Bloody good call by KLM. Go-itis can be deadly. If the load sheet was incorrect then the flight needs to be re-planned in full to ensure safe margins for all phases of flight. Shortcuts in such things are unsafe, unprofessional and unworthy of an outstanding carrier like KLM. Good job KLM operations and SFO ATC in this instance.
@@joyrider6456 I agree, however, they are partially to blame by not training aircrew to speak up when this sort of uncertainty arises. I am pretty confident that all airlines, KLM included, started paying a lot more attention to CRM after the Tennerife incident.
"The controllers here are the worst" says the guy who hot keys and ignores 3 (4?) calls from the tower about it, who is trying to remain as civil as possible. 🤣
American Airlines is literally the worst. I hope they sacked the pilot for it. Dudes complaining flying a bucket with an interior worse than a school bus. It’s a trash airline.
@@ArbitraryConstant The correct term is "hot mic". This term is used for the transmit button being pressed and not released when the transmission is over. On a radio, you press the transmit button(key), talk, then release the button(key). The tx button can be locked into the transmit position or it can also stick due to being dirty, or defective, or it can get caught between the pilot and the arm rest of their seat. Most of the time it gets locked on accident, or the foot Press to Talk button doesn't get released because the pilot's big foot doesn't clear it. Whatever the cause, the captured conversation is beyond unprofessional.
I imagine not only does he get in trouble for the things he said about "these controllers" but also having evidence of breaking the 'sterile cockpit' rule that close to the airport.
This gave me flashbacks to childhood when Mom called friend's parents to cancel the clearance to go to the movie. Not the best way to learn you're grounded. 😂
Especially when the 5th grade plane spotter club is there to capture the spectacle of ARFF putting out your brake fire. 🔥🚒📹🫣 Maybe it would be best to stay home with a "stomach ache" on Monday morning. 🤣 @OH-te6wr
I must say: I can ONLY follow most of that talk 'cause I've watched a lot of 74 gear videos where Kelsey explained a lot ATC vs pilot happenings. Thanks for sharing!
For cargo its not just weight thats an issue it could also be material, the dont want to load certain cargo in certain positions on the plane, or could be discovered that someone mislabeled somethign hazardous as non hazardous and that cargo now needs to be checked to ensure its loaded correctly. Both of those have been the cause of incidents.
@@ImpendingJoker Ooh, I didn't realize they were overwritten every flight. But still, if there is an incident that would still be part of the recording. You never know what can happen.
They only record the last x minutes and are constant recorded over. They "only" hold something between 30-240 mins of recordings. That is also why whenever there has been an incident and they land, that the pilots need to remember to cut the circuit breaker to the recorder, to prevent it from being recorded over.
I was a railroader in the '00s, and I can tell you that conversation in the cab often became a union meeting/B*tch and moan session about supervision and management, as well as the idiot dispatcher of the moment. I feel for the current guys who are going to have to work with recorded in-cab conversations and inward facing cameras now. The concept of a "sterile" cockpit or cab would be an alien idea to most railroaders.
Explaining the company cancellation. My speculation. Before every commercial flight, the plane load must be calculated and the cargo securred. Essentially, the plane has to be balanced in certain way when taking off and flying. Usually, a flight is not stopped because something was delivered late to cargo or the cargo is unpaid. This is a cargo plane so my best guess is that the equivalent of a loadmaster reviewed the numbers and was unsatisfied. Sometimes it can be funny. I am waiting in Honolulu on the tarmac for a hop to one of the islands. The pilot is late. People jump in the plane. I say everyone is going to be deplaned and weighed and seated based on weight. One overweight lady was greatly offended. Yep. They all got off!
More likely the dispatcher. That is the person that can cancel clearances. This happens all too frequently when load planners deliver large weight changes after pushback. I had to stop a 747 just as he was turning on to the runway once and had to send others back to the gate almost monthly for load issues.
I think not so much a pilot deviation as a necessary precaution to make sure aviation stays safe. I mean, if you pricipally distrust ATC at an airport, that for sure won't help you follow their instructions to get your plane safely on the ground when push comes to shove. And I expect there'll also be a subtle "we heard some things that your chief pilot will want to hear".
