I think the parents are done with the whole thing. Two Dutch women wrote a book, "Lost in the Jungle." It's been released this month, I believe. They contacted the parents beforehand just to let them know they were writing the book so they wouldn't be surprised when it was published. The parents really weren't interested in hearing about anything they had to say.
@@Suzanne1999 I kind of don’t blame them. Can you imagine how painful that must be to hear about? Here’s what they know for sure: their daughters are gone. And the title of the book may insult them, given that they may not believe that their daughters perished because they got lost in the jungle.
@@livmilesparanormalromanceb6891 Actually, it's interesting you say this. There's some legality -- I can't remember now -- but way back when, the Kremers agreed to stop pursuing the case and accept the lost theory put out by Dutch and Panamanian officials. Of course now we know that is false. With all the evidence that's been found out since 2014 to support abduction, the case is now experiencing a renewed interest in solving it. Why two Dutch women thought they should write this book, I have no idea. Not surprisingly, the book is getting terrible press. It's crap; don't waste your money.
Unfortunately i am sure they will never know the truth of what happened to their girls. They unfortunately made a mistake by venturing out in the jungle alone with no guide or anyone to protect them. But you are right parents should never have to go through the pain that they have which they will take to their own end of their lives, its so sad and so tragic.
This case had been botched by the authorities since the start! For me the head of the sneak is in the school with that Director that lured the girls to Panama , only to reject them and change the date of the start of the school for the girls!! This crime was a crime made trough a cooparative effort , the kidnapping etc
I feel so bad for the parents. How hard must it have been for the father to talk about the logistics of his daughter's remains and the questions surrounding it. You can see the pain in his eyes.
It is horrible isn't it. Those poor parents. In the Kremers family's case I feel things have been made even worse for them by the way they have been treated by case officials. And still are! They have been cast aside as trouble makers, when all they did was question the lax and slow police work, the incomplete and shoddy investigation and things like that. Here Hans seems to want to tell more about the details he knows, but the woman leading the investigation told him not to share anything with the public at that stage. Considering how the investigation ended, I feel even worse for these poor families who tried to shake doors that were just left closed for them :( Shame on the people who have tried to paint these families in a bad light (they know who they are)
@@ronaldchoo5586 Bullshit. That was Dane Louisa Jespersen, 24, and Maren Ueland, 28, murdered in Morocco. I do not recommend anyone watch that vile video.
I find it very sad what happened to the two girls, no question about it! But: the girls had no accident, they were caught, kidnapped, abused and killed! Unfortunately! And by far in vain ... I hope the two girls have at least found their peace! 😟😢
All evidence found scattered around the place and in strange conditions and found on different times, but yet always one name keeps popping up when there's something found ... that guy in this video (the tour guide) , who is always the first to say there's nothing left to investigate they are dead so stop investigating. Something is telling me he's covering up for some one, probably for his son that knew the two guy's that met the girls during the hike and also both died in the same year. When two girls die in a so called missing persons case, and 3 guy's that were directly involved die in the same year. Well, you don't have to be a Sherlock Holmes to know something is up. Especially in a country that is plagued by illegal organ businesses, sex trafficking and drug gangs. But that guy, he's creepy as fucked and not who he portrays to be what he is.
Yeh, it is all swept under the carpet. Drownings happen all the time there apparently. Even when the victims lie in shallow water and could have survived by simply lifting their heads. Nothing to see here people, just move along.
@@scarletr.7753 Good advice! Cease all tourist travel to Panama. Teach the country & tourism industry ,to properly investigate, until the killer is found & destroyed, rather than sit on information & hide a serial killer or killers!
The photo of the girls at the summit show two women who are clean, not sweaty....not dirty or otherwise looking like they just trekked through a jungle . They both looked much too clean to have just completed a jungle walk to the summit of a mountain. Those photos make no sense at all.
I heard a rumour that authorities took matters into their own hands and killed the perpetrator or perpetrators because going around killing tourists is bad for business and could do irreparable damage. I can see that happening with how corrupt that while area is.
It is a pity that this case, although it was widely publicized, was not properly investigated. The blame for all the lost time in search of the girls, irretrievably lost evidence and misinterpreted events of what happened by the Panamanian authorities.
In my opinion it was enough investigated. I dont say , it was perfect investigated (Panama is much more poor then first world countries... so the investigators didnt make everything perfect.. for instance : that one foto Lisanne took was probably really deleted by accident, and not by purpose, by one of the investigator.. he was simply not as well an expert in a poor country, as someone in a rich country can be). But other than that, they did quiet a good job. And i agree with their results... its the most plausible result in my opinion. Sure its not as spectacular as the people love to hear ''it has to be murder!'' ... i understand that. But its the most plausible. Unfortunately the layman people didnt know a lot of physics and chemistry.. so when they read ''one bone seem to be bleached'' , they immediately think ''someone did that'' ... Its exhausting for me, to explain everyone of them what they should have learned in undergrade school: that certain chemicals from the nearby vulcano (Banu) makes sulfuracid-rain (espescially in months) also when a bone is on air, and on the sun by chance... that one bone gets bleached.. While other bones which are partly covered in soil or water, look different. Thats only one thing - dont want to write a book here, to explain everything the laymans believe to ''found suspicious'' ... Sure we will never have all answers. Thats why i said : ''enough investigated'' .. we have enough answers, i think. We dont have the answers we would love to hear ''it has to be murder! ... we need to find the criminals !'' ... Yes... we dont have this. But we really know a lot. We just dont like the answers.
Feliciano was in in it for sure, the parties involved had some sort of system going, probably even some cops too, or higher up, sex trafficking or maybe their own little psychotic game. Lost and died is an explanation for the mindless masses. Obvious evil and sinister work is at play here. Heart goes out for the girls and all loved ones 🙏
sex trafficking being botched, and turned into organ trafficking after a lose end (forgot his name) was drowned. At least 2 of the guides who "helped" with the search were in on it. Im convinced
If it was foul play, Feliciano would be the likely suspect. However, I believe that he was murdered a couple of years back? The best and most logical assessment is the video produced by the Daily Beast which can be viewed on RUclips. The whole situation is really sad, and, we'll probably never know what happened to these beautiful young women?
@Christopher Bingham I wrote that comment before I had more information. I'm convinced that Feliciano was involve in this. Many of the other perpetrators are dead, dying of mysterious circumstances. My theory on why Feliciano is still alive - he ratted on his cohorts. The others were killed probably by Panamanian authorities in order to avoid a trial and adverse publicity that will kill their tourist business. Third world country = frontier justice! Bottom line - don't go to Panama!
I commend you on this, can't even to imagine the sheer terror those two beautiful girls went through, never even knew about this until it came up on my utube feed, can't express how sad I feel for the parents without any answers, it's definitely MURDER, 💔
Sie wurden ermordet, aus welchen Gründen auch immer...auf jeden Fall war es definitiv *kein* Unfall!!! Und die Eltern sind leider mit dem Mann den Pianista hochgestiegen, der genau weiß, was Sache ist! Feliciano weiß ganz genau, was mit den beiden Mädels geschah! Es tut mir leid, von Herzen leid, das man als Eltern sowas erleiden muss. Aber was wirklich geschah, werden wir nicht mehr erfahren! R.I.P. Kris und Lisanne! 🙏🕯️🕊️
I am very very sorry for the lost .... This made me cry. These young beautiful lively ladies didnot deserve this. They and their parent would never rest in peace.... This is torning them apart
The theory of an accident is imposible. No accidente ends with a few little bones found . Es obvio que todo fué armado. Es básico. Típica escena armada. Demasiado preparada. Qué injusticia!!! .
At least I saw many comments (from females) saying bras could be extremely uncomfortable in such humid environment and there is no point keep wearing it anyway unless you have bigger breast (which is not the case here and their bras don't look like sports bras neither)
Agree with sweat etc they could be very uncomfortable, so the fact that they were not on, doesn’t prove that they met foul play. Presumably if it had been a sexual assault why would they have been found in the bag anyway?
i think all the time this happened with the people being followed as soon as they are visible,these girls were subjected of foul play,nothing,i mean nothing can explained why items were found miles! away from the point of their dissapearence,the back pack in prime conditions? photos deleted?their bras?one of the girls short not with her? it is terrible that this continue happening and nobody it's never found accountable,i'm peruvian and i have guided ladies in my country to trails and turistic towns and villages,just hurt so much to know this can happen,my condolances to the families,blessings to all.
I've been thinking a lot about this case and Kris&Lisannes fate... I strongly believe they met foul play, but it's so frustrating no concrete evidence was found, that gives a conclusion to all the speculation. :( I wonder if the river bank has been followed and searched at all after the pelvic bone was found... I don't really believe in Jaguars eating up two almost whole skeletons and skulls even IF the girls bodies were in the jungle/the river. It all makes no sense...
They were killed, everyone knows it. But the murderers are still free and continue their lives. Everything was made to look like the girls had disappeared, but they were killed in a planned manner. Unfortunately, they were kidnapped, raped and their organs were sold.
My condolences to Kris Kremers and Lisanne Froon’s parents. Since hearing about this case, I have obsessively watched each and every possible version of events, that ended in those two beautiful souls demise. This case needs to be reopened and thoroughly investigated. Anyone else having visions or dreams of this case?
The pressures on this man and his partner perhaps get overlooked, caught in the strange unreality of a childs disappearance thousands of miles away and with little communication from that country's authorities they stand there waiting, bystanders in a very personal horror story.... I do wonder whether it still has that touch of unreality about it for them, with so many key questions left unaddressed and unanswered can there be any real closure? -------------------------------- "..Behind a Tree Trunk, almost Under it," You read that description, and see the photograph of the finders stood over it, and ask the obvious question - how does this boot(and its foot) get from a supposed journey down the river to being in this strange and unlikely position? Behind and almost under a tree trunk on the riverside somewhere, you might argue some animal carried it there, but is it coincidence that the tree trunk is an easily identifiable feature and would work to protect and hide the boot until a search party coming down the river thinks to walk over to this unremarkable tree trunk (or log) and inspect it. Perhaps I can read too much into its lucky find here, but then when Hans Kremer's independently points out the strangeness of his daughters fastened shorts found while her hip-bone is found kilometres downstream you do have corroboration of your queries here. Kremers himself is clearly an astute man, very perceptive and was able to spot some of the odd elements to the findings early on. But as i just happened to read a new entry on your blogs first page you print out an autopsy report on the few found remains which reveals the pathologists results of their inspection. And the report from them that Lisanne's few remains (leg bone) showed the signs of "Root" bleaching from almost certainly being buried in a shallow grave is stunning if true, and I have no reason to think it isn't if this report is genuine. But why is it that no one picked up on this detail in the report...? It turns the story upside down, was it suppressed perhaps, or is the case that no one picked up on this up until now? And is this result from the bone found in June, or the ones found in late August ...?
Hi David, yeh I have a lot of empathy (and sympathy) for Hans Kremers. He has been through so much. Not just the immeasurable loss of his daughter, but also fighting against officials, against the Dutch prosecution, the Panamanian officials, hiring his own lawyer, dealing with months of delay for simply receiving a DNA result for the bones that were found. It goes on and on. having to refuse receiving his daughter's bones because accepting them would equal a stop to the investigation. He was pushed aside as a troublemaker by the Dutch police, ignored. I understand from news articles that the Kremers still have many questions left. Yeh those are way too rational, common sense questions. (And how come some parts ended up upstream?) I've not heard a good explanation for it either. Like so many questions that have been ignored. Pitti will have her own commercial book out next year (no approval for this from the families of the girls), so we may hear more on this perhaps in time to come.. I wonder how that photo of the men and the tree trunk and the shoe made it to the Panamanian media so quickly. Before the parents even heard about it (same for the bones, Betzaida paraded them on camera before the parents were informed a well). Yes the new info about root markings comes from Romain, who published the partial autopsy findings, which were leaked to him. Just like the ball of skin, these details could have huge possible implications, but are as good as ignored in this case. People rather discuss Blue the dog. The autopsy report was never made public. I think that is why it was never picked up. And Romains blog is in French and not everybody knows about it.. It were the leg bones, from memory, so the ones found in late August.
@@scarletr.7753 Hi Scarlet! The remains and autopsy side of this were things I didn't pay all that much attention to until very recently. When you have a disappearance case like this then just about anything could have happened to the deceased bodies, who can say. But I was passed a link by Mutinyonethekitkat to 'Imperfectplan', where he undertakes a forensics study of the remains and his research on the background of the science of it all was so very impressive you can't fail to have your views altered and expanded on the condition the remains were found in and what it all must mean. His essay is hard going to begin with, but extremely rewarding for anyone with an interest in this disappearance. I realise you added it to your blog and looked at some of it but I will add it here for anyone who is interested in the forensics of decomposition and how it reflects the finds made in Panama: imperfectplan.com/2020/07/02/kris-kremers-lisanne-froon-panama-bleached-bones/ It's heavy going to begin with, but stay with it and you _will_ be rewarded. ------------------------------------ These autopsy reports from Romain, I think I am right in believing they would be from the late August finds? If so observations on "Root" bleaching would fit the peculiar observation of the skin found with it. I just cannot understand why it is this detail has never made it out until now.... If it was suppressed then it adds more weight to the suspicions of a general cover-up going on, but if we are thinking on the idea that Lisanne was buried then a new set of questions arise. I imagine for this "Root£ bleaching effect to take place then it would take a few weeks for it to happen, meaning if the observation and the report is truthful she had to have died early into the Disappearance. Both of them. And someone has had enough privacy to do all of this without it being noticed. I do wonder what else is out there being suppressed.
i would say and go with investigation in humans organs trafficking direction ...dont know why but i feel like that and also villagers involved with one of the girl backpack-they know i think much more than thay said...
