Well said. Elves should be child like and full of joy and mirth when not at war. They are both wise beyond human years and full of emotion and wonder. They are what we can be if we keep our inner child intact. Not weighed down by fleeting woes, full of life and exceptance.
But when Elves get old enough, like Cirdan, they do start to get weighed down, don't they? Isn't that one of the reasons the "Mandos hroa recycling process" is necessary? At least in some versions of Tolkien's conception of the Elvish life cycle.
Well I suppose Elves have a much longer period to process grief and loss. I suppose they could be thought to feel emotions more intensely than mortal man, and that include the more negative emotions as well. The oldest Elves have seen great loss and many tragedies. Most leave Middle Earth to return to Valinor to recover their joy. Cirdan is one of the most interesting of the Elves, he is one of the oldest and one of the last to leave. I wish Tolkien had written more about him.
@@coreyander286 They do become more and more burdened by their memories, and as their bodies fade they spend more time contemplating and remembering the activities they like rather than doing them. But it's not clear Cirdan, despite his over 10,000 years in marred Middle-earth, is really different from younger elves in that regard.
@@TolkienLorePodcastI think the really sad part too is that people in current times minus a few have lost that love of poetry. Even as a gen-x, I adore all the poetry in Tolkien and feel completely immersed in those descriptions and the poems! The whole night of Ballads at Rivendell was cut out. And I really missed that in the movies. But that’s also led to some Tolkien fans bemoaning anything that’s not warrior like about Elrond. Though in history Tolkien no doubt appreciated that Warriors could also be scholars and then of course Tolkien was both soldier and scholar in his life and also loved language and poetry. To divest all poetry from Tolkien makes no sense to me at all! To be fair, I think that there are a few speeches and sense of that poetry in the movies. And those moments really reach me deeply! and it’s okay if you feel differently about that, because I do like your fair and honest presentation and perspectives. And then when I go back to the books it makes me appreciate even more what is missing like Galadriel’s beautiful speech to Gimli and seeing her play her harp and sing her song. But what’s heart breaking is seeing people even watch the movies and in the places where they have kept the poetry and speeches, all people want is the action. Sigh. And of course I wouldn’t have minded the singing and storytelling Legolas at all! And in that Legolas and Gimli scene and others, I filled in what was missing in my imagination! But some current audiences are so impatient that I’m not sure they could even sit through that beauty because not everyone likes poetry. Nor appreciate fully the multifaceted nature of the elves. I think ROP is trying to give them more emotions but somehow I don’t think they believe that the elves can both be mystical and have feelings…so are attempting to tone down their magic to “make them more real,” Tolkien didn’t do that because he had the subtle touch and nuance. And if all those beautiful extra bits were kept in the movies…the movies would have been even longer and I would have been willing to watch even more…but in trying to condense the long story and yes perhaps stretching out monsters and battles too long…time was lost to include scenes or show more dimensions to the elves. Even though I do have some quibbles with Peter Jackson on the films maybe not as many as you chuckle! I still really like him as a person. I like the way he takes time with his fans and have even seen him zoom in live twice to a Beatles fan convention. And he in that regard is humble and thoughtful and very likeable.
Tolkien states that Elves are not vegetarian, either by nature or as a people, any more than Men are: "Some of the Eldar (and some Men) eschew the slaying of _kelvar_ ['animals'] to use their bodies as meat, feeling that these bodies, resembling in different degrees their own, are in some way too near akin. (Yet none of the Eldar hold that the eating of flesh, not being the flesh of the Incarnate and hallowed by the indwelling of the _fëa_ ['spirit'], is sinful or against the will of Eru.)" - _The Nature of Middle-earth_ , p. 271
The Bakshi film does portray Legolas as being sort of childlike - but we're not given the jokes or songs. Maybe these are difficult to do in an adaptation and so they tend to focus more on the warrior and age-old wisdom stuff. Galadriel in Jackson's Return of the King does give us a cheeky grin as she gets on the last ship, which is the only hint we are given in the entire LotR franchise that Elves can be playful. But Arondir never seems to smile at all. In RoP, Elrond is actually the most elfy Elf - in contrast to the dour version of him in the Jackson films. Tauriel perhaps comes closest to a true Tolkienian Elf in Jackson's movies, because Evangeline Lily actually gives a very "human" portrayal of the character, with the full range of emotions: there's a very elvish lightness and joy as well as sadness in her.
I've heard the suggestion that Tolkien's elves are based partly on the Tuatha de Danann of Irish mythology, who could be mischievous or warlike or both at once, but who just didn't seem to have any middle gears.
The salad scene in the Hobbit movies came across, to me, as the elves deliberately annoying the dwarves, in a bit of a cheeky, silly, harmless way, and that's probably the closest I've ever seen on-screen elves get to that sense of humour they did have in the books. I don't know if it was intended that way or not, but that's what I got from it.
Maybe the vegetarian meal was just an elf joke for the dwarves when the elves were eating roasted mutton they hunted that morning in the next room over.
The first meeting with every elven group comes with a joke. Gildor and Rivendell as you said, and in Lothlorien: 'Yes, they are Elves,' said Legolas; 'and they say that you breathe so loud that they could shoot you in the dark.' Sam hastily put his hand over his mouth. It's obviously a joke and not a mean one like in the movie.
When Arondir speaks with his "coworker" at the southlands in the first episode after he spoke with Bronwyn , I think they mock each other with jokes and Galadriel also mentions that she made fun of Celebrimbor before he went to war. But still i would see more of these, cause i love these cheeky attitudes of elves. Gildor is one of my favourite characters actually.
2:43 I didn't see all that much of RoP, just snippets in criticism, but my impression is Arondir pretty much goes for Stoic, and I'd definitely not call that an Elvish trait.
It always seemed to me that Tolkien's Elves have been portrayed too similar to Vulcans from Star Trek, almost as it there was a link between stoicism and having pointed ears.
Its interesting to see which of the general impressions of Tolkien’s races and creatures become most widespread. Bearded Aragorns, Scottish dwarves, dragons get bigger and bigger etc One that always amuses me is the idea that Bombadil is some guy in total harmony with nature in his Forest. And then you read the poems and he’s just constantly in confrontations and having to get himself out of them!
Well, nature is always in a state of both harmony and confrontation with itself, so Tom Bombadil can be one with nature and in repeated confrontation with it without contradiction. Apparently Dwarves being Scottish comes from the Poul Anderson book _Three Hearts and Three Lions._ And in Russian-language adaptations, Dwarves have Georgian accents.
For those who don't know the way elves in these stories actually are is more inline with how the culture of the Star Trek Vulcans is described before they used "logic" to overcome their strong feelings.
I see the connection (and don’t know too much about Vulcans) but I don’t think elves are driven by logic as much as they are driven by oath, passion, and duty. They can be very logical but passion (as mentioned by our esteemed host) seems to be their main driving force. Thoughts?
Yeah, pre-Surak Vulcans might be a good analogy here. Though technically we kinda see the modern equivalent of pre-Surak Vulcans in person, in the form of Those Who March Beneath the Raptor's Wings - i.e. Romulans - and they aren't that close to the mark either so... eh, who knows.
