The whole reason of the whole scenario of getting Bill to the Doctor and eventually getting her to shoot the Doctor was to test if Bill was under the control of the Monks. Couple of episodes of prior, the Monks had ran a significant number of simulations, which allowed them to collect information on the planet, including the Doctor. So the Monks would have knowledge of the Doctor's ability as a Time Lord to regenerate. I think this is why the Doctor faked regenerating.
The fake out regeneration also doesn't make any sense because Bill has never seen a regeneration (or had it explained to her), so him shooting orange light from his arms means nothing to her.
@@wendyheatherwood Yup - I think that scene was in there just for the trailer. Much like Clara's "Clara Oswald does not exist!" scene with the Cyberman. Trailer fodder with no significance or consequences. It would have been more interesting if Bill had injured him enough to somehow START him regenerating, and that kept popping up briefly through the remaining stories of the season before the (yawn) Cybermen finale.
I wonder if they did it to set up the regen tease at the start of WEAT, as season 10 is supposed to be a fresh start for new people to jump on maybe they did it to show people what regen looks like
Yeah, it drops an octane but the rest is pretty great. Love the fake regeneration and Missy scenes. Also, Hi Crispy! Loved your weeping angel video today!
Tbh I like the ending, I think the point of Bill giving her memories being the reason real history comes back is because it's her own personality memories that are real, it's a bit cheesy though. The monk trilogy is my favourite multi-parter of new who with World Enough and Time and the Doctor Falls being my favourite, it's a shame the monk trilogy ending up being as rushed as it was, I feel like it should have been a 4 parter instead.
My "favorite" part of this one is that, just like Clara pretending to be the Doctor in the Series 8 finale, the whole fake regeneration thing so clearly only exists so it could be misleadingly put in the trailer and freak people out.
Exactly. What I thought was, would Bill even know what regeneration was, much less what it looked like. If the Doctor wanted to fake being fatally wounded then he could have just pretended to be dead; how did faking a regeneration (which to Bill would’ve just looked like a weird meaningless light show) add to it?
@@stevetayler9518 we don’t know what conversations they had off screen but going by just the show I think that’s never brought up. So yeah, the regeneration was just for the audience.
Frankly, in retrospect, I kinda wish the regeneration *had* been real, if only for two reasons: 1) I miss the days when continuing companions got a complete story or two with a new (to them) Doctor before moving on as a norm, rather than an exception, and 2) It would have made sense for the Doctor's blindness to be cured by regeneration, rather than Bill's bargaining with the Monks at the end of "Pyramid"; and we could still have relieved a sighted actor from acting blind. As for #1, I would have *preferred* that Bill stick around for a story or two with Jodie Whitaker, instead of getting -killed off- running away with Pilot!Heather. But you know...
He faked a regeneration purely for the audience's sake. If Bill had shot him and he'd just keeled over, it is conceivable that she would think he was dead, but we the audience wouldn't because he's not regenerating. It was effectively a move purely for the audiences benefit, which is basically the weakest kind of script writing.
Yes the monks lay it on thick. history, propaganda and violence. It's made CLEAR what kind of powers theyre wieldning, and then a few minutes later we're on the boat and the doctor is like " Naaaa, I just talked to the guys in this boat, theyre fine now..." After all that build up?!!
You know I was just thinking that same thing before I scrolled down. It feels like they tried to squeeze an entire series arc into three episodes. Or, rather, they tried to squeeze all but two episodes-worth of a series arc into one episode, because they had more things they wanted the season to do. If they had shaken up the formula and made the Monks' arc something more like the Trial of a Timelord or the Key to Time (there aren't really any modern examples to give), this could've been really something.
@@SplotchTheCatThing yeah exactly. I like key and trial. I get why others don't and they have their weaker moments but that would have been an awesome way to call back to the original series with serials. I think it's time that doctor who should shake things up again but not with a regeneration and a younger cast with a new showrunner.
It's that or hand maids tale level of opression that they just solved in less than 40 minutes with the help of headphones... Didnt think that would be all that was needed after Bill's first monlogue in the episode...
Bill shooting the Doctor doesn't make sense for the Doctor either, why would he want her to shoot people?! I'm not saying he's above violence but he's usually yelling at people who's first instinct is to shoot That scene just exists for trailers
They didn't even need that though, 'cause they had an actual not-fakeout regeneration scene to start off World Enough and Time. That just means the decision to put another one here for the trailers is even more stupid.
@@SplotchTheCatThing I always thought this was supposed to be some kind of clunky foreshadowing for World Enough and Time. The regeneration, Bills anger at the doctor, the master. Most of the things in the season foreshadow something else but this definitely didnt work.
As dumb as this episode is, there is a moment of brilliance I cannot hate. Where the Doctor and Bill have just spoken to Missy and walk away. This is Gallifrey plays in all its splendour and you just can’t not think about the Doctor/Missy-Master relationship in its totality. I could be reading too much into it, but i believe it is the product of all 10 seasons of Murray Golds mastery of motifs.
"Evil Missy in the vault playing a piano" felt too much like "Evil Eurus Holmes in the prison playing a viola." And Missy's sudden tears at the end of this one were completely out of nowhere! One minute she's laughing about pushing a girl into a volcano, and the next minute she's weeping about not knowing the names of the people she'd killed, or somesuch twaddle.
Something that was bugging me was how people actually died during the Monk's reign. And they died because they were arrested by other people. Their memories were altered, yes, but they still chose to drag their fellow humans to their death. There were no consequences for that, which bugs me something fierce. EDIT: Especially since that the episode ends with Missy feeling guilt over all the people she's killed! It feels like a missed opportunity to show the Memory Police or whatever suddenly realizing that they've killed thousands of innocent people, and thinking "Oh god, what have I done?" THEY SHOULD HAVE EXPLORED THE CONSEQUENCES!
Final scene with Missy is great though. I really like this set up. It kinda takes the idea of the Doctor keeping the Master prisoner from Last of the Timelords but explores what it would be like. It also kinda reminds me of the Shalka Master.
