Sisters of the Queen?: Katherine and Mary Grey
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- Опубликовано: 29 сен 2024
- This topic has been requested a few times over the last year - we’re looking at the sisters of Jane Grey - Katherine and Mary…
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Intro / Outro song: Silent Partner, "Greenery" [ • Greenery - Silent Part... ]
SFX from freesfx.co.uk/...
Linked videos and playlists:
Charles Brandon: • Charles Brandon: How t...
Mary Tudor: • Mary Tudor: Sister of ...
Jane Grey: • Dr Kat and Lady/Queen ...
Mary I: • Dr Kat and "Bloody Mary"?
Elizabeth I: • Dr Kat and The Virgin ...
Bess of Hardwick: • Dr Kat and Bess of Har...
Images (from Wikimedia Commons, unless otherwise stated):
Portrait of Edward VI of England, seated, wearing a gown lined in ermine (or lynx?!) over a crimson doublet with the collar of the Order of the Garter and holding a Bible, from the circle of William Scrots (c.1550). Held in an unknown collection.
Edward VI's "devise for the succession" c.1553, written in his own hand. (Inner Temple, Petyt MS 538, vol. 47 fo. 317.)
Original letter of Lady Jane Grey, signed by her as `Quene’. July 1553. Image copyright © The Inner Temple Library.
Portrait of Queen Mary I by Antonis Mor (1554). Held by the Museo del Prado.
Portrait of Queen Elizabeth I by an unknown English artist (c.1600). Held by the National Portrait Gallery.
Photograph of the marble tomb of Frances Brandon, Duchess of Suffolk in Westminster Abbey, St. Edmunds Chapel, taken by Feuerrabe (2011).
Miniature portrait of Lady Katherine Grey by Levina Teerlinc (c.1555-1560). Held by the Victoria and Albert Museum.
Portrait of Edward Seymour, Earl of Hertford attributed to Hans Eworth (1565). Held in an unspecified private collection.
Miniature portrait of Lady Katherine Grey and her son Edward Seymour, Lord Beauchamp of Hache (c.1562). Held in an unidentified collection.
Portrait of Lady Mary Grey attributed to Hans Eworth (1571). Held at Chequers.
#History #Treason #SecretMarriage
I can't help but think of all the grasping men who were using these women for their own power. Marriage was a dangerous game when one was a relative of the monarch. Poor girls.
And marriage was the only job a woman could get back in those days (well I guess they could be a cook or a wet nurse ... but I don't think those paid real well).
Women of a certain class could engage in trades such as picking, carding, spinning, dyeing, weaving, embroidery, and sewing. While these avenues of employment were not open to women of the nobility, skilled female artisans were critical to the economies of affluent households. Women experienced in the production of textiles provided all of the rugs, linens, and clothing fabrics used in any household.
Just to the two comments down below, think again - noble born woman at that time doing a job? Lol. They used to have two options before marriage along with motherhood and then nunnery, the latter of which was removed I figure with the change of the church. So yea - girls were literally taught to think from since they were kids that what they were supposed to do was to get married and have kids - and as there was no viable option for anything else being of their status (not that the changes for commoner would have been much greater given how property often belonged more to males of the house) - what else they even knew to do? I figure they just did not know any other way to get what they had been taught they would have to do.
Marriage was dangerous for every woman as so many died in childbirth.
Tudor stories are always so wild. Everyone is Mary, Elizabeth, Jane, Thomas, or Edward. It's almost impossible to keep them straight hahaha
What about all the Henry and Edward kings during the wars of the roses? I can never keep them straight in my head!
Henry wed three Catherines, two Annes and a Jane. Dynasties choose dynastic names. The British royal family are still at it. Princess Anne is the only one of them who chose different names. Zara and Peter. She never had any ambitions of setting them on any throne or marking them as royal in such an overt way. Andrew's daughters are named after two of Queen Vicky's - Beatrice and Eugenie.
@@earthalydelights - I think Princess Anne knew that her kids would be wayyyy down in the order of succession and so she named them whatever she liked, knowing they'd never be the monarch.
