Putting the hand by the waist can be found in traditional Asian martial arts (0:48) and historical sources like 1800’s Western boxing books (1:32). It is done by pro UFC fighters (2:28), Muay Thai fighters (9:29), and boxers such as Mike Tyson (3:41), all before they knock people out. It is consciously espoused by sports combat experts, such as MMA champ and former bouncer Bas Ruten (6:30). The World Record holder for the most powerful punch recorded attained the record while putting his hand at the waist (5:15).
14:42 The "tapping" fighting, called "light contact" in many fighting sports, or simply the regular dojo sparring in Shotokan karate, is presumed to be viewed by referees and considered as an effective punch. Many times it is not, in fact the light contact looks basically useless even for teaching intentions, but could be useful if taught correctly. I am not trying to defend the light contact sparring because I do not like it, except if it is used to teach the kids that, in my opinion, should not involved to potentially dangerous fights, I am more try to explain why it exists.
My Mantis coach teaches the same idea...every movement has a combative, non-esoteric, purpose. Thanks for the documentation provided in this video, hopefully this will open up more minds to our style.
Excellent video. I've long said that you see traditional techniques like the bow stance & the horse stance in MMA matches, people just don't know what to look for. Traditional martial arts works 100%, it's the practitioner & the understanding that he or she has that makes the difference.
Great video, you illustrated your points well. Coming from a karate perspective here, what’s puzzlingly is the emphasis that seems to have been place on bringing the hand to the hip, especially because we can also look to modern combat sports to see the advantage of keeping your head guarded. It’s odd that we don’t find a functional guard in the kata. Personally, I think it’s the other way around. Hikite is used mostly for grabbing and controlling, alternatively as a loading motion. We do know that there was originally far more grappling in karate than what is typical today.
“What’s puzzling is the emphasis of bringing the hand to the hip” Most likely because bunkai happens/involves scenarios where the opponent is already closely engaged, the “meat” of what makes up combat. Thanks for the input.
@@theravenswoodacademy8796 fair enough. Already being closely engaged would also make gripping more relevant though. A grappling explanation also makes more sense for the arm being kept in place, rather than brought down for a split second and released. I think that we can agree that it isn’t an either/or here, it’s a position that was clearly both as a load and as a grip.
Hands on the waist are a process not the start, no one on in sparing starts with their hands on their waist in karate. THEY PUT THE DUKES UP. Waist postion is for when the punch is in flow esp. when there is no danger of come back. Mostly it is for arm locks and throws.
I've always thought it was because the traditional arts were rooted in weapons fighting arts. A lot of the traditional Kung Fu styles were based on sword and spear fighting movement mechanics. Where power was derived from the hips to execute a sword or spear thrust called a tsuki in the Japanese arts. So your thrusting hand was positioned near the hips like a coiled spring ready to propel your weapon forward quickly at the first instance an opening is available. When swords and spears were no longer used, the techniques were slightly modified to be applied to empty hand fighting but majority of the basic power generation mechanics remained the same.
The problem comes from Many Karate instructors who have NEVER been taught correctly. Point sparring and not understanding Kata are a couple of examples Good video. It’s funny and sad at the same time that many of the ‘old school’ instructors give the students the impression that hand on hip is a Static position. Karate stances are a snap shot /transitory point in movement. Oh well. It is very hard to change a person’s belief’s. Thank you for sharing
So the original knowledge got lost. Perhaps it is congruent with what they say about Oriental culture - the wise old man does not teach everything he knows to his discipline; he holds something back for himself. So when he dies, the wisdom he withheld - dies with him. Then when his disciple becomes the wise old man, he repeats the cycle.
My BJJ teacher was also a teacher of Goshin-Jitsu Karate and told me that the reason for the horse riding stance and other low wide stances (typical of Shotokan) was that at the beginning of a fight, one is fresh, but as the fight goes on, one gets tired and has the temptation to make his stance shallower. If you start the fight with a normal boxing stance, then as the fight prolongs, you get tempted to stand straight up as you get tired. Thus taking away any mobility. If you start at the beginning of the fight with the low wide stance, then as time goes on, your stance narrows to get closer to the ideal of a boxing stance as you get more tired. That was my understanding.
Glad you found it helpful. It is really poorly understood. I'm not even sure I did it justice in this video but it was the best I could do just talking.
I did MMA back in my twenties, and I can recall a few fights where I loaded up and got a KO/TKO. On the contrary, I can recall a guy who was the hardest hitter I’d fought that loaded up a lot, and people respected his power. This was a great video my guy. Almost felt as if I was in a real conversation with you. Good topic for discussion and made some excellent points. Subscribed. 🙏🏻
It really depends on what kind of opponent you're up against. For probing and countering probing attacks, a high guard position is better as it will offer a quicker guard response, but for power moves and blocking power moves, hands low will offer greater force. That being said, martial arts evolves like everything else, and new techniques beg for new responses. If you have fast reflexes and can sway dodge punches and kicks well, then lower hands can offer you a greater field of view when combating multiple opponents. The Philly Shell is hybrid and great for back-fisting from the lowered hand. At the end of the day, if you have a wide arsenal base and can switch between techniques at will, you'll be the better fighter. Fighting against different techniques is paramount in developing and evolving practical martial arts.
Isolation Training when doing forms and drills . Keeping in centerline and working one side at a time. Majority of everything is push and pull motions . This helps this process. When dealing with more than one the sharp elbow aids in offense / defense maneuvers.When there is trouble behind this trains for constant application on the elbow . There is also winding or reeling power as mentioned to suck in attacks . Also for grabbing ,grappling and controlling. This all begins from the first day of formal training at least in Kung Fu and Karate . While learning stances your upper body is isolated on both sides with both arms and hands chambered. Before ever teaching to throw a single blow you must do stance work and this is the norm. Horse Stance is fundamental and consists of this principle. Later punches and kicks are introduced and this chambering remains . Later turns and redirection involves this fixed elbow position. As with anything in life and especially classical martial arts there are several uses and techniques derived from a simple position.