What really pissing me off is the good opening, and also Nardole building up how hard its going to be to resuce the doctor, they go on and on about how hard its going to be how dangerous. Really buildning suspense.... Everyone's against them, they can get caught at any time, and that could mean death or worse. And then they finally make it and almost get caught and make it in. And first the doctor is like "Bill go home" and then "naww I was faking, and by the way this ship isnt dangerous at all, I converted them all, and we can all just go home now" Like "what?!" Way to throw a good premise out the window. Its not even the fakeout to Bill to me, its the fact that the ship isnt even dangerous and he could have left at any time but he was just waiting for Bill to come......?! And then we dont even see them leave the ship, and then they're just home again. All that setup on how dangerous the whole thing was gonna be and for what?! Why would you lessen the danger like that, just on the boat, when is less danger in an tight and claustrophobic episode like this a good thing. Naw the doctor talked to them for a bit and all the people on the boat are good guys again now... I swear I could go on and on. Think if something like that would happen after the great intro in the first episode of "Hand maids tale" cause yeah Bill's opening monologue has similarities...And then they just throw it out and later inte episode all we need is headphones and we can move freely.
As with so many problematic New Who stories, my guess is that the reason the changes in tone are too rapid and there are explanations we aren't given, is because 45 minutes is just not enough time per episode, and important stuff ends up on the cutting room floor. I got the impression the monks just wanted to be loved, although this is only hinted at. My main dangling question at the end was why, if she is the lynchpin of their domination over the planet, they didn't keep closer tabs on Bill.
I feel this 3 (arguably 4) parter is the most underrated multi part story in New Who. Sure, it has its faults, but these episodes really show how great an actor Peter Capaldi is as The Doctor, as well as his chemistry with Bill, Nardole, and Missy.
So, the Doctor is fine with wasting regeneration energy to add to a prank, but he couldn't use it to cure his own blindness? Unless of course the only way to do that would have been to fully change, in which case his feelings in 'The Doctor Falls' and 'Twice Upon A Time' would explain that.
Honestly my biggest problem has always been the why. They just did it, because. With three episodes to establish something there's really no excuse not to establish that. Bill's mum is also a big let down of a climax
There is some reasoning for Bill's mum; the Monks' propaganda relies on altering memory, but Bill doesn't have any memories of her mum. As we see in The Pilot, she has a projected image of what she _thinks_ her mum would have been like. Which isn't a memory, so can't be altered. It's pure, incorruptible, unwavering love- *and you've zoned out again.* Reason or no reason, it's an awful resolution to the trilogy.
I was booked to fly on a plane for a convention in the USA a couple of years back - got my flight tickets and who was I sitting next to?? Bill's Mom (her real name is Rosie) - I was so excited... I was going to spend the evening at her house before the flight.... a week before and the event was cancelled - I was gutted- but we became good friends - lovely lady. Sorry - carry on :)
My explanation for the fake regeneration is that the Meta Crisis regeneration took a bit less regeneration energy, so he can use the rest of it for things like this or healing River's wrist in the Angels Take Manhattan
While I understand that this 3 parter has a lot of glaring issues and why people dislike it, this episode will always hold a special place in my heart because, although I have been into the modern era since 2013, I introduced a close friend into the show a few months before and we watched season 10 together with another friend as a watch party and it was so much fun. Bill was really good in this story too.
Given how good the rest of Toby Whithouse's work in the Whoniverse is, I was really genuinely shocked at how this episode wasted so much potential and ended things so badly
This was one of the few “love saves the day” stories I didn’t mind. The memory of Bill’s mom works as a counter to propaganda because to Bill she is the one singular unquestionable good. By projecting that image she is projecting a child’s view of their parent, which will always be purer and more powerful than the most fervent state propaganda. I don’t know if it’s necessarily a good payoff to the earlier bits of the story but in a vacuum I like that it wasn’t some generic “aw your love defeated the government” it was “this specific aspect of your love can counter this specific aspect of the government”
The thing is, when the Doctor started regenerating, I didn't think he was gonna change there and then, but I at least thought they were gonna do something interesting with it. Like he starts regenerating and that somehow breaks the mind control or whatever, but he figures out a way to hold it until the finale. Something like that. But nope. Just a completely unnecessary fake out, just for the trailers.
The shooting scene is really dumb, yeah. They somewhat earn Bill's reaction, but not entirely. And if you _are_ pushing a companion that far, you've got to double down on the repercussions. He betrayed her, she betrayed him. Test or no test, they shattered their dynamic and that has to have consequences. From here on out, this should have been an entirely different Bill. But nah, Toby couldn't be bothered.
I swear I never really knew why the monk trilogy was so widely disliked until watching these reviews, because I remember thinking this trilogy was one of the highlights of this series.
Might have worked if it was instead The Silence forced to remind people they were in charge thus playing off against their amnesia ability, so only a total rewrite needed then. Agree the denouement is too confusing; I still find it near impossible to remember how the mind control both works and is destroyed. And we didn't get much pay off from overthrowing the evil overlords it just sort of stops. Pity really, Part 1 was quite good.
Totally agree. The two first episodes aswell as the first 20 minutes of this episode were brilliant. But the story should've been written so the doctor was captured by the Monk's, about how Bill and Nardole managed to set him free (maybee with some help from Missy) and that the Doctor then saves the day. Bill's mother shouldn't be in this episode, that was a big mistake, I think.
They actually had a really good motivation for the monks just sitting there, but they never used it. The monks can create incredibly detailed and accurate simulations of reality. Let's say they ran some of those simulations at an accelerated rate. What would they see? Well, going by what other episodes have shown, a human empire that spans galaxies, practices slavery and is willing to wipe out whole star systems to win wars. If that empire posed a threat to your civilisation what would you be willing to do to make sure it would never exist?
The ideas in this episode are great but the tone from about the midpoint isn't great, becomes a kinda fun story for children I guess but it should've stuck with the deeper tone imo
Yh i agree it starts so well and very accurate id say but it just tries to do too much all at once and its too crowded. I can buy bill pulling a gun on the doctor but i could never see her pulling the trigger its just not her. With missy the reveal could of happened in this episode but her trying to be good could of been saved for the next episode would of fit a bit better there
I agree completely. The starting bit was really interesting and refreshing and I was really interested to see where it was gonna go and it sort of went in really boring directions. 'Tis such a shame. I really wish this was better and more logical. And I really can't fathom how the brilliant set-up of Extremis is followed up by _this mess._ Oh well...
