Ball show...I'm passionate about stories..even more the mistakes caused by us..I have one is a disaster that happened in Brazil.. Joelma Building was one of the biggest disasters of the 70's..!
What about a comparison between the events of Shutter Island and real life psychiatry? How much is dramatic licence and how much is real ? Could be linked to your excellent video on lobotomies. Or the sale / use of radioactive materials in foodstuffs
I highly recommend John Colapinto's book, "As Nature Made Him" which tells the story of David Reimer (one half of a set of identical twin boys) who was born male, but then sexually reassigned and raised as female...basically putting to the test whether sexual identity is inborn (Nature), or learned (Nurture). A very, very sobering read indeed. en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/As_Nature_Made_Him
The fact he gave up on the joke section after only two people because the second person shrugged it off says everything you need to know about this guy.
I think the worst part is that he already had the answer earlier, there are no universal emotions. That result is very interesting on its own but he really wanted a different answer.
Maybe that was the case with this one guy in particular, but generally in science the goal is to test a hypothesis as much as possible with repeated experiments to make sure that previous results weren't a fluke of some sort. This is especially true if you find ways to shrink the margin of error from previous experiments (like by expanding and diversifying your sample size). What should have stopped this man was the cruel nature of his experimental design - although clearly he didn't have a problem with that since he just made the second experiment even crueler.
@@imaspoon4522 morbid curiosity. He probably also enjoyed the authority. Making people do things they didn't want to do. Also interesting are the couple of cases where they refused to kill the rat and he didn't do it himself. He didn't disclose why. I imagine those people defied his authority to an extent where he deemed it to be unworthy to insist on it, and he didn't like that (the "defeat"). I think it's peculiar that he left it out.
Sadly, we no longer live in world where the definition of "science" means what it used to. It's been weaponized & changed and now politicians & the media throw it around just as they use & abuse statistics to prop up whatever myth or legend they're attempting to support (most often involving the pharma companies, as they dump billions into advertising into the "news" & legislation~ just last year alone, paid out over $140 billion in lobbying towards our congressional members~ is it ANY wonder why our kids are put on average 4-9 psychotropic meds after the *FIRST* visit to a psychologist, most of which all come with "Black Box" warnings for those under the age of 18?). Do we REALLY have a "Mental Health Crisis" in America, or do we have leadership problems, societal problems & educational problems?
The wild thing about these is they're almost always badly designed and yield no useful results. These universities would give these guys money to do anything. I get the feeling they didn't even have to submit a detailed proposal, they just had to say: I need money to do an experiment and they'd get it!
Guess what - this is how it is in Germany to this very day. It is all to discretion by the Professor of the chair. (Of course not if you need vast external money)
Funny, if they actually new much of anything about the human mind or their field, they'd expect it, since the field is overwhelmingly made up of incredibly unhinged people, often lacking heavily in the morality department, making them some of the most interesting people to study in the pursuit of the field. I've had the displeasure of personally meeting many people that work in mental health fields, whether that be more general psychology or more focused specialties, whether as researchers or those that deal with patients in a "positive" (pretty much never, in reality) way, and only a couple were remotely sane people with anything resembling a moral compass and that didn't abuse the power they had over others. I guess, despite studying psychology, they all lack self awareness.
I'd say the percentage of psychopathic personalities inside the field of psychology is greater than any other scientific field. Now that would be an interesting study.
There's studies that show people who have traits of ASPD (which means not all the subjects have an offical disgnosis) are more present in buisness & law enforcement, with some in journalism, civil service, or as chefs. Although, according to prison rates a good portion of re-offenders display ASPD traits/have been diagnosed with ASPD, which is something to consider when judging their careers. I suppose it also depends on the amount of therapy they've had and their range of functionality. I will say: your view of people with ASPD is closed-minded and very hollywood influenced. Despite arguments, there are treatment options for people with ASPD.
The responses to the rat execution would be very different today. Think about it for a minute. This was in the 1920s and it would be quite likely that a good number of the subjects would have grown up on a farm (rats would be considered vermin to be disposed of), where they would have at the least, watched or taken part in the butchering of animals for food. Also if they were from a rural area there could have been hunting as well. The point I'm making is that asking modern group of test subjects to behead a live rat would more than likely produce a major difference of outcome. Just an admittedly, weird thought I had. Great video man. You always present well researched material in a way that is very educational without being boring, and in a non-sensationalist or dramatic way. Have a great week sir. Looking forward to the next video.
I didn't grow up rurally but I've been helping some local people with pest control, and I also do taxidermy. I'd question if there wasn't a way to do this experiment without wasting a life and would probably refuse to do it if the rat wasn't a wild rat, but I wouldn't flinch at the actual process. Beheading is one of the most ethical ways of culling if you know what you're doing, I do it often enough with animals that got into traps in a weird way (so they didn't die, but they were stuck). After the first couple times you do it you get used to it, as with anything else
@@matrixfull Do the same experiment but leave out the electric shocks, psychological manipulation and rat decapitation, and maybe be a bit more descriptive to the test subject of the kinds of things that are going to happen, so at least there’s informed consent. The rest is mostly harmless and you can still capture a wide range of emotional responses while leaving out the most distressing/ethically questionable parts of the experiment.
@@matrixfull It would be ethical but still useless as it is a psychology experiment, not the greatest track record even in understanding what science is about, to put it mildly lol
I’ve always loved how humans often can tell so much just by how they perceive things. My favorite example is talked about by Austin McConell in one of his videos, but the shot version is this; The was an artist named Jean-François Millet, and during his time he was deemed a failed artist . Now we celebrate his amazing paintings. The most famous wound have to be The Angelus; it shows a man and a woman praying over food, in a box they’ve buried (religious thing). This painting was later bought by Salvador Dali; another famous painter. Dali always had a feeling something wasn’t right about the picture. He didn’t think they were praying over food, but something else. They ended up using X-rays to see what’s under the paint, and it shows a child sized casket. Originally the two people praying were actually just morning the loss of a child. It’s unknown why Millet didn’t keep the casket, and later changed it to something less morbid. He was known to draw pictures that he remembered as a kid; maybe this painting was too real for him, or maybe it was so it’d sell better. Either way, we won’t know; what we do know is The Angelus really is a true piece of art that tells two different stories.
@@WobblesandBean it might be the story, but I think the best stories are the ones that don’t have an ending. Leaves the viewer to interpret things completely differently.
@@Just1Nora indeed it is. True emotion is shown in it. Something so real that someone else could feel the emotion did not match the setting. Truly amazing.
@@marcus8710 and THAT will get you immediately get you blacklisted by today's various ethics boards on the basis of informed consent as children can NOT give proper informed consent oh and the 'do no harm' principle
This experiment is so deeply flawed, right down to the fact that it kind of half-heartedly assumes that a single stimulus would produce the same emotional reaction in people with different backgrounds.
@@kilbert666 Carney did not. The Individual differences in facial expressions are so wide that he could not find a single universal expression. It was all a waste.
Right but also wouldn’t it have been smarter to NOT tell them they are looking for their facial expressions? I feel like KNOWING you are being recorded and watched SPECIFICALLY for your facial expressions would make you more aware of your own expressions wouldn’t it??
I have a bachelors of science in psychology and it's freaking weird that we never learned about this. We learned about BF Skinner and Pavlov every 20 minutes but this? We definitely should've!
I have a BS in Anthro and we learned all about this, Stanford Prison Experiment, etc. I’m not sure why they wouldn’t be discussed in Psych. But I had to pass a community ethics board before I could do my senior thesis.
@@RustyClumps in my psych classes we learned about facial expression in general being universal but never to this extent 😭 but mine taught many unethical experiments like the monkey and cloth wire, stanford etc
I think at least the main idea of the experiment was interesting; it would honestly be super neat to see something similar done (more ethically, and) with samples across different cultures, and perhaps different age groups as well
It doesn’t even need to be with humans exclusively since, as mentioned for background, Charles Darwin did some probing of the subject outside the explicit context of psychology. I also think you’d need to tweak the main idea during its reimplementation in human studies to produce something meaningful.
You know, a study like this wouldn’t need to be done today, because we take so much authentic video of our lives, our reactions to things, etc. We could just study all of that.
Most of that footage shows false feelings as they're putting on a show for the likes. We exaggerate our emotions nowadays, already went to far the other way.