I think it by the waist one it’s less expected to strike. Two it’s that classic contracting fist goes to the side then expanding when it punches out etc. It could also be pulling an opponents arm down. Arm breaks like in Karate blocks for example. It’s to create structure as well correct body alignment and if where talking forms then it’s all about that 💪🤜👍
For some strange reason people in muay thai or in boxing or MMA do the same, but they think that they don't do that.... And if you do, they report it as a mistake. The same for many other things.
Some are aware but yes, some definitely are not conscious that that is happening, even if only for a moment. To be fair the gesture was over-ritualized by some bad traditional martial arts teachers.
No they do not do the same, they have their hands up, also boxers mostly punch from their shoulder with a hip turn same with thais or MMA. The waist punch is only used when there is no danger of counter punch by the oppenant.
There is no perfect way to do it - if it's stupid, but it works, then it is not stupid. Same thing (dropped arm) can cause you to get KO'd. The same dropped arm can make you KO the opponent. Air Force pilots have this saying: "A good landing is the one you can walk away from." IMHO same goes for fighting. If you can walk away from the fight, it was a good fight. You don't know if you did it right or not until it's over. It's a constant learning process.
It's strange to me that humans need to logically rediscover a simple function of their bodies like this. I don't think my cat has ever need to think about any of the amazing stuff it does.
YES the name of the technique (TCMA and TJMA) for that hand to waist means, “pulling hand.” It’s mixing grappling in with striking. But, ALSO considering that almost every occurrence of actual combat back in the days… knives and other hidden weapons, including throwing sand, chemicals, poisons, coins, shaved objects were involved. You constantly check that off-hand to stop them from reaching back to their waist after you’ve bridged the distance gap. Only modern art that I’ve seen practice this overtly nowadays is Eskrima / Kali unfortunately Forms always exaggerate and lose context over time, unfortunately.
Thanks for putting this together. I agree with you mostly and glad folks are countering the generalized notions that are in the martial world today about the principle dynamics that apply in our practices. I would argue one point considering your statement "The really weird bogus theory of forcefully pulling back your arm to pivot the other arm around to hit harder not being how physics work". Actually it would seem that is exactly how physics works. I don't want to be assuming of your background or get into the theory or Rotation Dynamics but I would just suggest that Newton's 2nd Law of Rotation, Net Torque, Power and Momentum, Angular velocity -its acceleration and deceleration, opposing and complimentary forces, location of the mass around a fixed axis etc suggest entry velocity of energy around a central axis does affect exit velocity. Keplarian elements are a good study as well. The arms, hips and spines are connected on both sides afterall. Anyway, bringing mass (the hand and arm) toward the center of rotation helps increase angular acceleration out the other side if they move together. The faster and harder you bring the mass toward the center the greater the kinetic transfer (magnitude) of energy translocates through the body and out the other side. Some examples: Figure skaters entering into and out of a pirouette, a Newton's cradle -drop the ball on one side and see what happens on the other then slam the ball on one side and observe the effect. Spinning a merry-go-round -the harder you pull on a merry-go-round the faster the opposite side flies about its axis. Try pushing it and see what is optimal. Try both and don't rotate your body. Then try leaving the opposite arm sticking out in the opposite direction from the rotation (bear in mind you have two cogs not one). It all can be done some are just more optimal and generate greater force then other methods. Final example a sling throwing a rock or a bolo don't these work the same way? The faster the entry into the spin the faster the exit. The harder the entry pull, the greater the acceleration, the greater the velocity coupled with mass the greater the magnitude of energy that is created (Force of strike).
Thanks for the well thought out reply! We probably “agree” if we met up to practice and look at each other’s technique irl. My statement in the vid was more a reaction to people who way overemphasize the phenomenon you described as the only reason for the hand at the waist. Stay well!
love your videos shifu. awesome fight too. Good to see guys like YOU and Lyoto machida and others using traditional martial arts the right way. Are you seven star or taiji praying mantis or some other system???
Love this. There is a was a great still in the local paper of Wilder winning heavy weight belt in an almost classic front stance reverse punch with hand at waist. This is top heavy weight boxer.
A lot of people swear swinging with your arms wide is a bad idea, but all my KOs have been a punch coming from the waist, swinging wide, and landing at the very end of my arm's reach
There’s an interesting phenomenon when the hand is down to the waste and the palm of the fist is pointed upward. Imagine that hand is hold a weight or a heavy shooting bag. It does something to the stance and the power generated from the ground. Carry that awareness to full full extension of the strike. Give it a try on the heavy bag and thank me later. Don’t hit people with it unless you hate them.
You are one of the few who understand that you cannot reinvent the wheel, but at best you can improve it. I am a traditional martial arts teacher myself and have these discussions. People act as if the previous or traditional training systems are stupid and outdated, without understanding that there is a reason for everything or that there are bad teachers who have never understood what it's about (that's usually the case). All functioning forms of martial arts that exist combine three basic things: hard training, hard conditioning, hard simulation. When that is fulfilled, the finer details come on top. Famous example Mr. Cus d'Amato, Mike Tyson's trainer. Interesting channel, I subscribed to it
Also, in a REAL self defense situation, you are being approached by an aggressor. Hands low, near the waist, maybe hands open to demonstrate Non-Threatening posture, you are really in a camouflaged chambered stance.
@@AppliedShotokan I believe John is referring to a situation where you don't even have time to raise your hands. The approach you mentioned also has its uses.
3:51 defender's hands are up. 3:26 defender's hands are up. 2:53 defender's hands are up. 3:04 defender's hands are up (and he gets dropped by a body shot). It doesn't matter, at that high a level of competition you're going to get knocked out using perfect technique or less than perfect technique. You do realize people are allowed to attempt fight back as they get ok'd yes?
A) opponents are knocked out by punches they do not see coming and B) the hand at the waist, heekeetay, is NOT what is said to create more power but the push/pull that is done., All of the clips had not one push/pull but only had the hand low. The hand low is not all hikite is. Either way, any extra power is as negligible, I think, as the force created.
