The Secret Reason PRO's Add Weight to the Handle
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- Опубликовано: 14 май 2024
- In this video we discuss why pro's add weight to the handle of their tennis racquet's by uncovering a topic called "recoil weight."
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Inertia is a body’s resistance to change in speed. Inertia it's related to Momentum. Linear Momentum is the product of an object’s mass and velocity. Get into an example to easierr understanding: If you are in a car with "M" mass and "V" velocity, then the momentum is M x V. If you are in a truck wichc has the double of the mass "2M" and it's going at the same velocity then the momentum is twice the momentum of the car at the same velocity: 2M x V = 2 x (M x V). If another similar truck is going half the velocity then the Momentum is the same to the car. Get back to tenis, if you add weight, perhaps 10%, then if you want to get more momentum then you need to get a similar racquet speed after adding weight, if you go 10% speed lower then you get no change in Momentum. But feel will change and you will prefer that new racquet setup. When we accelerate our racquet there we need to consider another element to get an accurate model. In rotational motion we need to consider the distance of the weight from and axis. Then the equation of Angular Momentum is: I x W where I is Moment of Inertia and W is angular speed. Things start to get more complex, but I will try to pursuit the intuitive way. If we a 0 grams stick with a weight at one end and we pick that stick on the other end, the Moment of inertia is the length of the stick, squared multiplied by the mass of the weight at the end. Note that if we increases 10% the lenght of the stick, the Moment of inertia increases 21% (it's a quadratic relation). When hitting we have several axis, wrist, elbow, shoulder and hip. But consider only the wrist to understand the concept. If we already have our extreme lightweight stick with a weight at the end and we add weight under the grip then then the Moment of inertia don't increase, because the distance to the axis is zero in this case. But if we consider the shoulder as the axis it adds Moment. Adding weight near the end of the tip of the racquet increases all the moment of inertia and remember it works with the square of the distance, because of that we need only a few grams to feel the difference in the arm. As we see in the Linear Momentum, is we increase mass but decrease speed, then we don't get much diference, we get a similar effect is we increase the Moment of inertia, adding weight to the racquet but decreasing the angular speed (swing speed). At this point what is crucial is the ability of the player to accelerate a heavier racquet. What could you throw further? a Grain of salt, a salt shaker or a bag with 20kg of salt? This is the intuitive path (I hope that it works for you) that we follow analizing the physics of the swing.
Thank for for the detailed breakdown. I've pinned the comment in hopes that it helps future viewers.
.. a change in velocity - speed is merely a quantity - velocity is a vector - inertia is always directional.
Great !!
I’m a nerd for all these technical stuff, keep them coming!
That's a big YES from me regarding tennis physics! Nerd out, sir!
Love this explanation. I have found extra weight so beneficial. Adding more to base helped me loads.
Today I added the leather grip to my racket which made it a tad heavier, and as I practiced with it I definitely noticed that extra stability, especially on the volleys as I felt like when I moved the racket forward to volley the head didn't get as much of that racket lag during the motion which led to easier proper contact.
Great video. Thanks
With all the problems in our lives and across the world, it's just GREAT to get into nerdy tennis stuff and switch off for a while. Thanks TennCom.
Glad you enjoyed the small break from the chaos. More to come!
One easy customization can be done for adding extra weight and stability its change grip for leather grip, usually increase 8-10grams (normally the weight its around 29 vs 19 of other grips). Leather grips helps a lot on that side.
I wrap all my sticks in leather!
@@TennCom Same… Now I am using the Wilson RF97, they came with leather grip, but anytime I buy racket without it I change it.
@@TennCom , do you then cover the leather with an over-grip? Thanks...
@@walterhayley7252 I think so... I do that, otherwise will be a nightmare.
Ya Tourna grip
You're describing Newton's Laws of Motion and Force = Mass times Acceleration.
I'm other words, you can swing something twice as heavy and it will have the same force as if you were swinging that thing twice as fast. Factor in wind resistance and surface area, and you have a good model of how you can generate more power or spin.
