Actually, Toriel CAN kill you if you try to die really hard. But than, for a split second you see her face in absolute shock, terrified of what she has done.
5:52 it's more likely that the reason you decide to reload your save after accidentally killing Toriel is because, Flowey asks you if you like the choice you made. Since you can't go back and change what happened, implying that there is a way to save her. ... i also may have died my fight with Toriel ... then accidentally killed her in the second fight
The way I interpreted it, the genocide route actually tells the player about some of the deeper metaphors in the game within the characters. Specifically with two characters, Flowey and Sans. Flowey and Sans, from the dialogue in the genocide route, are symbolic of the player, the typical gamer who wants to get everything out of their game, and the game itself, everything Undertale stands for. In Flowey's speech before your fight with Sans, Flowey explains how he played the world over and over again, finding every single nook and cranny and exhausting every dialogue box. Flowey then says how he wonders what would happen if he decided to kill everyone, something he had not done before that point. He has already done everything else the world has to offer, and so he does it. Not out of actually wanting to kill everyone, but because he knew he could, and because he wanted to see what would happen. This is the thought process that the typical player would have, wanting to see everything the game has to offer. Flowey is the typical player who doesn't see consequences in the game and wants to get everything he can out of it. (This also explains why he can save and load) This leads directly into Sans's dialogue, where he calls you out for doing just that. Not actually wanting to kill everyone, but just doing it because you can and because you wanted to know what would happen. Sans is everything Undertale stands for and he represents everything that you said about the other two routes in this video. Sans tries to talk you out of killing him, but he knows ultimately, you will not be phased and you will kill him anyway just to see the last of what the game has to offer. Sans attempts to change you and Sans attempts to punish you. Sans is the judge the game was meant to be. Sans is the embodiment of what Undertale means. I think the genocide route is often misunderstood and is often brushed aside as being a what-if scenario with a full story, while in actuality, it has extremely deep symbolism with its duality between Flowey and Sans, the player and the game. It is Undertale come full circle, where you become the same killer that Flowey was when you first dropped into the underground. Not because you're evil, but because you're just a player like everyone else who's seeing it to the end. (It is also referenced that Flowey did have a fight with Sans when he did his own genocide route when he refers to Sans as "smiley trashbag" in one of the endings lol) If you end up reading this please reply and let me know what you think of this.
You're right, but he tries to put you in your place all too hard. When you "Spare" him, he chastens you by betraying and killing you... it's beyond the point of no return, basically, and you are denied the chance to turn back and repent. It's a sad stage of the game, but one that forces you to contemplate what you've done. But, the reason why I'm replying is this: his brusque answer to your genocide is killing you back, like the childish, tit-for-tat Flowey would have done (if he had the power to...). It's the opposite of what it should be, and people who make it this far and decide to spare almost feel that it won't come to anything, even if they try. Sans's decision only infuriates anyone who has it done to them; but, nonetheless, it serves to demonstrate that you've given up your freedom, your choice, your power, and are obliged to fulfill a destiny you don't necessarily believe in anymore. When you get cold feet, there is no hot tub to warm them; you're left empty and unsatisfied by what you're forced to do.
@@reverendmalice4664 Thanks for this, insightful reply. You're definitely right in a way, and that's a side of it I didn't think about deeply, though I wondered about that line after he said get to dunked on. I didn't reflect that that might put some people off, but the way he phrases it ("if we're really friends") would have been more effective had he not just killed the player and been very unfriendly... Sans could have done better, but you're right - he tried, and did fairly well.
This was pointed out to me, I wasn't clever enough to spot it on my own, so I don't blame any one else who doesn't notice. The ridiculously convoluted maze puzzle that randomly generates to the easiest possible path was actually one of the earlier sneaky signs of Alphys's meddling in your adventure. The first I personally found was a camera in the bushes immediately outside the ruins. But that machine by the puzzle that's assumed to control it? That's Mettaton, in box form. And he's not there anymore if you go all the way back after winning the pacifist ending, or presumably after killing him in a genocide. That puzzle was, after all, "Made by Dr. Alphys", a point we don't pick up on right away because we don't meet that character until quite a ways after we're told about her. She rigs the puzzle to let you through as part of her 'helping the human' game/narrative, and it resulting in Papyrus's 'schemes unraveling' creates this interesting situation where the *first* time you play neutral or pacifist you get this funny moment of fate just not lining up for this ambitious character, but if you play *again* you have the chance to spot a deeper plot twist, and learn that it wasn't random fate at all, but instead the machinations of a character we don't even meet for like another hour of gameplay.
