You should consider tagging in and out of these topics with a collaborative partner. Topics this difficult to cover will definitely take a toll on someone. Chill out for a bit, mate.
Love that pic with the men wearing nets on their heads but with exposed arms and legs. Nice job guys, you really understand the principles at play there.
Reminds me of when I worked a hazmat job. This guy ripped holes in his suit so he could get to his cell phone. Contaminated hands onto no longer clean pockets into a now contaminated phone...right to the mouth 🤦♀️
Kudos to getting the name of the prison correct!! I worked at Stateville between 1989 and 2002, and got very tired of being asked what "Statesville" was like. It was a maximum-security prison, which usually housed prisoners serving longer sentences for more serious felonies or who had caused discipline problems at lesser-security prisons. The round house was still in use when I worked there.
Hey PD, this was an incredible episode, really well paced and explained. You have really found your stride! Also its so cool to know you make your own soundtracks!!! 👍
Just as I was searching for a new Plainly Difficult video! I think these science topics are a good contrast to your usual disaster content, but either way I love a new upload! 😁 Great work! 💪🙌
Super interesting video! One note on pronunciation, the word "Quechua" (referring to the people and the language) is pronounced "KEH-chew-uh" rather than "kwey-CHEW-uh" and for any future reference, most of the time with words that come from Yucatec mayan (a language mostly found today in fragmentary surviving words and names, mostly in the Yucatan peninsula) if they include an X, it makes an "ish" sound, like the "sh" in the word "sluSH". names like Xochilt are pronounced as "sho-cheel". Keep up the good work!
99.9% of what you tried teaching everyone here, doesn't pertain to really anything in this video, BUT personally, I actually appreciate learning that. Cheers
Day started off sad, but then I remembered, it's Saturday! New Plainly! Fascinating that you ranked it that low. I'd have gone with at least a 5, probably 6. Considering all the side effects that can linger from this, it feels much more unethical than it was made out to be, regardless of the participants' past. even people I hate don't deserve to have lifelong heart issues (except child molesters, they deserve suffering). also, for a moment I forgot that the UK drives on the opposite side from the US, and the ending was very disorientating. xD;
Eh, I think a 3 is about accurate. A zero would be a totally safe, morally unambiguous test. In this case, the consent was somewhat dodgy, but they did know they were signing up to catch malaria, which was pretty well known at the time in terms of what it could do to you, and it's entirely possible the doctors actually explained more in person than what was in the signed document. They weren't told they might be testing experimental drugs that could have serious side effects, and that's the really dubious part, but still, on the scale of zero to Dachau, it's gotta be a pretty low score.
They reopened the roundhouse at Stateville Prison in 2020 for purposes of forceful quarantine. It is probably the largest such roundhouse in the country.
Whether misunderstood, misinterpreted or misrepresented, they did at least make an attempt at consent, even if it was with a somewhat captive audience...
For something similar, take a look at 'Acres of Skin,' by Allen Hornblum. It recounts how mostly black prisoners from Philadelphia were used for drug experiments, many of which were for dermatology products for companies that are well-known today. Many were scarred for life. Participation was encouraged because it gave prisoners a little spending money, which positively affected prisoner behavior. Some participated because it gave them money for commissary goods, which they could use to avoid unwanted sexual advances. Sadly, because many men were from very poor backgrounds, no one on the outside funded thier commissary, so without participation, they wouldn't have any money. The studies raise questions about race, consent, research ethics, research on prisoners - the list goes on.
Thank you for another harrowing example of the importance of full informed consent. I love your series, but I am a medical laboratory scientist with a microbiology specialization and this murdered me (despite it being an excellent episode) - the species name is pronounced fal-si-puh-rum. We had an entire unit on the Plasmodium species; they continue to be a huge problem. Nothing But Nets is an excellent charity if anyone wants to look into it ❤️
Holly shit, that video was quite triggering. I am actually Austrian and also the granddaughter of a Holocaust survivor and I've lost a huge amount of relatives in concentration camps. Some of them even fell victims to medical experiments. I honestly couldn't even finish the video, but thx for talking about it.
Thanks John. I would put Stateville around '5'. I'm assuming, and please, correct me if I'm wrong, that you are saying not all that nasty because of the times they were living in. I'm saying '5' because of the times they were living in as well. If it was done now (some would argue it still is but in a much less obvious way), then '9' would be right, specifically because they had to seek permission from the participant. That, in my opinion, almost makes things worse in Stateville because they knew that it was an easy way to manipulate the prisoners.
Hey i grew up just off the edge of the map you showed at 9:15, I know alot about the history of the area since its exploration in the 1800s and the trading post at isle a la cache (fished there since I was a baby). Ama about the town and history! So cool and surreal to see my old neighborhood on the first video I watched today!
Can I just say that the panopticon model is psychologically horrifying. It's the anxiety haver's nightmare. At any moment, you could be observed, so for as long as you were in prison, you had theoretically zero privacy. You could be judged at any time for any reason. I would have a hard time sending even my worst enemy to that reality.