Faces are utterly fascinating. A fall onto a concrete floor i had when i was 4 made me unable to focus on the face as a whole for a while, until i got treatment, and looking back it was so disconnecting
Oh that's cool. I'm completely face blind and have been since I was born as near as anyone can tell. BUT sometimes when I get high I think I can get info from it? But maybe I'm just high and imagining it? Lol. I find that a very disorienting experience.
@@SwizzleDrizzl hes speaking of weed which all it does is cause the whole surface of the brain to activate at once and stay active for about 45 minutes. So theres a high chance high thc and cbd weeds do activate that part of his brain. Not on purepose mind you but it still activates everything a little bit. Its also why anxiety rises with weed the brain thinks all the activation is due to environmental changes not internal chemcial changes. Which makes you abrehensive of your environment.
The first experiment made me think of every visit to the optometrist. "I'm going to shoot a blast of air into your eye, please try not to blink or move your eye". Well FFS, don't tell them that you're studying their facial expressions and then expect them to respond genuinely.
I always end up feeling torn over these kinds of studies. The basic idea is actually really fascinating and could possibly provide some insight into human nature/emotions, but it's strays from a scientific research study into straight up S&M.
@@nealkelly9757 these things usually start out with at very least neutral intentions. It leaves the realm of science when it stops being about truly trying to answer a question or gain insight into something and goes into the territory of how far things can be pushed before someone else pushes back.
I would have rated this higher, maybe an 8. He outright stated he wanted to invoke the most anxiety and disturb the subjects of his experiments... really seems like he just enjoyed it, I cant fathom what they were even trying to achieve with all this
The latter experiment was (not so?) inadvertently a model of 'how to induce trauma 101': 1. Place subject into submissive position, from which they physically or psychologically feel unable to escape; 2. Establish dominance over them - preferably convince them you hold the power of life & death; 3. Alternate unpredictably between provoking negative emotion (pain, disgust, guilt, shame, etc), in your subject, and positive emotion. Ta-dah!! You've trauma-bonded your subject to you, & probably induced a post-traumatic condition too. The fact that this guy inadvertently designed an experiment which 'accidentally' mirrored now-commonly-recognised interpersonal abuse patterns probably says much more about his personal life than it ever said about human facial expressions.
Why does this feel like the outline of every relationship I've ever experienced? Parents, lovers, friends, family, coworkers... everybody tries to one up you or is afraid of someone coming along that will one up them. That's how the US is designed -- capitalize on someone's weakness at all times or lose. So that's everybody checking the 1 box. Coworkers compete for who can do the most/best work. Neighbors compete over who's got the biggest wallet. Your whole family tree *is* dominance; grandparents told your parents what to do just like your parents tell you what to do. There's point 2. Parents often have to hide the truth from their child and often really suck at doing so, leading to outburts of anger that can easily lead to the child feeling guilty or shamed, and they're also the source of your first positive emotions, as well. There's 3. Ta-da! You've explained why I'm introverted and generally hate people. People = trauma.
The main problems with this study (and many psychology studies) were the limited sample size, sample nature (university undergraduates), and the questionable ethics at best. Couple this with tendency to torture the data and you have a fine mess. The beheading of the rats, rather nasty bit of work, was poorly thought out as many of the study subjects may not have killed an animal ever. Thus, they would not be very good at and would likely be a bit squeamish.
Fudging is human. Fudging psychiatric data is widespread. It's basically counting symptoms without knowing the underlying principle. Not science unless you Digg deeper...which they can't because psychiatry attracts lower IQ people. It's thus mostly divination and spells.
@@nrdesign1991 The bacon strips you had for breakfast died a much harder death. 100000 babies and toddlers are killed by their mothers every year in the US. They usually are killed many times over during their short lifetimes and when the murder is finalized..left in agony for days, sometimes. I think the experiment you abhor is minimal compared to humanoid misery.
@@nrdesign1991 Killing is exciting. I fish, spearfish and hunt wild pig with a spear. Spearfishing between Tigersharks is wild, grabbing taco from dark underwater caves 60f down.... You are so far removed from being homo sapiens sapiens...I put you in the category of domesticated humanoid. Again, the bacon you ate suffered enourmously for hours. My wild pig did not see it coming and I dispatched it in 5 secs.
Ofc I had to look up the skin disease book bc you told me not to. I’m impressed with how beautiful the illustrations are honestly. The first one that actually freaked me out was the breast cancer wowee
Oddly in group therapy a couple of years ago we were told about a few universal emotions that most people can spot when looking at an image of a person having that emotion no matter from where in the world they are. This was done by also showing us images of people (sometimes the same person) expressing different emotions. This were much more modern images. It was also explained that the exact number of this emotions is still being discussed among those who research this as they are finding different results for a couple of them. So it seems to me like research in this is still active, hopefully in a much more ethical way.
In reference to the person who perceived facial expressions by imagining how it would make them feel: I'm an artist, and I often find myself making the same expression as the character that I'm drawing, which makes for some weird social situations. I swear, I'm not angry! My picture is!
Video suggestion: US Army’s unlawful two decade long germ warfare “experiments” on the public around the country, Headquartered mainly at “Fort Detrick” carried out by special operations division beginning in 1950 “Operation Seaspray” among other operations, alarming stuff.
@annacolleen Brevard Co. FL( home of Kennedy Space Center, a Cruise/Cargo port & 2 Air force bases) is a hotspot for cancer... 60 years of jet, marine and rocket fuel in the water and land. Not to mention the 2 MILLION TONS of 70 YEAR OLD SEWAGE THAT FLOODED THE RIVER CITY OF TITUSVILLE.
They probably lost some valuable data when they threw out any photos that showed no "notable" reactions, because micro expressions are really important. I guess the photo quality probably prevented them from reading those at all though.
Couple of things: 'Stimuli' is a plural term. The singular is 'stimulus'. The obedience thing: very good spot! All-in-all, as a psychologist myself, I cannot otherwise fault this particular episode ... it is bloody accurate, and highlights the need for ethics codes. Well done, sir. 👍👍👍
Hey John, just a note about an error some British youtubers commonly make. Many states in the US have their own university, which they'll call X State Uni or Uni of X. They're all unique, so you do have to say the state's name as part of the university's name. Just saying State University isn't actually the name of the uni.
@@Duuuckiiee omg just like Arizona state university (asu), university of Arizona (u of a), northern Arizona university (nau) and grand canyon university (gcu) why are states like this lmao that's 4 different universities alone in Arizona, not including community College and any other universities idk about
I think every state has a state college doesn’t it? Lol I’m from PA and growing up it took me awhile to realize that Penn State was Pennsylvania State University
While I love this series, I feel like the smoke effects over the results and the super edited images (to the point of deep fry) really cheapen it. I honestly believe the raw images would speak for themselves in the context of these experiments. Trust me, it's disturbing enough as it is.
this is a very important critique and we should all pay attention to the drastically important statement on the quality us consumers expect out of youtube content
The rats disagree, they rate this 9/10. Neither have they consented to the experiment nor did they have their facial expressions recorded, so according to the rats, the experiment was just a waste of life.
You have to wonder who allowed and/or funded some of these projects. Their conclusions are pretty obvious and basically equivalent to to "water is wet".
Since all participants knew that their facial expressions were being examined, the couldn't have been behaving naturally. They must have been acting to a certain degree. It rendered the whole thing useless.
8:28 quick correction, the image you had put on screen is Botticelli's Birth of Venus, not Bouguereau's. While its not an insanely important detail, i feel like its worth mentioning that Bougeureau's is generally perceived as being more sultry than Botticelli's
What a Saturday! Techmoan followed by Plainly Difficult. Doesn’t get better than this ! Landis’s experiment has an obvious flaw that would be difficult though not impossible to eliminate. He’s introduced a bias into the proceedings before any of the “stimuli” have started simply by prefacing the events with an introduction. Even an exhortation ‘not to show emotion’ has inserted a change into thought processes and you aren’t getting a true natural response. I guess the only way to partially get round this is to test for something else and introduce the experiment as something else then perhaps insert the ‘true’ parameters at some stage during the phoney test? But I suppose this would also potentially have some ethical implications as well??? Regardless it’s fascinating stuff. Thank you John.
I think a video on Hisashi Ouchi would fit really well in this series as he was kept alive for months despite being is constant agonizing pain due to radiation damage.