To Scarlett. You have done a tremendous amount of work on this case. I only heard about this horrific tragedy 3 days ago. I have read a day's worth of your work. In the beginning of my own research I was more on the fence and receptive to the lost in the woods theory. In general it would be the most likely scenario. But as you've clearly argued in all of your work, this is no ordinary disappearance. I have spent a lot of time on the 'lost' theory because I feel that it should be 100 percent ruled out before claiming things we have no proof for. But I definitely lean foul play. If the facts of this case are to be believed there are just too many coincidences for it to be simply getting lost. Even though getting lost and succumbing to the elements would be a likely scenario, I think the conspiracy theory here is actually coming from those who want blame inexperienced yet intelligent and cautious women. Like how do these foul play deniers explain Lisanne's rolled up ball of skin and foot in boot with skin just lying undisturbed for Feliciano to find right after all that reward money was offered? Kris' bleached pelvic bone? I've l heard the rebuttals and they're extremely weak. The thing about the getting lost theory is it makes sense until you familiarize yourself with the trail. It's straightforward. Hard to deviate from. There's also traffic. The injury theory makes little sense as both girls would have to be injured to the point of being unable to walk. Highly unlikely and as evidenced in the walk along videos there's nowhere along the path the girls could have got that severely injured before their first emergency call. The phone usage, or lack thereof, after 4:51 pm for me is the most damning thing. Their first night lost alone in the woods and neither turns their phone on again for 14 hours? I get that it would be intelligent to conserve battery power. I just don't believe anybody in that situation would or could sit in pitch black cool as a cucumber for 7 days straight. They couldn't have been that far away at 4:39 the time of their first emergency call. They had no reason to conserve their battery power if they believed they could probably hike back day 2 first thing. To me it is supposing way too much to say both girls were injured to the point of not being able to call for help on the trail. It's too much to say one couldn't walk or try to crawl back to Boquette for help. The girls did not send one pending message to loved ones that would automatically send if they happened upon service. They left no photos or video messages for 11 days with battery power. And photo 509 was deleted manually off a computer unless some absolute miracle took place. The conspiracy theorist here is the one lacking context making general assumptions. The ones who want to believe Panama is no more dangerous than their comfortable first world community. It's really hard not to be biased in favor of the foul play theory if you are honest with yourself about the lost theory inconsistencies. There is always the chance these girls got lost and were then eventually abducted. But in my opinion their lack of attempting help after 4:51 pm April 1st for the next 14 hours leads me to believe either their phones were taken from them. Or. This might be easily debunked. But is it possible there were photos taken and deleted from the phones and camera before the 99 taken on April 8th? Because surely there'd be no sign of these photos taken before the 8th unless competent law enforcement sought to look into potentially deleted files. The login pins on both phones were successfully typed in the first 4 days. So it would seem likely the girls had at least partial access to their phones. Maybe they werent kidnapped in the sense that we think of at gun point violently. Like some men were forcing them to stay with them off trail out of wifi service and threatened violence if a phone were used. All speculation, but that would make sense of why the phones were hardly ever used but the login attempts remained accurate. Again though maybe the girls were forced into giving up their login codes so whoever might have kidnapped them could delete what could have incriminated them. It doesn't make a lot of sense to me that someone could become so disoriented through hypothermia that they couldn't ever again remember their simple login. It is possible though. But it still doesn't explain away never taking a photo or video of anything sensible for over a week yet they logged in and out. To me it's clear these women couldn't openly use their phones or camera when they wanted. The technology usage of first worlders is minute to minute. The usage of people living in Panama would be here and there once or twice a day. That's how those pieces of technology were used after 4:51 pm. Once or twice a day. Panama is a dangerous place with a lot of murder. There are experienced murderers and shitty law enforcement. Those arguing the lost theory want to believe in it so bad for their own little ego trip or because they're lacking necessary context. I look at it as more of a virtue signaling to other reasonable explanation people looking for quick resolution. There was an alleged murderer in the US who was just charged and due to his being video recorded by his child victims. Had he kept the girls alive long enough to extract a login pin and social media password he could have erased the video evidence entirely. This to me is why the criminals in the Kris and Lisanne case were so preoccupied with the phone. The lost in the wood side would say why not destroy the phones, camera and backpack and be done with it. That happened to that Alex guy on that trail 5 years earlier. Disappeared into thin air. So it was treated like a crime. Had evidence of a body or belonging been planted that case wouldn't have been under the microscope. That's why I believe body parts and belongings were released back into the woods. In hopes to pass off the murders as human error. I think potential criminals woulda weighed this destroying all evidence option at first but were trying really hard to cover their tracks with the phone. Meanwhile most likely trying to blend in and contributing to the manhunt that first week. To make sure they weren't being incriminated. I also believe a third party would hold onto the phone while they eliminated all other evidence first. That spot where the possible sos was photographed was likely where the bodies were. One thing that does bother me about the foul play theory though is DNA on the phones and camera. Was there any DNA found or looked for? You would think it would be difficult to eliminate all DNA traces without some sort of noticeable damage. So strange though that the phones were just found neatly packed away. And if I remember correctly there was like some traces of edible snack in the bag. You would think in starvation that would be gobbled up. So many things make no sense and it's human nature to try and find a plausible answer. Some people dream up over the top scenarios, others downplay everything and want the most basic, reasonable explanation based on their own mundane human experience. To me most of everything on both sides cancels itself out or is inadequately explained. Except for the body parts found and the absence/lack of phone/camera use until the early morning hours of the 8th. Nothing can explain away these things for me. To argue otherwise and assume murderers arent intelligent enough or capable enough to cover their tracks is just downright naive. Anyway those are my 2 cents.
Thanks for an excellent write up! Really enjoyed reading it. Am actually couch bound because of severely injuring my ankle on a hike, oucchhhh. I acknowledge that mild injuries can happen even on marked trails if someone is distracted. But in that case there would be the other friend, in the case of Kris and Lisanne, and their phones. It is such a natural reflex to call your parents, or Miriam in this case, to notify them and ask for help to be arranged. But indeed, after two failed emergency calls, they just *seem* to have thought f. it. And put their phones away for the next 14 hours. This (still) seems absurd to me.. Unnatural behaviour for girls their age and in their situation. It isn't that hard to come up with possible Lost explanations from the comfort of our homes, but none of them seem reasonable to me. Yes there was strange DNA found on their belongings, as well as strange hair. Of three different people. But the Panamanian prosecutor never managed to properly investigate them or tie them to anyone.. Terrible!!! I wrote about it here if you are interested: www.koudekaas.blogspot.com
No way ...Feliciano gonzalez and all the gang were the real killers rip 2 them those criminals will pay their sin one day karma still has been as the only fate ..
I ask myself, if everything had been the same, except that this had instead been two young Dutch men, would they still have ended up dead? My guess is, maybe not. And then, that conclusion makes me believe, that someone spotted two young attractive girls, hiking alone in the middle of the jungle, and targeted them.
I am not sure if someone really just " spotted them and followed them "? I mean thats a trail?? Wouldnt the " predator " think there could be other tourist coming any minute???? Its a tourist trail i believe? Correct me if i m.wrong please
@@crystalthow5533 If you travel a lot, you'll know there are "trails", and they there are primitive paths. In very touristy areas in high season, trails can be quite busy. But if you take a more primitive path, and you get more than a couple miles from the trail head, these paths get less and less populated. My rule of thumb is, that the further you get from the trail head(or parking lot), the less people you see. It's really funny to test this theory in Yosemite or Yellowstone. All the hiking trails are quite busy with people the first mile or so. To get away from the people, start venturing further and further out. It's because most people aren't fit enough to do a super long hike, so they turn around earlier and go back.
The women were clearly unprepared for more than a walk in a park. I hike in the hills in England, very likely a lot easier conditions than in Panama, and i always wear proper hiking boots, long leggings (also in the summer), a hat of sorts, and have a waterproof backpack with 1-2L of water, snacks, lights, head lamp, reflectors, bandaids, extra socks, and an ankle support (due to previous injury). This is for hikes during the day spanning 3-6 h in duration. I do think criminal activity must have plaid a role as the evidence and lack of evidence does not match an accident.
Yes K&L were clearly only planning to do the 2-hour tourist trail and come back. Why would they decide to wander 12 hours into the jungle instead. You can't get lost, the trail is the trail. It has two directions, forward and back.
only call where to 112 and 911 nothing to there parents or boyfriend ? that doesn't match the backpack,the night photos....look like everything has been put there to make bieleve in an accident
that's an interesting thought but there is literal proof that Kris Kremers was bleeding from the head. (the full picture from the night-time photos was censored before it was released to the public) and yet she didn't use the bras or the backpack to soak up the blood.
I think whoever hurt them took their phones and staged the 911 calls. That or they killed one of the girls first then used the other to stage they were lost in the jungle? Shoot i almost think they could've been lost in the jungle but not alone?
Their parents mentioned they texted while they are in Panama. So them not texting while they are missing makes no sense. So clearly the night photos and the attempt emergency calls are not done by the two girls. Clearly there is a foul play.
I believe there was foul play and these girls didn't perish by accident. But how could the emergency calls be staged when they first dialed 112 (the emergency number in Europe) and only later 911, something a local wouldn't have known. If they were staged by a local they would only have called 911.
the accident itself was obviously not fatal seeing as both girls phones were calling emergency services shortly after. Also, if an accident did happen, it would have involved the two of them standing together and falling together. No one is suggesting they individually fell down a ravine.
I would fold up my clothes (and other items) in a neat fashion, and then put them in my bag when going swimming. So likely the picture of both girls in the water with the two (now deceased) boys are directly related to a possible murder on the girls. Maybe the keys were also in the bag but someone took them....
I also think the boy who was acting nervous (and later found dead?), so said his mom, had to cover up the bag and may also be the one manipulating photos on his room computer. If he was in a gang he was the weakest (link).
Henry Gonzales war es mit seinen 3 Kollegen und Osman V. Hatte das der Polizei gesagt und paar Wochen später ist er gestorben. Von den 4 Tätern ist auch einer gestorben José der vor dem Tod mot der Mutter von Osman zugegeben hat das sie die 2 Mädels umgebracht zuhaben und den Osman auch weil er mit der Polizei geredet hatte. José wurde mit Autoangefahren und ist dabei gestorben und es gab Fahrerflucht.
I hope this mystery gets solved one day. From everything I have seen by the parents and other people going to that path, I find it very difficult to believe the girls got lost on their own.
@@Roro-nz2jt they were likely not removed when hiking, it was found in the bag a week later, you dont know when they removed them and it is very very normal for a bra to be removed when sleeping because they are not comfortable, especially wire ones.
Good point ...the tour guide was alone in their room for 30 minutes..strange..do you think he could have been looking for stuff to put into the rucksack I.e passport,I srance card..odd things to take out on hike..I think he setting the scene to make it look like they had disappeared in the jungle..we only have the Panama family's word that girls never came back..stuff was taken from their room to make out they were dead then. ???
@@Roro-nz2jt I think if I was in a foreign country I would take things like passport and insurance cards with me, rather than leave them back at an apartment where they could be stolen (I had that happen in a hotel in ireland), but they also could have been planted later, but I guess everything would have been checked for fingerprints? They were also pictured with the backpacks on the day they went missing, so they had them with them. Its certainly a very strange story. I don't know enough details to accuse the tour guide, but he isn't the only person who knew they were going hiking. I also read that lots of drug related things happen in those forests, they could have come across a random person with bad intentions.
That was the tour guide. But yes, very odd. Also odd that he never met them before, but went to the police later in the evening to report them misding. Why not their host family??
Men hiking on their own go missing now and then as well. Overall it seems safer to hike at the very least with someone else when you go into wild nature or very desolate terrain...
I read somewhere that a dog they knew walked with them upon the trail and returned alone. But you would not cross a monkey bridge with a dog! So i do not think they crossed the bridge. The cut of her foot was straight and not ripped off. So it was chopped off! and: I think the tour guide did it. Look at his eyes in RUclips video “Dutch reporter in Panama to interview tour giide F” his pupils wide open at one moment. That’s because his brain recall the bad memory and picture it at the back of his eyes. Look at the RUclips video murder or accident ? from Peaked Interest. Look at 51:41 when a review about the tour guide is read. Only couples or Big group of men are positive. One woman alone was sexual attacked by him. And he told her to chop of her legs with his machete. And he has a preference for Northern European ladies. And look at a interview with him in video “Interview with guide F”. When the parents went back to Holland at 1:41. He is smiling at the reporter. Why you smile at such horrific case? Because she is blond too! And he want to do to her what he did to the girls. Also look at the video “Gone in a flash” from Truly Criminal at 5:24 at the guide “F”. He is standing at the hiking trail next to the mother from one of the girls. He walks a little bit away and makes a small bow. What if you where not the murderer? Then you stand next to her to support her. Showing your face in the camera. Nothing to hide. He did not! His brains again recalls the bad moments he did. Thats why his body makes a move that wasn’t necessary. In this kind off countries everybody wants a piece of the money pie. So many are involved in their missing. Sick world.
Hi Jor, yeh the owner of the Il Pianista restaurant said that their dog Blue went with the girls, but since the dog is not pictured in any of their photos, the consensus is by now that the dog was never really there by their side. As to why its owners would have made such a thing up, well that is an interesting question. The guide said some curious things but then again, he was never properly investigated and therefore he also never had the chance to be officially and reliably ruled out, based on top notch alibi verifications and forensic checks of his houses and stuff like that..
hope they find the bodies someone somewhere knows where they are i think all backpackers should carry a emergency tracker so if they get lost or something else least they would have a chance on finding them
Good point, yes they should. And when investing in far away travel destinations, which involve a jungle or a big stretch of wild nature, I would also invest in a satellite phone..
Hi, yes some people have seen those photos also. They haven't been shared online however. But I have been told by people who did view them, that these photos, including those taken on the summit of the Pianista trail, are the same type of selfies and landscape views as the photos taken with the Canon camera. Nothing new on the phone photos
Is it possible they brought with them extra set of brahs? Like they expected them to get sweaty and maybe uncomfortable on the hike and could switch to new clean comfortable ones? I'm no woman so I don't know, but I sometimes bring extra socks to switch when the first pair gets sweaty, moist and uncomfortable. Would guess something similar could happen with brahs that is so close/tight to the body.
Perhaps. But not sure that would make sense, given they planned for a short hike. Taking only a few hours. They didn't bring a compass, no flashlight, no bathing clothes, no towels, barely any food and drinks, no sunscreen, no mosquito spray. Bringing an extra set of bras may not have crossed their minds perhaps therefore? They thought they'd be back at their house by the end of the afternoon.
They probably took them off to sleep when they became lost. If one or both of the girls were injured, it might have been painful to keep wearing them or put them back on.
@@SisterJanet Probably, perhaps, I think, I would... None of it is any evidence. They probably weren't even lost. Lisanne closed the google maps app that first day's afternoon, why would someone 'lost' do that? Why would lost people not try to call their host family or parents for help. Why wouldn't they document landmarks along the way with their camera, if lost. Why wouldn't they stay put at some point; Sinaproc have declared that in all their years and experience, they never failed to find missing tourists in that agricultural stretch of nature.
@@scarletr.7753 I think before she set off she downloaded the route via the app so she had offline access. I do the same when I go hiking. At the point they got "lost" it was too late to regain a signal.
Where you need it most, there is no cellular coverage because it is expensive and not worth it for companies. Think about it. Because of greed, people die without a chance to ask for help.
I think they took off the bras and its normal. After few days in the jungle u sweat a lot, the weather is like raining and sunny all the time. Bras just starts scrapes and feel very unfocomfortable.