Ok now here is a thing. The light that glows around the elves that lived in the light of the two trees. That is never addressed. And also how tall they were.
Sometimes like a great tree in flower, sometimes like a white daffadowndilly, small and slender like. Hard as di’monds, soft as moonlight. Warm as sunlight, cold as frost in the stars. Proud and far-off as a snow-mountain, and as merry as any lass I ever saw with daisies in her hair in springtime
Nazgul? Small fry. Raging blizzard? Barely an inconvenience. Balrog? O.O Almost sounds like elves are playing the game on easy and they know it. Also, we do get moments of levity from the elves in the film trilogies. Legolas cracking jokes at Gimli's expense like at Helm's deep and their kill count contest. Such as how he just starts counting out loud after cheerfully telling Gimli how far ahead of him he is. Elrond interacting with Gandalf in Unexpected Journey before the council meeting, the only time we really see him in the films without anything serious occupying his mind. Galadriel welcoming Gandalf at said meeting and the look she shares with him when she realizes he knew the dwarves would leave. There are fewer moments than in the book for sure, but the films do try to take themselves a little more seriously at times. I mean, try to imagine how the scene at the pass in Fellowship would go if Legolas was joking around as he does in the book in what is supposed to be a very tense scene for the fellowship.
You said it! Tolkien’s elves are multidimensional! I think Samwise Ganges round this up nicely. And I was reminded of that after watching a podcast of Girl Next Gondor in which she referenced how Sam describes Galadriel from as hard as a diamond to her merry laugh. On the way the elven houses are sown in the movies this comes down more to John Howe and Alan Lee as artists and their imaginations. Interestingly John Howe imagined Rivendell as a castle. Whereas Alan Lee imagined the more blended into nature look. And I have a feeling that these artists prior to the adaptations already had their own visions of Tolkien simply from reading the books. As they had been Tolkien artists from many years before. I liked both their depictions alas! Now as for the salad eating elves my guess probably more Jackson’s wife who is probably a vegan. And yes I did think to myself but they did hunt… I have a different take on the trees…I think some of that comes from Tolkien himself…and more than a love of simply their usefulness…and their prettiness. Thought I saw an old interview of Tolkien in which he expresses something about a tree having thoughts or feelings in real life and is empathetic towards that… And even though Jackson certainly bumped a lot of things around and changed them…it seemed to me that Legolas did give a longer speech about the forest being old and full of memory. And I guess that’s why it never really stood out to me as all that strange. Whereas the salad eating elves did because it was more obvious oh elves would be “vegetarians” because… Also thought that because the elves are tied elementally into Arda in a way different than humans their connection would just be part of how the world works. But that’s just my take.
Arondir is another variety of the elven trope a consensus at some point invented and became the accepted idea. Sam and Frodo also show a particular love of nature and cultivation being balanced and not needlessly intrusive.
Melon Geek, It is always a joy to view your video and fill my mind again with Tolkien instead of the terrible world we are living in. You remind me of many facets of the elves that I knew, but had not thought about in some time. It is true: the elves are not given a good representation in film. However, I do not think all of the characters done in cinema are equally as bad. My personal favorite is Galadriel. I think Kate Blanchet and Peter Jackson did a good job with her character. She lacked the golden hair in preference for the flax locks Jackson seemed to favor. But her demeanor was serious, considering the mood of the Quest. She also showed emotion, albeit with an enhanced CGI when she refused the Ring. But also telling was her conclusion when the effects ceased and she declared that she would "remain Galadriel" and go into the West. I also think her dialogue with Gimli over his gift was very telling. It wasn't as good as the book, but it was good. But really, my dear melon, your reading of Gildor's words and description brought back such good memories. I truly hope these proposed new series of LotR do not omit any of these great characters. One day, you and I will have to indulge in smoke rings and long conversation on these themes. Till then, namarie.
But in the book Galadriel LAUGHED when she heard Frodo offering the Ring to her and then she LAUGHED again after she resisted the temptation. She's much more lighthearted.
I always felt that the elves in Rivendell in the Hobbit (book) were at odds with all the other elves, even with (book) Legolas' playful and teasing side. My headcanon explains it as this particular bunch of elves being drunk.
So, my only guess is that considering they were going for a bit more of the playfulness and the Jackson movies for the hobbits you know being a bit more childlike and playful I guess they wanted to contrast the elves from everyone else by the logic of well these guys have lived for thousands of years so maybe they would be a bit more reserved I suppose?
Very nuanced analysis of the Elves, and very accurate might I add!! I am not keeping track of the rings of power or any online disputes but I’m so glad we can just go back to Tolkiens work and get so much more than whatever these adaptations have going on.
The Rings of Power season two trailer tells me all I need to know, it has nothing at all to do with Tolkien, and nothing of value would be gained by me watching it. NO HATE WATCHING either. You're better then that. Reject the ways of the Nerd.
What are elves, that is a very loaded question. It has more to do with out individual expectations as we want to admit. In the context of Tolkiens writing they were the precursors of humans. They looked like humans, procreated like humans, ate like humans and had the same physiological processes as we do. By the same token they are different as well because they have more time to do things, get to be more proficient at anything they want to do, because they do not die and leave the world, except by violence or in some cases if they loose the will to go on. In a way Tolkien grappled with the concept of a non human, but human looking species. Indeed all of the intelligent species in Arda are base level humanoids, even the ents. In fact the ents are the only species that rightly could be called non predatory, they did not hunt and they did not use wooden implements, only things made of stone. And they were the only beings that could be described as stoic, even to the point that some of them became tree-ish. To me elves are as variegated as humans are, there are many of them described, some in loving detail by the author, there is no singular feature except for their shape that describes them. And that is the point. Tolkien wanted to describe people and their deeds, he was not interested in racial bias!
Short clip of Tolkien talking about trees Of course he himself is neither a vegetarian and definitely appreciates a merry fire…and wood for houses… Interesting how he says he’s “enormously attracted to trees and ? in a ? simple minded way he would like to have found out what a tree feels about things. Tolkien is multi faceted himself!!! Love it!! ruclips.net/video/5BW4cuB3CEo/видео.htmlfeature=shared
There are Elves who have never been on screen that are more Elvish then anyone. Elwe a/k/a Elu Thingol, Fingolfin, Finarfin, & Finrod Feligund & of course book Galadriel & Elrond.
13:37 I'm going to take a wild guess that D&D plays a part in this. 24:38 Amen. For a long time I had only read the books in my language, and decided a few years ago that I need to read the original versions too. And while I was reading LotR, I realized I was reading the full book only for the second time, and the first time was before the movies came out. Surprisingly enough, I became much more critical of the movies.
One shorter question: any thoughts on how elves age? After The Nature of Middle Earth came out, a few people have come to the conclusion that elves mature mentally slower than humans because of their long lives. So much so to the place where some believe an elf that lives for 2000 human years would be no more mentally mature than a teenager or a twenty-something. Whereas in other of Tolkiens writings it’s suggested by the time an elf is One year old (their cycle) that they can already talk, read, write, sing and dance and come to a quick mental acuity. I’m wondering if either Tolkien changes his mind or if people are interpreting the same thing two different ways? Or if perhaps that innate “childlike” essence of the elves confuses people so they perceive elves to be “maturing mentally slower,” rather than recognizing something that is just one of those many facets you mention of their characters??? Any thoughts??