That's already been done, as part of a video on the Tokaimura Criticality. Also, not sure if you're aware, but Ouchi was only kept alive because his family refused to sign a Do Not Resuscitate order against medical advice, not to be used as a medical Guinea pig.
His family included young children and his wife. In the one video mentioned, the narrator might have gone into "hang in there / gambare / perseverance" culture in Japan. Plus, back then, and even now for the most part, the fathers in a family are the breadwinners. A single mother might have to rely on herself and/or possibly her parents. I actually wonder how the relationship was with her in-laws.
I zoned out a little bit, so they MAY have mentioned this; but in that facial expression test, you’d need people from varying cultural backgrounds. A lot of the faces we make are learned through our upbringing and the society we live in. Yes, many expressions like smiling are natural. But I think for more abstract facial expressions, someone from rural Bulgaria might make a slightly different different face for disgust than say an islander from Samoa.
That's an excellent point. I wondered something similar about the difference in reaction between genders since at the time there would presumably have been pretty distinct social expectations in that arena, even if privately you behaved however you pleased; so perhaps to a degree they were already trained to respond a certain way, especially in regards to working with an authority figure. How could he be sure at that point which reactions were actually genuine, outside of his own opinion?
I'm sure the scientists back then thought: "oh yeah. Let me just ring up a couple people from Samoa to bop around in here for the experiment. I'll get on that!"
It would’ve been interesting if he’d done the experiment on people who’d been diagnosed as sociopaths and those who hadn’t; people who’d been incarcerated vs. law-abiding citizens.
I haven't seen anyone address this but religious imagery being used to test emotions wouldn't work during this time period. This was a time when it was less acceptable to be critical of or dislike christianity so if test subjects did feel negatively about it they would probably keep their mouths shut about it. Am I misjudging this or is this a good point to bring up?
It's interesting that this experiment concluded that men typically gave more expressive reactions, even though women are generally considered to be more emotional.
Please never stop telling us what your weather is like! I am from a currently sunny part of Western Canada and I always look forward to that cheerful ending 😊
Just got back from disregarding your advice about the Hautkrackheiten. That is some pretty sound advice, it definitely checks out. But can you imagine living during a time, when just about everything in the world, hasn’t been properly studied. Like literally everything, or is it literally nothing? And especially during a time when safety and regulations was kinda of a wrench in the spokes when it came to science.
@@daviddavidson2357 Yes, it’s almost like people have a greater access to information, greater numbers of platforms to express their opinions, and greater ability to connect with people who share those opinions to have a greater voice. Also, the sit down and shut up model of invalidating large swathes of society isn’t working as well for those in power. So, now we have more opinions to consider and more crazies finding other crazies to validate their nonsensical hypotheses (like flat Earthers, anti-vaxxers, and other conspiracy theory nuts).
I’d focus on the more positive spin- we’re always getting better at separating the wheat from the chaff, the less ethical and lower quality studies from the ones worth our time.
I had to look this up after you said it & learned that "Homely" means the exact opposite of what it means in the USA. Here, homely means ugly & unattractive & the meaning you meant would be "comely" or "cozy."
It seems pretty much only America uses 'homely' to describe someone as plain or even unattractive. I can't ever imagine using 'homey/homy' to describe a comfy surrounding.
It's funny plainly, you say that this experiment set the background for obedience to authority studies as it included subtle emotional manipulation and torture. I call this whole situation the same as what my Da' put me through growing up: shame, manipulation, humiliation when sharing feelings. Sorry if this comment is off, just been mulling through the sentence you made about the study and it being low level torture when the specific telling of secrets and how the study PIs went about it feels too close to home in the crappy childhood feelings.
I really identified with the comment about some of the subjects smiling at negatively stimuli throwing off the results. My natural reaction to high stress situations is a wide smile.
When you set up a situation to cause it to occur when you want versus the same situation happening naturally, you have already influenced the results you're going to get, thus rendering the results questionable at best. Whatever you find may be of use in deciding more concisely what you want to study, and perhaps show you ways of how to better obtain the natural situation, but otherwise it's a useless pursuit which will only mislead you.
No one ever takes those of us who are hard of hearing into account. I have to stare at mouths, whether I want to or not. I'd prefer eye contact at all times, however I do not have that luxury. It has nothing to do with my psychology, my gender, my age... It's just what I have to rely upon first. Everything is based upon the hearing, sighted, physically "normal." Imagine having cerebral palsy, or autism, and trying to navigate the world of facial expressions. It's a good thing that there are expanded minds out there, otherwise those of the rest of us wouldn't matter at all, would we?
@@globalwarmhugs7741 No, we don't. We should adapt ourselves to the norm, not force the norm to lower their standards for us. Autists like myself have been doing this since time immemorial.
@@MrJoeyWheeler well as an autist some autists are able to adapt and some literally cant and I am one of the ones who cant fit into society without accomodations. Everyone is different man and I'm glad u r navigating the world well but not all autistic people function the same
@@MrJoeyWheeler I will never be able to adapt to the norm of looking people in the eye when they speak to me. You're being ablest, if you believe that we should adapt, rather than thrive as we are.
I'm autistic and was given a bonus lesson on school to learn to read expressions, where I was given examples so simplistic that it made things really damn difficult. These were bad emojis, not real expressions. It was such a useless lesson that I am sure could never have done what it was meant to. But I never needed it as I had no issue reading emotions. That has stuck with me though as a vivid memory, and made me CERTAIN that expressions were universal to all humans. That idea that they are not, that's now left me quite frustrated. I'm 32 years old now and it is only now that anyone has ever implied that expressions do not obey hard coded rules. Expressions are something that we don't just not know much about, but are apparantly something surrounded with misinformation. This cruel experiment might have seemed like a waste of time learning what we already knew, but sadly not so. Because I learned something new from this. But it is so aggravating because I know I can read emotions specifically because I memorised each expression. I learned the universal signs. And now I'm told that's wrong. So, what does that mean? Can regular people still tell what others are feeling even when they give "wrong" expressions? Do I need to learn facial expression sets like languages? I really thought I understood it, and while some people make faces that goe against what I knew, I always put the blame on them, that they were just bad at emoting when they smiled while sad. Or that this was an attempt to force themselves away from how they really feel. Because there were quite a few people who's crying looked like laughter. I feel like I have to just completely discard all the confidence I had in my ability to read faces.
Yes people can tell to some degree what people are feeling even if they have "wrong" expressions. Theres no "wrong" expressions. They may be mixed emotions, or be nuanced. People can tell due to mirror neurons being activated in the observer. Do you have issues with not having empathy? I know this can be an issue with asd. Serious question, I'm interested. Thanks in advance. And wonder if you have any emotional neglect in childhood. We need mirroring and validation to know who we are, and to know "the other" in response. A kind of feedback loop. Interestingly crying, and laughter, are both stress relief responses. Not suprised they look similar sometimes.
That experiment pointed at why lots of modern psychologists fail today : that need to classify, and place people in "boxes". They brush aside important things like.. your personality.. once they figured out where they think you should fit after only a few questions.
There is one interesting thing about expressions though, sometimes when people witness disturbing events they can sometimes just have no reaction at all and seem to be perfectly okay with what's happening in front of them, when the truth is just that it's so shocking for them that their brain straight up struggles to come to terms with what they're seeing in that moment.
I had my jaw pop out of place a couple years ago and it was one of the most unbearable thing because it effected how I could show expressions on one side of my face, my trigeminal nerve was being pinched and besides that being extremely uncomfortable. It made that side of my face muscles twitch and tremble anytime I tried to activate my muscles in my face and Holly shit it drove me crazy. It really impacted me because of how uncomfortable it made me. I eventually had to bug the Dr. Enough to get a specialist exam my jaw with imaging and they had to inject numbing stuff and relaxers into the inside of my cheek and around my ear, then a Dr. With gloves on hand to put his foot on me and grab my jaw and use all of his force to manually manipulate my jaw back into it's correct socket point and without my trigeminal nerve being pinched. It was crazy how much force it took to snap my jaw back into place. (I hope I only ever had to go through that, that time, because that was one too many times for my liking!) It sucked, especially because it took so long to get the Dr. to treat my jaw. It's crazy how long it can be for Dr's to be willing to image something or do a certain test, I felt like you had to have like a clear broken arm or something for them to be willing to listen and actually find answers to their patients.. I'm just glad that readjustment procedure was done. I was going crazy before it.