Jungla no se pierde nadie que ya visito el lugar y le enseñaron fotos computadora como llegar hasta adentro del sendero allí hubo celos y crimen obsesión pasional al ellas ir y conoser amigos y venir tomadas en cerveza se le reclamo amenazo y se les dijo ustedes así tomadas no pueden llegar a casa hospedaje ballan río a bañarse y quitarse goza con sus amigos el macho alfa allí enamorado se obsesuono le reclamo a los amigo y taxero los huyendo y las llevo al sendero y hospedarse en su casa les dio un par de cerveza ma's y les engaño yo iré a buscar todas sus cosas maleta en casa hospedaje por orden de los dueños que ustedes busquen otro hospedaje y vivirán en mi cabaña
I have to disagree about the bra's. I'm a girl myself and know that bra's get very uncomfortable after a while. You take them off and if it was just the two of them, I wouldn't have put them back on after either.
It's all subjective I guess. It will depend on so many factors. Where you are, how threatened or safe you feel, how big your breasts are, how revealing your top is, how painful a bra would be and what type of bra you are wearing, etc etc
@@scarletr.7753 yeah exactly. It does really depend on the situation they were in, but for the "lost in the woods for days" theory I think it's most likely they took their bra's off. But I do have to say I'm leaning more towards other theories than them being lost in the woods
The problem with the foot is that the coroner could not find any microscopic signs on that foot of tools or weapons. It did not look like a foot cut off with a machete, for instance. Therefore it is also technically possible that it just came loose from the tibia bone through natural decomposition...
In the early 70s when I traveled with a friend down to Mexico City Mexico, I noticed that women after certain time of the evening we're always escorted. We also visited a theater that was a mixture of entertainment which included gymnast/ acrobatics ,singers and strippers. The Peculiar thing about the strippers, in comparison to the United States ,was for their grand finale, the bra was the last article to be removed.. I found that the breast in South America were deemed as sacred. Maybe that's why the bras were packed neatly in their packs by somebody else other than the girls.
@@richievellalar3214 agreed. Unfortunately a lot of opportunities have been lost early on, because the Dutch were leaning back, allowing Panama to 'lead', and as such ruin evidence and missed countless research opportunities. The FBI didn't make that mistake in 2017, when American Catherine Johannet was killed in Bocas. They barged in and did their own research, quickly solving the case. They found a link btw between her murder and the death of Kris and Lisanne, but didn't further dive into this. It is simply too late in many respects to redo this invrestigation 😕
@@scarletr.7753 Anyone enter in the jungle, especially forest like this , no body dare to overnight, if they entered, I'm sure on same day they wanna exit the forest , because not much things they brought with them , on the first day they already trapped inside by someone. If you not sure about path I don't think so anyone would go inside ..... unfortunately their bad luck day , when they realise the plan didn't follow their ways , that day they should out from there ... It's a cold murdered..... someone trying to buried their file .... Tycoon
They took all the pictures of the two guys the were with off the internet immediately so that's something I know it. Both of those guys in the water picture are dead now to.
He needs to accept that his daughter was murdered and to DO something about it! He shouldn’t be sitting and talking! He needs to do something! Evidence is everywhere!! Americans like me can see it clear as day, why can’t he?
OMG, the girls were not murdered. They went hiking alone with very few supplies. They were very foolish in not listening to the locals. They went further than they were supposed to and ended up lost and injured. They weren't dressed for changing weather or having an appropriate water supply. The other family is at peace now knowing it was a accident.
@@Bella.216 murdered. Period 🔴 murdered murdered murdered. Their photos were photoshopped by Feliciano’s son to make it look like they went to Pianista. They didn’t. Lisanne was too sick anyway. Want proof I’m right? Look at their beach videos, see the background of “the mad tribesman”, yeah. Also look at the other pic of Lisanne with gang member behind her, see the 3 dots? Lisanne’s ankle was tattooed with 3 dots by that man. Identical 3 dots which mean PHOTOSHOPPED.
Is there a possibility that F came back down the trail and his son kept those girls captured in the jungle, why on earth would F go to the place they were living in without never even meeting them and searching the place without any police involved, what was he looking for, could it be possible?
It is something that should have been properly investigated, for sure. The fact that it wasn't is suspicious I think, but it is ultimately to blame on Betzaida Pitti and her shoddy investigation :(
The jungle is huge, there was no way to find them easily in the middle of that dense forest. Especially when you don't know if the individual is alive or not.
Los informes de la autopsia no se hicieron públicos. Pero hay personas que tienen acceso a las autopsias. El propio forense dijo a la prensa que cree que las chicas fueron asesinadas....
Sorry to tell the father but I was once walking through the bush, clambered over a rock and turned and tore a meniscus. I thought at that moment I’d be calling for a helicopter rescue because I could barely walk. Honestly, these ‘opinions’ of people suddenly become facts because they had their hands up in celebration a couple of hours earlier in a photo? In the last photo she *does* look tired and very much like anyone does after several hours of walking: tired, bored and ready for it to end. If only the girls had recorded some message of getting lost then all these armchair detectives would be explaining how the backpacks and folded bras all make sense again in that context.
@@scarletr.7753 While I've seen a number of videos about 'organ harvesters' and them making it back to town, all of those ideas have serious issues. That they make it back to town means that someone hauled their bodies back up the path - a single walkway as they continue to stress - that is 'well worn' (ie., lots of foot traffic.) So people harmed the girls and then carried them (you're not getting a vehicle along that path) back up into the woods, then another 8 kilometres into the woods and dumped them? And then played around with their phones all aiming to create some sort of outrageous alibi that they were lost in the woods? Or they never made it back down but were being held and for several days they had access to phones? The two girls were already pushing what they were probably comfortable with as non-experienced walkers. And so, my guess is a sprain or fall meant that they felt they needed assistance for the walk back up and out (the first emergency call) and, for whatever reason, they possibly looked at some immediate areas of higher ground and went off the track looking for reception. A short time later it was already starting to get dark and they'd missed a connection back to the path and ended up lost. From there it was several days of various attempts to contact emergency services while simply finding nothing that could bring them back to the track. All other theories have to stretch facts and circumstances to fit.
@@redastair Hi, yeh the most problematic part about making it back to town (which lines up with the statements of more than one witness), is that their phones never regained a connection with the network. Had they returned to town (walking on their own feet I mean here), you would expect to see reconnectivity. On the other hand; we know that the night photos were photoshopped to some degree and that the originals were overwritten by Pitti and her team. So who is to say that we and the NFI had access to the original, untampered phone log data? More questions than straight answers. Organ harvesting requires a professional network, for sure, including a hospital setting. It is not really the most logical scenario in this disappearance case. There is transport possible up until a certain height on the Pianista trail, but not the entire trail no. As for creating an outrageous alibi; that is really up to each and everyone to decide, how insane it really is to stage a large amount of strange night photos over the course of 3 hours. Some will say it is incomprehensible, others will say that it is peanuts really in terms of effort or planning, compared to what some infamous killers have done in the past. People get lost, but they don't usually stay lost in this area, according to Sinaproc. This is a complex case, where the evidence and remains found do not 100% explain an accident or Kris and Lisanne having gotten lost. Sinaproc meticulously went through the area for over a month and their director declared on camera that they were certain that Kris and Lisanne were not in that area (despite their bag and some bones later being found there anyway). Sinaproc dealt with lost tourists before and have declared that they always found them. Here many volunteers, locals and other tourists helped the searches, and they just were nowhere to be found. Then there are their particular use of their phones and camera, that arouses suspicion with some people. (I mean, why only start flashing the camera on day 8? Why not in the entire week before, when they were also lost and alone?). The state of their remains, the absense of 90+% of their remains and there is still a lot more to this story. People get lost and stay lost all the time, there is no doubt that it is easy to get lost. But in this particular case, things don't add up according to many people. Some say they were in a jungle, but people who live in Boquete have described the environment as highlands, aggricultural forest that is inhabitated and has cattle and farms all over the place. They specifically stress this is not regular jungle. As for being held in the woods; I wrote on my blog series about a German girl, a tourist, who was kidnapped and raped by three local rescue members in 2017 in Panama. It is a factual case, so clearly these things *can* happen. Info: this German tourist, Valentina, had gotten lost in the jungle of the Panamanian province of Veraguas near the El Bermejo waterfall, roughly 140 kilometers east of Boquete, and the three locals who abused her were part of the rescue operation. And they were said to have been drinking heavily when out looking for her. When they found her, they hid her in one of the wooden sheds in the jungle and managed to keep her hidden there from the other searchers for three days. In which she was raped and abused... One of her attackers ended up in hospital due to the wounds she gave him while trying to defend herself with a broken rum bottle. If one of the three thugs hadn't been bleeding so heavily in the arm, belly and thigh that he was at risk of bleeding to death, she may never have lived to tell the tale. The others fled with him and rushed him to hospital to save his life (and indirectly hers I believe). Things may have ended very differently for this brave young woman otherwise. So it is not that unheard of, although rare I suppose. Same region, same type of tropical forest, near same scenario. And she was not found by the larger search teams. Someone can actually disappear in such places, despite scores of people looking for her. And that a lone woman is never just safe, out there on her own. As for two young women to both have an accident and one not going out to look for help while the other stays put; that is more rare than it happening to a solo hiker. But at the end of the day, we don't have all the answers and are left to personal assessments of what is more or less likely to have taken place
@@scarletr.7753 Great response. I often (more than I should) watch Mr Ballen on RUclips and have come to realise that many times there will never be a satisfactory answer. I think whatever the reality of the situation for these young women it can only have been terrifying and miserable. To be found by 'rescuers' only for them to entrap and abuse is something I assume to belong only to fiction. Keep happy.
@@redastair To understand the murder theory, you need to do more than watch RUclips. It's very frustrating when that's all people do. Entire books have been written about this, there is an entire podcast where they actually went to Boquete and spoke to Feliciano. Yes there are far-out murder theories about organ harvesters, even cannibal Satanists, but they might as well be alien abductions. They are just random ideas, not based on any of the known facts of the case. Organ harvesters do operate in Mexico, but Mexico isn't Panama. They are not the real murder theory, they are a distraction. The real murder theory is that they befriended a local group of Panamanian men, who raped and murdered them, and Feliciano helped cover it up because one of them was his step-son. There is no reason to believe that making it back to town means killers had to kill them in town and drag their bodies whole back into the jungle to dismember them. They could dismember them where they killed them, and just take pieces into the jungle. Only small, easily transportable pieces were discovered. Or they could've made it back to town and then left town again with the men, for example to go swimming in the caldera. The murder theory doesn't require them to have made it back to town anyway. There are small indigenous trails coming off La Pianista, that only locals - and particularly tour guides - know about. These lead to other possible murder scenes, such as the caldera or Cuervo's house in Palo Alto, which is where Margarita Valenzuela said they were killed. Actually you can get a vehicle up a lot of that path, for about the first hour. Witnesses reported a red pickup truck going up after the girls. If you want to understand the real murder theory, visit some of the places that have done years of research, not just a twenty-minute crank RUclips video. Start with the blog of this channel koudekaas.blogspot.com
At this point he should just say all he knows! Just like Delphi and all the other cold cases to reignite interest and let the public take a look at it. Seems like all cases are more likely to be solved with more eyes
No, never. The Panamanian prosecutor, Betzaida Pitti, could be called negligent, incompetent or corrupt, whatever option you prefer. There was no criminal investigation: there were no persons of interest determined, nor investigated. There was no forensic investigation. So a tour guide like Feliciano may have stuck his nose in half a dozen aspects of this case, most notably being in their bedroom before alerting police, being the one who they supposedly had a meeting with the next day plus being the man whose workers and brother respectively FOUND and handled the backpack 10 weeks later, before handing it to police... Found very close to Feliciano's finca. But he was never investigated. His phone wasn't inspected. His whereabouts weren't checked. His computer searches weren't inventorized. His property wasn't forensically searched. Nothing.
@@scarletr.7753 Absolutely ridiculous! I really can't believe how terribly this story was investigated. These people (especially F) should have been questioned heavily, his property searched, etc. Same for the woman who gave them attitude at the school, and even the Dutch guys who were probably innocent but still every person they interacted with should have been looked into. To be honest, it's not too late to do that, it's harder now than 10 years ago, but still should be done anyway, the girls and their families deserve the truth. This is regardless if they just got lost or it was foul play (I lean towards the latter after reading all the research you did Scarlet). You should have been paid for all your work you have done and continue to do far better investigating than the actual investigators did! Apparently there is a more recent investigation someone wants to look at a nearby Dam that the river the bones were found in flows to, that Dam was never looked into (I think it's recent I forget where I saw it, have you heard about that?)
@@peterd4047 It really is ridiculous and outrageous. Worst part for me is that the Dutch were involved and tried to help solve the case, but were kept at arms length by the Panamanians. And accepted that. So not even the Dutch professionals overseeing the investigation could make any difference to it. I know. Also for guide F's own best interest, because now we will never know if he is innocent or not. He could have theoretically also been vindicated by a proper investigation. But I would have wanted to see a detailed map of every single mobile phone that went up and down that Pianista trail on April 1st. See exactly what F did with his phone, who he called, what he texted, what he looked up in search engines. Then forensically test his houses, his finca, his car, his son's car, his friends' houses. They were the ones who had a tour appointment with Kris and Lisanne and he was by his own admission the one who last saw them alive. The son and his friends even drunkenly made a similar admission in a local bar, but could walk free. Eileen, the German intern who was working at the language school was with the tour guide on Wednesday, weirdly going to their bedroom and going through their belongings there for a significant amount of time. She then fled the scene much earlier than planned: also never even interviewed by police. It is incredible really. Well ten years later, you cannot reliably interview them anymore. Too much time has passed for memories to be reliable anymore IMO. Juan contacted the Dutch NFI who did open a cold case not too long ago, but they closed the case again soon after and said there is no reason to reopen the case. It is hopeless; they do not want to cause any ripples in Panama and probably have no such power anyway. As for the dam, I think that came from the commercial book authors who wrote a coverup story for the tour guide and the prosecutor. Yeh... not sure that investigation is ever going to take place to be honest. I'd be surprised and especially surprised if they ever find something there. Too much time has passed
@@scarletr.7753 Thanks for the response, such a shame really. I can't believe, if anything, F wasn't at least asked why he was in their bedroom for 30 minutes the next day with that Eileen woman. Also, how was it know it was 30 minutes or is that just a rumor, and how did the local family let him in in the first place, it was their house afterall.
Are there people hiking here? I have many years of experience and EVERY time I go into the forests and mountains I take off my bra, always. It gets in the way, especially if I go to the mountains for several days. I had scary and dangerous moments in nature, and even then I took it off and didn’t put it on “to protect myself from the world.”
@@scarletr.7753 For me it’s not comfortable, the bra restricts movement, without it I can breathe and move more freely, it doesn’t press anywhere, I can't sleep with bra. Many of my hiking friends also wear sports jerseys.
If I were lost in a foreign (macho) country, in hostile wooded terrain and unsure who to run into, I would not rake off my bra. especially not when humidity would make the tanktop stick to my body... Still doesn't give us a good indication though what Kris and Lisanne did in that situation.
@@scarletr.7753 Ok, maybe ants were responsible for what happened in this case then, or bacteria? Don't the soft tissues of a body rot quite quickly if they are not protected somehow?