I think that shooting him would be a reasonable strategy. His personality does change a bit with regeneration. It would be a desperate move but it would at least give you a chance to shake things up and possibly change his alliance.
Weirdly, of the three Monk stories, this was the only one I loved (so, I guess I'm backward from everyone). I've always loved a good dystopian story, though, and also I thought it was a good story for Bill, so there's that. :)
Alas, this is the only episode of Series 10 I dislike. It has a nice, strong opening, then that scene with the doctor just goes so far off the rails. Then we get the climax that just takes me out entirely. And it’s a shame, because there’s plenty of stuff I like in this episode: the first twenty minutes, the directing, the acting, the sound. But what hurts most is the fact that this is the end of a three part story. If this were a stand alone episode, I might even be okay with it.
Them not sticking the landing on this one was sadly detrimental to the series as a whole. :( Which is such a shame! I think s10 is honestly one of the best of nuwho: most of the episodes are solid, with this being one of the few exceptions; the undercurrent of plot is nice throughout the series; and it's got one of my favourite finales since RTD era. However then you get this whole middle stretch with the Monk trilogy. Three episodes doesn't sound like a LOT, but it's basically a third of the entire series - AND it's when the show really hits the ground running (since many of the other episodes are moreso standalones). To spend all that time building to... This? Blech. Such a waste of momentum and a waste of the two really good episodes that preceded it, but it's as you said- like with GOT, when you can't close in on a story well, the whole thing does just suffer. Especially with this, since a lot of it was building up TO this and to just be met with this anticlimax... There's simply not good payoff, so this arc as a whole just feels unsatisfying as Hell. Which makes a good solid chunk of s10 feel, unjustly, unsatisfying as hell - which is unfair, honestly. :(
Moffat wrote this while he was with his dying mother in the hospital. I usually don't give a complete pass for crappy writing from great writers but I do here
I believe he wrote Pyramid of the End of the World in the hospital next to his mother and was supposed to cowrite this one too which is why Toby Whithouse didn't have a full brief on how it Moffat wanted this episode to be resolved.
Third comment: Thank you for your anger, I needed that... And yes, we have no idea why they needed earth or what they were going to do with it once they had it... Quite a big thing to forget to put in the 3 episodes they had. I dont know, maybe it's like with the dog that catches the car. Once they have it, they dont know what to do with it... Pisses me off even more since we had so few episodes with Bill and atleast sort of two of these arent good and one of them is crap.
See the "how" of the Doctor's fake regeneration isn't so frustrating as the "why". That whole thing was for Bill's benefit. Bill doesn't know that when timelords die they regenerate and she certainly doesn't know what it actually looks like. Which means that in terms of performance, Twelve could have just keeled over and played dead after he was shot and it would have meant the same to Bill. The problem is that there is someone watching who does know that timelords regenerate and what it looks like: us. If Bill shot Twelve and he just keeled over, that would work on her, but the audience would know he's not dead because he's not regenerating. So effectively the Doctor fakes a regeneration for the benefit of the audience, not for any in universe justification because it was totally unneeded for what he was doing. That's when you know a script is sloppy, if characters do things to manipulate the audience which have no reason to have been done in universe. This would have worked better if the Landlord in the haunted house episode had been a timelord and Bill had seen him regenerate which would have made why the Doctor felt the need to fake a regeneration to fool her make sense as she knew that was something to expect.
Bills parts and her struggling and courage, is great, it was a great setup, real autentic , brainwashed doctor, great, i ecen could see him talked out of it. Maybe use missy, but thar scene, why?! They just had to keep the tone od the authentic faschism, even the doctor falling prey. If you have bill team up with missy, nadal wgoever she an win over, even snap the doctor out. Then you can do whatever ending Or just do the whole episide in that fashy tone. They could say oh there have been good attempts, lets take earth.
I'm not a fan of Pyramid at the End of the World either, lost me in all the military stuff; it was just too easy. And predictable. And I thought the payoff was clumsy. This one I liked better than that because of the Missy scene. Every second of that is GREAT. I've actually been known to rewatch that scene in isolation. Then the landing was not executed well and comes off as dumb, especially as any consequences were wiped away like a bad dream after spending two eps building it up. So, we went through all that without learning anything, because no one remembered. (And that wasn't necessary, humanity doesn't retain the lessons of crap we did actually go through) As far as a goal, it was played off as "just how the monks operate" but there wasn't really a reason given for it. They went to a hell of a lot of effort for whatever, which lowers the plausibility that much more.
I actually think the Lie of the Land starts off quite strong, but where it drops the ball is not the writing, but actually the music. The music doesn't match what's going on nor complement the themes or ideas and kept distracting me from the story. It reminded me of my problems with Knock Knock (which were based in the clunky editing) The Lie of the Land was also very rushed at parts (moments needed to be drawn out more, dialogue is too fast, deleted scenes that should've been kept).
Wasn't the monks goal to be worshipped ? I have seen the episodes only once and a long time ago so I might totally be mistaken but I thought their plan was to basically become beloved deities of earth. Which is why they need consent to be given through love in Pyramid so that the earth accepts them as benevolent rulers through their propaganda. I still agree that their intent isn't clear at all in the episodes, and there is no reason why it needs to be earth specifically (other than the fact it's a show aimed at earth people) but it's the explanation that makes the most sense to me given the representation of the monks throughout the three episodes.
They don't explain why the Monks want Earth, they have to just be there because it is based on conspiracies, which is why they also had to change history
They could even make sense with social commentary, with like, dou humans, looking at your history, thsts what you want, how much is alreadyfabricated. Adressing historixal revisionism aka attack on titan is a great reason to choose earth. If they said ghey observed conspiracies going strong, thsts a good reason.
Game of thrones ended weak? damn i think i watched the wrong show....... im not saying i loved GoT final season. definitely thought it was rushed AF. but i didnt go in super hyped expecting greatness the announcement we were getting short changed on episodes had kinda set the stage for well they wont have enough time to wrap it up as well as we want
So from what I can remember (not seen in it an while) they needed a resolution and they wanted to wrap up Bill's mum (which I don't know why, it was just a part of her character, not an arc) but the power of love is not a thematic fit for a story about propaganda. Didn't hate it like the worst episodes of the previous season, I just forgot it real quick. But it is easily Whithouse's weakest script.