Only just discovered your channel , love your story telling method and easy to understand diagrams etc , I’ve subscribed and have enjoyed the content thank you for something a bit different
So, of course I went right out and looked at _Atlas der Hautkrankheiten_ and I thought it was absolutely fascinating. But then, I have photographs of my gallbladder both in situ and in the process of being removed. The surgeon, who apparently recognized a kindred spirit, asked me if I wanted pictures. I said, "Heck, yes!" When I was being discharged I asked the nurse to please get the pictures the surgeon had promised and she looked at me like I had grown a supernumerary head.
The question I'm not hearing an answer to is were the frogs in the bucket alive. if we're talking about the cruelty of the rat situation, he either fried during or killed a lot of frogs ahead of time. And then there's the argument on killing a domestic animal in an experiment as opposed to a wild one. Unless he caught a bunch of wild rats, those would have been domestic and technically different from the ones considered vermin.
I was most affected by my self-imposed task of pausing, sitting in the dark and attempting to multiply 281 X 285 in my head without writing anything down. It took FIVE excruciating minutes. I landed on 78,885. That’s wrong. The RAT drama was welcome relief from my mental exertion and subsequent failure.
Thank you for making this, I didn't know of this experiment until now. One thing I would suggest is that you read Emotions Revealed by Paul Ekman, as he has proved that truly felt emotions ARE in fact universal, unlike what you state at the end of this video. Response to stimuli of course isn't universal, nor are social expressions, which I suspect wasn't seperated from felt emotion in this study, hence the confusion.
you know, if your questionable experiment reveals the existence of another, questionable field of study or experiment, you would think someone would start going "hmm, this doesnt seem right"
"Don't forget these people were from the 1920s and would probably have had a greater shock value." Ah yes, back in the days before 10-year-olds were looking at porn.
Oh a facial expression experiment, how horrific can that be? "They were asked to behead a rat" Its not even 1 minute in and we're already beheading friends.
Really, the biggest issue i see is that they can see their faces but the subjects weren't asked what they were feeling at the time. Which means the expressions can't be properly matched with emotions.
I come here for the South London weather report. Great reporting! Jokes aside, these are exactly the kind of videos I would have watched as a child had RUclips been around back then. I read lots of books on gnarly science stuff. Great to see these stories told so well.
Any suggestions for future dark side videos let me know 👇
Ball show...I'm passionate about stories..even more the mistakes caused by us..I have one is a disaster that happened in Brazil.. Joelma Building was one of the biggest disasters of the 70's..!
What about a comparison between the events of Shutter Island and real life psychiatry? How much is dramatic licence and how much is real ? Could be linked to your excellent video on lobotomies.
Or the sale / use of radioactive materials in foodstuffs
how about a video covering the horrible experiments and "treatments" carried out on autistics? it's genuinely awful
I highly recommend John Colapinto's book, "As Nature Made Him" which tells the story of David Reimer (one half of a set of identical twin boys) who was born male, but then sexually reassigned and raised as female...basically putting to the test whether sexual identity is inborn (Nature), or learned (Nurture).
A very, very sobering read indeed.
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/As_Nature_Made_Him
Monkey drg experiment, wait that was done already
"People are disturbed when forced to look at/do horrifying shit."
Hmm. Yes. This floor is made of floor.
It's a floory floor. The kind of floory floor that is.... floory.
Definitely not a floored theory.
how long do you think that was widely known though?
And water is wet!
People die when they are killed.
The fact he gave up on the joke section after only two people because the second person shrugged it off says everything you need to know about this guy.
"I'll show this fucking guy... TED GO FIND SOME RATS"
Does that mean the Monty Python sketch about the universal joke was in part making fun of this guy then?
I'm sure he was always the life of the party! =)
@Itoki Norishiba bro you good?
@Itoki Norishiba yum
I think the worst part is that he already had the answer earlier, there are no universal emotions. That result is very interesting on its own but he really wanted a different answer.
Very true
Yes. I kept thinking "This is pointless" towards the end, and I wondered if he just wished the expressions were more shocking.
Maybe that was the case with this one guy in particular, but generally in science the goal is to test a hypothesis as much as possible with repeated experiments to make sure that previous results weren't a fluke of some sort. This is especially true if you find ways to shrink the margin of error from previous experiments (like by expanding and diversifying your sample size). What should have stopped this man was the cruel nature of his experimental design - although clearly he didn't have a problem with that since he just made the second experiment even crueler.
@@imaspoon4522 morbid curiosity. He probably also enjoyed the authority. Making people do things they didn't want to do. Also interesting are the couple of cases where they refused to kill the rat and he didn't do it himself. He didn't disclose why. I imagine those people defied his authority to an extent where he deemed it to be unworthy to insist on it, and he didn't like that (the "defeat"). I think it's peculiar that he left it out.
Sadly, we no longer live in world where the definition of "science" means what it used to. It's been weaponized & changed and now politicians & the media throw it around just as they use & abuse statistics to prop up whatever myth or legend they're attempting to support (most often involving the pharma companies, as they dump billions into advertising into the "news" & legislation~ just last year alone, paid out over $140 billion in lobbying towards our congressional members~ is it ANY wonder why our kids are put on average 4-9 psychotropic meds after the *FIRST* visit to a psychologist, most of which all come with "Black Box" warnings for those under the age of 18?). Do we REALLY have a "Mental Health Crisis" in America, or do we have leadership problems, societal problems & educational problems?
The wild thing about these is they're almost always badly designed and yield no useful results. These universities would give these guys money to do anything. I get the feeling they didn't even have to submit a detailed proposal, they just had to say: I need money to do an experiment and they'd get it!
Nailed it precisely
Guess what - this is how it is in Germany to this very day. It is all to discretion by the Professor of the chair. (Of course not if you need vast external money)
Meanwhile other scientists today are struggling to get money for necessary research...
well the key was if you were a white man 😂
Thanks to this mismanagement, we don't have state institutions now
I love how today we talk about the psychology of the psychologists doing these experiments; bet they'd never expect that 😅
True, they would never assume we would be looking more into them
They thought they would be revered 😂
Funny, if they actually new much of anything about the human mind or their field, they'd expect it, since the field is overwhelmingly made up of incredibly unhinged people, often lacking heavily in the morality department, making them some of the most interesting people to study in the pursuit of the field. I've had the displeasure of personally meeting many people that work in mental health fields, whether that be more general psychology or more focused specialties, whether as researchers or those that deal with patients in a "positive" (pretty much never, in reality) way, and only a couple were remotely sane people with anything resembling a moral compass and that didn't abuse the power they had over others.
I guess, despite studying psychology, they all lack self awareness.
@@Sin_Alder *knew
I'd say the percentage of psychopathic personalities inside the field of psychology is greater than any other scientific field. Now that would be an interesting study.
That would be an incredibly boring and pointless study.
@@bajjajajbajjjajaj6473 oh yeah? Like the one this video is about? How so?
@@bajjajajbajjjajaj6473 how? Psychopaths shouldn't be trying to help people. They shouldn't have that much control over vulnerable people.
There was a study that found that a large amount of corporate leadership show traits of sociopathy.
There's studies that show people who have traits of ASPD (which means not all the subjects have an offical disgnosis) are more present in buisness & law enforcement, with some in journalism, civil service, or as chefs. Although, according to prison rates a good portion of re-offenders display ASPD traits/have been diagnosed with ASPD, which is something to consider when judging their careers. I suppose it also depends on the amount of therapy they've had and their range of functionality.
I will say: your view of people with ASPD is closed-minded and very hollywood influenced. Despite arguments, there are treatment options for people with ASPD.
The responses to the rat execution would be very different today. Think about it for a minute. This was in the 1920s and it would be quite likely that a good number of the subjects would have grown up on a farm (rats would be considered vermin to be disposed of), where they would have at the least, watched or taken part in the butchering of animals for food. Also if they were from a rural area there could have been hunting as well. The point I'm making is that asking modern group of test subjects to behead a live rat would more than likely produce a major difference of outcome.
Just an admittedly, weird thought I had. Great video man. You always present well researched material in a way that is very educational without being boring, and in a non-sensationalist or dramatic way. Have a great week sir. Looking forward to the next video.
and also the condition of animals was different back there
I didn't grow up rurally but I've been helping some local people with pest control, and I also do taxidermy. I'd question if there wasn't a way to do this experiment without wasting a life and would probably refuse to do it if the rat wasn't a wild rat, but I wouldn't flinch at the actual process.
