Folie à Deux footage (shared delusional disorder) | Dr Syl's Analysis
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- Опубликовано: 13 апр 2024
- Explore this incredible footage from the 1950s, as Dr. Syl, a junior doctor training to become a psychiatrist in Australia, delves into the intriguing world of shared delusions. Join him as he examines vintage footage, offering unique insights into psychotic disorders such as schizophrenia and shared delusional disorders. Through careful analysis and commentary, Dr. Syl sheds light on the complexities of these conditions, providing valuable understanding for viewers. Witness the approach of psychiatrists from the past and gain a deeper appreciation for the challenges and nuances of mental health care. Don't miss this captivating journey into the history of psychiatry and the human mind. Like, subscribe, and leave your thoughts in the comments below!
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** The information in this video is not intended nor implied to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. All content, including text, graphics, images, and information, contained in this video is for general information purposes only and does not replace a consultation with your own doctor/health professional. If anything in this video was distressing please consider calling LifeLine 131114 **
Timestamps
00:00 - Introduction 
Кино
What should I react to next?
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Loved the video. I still think that they should be called "additive symptoms" and "subtractive symptoms" instead of "positive" and "negative" ones. That way the value judgement misinterpretation could be avoided. It think it would also avoid a lot of confusion.
I totally agree!
I absolutely agree,nothing positive about delusional behaviour.
There is the British case of the two sisters who went completely off the rails. Cop footage shows one running into traffic. The whole episode of madness ended with the one sister killing a man who was trying to help her.
My therapist once rearranged her office very slightly, and she ended up sitting about a foot closer to me than usual, and it made me incredibly uncomfortable. It really is interesting to consider the physical aspects of care.
I have a vocal disability and my doctor was out so I had to see her very terrible head doctor and he got very annoyed that I was sitting so close to him so I moved back. And then he got annoyed that he couldn't hear me.
It’s interesting to see how the mother feeds off what the daughter is saying. The psychiatrist that they are talking with seems so patient and caring. I hope that they received the care that they needed.
Something my first ever therapist said to me was the your family can usually push your buttons because they're the ones who installed them.
@@apcolleenOoh, for sure, I like that. Thank you for sharing it.
The psychiatrist in this video has such a kind demeanor, he really engenders the trust of his patients.
Regarding their history- The reference to synagogue and the decade in which this appears to be filmed, I wonder if they’ve a shared trauma- they may be holocaust survivors. Gabor Maté discusses this topic well.
16:40 when I was sectioned with a terrifying psychotic break, I was laying on the floor all day and night, and then the doctor would come and sit down at bed when talking to me or the nurses would come sit down at the floor in front of me. That was VERY very helpful, instead of standing above me like a hawk
They probably only had them together in this case to show how they bounce off of each other, which can be quite useful to study. I doubt they kept them together for most of their evaluation bc you really can't lead the conversation or get a word in
I thought the same, although looking at this from a very different background. I'm an animal trainer and I see this sort of thing being done all the time in TV shows about dog training. Dogs are placed in way too difficult situations to get some camera footage of their issues. Trainers don't need to see the dogs lashing out or reacting badly, it's perfectly possible and in fact more effective, ethical, and safe to train dogs by keeping them just below the threshold. But it doesn't prove to the viewers that there was a real issue to begin with, and it doesn't make for good entertaiment. So they sacrifice some of the good principles to show progress and create a storyline. Even if it's done purely for educational purposes they can't show both the behaviour at it's worst and treatment at it's best.
This is potentially an exceptional case study for the power of a mothers love even at their own detriment. The way she is watching her daughter. The way she is angled towards her. The way she steps in when her daughter is the most stressed and defends her with more concrete examples when the doctor questions those delusions.
There is another, longer, upload of this interview here on RUclips. That one includes an introduction where Dr. Lehmann gives the viewer some background information on these two women and all the trouble that they had gotten themselves into (several ongoing lawsuits, constantly demanding police protection, getting arrested multiple times etc). He also speaks of how the hospital first separated mother and daughter. The mother's delusional disorder then eased, but being separated from her beloved daughter made her so depressed, that Dr. Lehmann and team felt they had no choice but to reunite them. The daughter had not yet showed any improvement and soon the mother was wrapped up in the delusions again.