Prisons overall tend to be inhuman nightmares. Even here in Sweden where we try to treat people decently we still stack several people in one cell, which is just unacceptable. It's bad enough to be locked inside somewhere, but being locked inside together with someone is just inhuman. Human being need human company, but we also need solitude. It's a fundamental human need and to interfere with it is torture.
The only relief I ever get from generalized anxiety is at night when I'm alone and I know everyone's sleeping. Nobody's around or awake to bother or judge whatever it is that I'm doing or just me in general. For that reason I've been a night owl ever since I was a kid. A prison like that would be my personal hell. I genuinely believe I wouldn't survive there.
@6:49 you state "251 case per 100,000 troops" which would be of little concern. However the actual case numbers as the CC shows is '251 cases per 1,000 troops' which is a problem.
Suggestion: the Pellagra (sp.) Experiments. "With the cooperation of Mississippi's progressive governor, Earl Brewer, Goldberger experimented on eleven healthy volunteer prisoners at the Rankin State Prison Farm in 1915. Offered pardons in return for their participation, the volunteers ate a corn-based diet." - National Institute of Health (NIH, a US government institution) The study supposedly promised American convicts freedom for eating a diet deficient in a critical vitamin - B-3. The goal was to test the theory that many Southerners in the US were not contracting a communicable disease, although one could see why it presents as one. This was during a time when people were just beginning to understand TB, Polio, etc. Germ theory. Many of the subjects developed serious pellagric rashes. Dr. Goldberger injected himself with pellagric blood to prove that it wasn't communicable. This was a disease that was causing tens of thousands of deaths in Southern States, primarily an effect due to poverty. Ethical quandary. There isn't a lot about these experiments, but they were as critical as the goiter (enlarged thyroid, iodine deficiency) experiments in changing the way food was fortified. Iodized salt, niacin-enriched wheat flour. It essentially eliminated these once-prevalent diseases. It was just the ethics of the Pellagra Prison Experiments that were particularly... questionable. I think it's interesting. Maybe others do as well!
I remember something about that, like scurvy needs citrus, they just needed iodized salt to cure the pellagra? Interesting 🤔 that would be a great pd vid
@@samanthaivyleigh There were two common nutritional deficiencies that were identified around the same time, but aren't directly related: Vitamin B-3 deficiency, best known for causing pellagra, cured by niacin which was added to flour. Iodine deficiency, best known for causing goiter, cured by iodine which was added to salt.
There's an important side to the difference between a victim and a volunteer that has major implications for volunteers in the civil situation. This video reminded me of the words of Returned Services League Victoria President, Bruce Ruxton, in response to a situation where Army volunteers from a nuclear trial in the fiftees found themselves legally blocked from claiming compensation for chronic health problems due to radiation exposure from the government. Rule number one is DON'T VOLUNTEER. Morality aside, you have almost no chance of legal compensation when it all goes pear shaped.
I’ve really enjoyed this series! Would be interesting for you to do a video on how pregnant women were treated and babies delivered in hospitals in the early 1900s. Some pretty non-evidence based scary stuff.
You should do one on Vipeholm experiments in Sweden, most people thing we are angels, nice to get a more realistic view. Think there are more than just the vipeholm as well 🙃
The problem with The Nuremberg Trials is that they established a standard of justice that none of the Allies had thought to employ at home and have scarcely been interested in implementing since.
it just maintained the victors write the historybooks baseline. if the other side won that war, than the us/uk/su horrors would be well known and demonized, while the ones displayed in nuremberg would be turned into minor cases and it was in a war, so it was acceptable and such.
Yes, it was the sort of "justice" meted out by the victors against the defeated. The large-scale bombings of innocent civilians by the allies (who did it on a much, much larger scale than the Axis) is objectively much worse than the horrific malaria experiments, given the immense death toll, but not one ally was ever charged with war crimes because of it.
@@thorin1045 Even then it was really only the Germans who got the main punishment. Japan got off with a pretty light punishment. Victors write the history books is debatable. A lot of misconceptions and lies about WW2 Germany come from German generals and other high ranked people in nazi germany who survived. I would say survivors write history.
@@cactusman1771 technically that part, that the surviving germans could tell anything, lies or not is also a victors write the history, but for the next war (cold war), the western writings would not be in play if the commies win that. and of course it is muddled with a bunch of other issues. Japan get off relatively easy is the result of the cold war too, the us needed japan during and after the korean war.
My father, in the RNZAF during WWII was posted to Guadalcanal. He was sent home with malaria and I recall him getting recurring bouts of it for years when I was a child.
you should have also made this a collab with legal eagle channel and also include and rate both the Stateville and also and the German one and also done a deep dive analytical section (approx 3 hours) on how the malaria virus itself works and also a section on the consent of the microorgranism ethics and also their free will of choice and also....
Speaking of which, The Vipeholm Experiments, where the link between caries and sugar was tested on intellectually disabled. The biggest unethical science scandal in sweden
Aye, I live super close to Stateville. I did know about this, but not much about it. Very interesting. They also put on a, killer, haunted house attraction.
Rating: well I would say a 4. Compared to the other dark side of science videos, this is the least egregious of them, but not spelling out what the hazards were clearly in writing means they were hiding something. Malaria wasn't unknown, but what did the late 1930's prison poplation know about it and its effects?