BIG question. Never satisfactory answered. Nothing that was done with those phones or camera after April 1st showed anything personal. No selfies, no notes, no videos, no audio, no nothing. Just sterile 112/911 attempts and totally anonymous and bizarre night photos. Of course, to write a draft SMS, the person handling the phone would have had to know DUTCH. There may have lied the problem.
I longed for the day when this case is fully solved. Not some half-baked investigation & conclusion. I believe if the Dutch authorities are presented with more compelling evidence, they would 💯 reopen the case to provide closure for the families.
Unfortunately the Dutch authorities have showed very little interest in this case, all in all. They were not leading in the investigation and haven't pushed much either. They know about new findings, but wrote in an email back that they are not interested in reopening the case, or see no reason for it. And that only Panama is capable of doing so anyway..
@@scarletr.7753 I see.. it's very sad to see this case being buried among the unsolved cases.🙁 So, even if the Dutch authorities are presented with new evidence which provides some leads or are compelling enough, they still will not push for a reopening of the case through international means? Because frankly, I believe the Panama authorities cannot be relied on to lead the case with accountability & transparency.
@@TEH_RIK Juan and I were shocked to see the swimming photo and Juan contacted the Dutch Prosecution about it. Turned out they already knew about its existence, told him it is a genuine, legit photo, but..... they do not believe it are Kris and Lisanne that are pictures with Henry's friends, who also were dead within a year. We disagree, but bottom line is that they Dutch officials just say that the only party able to reopen the case, is the Panamanian prosecution. And surprise surprise, they have no such interests or intentions. I think the only thing that can break this case wide open again, is the discovery of new hard evidence, or new witnesses speaking up :(
@@scarletr.7753 I agree. It's very frustrating that the ball is now on the Panamian prosecutions unless new hard evidence or witnesses surfaced. Anyways, I'll see what I can dig up over the next few months/years. And I'll be sure to let you know if I madd any breakthroughs. 🙂 Thank you once again for your insights Scarlet! 👍
RIP those ladies..such a young aged lives were taken away unjustly.. In this case , I personally believe they were victims of cannibalism. Specially coordinated work between tour guides or taxi drivers etc and tribes in deep woods who are waiting for unsuspected victims to come to them or getting lost somewhere or even dropped off by local drivers or tour guides only to alert cannibals... end hunt is on...who is gonna hear their screams? Cannibalism still exist unfortunately..
Why were the bags amd contents in perfect condition after apparently travelling downstream.the hike was straight forward and back,the dog made it back,foul play.
As a woman I would definitely take off my bra if I was stuck in a hot and sweaty jungle. Chafing is a big issue and causes a rash and itching as the bra rubs against sweaty skin. Neither girl needed the bra for support but rather for coverage. Why wear a bra if no one is around and you are alone?
There are so many variables though. Size of breasts for instance, type of bra, the level of perceived security out there, how cold it is at night. Not sure if that is true about Kris tbh, nót wearing a bra when you have decent sized breasts, while moving around in a humid environment, can also be uncomfortable and cause chafing issues. And were they truly alone? if you are in a hostile environment and can run into strangers at every turn, that concept is pretty subjective
I think 🤔 the landlord of the unit they rent are something strange 🙄 also the Tour guide. and knew exactly what happened to the two woman or maybe involved. And this case is purely Rape,Captive and Murdered. We need ditective conan. To investigate deeper.
The language school promised to arrange volunteer work at a children's school for them. But something went wrong there and we still do not know what exactly. Lisanne checked multiple times to be sure they could start work that Monday, Ingrid or staff even sent another confirmation email about this on the Friday, according to one of the parents, but on Monday they were unwelcome and sent away. Who's error was this? The Spanish school did not do what they promised? The children's school was unreliable? Did someone try to lure those girls to Boquete under false promises? Or did Kris and Lisanne somehow make an error in their planning? (I don't think so and neither do their parents think so). Then the Spanish school could not arrange replacement work for Kris and Lisanne soon after. Hence, why they started to plan hiking tours....
@salt and pepper unfortunately the school had all the information about their plans go to pianista. Easy one to look at the search history of the computer reading about their plans.
Hi, all the main photos are in the public domain. There were 470 photos on that digital Canon camera, of which 133 were taken on or after April 1st. 33 on the day they went missing and 100 night photos. We have seen mostly all of those photos and ppl behind the scenes saw all of them. Only file 509 is missing and unseen.
@@scarletr.7753 that is a complete lie. ALL photos were NEVER released 3 years ago. Even now, after april 2024, for the newest Book on the investigation with the ADDITIONAL never-before-shared photos from the CASE, we dont have ALL of them in public domain.
When blond women disappear in musulman countrys , some they sell them in the desert, a bedouin who was born abroad told me some storys, l know young women that were kidnapped in a market in Marruecos, Turky, walking in the street ,
There are some strange things regarding the disappearance...like the missing photo. But in the end I think Kris and Lisanne got overconfident, lost their way and perished in the jungle.
These girls were stalked and murdered just like hundreds of others! 3 witnesses including the taxi driver were murdered within a year and there's a high chance members of the cartel or traffickers were involved. The tour guide "Feliciano" could be linked to them since he knew where and when the girls were hiking, but he was never investigated. Panama is corrupt and lets these murders and disappearances slide to protect the tourism industry which makes up approx. 20% of Panamas GDP. 😠
Met een zwaardere boezem is het aan de andere kant vreselijk om zonder bh in een vochtige jungle rond te lopen. Er zijn zoveel varianten (bh-maat, kwaliteit van bh, persoonlijke voorkeuren).
@@manuelaveganantinataliste3361 Hmm, Kris ook? Denk ik een beetje anders over. Maar je hebt het strand in de jaren 80, toen iedereen topless rondliep nog. En je hebt een jungle in een vreemd (macho) land. De meiden waren al vermist toen. Het is allemaal persoonlijk, maar ik zou me als verdwaalde (of gekidnapte) toch extra kwetsbaar voelen in een dun topje zonder BH in een vochtige jungle. Ja heel erg verdrietig, die zaak van Catherine Johannet in Bocas. Als de FBI daar niet opgedoken was, dan was haar dood wellicht ook afgedaan als een 'verdwaling'..
Sera por que soy de America pero ni loca voy con esos locos a un sendero solitario ni me hago ver con ese viejo feli....y ese plinio el taxista no comparto viajes con personas desconocidas en otro pais en un taxi
They are both assumed dead yes. But technically, only the main bones of Lisanne's left leg were ever found, and one rib bone and half a pelvis from Kris.
The nightly photos prove nothing. The jungle is full of sounds at night, nature comes alive and sound carries for miles. It is completely dark, a darkness that we no longer know in the West. The sounds around must have terrified them. The flash with the camera must have served to scare off wild animals, just like with an open fire. After all, wild nocturnal animals avoid light. If something around them was moving in the bushes, they might also have been hoping to see what it was in a photo. The question, which potentially deadly predators are living in that area, has never been asked. Panthers? Jaguars? If one of them had a wound or was having her periods, the smell of blood can have been enough to attract one of them. Wounded animals are always the first victims, because vulnerable. Has one of them been bitten by a deadly snake? In the jungle you are lost when that happens. The picture of the head was just to see what the (light) wound was. Apparently one of them had hit her head. Nothing unusual on a trip through the jungle between rocks. When someone found the backpack, he may have decided to keep it and its contents. After all, people are very poor there. Later, when rumors started circulating about two missing girls, the finder who had the backpack at his home may have panicked and returned the backpack to where he had found it. And the two bras in the backpack? A trip through the humid and hot jungle can be very unpleasant. Everything sticks to the body. This is probably why the girls during their trip took off their bra and put it away neatly
Since you duplicated your comment, I will too :) Yes, very true, the jungle at night is a cacophony of sound. It was pretty dark at night, initially even with a New Moon but later on the foliage and the trees and the lack of light pollution from nearby civilization will have made it seem incredibly dark as well. As for scaring off wild animals; there was not one sign of an animal (or a dog for that matter) on any of the photos. I see that they may have scared them off successfully then, but over three hours of making flash photos is both a long time and at the same time a short one, considering they must have feared animals at 10 pm and midnight as well, for instance. Or at 5 am. But no photos were taken then. And if that were the case, why did they only start this habit on the 8th night? How about the whole week prior, or the days after? I wrote a lot about this in my blog posts (koudekaas.blogspot.com/) specialists from the area did weigh in on the wild animal topic and have said that the sight of a jaguar or puma is incredibly rare there. It was 20 years ago that a cow was last killed by such a wild cat. They are rare and they avoid humans like the plague, for good reasons. Also, there is no evidence for wild animals. The bones that were found showed no microscopic animal claw or teeth marks. The backpack and the jeans shorts and the shoes that were found had no damage, no tearings, no blood, nothing. So without any actual evidence, the jaguar stories are just fairy-tales imo. Where do you see the wound in that night photo? Thousands of people have stared at that photo by now, nobody can point out an actual wound. Any hints of darkness under the hair is most likely the shadow effect of the flashlight. Again, ' apparently', but there is no actual evidence for this. As for the backpack, yeh I have heard that theory go round, especially on places like Reddit, but think about it; on April 5th there was already a $2500 reward, which was quickly increased to $30.000 and then to $40.000 for the golden tip. Locals have said that people live there from $10 a day, and the native people sometimes even from $1 a day. So what sort of an incentive must it have been to be able to receive $40.000? The locals knew about the disappearance as the guide has a finca in Alto Romero and has informed them, it were also the native people who helped find the bones. Nobody can keep up that they are some sort of Papua New Guinean tribes people, far away from civilization. There is only about 25 kilometers between Alto Romero and Boquete and they frequently go back and forth. It makes no sense to me therefore that someone would find that bag, hold onto it, then plant it again (??) for someone else to find (someone from Alto Romero) and to give away the potential for a life changing reward. The $83 were also not taken out of the bag after all. Anyway, we have completely different views on this case I think
@@scarletr.7753 Flash can have been used as a distress signal for a passing airplane. As sound goes far at night, maybe they have heard noises from a far away farm or village? Who knows? The light points you see in the nocturnal pictures are simply insects captured into the flash light. In the tropic, you are eaten alive by insects when you are not protected. They are NOT stars. For that you need a shutter speed of at least 15 seconds or even more. They seem standing at a cliff and are flashing into the distance. All of these pictures seem to be taken at the same location and aimed in the same direction. Look, someone who would just have overwhelmed or murdered two girls would not betray his location by flashing 90 times by night at the same place. No those persons wanted desperately to be discovered (or chase away something) !
Hey, I answered this same comment twice already, you keep posting the exact same long question post all over my channel so I have to remove one or two now.
@@lucdevincke2055 Not that many airplanes fly over that route at night and it would still not explain 3+ hours of ongoing photo taking. Yeh the noises is possible but then the question remains why they never took any such photos for attention from April 1-7 or after April 8th. Oh c'mon, those light points can be anything from water drops to water mist to dust particles, but not insects. If that location was betrayed, why have we not seen the location identified by now already? Nobody has come forward with photo comparison evidence for this night photo location. These photos only show some trees high up in the sky and some generic rock surfaces. Extremely vague. Anyway, thanks for your thoughts, don't spam my entire channel with the exact same messages please :)
I feel for those girl’s parents. Nobody should ever have to go through a horror such as this. I hope some day they can get some answers.
I think the parents are done with the whole thing. Two Dutch women wrote a book, "Lost in the Jungle." It's been released this month, I believe. They contacted the parents beforehand just to let them know they were writing the book so they wouldn't be surprised when it was published. The parents really weren't interested in hearing about anything they had to say.
@@Suzanne1999 I kind of don’t blame them. Can you imagine how painful that must be to hear about? Here’s what they know for sure: their daughters are gone. And the title of the book may insult them, given that they may not believe that their daughters perished because they got lost in the jungle.
@@livmilesparanormalromanceb6891 Actually, it's interesting you say this. There's some legality -- I can't remember now -- but way back when, the Kremers agreed to stop pursuing the case and accept the lost theory put out by Dutch and Panamanian officials. Of course now we know that is false. With all the evidence that's been found out since 2014 to support abduction, the case is now experiencing a renewed interest in solving it. Why two Dutch women thought they should write this book, I have no idea. Not surprisingly, the book is getting terrible press. It's crap; don't waste your money.
Unfortunately i am sure they will never know the truth of what happened to their girls. They unfortunately
made a mistake by venturing out in the jungle alone with no guide or anyone to protect them. But you are
right parents should never have to go through the pain that they have which they will take to their own end
of their lives, its so sad and so tragic.
Any up date?
This case had been botched by the authorities since the start! For me the head of the sneak is in the school with that Director that lured the girls to Panama , only to reject them and change the date of the start of the school for the girls!! This crime was a crime made trough a cooparative effort , the kidnapping etc
I feel so bad for the parents. How hard must it have been for the father to talk about the logistics of his daughter's remains and the questions surrounding it. You can see the pain in his eyes.
It is horrible isn't it. Those poor parents. In the Kremers family's case I feel things have been made even worse for them by the way they have been treated by case officials. And still are! They have been cast aside as trouble makers, when all they did was question the lax and slow police work, the incomplete and shoddy investigation and things like that. Here Hans seems to want to tell more about the details he knows, but the woman leading the investigation told him not to share anything with the public at that stage. Considering how the investigation ended, I feel even worse for these poor families who tried to shake doors that were just left closed for them :( Shame on the people who have tried to paint these families in a bad light (they know who they are)
they were killed on bestgore
@@ronaldchoo5586 really!?
@@ronaldchoo5586 Huh? Please elaborate.
@@ronaldchoo5586 Bullshit. That was Dane Louisa Jespersen, 24, and Maren Ueland, 28, murdered in Morocco. I do not recommend anyone watch that vile video.
I find it very sad what happened to the two girls, no question about it! But: the girls had no accident, they were caught, kidnapped, abused and killed! Unfortunately! And by far in vain ... I hope the two girls have at least found their peace! 😟😢
Ok
All evidence found scattered around the place and in strange conditions and found on different times, but yet always one name keeps popping up when there's something found ... that guy in this video (the tour guide) , who is always the first to say there's nothing left to investigate they are dead so stop investigating. Something is telling me he's covering up for some one, probably for his son that knew the two guy's that met the girls during the hike and also both died in the same year. When two girls die in a so called missing persons case, and 3 guy's that were directly involved die in the same year. Well, you don't have to be a Sherlock Holmes to know something is up. Especially in a country that is plagued by illegal organ businesses, sex trafficking and drug gangs. But that guy, he's creepy as fucked and not who he portrays to be what he is.
Yeh, it is all swept under the carpet. Drownings happen all the time there apparently. Even when the victims lie in shallow water and could have survived by simply lifting their heads. Nothing to see here people, just move along.
@@scarletr.7753 Good advice!
Cease all tourist travel to Panama.