13:47 maybe the doctors wanted to see their dynamics ... I agree with you, though. People who know each other well can distract each other from 'their selves'.
Ok I need to know. 😅
I'm French.
Your pronunciation of French words in your videos is always on point. 👌
Do you speak French? And does Syl stand for Sylvain?
In any case - fascinating video!!
Yes I do (averagely!)And yes it does! Thanks for the comment 🧡
@@flavi9000 I thought he said he is Australian.
It's really interesting how the daughter keeps pulling at and adjusting her clothes, whereas the mother doesn't do that - her movements seem less jarring. The daughter's narrative also seems to be the predominant one, with the mother largely just supporting and backing up what her daughter says.
Great reaction and explanations. Dr. Syl, you have the perfect voice and calmness for a psychiatrist.
Should you see this comment, I would like to know if it's likely or common for psychoactive drug users to have shared delusions.
Have you ever read Lectures on Clinical Psychiatry by Emil Kraepelin? It's like these films you comment on but in book form. Published about 100 years ago in Germany. The patients with pretty much every disorder you'd see today including drug addiction (but not eating disorders) were literally brought out before an entire theatre full of doctors. It's a great read for anyone who wants to know what mental health conditions looked like before there was any treatment beyond hot baths, physical restraints, and ancient (bromide) tranquillisers and sleeping draughts.
Another great video!! You are going to be one outstanding psychiatrist!! Keep it up!
So educational. Love your manner Dr Syl
Hey Dr. Syl, would you ever consider doing your analysis series on different movies that portray mental illness?
As an autistic who feels too much of their body and perceiving every minute change just from allergies today, it must be terrible to have that with schizophrenia.
It's interesting what you mentioned about probing. I had a pretty intense fear of men, and when my male psychiatrist did this, I didn't have the insight at that stage to understand the importance. Instead, it really intensified my fear and distrust.
I became extremely anxious in the days before and after our appointments, and was more and more hysterical each time I saw him. I was aware of the unusual way I was presenting, which made me more anxious, which intensified the behaviours.
That said, my brain also wasn't working properly at the time. I really appreciated that you mentioned considering physical causes of symptoms. It turned out that I had scurvy. 😅 In addition to the physical deterioration, it also caused hysteria and obsessive-compulsive behaviours, which improved rapidly with vitamin C.
All of that was an awful experience, but it's been a couple of years, and I do feel like my psychiatrist is on my team. I trust that he is looking out for my best interests.
It took a long time to reach that point after the initial probing though... It must be a very difficult line to walk.
I wonder if personal space was lower back then.
Also the exasperated sigh at the end we all probably did. I'm sure they feel the same though.
another masterpiece Syl
🥹
27:09 Looks like the Gordon Ramsay pose when he's talking to potentially aggressive staff haha.
Lmao spot on
Do you think it's the case that the most likely cause of a Folie a Deux is that of a case of a single person believing in a "Folie" and then transmitting that belief over to a susceptible person (for instance, the person transmitting the belief tells the susceptible person about their imagined experience with alien-inhabited police officers and then that person comes to have a similar imagined experience which leads them to the same belief)? Or, do you think that its equally or more likely that two individuals independently but concomitantly reach the same "Folie" and happen to just reinforce that belief by swapping stories about their personal experiences and helping each other further explain and justify the belief they both hold?
Also, do you think its possible that the individuals in the Folie from the video (and Folies in general) have differing underlying psychiatric conditions? For instance, is it possible that one of them could be schizoaffective and the other has some sort of bipolar disorder?
Lastly, not sure if you're into this sort of thing, but it would be cool if you analyzed the Joker character from the upcoming movie, which mentions the condition in its title.
I second the Joker movie suggestion, although will still be a while before the movie's out. I'd never seen folie à deux mentioned anywhere before the movie title, so had to find out what it's all about.
Joaquin Phoenix as Joker/Arthur from the previous movie was already an intetesting and dark character, I'm curious to see how Lady Gaga will portray Harley Quinn!