Actually a fair amount. At this time malaria still would occasionally break out throughout South United States as far north as Washington DC. Malaria has been a constant issue for anyone working in moderately tropical environments for a very long time, and we actively monitor throughout Florida Georgia and the virginias for signs of this infection returning, because malaria is extraordinarily hard to treat without the use of these powerful drugs, and the illness actually taking up residence in the bone marrow leading to very common repeat infections. Even today programs around the world are seeking a way to finally beat this pest into Extinction, and so far having failed.
The best part of this one is that there was no shortage of malaria cases already at hand. There was no need to create more...but as I always remind my family, atrocities in all societies are often thought of as "experiments" by "scientists".
"There was no need to create more... [malaria cases for the study]" Yes and no. For treatment after infection, they could have enrolled malaria patients. Though, without the controlled environment, they would need a larger cohort of participants to smooth out the noisier data. This might take more time than they thought they could afford to wait during a war. For preventive treatment, the waiting time could be *way* longer. If the infection rate is not super high, it can take many months, even with thousands of participants, to get a good "signal" from the results. Hence the "challenge" infection, to skip that waiting. Urgency is a frequent provider of moral license. Beware of events or attitudes that lead to emergencies, or promote a sense of urgency.
@@hermanrobak1285Good point about the dangers of urgency. I just got scammed by s.o., because I was a bit to quick with a pre-payment for an offer to good to be true. One hour later I received an automated warning by the online market place about that person, but he (or she) was already gone with my money...
I think you missed a part of the horrifying part. Were the Prisoners really criminals? or were there guilty of stuff like "selling cotton after sundown?
I assume you're referring to Jim Crow laws here. For what it's worth, the participants in the study were all white males of similar age and in good health, so you wouldn't have anyone who had run afoul of racist law enforcement.
It doesn't matter. You are imprisoned for the crime you've been sentenced for. Whether you did something horrendous or just a minor thing does not change that no one has a right to subject you to such treatment. Imprisonment does not mean forfeiture of your human rights.
@@VarjoMedia Which treatment are you referring to that represents a forfeiture of human rights? The informed consent was iffy, but at its core everyone involved understood that they were signing up to intentionally catch malaria for science. This is one of those events that we look back at and go "oof, that was not good" but at the time it was a new high point in medical ethics. Our current view of it was largely shaped *by* the Nuremberg Trials forcing us to recognize that it wasn't nearly good enough.
As the video says one of the prisoners was Nathan Leopold, who, with his cohort Richard Loeb murdered a 14 yr old boy. These were wealthy, white Chicago college boys who left incriminating evidence at the scene of the crime (Leopold's expensive glasses) among other clues.
Panopticon is what the Dutch Koepelgevangenis uses (dome jail) right? I live near a high security prison, but that one just looks like a mix of a school and fortress.
Just a heads up, it could be just me, I could easily be mistaken myself but... I truly thought, I had been subscribed to the channel being I watch your videos quite often. Here recently, again I could've swore I was definitely subbed, just having previously had this prior thought and made sure to click the button. Upon clicking this video, I see I'm not subscribed. So I click to sub. I could be mistaken, I admit. But I really do feel I had already subscribed. Simply wondering if you knew of anyone else on your channel had this problem. 🤔
Is it ethical human testing if participants are neither informed of the expected possible side-effects nor of the fact that they're participating in a human drug trial in the first place?
The topdown picture of Dachau you showed at the end feels weird for me... The building that im currently sitting in would be visible on there if it had been built back then.
You should do a dark side video on the experiments the US did in Japan after the atomic bombs were dropped. Instead of treating them, all they did was record the effects of the bombs on survivors. Made me cry when I heard about it.
@@MyHentaiGirl you think kids deserve to die horrific deaths because their parents, or really more specifically their political leaders were shitty people? Would you be willing to pay the price for the atrocities your politicians partake in?
@@MyHentaiGirl As a guy from a Country that faced incendiary devices, the doodlebug bomb and a general blitz I can state with certainty that civilian populations should not be the target for any kind of bomb. I would even argue the US use of nuclear devices on civilian population centres is immoral, abhorrent, and verges on a war crime. I understand how brutal the Japanese Army was, we faced them ourselves, however when you act in a brutal manner in facing a brutal enemy you lose your moral high ground
Very interesting and well worth viewing. For the time the protocols at Stateville prison (IMHO) were reasonable and proper. There were undoubtedly medical experiments done in the same era in the US that were almost as barbaric as the concentration camp 'studies'. If the defence attorneys had used the Tuskegee untreated syphilis study it would have been much harder to discount the similarity (I suppose that the fact that the Tuskegee subjects were not murdered afterwards would have to count for a lot, (but still Tuskegee was clearly unethical and certainly racist). Very glad to see that this did lead to a uniform code for the carrying out of medical testing.
This is the reason why I have nothing to do with medical research, because they have a hard time disclosing all of the possibilities of a new medical drug when they themselves don't know the effects the drug has on the human body. I was asked to partake in one where they didn't disclose ANY possible side-effects the drug possibly could have, and this was only two decades ago. and They likely had a who team of lawyers to protect them in the courtroom, while I and the other unfortunate people who trusted them have to fend for ourselves. No thank you!