Teach the country & tourism industry ,to properly investigate, until the killer is found & destroyed, rather than sit on information & hide a serial killer or killers!
The photo of the girls at the summit show two women who are clean, not sweaty....not dirty or otherwise looking like they just trekked through a jungle . They both looked much too clean to have just completed a jungle walk to the summit of a mountain. Those photos make no sense at all.
I heard a rumour that authorities took matters into their own hands and killed the perpetrator or perpetrators because going around killing tourists is bad for business and could do irreparable damage. I can see that happening with how corrupt that while area is.
I realize it is kinda off topic but does anybody know of a good site to watch new series online ?
This poor guy :( my heart goes out to them, and I truly hope they find answers one day. ❤️
they were killed on bestgore
@@ronaldchoo5586 nooo
Its great that you have translated this into english. Much appreciated.
Thanks Max
Feel sorry for these parents :( grief compounded by frustration
It is a pity that this case, although it was widely publicized, was not properly investigated. The blame for all the lost time in search of the girls, irretrievably lost evidence and misinterpreted events of what happened by the Panamanian authorities.
In my opinion it was enough investigated. I dont say , it was perfect investigated (Panama is much more poor then first world countries... so the investigators didnt make everything perfect.. for instance : that one foto Lisanne took was probably really deleted by accident, and not by purpose, by one of the investigator.. he was simply not as well an expert in a poor country, as someone in a rich country can be). But other than that, they did quiet a good job. And i agree with their results... its the most plausible result in my opinion. Sure its not as spectacular as the people love to hear ''it has to be murder!'' ... i understand that. But its the most plausible. Unfortunately the layman people didnt know a lot of physics and chemistry.. so when they read ''one bone seem to be bleached'' , they immediately think ''someone did that'' ... Its exhausting for me, to explain everyone of them what they should have learned in undergrade school: that certain chemicals from the nearby vulcano (Banu) makes sulfuracid-rain (espescially in months) also when a bone is on air, and on the sun by chance... that one bone gets bleached.. While other bones which are partly covered in soil or water, look different. Thats only one thing - dont want to write a book here, to explain everything the laymans believe to ''found suspicious'' ...
Sure we will never have all answers. Thats why i said : ''enough investigated'' .. we have enough answers, i think. We dont have the answers we would love to hear ''it has to be murder! ... we need to find the criminals !'' ... Yes... we dont have this. But we really know a lot. We just dont like the answers.
Poor people. So unfair how kind good people often fall into bad places whilst trying to build a better world for us all
Bester Kommentar!!! ❤
hundred of unanswered questions will remain unanswered in this case... This is haunting me..seriously
Feliciano was in in it for sure, the parties involved had some sort of system going, probably even some cops too, or higher up, sex trafficking or maybe their own little psychotic game. Lost and died is an explanation for the mindless masses. Obvious evil and sinister work is at play here. Heart goes out for the girls and all loved ones 🙏
sex trafficking being botched, and turned into organ trafficking after a lose end (forgot his name) was drowned.
At least 2 of the guides who "helped" with the search were in on it.
Im convinced
If it was foul play, Feliciano would be the likely suspect. However, I believe that he was murdered a couple of years back? The best and most logical assessment is the video produced by the Daily Beast which can be viewed on RUclips. The whole situation is really sad, and, we'll probably never know what happened to these beautiful young women?
@Christopher Bingham I wrote that comment before I had more information. I'm convinced that Feliciano was involve in this. Many of the other perpetrators are dead, dying of mysterious circumstances.
My theory on why Feliciano is still alive - he ratted on his cohorts.
The others were killed probably by Panamanian authorities in order to avoid a trial and adverse publicity that will kill their tourist business. Third world country = frontier justice! Bottom line - don't go to Panama!
I commend you on this, can't even to imagine the sheer terror those two beautiful girls went through, never even knew about this until it came up on my utube feed, can't express how sad I feel for the parents without any answers, it's definitely MURDER, 💔
The parents must be devastated... Hope the girls will rest in peace
Sie wurden ermordet, aus welchen Gründen auch immer...auf jeden Fall war es definitiv *kein* Unfall!!! Und die Eltern sind leider mit dem Mann den Pianista hochgestiegen, der genau weiß, was Sache ist! Feliciano weiß ganz genau, was mit den beiden Mädels geschah! Es tut mir leid, von Herzen leid, das man als Eltern sowas erleiden muss. Aber was wirklich geschah, werden wir nicht mehr erfahren!
R.I.P. Kris und Lisanne! 🙏🕯️🕊️
Poor dad is crying inside
I am very very sorry for the lost .... This made me cry. These young beautiful lively ladies didnot deserve this. They and their parent would never rest in peace.... This is torning them apart
These two girls were beautiful !
For sure it’s foul play !
Sadly ....
The theory of an accident is imposible. No accidente ends with a few little bones found . Es obvio que todo fué armado. Es básico. Típica escena armada. Demasiado preparada. Qué injusticia!!! .
At least I saw many comments (from females) saying bras could be extremely uncomfortable in such humid environment and there is no point keep wearing it anyway unless you have bigger breast (which is not the case here and their bras don't look like sports bras neither)
Agree with sweat etc they could be very uncomfortable, so the fact that they were not on, doesn’t prove that they met foul play. Presumably if it had been a sexual assault why would they have been found in the bag anyway?
And you can use a bra as a water filter to remove very small insects.
i think all the time this happened with the people being followed as soon as they are visible,these girls were subjected of foul play,nothing,i mean nothing can explained why items were found miles! away from the point of their dissapearence,the back pack in prime conditions? photos deleted?their bras?one of the girls short not with her? it is terrible that this continue happening and nobody it's never found accountable,i'm peruvian and i have guided ladies in my country to trails and turistic towns and villages,just hurt so much to know this can happen,my condolances to the families,blessings to all.
I've been thinking a lot about this case and Kris&Lisannes fate... I strongly believe they met foul play, but it's so frustrating no concrete evidence was found, that gives a conclusion to all the speculation. :(
I wonder if the river bank has been followed and searched at all after the pelvic bone was found... I don't really believe in Jaguars eating up two almost whole skeletons and skulls even IF the girls bodies were in the jungle/the river. It all makes no sense...
They were killed, everyone knows it. But the murderers are still free and continue their lives. Everything was made to look like the girls had disappeared, but they were killed in a planned manner. Unfortunately, they were kidnapped, raped and their organs were sold.
My condolences to Kris Kremers and Lisanne Froon’s parents. Since hearing about this case, I have obsessively watched each and every possible version of events, that ended in those two beautiful souls demise. This case needs to be reopened and thoroughly investigated. Anyone else having visions or dreams of this case?
The pressures on this man and his partner perhaps get overlooked, caught in the strange unreality of a childs disappearance thousands of miles away and with little communication from that country's authorities they stand there waiting, bystanders in a very personal horror story.... I do wonder whether it still has that touch of unreality about it for them, with so many key questions left unaddressed and unanswered can there be any real closure?
--------------------------------
"..Behind a Tree Trunk, almost Under it,"
You read that description, and see the photograph of the finders stood over it, and ask the obvious question - how does this boot(and its foot) get from a supposed journey down the river to being in this strange and unlikely position? Behind and almost under a tree trunk on the riverside somewhere, you might argue some animal carried it there, but is it coincidence that the tree trunk is an easily identifiable feature and would work to protect and hide the boot until a search party coming down the river thinks to walk over to this unremarkable tree trunk (or log) and inspect it.
Perhaps I can read too much into its lucky find here, but then when Hans Kremer's independently points out the strangeness of his daughters fastened shorts found while her hip-bone is found kilometres downstream you do have corroboration of your queries here. Kremers himself is clearly an astute man, very perceptive and was able to spot some of the odd elements to the findings early on.
But as i just happened to read a new entry on your blogs first page you print out an autopsy report on the few found remains which reveals the pathologists results of their inspection.
And the report from them that Lisanne's few remains (leg bone) showed the signs of "Root" bleaching from almost certainly being buried in a shallow grave is stunning if true, and I have no reason to think it isn't if this report is genuine. But why is it that no one picked up on this detail in the report...? It turns the story upside down, was it suppressed perhaps, or is the case that no one picked up on this up until now? And is this result from the bone found in June, or the ones found in late August ...?
Hi David, yeh I have a lot of empathy (and sympathy) for Hans Kremers. He has been through so much. Not just the immeasurable loss of his daughter, but also fighting against officials, against the Dutch prosecution, the Panamanian officials, hiring his own lawyer, dealing with months of delay for simply receiving a DNA result for the bones that were found. It goes on and on. having to refuse receiving his daughter's bones because accepting them would equal a stop to the investigation. He was pushed aside as a troublemaker by the Dutch police, ignored. I understand from news articles that the Kremers still have many questions left.
Yeh those are way too rational, common sense questions. (And how come some parts ended up upstream?) I've not heard a good explanation for it either. Like so many questions that have been ignored. Pitti will have her own commercial book out next year (no approval for this from the families of the girls), so we may hear more on this perhaps in time to come.. I wonder how that photo of the men and the tree trunk and the shoe made it to the Panamanian media so quickly. Before the parents even heard about it (same for the bones, Betzaida paraded them on camera before the parents were informed a well).
Yes the new info about root markings comes from Romain, who published the partial autopsy findings, which were leaked to him. Just like the ball of skin, these details could have huge possible implications, but are as good as ignored in this case. People rather discuss Blue the dog. The autopsy report was never made public. I think that is why it was never picked up. And Romains blog is in French and not everybody knows about it.. It were the leg bones, from memory, so the ones found in late August.
@@scarletr.7753 Hi Scarlet! The remains and autopsy side of this were things I didn't pay all that much attention to until very recently. When you have a disappearance case like this then just about anything could have happened to the deceased bodies, who can say. But I was passed a link by Mutinyonethekitkat to 'Imperfectplan', where he undertakes a forensics study of the remains and his research on the background of the science of it all was so very impressive you can't fail to have your views altered and expanded on the condition the remains were found in and what it all must mean. His essay is hard going to begin with, but extremely rewarding for anyone with an interest in this disappearance. I realise you added it to your blog and looked at some of it but I will add it here for anyone who is interested in the forensics of decomposition and how it reflects the finds made in Panama: imperfectplan.com/2020/07/02/kris-kremers-lisanne-froon-panama-bleached-bones/ It's heavy going to begin with, but stay with it and you _will_ be rewarded.
------------------------------------
These autopsy reports from Romain, I think I am right in believing they would be from the late August finds? If so observations on "Root" bleaching would fit the peculiar observation of the skin found with it. I just cannot understand why it is this detail has never made it out until now....
If it was suppressed then it adds more weight to the suspicions of a general cover-up going on, but if we are thinking on the idea that Lisanne was buried then a new set of questions arise. I imagine for this "Root£ bleaching effect to take place then it would take a few weeks for it to happen, meaning if the observation and the report is truthful she had to have died early into the Disappearance. Both of them. And someone has had enough privacy to do all of this without it being noticed.
I do wonder what else is out there being suppressed.
i would say and go with investigation in humans organs trafficking direction ...dont know why but i feel like that and also villagers involved with one of the girl backpack-they know i think much more than thay said...
You have a point
To Scarlett. You have done a tremendous amount of work on this case. I only heard about this horrific tragedy 3 days ago. I have read a day's worth of your work. In the beginning of my own research I was more on the fence and receptive to the lost in the woods theory. In general it would be the most likely scenario. But as you've clearly argued in all of your work, this is no ordinary disappearance. I have spent a lot of time on the 'lost' theory because I feel that it should be 100 percent ruled out before claiming things we have no proof for. But I definitely lean foul play. If the facts of this case are to be believed there are just too many coincidences for it to be simply getting lost. Even though getting lost and succumbing to the elements would be a likely scenario, I think the conspiracy theory here is actually coming from those who want blame inexperienced yet intelligent and cautious women. Like how do these foul play deniers explain Lisanne's rolled up ball of skin and foot in boot with skin just lying undisturbed for Feliciano to find right after all that reward money was offered? Kris' bleached pelvic bone? I've l heard the rebuttals and they're extremely weak. The thing about the getting lost theory is it makes sense until you familiarize yourself with the trail. It's straightforward. Hard to deviate from. There's also traffic. The injury theory makes little sense as both girls would have to be injured to the point of being unable to walk. Highly unlikely and as evidenced in the walk along videos there's nowhere along the path the girls could have got that severely injured before their first emergency call. The phone usage, or lack thereof, after 4:51 pm for me is the most damning thing. Their first night lost alone in the woods and neither turns their phone on again for 14 hours? I get that it would be intelligent to conserve battery power. I just don't believe anybody in that situation would or could sit in pitch black cool as a cucumber for 7 days straight. They couldn't have been that far away at 4:39 the time of their first emergency call. They had no reason to conserve their battery power if they believed they could probably hike back day 2 first thing. To me it is supposing way too much to say both girls were injured to the point of not being able to call for help on the trail. It's too much to say one couldn't walk or try to crawl back to Boquette for help. The girls did not send one pending message to loved ones that would automatically send if they happened upon service. They left no photos or video messages for 11 days with battery power. And photo 509 was deleted manually off a computer unless some absolute miracle took place. The conspiracy theorist here is the one lacking context making general assumptions. The ones who want to believe Panama is no more dangerous than their comfortable first world community. It's really hard not to be biased in favor of the foul play theory if you are honest with yourself about the lost theory inconsistencies. There is always the chance these girls got lost and were then eventually abducted. But in my opinion their lack of attempting help after 4:51 pm April 1st for the next 14 hours leads me to believe either their phones were taken from them. Or. This might be easily debunked. But is it possible there were photos taken and deleted from the phones and camera before the 99 taken on April 8th? Because surely there'd be no sign of these photos taken before the 8th unless competent law enforcement sought to look into potentially deleted files. The login pins on both phones were successfully typed in the first 4 days. So it would seem likely the girls had at least partial access to their phones. Maybe they werent kidnapped in the sense that we think of at gun point violently. Like some men were forcing them to stay with them off trail out of wifi service and threatened violence if a phone were used. All speculation, but that would make sense of why the phones were hardly ever used but the login attempts remained accurate. Again though maybe the girls were forced into giving up their login codes so whoever might have kidnapped them could delete what could have incriminated them. It doesn't make a lot of sense to me that someone could become so disoriented through hypothermia that they couldn't ever again remember their simple login. It is possible though. But it still doesn't explain away never taking a photo or video of anything sensible for over a week yet they logged in and out. To me it's clear these women couldn't openly use their phones or camera when they wanted. The technology usage of first worlders is minute to minute. The usage of people living in Panama would be here and there once or twice a day. That's how those pieces of technology were used after 4:51 pm. Once or twice a day. Panama is a dangerous place with a lot of murder. There are experienced murderers and shitty law enforcement. Those arguing the lost theory want to believe in it so bad for their own little ego trip or because they're lacking necessary context. I look at it as more of a virtue signaling to other reasonable explanation people looking for quick resolution. There was an alleged murderer in the US who was just charged and due to his being video recorded by his child victims. Had he kept the girls alive long enough to extract a login pin and social media password he could have erased the video evidence entirely. This to me is why the criminals in the Kris and Lisanne case were so preoccupied with the phone. The lost in the wood side would say why not destroy the phones, camera and backpack and be done with it. That happened to that Alex guy on that trail 5 years earlier. Disappeared into thin air. So it was treated like a crime. Had evidence of a body or belonging been planted that case wouldn't have been under the microscope. That's why I believe body parts and belongings were released back into the woods. In hopes to pass off the murders as human error. I think potential criminals woulda weighed this destroying all evidence option at first but were trying really hard to cover their tracks with the phone. Meanwhile most likely trying to blend in and contributing to the manhunt that first week. To make sure they weren't being incriminated. I also believe a third party would hold onto the phone while they eliminated all other evidence first. That spot where the possible sos was photographed was likely where the bodies were. One thing that does bother me about the foul play theory though is DNA on the phones and camera. Was there any DNA found or looked for? You would think it would be difficult to eliminate all DNA traces without some sort of noticeable damage. So strange though that the phones were just found neatly packed away. And if I remember correctly there was like some traces of edible snack in the bag. You would think in starvation that would be gobbled up. So many things make no sense and it's human nature to try and find a plausible answer. Some people dream up over the top scenarios, others downplay everything and want the most basic, reasonable explanation based on their own mundane human experience. To me most of everything on both sides cancels itself out or is inadequately explained. Except for the body parts found and the absence/lack of phone/camera use until the early morning hours of the 8th. Nothing can explain away these things for me. To argue otherwise and assume murderers arent intelligent enough or capable enough to cover their tracks is just downright naive. Anyway those are my 2 cents.