Hi, I have always enjoyed your videos and I am very thankful for your responsiveness when questions are asked. Do you have any idea how much weight must go on the handle in order to affect the swing weight by one point (1kg/sq cm)?
They gave me a ton more power on my serve with an easier swing. And more control I haven't tried it on my forehand backhand volley yet or return of serve
I noticed that adding weight on handle increases SW. (overgrip).
I always replace replacement grips with leather and add silicone butt cap at the edge of handle. By doing this I’m already adding over 10 grams to handle. It makes racket more HL meaning more maneuver. Also helps with stopping vibration to your wrist.
So I use the team editions of the babolat rackets and I love the swing weight but holy cow they’re unstable on volleys and returns… I use a hybrid setup as full poly is like someone stomping on your elbow after a couple hours of play but if weight in the handle helps that horrid recoil, count me in!
What do you think?
The older Prince CTS series have a thick rubber grip over the butt of the tennis racket which is tremendous for a little added weight and comfort.
thanks alot for this nice explanation. I want to understand the geometry of racket head, something like volkl head shape is bizarre!
I will look into it, but now much creditable research has been done on beam design. Weird world out there
Especially with swing weights above 330g maintaining a H/L balance of over 7 pts (324mm) is important to maintain maneuverability+head speed and for swing weights of 345g+, I would recommend 9 pts H/L (315mm) Federer spec.
the unit of sw is not grams but kg cm2. Regards
Interesting video. Was the first court shown @ UBC ? 🤔
Good spot!
Thanks for the insights.. I have a tflight that doesn't jive with my wrist or elbow.. it's the only one in my 'arsenal' that actually delivers bad vibes (pun intended) of the dozen different racquets I own.. I haven't added tungsten yet but I'm probably going to do something non-destructive to the handle but if I remember that racquet doesn't have a hatch at the bottom like others. I've added lead to handles before and then removed it but do you typically add it below the grip or on (over) the original if you're overgripping anyway? I'm always overgripping especially #2 sized, mixed on 3's. I'd rather add blue tac in the handle but I don't want to take off the butt cap.
Excellent pun hahaha.
Hey, if you add a simple overgrip, which usually 5-8 grams, do you need to balance it out with some lead tape in the hoop?
Only if you really want to maintain the balance. I always play with an overgrip so I don't bother.
When most tennis players think about swing weight they most likely are visualizing the power the racquet imparts upon the tennis ball. Recoil weight is sort of the opposite visualization - where the incoming ball affects the racquet. The best way one can understand this is the return of serve. Given a sufficiently fast serve, how much is the racquet pushed back if all you do is block the return? The general approach to picking a racquet should be to find the heaviest one you can play with that doesn't result in arm fatigue after 2 hours. Light racquets are a recipe for tennis elbow and the goal for all tennis players is to play more tennis, not to be sidelined with arm injuries. On a side note, while MGR/I is an interesting stat to notice for professionals (e.g. 21.0) it's not really something the typical rec player needs to consider because it requires professional-level technique to apply and not many rec players have that level of technique. Plus the "angular frequency" seems to only apply to the forehand stroke and serve where the kinetic chain behavior mimics a whip the most. Not so much with either the one-handed or two-handed backhand stroke.
Excellent analysis
It means that even 13 years old boy with good technique and physique and of course very good level can play with heavy racquet almost like a pro? 🤔
Added 16g in the handle of my vcore 100 bc it seemed so head heavy to me, was slightly late too often prior to adding it. It made a huge difference to the whippy feel, i know i'm not crazy on this one!
I use a leather grip. Do you think that fits in the category of adding weight to the handle or it still needs the complement with the lead tape?
Yeah usually leather added 5-10g of weight depending on the type/what you are replacing. This should be noticeable, but nuanced. My personal racquets have leather plus lead wrapped from the top of the grip down.
@@TennCom okay appreciate it! I'm gonna try some lead
Switched the the Babaolat Pure Strike VS. Love the racquet, but we I really start hammering the ball, it can feel a bit unstable any recommendations for that specific stick? Prior to watching this video I though about adding weight in the head at 3 and 9 and in the grip to balance. Now I am questioning if I should add more weight in the grip
what kind of shots are you feeling the instability?