I think any references to them aging slowly are always to their physical aging. I’m pretty sure all explicit references to their mental aging indicate they do so faster than humans.
Thank you 🙏 that’s what seems most natural to me too. I meant to say that in above post it’s a measure of their VITALITY not their MENTALITY. And it’s something that perhaps is becoming lost in translation. ;-)
@@TolkienLorePodcast Maybe Tolkien doesn't dwell on it with the particular characters (admittedly I've only read the Hobbit and LOTR), but if you're weary of life on (Middle) Earth and the burden of your memory, that would seem to imply a certain melancholy/world-weariness. But you're definitely right that since none of the characters you mentioned are shown as they're preparing to leave, the media definitely overdoes the stoicism/aloofness.
Hello mate, historian of the early modern Mediterranean here. Naturally I have to be that guy who feels the need to nitpick something really small, despite broadly agreeing with the point you were making (Tolkien did not intend elves to be vegetarians at all - though the Nature of Middle Earth suggests vegetarianism was practised by some elves and men). You said that vegetarianism was very hard to sustain in premodern societies due to the difficulty of making up the required nutrients/calories. While not strictly 'vegetarianism', I think evidence suggests that the opposite tends to be the case for your average premodern commoner living outside the city; their meat intake would have been lower in general than people during and after the industrial era, maybe like the average flexitarian today. I have just been reading the excellent 'Native Nations' by Kathleen DuVal, and there is a great example of this from just under a thousand years ago not too far from you. When the great pyramid city of Cahokia came to dominate the upper Mississippi, material wealth and wellbeing for the privileged of the city increased, while nutritional standards in the surrounding tributary towns were not as high and perhaps decreased compared to what those people had had in generations before, as they began to send all their meat, fish, nuts, etc. into Cahokia rather than being able to keep much for themselves. Perhaps outside the warrior classes, the men of Middle Earth similarly held meat and fish as a luxury unless they happened to live in a forest or next to a river or coastline. The Rohirrim probably had lamb as a go-to: all that steppe for herding on. As horse-lords, they probably retained the cultural practice of bleeding their horses for sustenance in times of dire need, especially if on the move. Perhaps black pudding is a delicacy there...?
I imagine there must be some non-Tolkien visual media that include elves (or elves in all but name) which are close to the true Tolkien elves. I'm not aware of any specific example though. I do recall some D&D advice channel encouraging role-players to role-play elves in such a way, laughing at seemingly inappropriate moments.
My take on Tolkien's Elves has been, minus a few exceptions like the Fëanorians and Eöl and Maeglin, they are the people that God had intended Adam and Eve to be before the Fall of Man, Men being those who Fell. Thinking of the Elves this way makes it easy for me to undertsand why the Valar were so adamant about bringing the Elves to Aman (Eden). Also, all Elves who die in Middle Earth end up in the Halls of Mandos before being reembodied in Aman (Eden). So I think Elves are righteous and filled with the joy of life. Playing musical instruments, singing, dancing, writing poetry and songs, making sculptures and other art, telling tales ftom the lore, etc. are things that I imagine them doing when they aren't at war. At war, they are fierce enemies. But stoic?😂 I doubt it.
Pointed ears are based off a very obscure Quenya linguistic adaptation of the word leaf & ear, (ref Nature of Middle Earth). Note that the point would need to be subtle because Tolkien says they are not immediately discernible from Men. Also, Tolkien painted only 1 elf. Beleg Strongbow, he has long black hair (ears covered) and wares pointed shoes!
@@ZephyrOptional It is not in NoMe, but rather The Etymologies in HoMe V. The picture with Beleg also has Gwindor (Flinding) lying prone in the tree roots. While the ca. 1937 Etymologies does mention pointed ears, later etymological work (see Parma Eldalamberon 17) does not.
@@Tar-Elenion yea, but what you see of Gwindor’s side/ back (and maybe long hair) has no discernible detail at all. If Beleg wasn’t in this picture I would say Tolkien never clearly drew an elf. I’ll say it again. Tolkien only drew 1 elf we know of in his life and that’s Beleg. Even if he was clearly depicted, the wrecked & tortured form of Gwindor would not represent your typical elf anyways.
17:01 Come again? Before the advent of industrial farming, for agricultural peoples (pastoralists are a different story), cereals (as opposed to greens, beans, fruits, or what have you, which were more perishable and thus expensive than grain or flour) were cheap and meat was expensive. To the point where bread was the sole staple and anything else was a rare diversion for most of the population. Slaughtering livestock was, if anything, highly wasteful of valuable agricultural capital and done only when the animal could no longer be useful in other ways (and in that case the meat, coming from an old and/or hard-worked animal would hardly be good-quality or very nutritious). Farm labor called for near-exclusive time commitments throughout most of the year, so hunting was highly seasonal unless as a leisure activity for people already freed from doing agricultural or other labor by appropriation of surplus.
Not even Tolkien get the elves right 😅 which elf type you want to represent? The ones on The Hobbit from Rivendell, the ones on Mirkwood, the ones from Tlotr? The multiple factions on The Silmarillion? Feanor? Eol? Glorfindel 1.0 or 2.0?
He tries to be movie!Elven, and succeeds. This is obviously not something one ought to succeed at, but if he tried to honor the actual nature of Elves from the books it'd create even more controversy. Thanks to Peter Jackson, any future Elf actor is left in a no-win scenario, regardless of how rubbish or excellent the media may be in general.
Vulkans had them. I wonder if Percy Jackson modelled his elves on vulkans cause they had the emotionless, like you said ears and even the veganism. Thought spock does point out its a choice and not biological.
Yup! Just not in any of the originally published books. In letter 27, he describes hobbits as having “ears only slightly pointed and 'elvish'”, and in The Lost Road there’s a note stating that elves’ ears were “more pointed and leaf-shaped” than humans’.
Because there's an etymological association between ears and leaves in Tolkien's languages, or at least the early versions of the languages, I imagine Elven ears as pointed but not longer than Mannish ones. I like the way the artist Jenny Dolfen draws them. Not so pointy that a Man couldn't be mistaken for Elven.
Recent AI improvements seem terrifying but there may be a bright side - in a few decades, people may be able to feed LotR to an AI and get a totally accurate adaptation down to every letter.
Stay focused folks. This quality channel is based around thorough and thoughtful study of all things Tolkien. Mindlessly bashing ROP with no point doesn’t achieve anything. In my opinion, ROP elves get a B-. Jackson elves maybe get a B+. Neither captures their true complexity as our host skillfully examines. Later! I’m off to catch the sun!
@@markbertenshaw3977correct. It’s the difference between a Tolkien Lore channel (like this one) and hate tube click-bait junk channels who only know LOTR via the PJ films and have very twisted views of Tolkien’s Legendarium.
@@Enerdhil as in the PJ movies? At least those are competently written and have fairly coherent cause and effect. Rings of power has three characters that break the plot of their individual stories ie elrond, Sauron, and isildur. Lord of the rings doesn’t have that. It also doesn’t have psychotic harfoots that are supposed to be charming rustics.