I think part of the problem with the stigma of this position comes from the way the punches are portrayed in Katas, practice forms and the training montages in martial arts theatrical films. It looks like everyone is throwing straight punches that often appear to have the relative force of a boxing jab. A typical martial arts movie cliche features a large group of martial artists in identical uniforms standing in a horse or front stance and firing off a bunch of fast, straight punches without really engaging their hips or developing any real torque or power. Oftentimes, there are dozens of beginner level movie extras, punching with poor form that is supposed to make the group look like an unstoppable army. It looks cool on film, but, upon closer examination, there doesn't appear to be much power behind those punches. We rarely see guys firing off devastating hooks and haymakers in those non-combat films that look like the real punches that you have shown here. Therefore, it's difficult for people with untrained eyes to see the correlation between movie and video practice forms and Katas and real punching in real live sports and combat. It's little bit like Daniel-San trying to understand the importance of waxing on and off or painting the fence with correct form, because the practical application of the moves is so much different from the training forms. The student is left thinking, "Well, if that's what I'm supposed to do with this position, then why am I standing here like a statue, throwing these weak-ass, stiff little punches? Why aren't we loading up from the hip, developing some real power, torque and rotation and knocking the hell out of a heavy bag with powerful hooks, overhands and haymakers? I can see why this position is so misunderstood in martial arts. Sorry for such a long comment but hopefully, I made some sense.
Oh yeah makes sense. We encourage thought and meaningful conversation on this channel so no need to apologize lol. It is hard to figure out things from a beginner's perspective certainly: I guess that's the whole journey.
Very interesting video. I guess the point is that it’s a calculated risk that’s worth it in certain situations. IMHO, coming from a karate background, the emphasis on the chambered punch makes more sense for the following reasons: 1. In most street confrontations, you will be standing in a neutral stance with your hands by your hips before it all kicks off. Neither you nor your opponent will have your guard up. The aim is to give one big whack from that neutral position. 2. Most street attackers will be untrained and less able to take that big whack than someone who has trained and competed in a full contact striking art and become desensitised to it. I’m not saying you should do this *instead* of boxing-style punching (before anyone responds), I’m just saying it makes sense as a first line of defence.
It is taught for basics because that is how to generate power behind punch efficiently. Our center of gravity is located just near the waist level therefore that's the area where our weight is concentrated. It is just natural that our striking hand should come from that area so that the force of our body weight can be transferred from the heaviest part of our body to the strike.
Yes, one day maybe even before the next 500 years Japanese masters will be able to discover that the waist is flexible!! and you can bend and take advantage of the inertia to obtain more power, or load the weight of the body simply by bending the front leg or taking advantage of the strength of the legs while climbing upwards, and that all this can be done without unprotecting the head!!
Great explanation. I have also noticed that the "hiki-te" also naturally goes to the hip when you are trying to hit someone hard with a cross with the opposite hand. This happens in tons of box knockouts as well. I believe it helps you create more torque at your hip than if you just pull it to the side of the head like it is insisted nowadays in combat sports.
In shuai chiao this is also used one like how newer kung fu and karate use it but also to pull your jacket tight . this denies your opponent a hand hold . shuai chiao in its various names is the ancient ancestor of most asian martial Arts.
Great video. You are spot on. Really enjoyed it. However, you dismiss driving power out by pulling in with the opposite arm. Actually that does work. The biomechanics principles at work are called Kinetic Chains and Facial Trains. It can also be proven with force impact research.
Oh hi Mark! Yes, I have no problem with adding more twist/pivot to a punch and thereby making it more forceful. I was more reacting in my mind to people who A: do the move wrong and go in the literal opposite direction of the punch (crappy karate/kungfu style) instead of actually twisting B: have given me extreme esoteric chi descriptions of this phenomenon in the past (hence why I said “weird bogus theory”) It came to mind and was mentioned in passing during the video but I probably should have elaborated more. If we met up and we were able to discuss/demonstrate in real time we’d probably be in agreement. Thanks for your thoughts. Cheers.
@@theravenswoodacademy8796 Ahhh. I totally understand. Yes I think you are right. Meeting and training together we would be in complete agreement. Thanks for the response.
Hand by the waist is quite old. It connects the hand to the waist for power generation from the turning or whipping of the whole body. Later there were other arts like Wing Chun or xingyi where bothe hands were in front. But that is connected in the same way by doing internal mechanics. I did Mantis for well over a decade then switched to xingyi. Xingyi does basically the same thing, but the internal training teaches you how to connect the arms to the body in a similar, but even more powerful way.
Love the video. Another application for having the hand by the side, would be to train pulling the one limb towards yourself, while punching with the other - the action is exaggerated if its always strictly by your side, but like you said it can be any position off to the side. Its kind of an energetics thing where you feed the punch with the opposing hand by twisting your body. Kung fu has many layers and applications for one thing. Just my thoughts.
As a xing yi guy i thought the same thing.its also a counter motion when doing certain things,one hand goes up and fowards while the other goes backwards and downwards
Excellent synopsis. I routinely bring up people like Monstery, et al. to show this is not a uniquely Eastern Martial Arts phenomenon. Do you have a take on the Choy Li Fut practice of bringing the "chambered" hand all the way behind you to full extension in a lot of techniques, going even beyond a chamber at the waist?
That's the gold standard: it has to work on Nicolas Cage. You now it's funny because fight commentary and others were momentarily puzzled upon sseing my knockout punch: they were describing it as coming up, almost like an uppercut, shovel punch etc. etc. when to me it was just a normal punch because that's how my art does it. Admittedly I guess we are used to seeing a lot of punches thrown straight from the high guard, but that's not the only way.
You need to understand that it is about the spine rather than just the waist. With xingyi I can break your connection guide easily because it's not necessarily about the hand being chambered at the waist.