Beheading is one of the most ethical ways of culling if you know what you're doing, I do it often enough with animals that got into traps in a weird way (so they didn't die, but they were stuck). After the first couple times you do it you get used to it, as with anything else
And also consider how Unphased we would be seeing photos of sexual acts… pornography has changed our perspective on bodies
@@37thousand Very good point.
Dude this exact thing proves that it’s so hard to find concrete results when nature And nurture effect our reactions.
We learned about this in my research methods in psych class when discussing ethics in research. I couldn't believe it was a real thing
Sadly it was
Makes me wonder how this research would be done today. There must be way to keep it ethical and ask same questions for research to answer right?
@@matrixfull It would be done in secret
@@matrixfull Do the same experiment but leave out the electric shocks, psychological manipulation and rat decapitation, and maybe be a bit more descriptive to the test subject of the kinds of things that are going to happen, so at least there’s informed consent. The rest is mostly harmless and you can still capture a wide range of emotional responses while leaving out the most distressing/ethically questionable parts of the experiment.
@@matrixfull It would be ethical but still useless as it is a psychology experiment, not the greatest track record even in understanding what science is about, to put it mildly lol
I’ve always loved how humans often can tell so much just by how they perceive things.
My favorite example is talked about by Austin McConell in one of his videos, but the shot version is this;
The was an artist named Jean-François Millet, and during his time he was deemed a failed artist . Now we celebrate his amazing paintings. The most famous wound have to be The Angelus; it shows a man and a woman praying over food, in a box they’ve buried (religious thing). This painting was later bought by Salvador Dali; another famous painter. Dali always had a feeling something wasn’t right about the picture. He didn’t think they were praying over food, but something else. They ended up using X-rays to see what’s under the paint, and it shows a child sized casket. Originally the two people praying were actually just morning the loss of a child. It’s unknown why Millet didn’t keep the casket, and later changed it to something less morbid. He was known to draw pictures that he remembered as a kid; maybe this painting was too real for him, or maybe it was so it’d sell better. Either way, we won’t know; what we do know is The Angelus really is a true piece of art that tells two different stories.
Saw that one worth watching
I remember studying that in art history. Brilliant paintings.
The theory was his friend told him it was too morbid, so he painted over it.
@@WobblesandBean it might be the story, but I think the best stories are the ones that don’t have an ending. Leaves the viewer to interpret things completely differently.
@@Just1Nora indeed it is. True emotion is shown in it. Something so real that someone else could feel the emotion did not match the setting. Truly amazing.
12 human females, 12 human males, and 1 human male child-OK WHO THE FUCK AUTHORIZED THIS STUDY?!
Apparently not a good review board
Lmaoo 😂
Nowadays they'd experiment on the kids themselves
@@marcus8710 and THAT will get you immediately get you blacklisted by today's various ethics boards on the basis of informed consent as children can NOT give proper informed consent oh and the 'do no harm' principle
What about giving children, say, puberty blockers or other non-aspirin drugs without telling the parents?
This experiment is so deeply flawed, right down to the fact that it kind of half-heartedly assumes that a single stimulus would produce the same emotional reaction in people with different backgrounds.
Well a Nazi flag makes everyone pissed regardless of who they are sooooo
The key of science is not to assume the simplest answer is true. What if he did find a universal expression?
And yet most people think they know what others are thinking and presume thier innocence or guilt within seconds.
@@kilbert666 Carney did not. The Individual differences in facial expressions are so wide that he could not find a single universal expression. It was all a waste.
Right but also wouldn’t it have been smarter to NOT tell them they are looking for their facial expressions? I feel like KNOWING you are being recorded and watched SPECIFICALLY for your facial expressions would make you more aware of your own expressions wouldn’t it??
I have a bachelors of science in psychology and it's freaking weird that we never learned about this. We learned about BF Skinner and Pavlov every 20 minutes but this? We definitely should've!
It’s a fascinating part of experiment science history as he was far ahead of milgram (although I’m not sure how great that is!)
Now imagine the same experiment, but this time we use modern 3D facial tracking software
I have a BS in Anthro and we learned all about this, Stanford Prison Experiment, etc. I’m not sure why they wouldn’t be discussed in Psych. But I had to pass a community ethics board before I could do my senior thesis.
that’s crazy to hear. i learned about this in HS, but i didn’t go to public school. i thought this was so interesting in class
@@RustyClumps in my psych classes we learned about facial expression in general being universal but never to this extent 😭 but mine taught many unethical experiments like the monkey and cloth wire, stanford etc
I think at least the main idea of the experiment was interesting; it would honestly be super neat to see something similar done (more ethically, and) with samples across different cultures, and perhaps different age groups as well
Great post
It doesn’t even need to be with humans exclusively since, as mentioned for background, Charles Darwin did some probing of the subject outside the explicit context of psychology. I also think you’d need to tweak the main idea during its reimplementation in human studies to produce something meaningful.
React channels. Not a new idea but the current iteration of such.
Requirements for "more ethical" studies is why behavioral science has been stagnant and therefore largely irrelevant for decades.
Ethic shmethic; Dr Frankenstein's findings would be in its Third Edition. 200+ years on the Best Seller's List.
You know, a study like this wouldn’t need to be done today, because we take so much authentic video of our lives, our reactions to things, etc. We could just study all of that.
That's why we're called the era of information. almost every day, huge amount of data is submitted to the internet nonstop.
All the data in the world is useless if you can't parse it efficiently
Yeah but if people didn't think like this back then, we probably wouldn't have the tech for it now, which i find very interesting 🤔
No shit
Most of that footage shows false feelings as they're putting on a show for the likes. We exaggerate our emotions nowadays, already went to far the other way.
Faces are utterly fascinating. A fall onto a concrete floor i had when i was 4 made me unable to focus on the face as a whole for a while, until i got treatment, and looking back it was so disconnecting
Oh that's cool. I'm completely face blind and have been since I was born as near as anyone can tell. BUT sometimes when I get high I think I can get info from it? But maybe I'm just high and imagining it? Lol. I find that a very disorienting experience.
@@wilhelmdietrich8474 That's interesting! I wonder if whatever drugs you're taking somehow stimulate your amygdala in a way that makes it work again?
@@SwizzleDrizzl hes speaking of weed which all it does is cause the whole surface of the brain to activate at once and stay active for about 45 minutes. So theres a high chance high thc and cbd weeds do activate that part of his brain. Not on purepose mind you but it still activates everything a little bit. Its also why anxiety rises with weed the brain thinks all the activation is due to environmental changes not internal chemcial changes. Which makes you abrehensive of your environment.
@@Mystickrage the hell do you mean “not on purpose?” It is a chemical that affects the brain in a certain way, it doesn’t do it by accident you dolt
@@bajjajajbajjjajaj6473 it does it cause its lucky enough to do it. Its not on purpose cause it wasnt the desired result its just a result you dolt.
No matter the area, there's always ONE that has to take research off the rails! Seen a lot in psychology.
Sadly true
@marietreti huh
The first experiment made me think of every visit to the optometrist. "I'm going to shoot a blast of air into your eye, please try not to blink or move your eye". Well FFS, don't tell them that you're studying their facial expressions and then expect them to respond genuinely.
I always end up feeling torn over these kinds of studies. The basic idea is actually really fascinating and could possibly provide some insight into human nature/emotions, but it's strays from a scientific research study into straight up S&M.
Now I'm picturing S&M porn being included in the "sexual stimuli" section...
It's not even science at all
@@the57bears 🤣🤣🤣
@@nealkelly9757 these things usually start out with at very least neutral intentions. It leaves the realm of science when it stops being about truly trying to answer a question or gain insight into something and goes into the territory of how far things can be pushed before someone else pushes back.
S&M? Do you mean sadism? S&M is consensual.
Individuals make individual expressions?! WHOA. I had no idea.
I would have rated this higher, maybe an 8. He outright stated he wanted to invoke the most anxiety and disturb the subjects of his experiments... really seems like he just enjoyed it, I cant fathom what they were even trying to achieve with all this
The latter experiment was (not so?) inadvertently a model of 'how to induce trauma 101':
1. Place subject into submissive position, from which they physically or psychologically feel unable to escape;
2. Establish dominance over them - preferably convince them you hold the power of life & death;
3. Alternate unpredictably between provoking negative emotion (pain, disgust, guilt, shame, etc), in your subject, and positive emotion.