Thanks for an excellent write up! Really enjoyed reading it. Am actually couch bound because of severely injuring my ankle on a hike, oucchhhh. I acknowledge that mild injuries can happen even on marked trails if someone is distracted. But in that case there would be the other friend, in the case of Kris and Lisanne, and their phones. It is such a natural reflex to call your parents, or Miriam in this case, to notify them and ask for help to be arranged. But indeed, after two failed emergency calls, they just *seem* to have thought f. it. And put their phones away for the next 14 hours. This (still) seems absurd to me.. Unnatural behaviour for girls their age and in their situation. It isn't that hard to come up with possible Lost explanations from the comfort of our homes, but none of them seem reasonable to me. Yes there was strange DNA found on their belongings, as well as strange hair. Of three different people. But the Panamanian prosecutor never managed to properly investigate them or tie them to anyone.. Terrible!!! I wrote about it here if you are interested: www.koudekaas.blogspot.com
No way ...Feliciano gonzalez and all the gang were the real killers rip 2 them those criminals will pay their sin one day karma still has been as the only fate ..
He should submit to a lie detector test.
@@mkkrupp2462 definitely im quiet sure forensic evidence r still in the cave near his ranch
I ask myself, if everything had been the same, except that this had instead been two young Dutch men, would they still have ended up dead? My guess is, maybe not. And then, that conclusion makes me believe, that someone spotted two young attractive girls, hiking alone in the middle of the jungle, and targeted them.
A young British man has gone missing in the region before. The fact these two were female, so young and naive may have contributed to their fate.
2 young men would probably be safe.
One young man? No, they can still benefit monetarily from trafficking males for their organs, and robbing them
I am not sure if someone really just " spotted them and followed them "? I mean thats a trail?? Wouldnt the " predator " think there could be other tourist coming any minute???? Its a tourist trail i believe? Correct me if i m.wrong please
@@crystalthow5533 If you travel a lot, you'll know there are "trails", and they there are primitive paths. In very touristy areas in high season, trails can be quite busy. But if you take a more primitive path, and you get more than a couple miles from the trail head, these paths get less and less populated.
My rule of thumb is, that the further you get from the trail head(or parking lot), the less people you see.
It's really funny to test this theory in Yosemite or Yellowstone. All the hiking trails are quite busy with people the first mile or so. To get away from the people, start venturing further and further out. It's because most people aren't fit enough to do a super long hike, so they turn around earlier and go back.
Very sad what happened to these girls, but on the other hand... How dumb can you be?
The women were clearly unprepared for more than a walk in a park. I hike in the hills in England, very likely a lot easier conditions than in Panama, and i always wear proper hiking boots, long leggings (also in the summer), a hat of sorts, and have a waterproof backpack with 1-2L of water, snacks, lights, head lamp, reflectors, bandaids, extra socks, and an ankle support (due to previous injury). This is for hikes during the day spanning 3-6 h in duration. I do think criminal activity must have plaid a role as the evidence and lack of evidence does not match an accident.
Agreeing with everything you said
Yes K&L were clearly only planning to do the 2-hour tourist trail and come back. Why would they decide to wander 12 hours into the jungle instead. You can't get lost, the trail is the trail. It has two directions, forward and back.
only call where to 112 and 911 nothing to there parents or boyfriend ? that doesn't match
the backpack,the night photos....look like everything has been put there to make bieleve in an accident
It's foulplay... if they were just lost etc their clothes are still there.. but nothing.. just the bag bras etc
If an accident Im sure the bras would have been used as a bandage, brace or a wipe to soak up blood etc yet they weren't.
that's an interesting thought but there is literal proof that Kris Kremers was bleeding from the head. (the full picture from the night-time photos was censored before it was released to the public) and yet she didn't use the bras or the backpack to soak up the blood.
Because she was death!!!@@interstellarlapisthecccp4946
I think whoever hurt them took their phones and staged the 911 calls. That or they killed one of the girls first then used the other to stage they were lost in the jungle? Shoot i almost think they could've been lost in the jungle but not alone?
Def staged.
Their parents mentioned they texted while they are in Panama. So them not texting while they are missing makes no sense. So clearly the night photos and the attempt emergency calls are not done by the two girls. Clearly there is a foul play.
They met someone
I believe there was foul play and these girls didn't perish by accident. But how could the emergency calls be staged when they first dialed 112 (the emergency number in Europe) and only later 911, something a local wouldn't have known. If they were staged by a local they would only have called 911.
What are the odds of two women having fatal accidents at the same time🤔? Obviously there was foul play involved.
the accident itself was obviously not fatal seeing as both girls phones were calling emergency services shortly after. Also, if an accident did happen, it would have involved the two of them standing together and falling together. No one is suggesting they individually fell down a ravine.
I have a suspicion they skinny dipped at the end of their hike to relax for a bit and were confronted during that, hence everything being in the bag
No that was photoshopped by Feliciano’s son. Look at the photos .. it’s all photoshop.
I would fold up my clothes (and other items) in a neat fashion, and then put them in my bag when going swimming. So likely the picture of both girls in the water with the two (now deceased) boys are directly related to a possible murder on the girls. Maybe the keys were also in the bag but someone took them....
And in 2018 another murder on a woman in Boquete with a blunt object. Likely Lisanne´s foot was also hit and broken with a blunt object.
I also think the boy who was acting nervous (and later found dead?), so said his mom, had to cover up the bag and may also be the one manipulating photos on his room computer. If he was in a gang he was the weakest (link).
So my question would be; who are the persons still alive/ left in this gang?
@@wyzeyzere
The first time I saw those photo's I thought they looked manipulated compared to the ones of them at the beach
Someone must to ask FBI goes to PANAMA to solve this case once and for all.
What’s the US to do with it? The girls were Dutch.
@@mkkrupp2462 are you politician ? If no then look a box from outside
Ik sta helemaal achter Hans Kremers.
Why did they not send an SMS to the parents?
Henry Gonzales and his gang killed them I think!
The local tourist guide is questionable !!!
sometime silly mistakes have the most horrible consequences. i feel sorry for them. maybe at least the truth will come out someday...
It's all very strange
Henry Gonzales war es mit seinen 3 Kollegen und Osman V. Hatte das der Polizei gesagt und paar Wochen später ist er gestorben.
Von den 4 Tätern ist auch einer gestorben José der vor dem Tod mot der Mutter von Osman zugegeben hat das sie die 2 Mädels umgebracht zuhaben und den Osman auch weil er mit der Polizei geredet hatte.
José wurde mit Autoangefahren und ist dabei gestorben und es gab Fahrerflucht.
I hope this mystery gets solved one day. From everything I have seen by the parents and other people going to that path, I find it very difficult to believe the girls got lost on their own.
Bras are sweaty and uncomfortable, it is the first thing I would take off in a hot rainforest. Not many women could sleep in a bra.
Not many women would,d take their bras off when hiking or walking...they were off because they didn't need them anymore..they had been murdered.
@@Roro-nz2jt they were likely not removed when hiking, it was found in the bag a week later, you dont know when they removed them and it is very very normal for a bra to be removed when sleeping because they are not comfortable, especially wire ones.
Good point ...the tour guide was alone in their room for 30 minutes..strange..do you think he could have been looking for stuff to put into the rucksack I.e passport,I srance card..odd things to take out on hike..I think he setting the scene to make it look like they had disappeared in the jungle..we only have the Panama family's word that girls never came back..stuff was taken from their room to make out they were dead then. ???
@@Roro-nz2jt I think if I was in a foreign country I would take things like passport and insurance cards with me, rather than leave them back at an apartment where they could be stolen (I had that happen in a hotel in ireland), but they also could have been planted later, but I guess everything would have been checked for fingerprints? They were also pictured with the backpacks on the day they went missing, so they had them with them. Its certainly a very strange story. I don't know enough details to accuse the tour guide, but he isn't the only person who knew they were going hiking. I also read that lots of drug related things happen in those forests, they could have come across a random person with bad intentions.
@@useyourbrain.5574 thank you so much for that...and thanks for replying ..this case is just so desperately sad..thanks Potnoodle man.
I think we ALL have serious doubts about events as they have been suggested to have been...
Isn't weird..the husky just come home alone...
My heart and thoughts are with you...
Why did the taxi driver need to go into their room? Very odd?
That was the tour guide. But yes, very odd. Also odd that he never met them before, but went to the police later in the evening to report them misding. Why not their host family??
Women should hike with several close male friends in the wild. Otherwise they risk being murdered.
Men hiking on their own go missing now and then as well. Overall it seems safer to hike at the very least with someone else when you go into wild nature or very desolate terrain...
I read somewhere that a dog they knew walked with them upon the trail and returned alone. But you would not cross a monkey bridge with a dog! So i do not think they crossed the bridge. The cut of her foot was straight and not ripped off. So it was chopped off!
and:
I think the tour guide did it. Look at his eyes in RUclips video “Dutch reporter in Panama to interview tour giide F” his pupils wide open at one moment. That’s because his brain recall the bad memory and picture it at the back of his eyes. Look at the RUclips video murder or accident ? from Peaked Interest. Look at 51:41 when a review about the tour guide is read. Only couples or Big group of men are positive. One woman alone was sexual attacked by him. And he told her to chop of her legs with his machete. And he has a preference for Northern European ladies. And look at a interview with him in video “Interview with guide F”. When the parents went back to Holland at 1:41. He is smiling at the reporter. Why you smile at such horrific case? Because she is blond too! And he want to do to her what he did to the girls. Also look at the video “Gone in a flash” from Truly Criminal at 5:24 at the guide “F”. He is standing at the hiking trail next to the mother from one of the girls. He walks a little bit away and makes a small bow. What if you where not the murderer? Then you stand next to her to support her. Showing your face in the camera. Nothing to hide. He did not! His brains again recalls the bad moments he did. Thats why his body makes a move that wasn’t necessary.
In this kind off countries everybody wants a piece of the money pie. So many are involved in their missing. Sick world.
Hi Jor, yeh the owner of the Il Pianista restaurant said that their dog Blue went with the girls, but since the dog is not pictured in any of their photos, the consensus is by now that the dog was never really there by their side. As to why its owners would have made such a thing up, well that is an interesting question.
The guide said some curious things but then again, he was never properly investigated and therefore he also never had the chance to be officially and reliably ruled out, based on top notch alibi verifications and forensic checks of his houses and stuff like that..
Полностью поддерживаю ваше мнение. Также обратила внимание на съемку с родителями и поведение гида. Гид психически больной человек.
hope they find the bodies someone somewhere knows where they are i think all backpackers should carry a emergency tracker so if they get lost or something else least they would have a chance on finding them
Good point, yes they should. And when investing in far away travel destinations, which involve a jungle or a big stretch of wild nature, I would also invest in a satellite phone..
What possessed them to go there in the first place? , everyone looks sketchy as f***
One of those coming of age trips, I feel. Has to be far away from home nowadays, for many
Почему те, кто убил девушек, безнаказанно должны жить дальше???
потому что жизнь несправедлива. но возможно они уже и не живут
The bra is such a red herring. Bras, from what I understand, can be sweaty and uncomfortable. They took them off to hike. It's simple and innocuous.
Has anybody ever seen the pictures that were on the telephones?
I only know of the pictures from the camera.. 🤷🏼♂️
Hi, yes some people have seen those photos also. They haven't been shared online however. But I have been told by people who did view them, that these photos, including those taken on the summit of the Pianista trail, are the same type of selfies and landscape views as the photos taken with the Canon camera. Nothing new on the phone photos
They took of their bras , because of heavy rain. It is simple. Bacpack found in the river with none broken phones and camera -this is real mystery
damn i never saw this one, heartbreaking but i know we will figure it out one day. but i fear it will sadly take more deaths
Is it possible they brought with them extra set of brahs?
Like they expected them to get sweaty and maybe uncomfortable on the hike and could switch to new clean comfortable ones?
I'm no woman so I don't know, but I sometimes bring extra socks to switch when the first pair gets sweaty, moist and uncomfortable. Would guess something similar could happen with brahs that is so close/tight to the body.
Perhaps. But not sure that would make sense, given they planned for a short hike. Taking only a few hours. They didn't bring a compass, no flashlight, no bathing clothes, no towels, barely any food and drinks, no sunscreen, no mosquito spray. Bringing an extra set of bras may not have crossed their minds perhaps therefore? They thought they'd be back at their house by the end of the afternoon.
They probably took them off to sleep when they became lost. If one or both of the girls were injured, it might have been painful to keep wearing them or put them back on.
@@SisterJanet Probably, perhaps, I think, I would... None of it is any evidence. They probably weren't even lost. Lisanne closed the google maps app that first day's afternoon, why would someone 'lost' do that? Why would lost people not try to call their host family or parents for help. Why wouldn't they document landmarks along the way with their camera, if lost. Why wouldn't they stay put at some point; Sinaproc have declared that in all their years and experience, they never failed to find missing tourists in that agricultural stretch of nature.
@@scarletr.7753 I think before she set off she downloaded the route via the app so she had offline access. I do the same when I go hiking. At the point they got "lost" it was too late to regain a signal.