Get an old Prince cts oversized approach racket which is the greatest racket ever produced. I have 50 rackets and that's the best
Ha! you are using tsitsipas' raquet! Nice
So very strange but after this video, i tried adding 0.75 gram of lead at 2 inches from the buttcap under the overgrip, and 1 gram of lead in total at 10 & 2, the racket is so much more stable all of a sudden through the contact, can't believe such small amounts of lead change the racket so much
Tbh the 0.75g in the handle probably isn’t making a huge difference, the the 1g in the hoop is super noticeable. Glad you’ve made some progress in your racquet setup!
Diadem Nova Tour I was thinking of adding a little bit of weight to the handle and nowhere else. It’s over 11 oz so decent weight. Any input on this? I also have Elevate Tours that sometimes feel like they need a little something but if I add too much weight to head it feels too heavy
What are you trying to achieve? The Nova Tour is already massively head light.
Another way to add momentum without changing the balance point of the racket is adding lead tape in the throat area!
Look forward to the MGRI topic vid
Tbh it might not happen. The most I've learned about it, the less useful I'm finding it. I'll probably bring it up during a customization series that I do on my next racquet, but it likely won't be a primary focus do to its extremely limited scope.
What's the right way to add weight to the handle. If its lead tape I can put it under the grip in the same way that I put grip, I mean wrapping the racket or vertical lines in the grip sides? how do you do it.
At this moment I am testing out the Yonex Vcore95 2023 and it's really good but a lot of power in comparison of the RF so I want to modify and see if I can adjust it better.
I wrap it like a grip from the throat down. I’ve seen professional customizers do it that way, and with vertical strips so I don’t think it matters that much.
@@TennCom like the one you showed in the video, right ? Do you think 5g will be enough to add extra control? 5g + leather grip.
Yeah I think 5g is a great place to start
well, improving maneuverability is not the same as increasing racket head speed. So the hamer theory still holds true for moving the racket quickly for reflex volleys.
I have 3 questions please:
Where is the best place to add weight on the handle, at the 7 inch point beyond where the hand grips the racquet or on or inside the but cap?
How do you calculate the recoil weight?
On an RDC SW measuring, what is the difference between placing the racket where the head is vertical vs horizontal? In other words, the strings facing sideways vs the strings facing the floor?
1. depends on your desired effect. Butt increases Recoil (RW) most. 7 increase RW and MGRI
2. I forget the formula off-hand, buts you can find it, along with a calculator on impacting tennis' website. I currently use a spreadsheet to calculate it
3. Strings facing the floor is called spin weight and it roughly equals swingweight + twistweight
Thank you so much for your promptness in replying to my 3 questions.. back to question 1, which area on the handle has the most effect on RW ?
Is that a stanimal style overgrip on a Vcore 95 in the background there?
Yeah but it’s because the Tourna Grip XL is too small for L4 handles, not because I’m cool with a giant 1hbh
TennCom Lol.
Hi, just got a Pure Aero VS that belonged to the pro Felipe Meligeni Alves ATP-153 and there's some silicone in the handle, not sure if that's the reason, but after some time the racket feels pretty tough to swing..... overall, it feel like the racket is super stiff and that ball feels heavy.
2 possible reasons I feel this is a decade+ hiatus and during this time I played a even coached Table Tennis, where head heavy racket is desirable. So I'm probably "hammering" the ball, since it feels natural for me to just use the racket weight to strike the ball....
Would love to have your(and guys in the comments) 2 cents on this....
Just weighed and it's about 20gr(there's metal weight in the silicone) just in the handle.
And balancing it with weights did help a bit.
Already removed everything, my wrist too f*cked up to swing it....
I have not idea... maybe just rest up and take your time returning to tennis. You are probably going to be using some different muscles that aren't quite used to being exercied.