Ta-dah!! You've trauma-bonded your subject to you, & probably induced a post-traumatic condition too.
The fact that this guy inadvertently designed an experiment which 'accidentally' mirrored now-commonly-recognised interpersonal abuse patterns probably says much more about his personal life than it ever said about human facial expressions.
THIS.
Why does this feel like the outline of every relationship I've ever experienced?
Parents, lovers, friends, family, coworkers... everybody tries to one up you or is afraid of someone coming along that will one up them. That's how the US is designed -- capitalize on someone's weakness at all times or lose. So that's everybody checking the 1 box.
Coworkers compete for who can do the most/best work. Neighbors compete over who's got the biggest wallet. Your whole family tree *is* dominance; grandparents told your parents what to do just like your parents tell you what to do. There's point 2.
Parents often have to hide the truth from their child and often really suck at doing so, leading to outburts of anger that can easily lead to the child feeling guilty or shamed, and they're also the source of your first positive emotions, as well. There's 3.
Ta-da! You've explained why I'm introverted and generally hate people. People = trauma.
@@debesys6306 I’m very concerned about @Jim.
@@debesys6306 i think jim needs therapy, i’m worried
Not really, all it says about him is he was a scientist during a time with less knowledge and less regulation.... that's it.
The main problems with this study (and many psychology studies) were the limited sample size, sample nature (university undergraduates), and the questionable ethics at best. Couple this with tendency to torture the data and you have a fine mess.
The beheading of the rats, rather nasty bit of work, was poorly thought out as many of the study subjects may not have killed an animal ever. Thus, they would not be very good at and would likely be a bit squeamish.
Fudging is human. Fudging psychiatric data is widespread. It's basically counting symptoms without knowing the underlying principle. Not science unless you Digg deeper...which they can't because psychiatry attracts lower IQ people. It's thus mostly divination and spells.
I just wouldnt be able to do it, period
@@nrdesign1991 The bacon strips you had for breakfast died a much harder death. 100000 babies and toddlers are killed by their mothers every year in the US. They usually are killed many times over during their short lifetimes and when the murder is finalized..left in agony for days, sometimes. I think the experiment you abhor is minimal compared to humanoid misery.
@@808bigisland I know how cruel humans are. I just could not kill a living being myself.
@@nrdesign1991 Killing is exciting. I fish, spearfish and hunt wild pig with a spear. Spearfishing between Tigersharks is wild, grabbing taco from dark underwater caves 60f down.... You are so far removed from being homo sapiens sapiens...I put you in the category of domesticated humanoid. Again, the bacon you ate suffered enourmously for hours. My wild pig did not see it coming and I dispatched it in 5 secs.
Ofc I had to look up the skin disease book bc you told me not to. I’m impressed with how beautiful the illustrations are honestly. The first one that actually freaked me out was the breast cancer wowee
I just went and did that hahaha. They're not really gag inducing, just interesting. If they were real pictures I would have been disturbed.
Imagine if we brought some of these cruel scientists and make them study RUclips thumbnail facial expressions
Oddly in group therapy a couple of years ago we were told about a few universal emotions that most people can spot when looking at an image of a person having that emotion no matter from where in the world they are. This was done by also showing us images of people (sometimes the same person) expressing different emotions. This were much more modern images. It was also explained that the exact number of this emotions is still being discussed among those who research this as they are finding different results for a couple of them. So it seems to me like research in this is still active, hopefully in a much more ethical way.
“He ended the joke portion after the second test subject was neutral to the joke”
So the guy clearly didn’t have a backup job in comedy
Tough crowd
There's points at which I have to consider that this experiment was less interested in genuine science and more a byproduct of some kind of sadism.
In reference to the person who perceived facial expressions by imagining how it would make them feel: I'm an artist, and I often find myself making the same expression as the character that I'm drawing, which makes for some weird social situations. I swear, I'm not angry! My picture is!
Your pfp looks more scared to me then angry
@@mrmeep2047 it's fanart of lapis from Steven universe, I believe, and she's definitely angry
Video suggestion: US Army’s unlawful two decade long germ warfare “experiments” on the public around the country, Headquartered mainly at “Fort Detrick” carried out by special operations division beginning in 1950 “Operation Seaspray” among other operations, alarming stuff.
Thanks for the suggestion
@annacolleen Brevard Co. FL( home of Kennedy Space Center, a Cruise/Cargo port & 2 Air force bases) is a hotspot for cancer... 60 years of jet, marine and rocket fuel in the water and land. Not to mention the 2 MILLION TONS of 70 YEAR OLD SEWAGE THAT FLOODED THE RIVER CITY OF TITUSVILLE.
They probably lost some valuable data when they threw out any photos that showed no "notable" reactions, because micro expressions are really important. I guess the photo quality probably prevented them from reading those at all though.
Couple of things:
'Stimuli' is a plural term. The singular is 'stimulus'.
The obedience thing: very good spot!
All-in-all, as a psychologist myself, I cannot otherwise fault this particular episode ... it is bloody accurate, and highlights the need for ethics codes.
Well done, sir. 👍👍👍
It’s always such a treat to learn about things that I had no idea about. Thank you.
Thank you
Hey John, just a note about an error some British youtubers commonly make. Many states in the US have their own university, which they'll call X State Uni or Uni of X. They're all unique, so you do have to say the state's name as part of the university's name. Just saying State University isn't actually the name of the uni.
Also, He was talking about The Ohio State which just has to be different anyway.
georgia state university (gsu) is very very different from university of georgia (uga)
@@Duuuckiiee omg just like Arizona state university (asu), university of Arizona (u of a), northern Arizona university (nau) and grand canyon university (gcu) why are states like this lmao that's 4 different universities alone in Arizona, not including community College and any other universities idk about
@@sydneyice Because like prisons universities are insanely profitable and can only contain so many people.
I think every state has a state college doesn’t it? Lol I’m from PA and growing up it took me awhile to realize that Penn State was Pennsylvania State University
While I love this series, I feel like the smoke effects over the results and the super edited images (to the point of deep fry) really cheapen it. I honestly believe the raw images would speak for themselves in the context of these experiments. Trust me, it's disturbing enough as it is.
The constant gonging in the second half was also incredibly distracting and frankly annoying
In fairness, the deep fry is probably original. If he’s pulling images from various sources, some are probably digitised from copies-of-copies.
this is a very important critique and we should all pay attention to the drastically important statement on the quality us consumers expect out of youtube content
@@m87.photovideo
Excellent satire, right there.
@@MrNavyman53
First World problems.
If a scientist electrocutes me by surprise, we're going to discover their facial reactions to fear and pain.
hahahha yeah
yes
The rats disagree, they rate this 9/10. Neither have they consented to the experiment nor did they have their facial expressions recorded, so according to the rats, the experiment was just a waste of life.
You have to wonder who allowed and/or funded some of these projects. Their conclusions are pretty obvious and basically equivalent to to "water is wet".
Since all participants knew that their facial expressions were being examined, the couldn't have been behaving naturally. They must have been acting to a certain degree. It rendered the whole thing useless.
Would I be that guy if I pointed out that the image attributed as “Bouguereau’s Birth of Venus” is Botticelli’s Birth of Venus?
No. This is a good thing to point out.
Thank you for pointing this out!
I was also going to be that guy, so
A 'that guy' convention of history scholars, how splendid.
@@skylined5534 Isn't that pretty much what the youtube comments section is?
8:28 quick correction, the image you had put on screen is Botticelli's Birth of Venus, not Bouguereau's. While its not an insanely important detail, i feel like its worth mentioning that Bougeureau's is generally perceived as being more sultry than Botticelli's
What a Saturday! Techmoan followed by Plainly Difficult. Doesn’t get better than this !
Landis’s experiment has an obvious flaw that would be difficult though not impossible to eliminate. He’s introduced a bias into the proceedings before any of the “stimuli” have started simply by prefacing the events with an introduction. Even an exhortation ‘not to show emotion’ has inserted a change into thought processes and you aren’t getting a true natural response.
I guess the only way to partially get round this is to test for something else and introduce the experiment as something else then perhaps insert the ‘true’ parameters at some stage during the phoney test? But I suppose this would also potentially have some ethical implications as well???