@@Enerdhil admittedly yes there are a lot of clueless morons who’ve been inundated with bad shows for the past 8 years. So their standards are utterly broken.
@@lordinquisitordunn336 Honestly, I think most of the fans of the series are either blissfully ignorant or exceptionally tolerant (these being actual fans of Tolkien's lore🙄).
@@Enerdhil so, what if they have read the books and like both despite the changes and don’t much care so long as it’s reasonably coherent? The movies except the hobbit films and the books are good for different reasons. Rings of power doesn’t have any redeeming value by comparison.
"I knew that I would have the eyes of the world on me. I needed to be undeniable, and to be the most elven elf that I could be. And I needed my soul to shine through too." If you're going to discuss what the actor said please have the full quote bc he wasn't bragging about "BEING the most elven character", he just said that that was his own *personal* goal. His goal is a good goal for any actor! It shows he takes the responsibility of being an elf seriously. That should be encouraged.
@@richardkern112 Elrond can be kind as summer and still be masculine. I guess he was kind of masculine during the rock-crushing contest, but I hope we see the real masculine side of Elrond in the fight scenes in Season 2. BTW, I hate the haircut.😞
In defense of the movie writers, I think they made the right choice in moving away from the book type elf. As I have read through the books several times in my life, I have always found the elves in the books (especially in the hobbit) to be a little annoying. I don’t mourn the fact that Peter Jackson and company made that change at all.
Maeglin was a swarthy Elf in early versions (Lost Tales). At that point, he was a very different character, I don't think even Eol had been conceived yet. There was also a fat Elf from that era, Salgant. Still, I think such "early installment weirdness" can be used to argue there is conceivable room for variation from the standard. Likewise, I think the reference to "fair of skin" is in Appendix F, and referring to the Eldar rather than the Quendi, so it leaves open the possibility that the Avari could have been or become swarthy. And originally it was supposed to describe the Noldor rather than the Eldar, which makes more sense, because it says that only those of the House of Finarfin had golden hair; that is true for the Noldor but not true for the Eldar, because the Vanyar are Eldar and have golden hair. So, if we interpret that line to be about the Noldor rather than the Eldar, it leaves open the possibility that the Noldor have fair skin _relative to the Vanyar and Teleri,_ and the Eldar in general have some variation. And again within the Noldor, some of the line of Mahtan (Nerdanel and Caranthir at least) have "ruddy" (reddish) skin, which is a bit different than "fair". Finally, you should know that some might interpret your use of the word "creature" to be referring to the actor and not the character, and I'm sure you wouldn't want to come off as so Orcishly petty as that.
@@coreyander286 _>"So, if we interpret that line to be about the Noldor rather than the Eldar, it leaves open the possibility that the Noldor have fair skin relative to the Vanyar and Teleri, and the Eldar in general have some variation."
The elves hunted down the petty dwarves, thinking they were animals, in the first age. The elves ate the animals they hunted, so they ate dwarves, and probably sang jolly songs as they did.
Petty dwarves were hunted by mistake. The elves (specifically Finrod’s folk) stoped hunting them when they heard them sing. Under no conditions did the elves eat them, or vice versa, but by no means were they vegetarians as suggested in the PJ films.
The Sindar started hunting the Petty-dwarves, because the Petty-dwarves attacked the Sindar by stealth and ambush: ""The Petty-dwarves. See also Note 7. The Eldar did not at first recognize these as Incarnates, for they seldom caught sight of them in clear light. They only became aware of their existence indeed when they attacked the Eldar by stealth at night, or if they caught them alone in wild places. The Eldar therefore thought that they were a kind of cunning two-legged animals living in caves, and they called them Levain tad-dail, or simply Tad-dail, and they hunted them. But after the Eldar had made the acquaintance of the Naugrim, the Tad-dail were recognized as a variety of Dwarves and were left alone." HoMe XI, Quendi & Eldar
None of this says they didn't eat them, but they regarded them as the same kind of thing as all those other delicious animals, so it's absolutely possible. Plus it kind of makes me laugh in a very grim way about it being a possibility. #LooksLikeDwarfMeatsBackOnTheMenu
Can you make a video for twitter nerds about how tolkien didn't invent mythology pleasd? There's people who think he made elves (don't come at me with WELL THE MODERN...no, he didn't invent them, the end).
Mr. Spock is the closest to what Tolkien was picturing as elves, but with minstrel qualities. High Elves like Feanor etc, not those faggy fucking wood elves.
Sam: ''And Elves, sir! Elves here, and Elves there! Some like kings, terrible and splendid; and some as merry as children.''
Well said. Elves should be child like and full of joy and mirth when not at war. They are both wise beyond human years and full of emotion and wonder.
They are what we can be if we keep our inner child intact. Not weighed down by fleeting woes, full of life and exceptance.
But when Elves get old enough, like Cirdan, they do start to get weighed down, don't they? Isn't that one of the reasons the "Mandos hroa recycling process" is necessary? At least in some versions of Tolkien's conception of the Elvish life cycle.
Well I suppose Elves have a much longer period to process grief and loss.
I suppose they could be thought to feel emotions more intensely than mortal man, and that include the more negative emotions as well.
The oldest Elves have seen great loss and many tragedies. Most leave Middle Earth to return to Valinor to recover their joy.
Cirdan is one of the most interesting of the Elves, he is one of the oldest and one of the last to leave. I wish Tolkien had written more about him.
@@coreyander286 They do become more and more burdened by their memories, and as their bodies fade they spend more time contemplating and remembering the activities they like rather than doing them. But it's not clear Cirdan, despite his over 10,000 years in marred Middle-earth, is really different from younger elves in that regard.
It’s not much but always have to love, “What’s happening out there?” “Should I describe it to you? Or would you like me to find you a box?”
I did forget about that, but even there it’s really only because they’ve become buddies that it’s there.
@@TolkienLorePodcast all good, though I may not agree with you on all topics I do find you to be a really genuine guy and I enjoy t out r videos
@@TolkienLorePodcastI think the really sad part too is that people in current times minus a few have lost that love of poetry. Even as a gen-x, I adore all the poetry in Tolkien and feel completely immersed in those descriptions and the poems! The whole night of Ballads at Rivendell was cut out. And I really missed that in the movies. But that’s also led to some Tolkien fans bemoaning anything that’s not warrior like about Elrond. Though in history Tolkien no doubt appreciated that Warriors could also be scholars and then of course Tolkien was both soldier and scholar in his life and also loved language and poetry. To divest all poetry from Tolkien makes no sense to me at all! To be fair, I think that there are a few speeches and sense of that poetry in the movies. And those moments really reach me deeply! and it’s okay if you feel differently about that, because I do like your fair and honest presentation and perspectives.
And then when I go back to the books it makes me appreciate even more what is missing like Galadriel’s beautiful speech to Gimli and seeing her play her harp and sing her song.
But what’s heart breaking is seeing people even watch the movies and in the places where they have kept the poetry and speeches, all people want is the action. Sigh. And of course I wouldn’t have minded the singing and storytelling Legolas at all! And in that Legolas and Gimli scene and others, I filled in what was missing in my imagination!