Thank you.
Great video, thank you
Good one, Dr. Syl. I watched this footage a few years ago am glad you featured it. This is such a fascinating - and debilitating - condition. Hopefully, these women found relief through treatment and were able to (re)gain function individually and together.
Can an entire society have this? I feel like this is the case recently....
Great content! TY
That was fantastic! You explained Psychosis so well..thank you
hi, I love getting insights to your approach!:)
as visible by several comments, this resonates with me a lot:)
What amazing content! Thank you for your input!
This was really interesting to watch good tape
Hi, thank you for all the amazing videos! I really enjoy your content, especially as a pharmacology student with interest in neuropsychiatry. I'm wondering whether you could make a video talking about ketogenic diet in schizophrenia.
This can actually happen without a mental illness. My mother performed exorcisms on me for 3 years and I have schizophrenia, but somehow she's normal?
Fascinating. I'm following a couple criminal cases that involve "shared delusions" and would love to know your insights or thoughts on those kinds of situations, how they compare or differ from Folie a deux. The Vallow/Daybell belief system (it's wild, I recommend looking into it if you haven't yet) and the "Slender Man" stabbing both came to mind during this video.
When a small group of people talk themselves into delusional thinking to the tune of conspiring murder together, is there a line of study for that? Is there any research into how psychosis or delusions could play into those kinds of crimes? I never know what to make of those claims myself.
Thank you for the super interesting commentary!
Very interesting video. After watching several of your videos. I do think that
Some of our politicians have serious mental health issues in tn the UK. !!!
Maybe its because I live in the US, but I'm not sure a shared delusion is as uncommon as you think. ;-)
Anyway, interesting vid...
Can you do a video on June and Jennifer Gibbons? They were nicknamed the Silent Twins because they would only communicate with each other. When they were separated at school, they both went catatonic. They decided that neither could live a full life if they were both alive, so June agreed to die. Shortly after June died of inflammation of the heart. This is just a quick overview. The movies about them came out in 1968 and 2022, both entitled, "The Silent Twins."
I can't pin the moms accent (European, perhaps) maybe this was brought on by WW2 and the trauma they experienced, just a thought.
just a small correction,, in case of an ankle story, they can't pick up signals using transmitter. That would be a receiver. Or "transceiver" if it does transmitting and receiving.🙂
Thank you for yet another interesting video, Dr Syl!
I don't think I have seen you talk thoroughly about this in any of your videos, so I wondered if you could make one talking about this. I am really interested to know about psychosis and insight. I have schizophrenia. I've had a lot of episodes of a variety of lengths where I have absolutely no insight, but in-between episodes I can have shorter periods (minutes to hours) where I don't have insight, but then gain some kind of insight in-between. But I often spiral into thought about whether or not things I experience are real. I have heard a lot about psychosis being a state without any insight, but I'm really wondering about the degree of all this. Would be interested to hear your take!
Dr.Syl, there is a part two to this video it’s with the Mother only and she shows progress without the daughter.
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You don't want to be in touching distance as it can give you a second to see any physical aggression coming your way. You have to be at a distance you can hear a person. The more angry a person is the more distance you need. Always make sure you ask a person if they want to come into the room. Even if they barge in check that they are ok about being there and they agree this. It gives you some control of the room. If the interview is going badly you can say that you think it is best if you leave the room and they usually agree giving them some control of things
The deflection of certain questions when she obviously doesn't have an answer but thinks she does so she makes up an excuse for why she's gonna give the answer later is always interesting
I once had a shrink leaning against the opposite wall yelling at me. I had not in mind to “attack” him . He was convinced that I had borderline which was the wrong DX. He was expecting a major “anger” attack. I only talked to him about DBT because I feel it helps with other illnesses. I have not been hospitalized a lot because of CBT related therapies.
Something about these two remind me of "Big" and "Little" Edie Bouvier Beal. I don't think they were this deeply psychotic, but the flavor is certainly there.
Would love to hear your take on those two as well.