It was a wild century. The world was still emerging from the Medieval era and transitioning to the early modern. The Tudors were caught smack in the middle of all that mess.
All these monarchies keep using the same names over and over glad I never took European history I'd need cards for each dynasty house era and number of Henry's George's Anne's at least Spain and England only had 2 queens each with the same name.
I love listening to Dr Kat in the evening. Quiet yet interesting information that helps me wind down from my day.
Very interesting. History never talks about the secondary actors, whose lives are also important and for us, informative. I really think with power comes paranoia. And Elizabeth had many fears, so her actions towards the remaining Grey sister are logicall to me. As for the sisters, they were not very bright in court affairs, or they would had beeen more prudent. Thank you for your always great posts.
They were trapped by the customs of their time. Women who had sex HAD to be married. Birth control was not advanced, so having sex without having a child was not easy. They were young women who wanted what any person wants, a stable loving relationship.
Due to Edward's actions and the actions of their father, they were in a position to be a threat to the throne. I'm sorry for them, their choices were limited.
Hindsight is always 20/20, isn’t it? In this case, the past is so very distant that all the facts are impossible to know
There WERE plots against Elizabeth. From day 1. It's not paranoia if people really are after you. AND if everything were on the up and up, why not just ask for permission? Whether the Grey sisters were culpable or not, the people (men) around them almost certainly had ulterior motives that involved ambition. So Elizabeth's responses seem very logical. In fact, the only (potentially) illogical move was not just killing both sisters early on.
Seems like they married for security but they must have realized what they were doing was very risky, given their positions. Wonder what happened to Catherine's two boys.
I suspect they wanted a baby...and were willing to risk much to get a child
Her eldest son had heirs and King Charles is descended from him through his maternal grandmother.
Thank you!!!! As always, your discussion is inciteful, informative, and entertaining. I have been a Tudor history fan for eons, and thoroughly enjoy all of your videos. Have you ever provided a list of the books shown behind you? One can always learn more....there is always the book or the expert out there that has uncovered something new. Take care.
Another interesting video. You never disappoint. Always happy to see when RUclips alerts me that you have uploaded another video.
Fascinating and I love your commentary. Brilliant and sad story. We focus on Jane and I personally hadn't considered any siblings. I didn't realise they were descendants from Henry's sister Mary.
Mary Elizabeth named 1960. They're still doing it
Mary Grey didnt take notice of what happened to her sister by marrying without the Queen's permission.
Seems like the women descended from Henry VII were forces to be reckoned with.
@Harriet Younger Imagine if she was never killed by Mary the 1 and she looked after herself and made sure that she was healthy and she had kids with Gifford and she was alive in 1603 then she would have been queen how do you think she would have ruled England what do you think would have happened
@@raumaanking raising armies, secret marriages, high stakes gambles with their lives and persistent bloodlines to mention a few qualities they seem to have shared. I think it would have been a Gangstar female on the the thrown either way which is the irony of all the effort to find kings.
@@harrietyounger6118 what do you mean by gangster female so you don’t think it would be good if lady Jane Grey was queen in 1603
@@raumaanking history is written by the victorious so very hard to know. In theory I don't think she would have been a bad Queen.
@@harrietyounger6118 oh right I think my opinion is she would make the country peaceful and if she was alive in 1603 she might have ruled for like 3-4 years of England and I think she would have ended the country with no war but I think the men would have used her as a pawn example with the gun powder plot I think because Guy Fawkes was a Protestant at some point in his life I think she could have had him only executed or kept him locked up or something like that but the men around her would have used her to make his life a misery in my opinion don’t you think thanks for telling me your opinion
Lady Jane Grey was a usurper not a Queen 😂😂
She was the choice of the previous king. Why should Henry VIII’s choices have precedence?