Your explanación could be coherent but Lowering your hand in preparation for a stronger blow is not the same as doing it to supposedly give more power to the opposite arm, nor is it the same as doing it as is done in many other martial arts as a simple energy saver but always trying to protect your head. deliberately not protecting your head as a teaching and it is going to be fundamental what is done in karate. On the other hand, in all the Videos that you have shown, it is perfectly clear that not only is the arm lowered, but that it is always accompanied by a torsion of the hip that accompanies all the dynamics of the movement, while in karate the elbow is moved backwards. it does this by stopping that dynamic that takes advantage of the inertia of the whole body to hit harder
Hips and hitting with the whole body are definitely important, yes. There are many more details that could have been added but I was trying to be concise.
Finding examples of winning in the ufc swinging drum their waist does not mean its right. In fact when you watch you'll find a lot of the guys that hit knocked out had their hands down in those same highlights. Defensive responsibility is still important, meaning keep your hands up.
If Mike Tyson, Bas Ruten, Rocky Marciano and all the other bad dudes of history did it, it's probably right. Make a counter video with your arguments, because right now it's all my historical and modern day examples vs. your word.
@@theravenswoodacademy8796 and why don't you go ask Mike Tyson or Bas Ruten or Marciano if he was still here if they were dying that because they were supposed too. You still fail to realize every guy that got knocked out in your little highlight reel had their hands down at their hip so.......
@@wingoreviewsboxingandmma3667 "You still fail to realize every guy that got knocked out in your little highlight reel had their hands down at their hip so......." Incorrect. 3:51 defender's hands are up. 3:26 defender's hands are up. 2:53 defender's hands are up. 3:04 defender's hands are up (and he gets dropped by a body shot). "And why don't you ask Bas Ruten if he was doing that because he was supposed to." Bas explicitly teaches it at 6:40. Did you even watch the video? I now question your basic observational skills.
Wow, you do not need to do weight lighting to obtain dynamic punch to get a momentum from upper or lower extremities, maybe you don't have good background HS or junior college in physics. UFC, K1, etc... it is no culture it is mixed to make money. Asdian culture come from Dynasty of discipline, respect with their religious, like Buddhism, Taoism base on internal energy, how to run thru ur body, in which it is another level that you do not have a from ur waist, pushed thru your legslue how is works. Noted technics came from martial arts temple wherethey practice daily. it is not but winning but healthy, to close, the fist clinched at certain time frame it brings ur energy / strength like twist of forearm, momentum from shoulder or thru ur legs, it is deep into physics, good luck
U did not put your hands at the waist on your own fight. You started with your hands up in a defensive postion and them moved them to the side for a longer punch after the jab. Starting off with your hand in on our waist is not good, it leaves you open to attack as you did yourself. The hands on the waist though shows an arm lock postion with arm extended out or the end of throw. Boxers old style never went into the ring with a hand on their wast, they had their hands up in a defensive postiond. The only time a so called waist punch is used, is after other punches from the shoulder set up the target. The so called waist punch is a roundhouse. You are pushing something that is dangerous.
That's basically what he said in the video tho: protect the heads is a key thing in mantis as well, it is not a static stance, it has a specific function. It's a long video, but I don't think he's contradicting you. He's not showing that to be a guard position or static position.
a mere visual coincidence does not make the techniques the same, in those videos in which people like Mike Tyson appear they are not deliberately lowering their hands as a technique learned through training as you can see in any training video in MMA, Boxing or Thai box , in fact, the opposite is trained, to keep the arms up to protect the head, lowering them is considered a mistake and they are trained specifically not to do it, quite contrary to what is done in karate in which they deliberately train by lowering arms and pulling the elbow back. pretending to see similarities in both situations is absurd. On the other hand, Mike Tyson, Bas Ruten and fighters at the world champion level can afford, for the rest of their technical and physical qualities, almost anything, in addition to what can be seen both in the videos and in the photos and drawings. ancient those fighters protect their head in other ways that you do not mention, such as striking with the shoulders aligned to the blow to reach greater distance and prevent the opponent from reaching you or moving the head to the side while striking instead of keeping it stiff as a stick, or bending at the waist and lowering the body while hitting or raising the shoulder of the hitting arm to protect the head, all of which are contrary to what everyone is taught every day levels in karate. In my opinion it is an absolute mistake to teach beginners or people who are not at the level of the elites of the world and from the beginning to lower their arms and deliberately not protect the head as it is done in Karate, that is if the positions are very beautiful and elegant, even if they can break your jaw… have you ever heard what the boxing referee says to the fighters before starting a fight? … “protect your heads”.
Putting the hand by the waist can be found in traditional Asian martial arts (0:48) and historical sources like 1800’s Western boxing books (1:32). It is done by pro UFC fighters (2:28), Muay Thai fighters (9:29), and boxers such as Mike Tyson (3:41), all before they knock people out. It is consciously espoused by sports combat experts, such as MMA champ and former bouncer Bas Ruten (6:30). The World Record holder for the most powerful punch recorded attained the record while putting his hand at the waist (5:15).
14:42
The "tapping" fighting, called "light contact" in many fighting sports, or simply the regular dojo sparring in Shotokan karate, is presumed to be viewed by referees and considered as an effective punch. Many times it is not, in fact the light contact looks basically useless even for teaching intentions, but could be useful if taught correctly.
I am not trying to defend the light contact sparring because I do not like it, except if it is used to teach the kids that, in my opinion, should not involved to potentially dangerous fights, I am more try to explain why it exists.
My Mantis coach teaches the same idea...every movement has a combative, non-esoteric, purpose. Thanks for the documentation provided in this video, hopefully this will open up more minds to our style.
You’re welcome, hopefully it helps. I take the arts seriously but never myself.
Excellent video. I've long said that you see traditional techniques like the bow stance & the horse stance in MMA matches, people just don't know what to look for. Traditional martial arts works 100%, it's the practitioner & the understanding that he or she has that makes the difference.
