The thing about AoD is that "covering Fire" picks a friendly unit (so not the enemy, there is not target enemy unit in the declaration phase meaning that you cannot react with AoD since there is no target) After picking a friendly unit, that unit "Resolves" it's shooting attacks against the closes enemy unit. According to "Core Rules 5.2" the timing of Resolution is after reactions, you cannot declare a reaction vs a "Resolve"
All out defence: “reaction: opponent declared an attack ability - used by: a unit targeted by that attack ability. “ Covering fire has keyword “attack” All attacks must ”target” the nearest enemy unit. By that logic you can…
@@Cptbaron As you say, it's a Reactiction. You cannot "react" during the resolve phase which is when Your unit is targeted, not before. Core Rules 5.2 Using abilities, Timing
Ouch! Fair play for playing that game through though. Those ward rolls were absolutely crazy from Michael. Didn't realise the state of KO until watching that game though. Played a heavy shooting Skaven list this weekend and their shooting along with abilities to boost wound rolls and rend are just crazy.
4.0 clearly outlines the order of operations in the core rules to approach handling abilities. (5.2 Using Abilities) Step 1. Declare Ability Step 2. Use Reactions Step 3. Resolve Effects In the example of Covering Fire, a unit is not targeting until step 3 in the order of operations. All out Defense requires you to be targeted to use the reaction. Step 1. Enemy declares covering fire (no targets selected yet) Step 2. No units have been targeted yet so you are ineligible to declare All out Defense. Step 3. Covering fire unit resolves effect which targets a unit.
The target of covering fire is selected during the EFFECT step of the ability , reactions like all out defense are used during the declaration step and before the effect is resolved. So you can’t all out defense hope this helps.
In addition, the covering fire is the ability used to actually shoot. So you can't use the argument either that during the effect part you would trigger the shoot ability itself, and trigger all out defence of that. So yeah, it is stupidly written, but rules as written you can't react to it😅
your flat out wrong, even before the FAQ. Read section 16 "when declaring an ATTACK ability for a unit you MUST pick the target" you always had to pick a target for the attacks in the declare step. People keep on ignoring rules in 4th. Keywords on ability's matter.
When you made in 3th round redyploy with Frigate, why frigate didnt transport also Skywardens with it and in that case you would be able to put them behind frigate - out of threat range of moutains?
For Covering Fire "Declare: Pick a friendly unit that is not in combat to use this ability" so having shoot in combat wouldn't help, you still can't use them. I wanted to do that w/ Fellwater Troggoths for the debuff but sadly seen that when I had double checked the rules.
Tha lack of magic, does mean some are taking the black talons regiment of renown to get a lvl 1 wizard and a decent melee hero to help out the shooting. The ships shooting isn’t great and only volume shooting from multiple thunderers seems to be effective for KO
KO is in such a bad state right now, it is incredible that thet didn't do more for then with the recent update. They're now below medio re at best, with very few good match ups. Imo, they're close to a need of an overhaul for half of rheir units and rules.
Fun game! I was happy to see both cows being used as I have both and would like to run them together. I'm hesitant to get the other Alarith elves+caster though as I feel like if you need both Avalenor + the stone mage to buff up the Alarith elves to make them worth it and then it's a massive points investment that is very slow and still nothing crazy when I compare it with equivalents from my other armies. I was building a model at the same time (Abraxia) so I may have missed it but is it possible that the 2 spirits of the mountains were not using their rampages (which seem quite strong)?
both their ramages were defensive rampages, the enemy needed to charge them and dave never charged the cows. but they did sprint across the table and charge him
Painful to watch when he wiped your Frigate in like one attack whilst all your guns barely scratched him. Insane how weak KO are. They seriously need to buff them.
KO doesn't seem uniquely oppressive in the shooting phase and they don't feel uniquely mobile either. I guess oddball armies that make major compromises in their ability to play in all phases will always be hard to balance, because if they are uniquely oppressive in shooting and/or movement, they will auto-win, but not enough and they will struggle.
Range armies are a problem. If you give them too much range, slow army have no possibility, if you give them too less than fast army are going to chew them.. there simple should be no army based only or almost only on range.
Yeah, Kharadron Overlords are gonna' lose. Pains me to say it as KO main, but they are pretty terrible. If KO gets doubled, you might as well start packing up, even against a casual list, and Lumineth is good no matter what ranges you use. Fight with valor, my brother and sister Duardin, even if it is a doomed effort.