@@warrengwonka2479 Edward's? Lmao the boy King who had been manipulated all her life and was in his deathbed ,recorded to have a heavy usage of opioids for pains for the past 1,5 years. Signing a paper stealing the rights of the woman he regarded as a mother and a source of unconditional love?? Yeah sure sure IT WAS EDWARD'S DECISION AND NOT THE GREY FAMILY AND THE FAMILY WHO HAD MARRIED THEIR SON TO THE PERSON THEY PLOTTED TO CROWN, WHO WERE IN POLITICAL POWER TO ARRANGE THE KING TO SIGN ANYTHING THEY WANTED. Seems legit right? 😂😂😂 Honestly tho, thanks for the morning laugh
After the treatment Elizabeth I got from her father and her sister Mary I, I wonder if Elizabeth could have been diagnosed as being afflicted with PTSD?
Knowing that permission was required, who is conducting the marriages??
On one hand, one might say the Sisters Grey were remarkably silly in their life choices. On the other hand, one can see that the uncertainty in which they lived may have spurred them to grab what satisfaction they could as quickly as possible.
I find it so horrible that you couldn't marry for love that you had to marry someone that you was told to even if they were your first cousin. Even after that you had to get the Queen or Kings permission and even worse 13 year old girls were forced to marry.
I'm curious if Katherine's sons (from her alleged non-marriage) managed to survive and reproduce. Is there a scion of the Grey family still kicking about?
Yes, King Charles! His maternal grandmother was descended from Katherine Grey.
Such sad stories. I think Katherines marriage was a love match. 2 young people of similar status who came together and couldn’t stay apart. Reckless and lacking parental guidance I think she was looking for stability and a life of her own.
Wikipedia says Thomas, K’s younger boy, lived into his 40s and had married, but they had no kids. Edward, the elder, lived to 50, married, had a bunch of kids. E2 is his descendent
Honestly, those boys were probably better off being classified as illegit
Thank you for the information on the sons, I wondered about their fate.
Thank you! I was wondering what happened to them.
I bet Mary married for love, or at least infatuation. If she'd been marrying for dynastic reasons, she wouldn't have married someone so far beneath her socially. My theory is that he realized she had a crush on him and played up to her, thinking to marry well and maybe get position and money.
Katherine I can see as being more marrying out of love or desperation. It was considered a woman's highest duty and fulfillment in that time to marry and have children, and Elizabeth wasn't going to let her do that openly, since it could produce an heir to her throne, so she did it secretly. Maybe she thought once it was a done deal, Elizabeth would take pity on her, especially if she were already pregnant. Not the best plan, really.
I read a book several years ago called "The Sisters Who Would be Queen" by Leanda de Lisle about the Grey sisters. It was excellent. I recommend it. Particularly after Jane's example, I don't think either one wanted to be queen. I think they wanted to marry, raise children and disappear into the background.
Where unsanctioned marriages were concerned, Elizabeth I never came out looking too good. In that, she was too much like her father. She wanted ALL the attention to be on her, and she was paranoid about the stability of her throne, perhaps with some cause. An unsanctioned marriage was like gasoline on the fire of her insecurities.
It's a sad story, all the way around.
I suspect Elizabeth's actions were more complicated than that. Her right to the throne was questioned for a lot of her reign. Although the Catholic forces would turn to Mary Queen of Scots as the legitimate heir, Henry's will made Mary and Katherine legitimate heirs to the throne if Elizabeth fell and the Protestant faction needed someone to rally around. Marrying without Elizabeth's permission left open the possibility that Katherine and Mary's husbands would suddenly decide to push the idea that Elizabeth wasn't legitimate, but Mary and/or Katherine WERE and any legitimate male children they had were the heirs to the English throne. Elizabeth was driven by more than a desire to be the center of attention. She was also driven by the knowledge that her position could be undermined. I feel for everyone in the situation. Henry left quite a mess for his heirs. Only Edward living a long life would have solved the dilemma.
Once again, you’ve made my week! For us, it is inconceivable to imagine how all of these people lived their lives without going mad. A sister and a father beheaded here, an entire family beheaded there…..what a ghastly existence.
I often think of the same thing!! How do people/families move on from that amount of severe trauma??
Thank you for another interesting episode. Since I have noticed you seem to have an interest in royals, the Tudor era and female pirates, may I suggest looking in to the Swedish Princess Cecilia Gustavsdotter Vasa. She spent some time at Elizabeth's Court and was quite an interesting character. 😁
Ever heard of her. Thank you, I’ll look her up 🇦🇺🇦🇺🇦🇺
Poor Grey sisters. Doesn't seem like they had a lot of common sense, does it?