But some current audiences are so impatient that I’m not sure they could even sit through that beauty because not everyone likes poetry. Nor appreciate fully the multifaceted nature of the elves. I think ROP is trying to give them more emotions but somehow I don’t think they believe that the elves can both be mystical and have feelings…so are attempting to tone down their magic to “make them more real,” Tolkien didn’t do that because he had the subtle touch and nuance. And if all those beautiful extra bits were kept in the movies…the movies would have been even longer and I would have been willing to watch even more…but in trying to condense the long story and yes perhaps stretching out monsters and battles too long…time was lost to include scenes or show more dimensions to the elves.
Even though I do have some quibbles with Peter Jackson on the films maybe not as many as you chuckle! I still really like him as a person. I like the way he takes time with his fans and have even seen him zoom in live twice to a Beatles fan convention. And he in that regard is humble and thoughtful and very likeable.
Another data-point: Legolas made a game out of killing orcs at Helm's Deep.
Arondir, Lord of the Single Facial Expression.
What facial expression should a soldier on-duty have?
@@Enerdhilmore than one
@@thegoblonoid
Arondir is basically an on-duty cop in the first season. That's his cop face.
Great video as always! I totally agree! The humour of the Elves is missing in all adaptations I can think of 🤔
"[Passion] can manifest in lot of ways. For Fëanor, it manifested in a lot of anger."
And seven sons.😂😆🤣
He was that furious was he?
@@elliotyourarobot
No he was that "passionate!" 🤣😆😂
@@Enerdhilindeed
Tolkien states that Elves are not vegetarian, either by nature or as a people, any more than Men are: "Some of the Eldar (and some Men) eschew the slaying of _kelvar_ ['animals'] to use their bodies as meat, feeling that these bodies, resembling in different degrees their own, are in some way too near akin. (Yet none of the Eldar hold that the eating of flesh, not being the flesh of the Incarnate and hallowed by the indwelling of the _fëa_ ['spirit'], is sinful or against the will of Eru.)" - _The Nature of Middle-earth_ , p. 271
Further proof that I need to read NOME again 😅
The Bakshi film does portray Legolas as being sort of childlike - but we're not given the jokes or songs. Maybe these are difficult to do in an adaptation and so they tend to focus more on the warrior and age-old wisdom stuff. Galadriel in Jackson's Return of the King does give us a cheeky grin as she gets on the last ship, which is the only hint we are given in the entire LotR franchise that Elves can be playful. But Arondir never seems to smile at all. In RoP, Elrond is actually the most elfy Elf - in contrast to the dour version of him in the Jackson films. Tauriel perhaps comes closest to a true Tolkienian Elf in Jackson's movies, because Evangeline Lily actually gives a very "human" portrayal of the character, with the full range of emotions: there's a very elvish lightness and joy as well as sadness in her.
One of the best explorations of elven nature I have come across. Thankyou.
I've heard the suggestion that Tolkien's elves are based partly on the Tuatha de Danann of Irish mythology, who could be mischievous or warlike or both at once, but who just didn't seem to have any middle gears.
The salad scene in the Hobbit movies came across, to me, as the elves deliberately annoying the dwarves, in a bit of a cheeky, silly, harmless way, and that's probably the closest I've ever seen on-screen elves get to that sense of humour they did have in the books. I don't know if it was intended that way or not, but that's what I got from it.
Maybe the vegetarian meal was just an elf joke for the dwarves when the elves were eating roasted mutton they hunted that morning in the next room over.
The first meeting with every elven group comes with a joke. Gildor and Rivendell as you said, and in Lothlorien: 'Yes, they are Elves,' said Legolas; 'and they say that you breathe so
loud that they could shoot you in the dark.' Sam hastily put his hand over
his mouth.
It's obviously a joke and not a mean one like in the movie.
Great video btw
When Arondir speaks with his "coworker" at the southlands in the first episode after he spoke with Bronwyn , I think they mock each other with jokes and Galadriel also mentions that she made fun of Celebrimbor before he went to war. But still i would see more of these, cause i love these cheeky attitudes of elves. Gildor is one of my favourite characters actually.
2:43 I didn't see all that much of RoP, just snippets in criticism, but my impression is Arondir pretty much goes for Stoic, and I'd definitely not call that an Elvish trait.
It always seemed to me that Tolkien's Elves have been portrayed too similar to Vulcans from Star Trek, almost as it there was a link between stoicism and having pointed ears.
Its interesting to see which of the general impressions of Tolkien’s races and creatures become most widespread.
Bearded Aragorns, Scottish dwarves, dragons get bigger and bigger etc
One that always amuses me is the idea that Bombadil is some guy in total harmony with nature in his Forest. And then you read the poems and he’s just constantly in confrontations and having to get himself out of them!
Well, nature is always in a state of both harmony and confrontation with itself, so Tom Bombadil can be one with nature and in repeated confrontation with it without contradiction.
Apparently Dwarves being Scottish comes from the Poul Anderson book _Three Hearts and Three Lions._ And in Russian-language adaptations, Dwarves have Georgian accents.
Tom Bombadil in Zen Meditation.🙄
Maybe the Elves in The Hobbit 2 movie were just trolling the dwarves with the salads only meal.
I can just see it; Sam comes back from visiting the elves and introduces Tater Salad to The Hobbit world
Imagining that is the only way I can bear to watch that scene, and I'm a rare fan of those films.
For those who don't know the way elves in these stories actually are is more inline with how the culture of the Star Trek Vulcans is described before they used "logic" to overcome their strong feelings.
I see the connection (and don’t know too much about Vulcans) but I don’t think elves are driven by logic as much as they are driven by oath, passion, and duty. They can be very logical but passion (as mentioned by our esteemed host) seems to be their main driving force. Thoughts?
@@troupemusographes2460ever watch Lenard Nimoy sign his Bilbo “song”? 😬
@@ZephyrOptional ...before they used 'logic'...
@@BLynn haha, I’m sure elves used logic to sort out their passionate behavior!
Yeah, pre-Surak Vulcans might be a good analogy here. Though technically we kinda see the modern equivalent of pre-Surak Vulcans in person, in the form of Those Who March Beneath the Raptor's Wings - i.e. Romulans - and they aren't that close to the mark either so... eh, who knows.
Ok now here is a thing. The light that glows around the elves that lived in the light of the two trees.
That is never addressed. And also how tall they were.
Maybe the adaptations confused elves and Vulcans…
Given that I once read a fanfic where Legolas went into a condition resembling pon farr...
Sometimes like a great tree in flower, sometimes like a white daffadowndilly, small and slender like. Hard as di’monds, soft as moonlight. Warm as sunlight, cold as frost in the stars. Proud and far-off as a snow-mountain, and as merry as any lass I ever saw with daisies in her hair in springtime
Nazgul? Small fry. Raging blizzard? Barely an inconvenience. Balrog? O.O Almost sounds like elves are playing the game on easy and they know it.
Also, we do get moments of levity from the elves in the film trilogies. Legolas cracking jokes at Gimli's expense like at Helm's deep and their kill count contest. Such as how he just starts counting out loud after cheerfully telling Gimli how far ahead of him he is.