I would love to see your take on Azula from ATLA
Thanks
Thank you so much Sarah. Really appreciate people that go above and beyond to support the channel 🥹
Your Welcome
The older woman...I'm not sure of her background, but I have had older family members who believed in the "mati" (evil eye). They weren't psychotic. It is a folk belief.
What is the difference between negative psychotic symptoms and those of a severe depressive episode?
Aren't isolation, lack of interest, and lack of motivation symptoms of unipolar depression too?
When does major depression become psychotic?
I know that this is different than the video.
I have heard in the videos of the other RUclipsr, who is suffering from the schizophrenia that people with such conditions are not aggressive. But listening to you seems like psychotic people can be aggressive. Which would be my natural reaction - if I encounter a psychotic person on the street, I would try to back away as soon as possible.
Hello syl. Nice video can you elaborate more on flying monkeys and gang stalking? I would appreciate it thank you
This happens all the time in Florida
I noticed that the younger woman in particular seemed to change the subject or go into circular talking when she was asked for very specific details. Is this normal and psychosis? Is it perhaps something caused by her manic symptoms?
She’s not actively listening, her brain is racing, and she is perseverating on her fears.
Folie à Deux is more than just shared delusions right? It has to include some distressing aspect or seem manic or anxious? For example groups of conspiracy theorists collectively believe "bizarre" convictions by your definition, and like most normal people, in normal mental states, are hard to dissuade from their beliefs. Doomsday preppers similarly act out on their delusions, but by their behaviour might not receive the same sort of reprimanding/treatment out of concern as these women have. The same can be seen in politics with "bizarre" claims of a New World Order or "The Great Replacement" or voter fraud(though maybe less bizarre and just more paranoid) etc. and countless examples in religion. Also I am still awaiting your video on Avoidant Personality Personality Disorder with anticipation :) Mostly because I myself is diagnosed with it and I am curious how different health care systems around the world tackle it and treat it.
A delusion is not just any odd idea you are strongly attached to. It is a fixed false belief held with 100% certainty despite all evidence to the contrary (c) Dr. Elliott.
cool, an X-Files episode was titled that, too:) nice paranormal stuff? ah, noy, psychology 😅
I had a Psychiatry Resident who was seeing me for BiPolar 1. I kid you not, here last name was Panek. I had a Psychiatrist whose last name was Cox. The Psychologist I saw during group meetings, his last name was Hyman. You just can’t make this stuff up.
Dr. SYL
How would you respond to a patient like this if they ask "do you believe me".
It’s real to them so be stating you don’t believe someone experiencing pain like this it just hurts them worse.
"acknowledge their feelings but never reinforce a delusion"
I’d say, “no, but I’m trying to understand your beliefs.”
We are taught to ask "Why is it important to you that I believe you? Why do you think I don't believe you?"
Hey!
It almost seems like they're competing with one another. The psychiatrist is saying to himself, "Get the hell outta here"! LOL
I would be tempted to ask them; if their assailants are so incredibly powerful and so determined to kill them, how is it possible that she and her mother are still alive? 'They' can't really be very powerful after all. I don't suppose that would make them question their perceptions. Is trying to spark a doubt in their minds about their delusions something you would try to do?
If you can spark doubt, then it's not a delusion. You cannot shake a delusion with conflicting evidence. It is held with 100% certainty despite all evidence to the contrary.
If they did come to doubt one particular interpretation of events they would move off into a different delusion afterward, like we saw her speculate on blackmail as a motivation.
I have to wonder about whether these types of delusions -- specifically the parts about others remotely causing pain -- will eventually be caught up to by reality. Currently, it is not unusual for large police departments to be approached by military contractors offering to sell them low-frequency sound devices for crowd control during riots. Similarly, American facilities in Iraq have experimented with using microwave deterrence devices that can make a person feel like their skin is burning when they get too close to an off-limits area. It would obviously be insanely expensive at current technology levels for a government to go after every Joe Schmoe on the street with this stuff, but the mere existence of these sorts of tools probably makes these types of delusions a lot more difficult for therapists to defuse (and, I assume, also makes the delusions more frequent in our population) than they might have been in the 1700s or 1800s
Yep, I lived this experience as a teenager living with my schizophrenic mother and her female friend, they would drive around writing down number plates saying cars were following them and saying someone was living in the roof and setting fires in the garden, very eventful childhood, today many years on currently my mum is in another psychosis thinking people are taking to her head she gets stuck on topics, I just block her now days, from my experience schizophrenia doesn’t get better it just goes on and on you can not reason with someone in a psychosis it’s extremely frustrating and draining, no one can really help, the hospitals keep them for a while then back out again never ending cycle.