@Sharon Smith Imagine if lady Jane Grey was never killed and she looked after herself and had kids with Gifford and if she was still alive in 1603 how do you think England would have been if she ruled England in 1603
@@raumaanking The history of Scottland and the existence of the UK (if it happened) would certainly be different.
I think that I am bloody glad that I didn’t live back then. I would probably be in the tower.....😊🇨🇦🐉
It was safer to be a commoner.
I think we all would haha
@@Nightbird1914a member of gentry/countryman was better.
During the reign of Mary Tudor, Frances and her daughters were given higher rank than Elizabeth and displayed open contempt for her. They seemed to (foolishly) believe Katherine would be named Mary's heir.
Elizabeth did not forget or forgive this treatment. Katherine and Mary were very foolish.
I read Leanda de Lisle's book about the Grey sisters some years ago , The Sisters Who Would Be Queen, and when I see a reference to Chequers I sometimes think of poor Mary Grey. One woman with Grey blood who managed to stay on good terms with Elizabeth I (most of the time) was Elizabeth FitzGerald, the 'Fair Geraldine'. Maybe a good subject for Dr Kat?
I like that suggestion, too.
Yesss!!!!!
I think the more I learn about Elizabeth the scarier she becomes lol.
I'm so glad you shared about these women. We're underrepresented as it is and I love hearing stories about the "tapestry" that made up the courts..not just the monarchs. ❤ much love, Dr Kat. Thanks for all you do.
I don’t think either one of them had ANY aspirations of following in their sister’s footsteps. I think they wanted to marry and have families, and live their lives in relative luxury.
I love listening and learning about the past, much more interesting than the Kardashians.
This was a very interesting episode, I have learned tons! Particularly, how little thought I had given to the people surrounding Jane Grey. Thanks!
Could you do a video on Sybille of cleves? I’ve only found one on RUclips and it’s not very good
What happened to the two boys? 🤔
If you’re trying to get on the right side of Elizabeth I, why would you call your Seymour child, Thomas?
Fascinating. I'll always be impressed by Elizabeth I's education and diplomatic abilities, but I think there can only be so much behavior justified by her situation. Love your work Dr.Kat!!
Can you make a video about their cousin Margaret? The daughter of Elenor, Frances’ little sister?
I love this I tried to find out about them through Wikipedia but was just not enough thank you so much
They certainly didn’t learn from experience did they. It’s such a shame Jane was used as she was by her ambitious family. Having lost her head you would think her sisters would be more prudent. It sounds like Katherine married for love as they went on to have another son. I tend towards ambition on the part of Mary’s husband as others have suggested. Why take such risks though? Did they have succession ambitions? Hard to tell somehow I doubt it.
Thank you Dr Kat from us in Sydney, to be "locked in a ring of steel" as we seem to have given all Australia Covid Delta. It is so reassuring to hear you tell of hard times that did resolve.
I'm from Adelaide and we are in lockdown till Wednesday. I truly hope it all goes well and there aren't anymore cases. 🤞
Stay safe ❤
Sadly it seems a few pushing their rights before responsibilities ruin it for the majority. Stay safe Michelle. I am another from Adelaide, keeping safe. Thank you Dr Kat for a very interesting video. Each video reminds me to be grateful I am alive here & now & not centuries ago. Keep safe.
Hi from locked down south Australia 🙋♀️🥶🌧🌧🇦🇺🇦🇺
@@gonefishing167 crazy weather!!!
I’m country south Australia. It’s bucketing down with rain with thunder and lightening. The dog and cat do not appreciate it. 🙋♀️🇦🇺🇦🇺🇦🇺
The apple doesn't fall far from the tree. The Grey sisters may have simply been following the example of their maternal Grandmother Mary Tudor.
Good point -- I hadn't thought of that. Plus, their mother Frances Brandon married a second time -- to a much younger man, Adrian Stokes. So the example of marrying for love was entrenched in the Tudor/Suffolk families.