Love the evidence based approach and mild sarcasm at the end! 👍🏽👍🏽👊🏽
Thank you sir.
Plus it's hidden distract with the lead hand and then power up.
The best explanation about this topic that i ever saw
I LOVED YOUR VIDEO!!! I love learning about the ancient ways of combat and their secrets. Greetings from Argentina
Great video, you illustrated your points well. Coming from a karate perspective here, what’s puzzlingly is the emphasis that seems to have been place on bringing the hand to the hip, especially because we can also look to modern combat sports to see the advantage of keeping your head guarded. It’s odd that we don’t find a functional guard in the kata. Personally, I think it’s the other way around. Hikite is used mostly for grabbing and controlling, alternatively as a loading motion. We do know that there was originally far more grappling in karate than what is typical today.
“What’s puzzling is the emphasis of bringing the hand to the hip” Most likely because bunkai happens/involves scenarios where the opponent is already closely engaged, the “meat” of what makes up combat. Thanks for the input.
@@theravenswoodacademy8796 fair enough. Already being closely engaged would also make gripping more relevant though. A grappling explanation also makes more sense for the arm being kept in place, rather than brought down for a split second and released. I think that we can agree that it isn’t an either/or here, it’s a position that was clearly both as a load and as a grip.
Hands on the waist are a process not the start, no one on in sparing starts with their hands on their waist in karate. THEY PUT THE DUKES UP. Waist postion is for when the punch is in flow esp. when there is no danger of come back. Mostly it is for arm locks and throws.
I've always thought it was because the traditional arts were rooted in weapons fighting arts. A lot of the traditional Kung Fu styles were based on sword and spear fighting movement mechanics. Where power was derived from the hips to execute a sword or spear thrust called a tsuki in the Japanese arts. So your thrusting hand was positioned near the hips like a coiled spring ready to propel your weapon forward quickly at the first instance an opening is available. When swords and spears were no longer used, the techniques were slightly modified to be applied to empty hand fighting but majority of the basic power generation mechanics remained the same.
The problem comes from Many Karate instructors who have NEVER been taught correctly. Point sparring and not understanding Kata are a couple of examples
Good video. It’s funny and sad at the same time that many of the ‘old school’ instructors give the students the impression that hand on hip is a Static position. Karate stances are a snap shot /transitory point in movement. Oh well. It is very hard to change a person’s belief’s. Thank you for sharing
So the original knowledge got lost. Perhaps it is congruent with what they say about Oriental culture - the wise old man does not teach everything he knows to his discipline; he holds something back for himself. So when he dies, the wisdom he withheld - dies with him. Then when his disciple becomes the wise old man, he repeats the cycle.
My BJJ teacher was also a teacher of Goshin-Jitsu Karate and told me that the reason for the horse riding stance and other low wide stances (typical of Shotokan) was that at the beginning of a fight, one is fresh, but as the fight goes on, one gets tired and has the temptation to make his stance shallower.
If you start the fight with a normal boxing stance, then as the fight prolongs, you get tempted to stand straight up as you get tired. Thus taking away any mobility.
If you start at the beginning of the fight with the low wide stance, then as time goes on, your stance narrows to get closer to the ideal of a boxing stance as you get more tired.
That was my understanding.
The obvious reason is get ready to draw the side weapon sword, knive and sword
This is the best explanation of hikite i have ever heard on youtube!. Thank you sensei🙏.
Oss
Glad you found it helpful. It is really poorly understood. I'm not even sure I did it justice in this video but it was the best I could do just talking.
African Dambe boxing which is related to ancient Greek/Roman boxing still exist and they punch from the hips too. Have you seen them?
I haven't but that makes sense. Cheers!
I did MMA back in my twenties, and I can recall a few fights where I loaded up and got a KO/TKO. On the contrary, I can recall a guy who was the hardest hitter I’d fought that loaded up a lot, and people respected his power.
This was a great video my guy. Almost felt as if I was in a real conversation with you. Good topic for discussion and made some excellent points. Subscribed. 🙏🏻
It really depends on what kind of opponent you're up against. For probing and countering probing attacks, a high guard position is better as it will offer a quicker guard response, but for power moves and blocking power moves, hands low will offer greater force. That being said, martial arts evolves like everything else, and new techniques beg for new responses. If you have fast reflexes and can sway dodge punches and kicks well, then lower hands can offer you a greater field of view when combating multiple opponents. The Philly Shell is hybrid and great for back-fisting from the lowered hand. At the end of the day, if you have a wide arsenal base and can switch between techniques at will, you'll be the better fighter. Fighting against different techniques is paramount in developing and evolving practical martial arts.
Isolation Training when doing forms and drills . Keeping in centerline and working one side at a time. Majority of everything is push and pull motions . This helps this process. When dealing with more than one the sharp elbow aids in offense / defense maneuvers.When there is trouble behind this trains for constant application on the elbow . There is also winding or reeling power as mentioned to suck in attacks . Also for grabbing ,grappling and controlling. This all begins from the first day of formal training at least in Kung Fu and Karate . While learning stances your upper body is isolated on both sides with both arms and hands chambered. Before ever teaching to throw a single blow you must do stance work and this is the norm. Horse Stance is fundamental and consists of this principle. Later punches and kicks are introduced and this chambering remains . Later turns and redirection involves this fixed elbow position. As with anything in life and especially classical martial arts there are several uses and techniques derived from a simple position.
I do agree about this perspective. Which i don't agree about hikite is if those palms are always on hips all the time.
I think it by the waist one it’s less expected to strike. Two it’s that classic contracting fist goes to the side then expanding when it punches out etc.
It could also be pulling an opponents arm down. Arm breaks like in Karate blocks for example.
It’s to create structure as well correct body alignment and if where talking forms then it’s all about that 💪🤜👍
In karate, the hikite is important for the opponent wrist control to, essential in close combat.
A legit skill to be sure.
For some strange reason people in muay thai or in boxing or MMA do the same, but they think that they don't do that....
And if you do, they report it as a mistake.