KO are in a very peculiar position: 1) they’re elite in points and lack board presence 2) they lack elite armies output 3) they mobility is OK but nowhere near what is used to be and in no way compensates their weakness 4) what’s up with range and so many things hitting on 4s
Micheal it's the timing buddy. It has nothing to do with the wording in the effect of covering fire. The core rules clearly lay out the timing of reactions. I promise you it does not work.
I am not a fan of playing against heavy shooting armies. I essentially watch my army get shot to bits while I try and close the gap. It’s not a very engaging game.
All out defense is a reaction of *declare* target attacks but covering fire targets in the *effect* stage, that is why you cannot all out defense covering fire
The thing about AoD is that "covering Fire" picks a friendly unit (so not the enemy, there is not target enemy unit in the declaration phase meaning that you cannot react with AoD since there is no target)
After picking a friendly unit, that unit "Resolves" it's shooting attacks against the closes enemy unit.
According to "Core Rules 5.2" the timing of Resolution is after reactions, you cannot declare a reaction vs a "Resolve"
This is correct
All out defence: “reaction: opponent declared an attack ability - used by: a unit targeted by that attack ability. “
Covering fire has keyword “attack”
All attacks must ”target” the nearest enemy unit.
By that logic you can…
@@Cptbaron it doesn't work. Read the timing of reactions in the core rules. 5.2
@@Cptbaron As you say, it's a Reactiction. You cannot "react" during the resolve phase which is when Your unit is targeted, not before.
Core Rules 5.2 Using abilities, Timing
But doesn't the covering fire have the attack keyword?? So wouldn't it mean you could AoD?? Very new to AoS
Ouch! Fair play for playing that game through though. Those ward rolls were absolutely crazy from Michael. Didn't realise the state of KO until watching that game though. Played a heavy shooting Skaven list this weekend and their shooting along with abilities to boost wound rolls and rend are just crazy.
Michael's wards were on fire. he was way more durable than we thought possible
4.0 clearly outlines the order of operations in the core rules to approach handling abilities.
(5.2 Using Abilities)
Step 1. Declare Ability
Step 2. Use Reactions
Step 3. Resolve Effects
In the example of Covering Fire, a unit is not targeting until step 3 in the order of operations. All out Defense requires you to be targeted to use the reaction.
Step 1. Enemy declares covering fire (no targets selected yet)
Step 2. No units have been targeted yet so you are ineligible to declare All out Defense.
Step 3. Covering fire unit resolves effect which targets a unit.
and what does section 16 say?
The target of covering fire is selected during the EFFECT step of the ability , reactions like all out defense are used during the declaration step and before the effect is resolved. So you can’t all out defense hope this helps.
In addition, the covering fire is the ability used to actually shoot. So you can't use the argument either that during the effect part you would trigger the shoot ability itself, and trigger all out defence of that. So yeah, it is stupidly written, but rules as written you can't react to it😅
your flat out wrong, even before the FAQ. Read section 16 "when declaring an ATTACK ability for a unit you MUST pick the target" you always had to pick a target for the attacks in the declare step. People keep on ignoring rules in 4th. Keywords on ability's matter.
Also well done for giving them a go they can be very tricky to well and get the most out of the army
When you made in 3th round redyploy with Frigate, why frigate didnt transport also Skywardens with it and in that case you would be able to put them behind frigate - out of threat range of moutains?
That -1 tend on the cows are insane
For Covering Fire "Declare: Pick a friendly unit that is not in combat to
use this ability" so having shoot in combat wouldn't help, you still can't use them. I wanted to do that w/ Fellwater Troggoths for the debuff but sadly seen that when I had double checked the rules.
Go overlords!!!
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Add-free actually has bigtime value but youtube still had ads sadly 😅, nice batrep again, thanks guys!
thanks for the comment and for supporting the channel
Lrl gonna Take this one. Interrested to See what boatspam can do.
Loved the ending. You seemed genuinely annoyed about being asked to roll it out!
4s and 4s with only 12 attacks you have got to roll that to see if you get your battle tactic lol
Unfortunately you can't use Grudgebearer if you are in the sky, only abilities that call out being in reserve can be used
Let’s go 511 Kings
LETS GOOO!