Why does anyone want the Earth? Seems like, at best, a fixer upper. There must be something valuable here to justify all the interest by aliens, but dang if I know what it is
This episode is the worst of the 3 parter, I do actually enjoy it a lot. The stuff after the fake regeneration is quite funny. I love Missy so I like her part, I don't like the climax but other than that I enjoy it.
I think the propaganda stuff has been done so much better in worse shows. Legends of Tomorrow has this premise in one episode and I believe it a lot more than I do in this, mainly because I know the characters involved in the story better by the point they do this sort of thing. And maybe it’s because it only just leans on it a little in LoT instead of being as dreary as this story is. If I wanted to feel like a downtrodden member of society I’d go back to work and remind myself I’m only one small cog in a huge clock. And a cog that can easily be replaced if that needed to happen.
I hate the Doctor's "You're Not Like Other Girls/Humans" speech to Bill at the end. Because Humans are idiotic dupes who will forget the trauma of being oppressed and chalk it all up to a university student prank. But Bill is special, so The Doctor is prepared give a damn.
After all that build up and the fascinating, interesting, somewhat original concepts with the Monks in the previous two episodes… this was a major letdown for me. It’s just a generic “Aliens have conquered earth” situation and the resolution is both pat and yet another “love conquers all” thing. It’s trite and disappointing after the excellent last two episodes. I'm glad there are people who enjoyed this and I wish I was the same, but this was a shear disappointment.
I remember when I first saw it I thought it ruined a truly great story, and hadn’t revisited until now. It’s not as bad as I thought it was, still the weakest of the three, but not “ruins a great story” bad.
The mockingjay franchise is a good example of a failed ending ruining the franchise. The first 3 are good, the last dropped the ball, especially in the ending
I took the implication from the fascist layout they’d gone for throughout that the Monks just wanted control. They didn’t care who or what, they just wanted to control it.
I feel like judging the episodes merit on how well it depicts totalitarianism isn’t really helpful. Like, I get it, but also it’s doctor who. Do you think they are going to spend the rest of the series steadily dismantling the influence of a totalitarian regime or are they going to hit the magic sci-fi status quo button with a sonic screwdriver?
@@CouncilofGeeks I get that. But I don’t know how else you could have presented the monks. The idea that they are these intelligent villains. That win through preparation and manipulation is interesting. I think psionic gaslighting is a fitting addition to their arsenal. Moreover I think it would be hard to present a race of monstrous aliens taking over the earth without drawing some totalitarian parallel. It’s not quite the same thing but with the year that wasn’t the master was very totalitarian. So in my mind I can’t see them doing this story much differently without ruining the threat of the monks and or straying very far from Doctor Who as a format. That being said I think the sudden turn into jovial comedy, with the bullets joke and the regeneration fake out, is a bit to sudden. But everyone else down here seems to agree so I guess it goes without saying.
I think it finally clicked for me why they might have chose to have bill shoot the doctor, and it pisses me off. I hope I'm wrong, but I think its bc she's black. Combined with Bill's ending just leaves a bad taste in my mouth now. The main problem with this one is the same problem with the capitalism in space episode.They don't understand the problem more than surface level, or benefit from the system enough to not want to present a realistic solution. As for bills mom, the weird romanticization of parents when foster kids are involved always feels weird, but idk how much of it is my hangups with parents, and just bad stereotypes. Oh and your comment on how bored you got at the end reminded me of something. Having adhd and not being able to focus is more than just being bored. It's like there's a perception filter on the thing. Your eyes just slide right off it like that one on Ashilder's street.
Iirc (it has been a long time since I saw this episode) the Doctor had a throwaway line praising how clever it was (unintendedly) Bill's course of action because of the fakeness of Bill's idea of her mom. I read that scene as the Doctor trying to set historical facts straight and failing to do so because that's the strong point of propaganda. Bill, in contrast, replaces the monk's lies with her own fake idea, but an idea that stems from love and care (just like the Doctor taking the pictures for her) instead. That would at least make a point (that you can't beat fascism with neutral facts or objectivity, but must take a stand against it?). But maybe it's because Bill was the link, dunno
"How stupid do you think I am?" Is slowly becoming my favourite doctor who quote of all time :D
Instablaster
Why was he even pretending he is regenerating? Bill didn't know he can do it.
It's the only kind of dying he has experience going through.
@@Nulono But he's had plenty of experience watching other people die.
The whole reason of the whole scenario of getting Bill to the Doctor and eventually getting her to shoot the Doctor was to test if Bill was under the control of the Monks. Couple of episodes of prior, the Monks had ran a significant number of simulations, which allowed them to collect information on the planet, including the Doctor. So the Monks would have knowledge of the Doctor's ability as a Time Lord to regenerate. I think this is why the Doctor faked regenerating.
The fake out regeneration also doesn't make any sense because Bill has never seen a regeneration (or had it explained to her), so him shooting orange light from his arms means nothing to her.
Yeah, the only person there who would know what was happening is Nardole he was in on it.
It's entirely for the audience.
@@wendyheatherwood Yup - I think that scene was in there just for the trailer. Much like Clara's "Clara Oswald does not exist!" scene with the Cyberman. Trailer fodder with no significance or consequences. It would have been more interesting if Bill had injured him enough to somehow START him regenerating, and that kept popping up briefly through the remaining stories of the season before the (yawn) Cybermen finale.
It was implied he faked the regeneration for the benefit of any monks who might have been watching.
@@rayzoid ah that would make way more sense thanks!!
I wonder if they did it to set up the regen tease at the start of WEAT, as season 10 is supposed to be a fresh start for new people to jump on maybe they did it to show people what regen looks like
The direction of this episode is SO GOOD. I just feel like the ending falls a bit flat :/
Yeah, it drops an octane but the rest is pretty great. Love the fake regeneration and Missy scenes.
Also, Hi Crispy! Loved your weeping angel video today!
Tbh I like the ending, I think the point of Bill giving her memories being the reason real history comes back is because it's her own personality memories that are real, it's a bit cheesy though. The monk trilogy is my favourite multi-parter of new who with World Enough and Time and the Doctor Falls being my favourite, it's a shame the monk trilogy ending up being as rushed as it was, I feel like it should have been a 4 parter instead.