Why are the radios still so bad in the 21st century? You'd think they'd be digital by now. Do you get a special course to understand voices barely differentiable from static when becoming a pilot? Because I barely if at all understood most of these, let alone those even marked as unintelligible in the subtitles.
I think most ATC recordings we have on RUclips are not the original ones (like they are recorded on not-fly approved radio or custom equipment, etc.), neither near the quality of audio these people hear when talking to each other.
Fair enough, but the only reason they can pick them up "low quality", is because they are fundamentally the same old school analogue radios, even if the quality with a proper equipment would be better than this most of the time, I would also agree, or hope so anyway. If they were digital, a recording like that, if not encrypted or something like that, would largely be as crisp as the microphones pick it up. Since the information density isn't increasing, you could make the encoding more than redundant enough that the effective range would likely be increased if anything, and probably even add some encoded data alongside it on top, to be automatically fed to computers.
It is incredibly dificult to upgrade such system in critical and large infrastructure. The problem is unless you manage to upgrade the system at least nation wide if not world wide, you end up with both planes and airports having to support both systems. And upgrading at the scale of country is not easy as you will have to upgrade all the little private planes, aerodromes... And current AM radios are probably concidered good enough so the insentive to have to put money into a onther system is not their. We are only seeing what is being heard but AM might have advantages over even digital. AM certainly has more range than FM which has bettr audio for example. Unless a major policy maker like the US or Europe impose the use of digital, it wont happen and its not clear if that is even desirable.
Yes. It's not a center of gravity issue here, rather incorrect calculation of the performance of the aircraft that needs to be inserted all over again. It was mentioned they did take off half an hour later without displacing anything. In any other case they would be instructed to taxi back to the cargo ramp, from the Ground station.
KLM can’t contact the flight directly? It’s a heavy. No satellite comm? The SFO controller went above what’s expected to facilitate the klm’s departure. 👍
They can, they have company communications on the plane however these are text based and usually very low priority for pilots when it comes to operations. Without the ATC cancelling they probably would have long been in the air before they reviewed any company communications.
@@cyclobs2 Exactly. Cockpit crews are not paying much attention to inbound messages while they're about to line up (especially at SFO, given that they are busy sweating a departure runway change).
@FlightFollower - you guys have good videos, but can you trim it up so we only hear the incident aircraft and don’t have to listen to all the other planes and everything else going on? It would really shorten the videos!
So.. Tower calls the plane - by radio - to tell them their radio is still on transmit? They must believe that plane has a very special radio set... able to hear the tower on the frequency they themselves are blocking by transmitting on it. 😮
@Nikolas_A That's clever, but normally that would be desensitised by the own transmission and unable to receive either. Ask anyone who tried to work 'duplex' with normal radios.
@@F.E.TermanNot true. Two independent VHF simplex radios sitting side-by-side tuned to different frequencies can be simultaneously used. You can be transmitting on one while listening to another.
@@Nikolas_AThe "guard" freq is monitored on a normal radio. Nothing at all 'special' about it... Often times there are only two radios (if that many) and "Guard" (121.5) is monitored "when able" by the aircrew. Typically in the terminal environment, the second radio is already loaded with your third frequency down the line (with current and next freqs being loaded into the primary radio) so that switching frequencies when assigned is as simple as rotating the "XMIT Select" knob.
@@I_know_you_are_right_however The 121.5 receiver is not ideal. It is very insensitive on other channels, but the stuck transmitter is _very_ close. Likewise, the stuck transmitter is not ideal. It emits very little on other frequencies, but the 121.5 receiver is _very_ close. If you are interested, google 'spectral purity receiver', 'vhf repeater design' (a repeater must receive and transmit simultaneously, and so ends up having to use very sharp and expensive external filters and can work on only one specific frequency pair), et cetera. Of course in case of a stuck mike, the tower could call the _other_ planes on 121.5 to put them on a new channel, if necessary. That's what we do in a case like that. Another reason to know that in the video the tower was not using 121.5 is that in that case, we would have heard the two transmissions at the same time, because the video maker would have used two receivers. (Not just one, because there is no way he could have known when and how long to switch frequencies).