Tha lack of magic, does mean some are taking the black talons regiment of renown to get a lvl 1 wizard and a decent melee hero to help out the shooting. The ships shooting isn’t great and only volume shooting from multiple thunderers seems to be effective for KO
KO is in such a bad state right now, it is incredible that thet didn't do more for then with the recent update. They're now below medio re at best, with very few good match ups. Imo, they're close to a need of an overhaul for half of rheir units and rules.
Fun game! I was happy to see both cows being used as I have both and would like to run them together. I'm hesitant to get the other Alarith elves+caster though as I feel like if you need both Avalenor + the stone mage to buff up the Alarith elves to make them worth it and then it's a massive points investment that is very slow and still nothing crazy when I compare it with equivalents from my other armies. I was building a model at the same time (Abraxia) so I may have missed it but is it possible that the 2 spirits of the mountains were not using their rampages (which seem quite strong)?
both their ramages were defensive rampages, the enemy needed to charge them and dave never charged the cows. but they did sprint across the table and charge him
@@BattleshockWargaming Ah ok, that makes sense!
It has been errated. You absolutely can use all out defense on covering fire now.
Vindication!
Good call on the AoD from covering fire. Imho.
@@WinnerDave99 it doesn't work though unfortunately.
Painful to watch when he wiped your Frigate in like one attack whilst all your guns barely scratched him. Insane how weak KO are. They seriously need to buff them.
KO doesn't seem uniquely oppressive in the shooting phase and they don't feel uniquely mobile either. I guess oddball armies that make major compromises in their ability to play in all phases will always be hard to balance, because if they are uniquely oppressive in shooting and/or movement, they will auto-win, but not enough and they will struggle.
thats for sure the problem very well said
my KO need some love like we need more units i think
would even another frigate be enough?
Bomb racks is movement phase, not charge, so no damage.
GET THEM DWARVES!!
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20:30 i think you forgot to add the extra attack to the stoneguard, you rolled only 7 hits right?
I saw the same thing. Should have been 10
If you squint really hard the thumbnail looks like Craftworld Eldar vs Leagues of Votann.
In a different realm they go by different names but the fight is the same
Played this matchup….prediction is Lumineth are too good for my bearded brethren. Hope I’m wrong though.
not trying to give you any spoilers in case you havent finished but i hope you enjoyed the report
@@BattleshockWargaming I did. I think the matter might have been settled in the list building phase. I hope you try out the full range of KO
KO need better range if they are going to have zero melee options.
even to 18 inches would be more viable make them harder to catch
Range armies are a problem. If you give them too much range, slow army have no possibility, if you give them too less than fast army are going to chew them.. there simple should be no army based only or almost only on range.
Yeah, Kharadron Overlords are gonna' lose. Pains me to say it as KO main, but they are pretty terrible. If KO gets doubled, you might as well start packing up, even against a casual list, and Lumineth is good no matter what ranges you use. Fight with valor, my brother and sister Duardin, even if it is a doomed effort.
It's definitely a bold choice to pair LRL into KO, playing one of the strongest armies vs one of the weakest
KO are in a very peculiar position:
1) they’re elite in points and lack board presence
2) they lack elite armies output
3) they mobility is OK but nowhere near what is used to be and in no way compensates their weakness
4) what’s up with range and so many things hitting on 4s
4th edition just a mess.
⛏️⚒️
I love stoneguard so much! I just wish they were good at something (they're not)
they seem to be pretty good at dying quickly....so they got that going for them
KO really got messed up this edition. I guess I am going to have to wait till age of sigmar 5.0
@@richardgutierrez2555 they'll get some balance updates, you won't have to wait that long.
KO aren't that bad. LRL are just really good and will be eating nerfs soon.
Micheal it's the timing buddy. It has nothing to do with the wording in the effect of covering fire. The core rules clearly lay out the timing of reactions. I promise you it does not work.
Aaaaaand it's been changed! So now we can all do it legally 😁
I am not a fan of playing against heavy shooting armies. I essentially watch my army get shot to bits while I try and close the gap. It’s not a very engaging game.
Yeah but these cows are natural sprinters can closed that gap faster than we thought
All out defense is a reaction of *declare* target attacks but covering fire targets in the *effect* stage, that is why you cannot all out defense covering fire
go read section 16, its an attack action, and when you declare an attack action you must pick a target for the attacks
@@balemoran3168 Yes, GW update covering fire declaration wording. Now we can use all-out-def for that shoots
@@CelebrintaReven before that you still could, just just needed to follow section 16