Definitely higher on the unethical scale. A lot of these prisoners would have only been in for 2yrs max so, possibly, for something minor. Not worthy of a lifetime of side effects or death. Even if they weren't, they deserve to make an informed choice. But I highly doubt they'd have offered to parole any lifers on this study.
Very interesting DSoS, I wasn't aware Leopold was a part of it. Nowhere near the evil of Nazi prisoner actions or the Tuskegee syphilis case, which I guess is good? Good one anyway John, gonna blast some of your music later this afternoon while I garden 👍
I would love to see an episode "behind the scenes" where you show people who you research a video etc. So much work has to go into this, and I don't think people appreciate, how proper research is done on a topic.
Yeah 3 is fair for this xD different time for sure, loved the connotation to the military vision on prisons being useful and generally certain places being difficult to ocupy. Really brings up some questions, and im one to normally question the financial, we're just along enough i hadnt concidered something like viral lol
It is funny that the Nuerenberg Trial would probably also fail the modern test of justice because of its use of the Nuerenberg medical ethics code. (And other things that have changed since then) As they judged people on a code written after their imprisonment/during their trial.
Getting incomplete information about how you are being used in an experiment is equivalent to getting no information at all. Prisoners are still humans, and I would say this should be scored closer to an 8 or 9.
I'd rate it an 8. It's not PURE evil, but then, neither were the studies at Dachau. Both experiments at least tried to learn something. If they did it just for fun, THAT would be a 10.
I'm from Illinois. Though I haven't been "behind the wall" at Statesville, I have been thru their receiving unit several times waiting to shipped out to other prisons. Real shit hole, still to this day!
I hope you all find this one interesting! I think it will be the last Dark Side of Science for a while.
Thats to bad there one of my favorites
Understandable, I would imagine researching this stuff is depressing to say the least.
I think I understand and get it thank you for what we've seen love all your work.
When did US Prisons Experimented on inmates . What Race were they ? Nazi’s got a lot of inspiration from America .
You should consider tagging in and out of these topics with a collaborative partner. Topics this difficult to cover will definitely take a toll on someone.
Chill out for a bit, mate.
Love that pic with the men wearing nets on their heads but with exposed arms and legs. Nice job guys, you really understand the principles at play there.
I think we all paused the video here and shook our heads.
Reminds me of when I worked a hazmat job. This guy ripped holes in his suit so he could get to his cell phone.
Contaminated hands onto no longer clean pockets into a now contaminated phone...right to the mouth 🤦♀️
@@JoshuaTootell 😱
@@JoshuaTootell The answer is obvious because of the suits but
What were you working with exactly so I can recoil in revulsion properly?
@@StephenMckeighen good try lol
It’s a strange thing for one of these ‘Dark Side’ episodes to have a case where it’s still awful,but not as awful as it could have been.
Indeed
Considering it was accompanioned with a storry of torture and genocide of 1200 people, think its quite up to standard
It's not as worse as the mk ultra/mk naomi experiments that were done using unsuspecting public and the most vulnerable people in our society.
Kudos to getting the name of the prison correct!! I worked at Stateville between 1989 and 2002, and got very tired of being asked what "Statesville" was like. It was a maximum-security prison, which usually housed prisoners serving longer sentences for more serious felonies or who had caused discipline problems at lesser-security prisons. The round house was still in use when I worked there.
often confused with the Old Joliet Prison from Blues Brothers
Hey PD, this was an incredible episode, really well paced and explained. You have really found your stride! Also its so cool to know you make your own soundtracks!!! 👍
Thank you I really appreciate it! Glad you enjoyed it!
@@PlainlyDifficult = rock star
Just as I was searching for a new Plainly Difficult video! I think these science topics are a good contrast to your usual disaster content, but either way I love a new upload! 😁 Great work! 💪🙌
Thank you
Every Saturday my friend, like clockwork! 😁
Love the science ones so far from what I've seen!
The Nuremburg Code. That creation designed to do so much to protect so many, thrown out the window so readily.
It was just a show.
The Nuremburg Code was ignoresd 2020-2022 ("Corona"-sting) as well globally
Do one on borellia, Bartonella and rickettsia. These were all tested on humans and have been left to run wild today.
Super interesting video! One note on pronunciation, the word "Quechua" (referring to the people and the language) is pronounced "KEH-chew-uh" rather than "kwey-CHEW-uh" and for any future reference, most of the time with words that come from Yucatec mayan (a language mostly found today in fragmentary surviving words and names, mostly in the Yucatan peninsula) if they include an X, it makes an "ish" sound, like the "sh" in the word "sluSH". names like Xochilt are pronounced as "sho-cheel". Keep up the good work!
You must be a riot at parties. Bless your heart!
99.9% of what you tried teaching everyone here, doesn't pertain to really anything in this video, BUT personally, I actually appreciate learning that. Cheers
Came for a video about immoral scientific experimentation, (also) learned about Yucatan Mayan language. Gotta love the Internet.
For that matter "quinine" is pronounced "KWY-nine", none "kwinning".