Entire groups seem to share delusional beliefs
So is it that they both enforce the delusion with each other
The snake pit movie.
I almost think they would be better off separated. At least for a time.
Might this be the condition affecting the lovely ladies of Grey Gardens?
Like Chad and Lori but with psycho evil combined
I’m no Pyscharist or Psychologist nor Doctor of any sort. I maybe misinterpreting here but at 05:48ish as the mother of the two Patients, presented here, speaks up and tries to interject and complain about she herself is being made sick by the other patients at the facility, the daughter almost looks as if she’s giving her mother a very cold angry stare. It’s as if she doesn’t want to share the spotlight with her mother. Even though she’s relying on her mother to backup the accusations she’s making against the other patients at the facility…… ⚛️☮️🌏
Social distancing at most times
is it wrong to want to get ill just to see dr. syl?
As a person with MI, don't let them hurt themselves or others, but you NEVER have the right to force treatment or meds unless a person has a living will consenting to that. Too many people have had their rights run over by docs. Physically ill people are free to refuse treatment, mentally ill people are not lesser.
That's a difficult one, no? A physically ill person is of sound mind, theoretically. Someone mentally ill by definition is not. Should we never intervene if someone is attempting suicide because it is against their wishes? When someone's illness is the cause of their rejection of treatment how do we know what they would want when they aren't ill?
Can't wait till the movie comes out!😊🤡🃏
The women in this are actors playing the part as an example
how do you know if they are or are not telling the truth? just because they are upset means they are lying? They don't have witnesses to there case?
Sometimes referred to as "religion".
Or lack there of.
@@ralphfinklea7855Lack of delusional belief is the normal state.
25:42 Usually people who see a psychiatrist aren't well, and a lot of time, might not be in the state of understanding that they'd think that the psychiatrist might not believe them. Going to see a psychiatrist is not a normal everyday thing for people and for someone with trauma, the trust goes away as soon as you have people doubting everything you say. Frustration and sudden mutism can give the wrong impression for false diagnosis. These kind of views are the reason autistic people get misdiagnosed a lot. Only neurotypical people are so "paranoid" - in my lack of a better word for it, that they think all the time, that people might not believe what they say. Us, who can't lye, get frustrated about questioning, because you're questions are "irrelevant", since they don't give you any additional information - you're just basically calling us a liar. Double empathy problem is a real thing and you might want to study it. Would help a lot of autistics, if doctors knew how to correctly communicate and read us.
Aliens inhabiting world leaders ... hmmm...... it might explain a lot 👽
If you watch these educational videos would you develop too much insight to become so delusional or would you forget everything you learned as soon as you go psychotic? A lot of people on reddit seem to know they are psychotic but this pair are totally in it.
After treatment some people have insight into their delusions. But watching these videos does not stop one from having delusions.
I think schizophrenia or at least schizo issues are way more prevalent than 1% . The long-term studies are showing that over 80% of the population is psychotic. And does this also cover shared hallucinations
we do have the right to go home. Leave us alone. It's absolutely sick that you have the power to kidnap and imprison people.
Yelling please don't commit me at intake has big Janet (not a robot) from the good place when you go near her reset button.
31:03 easy answer, ask Buddha 😅
yes, but it can clearly be painful to treat someone who is asking you not to, because your social antennae are telling you not to cross this border, thank god.
Thirty-second
LOL
Er ist wirklich viel zu nahe. Mir wird nur vom zuschauen schon sehr unwohl.
Telepathy 😅it's not rocket science its in the kp nuts in new sanatorium 's it's zzzzzing from the vees coz they cure ptsd 😅true facts 😅
What ? Can you explain that a little more