Elrond interacting with Gandalf in Unexpected Journey before the council meeting, the only time we really see him in the films without anything serious occupying his mind. Galadriel welcoming Gandalf at said meeting and the look she shares with him when she realizes he knew the dwarves would leave.
There are fewer moments than in the book for sure, but the films do try to take themselves a little more seriously at times. I mean, try to imagine how the scene at the pass in Fellowship would go if Legolas was joking around as he does in the book in what is supposed to be a very tense scene for the fellowship.
You said it! Tolkien’s elves are multidimensional! I think Samwise Ganges round this up nicely. And I was reminded of that after watching a podcast of Girl Next Gondor in which she referenced how Sam describes Galadriel from as hard as a diamond to her merry laugh.
On the way the elven houses are sown in the movies this comes down more to John Howe and Alan Lee as artists and their imaginations.
Interestingly John Howe imagined Rivendell as a castle. Whereas Alan Lee imagined the more blended into nature look. And I have a feeling that these artists prior to the adaptations already had their own visions of Tolkien simply from reading the books. As they had been Tolkien artists from many years before.
I liked both their depictions alas!
Now as for the salad eating elves my guess probably more Jackson’s wife who is probably a vegan. And yes I did think to myself but they did hunt…
I have a different take on the trees…I think some of that comes from Tolkien himself…and more than a love of simply their usefulness…and their prettiness.
Thought I saw an old interview of Tolkien in which he expresses something about a tree having thoughts or feelings in real life and is empathetic towards that…
And even though Jackson certainly bumped a lot of things around and changed them…it seemed to me that Legolas did give a longer speech about the forest being old and full of memory. And I guess that’s why it never really stood out to me as all that strange.
Whereas the salad eating elves did because it was more obvious oh elves would be “vegetarians” because…
Also thought that because the elves are tied elementally into Arda in a way different than humans their connection would just be part of how the world works. But that’s just my take.
Arondir is another variety of the elven trope a consensus at some point invented and became the accepted idea. Sam and Frodo also show a particular love of nature and cultivation being balanced and not needlessly intrusive.
Melon Geek, It is always a joy to view your video and fill my mind again with Tolkien instead of the terrible world we are living in. You remind me of many facets of the elves that I knew, but had not thought about in some time. It is true: the elves are not given a good representation in film. However, I do not think all of the characters done in cinema are equally as bad. My personal favorite is Galadriel. I think Kate Blanchet and Peter Jackson did a good job with her character. She lacked the golden hair in preference for the flax locks Jackson seemed to favor. But her demeanor was serious, considering the mood of the Quest. She also showed emotion, albeit with an enhanced CGI when she refused the Ring. But also telling was her conclusion when the effects ceased and she declared that she would "remain Galadriel" and go into the West. I also think her dialogue with Gimli over his gift was very telling. It wasn't as good as the book, but it was good. But really, my dear melon, your reading of Gildor's words and description brought back such good memories. I truly hope these proposed new series of LotR do not omit any of these great characters. One day, you and I will have to indulge in smoke rings and long conversation on these themes. Till then, namarie.
Not a big fan of "Witchy" Galadriel, though it is better than Amazonian-revenge-seeking Galadriel.
But in the book Galadriel LAUGHED when she heard Frodo offering the Ring to her and then she LAUGHED again after she resisted the temptation. She's much more lighthearted.
@@Laurelin70 Yes, but my point is that in the movie she did show emotion.
I always felt that the elves in Rivendell in the Hobbit (book) were at odds with all the other elves, even with (book) Legolas' playful and teasing side. My headcanon explains it as this particular bunch of elves being drunk.
Bilbo saw drunk Elves in Mirkwood. Frodo and Sam met joyful laughing Elves in the form of Gildor and the Elves of Imladris.
Treebeard says that even the Elves don't care very much about the forests anymore. I think many adaptions add qualities of Elves from other IPs.
No, Treebeard says that not even the Elves care for forests as much as Ents do.
So, my only guess is that considering they were going for a bit more of the playfulness and the Jackson movies for the hobbits you know being a bit more childlike and playful I guess they wanted to contrast the elves from everyone else by the logic of well these guys have lived for thousands of years so maybe they would be a bit more reserved I suppose?
Very nuanced analysis of the Elves, and very accurate might I add!! I am not keeping track of the rings of power or any online disputes but I’m so glad we can just go back to Tolkiens work and get so much more than whatever these adaptations have going on.
The Rings of Power season two trailer tells me all I need to know, it has nothing at all to do with Tolkien, and nothing of value would be gained by me watching it. NO HATE WATCHING either. You're better then that. Reject the ways of the Nerd.
Actually I got good laughs seeing how silly the dialogs went, good for me.
Like watching unintentional chaplins.
I love Tolkien's books and I liked season 1. Season 2 looks very promising, too.
What are elves, that is a very loaded question. It has more to do with out individual expectations as we want to admit. In the context of Tolkiens writing they were the precursors of humans. They looked like humans, procreated like humans, ate like humans and had the same physiological processes as we do. By the same token they are different as well because they have more time to do things, get to be more proficient at anything they want to do, because they do not die and leave the world, except by violence or in some cases if they loose the will to go on. In a way Tolkien grappled with the concept of a non human, but human looking species. Indeed all of the intelligent species in Arda are base level humanoids, even the ents. In fact the ents are the only species that rightly could be called non predatory, they did not hunt and they did not use wooden implements, only things made of stone. And they were the only beings that could be described as stoic, even to the point that some of them became tree-ish. To me elves are as variegated as humans are, there are many of them described, some in loving detail by the author, there is no singular feature except for their shape that describes them. And that is the point. Tolkien wanted to describe people and their deeds, he was not interested in racial bias!
Short clip of Tolkien talking about trees
Of course he himself is neither a vegetarian and definitely appreciates a merry fire…and wood for houses…
Interesting how he says he’s “enormously attracted to trees and ? in a ? simple minded way he would like to have found out what a tree feels about things. Tolkien is multi faceted himself!!! Love it!!
ruclips.net/video/5BW4cuB3CEo/видео.htmlfeature=shared
There are Elves who have never been on screen that are more Elvish then anyone. Elwe a/k/a Elu Thingol, Fingolfin, Finarfin, & Finrod Feligund & of course book Galadriel & Elrond.
13:37 I'm going to take a wild guess that D&D plays a part in this.
24:38 Amen. For a long time I had only read the books in my language, and decided a few years ago that I need to read the original versions too. And while I was reading LotR, I realized I was reading the full book only for the second time, and the first time was before the movies came out. Surprisingly enough, I became much more critical of the movies.
One shorter question: any thoughts on how elves age? After The Nature of Middle Earth came out, a few people have come to the conclusion that elves mature mentally slower than humans because of their long lives. So much so to the place where some believe an elf that lives for 2000 human years would be no more mentally mature than a teenager or a twenty-something. Whereas in other of Tolkiens writings it’s suggested by the time an elf is One year old (their cycle) that they can already talk, read, write, sing and dance and come to a quick mental acuity.
I’m wondering if either Tolkien changes his mind or if people are interpreting the same thing two different ways?