My "favorite" part of this one is that, just like Clara pretending to be the Doctor in the Series 8 finale, the whole fake regeneration thing so clearly only exists so it could be misleadingly put in the trailer and freak people out.
Exactly.
What I thought was, would Bill even know what regeneration was, much less what it looked like. If the Doctor wanted to fake being fatally wounded then he could have just pretended to be dead; how did faking a regeneration (which to Bill would’ve just looked like a weird meaningless light show) add to it?
@@stevetayler9518 we don’t know what conversations they had off screen but going by just the show I think that’s never brought up. So yeah, the regeneration was just for the audience.
Frankly, in retrospect, I kinda wish the regeneration *had* been real, if only for two reasons: 1) I miss the days when continuing companions got a complete story or two with a new (to them) Doctor before moving on as a norm, rather than an exception, and 2) It would have made sense for the Doctor's blindness to be cured by regeneration, rather than Bill's bargaining with the Monks at the end of "Pyramid"; and we could still have relieved a sighted actor from acting blind.
As for #1, I would have *preferred* that Bill stick around for a story or two with Jodie Whitaker, instead of getting -killed off- running away with Pilot!Heather. But you know...
He faked a regeneration purely for the audience's sake. If Bill had shot him and he'd just keeled over, it is conceivable that she would think he was dead, but we the audience wouldn't because he's not regenerating. It was effectively a move purely for the audiences benefit, which is basically the weakest kind of script writing.
@@CapriUni Murdered by a Companion? That'd certainly be a new way to go!
Yes the monks lay it on thick. history, propaganda and violence. It's made CLEAR what kind of powers theyre wieldning, and then a few minutes later we're on the boat and the doctor is like " Naaaa, I just talked to the guys in this boat, theyre fine now..." After all that build up?!!
I got a lot of George Orwell 1984 vibes from this episode. They should have made the whole monks trilogy an entire season
Yeah it would have solved a lot of problems with the final episode and the concept of the monks was so intriguing
You know I was just thinking that same thing before I scrolled down.
It feels like they tried to squeeze an entire series arc into three episodes. Or, rather, they tried to squeeze all but two episodes-worth of a series arc into one episode, because they had more things they wanted the season to do.
If they had shaken up the formula and made the Monks' arc something more like the Trial of a Timelord or the Key to Time (there aren't really any modern examples to give), this could've been really something.
@@SplotchTheCatThing yeah exactly. I like key and trial. I get why others don't and they have their weaker moments but that would have been an awesome way to call back to the original series with serials. I think it's time that doctor who should shake things up again but not with a regeneration and a younger cast with a new showrunner.
It's that or hand maids tale level of opression that they just solved in less than 40 minutes with the help of headphones... Didnt think that would be all that was needed after Bill's first monlogue in the episode...
7:20 I guess Whithouse didn't know where to get the eggs... eggs... eggs stir...
A big problem with Bill shooting the Doctor is that she had had sacrificed the world to the monks to save him only the episode before.
Bill shooting the Doctor doesn't make sense for the Doctor either, why would he want her to shoot people?! I'm not saying he's above violence but he's usually yelling at people who's first instinct is to shoot
That scene just exists for trailers
They didn't even need that though, 'cause they had an actual not-fakeout regeneration scene to start off World Enough and Time. That just means the decision to put another one here for the trailers is even more stupid.
@@SplotchTheCatThing I always thought this was supposed to be some kind of clunky foreshadowing for World Enough and Time. The regeneration, Bills anger at the doctor, the master. Most of the things in the season foreshadow something else but this definitely didnt work.
As dumb as this episode is, there is a moment of brilliance I cannot hate. Where the Doctor and Bill have just spoken to Missy and walk away. This is Gallifrey plays in all its splendour and you just can’t not think about the Doctor/Missy-Master relationship in its totality. I could be reading too much into it, but i believe it is the product of all 10 seasons of Murray Golds mastery of motifs.
Love how Danny Pink's quote keeps appearing throughout the videos :D
Yeah, that one's a keeper! Too bad it's so often necessary ;-)
"Evil Missy in the vault playing a piano" felt too much like "Evil Eurus Holmes in the prison playing a viola."
And Missy's sudden tears at the end of this one were completely out of nowhere! One minute she's laughing about pushing a girl into a volcano, and the next minute she's weeping about not knowing the names of the people she'd killed, or somesuch twaddle.
The title is a good pun because I didn't even realise it was a pun until you mentioned it
lol, me too.
Something that was bugging me was how people actually died during the Monk's reign. And they died because they were arrested by other people. Their memories were altered, yes, but they still chose to drag their fellow humans to their death. There were no consequences for that, which bugs me something fierce.
EDIT: Especially since that the episode ends with Missy feeling guilt over all the people she's killed! It feels like a missed opportunity to show the Memory Police or whatever suddenly realizing that they've killed thousands of innocent people, and thinking "Oh god, what have I done?" THEY SHOULD HAVE EXPLORED THE CONSEQUENCES!
Final scene with Missy is great though. I really like this set up. It kinda takes the idea of the Doctor keeping the Master prisoner from Last of the Timelords but explores what it would be like. It also kinda reminds me of the Shalka Master.
What really pissing me off is the good opening, and also Nardole building up how hard its going to be to resuce the doctor, they go on and on about how hard its going to be how dangerous. Really buildning suspense.... Everyone's against them, they can get caught at any time, and that could mean death or worse. And then they finally make it and almost get caught and make it in.
And first the doctor is like "Bill go home" and then "naww I was faking, and by the way this ship isnt dangerous at all, I converted them all, and we can all just go home now"
Like "what?!" Way to throw a good premise out the window. Its not even the fakeout to Bill to me, its the fact that the ship isnt even dangerous and he could have left at any time but he was just waiting for Bill to come......?! And then we dont even see them leave the ship, and then they're just home again.
All that setup on how dangerous the whole thing was gonna be and for what?! Why would you lessen the danger like that, just on the boat, when is less danger in an tight and claustrophobic episode like this a good thing.
Naw the doctor talked to them for a bit and all the people on the boat are good guys again now... I swear I could go on and on.