На небольшой поход не возьмут второй комплект
Where you need it most, there is no cellular coverage because it is expensive and not worth it for companies. Think about it. Because of greed, people die without a chance to ask for help.
I think they took off the bras and its normal. After few days in the jungle u sweat a lot, the weather is like raining and sunny all the time.
Bras just starts scrapes and feel very unfocomfortable.
Exactly.
Jungla no se pierde nadie que ya visito el lugar y le enseñaron fotos computadora como llegar hasta adentro del sendero allí hubo celos y crimen obsesión pasional al ellas ir y conoser amigos y venir tomadas en cerveza se le reclamo amenazo y se les dijo ustedes así tomadas no pueden llegar a casa hospedaje ballan río a bañarse y quitarse goza con sus amigos el macho alfa allí enamorado se obsesuono le reclamo a los amigo y taxero los huyendo y las llevo al sendero y hospedarse en su casa les dio un par de cerveza ma's y les engaño yo iré a buscar todas sus cosas maleta en casa hospedaje por orden de los dueños que ustedes busquen otro hospedaje y vivirán en mi cabaña
Feliciano the gide is the responsable. So you have to juego in The Corte Internacional of Den Hag
I have to disagree about the bra's. I'm a girl myself and know that bra's get very uncomfortable after a while. You take them off and if it was just the two of them, I wouldn't have put them back on after either.
It's all subjective I guess. It will depend on so many factors. Where you are, how threatened or safe you feel, how big your breasts are, how revealing your top is, how painful a bra would be and what type of bra you are wearing, etc etc
@@scarletr.7753 yeah exactly. It does really depend on the situation they were in, but for the "lost in the woods for days" theory I think it's most likely they took their bra's off. But I do have to say I'm leaning more towards other theories than them being lost in the woods
I'm sorry for your loss.
The Lord Jesus give you His Peace.🙏
Murder seems to me indicated by the foot cleanly cut off in the boot. What does everyone think about this?
The problem with the foot is that the coroner could not find any microscopic signs on that foot of tools or weapons. It did not look like a foot cut off with a machete, for instance. Therefore it is also technically possible that it just came loose from the tibia bone through natural decomposition...
In the early 70s when I traveled with a friend down to Mexico City Mexico, I noticed that women after certain time of the evening we're always escorted. We also visited a theater that was a mixture of entertainment which included gymnast/ acrobatics ,singers and strippers. The Peculiar thing about the strippers, in comparison to the United States ,was for their grand finale, the bra was the last article to be removed.. I found that the breast in South America were deemed as sacred. Maybe that's why the bras were packed neatly in their packs by somebody else other than the girls.
Interessant zu wissen
The father should file a criminal lawyer with help with nether Gov , Re-open the case again....
He tried.. and failed. You're fighting both the Panamanian and Dutch governments here. He faced walls of concrete.
@@scarletr.7753 I understand his situation, but someone know the entire story. I'm sure they are not the first victim ....
@@richievellalar3214 agreed. Unfortunately a lot of opportunities have been lost early on, because the Dutch were leaning back, allowing Panama to 'lead', and as such ruin evidence and missed countless research opportunities. The FBI didn't make that mistake in 2017, when American Catherine Johannet was killed in Bocas. They barged in and did their own research, quickly solving the case. They found a link btw between her murder and the death of Kris and Lisanne, but didn't further dive into this. It is simply too late in many respects to redo this invrestigation 😕
@@scarletr.7753 Anyone enter in the jungle, especially forest like this , no body dare to overnight, if they entered, I'm sure on same day they wanna exit the forest , because not much things they brought with them , on the first day they already trapped inside by someone. If you not sure about path I don't think so anyone would go inside ..... unfortunately their bad luck day , when they realise the plan didn't follow their ways , that day they should out from there ... It's a cold murdered..... someone trying to buried their file .... Tycoon
They took all the pictures of the two guys the were with off the internet immediately so that's something I know it. Both of those guys in the water picture are dead now to.
He needs to accept that his daughter was murdered and to DO something about it! He shouldn’t be sitting and talking! He needs to do something! Evidence is everywhere!! Americans like me can see it clear as day, why can’t he?
OMG, the girls were not murdered. They went hiking alone with very few supplies. They were very foolish in not listening to the locals. They went further than they were supposed to and ended up lost and injured. They weren't dressed for changing weather or having an appropriate water supply. The other family is at peace now knowing it was a accident.
@@Bella.216 murdered. Period 🔴 murdered murdered murdered. Their photos were photoshopped by Feliciano’s son to make it look like they went to Pianista. They didn’t. Lisanne was too sick anyway. Want proof I’m right? Look at their beach videos, see the background of “the mad tribesman”, yeah. Also look at the other pic of Lisanne with gang member behind her, see the 3 dots? Lisanne’s ankle was tattooed with 3 dots by that man. Identical 3 dots which mean PHOTOSHOPPED.
Is there a possibility that F came back down the trail and his son kept those girls captured in the jungle, why on earth would F go to the place they were living in without never even meeting them and searching the place without any police involved, what was he looking for, could it be possible?
It is something that should have been properly investigated, for sure. The fact that it wasn't is suspicious I think, but it is ultimately to blame on Betzaida Pitti and her shoddy investigation :(
Why were they not found by Feliciano and other guides ? They know the trails so well .
The jungle is huge, there was no way to find them easily in the middle of that dense forest. Especially when you don't know if the individual is alive or not.
Donde les hicieron la autopsia son confiables o pusieron esas muestras simulando k eran de ellas chequen bien
Los informes de la autopsia no se hicieron públicos. Pero hay personas que tienen acceso a las autopsias. El propio forense dijo a la prensa que cree que las chicas fueron asesinadas....
they need to do some paranormal investigation in the jungle , because there is not much physical evidence
You mean missing 411 ?
Sorry to tell the father but I was once walking through the bush, clambered over a rock and turned and tore a meniscus. I thought at that moment I’d be calling for a helicopter rescue because I could barely walk. Honestly, these ‘opinions’ of people suddenly become facts because they had their hands up in celebration a couple of hours earlier in a photo? In the last photo she *does* look tired and very much like anyone does after several hours of walking: tired, bored and ready for it to end. If only the girls had recorded some message of getting lost then all these armchair detectives would be explaining how the backpacks and folded bras all make sense again in that context.
What do you think most likely happened to them?
@@scarletr.7753 While I've seen a number of videos about 'organ harvesters' and them making it back to town, all of those ideas have serious issues.
That they make it back to town means that someone hauled their bodies back up the path - a single walkway as they continue to stress - that is 'well worn' (ie., lots of foot traffic.) So people harmed the girls and then carried them (you're not getting a vehicle along that path) back up into the woods, then another 8 kilometres into the woods and dumped them? And then played around with their phones all aiming to create some sort of outrageous alibi that they were lost in the woods? Or they never made it back down but were being held and for several days they had access to phones?
The two girls were already pushing what they were probably comfortable with as non-experienced walkers. And so, my guess is a sprain or fall meant that they felt they needed assistance for the walk back up and out (the first emergency call) and, for whatever reason, they possibly looked at some immediate areas of higher ground and went off the track looking for reception. A short time later it was already starting to get dark and they'd missed a connection back to the path and ended up lost.
From there it was several days of various attempts to contact emergency services while simply finding nothing that could bring them back to the track.
All other theories have to stretch facts and circumstances to fit.
@@redastair Hi, yeh the most problematic part about making it back to town (which lines up with the statements of more than one witness), is that their phones never regained a connection with the network. Had they returned to town (walking on their own feet I mean here), you would expect to see reconnectivity. On the other hand; we know that the night photos were photoshopped to some degree and that the originals were overwritten by Pitti and her team. So who is to say that we and the NFI had access to the original, untampered phone log data? More questions than straight answers. Organ harvesting requires a professional network, for sure, including a hospital setting. It is not really the most logical scenario in this disappearance case. There is transport possible up until a certain height on the Pianista trail, but not the entire trail no. As for creating an outrageous alibi; that is really up to each and everyone to decide, how insane it really is to stage a large amount of strange night photos over the course of 3 hours. Some will say it is incomprehensible, others will say that it is peanuts really in terms of effort or planning, compared to what some infamous killers have done in the past.
People get lost, but they don't usually stay lost in this area, according to Sinaproc. This is a complex case, where the evidence and remains found do not 100% explain an accident or Kris and Lisanne having gotten lost. Sinaproc meticulously went through the area for over a month and their director declared on camera that they were certain that Kris and Lisanne were not in that area (despite their bag and some bones later being found there anyway). Sinaproc dealt with lost tourists before and have declared that they always found them. Here many volunteers, locals and other tourists helped the searches, and they just were nowhere to be found. Then there are their particular use of their phones and camera, that arouses suspicion with some people. (I mean, why only start flashing the camera on day 8? Why not in the entire week before, when they were also lost and alone?). The state of their remains, the absense of 90+% of their remains and there is still a lot more to this story. People get lost and stay lost all the time, there is no doubt that it is easy to get lost. But in this particular case, things don't add up according to many people. Some say they were in a jungle, but people who live in Boquete have described the environment as highlands, aggricultural forest that is inhabitated and has cattle and farms all over the place. They specifically stress this is not regular jungle.
As for being held in the woods; I wrote on my blog series about a German girl, a tourist, who was kidnapped and raped by three local rescue members in 2017 in Panama. It is a factual case, so clearly these things *can* happen. Info: this German tourist, Valentina, had gotten lost in the jungle of the Panamanian province of Veraguas near the El Bermejo waterfall, roughly 140 kilometers east of Boquete, and the three locals who abused her were part of the rescue operation. And they were said to have been drinking heavily when out looking for her. When they found her, they hid her in one of the wooden sheds in the jungle and managed to keep her hidden there from the other searchers for three days. In which she was raped and abused... One of her attackers ended up in hospital due to the wounds she gave him while trying to defend herself with a broken rum bottle. If one of the three thugs hadn't been bleeding so heavily in the arm, belly and thigh that he was at risk of bleeding to death, she may never have lived to tell the tale. The others fled with him and rushed him to hospital to save his life (and indirectly hers I believe). Things may have ended very differently for this brave young woman otherwise. So it is not that unheard of, although rare I suppose. Same region, same type of tropical forest, near same scenario. And she was not found by the larger search teams. Someone can actually disappear in such places, despite scores of people looking for her. And that a lone woman is never just safe, out there on her own. As for two young women to both have an accident and one not going out to look for help while the other stays put; that is more rare than it happening to a solo hiker. But at the end of the day, we don't have all the answers and are left to personal assessments of what is more or less likely to have taken place
@@scarletr.7753 Great response. I often (more than I should) watch Mr Ballen on RUclips and have come to realise that many times there will never be a satisfactory answer. I think whatever the reality of the situation for these young women it can only have been terrifying and miserable.
To be found by 'rescuers' only for them to entrap and abuse is something I assume to belong only to fiction.
Keep happy.
@@redastair To understand the murder theory, you need to do more than watch RUclips. It's very frustrating when that's all people do. Entire books have been written about this, there is an entire podcast where they actually went to Boquete and spoke to Feliciano.
Yes there are far-out murder theories about organ harvesters, even cannibal Satanists, but they might as well be alien abductions. They are just random ideas, not based on any of the known facts of the case. Organ harvesters do operate in Mexico, but Mexico isn't Panama. They are not the real murder theory, they are a distraction. The real murder theory is that they befriended a local group of Panamanian men, who raped and murdered them, and Feliciano helped cover it up because one of them was his step-son.
There is no reason to believe that making it back to town means killers had to kill them in town and drag their bodies whole back into the jungle to dismember them. They could dismember them where they killed them, and just take pieces into the jungle. Only small, easily transportable pieces were discovered. Or they could've made it back to town and then left town again with the men, for example to go swimming in the caldera.
The murder theory doesn't require them to have made it back to town anyway. There are small indigenous trails coming off La Pianista, that only locals - and particularly tour guides - know about. These lead to other possible murder scenes, such as the caldera or Cuervo's house in Palo Alto, which is where Margarita Valenzuela said they were killed.
Actually you can get a vehicle up a lot of that path, for about the first hour. Witnesses reported a red pickup truck going up after the girls.
If you want to understand the real murder theory, visit some of the places that have done years of research, not just a twenty-minute crank RUclips video. Start with the blog of this channel koudekaas.blogspot.com
At this point he should just say all he knows! Just like Delphi and all the other cold cases to reignite interest and let the public take a look at it. Seems like all cases are more likely to be solved with more eyes
Poor familles, poor women
Has the tour guide ever been seriously questioned about this under a lie detector test and under oath, etc?
No, never. The Panamanian prosecutor, Betzaida Pitti, could be called negligent, incompetent or corrupt, whatever option you prefer. There was no criminal investigation: there were no persons of interest determined, nor investigated. There was no forensic investigation. So a tour guide like Feliciano may have stuck his nose in half a dozen aspects of this case, most notably being in their bedroom before alerting police, being the one who they supposedly had a meeting with the next day plus being the man whose workers and brother respectively FOUND and handled the backpack 10 weeks later, before handing it to police... Found very close to Feliciano's finca. But he was never investigated. His phone wasn't inspected. His whereabouts weren't checked. His computer searches weren't inventorized. His property wasn't forensically searched. Nothing.
@@scarletr.7753 Absolutely ridiculous! I really can't believe how terribly this story was investigated. These people (especially F) should have been questioned heavily, his property searched, etc. Same for the woman who gave them attitude at the school, and even the Dutch guys who were probably innocent but still every person they interacted with should have been looked into. To be honest, it's not too late to do that, it's harder now than 10 years ago, but still should be done anyway, the girls and their families deserve the truth. This is regardless if they just got lost or it was foul play (I lean towards the latter after reading all the research you did Scarlet). You should have been paid for all your work you have done and continue to do far better investigating than the actual investigators did! Apparently there is a more recent investigation someone wants to look at a nearby Dam that the river the bones were found in flows to, that Dam was never looked into (I think it's recent I forget where I saw it, have you heard about that?)
@@peterd4047 It really is ridiculous and outrageous. Worst part for me is that the Dutch were involved and tried to help solve the case, but were kept at arms length by the Panamanians. And accepted that. So not even the Dutch professionals overseeing the investigation could make any difference to it. I know. Also for guide F's own best interest, because now we will never know if he is innocent or not. He could have theoretically also been vindicated by a proper investigation. But I would have wanted to see a detailed map of every single mobile phone that went up and down that Pianista trail on April 1st. See exactly what F did with his phone, who he called, what he texted, what he looked up in search engines. Then forensically test his houses, his finca, his car, his son's car, his friends' houses. They were the ones who had a tour appointment with Kris and Lisanne and he was by his own admission the one who last saw them alive. The son and his friends even drunkenly made a similar admission in a local bar, but could walk free. Eileen, the German intern who was working at the language school was with the tour guide on Wednesday, weirdly going to their bedroom and going through their belongings there for a significant amount of time. She then fled the scene much earlier than planned: also never even interviewed by police. It is incredible really. Well ten years later, you cannot reliably interview them anymore. Too much time has passed for memories to be reliable anymore IMO. Juan contacted the Dutch NFI who did open a cold case not too long ago, but they closed the case again soon after and said there is no reason to reopen the case. It is hopeless; they do not want to cause any ripples in Panama and probably have no such power anyway.