I don't think they conspired for the throne. The choice of husbands is unadequated for this. Most probably they were lonelly and believed that some sort of marriage would fix their lives. What happened to the Katherine's boys? They survived?
Yes I know Edward was later made the 2nd duke of somerset
No sorry his son was made the 2nd duke
If Henry the viii will is upheld to include his 3 legitimate children, why wasn't Edward VI's
This has long puzzled me
🤔 Confused
Gosh - Henry VII's descendants could write the book on poor marriage choices! None of their family had much luck with spouses. No wonder Queen Elizabeth I thought it safer to remain unmarried!
FYI, The sound seems abit echo or different sound quality at the intro.
I always thought there should be more research on the sisters of Lady Jane Grey - fascinating as always, Kat!
Great video. Just an FYI though - the audio seems a bit echo-y, like the difference between a room mic vs a personal mic.
I think they married to have some stability to their lives. Women didn't have many other means of surviving. Mary maybe chose her gentleman hoping that his lower station would be less of a threat to Elizabeth.
So much pressure. To comply, to maintain secrets, and to keep yourself safe.
Folly to act secretly on any matter.
Death was common when betrayal or intention to usurp was suspected.
Thank you for this video. I didn’t know much about Mary and Katherine Gray. I wonder if their marriages were a way of rebelling and asserting some control over their lives.
This is so interesting Dr Kat, in particular the mention of Elizabeth St Loe. Katherine no doubt confided in her as Elizabeth had been in service to the Grey family and helped raise all three Grey girls, she would have trusted this old family friend and hoped she would be an ally. .
Would you consider doing a video on this amazing Elizabethan woman, otherwise known more widely as Bess of Hardwick? How did Bess manage to keep her head and her position through constantly changing and dangerous times?
ruclips.net/video/YvYCnP32sV4/видео.html
I think this story illustrates what a cruel, vindictive woman Elizabeth 1st was. Separating a wife from her husband, a mother and father from their children, and then repeating the same with poor Mary Grey and her husband.
You never fail with your research and narration. As well as a lovely speaking voice, your skin is beautiful and compliments your raven wings hair.
I feel it was trying to get some sort of control over their lives . I must admit my estimation of Elizabeth has reduced xxx
Elizabeth lived their lives while Mary was queen and saw how just her existence could foment rebellion. She understood the potential danger of there being someone who was next that unhappy people could look to and fight for. And she lived through her father’s desire for a son. If the Grey sisters married and had a legitimate son, the threat that potential boy represented to her crown would have been huge. I don’t like Elizabeth’s actions but I get them.
Another great video, Dr. Kat. I really like hearing the stories of the lesser known players in history, they are just as important as the famous/infamous characters. See you next week!
Thank you Dr. Kat! I would love if you did a video on Anne Boleyn’s 2 Aunts that were governesses for Elizabeth and Mary. One Aunt I know was Alice Boleyn Clere, but I can’t find more information about her. I’m interested because she is a great grandmother of mine. I read that the “Other Boleyn” Aunt, Lady Anne Shelton was cruel to Princess (Lady) Mary. Would they have taught Elizabeth about her mother?
Elizabeth I, was a dominating cruel queen in many ways, also paranoid.
In the case of Catherine I believe she was encouraged to marry and produce an heir by men of power (Dudley?) the fact that she was able to get pregnant while imprisoned in the tower means that people in high places were sympathetic to the marriage Her boys were declared illegitimate, but if need be could be legitimized. In fact both of her son's were recognized by their father and the eldest son's descendants carried on with the earldom. Under Henry Viii will her son Edward should have been King after Elizabeth. But it was ignored and it went to James of Scotland descendant of Margaret, Henry's older sister.
I think they made some very poor choices. Not sure their motivation, but it was not meant to be...