Also, Plasmodium falciparum is pronounced fal-sip-a-room.
Day started off sad, but then I remembered, it's Saturday! New Plainly!
Fascinating that you ranked it that low. I'd have gone with at least a 5, probably 6. Considering all the side effects that can linger from this, it feels much more unethical than it was made out to be, regardless of the participants' past. even people I hate don't deserve to have lifelong heart issues (except child molesters, they deserve suffering).
also, for a moment I forgot that the UK drives on the opposite side from the US, and the ending was very disorientating. xD;
Eh, I think a 3 is about accurate. A zero would be a totally safe, morally unambiguous test. In this case, the consent was somewhat dodgy, but they did know they were signing up to catch malaria, which was pretty well known at the time in terms of what it could do to you, and it's entirely possible the doctors actually explained more in person than what was in the signed document. They weren't told they might be testing experimental drugs that could have serious side effects, and that's the really dubious part, but still, on the scale of zero to Dachau, it's gotta be a pretty low score.
The people I hate do.
If you could do a video on the tuberculosis experiment at Willowbrook state school it would be appreciated.
Thanks for the suggestion!
They reopened the roundhouse at Stateville Prison in 2020 for purposes of forceful quarantine. It is probably the largest such roundhouse in the country.
Whether misunderstood, misinterpreted or misrepresented, they did at least make an attempt at consent, even if it was with a somewhat captive audience...
They did make an attempt
A very marginal difference at best. And when you're only marginally better than what went on at Dachau you're on pretty thin ice...
@@foo219 That even if you were part of the half that survived the Nazi malaria experiments, you were killed anyway is only a “marginal” difference?!?!
I love the speed you going with this video!
For something similar, take a look at 'Acres of Skin,' by Allen Hornblum. It recounts how mostly black prisoners from Philadelphia were used for drug experiments, many of which were for dermatology products for companies that are well-known today. Many were scarred for life. Participation was encouraged because it gave prisoners a little spending money, which positively affected prisoner behavior. Some participated because it gave them money for commissary goods, which they could use to avoid unwanted sexual advances. Sadly, because many men were from very poor backgrounds, no one on the outside funded thier commissary, so without participation, they wouldn't have any money. The studies raise questions about race, consent, research ethics, research on prisoners - the list goes on.
Thank you for another harrowing example of the importance of full informed consent.
I love your series, but I am a medical laboratory scientist with a microbiology specialization and this murdered me (despite it being an excellent episode) - the species name is pronounced fal-si-puh-rum.
We had an entire unit on the Plasmodium species; they continue to be a huge problem. Nothing But Nets is an excellent charity if anyone wants to look into it ❤️
Informed consent is hard to achieve when lying is not merely unpunished, but defended.
Holly shit, that video was quite triggering.
I am actually Austrian and also the granddaughter of a Holocaust survivor and I've lost a huge amount of relatives in concentration camps.
Some of them even fell victims to medical experiments.
I honestly couldn't even finish the video, but thx for talking about it.
Thanks John. I would put Stateville around '5'. I'm assuming, and please, correct me if I'm wrong, that you are saying not all that nasty because of the times they were living in. I'm saying '5' because of the times they were living in as well. If it was done now (some would argue it still is but in a much less obvious way), then '9' would be right, specifically because they had to seek permission from the participant. That, in my opinion, almost makes things worse in Stateville because they knew that it was an easy way to manipulate the prisoners.
I think my rating was a bit of the times and then in comparison to the crimes set out in the Nuremberg trials. Thanks for the comment
Hey i grew up just off the edge of the map you showed at 9:15, I know alot about the history of the area since its exploration in the 1800s and the trading post at isle a la cache (fished there since I was a baby). Ama about the town and history! So cool and surreal to see my old neighborhood on the first video I watched today!
Yeay I am #3. Denver Colorado for Plainly D. Loves this guy.
😬
Can I just say that the panopticon model is psychologically horrifying. It's the anxiety haver's nightmare. At any moment, you could be observed, so for as long as you were in prison, you had theoretically zero privacy. You could be judged at any time for any reason. I would have a hard time sending even my worst enemy to that reality.
It does seem pretty cruel
Prisons overall tend to be inhuman nightmares. Even here in Sweden where we try to treat people decently we still stack several people in one cell, which is just unacceptable. It's bad enough to be locked inside somewhere, but being locked inside together with someone is just inhuman. Human being need human company, but we also need solitude. It's a fundamental human need and to interfere with it is torture.
Apparently it’s still in use in that prison, too
The only relief I ever get from generalized anxiety is at night when I'm alone and I know everyone's sleeping. Nobody's around or awake to bother or judge whatever it is that I'm doing or just me in general. For that reason I've been a night owl ever since I was a kid. A prison like that would be my personal hell. I genuinely believe I wouldn't survive there.
@6:49 you state "251 case per 100,000 troops" which would be of little concern. However the actual case numbers as the CC shows is '251 cases per 1,000 troops' which is a problem.
Have to push this comment so that others spot this discrepancy. I think the number is 25.6%
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2241971/?page=5
It’s a concern to those 250 out of 100,000. That’s pretty harsh my dude.