So attacking add it to the head but receiving strong ball add it to the handle
He didn't mention. I am a distinguished mechanical engineer. If you added too much weight into handle, the center of pucussion is going lower towards handle because when you try to hit the ball intuitively you try to hit center of pucussion, which layman calls sweet spot. If you don't understand you can look up "center of pucussion" that is the no vibration point.
I bought a new Head Exteme MP light 285g
I would like to convert it to Head Extreme MP 300g
Where should I add weight to the racquet🙂
This video has step by step instructions on how to match racquets How to Match Your Tennis Racquets (Weight, Balance and Swingweight)
ruclips.net/video/oyauLoSENm8/видео.html
I am very very skeptical saw multiple video of Federer racket so much I know his match racket weights 362,5 he uses weight in top of the racket he uses leather between the strings on the bridge he uses stringelings to keep the strings in place. I never hear he uses more weight. In the handle.
Fed's racquet has a significant amount of weight added to the racquet from factory. His starting point, if you assume he actually uses the RF97, starts with a lot of weight in the handle compared to almost any other retail racquet available today.
Where do you get your information?
most of it comes the book The Physics and Technology of Tennis by Brody, Cross and Lindsey
VERY WELL DONE VIDEO AS USUAL :)) However, as someone who currently services pro rackets, i disagree. The information you receive is from internet theory about the pros and facts about physics but its certainly not the "secret reason pros" are weighting their rackets. Looking forward to more videos none the less. Love these :)
Thanks Solow! Now you know the secret reason I use clickbaity titles
does adding overgrip increase the swing weight?
not really. Its so close to the pivot point that it wont have a significant impact
Do you think that adding weight with a leader grip ( and having more inertia) making my raquet more head light too will help me with my rebel tennis elbow?
No. The leather grip does add weight, but its also so hard that I feel like it transmits more vibrations through the grip which kind of counter acts the additional stability from the greater mass. You would probably need to add at least 15g in the handle to see increase comfort, but it might not fix the TE if its caused from muscling the ball.
@@TennComi am a prime example of your statement about the more comfort one can get from adding 15g in the handle. The last 2 years i have play-tested about 28-35 racquets and more than 70% of said rqs i have tried to bring to my specs. 340-350 static w (there is zero ways to calculate swing weight where i live) and 7-9 balance points. All of these rqs have 12-18gr in the handle. Otherwise, i'd have troubles. I had never been able to put my finger on why but i always felt like the >12gr of lead tapes i put in the handle is my guardian angel guarding me from injuries
Just seeing this video for first time. Idk I think adding weight to the handle would increase racket head speed. Consider how a whip functions. The momentum created by accelerating the heavy upper section gets transferred to the tapered tip, and since momentum must be conserved, the tip must travel much faster than the handle. Increasing handle weight increases tip speed, all else being equal. Just my thoughts.
Yeah, you are right, this would be an example of MGR/i and is mostly only relevant to the forehand side where there's a double pendulum motion. It's one of the reasons many pro's, like Murray, will add weight under the grip at 7 inches.
Depends on the weight of the head.
Hello!
The number one reason why pro add weight to the handle of their racquet, is because they get a weight-less racquet to be customized to their preferences while we mere mortals get them with commercial weights included in the racquet itself when it's baked.
I mean I think that’s a bit of an over simplification but yes pro stocks are typically too light for pros as you mentioned.
@@TennCom I ment that as you don't start with the same racquet as pros do you should not necesserely add weight to your retail racquet. I have some TGT345.1 full of silicone, lead and with a leather grip that are 300g static. The retail version of it (TGK345.1) is 320g static with sinthetic grip, no silicone and no lead. Have a nice day and thanks again for your videos =)
@@arthurgiusi1901 BTW: the casual weights of retail rackets are not only at the handle. They can be all over the racket. regards
Does recoilweight affect spin?
Interesting question. I don't think there's a clear answer. My experiences with recoil weight suggests lower recoil weights are more maneuverable so its easier to hit up the back of the ball, whereas higher recoil weights lend themselves more to striking straight through the shot, but I think that can be simplified to swingweight as well.