Really… It doesn’t matter because far too many pilots doesn’t listen before they key anyway. I can confirm this, I am a retired controller from Chicago, and this is a big problem. I cannot tell you how many times I have issued a clearance to a pilot only to have his read back stepped on by someone who got a freq change, flipped the switch and called on without listening.
@@efoxxok7478 still, in response to Agent1996, you can be with a controller for several minutes, told to report over a weigh point, you are listening, you wait for the break in his instructions to others, then you call to report over and at the end you realize you stepped on him. Cannot tell you have many times this happens and it is NOT from getting a frequency change and is NOT from lack of listening; let alone how many times it happens when other pilots step on each other in Class C trying to get clearance in a busy zone. There needs to be new technology that prevents stepping on.
That only works when there are just two people on frequency. All aviation RT operators know when a transmission has ended, over and out are redundant in standard aviation phraseology.
ok.. bottom line,, I have seen so many situations,, a 747 being 2k kilos of is nothing, sometimes even a 727 being 2k kilos off is nothing, most loadmasters do not understand their jobs..I await the shitstorm..
Boeing CEO :... naaaa its fine, the load will need 22 degree on the elevator and it can actually do 25 .... So ... autopilot will take care of them, probably a short route and they are carrying extra fuel.
No way can flying for an airline be actually enjoyable any longer. Collect up all the one off situations where behavior ended in disaster then make a regulation or policy on it. Hell you might as well send it all to computers and put no one in the cockpit. Lol.. Airline pilot what a wonderful life.. Not...
They get paid a stupid amount of money for a very small amount of work. Especially with pilots unions. The recent delta pilots contract is somthing you would (never) see as a normal employee at any company. Never, ever feel bad for a pilot at a major airline.
@@MrWaltjam spent my whole life around it and in it. Sorry not sorry. Keep working your way through the regionals and then it’s goofy cash unless you’re trash.
Thanks for manning up to whoever called for them to stop rather a than having a potential disaster.
that’s just culture which allows people to admit mistakes
Last pilot was sent to the principal's office and had to write "I love air traffic controllers" 200 times on the board.
😂😂
Bloody good call by KLM. Go-itis can be deadly. If the load sheet was incorrect then the flight needs to be re-planned in full to ensure safe margins for all phases of flight. Shortcuts in such things are unsafe, unprofessional and unworthy of an outstanding carrier like KLM. Good job KLM operations and SFO ATC in this instance.
A lesson they presumably learned after Tenerife?
Always double check…
@@Fidd88-mc4szThat was the pilot who was fully to blame, nót the airline.
@@joyrider6456 I agree, however, they are partially to blame by not training aircrew to speak up when this sort of uncertainty arises. I am pretty confident that all airlines, KLM included, started paying a lot more attention to CRM after the Tennerife incident.
"The controllers here are the worst" says the guy who hot keys and ignores 3 (4?) calls from the tower about it, who is trying to remain as civil as possible. 🤣
That "have a great day" from the controller 😂
what does "hot keys" mean
American Airlines is literally the worst. I hope they sacked the pilot for it. Dudes complaining flying a bucket with an interior worse than a school bus. It’s a trash airline.
@@ArbitraryConstant The correct term is "hot mic". This term is used for the transmit button being pressed and not released when the transmission is over. On a radio, you press the transmit button(key), talk, then release the button(key). The tx button can be locked into the transmit position or it can also stick due to being dirty, or defective, or it can get caught between the pilot and the arm rest of their seat. Most of the time it gets locked on accident, or the foot Press to Talk button doesn't get released because the pilot's big foot doesn't clear it. Whatever the cause, the captured conversation is beyond unprofessional.
@@ImpendingJoker key is the name for the push to talk switch. Like key in keyboard I guess.
I imagine not only does he get in trouble for the things he said about "these controllers" but also having evidence of breaking the 'sterile cockpit' rule that close to the airport.