Think if something like that would happen after the great intro in the first episode of "Hand maids tale" cause yeah Bill's opening monologue has similarities...And then they just throw it out and later inte episode all we need is headphones and we can move freely.
As with so many problematic New Who stories, my guess is that the reason the changes in tone are too rapid and there are explanations we aren't given, is because 45 minutes is just not enough time per episode, and important stuff ends up on the cutting room floor. I got the impression the monks just wanted to be loved, although this is only hinted at. My main dangling question at the end was why, if she is the lynchpin of their domination over the planet, they didn't keep closer tabs on Bill.
I feel this 3 (arguably 4) parter is the most underrated multi part story in New Who. Sure, it has its faults, but these episodes really show how great an actor Peter Capaldi is as The Doctor, as well as his chemistry with Bill, Nardole, and Missy.
So, the Doctor is fine with wasting regeneration energy to add to a prank, but he couldn't use it to cure his own blindness? Unless of course the only way to do that would have been to fully change, in which case his feelings in 'The Doctor Falls' and 'Twice Upon A Time' would explain that.
Well you’re assuming it’s genuine regeneration energy and he isn’t faking the effect.
@@CouncilofGeeks Good point. I'm still using my theory regarding the whole blindness thing though.
I really like Lie of the Land. It's great all the way to the ending. The fake regeneration and Missy scenes are two of the best scenes in the season.
Honestly my biggest problem has always been the why. They just did it, because. With three episodes to establish something there's really no excuse not to establish that.
Bill's mum is also a big let down of a climax
Shoes. They wanted Earth for shoes. I mean, just look at their fashion sense. They really needed some good shoes.
Point, Thanks for finally answering that question. Their sandals really were quite awful.
There is some reasoning for Bill's mum; the Monks' propaganda relies on altering memory, but Bill doesn't have any memories of her mum. As we see in The Pilot, she has a projected image of what she _thinks_ her mum would have been like. Which isn't a memory, so can't be altered. It's pure, incorruptible, unwavering love- *and you've zoned out again.*
Reason or no reason, it's an awful resolution to the trilogy.
I actually forgot this was a love-conquers-all episode. Like you, I think I pretty much checked out before the conclusion too.
I was booked to fly on a plane for a convention in the USA a couple of years back - got my flight tickets and who was I sitting next to?? Bill's Mom (her real name is Rosie) - I was so excited... I was going to spend the evening at her house before the flight.... a week before and the event was cancelled - I was gutted- but we became good friends - lovely lady.
Sorry - carry on :)
My explanation for the fake regeneration is that the Meta Crisis regeneration took a bit less regeneration energy, so he can use the rest of it for things like this or healing River's wrist in the Angels Take Manhattan
Mine's always been that he's burning off the last of the regeneration that was stolen by Davros in The Witch's Familiar.
While I understand that this 3 parter has a lot of glaring issues and why people dislike it, this episode will always hold a special place in my heart because, although I have been into the modern era since 2013, I introduced a close friend into the show a few months before and we watched season 10 together with another friend as a watch party and it was so much fun.
Bill was really good in this story too.
"the lie of the land" brought to you by Huon Lewis and the Ood?
I feel like it would’ve been better if the Doctor actually sided with the Monks, and Bill and Nardole had to use Missy to stop him
Given how good the rest of Toby Whithouse's work in the Whoniverse is, I was really genuinely shocked at how this episode wasted so much potential and ended things so badly
This was one of the few “love saves the day” stories I didn’t mind. The memory of Bill’s mom works as a counter to propaganda because to Bill she is the one singular unquestionable good. By projecting that image she is projecting a child’s view of their parent, which will always be purer and more powerful than the most fervent state propaganda.
I don’t know if it’s necessarily a good payoff to the earlier bits of the story but in a vacuum I like that it wasn’t some generic “aw your love defeated the government” it was “this specific aspect of your love can counter this specific aspect of the government”
The thing is, when the Doctor started regenerating, I didn't think he was gonna change there and then, but I at least thought they were gonna do something interesting with it. Like he starts regenerating and that somehow breaks the mind control or whatever, but he figures out a way to hold it until the finale. Something like that. But nope. Just a completely unnecessary fake out, just for the trailers.
The shooting scene is really dumb, yeah. They somewhat earn Bill's reaction, but not entirely. And if you _are_ pushing a companion that far, you've got to double down on the repercussions.
He betrayed her, she betrayed him. Test or no test, they shattered their dynamic and that has to have consequences. From here on out, this should have been an entirely different Bill. But nah, Toby couldn't be bothered.
I swear I never really knew why the monk trilogy was so widely disliked until watching these reviews, because I remember thinking this trilogy was one of the highlights of this series.
I... Didn't know it was a pun until you pointed it out...
Might have worked if it was instead The Silence forced to remind people they were in charge thus playing off against their amnesia ability, so only a total rewrite needed then. Agree the denouement is too confusing; I still find it near impossible to remember how the mind control both works and is destroyed. And we didn't get much pay off from overthrowing the evil overlords it just sort of stops. Pity really, Part 1 was quite good.
Just watched this earlier, it's GREAT! I don't understand why people don't like it
I enjoy it overall, although it doesn't quite live up to the promise of Extremis and Pyramid.
I don’t either! I love this episode
Totally agree. The two first episodes aswell as the first 20 minutes of this episode were brilliant. But the story should've been written so the doctor was captured by the Monk's, about how Bill and Nardole managed to set him free (maybee with some help from Missy) and that the Doctor then saves the day. Bill's mother shouldn't be in this episode, that was a big mistake, I think.
They actually had a really good motivation for the monks just sitting there, but they never used it.
The monks can create incredibly detailed and accurate simulations of reality. Let's say they ran some of those simulations at an accelerated rate. What would they see?
Well, going by what other episodes have shown, a human empire that spans galaxies, practices slavery and is willing to wipe out whole star systems to win wars.
If that empire posed a threat to your civilisation what would you be willing to do to make sure it would never exist?
I really loved the episode, but I understand why others don't.
The ideas in this episode are great but the tone from about the midpoint isn't great, becomes a kinda fun story for children I guess but it should've stuck with the deeper tone imo
Yh i agree it starts so well and very accurate id say but it just tries to do too much all at once and its too crowded. I can buy bill pulling a gun on the doctor but i could never see her pulling the trigger its just not her.