Or if perhaps that innate “childlike” essence of the elves confuses people so they perceive elves to be “maturing mentally slower,” rather than recognizing something that is just one of those many facets you mention of their characters???
Any thoughts??
I think any references to them aging slowly are always to their physical aging. I’m pretty sure all explicit references to their mental aging indicate they do so faster than humans.
Thank you 🙏 that’s what seems most natural to me too. I meant to say that in above post it’s a measure of their VITALITY not their MENTALITY. And it’s something that perhaps is becoming lost in translation. ;-)
21:05 elves don't get tired of everything? I thought that was the whole reason they eventually choose to leave Middle Earth?
They grow weary of their long life and the burden of their memory, not the world itself.
@@TolkienLorePodcast Maybe Tolkien doesn't dwell on it with the particular characters (admittedly I've only read the Hobbit and LOTR), but if you're weary of life on (Middle) Earth and the burden of your memory, that would seem to imply a certain melancholy/world-weariness. But you're definitely right that since none of the characters you mentioned are shown as they're preparing to leave, the media definitely overdoes the stoicism/aloofness.
Hello mate, historian of the early modern Mediterranean here. Naturally I have to be that guy who feels the need to nitpick something really small, despite broadly agreeing with the point you were making (Tolkien did not intend elves to be vegetarians at all - though the Nature of Middle Earth suggests vegetarianism was practised by some elves and men). You said that vegetarianism was very hard to sustain in premodern societies due to the difficulty of making up the required nutrients/calories. While not strictly 'vegetarianism', I think evidence suggests that the opposite tends to be the case for your average premodern commoner living outside the city; their meat intake would have been lower in general than people during and after the industrial era, maybe like the average flexitarian today. I have just been reading the excellent 'Native Nations' by Kathleen DuVal, and there is a great example of this from just under a thousand years ago not too far from you. When the great pyramid city of Cahokia came to dominate the upper Mississippi, material wealth and wellbeing for the privileged of the city increased, while nutritional standards in the surrounding tributary towns were not as high and perhaps decreased compared to what those people had had in generations before, as they began to send all their meat, fish, nuts, etc. into Cahokia rather than being able to keep much for themselves. Perhaps outside the warrior classes, the men of Middle Earth similarly held meat and fish as a luxury unless they happened to live in a forest or next to a river or coastline. The Rohirrim probably had lamb as a go-to: all that steppe for herding on. As horse-lords, they probably retained the cultural practice of bleeding their horses for sustenance in times of dire need, especially if on the move. Perhaps black pudding is a delicacy there...?
I would love to see your reaction on the new animated movie war of the rohirem
I imagine there must be some non-Tolkien visual media that include elves (or elves in all but name) which are close to the true Tolkien elves. I'm not aware of any specific example though. I do recall some D&D advice channel encouraging role-players to role-play elves in such a way, laughing at seemingly inappropriate moments.
I always thought their love of jewels childish.
I have the same shirt as you!
Elves are a bit like Doctor Who I always think.
My take on Tolkien's Elves has been, minus a few exceptions like the Fëanorians and Eöl and Maeglin, they are the people that God had intended Adam and Eve to be before the Fall of Man, Men being those who Fell.
Thinking of the Elves this way makes it easy for me to undertsand why the Valar were so adamant about bringing the Elves to Aman (Eden). Also, all Elves who die in Middle Earth end up in the Halls of Mandos before being reembodied in Aman (Eden).
So I think Elves are righteous and filled with the joy of life. Playing musical instruments, singing, dancing, writing poetry and songs, making sculptures and other art, telling tales ftom the lore, etc. are things that I imagine them doing when they aren't at war.
At war, they are fierce enemies.
But stoic?😂 I doubt it.
Elves in the media have become a race of somewhat serious interior decorators. Also... Where did the pointy ears come from?
Pointed ears are based off a very obscure Quenya linguistic adaptation of the word leaf & ear, (ref Nature of Middle Earth). Note that the point would need to be subtle because Tolkien says they are not immediately discernible from Men. Also, Tolkien painted only 1 elf. Beleg Strongbow, he has long black hair (ears covered) and wares pointed shoes!
@@ZephyrOptional It is not in NoMe, but rather The Etymologies in HoMe V. The picture with Beleg also has Gwindor (Flinding) lying prone in the tree roots.
While the ca. 1937 Etymologies does mention pointed ears, later etymological work (see Parma Eldalamberon 17) does not.
@@Tar-Elenion yea but you can’t see Gwindor, just Beleg… point?
@@ZephyrOptional I can to see him. Picture 37, he is laying prone in the tree roots.
@@Tar-Elenion yea, but what you see of Gwindor’s side/ back (and maybe long hair) has no discernible detail at all. If Beleg wasn’t in this picture I would say Tolkien never clearly drew an elf. I’ll say it again. Tolkien only drew 1 elf we know of in his life and that’s Beleg. Even if he was clearly depicted, the wrecked & tortured form of Gwindor would not represent your typical elf anyways.
17:01 Come again? Before the advent of industrial farming, for agricultural peoples (pastoralists are a different story), cereals (as opposed to greens, beans, fruits, or what have you, which were more perishable and thus expensive than grain or flour) were cheap and meat was expensive. To the point where bread was the sole staple and anything else was a rare diversion for most of the population. Slaughtering livestock was, if anything, highly wasteful of valuable agricultural capital and done only when the animal could no longer be useful in other ways (and in that case the meat, coming from an old and/or hard-worked animal would hardly be good-quality or very nutritious). Farm labor called for near-exclusive time commitments throughout most of the year, so hunting was highly seasonal unless as a leisure activity for people already freed from doing agricultural or other labor by appropriation of surplus.
Again, though, I’m referring to the diets of people who spent a lot of time as warriors. You don’t see medieval knights living off bread and produce.
@@TolkienLorePodcast Those would be the appropriators of surplus and possessors of leisure time.
Not even Tolkien get the elves right 😅 which elf type you want to represent? The ones on The Hobbit from Rivendell, the ones on Mirkwood, the ones from Tlotr? The multiple factions on The Silmarillion? Feanor? Eol? Glorfindel 1.0 or 2.0?
Tolkien Geek, have you seen Brennan Lee Mulligan dunking on Elves (in a DnD game)? Its the LotR elves and he brilliantly makes fun of them.
I sure haven’t.
It could be that he is trying to be the most elven.
He tries to be movie!Elven, and succeeds. This is obviously not something one ought to succeed at, but if he tried to honor the actual nature of Elves from the books it'd create even more controversy. Thanks to Peter Jackson, any future Elf actor is left in a no-win scenario, regardless of how rubbish or excellent the media may be in general.
About pointy ears, does Tolkien say anything about elves having them?
Vulkans had them. I wonder if Percy Jackson modelled his elves on vulkans cause they had the emotionless, like you said ears and even the veganism. Thought spock does point out its a choice and not biological.
Yup! Just not in any of the originally published books. In letter 27, he describes hobbits as having “ears only slightly pointed and 'elvish'”, and in The Lost Road there’s a note stating that elves’ ears were “more pointed and leaf-shaped” than humans’.