@@ThunderStruck15 You totally missed the point dude.
I really like your channel so what ever you put out I will watch.
Suggestion: the Pellagra (sp.) Experiments.
"With the cooperation of Mississippi's progressive governor, Earl Brewer, Goldberger experimented on eleven healthy volunteer prisoners at the Rankin State Prison Farm in 1915. Offered pardons in return for their participation, the volunteers ate a corn-based diet." - National Institute of Health (NIH, a US government institution)
The study supposedly promised American convicts freedom for eating a diet deficient in a critical vitamin - B-3. The goal was to test the theory that many Southerners in the US were not contracting a communicable disease, although one could see why it presents as one. This was during a time when people were just beginning to understand TB, Polio, etc. Germ theory.
Many of the subjects developed serious pellagric rashes. Dr. Goldberger injected himself with pellagric blood to prove that it wasn't communicable. This was a disease that was causing tens of thousands of deaths in Southern States, primarily an effect due to poverty.
Ethical quandary. There isn't a lot about these experiments, but they were as critical as the goiter (enlarged thyroid, iodine deficiency) experiments in changing the way food was fortified. Iodized salt, niacin-enriched wheat flour. It essentially eliminated these once-prevalent diseases. It was just the ethics of the Pellagra Prison Experiments that were particularly... questionable.
I think it's interesting. Maybe others do as well!
Thanks for the suggestion
@@PlainlyDifficult Sure thing. Been watching your videos for years. Love what you do
I remember something about that, like scurvy needs citrus, they just needed iodized salt to cure the pellagra? Interesting 🤔 that would be a great pd vid
@@samanthaivyleigh There were two common nutritional deficiencies that were identified around the same time, but aren't directly related:
Vitamin B-3 deficiency, best known for causing pellagra, cured by niacin which was added to flour.
Iodine deficiency, best known for causing goiter, cured by iodine which was added to salt.
This is why I drink as many gin & tonics as possible. Keeps my quinine count strong.
:D
There's an important side to the difference between a victim and a volunteer that has major implications for volunteers in the civil situation.
This video reminded me of the words of Returned Services League Victoria President, Bruce Ruxton, in response to a situation where Army volunteers from a nuclear trial in the fiftees found themselves legally blocked from claiming compensation for chronic health problems due to radiation exposure from the government.
Rule number one is DON'T VOLUNTEER.
Morality aside, you have almost no chance of legal compensation when it all goes pear shaped.
I knew something about this, but your video really filled in some blanks. Very interesting.
It’s amazing how morality and human rights was never considered… assuming prisoners had no humanity or rights
...We often forget that now.
I enjoyed that Jon✌ loving your tune's aswell 🤘
Thank you
I’ve really enjoyed this series! Would be interesting for you to do a video on how pregnant women were treated and babies delivered in hospitals in the early 1900s. Some pretty non-evidence based scary stuff.
I read the transcripts from the doctors trial. It’s both horrifying and fascinating.
Always a treat seeing these in my feed. I hope everything's well.
Thank you
Aww. Last for awhile? Dang. Oh well, any upload is a good upload. Great vid!
You should do one on Vipeholm experiments in Sweden, most people thing we are angels, nice to get a more realistic view. Think there are more than just the vipeholm as well 🙃
Mr South Londons Saturday upload Great. 👍🏻🇬🇧
Thank you
@@PlainlyDifficult not a problem. 👍🏻
Quality as always
Thank you
The problem with The Nuremberg Trials is that they established a standard of justice that none of the Allies had thought to employ at home and have scarcely been interested in implementing since.
That's because it was all a big show.
it just maintained the victors write the historybooks baseline. if the other side won that war, than the us/uk/su horrors would be well known and demonized, while the ones displayed in nuremberg would be turned into minor cases and it was in a war, so it was acceptable and such.
Yes, it was the sort of "justice" meted out by the victors against the defeated. The large-scale bombings of innocent civilians by the allies (who did it on a much, much larger scale than the Axis) is objectively much worse than the horrific malaria experiments, given the immense death toll, but not one ally was ever charged with war crimes because of it.
@@thorin1045 Even then it was really only the Germans who got the main punishment. Japan got off with a pretty light punishment. Victors write the history books is debatable. A lot of misconceptions and lies about WW2 Germany come from German generals and other high ranked people in nazi germany who survived. I would say survivors write history.
@@cactusman1771 technically that part, that the surviving germans could tell anything, lies or not is also a victors write the history, but for the next war (cold war), the western writings would not be in play if the commies win that. and of course it is muddled with a bunch of other issues. Japan get off relatively easy is the result of the cold war too, the us needed japan during and after the korean war.
This is fascinating (and awful). Thank you for all the work you put in to making these videos!
This was very interesting. As a resident of Illinois and someone who lives not far from statesville prison, I am in shock of this experiment.
Hmm, same thing with the COOF pokes...
Great video.
My father, in the RNZAF during WWII was posted to Guadalcanal. He was sent home with malaria and I recall him getting recurring bouts of it for years when I was a child.
you should have also made this a collab with legal eagle channel and also include and rate both the Stateville and also and the German one and also done a deep dive analytical section (approx 3 hours) on how the malaria virus itself works and also a section on the consent of the microorgranism ethics and also their free will of choice and also....