The same for many other things.
Some are aware but yes, some definitely are not conscious that that is happening, even if only for a moment. To be fair the gesture was over-ritualized by some bad traditional martial arts teachers.
No they do not do the same, they have their hands up, also boxers mostly punch from their shoulder with a hip turn same with thais or MMA. The waist punch is only used when there is no danger of counter punch by the oppenant.
There is no perfect way to do it - if it's stupid, but it works, then it is not stupid. Same thing (dropped arm) can cause you to get KO'd. The same dropped arm can make you KO the opponent. Air Force pilots have this saying: "A good landing is the one you can walk away from." IMHO same goes for fighting. If you can walk away from the fight, it was a good fight. You don't know if you did it right or not until it's over. It's a constant learning process.
It's strange to me that humans need to logically rediscover a simple function of their bodies like this.
I don't think my cat has ever need to think about any of the amazing stuff it does.
YES the name of the technique (TCMA and TJMA) for that hand to waist means, “pulling hand.” It’s mixing grappling in with striking.
But, ALSO considering that almost every occurrence of actual combat back in the days… knives and other hidden weapons, including throwing sand, chemicals, poisons, coins, shaved objects were involved. You constantly check that off-hand to stop them from reaching back to their waist after you’ve bridged the distance gap. Only modern art that I’ve seen practice this overtly nowadays is Eskrima / Kali unfortunately
Forms always exaggerate and lose context over time, unfortunately.
Thanks for putting this together. I agree with you mostly and glad folks are countering the generalized notions that are in the martial world today about the principle dynamics that apply in our practices. I would argue one point considering your statement "The really weird bogus theory of forcefully pulling back your arm to pivot the other arm around to hit harder not being how physics work". Actually it would seem that is exactly how physics works. I don't want to be assuming of your background or get into the theory or Rotation Dynamics but I would just suggest that Newton's 2nd Law of Rotation, Net Torque, Power and Momentum, Angular velocity -its acceleration and deceleration, opposing and complimentary forces, location of the mass around a fixed axis etc suggest entry velocity of energy around a central axis does affect exit velocity. Keplarian elements are a good study as well. The arms, hips and spines are connected on both sides afterall. Anyway, bringing mass (the hand and arm) toward the center of rotation helps increase angular acceleration out the other side if they move together. The faster and harder you bring the mass toward the center the greater the kinetic transfer (magnitude) of energy translocates through the body and out the other side. Some examples: Figure skaters entering into and out of a pirouette, a Newton's cradle -drop the ball on one side and see what happens on the other then slam the ball on one side and observe the effect. Spinning a merry-go-round -the harder you pull on a merry-go-round the faster the opposite side flies about its axis. Try pushing it and see what is optimal. Try both and don't rotate your body. Then try leaving the opposite arm sticking out in the opposite direction from the rotation (bear in mind you have two cogs not one). It all can be done some are just more optimal and generate greater force then other methods. Final example a sling throwing a rock or a bolo don't these work the same way? The faster the entry into the spin the faster the exit. The harder the entry pull, the greater the acceleration, the greater the velocity coupled with mass the greater the magnitude of energy that is created (Force of strike).
Thanks for the well thought out reply! We probably “agree” if we met up to practice and look at each other’s technique irl. My statement in the vid was more a reaction to people who way overemphasize the phenomenon you described as the only reason for the hand at the waist. Stay well!
San ti shi is pne of the most common postures in martial arts and the back hand is at the waist :P
love your videos shifu. awesome fight too. Good to see guys like YOU and Lyoto machida and others using traditional martial arts the right way. Are you seven star or taiji praying mantis or some other system???
Ah thank you! Not taiji Mantis. Search "Wong Honfan" as this is basically my line/tradition and training method. Cheers!
Loading up a punch...what the? That's just craaaaazy!
there is a difference in locking down your arm down and all the way back, and pulling back your arm like in boxing. they do it in a different way.
Love this. There is a was a great still in the local paper of Wilder winning heavy weight belt in an almost classic front stance reverse punch with hand at waist. This is top heavy weight boxer.
thanks for the in depth explanation man, not even those regular chinese kungfu sifu can explain that
In the end, It doesn't matter how you fight. All that matters that you win the fight. Or survive it I guess.
A lot of people swear swinging with your arms wide is a bad idea, but all my KOs have been a punch coming from the waist, swinging wide, and landing at the very end of my arm's reach
There’s an interesting phenomenon when the hand is down to the waste and the palm of the fist is pointed upward. Imagine that hand is hold a weight or a heavy shooting bag. It does something to the stance and the power generated from the ground. Carry that awareness to full full extension of the strike. Give it a try on the heavy bag and thank me later. Don’t hit people with it unless you hate them.
You are one of the few who understand that you cannot reinvent the wheel, but at best you can improve it.
I am a traditional martial arts teacher myself and have these discussions.
People act as if the previous or traditional training systems are stupid and outdated, without understanding that there is a reason for everything or that there are bad teachers who have never understood what it's about (that's usually the case). All functioning forms of martial arts that exist combine three basic things: hard training, hard conditioning, hard simulation. When that is fulfilled, the finer details come on top. Famous example Mr. Cus d'Amato, Mike Tyson's trainer.
Interesting channel, I subscribed to it
Agreed , have always agreed. 👏👏👏👏
Also, in a REAL self defense situation, you are being approached by an aggressor. Hands low, near the waist, maybe hands open to demonstrate Non-Threatening posture, you are really in a camouflaged chambered stance.
True, a good point.
It makes much more sense to use "the fence. Hands up, palms forward. You're ready but with a non-threatening posture.
@@AppliedShotokan I believe John is referring to a situation where you don't even have time to raise your hands. The approach you mentioned also has its uses.
It is simply just the most natural and powerful way to punch.