Mary Grey's marriage seems a classic fatherless child marrying an older man (replacement father). It seems clear the husband hoped to gain in a marriage so close to the throne, because he wanted out as soon as they were in trouble. Katherine's choices seems more vague. I think there were those who pushed/hinted her into marriage and positions toward the throne. I think what happened to their sister, Jane, was enough to encourage all to play a waiting game. I think many thought Elizabeth never would marry (but would never speak of it). Grooming Katherine would seem the best choice. It may even have been Katherine's idea/plan. She may have thought a secret marriage would help. It could also be as simple as the example of Queen Mary. She didn't want to be "too old" by the time she may have become queen. Getting forgiveness after the fact, especially with a child already conceived, may have seemed a good option at the time.
Interesting take on it, and I think you may have hit on something. It certainly seems a logical, if very risky move on Katherine's part. Really I don't understand why Elizabeth didn't buy into it.
As an alleged 'Protestant' Queen, Katherine made a much better option from Elizabeth's angle than Mary Stuart, who Did have her eyes on Liz's throne, and was a Catholic.
By simply accepting Katherine and her kids, she was securing a Protestant dynasty which also went straight back to her own grandfather and founder of the Tudors.
Whilst Mary did have a more than credible claim, she was a Catholic and a proven loose cannon.
Sometimes I think Elizabeth was just a frustrated old spinster, and confused by marriage. With her family history who can blame her?
But her vindictive treatment of people who Did marry, without Her consent and then had the temerity to produce offspring is mean spirited and hints at jealousy. Dog in a manger. She couldn't/wouldn't marry herself, but she was envious when those close to her did. There is also a hint of that famous Tudor narcissism.. How Dare those around her prefer someone else to Her? Didn't they know their world should revolve around Her?
@@hogwashmcturnip8930Eh... while her treatment of male favorites getting married may have been jealousy, the ladies of her chamber are a different case. Their constant presence affirmed her chastity, her moral rectitude, and her right to rule. If they themselves were sneaking around contracting secret marriages and getting pregnant, it cast doubt on all of that. It makes sense she would have been pissed.
@@Eloraurora nah, it was because Liz was a narcissistic control freak who was afraid of dying. She would not countenance the idea of an heir, which is why she very nearly screwed it all up. I do get your point though.
I think people forget that Liz was probably quite damaged. She had seen 6 wives, 2, including her own mother, judicially murdered, watched what happened to women who didn't deliver the goods from between their legs, watched her half brother be manipulated and her half sister nearly give the country away to Spain. She had quite possibly been molested as a teenager and had very nearly been executed herself. I think she is allowed a little paranoia. Not good for the country though!
I'm guessing that both Grey sisters wanted love. Little attention was probably paid to them by their politically ambitious father. Also, as role models, they had their grandmother, Mary Tudor, the "French Queen," who had defied the monarch (her brother, Henry VIII) to marry for love, and their mother, Frances, who had married for love soon after her first husband's execution. It seems to be the family way.
I’m sure there was thoughts in the outer edges of the court were whispering in Mary and janes ears!
100% the men were behind the marriages because they knew it could potentially give them a king of a child. As cruel as the queens actions sound in that day and age everyone was out for them selves and would have gone against her in a heart beat if it meant they would have the thrown
The Grey sisters must have felt cornered, with few options.
Had I been in the Grey girls' place, I would have FLUNG MYSELF into the nearest CONVENT, regardless of my religious preferences.
NOT A SAFE BLOODLINE TO BELONG TO.
Poor Elizabeth- she had to guard her throne from Mary of Scott, Mary & Katherine Grey, The Spanish armada, The Jacobins, i mean- seriously- is power that addicting Lizzy?
The Grey girls (all three), like so many titled women and girls, were the hapless victims of their birth and their station. Rarely could they marry for love. More often betrothed to one or another hapless boy or young man… or much older man, or even a succession of them as the various families’ stars rose and fell or when a better placed alternative came along.
Scheming parents or guardians put their offsprings lives on the line to position themselves in a better connection to power. And, often, it wasn’t the parent that ended up in the crosshairs of a ticked-off monarch. It was the children.
Arbella Stuart suffered much the same fate as Mary Grey, in the Tower where she died at 39, having probably starved herself to death after marrying in secret and then trying to escape England.