This is the comment I came looking for.
This gave me flashbacks to childhood when Mom called friend's parents to cancel the clearance to go to the movie. Not the best way to learn you're grounded. 😂
Fresh perspectives!
@OH-te6wrAnd of course the 5th grade youtube plane spotter club is there to capture the spectacle of rescue crews putting out the brake fire. 🔥🚒🏫🎦
Especially when the 5th grade plane spotter club is there to capture the spectacle of ARFF putting out your brake fire. 🔥🚒📹🫣 Maybe it would be best to stay home with a "stomach ache" on Monday morning. 🤣 @OH-te6wr
I must say: I can ONLY follow most of that talk 'cause I've watched a lot of 74 gear videos where Kelsey explained a lot ATC vs pilot happenings.
Thanks for sharing!
Great to hear!
“… and you have a GREAT DAY.” 😂😂😂
"Yeah you do the same" -- these pilots learned nothing. At least not before they had the call.
The KLM air crew member has a high emotional IQ. We should all strive to be as calm as this guy.
Have a _GREAT_ day
Yeah VENGEANCE!
That was so wonderful, bet the controller enjoyed saying that a lot. 🤣
07:42 "Have a _great_ day" 🔥🔥🔥
For cargo its not just weight thats an issue it could also be material, the dont want to load certain cargo in certain positions on the plane, or could be discovered that someone mislabeled somethign hazardous as non hazardous and that cargo now needs to be checked to ensure its loaded correctly. Both of those have been the cause of incidents.
As a former Loadmaster I fully agree.
Wild that you'd even think about saying that when everything in the cockpit is recorded.
Yes, but the tapes are only pulled if there is an incident. Otherwise they are over written when the aircraft makes its next flight.
@@ImpendingJoker Ooh, I didn't realize they were overwritten every flight. But still, if there is an incident that would still be part of the recording. You never know what can happen.
They only record the last x minutes and are constant recorded over. They "only" hold something between 30-240 mins of recordings. That is also why whenever there has been an incident and they land, that the pilots need to remember to cut the circuit breaker to the recorder, to prevent it from being recorded over.
@@Lungomono Happy to learn. Thanks!
@@Unmei_KaI think every 30 minutes they are written over. I think they want to increase that time though.
I was a railroader in the '00s, and I can tell you that conversation in the cab often became a union meeting/B*tch and moan session about supervision and management, as well as the idiot dispatcher of the moment. I feel for the current guys who are going to have to work with recorded in-cab conversations and inward facing cameras now. The concept of a "sterile" cockpit or cab would be an alien idea to most railroaders.
Explaining the company cancellation. My speculation. Before every commercial flight, the plane load must be calculated and the cargo securred. Essentially, the plane has to be balanced in certain way when taking off and flying. Usually, a flight is not stopped because something was delivered late to cargo or the cargo is unpaid. This is a cargo plane so my best guess is that the equivalent of a loadmaster reviewed the numbers and was unsatisfied.
Sometimes it can be funny. I am waiting in Honolulu on the tarmac for a hop to one of the islands. The pilot is late. People jump in the plane. I say everyone is going to be deplaned and weighed and seated based on weight. One overweight lady was greatly offended. Yep. They all got off!
Good job! Can’t stand corner cutters when it comes to flight safety.
More likely the dispatcher. That is the person that can cancel clearances. This happens all too frequently when load planners deliver large weight changes after pushback. I had to stop a 747 just as he was turning on to the runway once and had to send others back to the gate almost monthly for load issues.
Baltimore/Potomac is the worst? I got news for him, there are waaaaay worse large airport ATC facilities in this country than that….
Hotkeyed talking smack about ATC while in the air! Dude, I’d wait until I’m on the ground! 😬
Yeah but broadcasting that mistakenly ? What are the odds?
@@Flight_FollowerWAS it a pilot deviation though? Yes call us but what deviation. Thanks
@@lesliesmith719 perhaps not listening to guard frequency via which the ATC was trying to alternately contact them
I think not so much a pilot deviation as a necessary precaution to make sure aviation stays safe. I mean, if you pricipally distrust ATC at an airport, that for sure won't help you follow their instructions to get your plane safely on the ground when push comes to shove.