Notice where the guys that fit koed hands are at as well, the same place you're defending keeping them 🤔 👀
3:51 defender's hands are up. 3:26 defender's hands are up. 2:53 defender's hands are up. 3:04 defender's hands are up (and he gets dropped by a body shot). It doesn't matter, at that high a level of competition you're going to get knocked out using perfect technique or less than perfect technique. You do realize people are allowed to attempt fight back as they get ok'd yes?
It's actually NOT what it's for. In my system that is a hidden technique of grabbing and pulling the guy into you while you're punching.
Great video.
Thanks.
A) opponents are knocked out by punches they do not see coming and B) the hand at the waist, heekeetay, is NOT what is said to create more power but the push/pull that is done., All of the clips had not one push/pull but only had the hand low. The hand low is not all hikite is. Either way, any extra power is as negligible, I think, as the force created.
I think part of the problem with the stigma of this position comes from the way the punches are portrayed in Katas, practice forms and the training montages in martial arts theatrical films.
It looks like everyone is throwing straight punches that often appear to have the relative force of a boxing jab. A typical martial arts movie cliche features a large group of martial artists in identical uniforms standing in a horse or front stance and firing off a bunch of fast, straight punches without really engaging their hips or developing any real torque or power.
Oftentimes, there are dozens of beginner level movie extras, punching with poor form that is supposed to make the group look like an unstoppable army. It looks cool on film, but, upon closer examination, there doesn't appear to be much power behind those punches.
We rarely see guys firing off devastating hooks and haymakers in those non-combat films that look like the real punches that you have shown here. Therefore, it's difficult for people with untrained eyes to see the correlation between movie and video practice forms and Katas and real punching in real live sports and combat.
It's little bit like Daniel-San trying to understand the importance of waxing on and off or painting the fence with correct form, because the practical application of the moves is so much different from the training forms.
The student is left thinking, "Well, if that's what I'm supposed to do with this position, then why am I standing here like a statue, throwing these weak-ass, stiff little punches? Why aren't we loading up from the hip, developing some real power, torque and rotation and knocking the hell out of a heavy bag with powerful hooks, overhands and haymakers? I can see why this position is so misunderstood in martial arts.
Sorry for such a long comment but hopefully, I made some sense.
Oh yeah makes sense. We encourage thought and meaningful conversation on this channel so no need to apologize lol. It is hard to figure out things from a beginner's perspective certainly: I guess that's the whole journey.
Very interesting video.
I guess the point is that it’s a calculated risk that’s worth it in certain situations.
IMHO, coming from a karate background, the emphasis on the chambered punch makes more sense for the following reasons:
1. In most street confrontations, you will be standing in a neutral stance with your hands by your hips before it all kicks off. Neither you nor your opponent will have your guard up. The aim is to give one big whack from that neutral position.
2. Most street attackers will be untrained and less able to take that big whack than someone who has trained and competed in a full contact striking art and become desensitised to it.
I’m not saying you should do this *instead* of boxing-style punching (before anyone responds), I’m just saying it makes sense as a first line of defence.
It is taught for basics because that is how to generate power behind punch efficiently. Our center of gravity is located just near the waist level therefore that's the area where our weight is concentrated. It is just natural that our striking hand should come from that area so that the force of our body weight can be transferred from the heaviest part of our body to the strike.
Agreed.
Yes, one day maybe even before the next 500 years Japanese masters will be able to discover that the waist is flexible!! and you can bend and take advantage of the inertia to obtain more power, or load the weight of the body simply by bending the front leg or taking advantage of the strength of the legs while climbing upwards, and that all this can be done without unprotecting the head!!
Absolutely love this video.
Great explanation. I have also noticed that the "hiki-te" also naturally goes to the hip when you are trying to hit someone hard with a cross with the opposite hand. This happens in tons of box knockouts as well. I believe it helps you create more torque at your hip than if you just pull it to the side of the head like it is insisted nowadays in combat sports.
In shuai chiao this is also used one like how newer kung fu and karate use it but also to pull your jacket tight . this denies your opponent a hand hold . shuai chiao in its various names is the ancient ancestor of most asian martial Arts.
Great video. You are spot on. Really enjoyed it.
However, you dismiss driving power out by pulling in with the opposite arm. Actually that does work. The biomechanics principles at work are called Kinetic Chains and Facial Trains. It can also be proven with force impact research.
Oh hi Mark! Yes, I have no problem with adding more twist/pivot to a punch and thereby making it more forceful. I was more reacting in my mind to people who
A: do the move wrong and go in the literal opposite direction of the punch (crappy karate/kungfu style) instead of actually twisting
B: have given me extreme esoteric chi descriptions of this phenomenon in the past (hence why I said “weird bogus theory”)
It came to mind and was mentioned in passing during the video but I probably should have elaborated more. If we met up and we were able to discuss/demonstrate in real time we’d probably be in agreement. Thanks for your thoughts. Cheers.
@@theravenswoodacademy8796 Ahhh. I totally understand. Yes I think you are right. Meeting and training together we would be in complete agreement. Thanks for the response.
Hand by the waist is quite old. It connects the hand to the waist for power generation from the turning or whipping of the whole body. Later there were other arts like Wing Chun or xingyi where bothe hands were in front. But that is connected in the same way by doing internal mechanics.
I did Mantis for well over a decade then switched to xingyi. Xingyi does basically the same thing, but the internal training teaches you how to connect the arms to the body in a similar, but even more powerful way.
Great regurgitation of false information on physics.
Super interesting, I never really understood this before
Cómo se llama el estiló de la mantis para que yo aprenda también puedes decirme
This video helped me to see alot thank you!
Glad it helped Angelo!
I love you so much. lol.
Awesome! Thanks!
You're Welcome!
You know a guy likes to train outside when his mug says "Sweater Weather".
lol. I love outside, weather permitting.
Love the video. Another application for having the hand by the side, would be to train pulling the one limb towards yourself, while punching with the other - the action is exaggerated if its always strictly by your side, but like you said it can be any position off to the side. Its kind of an energetics thing where you feed the punch with the opposing hand by twisting your body. Kung fu has many layers and applications for one thing. Just my thoughts.
