t pursue it. Considering what Wiki says about her life, id say she had enough to deal with.
Mary Grey didnt take notice of what happened to her sister by marrying without the Queen's permission.
Perhaps they were haunted by the spector of Queen Mary. Prevented from marrying for many years because her claim made any marriage (or heirs) of hers a threat to the established order. She wound up in an unhappy and short-lived marriage, was not able to have children, and died young.
I could definitely see the two Grey girls fearing to get caught in that same cycle. Being aging maidens as Elizabeth replays her father's role in the matter; certainly her jealousy and paranoia seems to have been sufficient to make her never approving a marriage for either of them seem plausible.
Perhaps they strategized that it was a better idea to ask for forgiveness for a secret marriage, than to be explicitly told "no" and then go against that. Imagining that once they were married, and ideally pregnant, there would be no going back, and eventually the Queen's anger would fade. They underestimated how far she'd be willing to go (i.e. annulling a clearly valid marriage on a technicality in order to delegitimize a child). Their odd choices may have been attempts to pick husbands that Elizabeth would not find particularly threatening, or even just men who were willing to risk her ire, whom they could contact without intermediaries.
Honestly, the fact that they both attempted the same hare-brained approach at around the same time? That reads to me as "two teenagers/young adults without much sense between them cook up what they think of as a failsafe plan to get what they want", rather than a conspiracy. Surely if someone with any actual political acumen had been in charge, at the very least they would have tried it out with one girl only, and kept the other one back as a reserve if it backfired.
Given the fate of their father's political scheming, they probably didn't have any particularly good role models for how to navigate the dangerous waters they found themselves in by virtue of their birth.
I like to imagine that someone (Walshingham?) had (probably forged) documents confirming the legitimacy Katherine's marriage. The option to make Katherine's son Elizabeth's heir (should no other more suitable heir become available) just seems too useful to ignore.
Was it just me, or did Any One Else have problems w/ the Audio?? It sounded kind of Odd,
Oh what wicked wend we weave
The outrage at the secret marriages makes so much more sense now, a lot of places skip over the royal status but clearly being cousins of Queen Elizabeth was extremely dangerous precisely because of being a relative, so making them and their children heirs to the throne even if indirectly