With missy the reveal could of happened in this episode but her trying to be good could of been saved for the next episode would of fit a bit better there
Theres also references to nightmare in silver, blink, into the dalek, the pilot and idiots lantern in this episode which i don't remember like at all
Love wins the day is such a trope. Not even in general but in Moffats time as show runner. Ruins the trilogy for me.
Yes, he does it a lot - plus the imagery of "a single tear" (Amy, Bill - not sure if Clara ever cried "a single tear", though).
I agree completely. The starting bit was really interesting and refreshing and I was really interested to see where it was gonna go and it sort of went in really boring directions. 'Tis such a shame. I really wish this was better and more logical. And I really can't fathom how the brilliant set-up of Extremis is followed up by _this mess._ Oh well...
I think that shooting him would be a reasonable strategy. His personality does change a bit with regeneration. It would be a desperate move but it would at least give you a chance to shake things up and possibly change his alliance.
Weirdly, of the three Monk stories, this was the only one I loved (so, I guess I'm backward from everyone). I've always loved a good dystopian story, though, and also I thought it was a good story for Bill, so there's that. :)
Tbf Doctor Who, more often or not, drops the ball on multi episode stories.
Having colonialism and slavery striked from British education this year certainly makes this episode hit harder.
Alas, this is the only episode of Series 10 I dislike. It has a nice, strong opening, then that scene with the doctor just goes so far off the rails. Then we get the climax that just takes me out entirely. And it’s a shame, because there’s plenty of stuff I like in this episode: the first twenty minutes, the directing, the acting, the sound. But what hurts most is the fact that this is the end of a three part story. If this were a stand alone episode, I might even be okay with it.
I couldn't agree more with what you just said👍
Them not sticking the landing on this one was sadly detrimental to the series as a whole. :( Which is such a shame! I think s10 is honestly one of the best of nuwho: most of the episodes are solid, with this being one of the few exceptions; the undercurrent of plot is nice throughout the series; and it's got one of my favourite finales since RTD era.
However then you get this whole middle stretch with the Monk trilogy. Three episodes doesn't sound like a LOT, but it's basically a third of the entire series - AND it's when the show really hits the ground running (since many of the other episodes are moreso standalones). To spend all that time building to... This? Blech. Such a waste of momentum and a waste of the two really good episodes that preceded it, but it's as you said- like with GOT, when you can't close in on a story well, the whole thing does just suffer. Especially with this, since a lot of it was building up TO this and to just be met with this anticlimax... There's simply not good payoff, so this arc as a whole just feels unsatisfying as Hell. Which makes a good solid chunk of s10 feel, unjustly, unsatisfying as hell - which is unfair, honestly. :(
Lie of land land lie land land lies about lands of lie lands
Moffat wrote this while he was with his dying mother in the hospital. I usually don't give a complete pass for crappy writing from great writers but I do here
Can u show the source? B cause this sounds wholesome in a way
I believe he wrote Pyramid of the End of the World in the hospital next to his mother and was supposed to cowrite this one too which is why Toby Whithouse didn't have a full brief on how it Moffat wanted this episode to be resolved.
Third comment: Thank you for your anger, I needed that... And yes, we have no idea why they needed earth or what they were going to do with it once they had it...
Quite a big thing to forget to put in the 3 episodes they had. I dont know, maybe it's like with the dog that catches the car. Once they have it, they dont know what to do with it... Pisses me off even more since we had so few episodes with Bill and atleast sort of two of these arent good and one of them is crap.
Game of Thrones? Didn't we learn that a bad ending can cause a show people were into to lose all enthusiasm for the entirety of the thing with Lost?
See the "how" of the Doctor's fake regeneration isn't so frustrating as the "why". That whole thing was for Bill's benefit. Bill doesn't know that when timelords die they regenerate and she certainly doesn't know what it actually looks like. Which means that in terms of performance, Twelve could have just keeled over and played dead after he was shot and it would have meant the same to Bill.
The problem is that there is someone watching who does know that timelords regenerate and what it looks like: us. If Bill shot Twelve and he just keeled over, that would work on her, but the audience would know he's not dead because he's not regenerating. So effectively the Doctor fakes a regeneration for the benefit of the audience, not for any in universe justification because it was totally unneeded for what he was doing. That's when you know a script is sloppy, if characters do things to manipulate the audience which have no reason to have been done in universe.
This would have worked better if the Landlord in the haunted house episode had been a timelord and Bill had seen him regenerate which would have made why the Doctor felt the need to fake a regeneration to fool her make sense as she knew that was something to expect.
Bills parts and her struggling and courage, is great, it was a great setup, real autentic , brainwashed doctor, great, i ecen could see him talked out of it. Maybe use missy, but thar scene, why?! They just had to keep the tone od the authentic faschism, even the doctor falling prey.
If you have bill team up with missy, nadal wgoever she an win over, even snap the doctor out. Then you can do whatever ending
Or just do the whole episide in that fashy tone. They could say oh there have been good attempts, lets take earth.
I'm not a fan of Pyramid at the End of the World either, lost me in all the military stuff; it was just too easy. And predictable. And I thought the payoff was clumsy. This one I liked better than that because of the Missy scene. Every second of that is GREAT. I've actually been known to rewatch that scene in isolation. Then the landing was not executed well and comes off as dumb, especially as any consequences were wiped away like a bad dream after spending two eps building it up. So, we went through all that without learning anything, because no one remembered. (And that wasn't necessary, humanity doesn't retain the lessons of crap we did actually go through) As far as a goal, it was played off as "just how the monks operate" but there wasn't really a reason given for it. They went to a hell of a lot of effort for whatever, which lowers the plausibility that much more.
I actually think the Lie of the Land starts off quite strong, but where it drops the ball is not the writing, but actually the music. The music doesn't match what's going on nor complement the themes or ideas and kept distracting me from the story. It reminded me of my problems with Knock Knock (which were based in the clunky editing) The Lie of the Land was also very rushed at parts (moments needed to be drawn out more, dialogue is too fast, deleted scenes that should've been kept).