Sounds good!
Always makes you proud to hear a name from your homecountry mentioned i these videos 😬
😬
Speaking of which, The Vipeholm Experiments, where the link between caries and sugar was tested on intellectually disabled. The biggest unethical science scandal in sweden
Aye, I live super close to Stateville. I did know about this, but not much about it. Very interesting. They also put on a, killer, haunted house attraction.
Rating: well I would say a 4. Compared to the other dark side of science videos, this is the least egregious of them, but not spelling out what the hazards were clearly in writing means they were hiding something. Malaria wasn't unknown, but what did the late 1930's prison poplation know about it and its effects?
Actually a fair amount. At this time malaria still would occasionally break out throughout South United States as far north as Washington DC. Malaria has been a constant issue for anyone working in moderately tropical environments for a very long time, and we actively monitor throughout Florida Georgia and the virginias for signs of this infection returning, because malaria is extraordinarily hard to treat without the use of these powerful drugs, and the illness actually taking up residence in the bone marrow leading to very common repeat infections. Even today programs around the world are seeking a way to finally beat this pest into Extinction, and so far having failed.
"Well, I could be wrong, but I believe Ethical is an old wooden ship that was being used during the Civil War era."
The best part of this one is that there was no shortage of malaria cases already at hand. There was no need to create more...but as I always remind my family, atrocities in all societies are often thought of as "experiments" by "scientists".
"There was no need to create more... [malaria cases for the study]"
Yes and no. For treatment after infection, they could have enrolled malaria patients. Though, without the controlled environment, they would need a larger cohort of participants to smooth out the noisier data. This might take more time than they thought they could afford to wait during a war.
For preventive treatment, the waiting time could be *way* longer. If the infection rate is not super high, it can take many months, even with thousands of participants, to get a good "signal" from the results. Hence the "challenge" infection, to skip that waiting.
Urgency is a frequent provider of moral license. Beware of events or attitudes that lead to emergencies, or promote a sense of urgency.
@@hermanrobak1285Good point about the dangers of urgency. I just got scammed by s.o., because I was a bit to quick with a pre-payment for an offer to good to be true. One hour later I received an automated warning by the online market place about that person, but he (or she) was already gone with my money...
music is great, keep it up
Lot of nasty things go on under the pressure of war. It's kind of like the rules get bent.
Absolutely love these
Sir, your dark history is just getting darker and darker, oh humanity!!!🙏🤔😬 Btw another excellent episode!!!👻
I think you missed a part of the horrifying part. Were the Prisoners really criminals? or were there guilty of stuff like "selling cotton after sundown?
im pretty sure laws like that would have sentences less than 18 months
I assume you're referring to Jim Crow laws here. For what it's worth, the participants in the study were all white males of similar age and in good health, so you wouldn't have anyone who had run afoul of racist law enforcement.
It doesn't matter. You are imprisoned for the crime you've been sentenced for. Whether you did something horrendous or just a minor thing does not change that no one has a right to subject you to such treatment. Imprisonment does not mean forfeiture of your human rights.
@@VarjoMedia Which treatment are you referring to that represents a forfeiture of human rights? The informed consent was iffy, but at its core everyone involved understood that they were signing up to intentionally catch malaria for science.
This is one of those events that we look back at and go "oof, that was not good" but at the time it was a new high point in medical ethics. Our current view of it was largely shaped *by* the Nuremberg Trials forcing us to recognize that it wasn't nearly good enough.
As the video says one of the prisoners was Nathan Leopold, who, with his cohort Richard Loeb murdered a 14 yr old boy. These were wealthy, white Chicago college boys who left incriminating evidence at the scene of the crime (Leopold's expensive glasses) among other clues.
I lovvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvve Your channel is the best on RUclips
That's weird, I've heard about denying people treatment for the sake of a study, but actually trying to get people sick is a new level.
All your videos are amazing....but I have to say the comment bubbles really get me 🤣 👍
‘Got my pills ‘gainst mosquito death, my buddies breathin his dying breath.’
In the context of those times, 1
💜🙏⚡️
Back then they believed the whole experiment was okay. We ask today was the experiment unethical? HELL YEAH IT IS
Pretty much
Haven`t seen your videos in a while
Oh no welcome back!
I'm really enjoying this video, even though I smoked before watching it and now I'm having a panic attack about it.
Glad they figured it out!
Panopticon is what the Dutch Koepelgevangenis uses (dome jail) right? I live near a high security prison, but that one just looks like a mix of a school and fortress.
Just a heads up, it could be just me, I could easily be mistaken myself but...
I truly thought, I had been subscribed to the channel being I watch your videos quite often. Here recently, again I could've swore I was definitely subbed, just having previously had this prior thought and made sure to click the button. Upon clicking this video, I see I'm not subscribed. So I click to sub. I could be mistaken, I admit. But I really do feel I had already subscribed. Simply wondering if you knew of anyone else on your channel had this problem. 🤔
Is it ethical human testing if participants are neither informed of the expected possible side-effects nor of the fact that they're participating in a human drug trial in the first place?