Regardless it’s fascinating stuff. Thank you John.
It's kinda interesting to see how many Plainly Difficult viewers are Techmoan viewers and visa versa.
Just watched Techmoan and PD one after another too.
There is a psychological study to be made here.
@@Damien.D 😂😂🤣
I think a video on Hisashi Ouchi would fit really well in this series as he was kept alive for months despite being is constant agonizing pain due to radiation damage.
That's already been done, as part of a video on the Tokaimura Criticality. Also, not sure if you're aware, but Ouchi was only kept alive because his family refused to sign a Do Not Resuscitate order against medical advice, not to be used as a medical Guinea pig.
@@thomasoates3003 I didn't even realize he already had a video I must've missed it. and yeah I know but it's interesting all the same
@@J-aimeFaust Just checking. The video is certainly worth a watch.
His family included young children and his wife. In the one video mentioned, the narrator might have gone into "hang in there / gambare / perseverance" culture in Japan. Plus, back then, and even now for the most part, the fathers in a family are the breadwinners. A single mother might have to rely on herself and/or possibly her parents. I actually wonder how the relationship was with her in-laws.
A man named Ouchi being kept in constant agony, ain't that a bit of sick irony?
I zoned out a little bit, so they MAY have mentioned this; but in that facial expression test, you’d need people from varying cultural backgrounds. A lot of the faces we make are learned through our upbringing and the society we live in. Yes, many expressions like smiling are natural. But I think for more abstract facial expressions, someone from rural Bulgaria might make a slightly different different face for disgust than say an islander from Samoa.
That's an excellent point. I wondered something similar about the difference in reaction between genders since at the time there would presumably have been pretty distinct social expectations in that arena, even if privately you behaved however you pleased; so perhaps to a degree they were already trained to respond a certain way, especially in regards to working with an authority figure. How could he be sure at that point which reactions were actually genuine, outside of his own opinion?
@@rachelrabbbit2553 Fantastic insight. I hadn’t considered that.
This was in 1924. They thought that people from other cultures and other ethical backgrounds were inferior.
@@deniseb.4656 😂
I'm sure the scientists back then thought: "oh yeah. Let me just ring up a couple people from Samoa to bop around in here for the experiment. I'll get on that!"
It would’ve been interesting if he’d done the experiment on people who’d been diagnosed as sociopaths and those who hadn’t; people who’d been incarcerated vs. law-abiding citizens.
I haven't seen anyone address this but religious imagery being used to test emotions wouldn't work during this time period. This was a time when it was less acceptable to be critical of or dislike christianity so if test subjects did feel negatively about it they would probably keep their mouths shut about it.
Am I misjudging this or is this a good point to bring up?
It would be a regional issue
Okay heathen
They could use them, but they'd need to interview the people about their religious beliefs or lack thereof.
It's interesting that this experiment concluded that men typically gave more expressive reactions, even though women are generally considered to be more emotional.
Expressive isn't quite the same as emotional
Are they? Always thought woman were known to be much more mature emotionally?
Please never stop telling us what your weather is like! I am from a currently sunny part of Western Canada and I always look forward to that cheerful ending 😊
I’ll try not to! Glad you’ve got some sun!
Agreed, it’s such a nice way to end videos, especially ones that cover topics like this one!
"...aged like a fine one pint bottle of milk." I'm going to have to try to remember that.
try and work it into a sentence
Just got back from disregarding your advice about the Hautkrackheiten. That is some pretty sound advice, it definitely checks out.
But can you imagine living during a time, when just about everything in the world, hasn’t been properly studied. Like literally everything, or is it literally nothing? And especially during a time when safety and regulations was kinda of a wrench in the spokes when it came to science.
Hautkrankheiten nicht Hautkrackheiten
bruh i'm autistic 💀 i wouldn't be able to describe the faces
THATS WHAT IM FUCKING SAYING I have to force facial expressions so I have like a 5 second delay 💀
They express expressions of expressiveness.
This study was a total success :/
@@fmh_bazinga the scientists would've told you not to force anything so forcing it would have compromised the expirement
@@bellaknightR597did you not read, complete child?
GOOGLE AUTISTIC MASKING FFS
I'm surprised they bothered to do this before having a way of, you know, being able to take photos where you can actually see something.
New episode let’s go!!
My reaction too, great way to start my weekend!
Go where?
I just noticed an awful lot of topics in my college psych classes are very controversial nowadays. That was in the 90's, dang I'm old. 😶
Everything is contraversial nowadays
Same
@@daviddavidson2357 Yes, it’s almost like people have a greater access to information, greater numbers of platforms to express their opinions, and greater ability to connect with people who share those opinions to have a greater voice. Also, the sit down and shut up model of invalidating large swathes of society isn’t working as well for those in power.
So, now we have more opinions to consider and more crazies finding other crazies to validate their nonsensical hypotheses (like flat Earthers, anti-vaxxers, and other conspiracy theory nuts).
I’d focus on the more positive spin- we’re always getting better at separating the wheat from the chaff, the less ethical and lower quality studies from the ones worth our time.
Everything is controversial nowadays because millennials are the softest generation in history
I had to look this up after you said it & learned that "Homely" means the exact opposite of what it means in the USA. Here, homely means ugly & unattractive & the meaning you meant would be "comely" or "cozy."
When describing a person it means ugly or unattractive in the USA
I’m from NZ and I think of it as meaning unattractive, but I’ve also met people who use it like I would use the word ‘homey’.
It seems pretty much only America uses 'homely' to describe someone as plain or even unattractive.
I can't ever imagine using 'homey/homy' to describe a comfy surrounding.
So, one could say, this whole experiment was some twisted, roundabout way of answering the age old question, “ Ya like jazz?”
You like SMOOTH JAZZ?
Hurra! I love these longer, more in depth, videos.
Thank you
Perfect timing. I have physhcology exam on Thursday and this study might be asked
Happy days
It's funny plainly, you say that this experiment set the background for obedience to authority studies as it included subtle emotional manipulation and torture. I call this whole situation the same as what my Da' put me through growing up: shame, manipulation, humiliation when sharing feelings. Sorry if this comment is off, just been mulling through the sentence you made about the study and it being low level torture when the specific telling of secrets and how the study PIs went about it feels too close to home in the crappy childhood feelings.
Cool story tell it again
I had the same happen
@@wolfetteplays8894maybe they stole the story from you, you should report it
I really identified with the comment about some of the subjects smiling at negatively stimuli throwing off the results. My natural reaction to high stress situations is a wide smile.
When science gets dark, it gets Hella dark 💀
Oh yes
Oh 20th century psychology and physiology, you knew nothing yet traumatized so many. Gone but certainly not forgotten...
When you set up a situation to cause it to occur when you want versus the same situation happening naturally, you have already influenced the results you're going to get, thus rendering the results questionable at best. Whatever you find may be of use in deciding more concisely what you want to study, and perhaps show you ways of how to better obtain the natural situation, but otherwise it's a useless pursuit which will only mislead you.
Did he have body guards for the second bucket experiment? Can't imagine someone not socking him for shocking them
Theyre getting paid and asked to be there lmfao
@@TheDsRequiem very good island boy. What does that have to do with them not being told they will be electrocuted?
No one ever takes those of us who are hard of hearing into account. I have to stare at mouths, whether I want to or not. I'd prefer eye contact at all times, however I do not have that luxury. It has nothing to do with my psychology, my gender, my age... It's just what I have to rely upon first.
Everything is based upon the hearing, sighted, physically "normal."
Imagine having cerebral palsy, or autism, and trying to navigate the world of facial expressions. It's a good thing that there are expanded minds out there, otherwise those of the rest of us wouldn't matter at all, would we?
It's not about you
@@keithsj10 Actually those of us with different abilities do need to speak up and advocate for ourselves. Thank you for your opinion, though.
@@globalwarmhugs7741 No, we don't. We should adapt ourselves to the norm, not force the norm to lower their standards for us. Autists like myself have been doing this since time immemorial.
@@MrJoeyWheeler well as an autist some autists are able to adapt and some literally cant and I am one of the ones who cant fit into society without accomodations. Everyone is different man and I'm glad u r navigating the world well but not all autistic people function the same
@@MrJoeyWheeler I will never be able to adapt to the norm of looking people in the eye when they speak to me. You're being ablest, if you believe that we should adapt, rather than thrive as we are.