Poor Jane, she was a puppet for politicians. I would like to learn more about what was happening in Ireland in the Tudor times. I am Irish and would love to learn more.
Same. The Tudors didn't have a high opinion of Ireland. They saw it as a wild land full of unruly savages.
Elizabeth 1st was harsh on the Irish, a Catholic country. She wanted to turn Ireland Protestant but didn't get her way. We are a stubborn resilient bunch
@@Shane-Flanagan it's so hard to research but I know that a lot went on in Ireland at that time, but its very hard to track down event. Sorry for the bummer.. Ireland had it very hard time for 800 years and some events were glazed over... the great famine (genocide). History is written my the winner
I honestly wonder if Mary Grey's choice wasn't influenced by her husband's lower station; i.e., "See, I've made a politically terrible marriage, I have no interest in the throne, I just want to go off and be this random dude's wife and live a chill, unremarkable life."
In Helen Castor's England's Forgotten Queen, she states that Lady Jane Grey didn't want to marry Guilford. Not sure this is the correct space to ask, but I wanted to research Dr. Kat's videos to see if they mentioned any reasons why. Were they of equal rank?
Hi,
I think a woman's value was her (father's or brother's) ability to marry her off to a man of property, money or (and ) a close relative to the King or Queen. Women were just pawns. Actually, really pitiful when you think about it. For example , Why didn't Queen Elizabeth marry? Was it because she saw how her father dealt with women he no longer wanted or needed? Why would she marry a man and raise him up to be (Prince Consort) that could one day cut off her head? She also knew, women died in childbirth all the time and she wanted to be a ruler and a mother of her country not babies. There were no advantages for Elizabeth to marry.Remember Elizabeth had to be a smart girl to keep her head during Henry VIII's rule and I think she was swell.
To me this looks like two wemon in quite unfavourable conditions trying, one of probably very few ways of having some autonomous choice in their highly surveiled lives. Tbh... it's super sad. Still I do get Elisabeth being pissed at secret marriages by that point 😅
Tragic sistes of calculating parents
Hi Doctor Kat!
I think that the sister’s wanted a real life within the limits allowed. Getting Elizabeth’s permission for a marriage which was the main way they could influence their own future was always doubtful. The Tudor’s constant fear of being pushed out of power influenced everyone’s daily life and the fools that thought they were going to outmaneuver Elizabeth mostly ended badly.
Perhaps they were haunted by the spector of Queen Mary. Prevented from marrying for many years because her claim made any marriage (or heirs) of hers a threat to the established order. She wound up in an unhappy and short-lived marriage, was not able to have children, and died young.
I could definitely see the two Grey girls fearing to get caught in that same cycle. Being aging maidens as Elizabeth replays her father's role in the matter; certainly her jealousy and paranoia seems to have been sufficient to make her never approving a marriage for either of them seem plausible.
Perhaps they strategized that it was a better idea to ask for forgiveness for a secret marriage, than to be explicitly told "no" and then go against that. Imagining that once they were married, and ideally pregnant, there would be no going back, and eventually the Queen's anger would fade. They underestimated how far she'd be willing to go (i.e. annulling a clearly valid marriage on a technicality in order to delegitimize a child). Their odd choices may have been attempts to pick husbands that Elizabeth would not find particularly threatening, or even just men who were willing to risk her ire, whom they could contact without intermediaries.
Honestly, the fact that they both attempted the same hare-brained approach at around the same time? That reads to me as "two teenagers/young adults without much sense between them cook up what they think of as a failsafe plan to get what they want", rather than a conspiracy. Surely if someone with any actual political acumen had been in charge, at the very least they would have tried it out with one girl only, and kept the other one back as a reserve if it backfired.
Given the fate of their father's political scheming, they probably didn't have any particularly good role models for how to navigate the dangerous waters they found themselves in by virtue of their birth.
I feel they just married for love. Married to control their own destiny. I don't feel they had any malice against Queen Elizabeth I. But given their bloodline, they should have asked the consent of her majesty.
The elder who apparently was beautiful , was schemy and tried ti usurp the tirones after her mother death. Unfortunately for her too Quick and wasnt the best bachelor for her. A Prince from Spain-Germany, France or Scotland or at least a more older high rank noble was much more better for her.