Wasn't the monks goal to be worshipped ? I have seen the episodes only once and a long time ago so I might totally be mistaken but I thought their plan was to basically become beloved deities of earth. Which is why they need consent to be given through love in Pyramid so that the earth accepts them as benevolent rulers through their propaganda.
I still agree that their intent isn't clear at all in the episodes, and there is no reason why it needs to be earth specifically (other than the fact it's a show aimed at earth people) but it's the explanation that makes the most sense to me given the representation of the monks throughout the three episodes.
They don't explain why the Monks want Earth, they have to just be there because it is based on conspiracies, which is why they also had to change history
They could even make sense with social commentary, with like, dou humans, looking at your history, thsts what you want, how much is alreadyfabricated. Adressing historixal revisionism aka attack on titan is a great reason to choose earth.
If they said ghey observed conspiracies going strong, thsts a good reason.
Right up to the end of these episode, I got major xcom vibes someone on the dw staff must have played a lot if xcom 2
Game of thrones ended weak? damn i think i watched the wrong show....... im not saying i loved GoT final season. definitely thought it was rushed AF. but i didnt go in super hyped expecting greatness the announcement we were getting short changed on episodes had kinda set the stage for well they wont have enough time to wrap it up as well as we want
It's not perfect, love does solve all!
But yeah I enjoyed it still. I don't get the hate.. Not the best but no where near bad.
So from what I can remember (not seen in it an while) they needed a resolution and they wanted to wrap up Bill's mum (which I don't know why, it was just a part of her character, not an arc) but the power of love is not a thematic fit for a story about propaganda. Didn't hate it like the worst episodes of the previous season, I just forgot it real quick. But it is easily Whithouse's weakest script.
Why does anyone want the Earth? Seems like, at best, a fixer upper. There must be something valuable here to justify all the interest by aliens, but dang if I know what it is
Well there’s often at least a token explanation. The Sycorax wanted slaves, the Daleks wanted to complete the reality bomb, etc.
This episode feels a lot like Half-Life 2 which I like
This episode is the worst of the 3 parter, I do actually enjoy it a lot. The stuff after the fake regeneration is quite funny. I love Missy so I like her part, I don't like the climax but other than that I enjoy it.
I think the propaganda stuff has been done so much better in worse shows. Legends of Tomorrow has this premise in one episode and I believe it a lot more than I do in this, mainly because I know the characters involved in the story better by the point they do this sort of thing. And maybe it’s because it only just leans on it a little in LoT instead of being as dreary as this story is.
If I wanted to feel like a downtrodden member of society I’d go back to work and remind myself I’m only one small cog in a huge clock. And a cog that can easily be replaced if that needed to happen.
I hate the Doctor's "You're Not Like Other Girls/Humans" speech to Bill at the end.
Because Humans are idiotic dupes who will forget the trauma of being oppressed and chalk it all up to a university student prank.
But Bill is special, so The Doctor is prepared give a damn.
After all that build up and the fascinating, interesting, somewhat original concepts with the Monks in the previous two episodes… this was a major letdown for me. It’s just a generic “Aliens have conquered earth” situation and the resolution is both pat and yet another “love conquers all” thing. It’s trite and disappointing after the excellent last two episodes. I'm glad there are people who enjoyed this and I wish I was the same, but this was a shear disappointment.
I remember when I first saw it I thought it ruined a truly great story, and hadn’t revisited until now. It’s not as bad as I thought it was, still the weakest of the three, but not “ruins a great story” bad.
The mockingjay franchise is a good example of a failed ending ruining the franchise. The first 3 are good, the last dropped the ball, especially in the ending
I took the implication from the fascist layout they’d gone for throughout that the Monks just wanted control. They didn’t care who or what, they just wanted to control it.
I feel like judging the episodes merit on how well it depicts totalitarianism isn’t really helpful. Like, I get it, but also it’s doctor who. Do you think they are going to spend the rest of the series steadily dismantling the influence of a totalitarian regime or are they going to hit the magic sci-fi status quo button with a sonic screwdriver?
My problem with that is if you’re not a show that will ever properly grapple with the material… then maybe you shouldn’t be doing it.
@@CouncilofGeeks I get that. But I don’t know how else you could have presented the monks. The idea that they are these intelligent villains. That win through preparation and manipulation is interesting. I think psionic gaslighting is a fitting addition to their arsenal.
Moreover I think it would be hard to present a race of monstrous aliens taking over the earth without drawing some totalitarian parallel. It’s not quite the same thing but with the year that wasn’t the master was very totalitarian.
So in my mind I can’t see them doing this story much differently without ruining the threat of the monks and or straying very far from Doctor Who as a format. That being said I think the sudden turn into jovial comedy, with the bullets joke and the regeneration fake out, is a bit to sudden. But everyone else down here seems to agree so I guess it goes without saying.
I blame the show runner.
I think it finally clicked for me why they might have chose to have bill shoot the doctor, and it pisses me off. I hope I'm wrong, but I think its bc she's black. Combined with Bill's ending just leaves a bad taste in my mouth now.
The main problem with this one is the same problem with the capitalism in space episode.They don't understand the problem more than surface level, or benefit from the system enough to not want to present a realistic solution.
As for bills mom, the weird romanticization of parents when foster kids are involved always feels weird, but idk how much of it is my hangups with parents, and just bad stereotypes.
Oh and your comment on how bored you got at the end reminded me of something. Having adhd and not being able to focus is more than just being bored. It's like there's a perception filter on the thing. Your eyes just slide right off it like that one on Ashilder's street.
Iirc (it has been a long time since I saw this episode) the Doctor had a throwaway line praising how clever it was (unintendedly) Bill's course of action because of the fakeness of Bill's idea of her mom.
I read that scene as the Doctor trying to set historical facts straight and failing to do so because that's the strong point of propaganda.
Bill, in contrast, replaces the monk's lies with her own fake idea, but an idea that stems from love and care (just like the Doctor taking the pictures for her) instead. That would at least make a point (that you can't beat fascism with neutral facts or objectivity, but must take a stand against it?).
But maybe it's because Bill was the link, dunno
Series 10 in the whole was a disappointment and fake generations and companions never staying dead just gets old and pointless
I actually dislike all the Monk episodes, not just this one.