Because there's an etymological association between ears and leaves in Tolkien's languages, or at least the early versions of the languages, I imagine Elven ears as pointed but not longer than Mannish ones. I like the way the artist Jenny Dolfen draws them. Not so pointy that a Man couldn't be mistaken for Elven.
There's nothing about rings of power worth mentioning
Please don't try to make me watch Rings of Power content again.
lol I’m not watching Season 2 either
My guess is that elves are incredible procrastinators lol
People who think Elves are stoic are admitting they never read or listened to the source material.
Recent AI improvements seem terrifying but there may be a bright side - in a few decades, people may be able to feed LotR to an AI and get a totally accurate adaptation down to every letter.
🙄
No, please trash Rings of Power more.
There are plenty of channels which do that. The good thing about this channel is the positivity.
@@markbertenshaw3977
Positivity?!😂
Stay focused folks. This quality channel is based around thorough and thoughtful study of all things Tolkien. Mindlessly bashing ROP with no point doesn’t achieve anything. In my opinion, ROP elves get a B-. Jackson elves maybe get a B+. Neither captures their true complexity as our host skillfully examines. Later! I’m off to catch the sun!
@@markbertenshaw3977correct. It’s the difference between a Tolkien Lore channel (like this one) and hate tube click-bait junk channels who only know LOTR via the PJ films and have very twisted views of Tolkien’s Legendarium.
It’s the most logical thing to do.
Are there fans of rings of power who aren’t mentally deficient or insane? I haven’t found any that don’t fall into one or both of those categories.
@@lordinquisitordunn336
How about the ignorant or clueless fans of the series?
@@Enerdhil as in the PJ movies? At least those are competently written and have fairly coherent cause and effect. Rings of power has three characters that break the plot of their individual stories ie elrond, Sauron, and isildur. Lord of the rings doesn’t have that. It also doesn’t have psychotic harfoots that are supposed to be charming rustics.
@@Enerdhil admittedly yes there are a lot of clueless morons who’ve been inundated with bad shows for the past 8 years. So their standards are utterly broken.
@@lordinquisitordunn336
Honestly, I think most of the fans of the series are either blissfully ignorant or exceptionally tolerant (these being actual fans of Tolkien's lore🙄).
@@Enerdhil so, what if they have read the books and like both despite the changes and don’t much care so long as it’s reasonably coherent? The movies except the hobbit films and the books are good for different reasons. Rings of power doesn’t have any redeeming value by comparison.
Wonder if percy jackson modelled his elves on Vulkans.
"I knew that I would have the eyes of the world on me. I needed to be undeniable, and to be the most elven elf that I could be. And I needed my soul to shine through too."
If you're going to discuss what the actor said please have the full quote bc he wasn't bragging about "BEING the most elven character", he just said that that was his own *personal* goal.
His goal is a good goal for any actor! It shows he takes the responsibility of being an elf seriously. That should be encouraged.
Good discussion otherwise, though. Always great to return to the text!!
I hate what Amazon did to the Legendarium, but I thought Ismael portrayed an Elf better than the other actors did.
@@Enerdhil tbh I think RoP's Elrond is a better portrayal than Jackson's bc he's actually Kind as Summer
@@richardkern112
Elrond can be kind as summer and still be masculine. I guess he was kind of masculine during the rock-crushing contest, but I hope we see the real masculine side of Elrond in the fight scenes in Season 2.
BTW, I hate the haircut.😞
First
To think that Peter Jackson's LOTR trilogy was the closest we got to an accurate depiction of Tolkien's work- yet it's still miles off!
In defense of the movie writers, I think they made the right choice in moving away from the book type elf. As I have read through the books several times in my life, I have always found the elves in the books (especially in the hobbit) to be a little annoying. I don’t mourn the fact that Peter Jackson and company made that change at all.
I seem to recall Tolkien writing that all elves are tall and fair of face. This creature, for sme reason called an "elf" stunted and swarthy.
Maeglin was a swarthy Elf in early versions (Lost Tales). At that point, he was a very different character, I don't think even Eol had been conceived yet. There was also a fat Elf from that era, Salgant. Still, I think such "early installment weirdness" can be used to argue there is conceivable room for variation from the standard.
Likewise, I think the reference to "fair of skin" is in Appendix F, and referring to the Eldar rather than the Quendi, so it leaves open the possibility that the Avari could have been or become swarthy. And originally it was supposed to describe the Noldor rather than the Eldar, which makes more sense, because it says that only those of the House of Finarfin had golden hair; that is true for the Noldor but not true for the Eldar, because the Vanyar are Eldar and have golden hair.
So, if we interpret that line to be about the Noldor rather than the Eldar, it leaves open the possibility that the Noldor have fair skin _relative to the Vanyar and Teleri,_ and the Eldar in general have some variation.
And again within the Noldor, some of the line of Mahtan (Nerdanel and Caranthir at least) have "ruddy" (reddish) skin, which is a bit different than "fair".
Finally, you should know that some might interpret your use of the word "creature" to be referring to the actor and not the character, and I'm sure you wouldn't want to come off as so Orcishly petty as that.
@@coreyander286 _>"So, if we interpret that line to be about the Noldor rather than the Eldar, it leaves open the possibility that the Noldor have fair skin relative to the Vanyar and Teleri, and the Eldar in general have some variation."
I replied to coreyander286, but YT is hiding the comment. Sort comment section by newest first and it may show up.
@@coreyander286nice cope
The elves hunted down the petty dwarves, thinking they were animals, in the first age. The elves ate the animals they hunted, so they ate dwarves, and probably sang jolly songs as they did.
Petty dwarves were hunted by mistake. The elves (specifically Finrod’s folk) stoped hunting them when they heard them sing. Under no conditions did the elves eat them, or vice versa, but by no means were they vegetarians as suggested in the PJ films.
@@ZephyrOptional The Sindar stopped hunting the Petty-dwarves before the Noldor returned to Middle-earth.
The Sindar started hunting the Petty-dwarves, because the Petty-dwarves attacked the Sindar by stealth and ambush:
""The Petty-dwarves. See also Note 7. The Eldar did not at first recognize these as Incarnates, for they seldom caught sight of them in clear light. They only became aware of their existence indeed when they attacked the Eldar by stealth at night, or if they caught them alone in wild places. The Eldar therefore thought that they were a kind of cunning two-legged animals living in caves, and they called them Levain tad-dail, or simply Tad-dail, and they hunted them. But after the Eldar had made the acquaintance of the Naugrim, the Tad-dail were recognized as a variety of Dwarves and were left alone."
HoMe XI, Quendi & Eldar
None of this says they didn't eat them, but they regarded them as the same kind of thing as all those other delicious animals, so it's absolutely possible. Plus it kind of makes me laugh in a very grim way about it being a possibility. #LooksLikeDwarfMeatsBackOnTheMenu
Petty Dwarves tasted like chicken.
Maybe the elves were hunting ents and eating their leaves 😆
Can you make a video for twitter nerds about how tolkien didn't invent mythology pleasd? There's people who think he made elves (don't come at me with WELL THE MODERN...no, he didn't invent them, the end).
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Mr. Spock is the closest to what Tolkien was picturing as elves, but with minstrel qualities. High Elves like Feanor etc, not those faggy fucking wood elves.