The other was ugly probably dumb and married the first that make her a serious proposal. She only wants to be tall and a kind of handsome. She also didn’t want to stay old and single her whole life.
I would contend that, as being a wife, bearing children, and running a household were the goals of the education that women received at the time, these women simply wanted to live out a normal life. If the Queen would not allow them to wed, over time resentment built and care was left to the wind, much to their own folly. For a short period of time, though, they had their family.
I worked under a manager who would push back at any idea that wasn't her own. Instead of pushing back at they suggesting, she would take it out on the person from whom she thought the suggestion was made. They who were pushing Elizabeth to accept the women as her heirs made the sitation that much more tenuous with this fearful and jealous monarch. It could be that they pushed, knowing what the result would be and were instead really backing another within the line of possible succession. So very many games in court, it is hard to tell ...
I think Katherine may have married for love since she and her husband continued to see each other have marital relations in the tower. I’m not sure about Mary, I don’t know if she was a schemer or just incredibly stupid after having both of her sisters as cautionary examples, plus with her husband seeking to annul the marriage I wonder if it had been a marriage of convenience or of love for her. It’s hard to know why Mary at least wouldn’t have asked for approval especially with her husband being of such a loser rank, which would’ve weakened any of their children’s claims to the throne and be seen as potentially less of a threat.
There maybe no rest for the wicked in modern days but during the Elizabethan Age no rest for the minor royals!
Fascinating. I never knew this story before. Just reading a book about Katherine and Mary by Leanda de Lisle
If I'm not mistaken, Mary made certain that there were witnesses to her marriage so it couldn't be denied like her sister's.
It's just tragic for each of the Grey sisters living under the rule of Elizabeth. Even if they wanted to marry for love or have some control over their lives and fate seems impossible given the times and the requirement to gain the queen's permission to marry.
Katherine I think loved her husband as she had two children with him. I think Elizabeth after being treated as she was by her father, once she had the marriage declared not valid she should have let them live there lives together instead she left two children without their mother. That seems pretty ruthless to me.
Was it just me, or did Any One Else have problems w/ the Audio?? It sounded kind of Odd,
Anyone looking to anger Good Queen Bess just go get married in secret that’ll spoil a mood quicker then not having your morning cup of earl grey
I can't help but think that marriage shows such a lowborn husband in an attempt to show that while she wished to marry she did not wish to make any play at the throne. And I think that is what shows in the difference between their treatment. Catherine made a Highborn marriage that would be if not perfectly acceptable much nearer to acceptable.
The tall and handsome but lowborn man Mary took interest in betrayed her so quickly that she had no reason to love or speak after him again. Clearly her pregnancy did not go well or the baby died relatively soon after birth. With the secret marriage annulled Mary was short ugly and not much of a threat. Failure to carry a baby to term was pretty much a death nail in a Tudor era woman's resume.
Sadly both ladies it appears to have obviously been taken advantage of by opportunistic males … 😢
I think it's terrible that the sisters were not allowed to marry. Elizabeth was a great Queen but a very selfish person not to allow them marriage & children.
What happened to Catherine’s boys? Did they die in prison also?
Thank you. I knew nothing of these 2 ladies prior to your video.
Have you ever done any on the Grey side of the family?
That could be a fun watch.
I feel bad for anyone born into royality back then. Either you got your head cut off or you were constantly under suspecion or you never had a life. Then the men in your life used you as a pawn to further their power and money. They owned you.
It seems to me Queen Elizabeth had a mean streak, just like her Dad Henry the VII. Hmmmm
Not mean, pragmatic
Henry VIII
Im obsessed with your channel. Such sad stories! 🥹
Another tale of misery.
Why do you sound so faint? And tin-like. LOVE these videos
This poor women. Being born with royal blood was a curse.
Always enjoy watching your stories, and then reading up on what you leave out. BTW, even though I've been raised in the U.S., I smoked the history portion of the citizenship test. Of course, having been born in Ipswich, I'm already a citizen.
Just awful! Will never understand English law.