And I expect there'll also be a subtle "we heard some things that your chief pilot will want to hear".
Have a great day 💀😏
Someone forgot to turn the iron off again! I hate it when that happens. Waste of time.
Oooh Eagle. Telling it like it is, and getting in trouble for it 😂
Good call, the pilots need to make sure the CG is in an acceptable range.
But for cargo, they're relying on accurate numbers from others.
Why are the radios still so bad in the 21st century? You'd think they'd be digital by now. Do you get a special course to understand voices barely differentiable from static when becoming a pilot? Because I barely if at all understood most of these, let alone those even marked as unintelligible in the subtitles.
I think most ATC recordings we have on RUclips are not the original ones (like they are recorded on not-fly approved radio or custom equipment, etc.), neither near the quality of audio these people hear when talking to each other.
These are bootleg recordings, it’s not what they actually sound like
This is people doing HAM radio picking up the transmissions
Fair enough, but the only reason they can pick them up "low quality", is because they are fundamentally the same old school analogue radios, even if the quality with a proper equipment would be better than this most of the time, I would also agree, or hope so anyway.
If they were digital, a recording like that, if not encrypted or something like that, would largely be as crisp as the microphones pick it up. Since the information density isn't increasing, you could make the encoding more than redundant enough that the effective range would likely be increased if anything, and probably even add some encoded data alongside it on top, to be automatically fed to computers.
It is incredibly dificult to upgrade such system in critical and large infrastructure.
The problem is unless you manage to upgrade the system at least nation wide if not world wide, you end up with both planes and airports having to support both systems.
And upgrading at the scale of country is not easy as you will have to upgrade all the little private planes, aerodromes...
And current AM radios are probably concidered good enough so the insentive to have to put money into a onther system is not their.
We are only seeing what is being heard but AM might have advantages over even digital. AM certainly has more range than FM which has bettr audio for example.
Unless a major policy maker like the US or Europe impose the use of digital, it wont happen and its not clear if that is even desirable.
ALWAYS look for the TX (or whatever your avionics show for when transmitting) before saying something that could get you a phone number! 🤣
Thanks!
Company called to cancel take off but the guy wants to circle around and still take off ??
Yes. It's not a center of gravity issue here, rather incorrect calculation of the performance of the aircraft that needs to be inserted all over again. It was mentioned they did take off half an hour later without displacing anything. In any other case they would be instructed to taxi back to the cargo ramp, from the Ground station.
KLM can’t contact the flight directly? It’s a heavy. No satellite comm? The SFO controller went above what’s expected to facilitate the klm’s departure. 👍
They can, they have company communications on the plane however these are text based and usually very low priority for pilots when it comes to operations. Without the ATC cancelling they probably would have long been in the air before they reviewed any company communications.
@@cyclobs2 good point. Probably inhibited in sterile.
@@cyclobs2 Exactly. Cockpit crews are not paying much attention to inbound messages while they're about to line up (especially at SFO, given that they are busy sweating a departure runway change).
ACARS and CPDLC is used by the companies to communicate with the pilots directly.
A revoked takeoff clearance, rather than a rejected takeoff, it seems to me.
Sounds like they were already rolling, so definitely rejected.
@FlightFollower - you guys have good videos, but can you trim it up so we only hear the incident aircraft and don’t have to listen to all the other planes and everything else going on? It would really shorten the videos!
We already edited out more than 60%.. still..thanks for the input..
WELL NOTED!
That would not reflect real life...without context.
Talks about the "worst controllers in the country" but cannot use proper radio phraseology IAW AIM 4-2.
Rejected takeoff? Really? 😡
So.. Tower calls the plane - by radio - to tell them their radio is still on transmit? They must believe that plane has a very special radio set... able to hear the tower on the frequency they themselves are blocking by transmitting on it. 😮
Yes, they do have a special radio, called "Guard receiver"
@Nikolas_A That's clever, but normally that would be desensitised by the own transmission and unable to receive either. Ask anyone who tried to work 'duplex' with normal radios.