As for the dam, I think that came from the commercial book authors who wrote a coverup story for the tour guide and the prosecutor. Yeh... not sure that investigation is ever going to take place to be honest. I'd be surprised and especially surprised if they ever find something there. Too much time has passed
@@scarletr.7753 Thanks for the response, such a shame really. I can't believe, if anything, F wasn't at least asked why he was in their bedroom for 30 minutes the next day with that Eileen woman. Also, how was it know it was 30 minutes or is that just a rumor, and how did the local family let him in in the first place, it was their house afterall.
@@peterd4047 That was communicated early on in the Dutch press, I believe my Miriam or Ingrid perhaps
Are there people hiking here? I have many years of experience and EVERY time I go into the forests and mountains I take off my bra, always. It gets in the way, especially if I go to the mountains for several days. I had scary and dangerous moments in nature, and even then I took it off and didn’t put it on “to protect myself from the world.”
Hi, why do you take yours off when hiking?
@@scarletr.7753 For me it’s not comfortable, the bra restricts movement, without it I can breathe and move more freely, it doesn’t press anywhere, I can't sleep with bra. Many of my hiking friends also wear sports jerseys.
Guess it was sarcasm because wearing off bras doesn”t make sense at all.
If it is hot and humid and I have been walking for hours and am tired, I would take my bra off.
If I were lost in a foreign (macho) country, in hostile wooded terrain and unsure who to run into, I would not rake off my bra. especially not when humidity would make the tanktop stick to my body... Still doesn't give us a good indication though what Kris and Lisanne did in that situation.
What happens if a corpse is eaten by scavenger birds? Do they leave bite marks on the bones like hyenas or similar animals do?
Yes. They leave microscopic beak marks on the remains and on the bones. All animals minus perhaps ants or mosquitos leave microscopic markings behind.
@@scarletr.7753 Ok, maybe ants were responsible for what happened in this case then, or bacteria? Don't the soft tissues of a body rot quite quickly if they are not protected somehow?
@@AA-le9ls If only the rest of the case was straightforward, perhaps. But it is not straightforward.
Why they didnt send any SMS?
BIG question. Never satisfactory answered. Nothing that was done with those phones or camera after April 1st showed anything personal. No selfies, no notes, no videos, no audio, no nothing. Just sterile 112/911 attempts and totally anonymous and bizarre night photos. Of course, to write a draft SMS, the person handling the phone would have had to know DUTCH. There may have lied the problem.
I longed for the day when this case is fully solved. Not some half-baked investigation & conclusion.
I believe if the Dutch authorities are presented with more compelling evidence, they would 💯 reopen the case to provide closure for the families.
Unfortunately the Dutch authorities have showed very little interest in this case, all in all. They were not leading in the investigation and haven't pushed much either. They know about new findings, but wrote in an email back that they are not interested in reopening the case, or see no reason for it. And that only Panama is capable of doing so anyway..
@@scarletr.7753 I see.. it's very sad to see this case being buried among the unsolved cases.🙁
So, even if the Dutch authorities are presented with new evidence which provides some leads or are compelling enough, they still will not push for a reopening of the case through international means?
Because frankly, I believe the Panama authorities cannot be relied on to lead the case with accountability & transparency.
@@TEH_RIK Juan and I were shocked to see the swimming photo and Juan contacted the Dutch Prosecution about it. Turned out they already knew about its existence, told him it is a genuine, legit photo, but..... they do not believe it are Kris and Lisanne that are pictures with Henry's friends, who also were dead within a year. We disagree, but bottom line is that they Dutch officials just say that the only party able to reopen the case, is the Panamanian prosecution. And surprise surprise, they have no such interests or intentions. I think the only thing that can break this case wide open again, is the discovery of new hard evidence, or new witnesses speaking up :(
@@scarletr.7753 I agree. It's very frustrating that the ball is now on the Panamian prosecutions unless new hard evidence or witnesses surfaced.
Anyways, I'll see what I can dig up over the next few months/years. And I'll be sure to let you know if I madd any breakthroughs. 🙂
Thank you once again for your insights Scarlet! 👍
RIP those ladies..such a young aged lives were taken away unjustly..
In this case , I personally believe they were victims of cannibalism. Specially coordinated work between tour guides or taxi drivers etc and tribes in deep woods who are waiting for unsuspected victims to come to them or getting lost somewhere or even dropped off by local drivers or tour guides only to alert cannibals... end hunt is on...who is gonna hear their screams?
Cannibalism still exist unfortunately..
4:21 If you don't have a background for you subtitles, used letters with a strong contrast edge.
Yeh I improved that in later video subtitles. This was one of the first I subtitled and I am not that tech-savvy.
Why were the bags amd contents in perfect condition after apparently travelling downstream.the hike was straight forward and back,the dog made it back,foul play.
Fueron privadas de la livertad y las vendieron luego las mataron
As a woman I would definitely take off my bra if I was stuck in a hot and sweaty jungle. Chafing is a big issue and causes a rash and itching as the bra rubs against sweaty skin. Neither girl needed the bra for support but rather for coverage. Why wear a bra if no one is around and you are alone?
There are so many variables though. Size of breasts for instance, type of bra, the level of perceived security out there, how cold it is at night. Not sure if that is true about Kris tbh, nót wearing a bra when you have decent sized breasts, while moving around in a humid environment, can also be uncomfortable and cause chafing issues. And were they truly alone? if you are in a hostile environment and can run into strangers at every turn, that concept is pretty subjective
I think 🤔 the landlord of the unit they rent are something strange 🙄 also the Tour guide. and knew exactly what happened to the two woman or maybe involved.
And this case is purely Rape,Captive and Murdered.
We need ditective conan.
To investigate deeper.
The system in Panama is absolutely incompetent and a joke!!!
How about the school that sent them there? Did they not tell the girls not to go on dangerous place in panama?
The language school promised to arrange volunteer work at a children's school for them. But something went wrong there and we still do not know what exactly. Lisanne checked multiple times to be sure they could start work that Monday, Ingrid or staff even sent another confirmation email about this on the Friday, according to one of the parents, but on Monday they were unwelcome and sent away. Who's error was this? The Spanish school did not do what they promised? The children's school was unreliable? Did someone try to lure those girls to Boquete under false promises? Or did Kris and Lisanne somehow make an error in their planning? (I don't think so and neither do their parents think so). Then the Spanish school could not arrange replacement work for Kris and Lisanne soon after. Hence, why they started to plan hiking tours....
@salt and pepper unfortunately the school had all the information about their plans go to pianista. Easy one to look at the search history of the computer reading about their plans.
Je kan een bh gebruiken om water te filteren (beter dan niets).
Goede suggestie.
is it correct that there are some photos that family didnt release? is there any information on when were they taken?
Hi, all the main photos are in the public domain. There were 470 photos on that digital Canon camera, of which 133 were taken on or after April 1st. 33 on the day they went missing and 100 night photos. We have seen mostly all of those photos and ppl behind the scenes saw all of them. Only file 509 is missing and unseen.
@@scarletr.7753 that is a complete lie. ALL photos were NEVER released 3 years ago. Even now, after april 2024, for the newest Book on the investigation with the ADDITIONAL never-before-shared photos from the CASE, we dont have ALL of them in public domain.
se van a cumplir 7años noan capturado lo crliminales..
When blond women disappear in musulman countrys , some they sell them in the desert, a bedouin who was born abroad told me some storys, l know young women that were kidnapped in a market in Marruecos, Turky, walking in the street ,
There are some strange things regarding the disappearance...like the missing photo. But in the end I think Kris and Lisanne got overconfident, lost their way and perished in the jungle.
These girls were stalked and murdered just like hundreds of others!
3 witnesses including the taxi driver were murdered within a year and there's a high chance members of the cartel or traffickers were involved.
The tour guide "Feliciano" could be linked to them since he knew where and when the girls were hiking, but he was never investigated.
Panama is corrupt and lets these murders and disappearances slide to protect the tourism industry which makes up approx. 20% of Panamas GDP. 😠
So many things don't add up but it is a possibility.
@@sepehr.javaheri It could have happened. Sure. But we will probably never know for sure.
Ik zou wel de bh uitdoen, zeker onder stressvolle omstandigheden.
Door die band zit het voor geen meter.
Met een zwaardere boezem is het aan de andere kant vreselijk om zonder bh in een vochtige jungle rond te lopen. Er zijn zoveel varianten (bh-maat, kwaliteit van bh, persoonlijke voorkeuren).
@@scarletr.7753
Zeker, deze 2 lady's hadden een bescheiden maat he.
En dan ook te bedenken dat een andere vrouw in dat gebied gewurgd is met haar bh 🥴
@@manuelaveganantinataliste3361 Hmm, Kris ook? Denk ik een beetje anders over. Maar je hebt het strand in de jaren 80, toen iedereen topless rondliep nog. En je hebt een jungle in een vreemd (macho) land. De meiden waren al vermist toen. Het is allemaal persoonlijk, maar ik zou me als verdwaalde (of gekidnapte) toch extra kwetsbaar voelen in een dun topje zonder BH in een vochtige jungle. Ja heel erg verdrietig, die zaak van Catherine Johannet in Bocas. Als de FBI daar niet opgedoken was, dan was haar dood wellicht ook afgedaan als een 'verdwaling'..
Sera por que soy de America pero ni loca voy con esos locos a un sendero solitario ni me hago ver con ese viejo feli....y ese plinio el taxista no comparto viajes con personas desconocidas en otro pais en un taxi
Are both confirmed dead?
They are both assumed dead yes. But technically, only the main bones of Lisanne's left leg were ever found, and one rib bone and half a pelvis from Kris.
The nightly photos prove nothing. The jungle is full of sounds at night, nature comes alive and sound carries for miles. It is completely dark, a darkness that we no longer know in the West. The sounds around must have terrified them. The flash with the camera must have served to scare off wild animals, just like with an open fire. After all, wild nocturnal animals avoid light. If something around them was moving in the bushes, they might also have been hoping to see what it was in a photo. The question, which potentially deadly predators are living in that area, has never been asked. Panthers? Jaguars? If one of them had a wound or was having her periods, the smell of blood can have been enough to attract one of them. Wounded animals are always the first victims, because vulnerable. Has one of them been bitten by a deadly snake? In the jungle you are lost when that happens.
The picture of the head was just to see what the (light) wound was. Apparently one of them had hit her head. Nothing unusual on a trip through the jungle between rocks.
When someone found the backpack, he may have decided to keep it and its contents. After all, people are very poor there. Later, when rumors started circulating about two missing girls, the finder who had the backpack at his home may have panicked and returned the backpack to where he had found it.
And the two bras in the backpack? A trip through the humid and hot jungle can be very unpleasant. Everything sticks to the body. This is probably why the girls during their trip took off their bra and put it away neatly
Since you duplicated your comment, I will too :) Yes, very true, the jungle at night is a cacophony of sound. It was pretty dark at night, initially even with a New Moon but later on the foliage and the trees and the lack of light pollution from nearby civilization will have made it seem incredibly dark as well. As for scaring off wild animals; there was not one sign of an animal (or a dog for that matter) on any of the photos. I see that they may have scared them off successfully then, but over three hours of making flash photos is both a long time and at the same time a short one, considering they must have feared animals at 10 pm and midnight as well, for instance. Or at 5 am. But no photos were taken then. And if that were the case, why did they only start this habit on the 8th night? How about the whole week prior, or the days after? I wrote a lot about this in my blog posts (koudekaas.blogspot.com/) specialists from the area did weigh in on the wild animal topic and have said that the sight of a jaguar or puma is incredibly rare there. It was 20 years ago that a cow was last killed by such a wild cat. They are rare and they avoid humans like the plague, for good reasons. Also, there is no evidence for wild animals. The bones that were found showed no microscopic animal claw or teeth marks. The backpack and the jeans shorts and the shoes that were found had no damage, no tearings, no blood, nothing. So without any actual evidence, the jaguar stories are just fairy-tales imo. Where do you see the wound in that night photo? Thousands of people have stared at that photo by now, nobody can point out an actual wound. Any hints of darkness under the hair is most likely the shadow effect of the flashlight. Again, ' apparently', but there is no actual evidence for this. As for the backpack, yeh I have heard that theory go round, especially on places like Reddit, but think about it; on April 5th there was already a $2500 reward, which was quickly increased to $30.000 and then to $40.000 for the golden tip. Locals have said that people live there from $10 a day, and the native people sometimes even from $1 a day. So what sort of an incentive must it have been to be able to receive $40.000? The locals knew about the disappearance as the guide has a finca in Alto Romero and has informed them, it were also the native people who helped find the bones. Nobody can keep up that they are some sort of Papua New Guinean tribes people, far away from civilization. There is only about 25 kilometers between Alto Romero and Boquete and they frequently go back and forth. It makes no sense to me therefore that someone would find that bag, hold onto it, then plant it again (??) for someone else to find (someone from Alto Romero) and to give away the potential for a life changing reward. The $83 were also not taken out of the bag after all. Anyway, we have completely different views on this case I think
@@scarletr.7753 Flash can have been used as a distress signal for a passing airplane. As sound goes far at night, maybe they have heard noises from a far away farm or village? Who knows? The light points you see in the nocturnal pictures are simply insects captured into the flash light. In the tropic, you are eaten alive by insects when you are not protected. They are NOT stars. For that you need a shutter speed of at least 15 seconds or even more. They seem standing at a cliff and are flashing into the distance. All of these pictures seem to be taken at the same location and aimed in the same direction. Look, someone who would just have overwhelmed or murdered two girls would not betray his location by flashing 90 times by night at the same place. No those persons wanted desperately to be discovered (or chase away something) !
Hey, I answered this same comment twice already, you keep posting the exact same long question post all over my channel so I have to remove one or two now.
@@lucdevincke2055 Not that many airplanes fly over that route at night and it would still not explain 3+ hours of ongoing photo taking. Yeh the noises is possible but then the question remains why they never took any such photos for attention from April 1-7 or after April 8th. Oh c'mon, those light points can be anything from water drops to water mist to dust particles, but not insects. If that location was betrayed, why have we not seen the location identified by now already? Nobody has come forward with photo comparison evidence for this night photo location. These photos only show some trees high up in the sky and some generic rock surfaces. Extremely vague. Anyway, thanks for your thoughts, don't spam my entire channel with the exact same messages please :)
@@scarletr.7753 Hoezo, heb slechts één maal op jouw (deze) channel gepost. Wel reactie gegeven op andere channels.