How many grams of lead did you add on the handle?
here is exactly how i customize my racquet ruclips.net/video/cFTAryG_F_8/видео.html
👍
Is there a change to recoil weight depending on where you add it to the handle? For example, just putting weight in the butt cap or where you hold the racquet, versus distributing it all the way up the grip, versus just putting it at the top of the grip?
Concentrating the weight as low down as possible will increase RW the most, but I haven’t done much testing myself to see. May do this for a video
@@TennCom On your ET, you added a leather grip and 6g at the top, right? I know you said in your customization video your SW is 338, what is the static weight and balance of your ET with your current setup?
Yeah there’s leather and lead. I forget the exact specs but they are in a video I made called “how I customize my extreme tour”
Your wrist acts like a fulcrum (pivot point), so ideally the extra weight should be in the bottom 1.5 inch of the racket, as close to the butt cap as possible. I find that does improve the whippiness and acts more as a "counterweight". Any weight added in the handle that's higher up than your forehand grip's ring finger is on the "other side" of the fulcrum and does not make a major improvement imho. I find that the more weight you can concentrate on the bottom 1.5 inch of the racket, the better. So e.g. when adding a leather grip, you're actually distributing that extra weight across the whole handle which doesn't make it more manoeuvrable per se.
I prefer a more polarized setup. Especially because I have a 1HBH and I like to volley so a few grams extra in the butt cap feels easier for those motions.
@@TennCom Try taping a toonie on your butt cap vs. taping it around the top part of your grip. Same weight, same balance point, but you will feel a difference in manoeuvrability.
Why do you think Richard Gasquet has such a large knob at the end of his handle? Looks like Tourna Grip.
Hey Tim, great question. I've reached out to Gasquet's wife for comment on this. His doctor gave me some "client confidentiality" excuse.
@@TennCom Thank you for looking into this.
Imagine a bicycle propped up on a stand. Spin the front wheel. Now stick a wooden spoon in the spokes. The wheel stops spinning when the spoon hits the forks while caught in the spokes. Now let's remove the rubber tire and install a 50 lbs 'tire' made of lead instead of rubber. Spin that bad boy with all your might and stick your wooden spoon in the spokes now. Something is gonna break. Probably the spoon. The wheel hub is like the balance point of the racket. The top and bottom of the wheel are like the top and bottom of the racket. The spoon is the ball.
So he understands how weight in the handle gives more stability on impact with the ball up top, but doesn't understand why it would be easier to swing the racket if you add weight to the handle alone :))
And I still don't... maybe you can help me
Would adding a wad of sillicone putty in the buttcap achieve the same comfort benefits?
Yeah, any kind of weight you add in the handle will help. Doesn’t necessarily matter how it’s added (lead, puddy, leather grip, etc)
i think u misunderstood maneuverability vs racket head speed.
What am I missing?
based on what u know how much wait to add
Good question
wheres the video for MGRI?
I'll discuss it in a customization series soon!
@@TennCom yea please and thank you! Idk why there isn’t a big video on RUclips discussing it already
@@ATA-wi2lh i think because the results aren't clear cut. Like Fed and Dimitrov has similar looking forehands, but completely different MGR/i's. Its also really hard to explain because one must understand both biomechanics and physics. I can't say I have that strong of a handle on either which is why I've been sluggish about creating content on it.
Add weight by putting leather grip
I think your explanation of recoil weight in terms of inertia was tight. Re. MgR/I tuning, the more you study it, the more you realize (as Racquet Tech did) that it’s only useful for frames far heavier than those used by most everybody. You also realize that trying to explain it with the kind of clarity you exhibit in this video is practically impossible. The upshot? Stick to recoil weight. It’s calculated with the same three variables, anyway, and provides all the intel amateurs need to understand this key measure that’s long been hidden from the tennis playing public.
Thanks for analysis Brandon. I’m feeling pretty much as you predicted. MRGi is also only really applicable to the forehand side which really limits its scope.
True that,@@TennCom , especially if you have a 2HBH-- which you doubtless know as well as there being more to explore in RW. Not that you should. Your intel here stands on its own. Folks don't get how much work goes into this level of production. Nicely done.