@@F.E.TermanNot true. Two independent VHF simplex radios sitting side-by-side tuned to different frequencies can be simultaneously used. You can be transmitting on one while listening to another.
@@Nikolas_AThe "guard" freq is monitored on a normal radio. Nothing at all 'special' about it... Often times there are only two radios (if that many) and "Guard" (121.5) is monitored "when able" by the aircrew. Typically in the terminal environment, the second radio is already loaded with your third frequency down the line (with current and next freqs being loaded into the primary radio) so that switching frequencies when assigned is as simple as rotating the "XMIT Select" knob.
@@I_know_you_are_right_however The 121.5 receiver is not ideal. It is very insensitive on other channels, but the stuck transmitter is _very_ close. Likewise, the stuck transmitter is not ideal. It emits very little on other frequencies, but the 121.5 receiver is _very_ close.
If you are interested, google 'spectral purity receiver', 'vhf repeater design' (a repeater must receive and transmit simultaneously, and so ends up having to use very sharp and expensive external filters and can work on only one specific frequency pair), et cetera.
Of course in case of a stuck mike, the tower could call the _other_ planes on 121.5 to put them on a new channel, if necessary. That's what we do in a case like that.
Another reason to know that in the video the tower was not using 121.5 is that in that case, we would have heard the two transmissions at the same time, because the video maker would have used two receivers. (Not just one, because there is no way he could have known when and how long to switch frequencies).
So KLM dispatch are unable to communicate with their own flight deck ? Weird !
Why don’t they use over and out so they don’t walk over each other?
Really…
It doesn’t matter because far too many pilots doesn’t listen before they key anyway. I can confirm this, I am a retired controller from Chicago, and this is a big problem. I cannot tell you how many times I have issued a clearance to a pilot only to have his read back stepped on by someone who got a freq change, flipped the switch and called on without listening.
@@efoxxok7478Capt Over, over. And don’t call me Shirley!
Over and Out isn't good radio phraseology anyway. You would say Over OR Out, but not both
@@efoxxok7478 still, in response to Agent1996, you can be with a controller for several minutes, told to report over a weigh point, you are listening, you wait for the break in his instructions to others, then you call to report over and at the end you realize you stepped on him. Cannot tell you have many times this happens and it is NOT from getting a frequency change and is NOT from lack of listening; let alone how many times it happens when other pilots step on each other in Class C trying to get clearance in a busy zone. There needs to be new technology that prevents stepping on.
That only works when there are just two people on frequency. All aviation RT operators know when a transmission has ended, over and out are redundant in standard aviation phraseology.
ok.. bottom line,, I have seen so many situations,, a 747 being 2k kilos of is nothing, sometimes even a 727 being 2k kilos off is nothing, most loadmasters do not understand their jobs..I await the shitstorm..
Boeing CEO :... naaaa its fine, the load will need 22 degree on the elevator and it can actually do 25 .... So ... autopilot will take care of them, probably a short route and they are carrying extra fuel.
KLM loading supervisors at SFO made a goof, wasting time & fuel. Oops.
ATC passive aggressive, can't take criticism lol
That was not criticism. He said they just as soon kill all of us (drive us into the ground).
No way can flying for an airline be actually enjoyable any longer.
Collect up all the one off situations where behavior ended in disaster then make a regulation or policy on it. Hell you might as well send it all to computers and put no one in the cockpit. Lol.. Airline pilot what a wonderful life.. Not...
They get paid a stupid amount of money for a very small amount of work. Especially with pilots unions. The recent delta pilots contract is somthing you would (never) see as a normal employee at any company. Never, ever feel bad for a pilot at a major airline.
but mainline pay is still pretty good
Complaining about the system that has given us fifteen years without a crash on a large US airline is... A choice...
@@amg2022 spoken like a truly uninformed individual
@@MrWaltjam spent my whole life around it and in it. Sorry not sorry. Keep working your way through the regionals and then it’s goofy cash unless you’re trash.