"This... is a bucket."
"Dear god..."
"There's more."
"NO!"
Thank you, I needed the levity
I'm autistic and was given a bonus lesson on school to learn to read expressions, where I was given examples so simplistic that it made things really damn difficult. These were bad emojis, not real expressions. It was such a useless lesson that I am sure could never have done what it was meant to. But I never needed it as I had no issue reading emotions. That has stuck with me though as a vivid memory, and made me CERTAIN that expressions were universal to all humans. That idea that they are not, that's now left me quite frustrated. I'm 32 years old now and it is only now that anyone has ever implied that expressions do not obey hard coded rules. Expressions are something that we don't just not know much about, but are apparantly something surrounded with misinformation. This cruel experiment might have seemed like a waste of time learning what we already knew, but sadly not so. Because I learned something new from this. But it is so aggravating because I know I can read emotions specifically because I memorised each expression. I learned the universal signs. And now I'm told that's wrong. So, what does that mean? Can regular people still tell what others are feeling even when they give "wrong" expressions? Do I need to learn facial expression sets like languages? I really thought I understood it, and while some people make faces that goe against what I knew, I always put the blame on them, that they were just bad at emoting when they smiled while sad. Or that this was an attempt to force themselves away from how they really feel. Because there were quite a few people who's crying looked like laughter.
I feel like I have to just completely discard all the confidence I had in my ability to read faces.
I thought something like this would be mentioned in the video
Yes people can tell to some degree what people are feeling even if they have "wrong" expressions. Theres no "wrong" expressions.
They may be mixed emotions, or be nuanced. People can tell due to mirror neurons being activated in the observer. Do you have issues with not having empathy? I know this can be an issue with asd. Serious question, I'm interested. Thanks in advance.
And wonder if you have any emotional neglect in childhood. We need mirroring and validation to know who we are, and to know "the other" in response. A kind of feedback loop. Interestingly crying, and laughter, are both stress relief responses. Not suprised they look similar sometimes.
Nah, the 16th test was deadass just a torture method. Imagine being forced to choose between either killing a rat, or getting shocked.
6:16 19 men from college. A very diverse group of subjects with a non existing placebo group, great science xD
I happened to stumble across your videos 3 days ago and I have been non-stop watching since then!! Absolutely amazing videos! Please keep it up! 🙌🙌
@rapheALtoid thankyou will do!
Ethically I’d say a five. The issue of using a child concerns me with regard to obtaining genuine and informed consent.
This was 20s no one cared
That experiment pointed at why lots of modern psychologists fail today : that need to classify, and place people in "boxes". They brush aside important things like.. your personality.. once they figured out where they think you should fit after only a few questions.
That Gong sound in quick succession is incredibly annoying in an infuriating way. Great video though
I once worked in a clock factory. I got tired of making faces. 😌
But at least you got to work with your hands.
@@rcknbob1 I was always being second guessed.
arkarkarkark
lmfao
I think that's the sort of job that would have me clock-watching all day.
There is one interesting thing about expressions though, sometimes when people witness disturbing events they can sometimes just have no reaction at all and seem to be perfectly okay with what's happening in front of them, when the truth is just that it's so shocking for them that their brain straight up struggles to come to terms with what they're seeing in that moment.
I had my jaw pop out of place a couple years ago and it was one of the most unbearable thing because it effected how I could show expressions on one side of my face, my trigeminal nerve was being pinched and besides that being extremely uncomfortable. It made that side of my face muscles twitch and tremble anytime I tried to activate my muscles in my face and Holly shit it drove me crazy. It really impacted me because of how uncomfortable it made me. I eventually had to bug the Dr. Enough to get a specialist exam my jaw with imaging and they had to inject numbing stuff and relaxers into the inside of my cheek and around my ear, then a Dr. With gloves on hand to put his foot on me and grab my jaw and use all of his force to manually manipulate my jaw back into it's correct socket point and without my trigeminal nerve being pinched. It was crazy how much force it took to snap my jaw back into place. (I hope I only ever had to go through that, that time, because that was one too many times for my liking!) It sucked, especially because it took so long to get the Dr. to treat my jaw. It's crazy how long it can be for Dr's to be willing to image something or do a certain test, I felt like you had to have like a clear broken arm or something for them to be willing to listen and actually find answers to their patients.. I'm just glad that readjustment procedure was done. I was going crazy before it.
You were affected, not effected. Regardless, I’m glad you found a resolution.
What ??
I'm afraid that if I had to be there, they would record me throwing the ammonia on experimenter face.
Not a bad move
I love your videos! They always are a great way for me to begin my day knowing something new 🤔
But not all of our emotions are on our face. We use our body to convey emotions too.
Some emotions are totally invisible. You should have seen my underwear after nearly getting t-boned by a cement truck. Pure, raw emotion right there.
Some people don't use anything because they feel nothing
Only just discovered your channel , love your story telling method and easy to understand diagrams etc , I’ve subscribed and have enjoyed the content thank you for something a bit different
So, of course I went right out and looked at _Atlas der Hautkrankheiten_ and I thought it was absolutely fascinating. But then, I have photographs of my gallbladder both in situ and in the process of being removed. The surgeon, who apparently recognized a kindred spirit, asked me if I wanted pictures. I said, "Heck, yes!" When I was being discharged I asked the nurse to please get the pictures the surgeon had promised and she looked at me like I had grown a supernumerary head.
The question I'm not hearing an answer to is were the frogs in the bucket alive. if we're talking about the cruelty of the rat situation, he either fried during or killed a lot of frogs ahead of time. And then there's the argument on killing a domestic animal in an experiment as opposed to a wild one. Unless he caught a bunch of wild rats, those would have been domestic and technically different from the ones considered vermin.
Both points about the poor frogs and rats also bothered me a lot.
@@skylined5534 the video said they smiled afterwards seeing the frogs so i’d imagine they were alive
I wouldn't trust any of the people who killed the poor rat without a second thought.
I was most affected by my self-imposed task of pausing, sitting in the dark and attempting to multiply 281 X 285 in my head without writing anything down. It took FIVE excruciating minutes. I landed on 78,885. That’s wrong.
The RAT drama was welcome relief from my mental exertion and subsequent failure.
It's 80085. Or...BOOBS. Was it intentional? Maybe to illicit a sexual response..? Fascinating stuff here, guys
Hopefully you have a life now and not so pathetic
Thank you for making this, I didn't know of this experiment until now. One thing I would suggest is that you read Emotions Revealed by Paul Ekman, as he has proved that truly felt emotions ARE in fact universal, unlike what you state at the end of this video. Response to stimuli of course isn't universal, nor are social expressions, which I suspect wasn't seperated from felt emotion in this study, hence the confusion.
you know, if your questionable experiment reveals the existence of another, questionable field of study or experiment, you would think someone would start going "hmm, this doesnt seem right"
If told to, "ignore cameras and act natural", I'd immediately do anything other than acting naturally. That's just too much pressure 😅
Excellent, John!!! Thank you!
"no discernible facial expression" is a kind of expression
This channel has the best supporting graphics on all of RUclips.
I love the dark side of science videos🔥
Thank you
Love your channel, great info every time
This isn’t facial expression, it’s reaction!
Isn't that what facial expressions are anyway? Reactions? Emotional people react strongly. People who aren't Emotional don't react at all
"Don't forget these people were from the 1920s and would probably have had a greater shock value." Ah yes, back in the days before 10-year-olds were looking at porn.
Who are you and how do you know about me.
jk, I saw messed up shit at the net in the 00's specially on 4chan, visiting that site just damaged me
Oh a facial expression experiment, how horrific can that be?
"They were asked to behead a rat"
Its not even 1 minute in and we're already beheading friends.
First time I hear this pronunciation of the word 'pedagogy', is it the British way? Thanks for the informative video!
why do all old black and white photos just make everything more creepy and unsettling?
I dunno maybe because it looks more unnatural
Interesting thank you. More of these type of programmes would be a good idea! 😁👍
Really, the biggest issue i see is that they can see their faces but the subjects weren't asked what they were feeling at the time. Which means the expressions can't be properly matched with emotions.
I come here for the South London weather report. Great reporting!
Jokes aside, these are exactly the kind of videos I would have watched as a child had RUclips been around back then. I read lots of books on gnarly science stuff. Great to see these stories told so well.