As a xing yi guy i thought the same thing.its also a counter motion when doing certain things,one hand goes up and fowards while the other goes backwards and downwards
Excellent synopsis. I routinely bring up people like Monstery, et al. to show this is not a uniquely Eastern Martial Arts phenomenon.
Do you have a take on the Choy Li Fut practice of bringing the "chambered" hand all the way behind you to full extension in a lot of techniques, going even beyond a chamber at the waist?
More power, less speed. A trade off that can be utilized at the fighter’s discretion (this is seen in mantis boxing occasionally).
great explanation dude, which styles did u learned over the years?
Hand at the waist would never work in a Street Beefs Cage ! Right ? 😦🤫☺️
That's the gold standard: it has to work on Nicolas Cage.
You now it's funny because fight commentary and others were momentarily puzzled upon sseing my knockout punch: they were describing it as coming up, almost like an uppercut, shovel punch etc. etc. when to me it was just a normal punch because that's how my art does it. Admittedly I guess we are used to seeing a lot of punches thrown straight from the high guard, but that's not the only way.
You need to understand that it is about the spine rather than just the waist. With xingyi I can break your connection guide easily because it's not necessarily about the hand being chambered at the waist.
Your explanación could be coherent but Lowering your hand in preparation for a stronger blow is not the same as doing it to supposedly give more power to the opposite arm, nor is it the same as doing it as is done in many other martial arts as a simple energy saver but always trying to protect your head. deliberately not protecting your head as a teaching and it is going to be fundamental what is done in karate. On the other hand, in all the Videos that you have shown, it is perfectly clear that not only is the arm lowered, but that it is always accompanied by a torsion of the hip that accompanies all the dynamics of the movement, while in karate the elbow is moved backwards. it does this by stopping that dynamic that takes advantage of the inertia of the whole body to hit harder
Hips and hitting with the whole body are definitely important, yes. There are many more details that could have been added but I was trying to be concise.
👍
Who did you learn from?
Finding examples of winning in the ufc swinging drum their waist does not mean its right. In fact when you watch you'll find a lot of the guys that hit knocked out had their hands down in those same highlights.
Defensive responsibility is still important, meaning keep your hands up.
If Mike Tyson, Bas Ruten, Rocky Marciano and all the other bad dudes of history did it, it's probably right. Make a counter video with your arguments, because right now it's all my historical and modern day examples vs. your word.
@@theravenswoodacademy8796 of you think I'm why not go in the ring and try it
@@theravenswoodacademy8796 and why don't you go ask Mike Tyson or Bas Ruten or Marciano if he was still here if they were dying that because they were supposed too.
You still fail to realize every guy that got knocked out in your little highlight reel had their hands down at their hip so.......
@@wingoreviewsboxingandmma3667 "You still fail to realize every guy that got knocked out in your little highlight reel had their hands down at their hip so......." Incorrect. 3:51 defender's hands are up. 3:26 defender's hands are up. 2:53 defender's hands are up. 3:04 defender's hands are up (and he gets dropped by a body shot). "And why don't you ask Bas Ruten if he was doing that because he was supposed to." Bas explicitly teaches it at 6:40. Did you even watch the video? I now question your basic observational skills.
Wow, you do not need to do weight lighting to obtain dynamic punch to get a momentum from upper or lower extremities, maybe you don't have good background HS or junior college in physics. UFC, K1, etc... it is no culture it is mixed to make money. Asdian culture come from Dynasty of discipline, respect with their religious, like Buddhism, Taoism base on internal energy, how to run thru ur body, in which it is another level that you do not have a from ur waist, pushed thru your legslue how is works. Noted technics came from martial arts temple wherethey practice daily. it is not but winning but healthy, to close, the fist clinched at certain time frame it brings ur energy / strength like twist of forearm, momentum from shoulder or thru ur legs, it is deep into physics, good luck
U did not put your hands at the waist on your own fight. You started with your hands up in a defensive postion and them moved them to the side for a longer punch after the jab. Starting off with your hand in on our waist is not good, it leaves you open to attack as you did yourself. The hands on the waist though shows an arm lock postion with arm extended out or the end of throw. Boxers old style never went into the ring with a hand on their wast, they had their hands up in a defensive postiond. The only time a so called waist punch is used, is after other punches from the shoulder set up the target. The so called waist punch is a roundhouse. You are pushing something that is dangerous.
That's basically what he said in the video tho: protect the heads is a key thing in mantis as well, it is not a static stance, it has a specific function.
It's a long video, but I don't think he's contradicting you. He's not showing that to be a guard position or static position.
a mere visual coincidence does not make the techniques the same, in those videos in which people like Mike Tyson appear they are not deliberately lowering their hands as a technique learned through training as you can see in any training video in MMA, Boxing or Thai box , in fact, the opposite is trained, to keep the arms up to protect the head, lowering them is considered a mistake and they are trained specifically not to do it, quite contrary to what is done in karate in which they deliberately train by lowering arms and pulling the elbow back. pretending to see similarities in both situations is absurd. On the other hand, Mike Tyson, Bas Ruten and fighters at the world champion level can afford, for the rest of their technical and physical qualities, almost anything, in addition to what can be seen both in the videos and in the photos and drawings. ancient those fighters protect their head in other ways that you do not mention, such as striking with the shoulders aligned to the blow to reach greater distance and prevent the opponent from reaching you or moving the head to the side while striking instead of keeping it stiff as a stick, or bending at the waist and lowering the body while hitting or raising the shoulder of the hitting arm to protect the head, all of which are contrary to what everyone is taught every day levels in karate. In my opinion it is an absolute mistake to teach beginners or people who are not at the level of the elites of the world and from the beginning to lower their arms and deliberately not protect the head as it is done in Karate, that is if the positions are very beautiful and elegant, even if they can break your jaw… have you ever heard what the boxing referee says to the fighters before starting a fight? … “protect your heads”.
8:47
Closed fist fighting is about the most limeted form of fighting ever lmao