Great video!
The topdown picture of Dachau you showed at the end feels weird for me... The building that im currently sitting in would be visible on there if it had been built back then.
And people think the internet scammers are the only bad people to worry about lol
Maybe some do. 1/2 of the country knows the government is the biggest danger. Especially the "intelligence" services. FBI, NSA, etc
No one in the US hanged for our medical crimes
Tis a shame.
You should do a dark side video on the experiments the US did in Japan after the atomic bombs were dropped. Instead of treating them, all they did was record the effects of the bombs on survivors. Made me cry when I heard about it.
@@MyHentaiGirl you think kids deserve to die horrific deaths because their parents, or really more specifically their political leaders were shitty people? Would you be willing to pay the price for the atrocities your politicians partake in?
@@MyHentaiGirl As a guy from a Country that faced incendiary devices, the doodlebug bomb and a general blitz I can state with certainty that civilian populations should not be the target for any kind of bomb. I would even argue the US use of nuclear devices on civilian population centres is immoral, abhorrent, and verges on a war crime. I understand how brutal the Japanese Army was, we faced them ourselves, however when you act in a brutal manner in facing a brutal enemy you lose your moral high ground
If dropping the bomb saved even one American life, it was the right thing to do.
@@Patco11 you think a rando American is worth hundreds of japanese children? Yikes dude.
@@ThunderStruck15 Yes I do.
Please cover the Granville disaster. It's the worst train disaster in Australia and had a slew of greed and corruption around it
Very interesting and well worth viewing. For the time the protocols at Stateville prison (IMHO) were reasonable and proper. There were undoubtedly medical experiments done in the same era in the US that were almost as barbaric as the concentration camp 'studies'. If the defence attorneys had used the Tuskegee untreated syphilis study it would have been much harder to discount the similarity (I suppose that the fact that the Tuskegee subjects were not murdered afterwards would have to count for a lot, (but still Tuskegee was clearly unethical and certainly racist). Very glad to see that this did lead to a uniform code for the carrying out of medical testing.
Darkest one yet John.
When you watch this early because Patreon supporter but you still open the full release version to leave a like.
Thank you
This is the reason why I have nothing to do with medical research, because they have a hard time disclosing all of the possibilities of a new medical drug when they themselves don't know the effects the drug has on the human body. I was asked to partake in one where they didn't disclose ANY possible side-effects the drug possibly could have, and this was only two decades ago. and They likely had a who team of lawyers to protect them in the courtroom, while I and the other unfortunate people who trusted them have to fend for ourselves. No thank you!
Definitely higher on the unethical scale. A lot of these prisoners would have only been in for 2yrs max so, possibly, for something minor. Not worthy of a lifetime of side effects or death. Even if they weren't, they deserve to make an informed choice. But I highly doubt they'd have offered to parole any lifers on this study.
600 courtrooms. Says a lot just by itself.
Very interesting DSoS, I wasn't aware Leopold was a part of it. Nowhere near the evil of Nazi prisoner actions or the Tuskegee syphilis case, which I guess is good? Good one anyway John, gonna blast some of your music later this afternoon while I garden 👍
❤❤I learned a lot thank you ❤❤
I would love to see an episode "behind the scenes" where you show people who you research a video etc.
So much work has to go into this, and I don't think people appreciate, how proper research is done on a topic.
Yeah 3 is fair for this xD different time for sure, loved the connotation to the military vision on prisons being useful and generally certain places being difficult to ocupy. Really brings up some questions, and im one to normally question the financial, we're just along enough i hadnt concidered something like viral lol
What an intro... buckle up!
Given recent events. We all should know what it feels like to be those prisoners.
I like your videos.
Who needs nightmares, way more horror in the waking world.
They say "inhuman acts" regarding war crimes but humans are the only ones that do sht like that.
Brilliance but very sad. Chorloquine was best
It is funny that the Nuerenberg Trial would probably also fail the modern test of justice because of its use of the Nuerenberg medical ethics code. (And other things that have changed since then)
As they judged people on a code written after their imprisonment/during their trial.
So If That Was A 3...Where Do You Put The Current Medical Experimentation At ?
If you could do a video about Sterigenics in Willow Springs IL. They basically released cancer into the air for decades and no one knew.
Getting incomplete information about how you are being used in an experiment is equivalent to getting no information at all. Prisoners are still humans, and I would say this should be scored closer to an 8 or 9.
What about an episode on the Northwick hospital, London, TGN1412 drug trial in 2006?
Rated 7 / 10
17:32
I feel like I'd be on that, especially if I'm in for a long sentencing
Bored, able to help "our boys in the military", and curious
Isn't the introduction of quinine to Africa kind of a good thing though?
So if you just drank tonic water containing quinine would that be enough?
Id pay to see someone dissect a mosquito
I'd rate it an 8. It's not PURE evil, but then, neither were the studies at Dachau. Both experiments at least tried to learn something. If they did it just for fun, THAT would be a 10.
The closed caption lies about the weather in London...
I'm from Illinois.
Though I haven't been "behind the wall" at Statesville, I have been thru their receiving unit several times waiting to shipped out to other prisons.
Real shit hole, still to this day!