Thanks Brandon!
I see that: I at butt = RW + MR^2... Assumed if RW reached our height preference, then I add more lead tape, which one is better: closer value RW to MR^2 or opposite?
It’s amazing that after 200 years, still nobody knows what the hell they’re talking about.
where did you get this information about the pros reasoning? did a pro tell you this? I personally think you’re not exactly right. I think the weight in the head helps with inertia and solid feeling, with increased sweet spot, and weight in the handle helps balance it and make it less head heavy. weight in head helps stabilize racket during ball strike much more than weight in handle.
Adding weight in the handle helps increase the inertia without adding SW. You are right, weight in the head works better, but it think simplifying tail weight to "it balances out the feel" is missing a large part of the story, as you are only looking at the static measurements of the racquet, not the dynamic measurements of how the racquet behaves on contact.
Josh Dobbs
I probably would have left the hammer example out of this if I were you. If you’ve ever used a hammer and held it by the metal bulk and swung it, it would go through the air faster, not as heavy a blow but fast nonetheless
That’s because you don’t have any head weight anymore. If you keep the head weight, adding additional weight to the handle isn’t going to change the fact that you have to deal with the head weight.
@@TennCom that’s why you leave it out, it doesn’t have anything to do with what you’re trying to explain
@@vhockada Perhaps I am just dense, but I don't see you point.
Most Pros add to the head!!
Makes 0 sense :). I don't see how how much the impact 'upsets' the swing is linked to RW, or moment of inertia around the CoM. Racquet swings around ur hand, so what matters is the moment of inertia around your hand, and that's the definition of SW. If u dive deeper into vibrations/racquet physics you will see that another big factor that decides the vibration is the center of percussion, which, again, is not directly linked to RW, but mass and SW. So, honestly this whole RW thing doesn't make any sense to me and I'd appreciate it if anyone here can convince me that I'm wrong.
Sometimes the best way to feel it happening on court. Try setting up a racquet to have the same SW but different RW (10 points different in RW) and see how it feels to you.
🤔😶😑🥺
your comparison with hammer is not good at all mate. simply because the point of balance on a racket is between 30 to 35cms from the butt cap. which is pretty much somewhere in the middle of the racket. a hammer has the weight all at the head. you just can't compare them. now take the handle of the hammer without the Hammer. put a lap of lead in the middle of it to mark the point of balance. and then whip it in the air to feel the balance. then put another lap of lead at the butt where you hold it in your hand and whip in the air again. you'll feel a massive difference.
I don’t understand why the change in balance point between a hammer and non-hammer change the effect on maneuverability of the added weight at the pivot point.
Imo the main argument against my thoughts on maneuverability is the double pendulum swing, meaning that the handle of the racquet is not the only pivot point. This is what I alluded to when I mentioned mgri/
@@TennCom dude after having red all the comments, you're just a hopeless stubborn dude. deal with it. you're wrong. end of story. you can ask to a physics professor and you'll get the same answer. unreal. -_-
Djokovic ads a lot in the head!!!
Adding weight to the handle absolutely increases maneuverability…
Care to explain a little more? Maybe something I’m missing
think about old fashion metronome. change the balance and see the thing go.
@@TennCom you can also do a very simple test. add about 20g to the buttcap and swing it around; then try removing it. there's a very clear difference in maneuverability.
I have done that and not noticed superior maneuverability. In fact, I usually experience a decrease in swing speed from the added weight. The difference with a metronome is that the needle extends past the point of rotation, whereas the racquet typically doesn’t extend past the base of the hand
so true John!!
Chinese dude that failed engineering school! 😱😅
Epic racist comment
@@TennCom Hardly; racial stereotyping more like. Do you not watch Stephen He?
Racist to assume I’m Chinese. Stereotyping via assuming all Asians should pass engineering is stereotyping, but assume Asians are all Chinese is racist.
@@TennCom You’re not? My apologies then.
@@jerome_morrow I am half Korean and it’s ok. I appreciate your great comments and viewership. Glad to have you here.