bruh I knew I was onto something when I saw that that machine was mettaton, I just didn't rationalize it the way this person you say did it. I'm blown apart
@@nameman9997 There's no way to prove it, but from a story stand point it makes more sense that Alphys' desire to kill us either ended before we get to that puzzle, or was just her *saying* she wanted to kill us to make the story she was spinning feel more dramatic. Alphys and Mettaton are very effective, they've got everything under control and it seems as though the only reason Mettaton doesn't kill you outright through most of the game is because he's playing along with Alphys' little 'help the hero' narrative. Unlike other monsters who don't know what you are, underestimate you, or are playing by the rules of combat and their own limitations, Alphys and Mettaton are using machines that they can control. They don't *have* to put the lasers on patterns you can get through, they don't *have* to make the puzzles solvable, they don't *have* to make a navigable path through the core. More than any one else, they've got control over where you go and what obstacles you run into. I find it hard to believe they'd have any trouble killing you on site if they wanted to, or just straight up making progress impossible.
@@Scottthespy To add to your point about Alphys helping with the colored tile puzzle, inspecting the computer in her lab reveals that it's being used to access a puzzle in Snowdin.
"Toriel can't kill you" yes she can, and one of my favorite easter eggs is when she does. There is this one moment where her face is filled with shock, realising what just happened
Lol I love the idea of some content person still living with goat mom in the ruins occasionally opening up the game to learn a new snail fact and take a walk in the ruins, never engaging the Toriel fight
"Actually, Toriel CAN kill you if you try to die really hard. But than, for a split second you see her face in absolute shock, terrified of what she has done." this is the top comment.
@@nyctoverse5036 I'm 99% sure he was identifying that the quote in question was unnecessary. Just because he used simplistic language doesn't mean the message underneath was.
@@solar901 at really, i don't know, maybe the oversatured and brighcolors of the core or some not hard at all but annoyng puzzles and the configuration of the place bothers me, but the enemies i found them hilarious and the alphys lab i found it enjoyable overall
"Toriel can't actually kill you" So, you're telling me that in my first playthrough I was so bad, she killed me around 8 times? Wow, just wow edit after 2 years: *just to clarify this was in 2016 when I was a dumb child with zero video game skills, a lot has changed since then
I have a question. What went so wrong with Undertale(community) (Not that popular game compared to the other monster) But there was almost no shit like this with TF2! The fuck dude! What happened!?
@@Breeze45-s4h I think what happened was that people talked so much about its "deeper meaning" and didn't realise how contemptuous it came across to those who hadn't played it. The meta behind the game is insanely deep and while its possible to analyse it entirely, it is something you need to be willing to immerse yourself in (either by video essays/wiki pages, or by playing the game) to properly understand. You need to completely open yourself up to the game's meta. Most people who haven't played it probably aren't going to care, they will see it as "just another game, with a few unique design choices", and any discussion of why the meta is so incredible is going to pass entirely over their heads because they simply don't care enough to be immersed. TF2, to my knowledge, doesn't really have a backlore. I heard there were some comics or something that gave the characters backstories, but ultimately most people do just see it as a generic class-based team shooter. Maybe unique for the time, but nothing overly special beyond its genre. It is easy to get into, easy to play a few rounds and then forget it exists, easy to get back into if someone says "hey do you want to play TF2?". Hell, its even easy to discuss the characters' backstories because it doesn't require a full analysis to understand Sniper has problems with his parents or Spy is banging Scout's mom. I don't believe there was anything ever "wrong" with the Undertale community, just a problem with the way humans tend to get overexcited about things they like and not recognise when others don't give a damn. Undertale's meta-focused design makes it easily its most lovable feature, but the sheer depth of that meta makes it difficult to share that love without annoying anyone who doesn't also share it.
@@cyqry that what i think on every game with before sharing it to my friends. 'Oh hey, they probably won't care because they don't know how it works'-feeling is what i get every time. And that's why other consider the UT fandom toxic, other wont care because they dont know, some UT fans will get enraged or offended and starts firing back and vice versa
i kind of went regular rpg style, not killing every monster and avoiding fights i couldnt take. i swear it felt so ugly everytime i killed a monster and I didnt know you werent supposed to. I never rly got over Toriel's death and this was the only game that managed to have me in tears because I got the message, but it was kind of tainted for me. And now you fucking tell me that I played the game wrong and that I have to kind or run it three times in order to fully get the experience? You tell me this game is a lot deeper and that the story has a happy ending? Hell...
When i played undertale i forgot that you had to run so i ended up trying like 15 times and spending almost an hour trying to spare undyne. I never fled once
I never did notice that running was an option when your heart turned red. I finally looked it up and wondered how I didn't notice it. To be fair, you usually can't run from bosses or it does no good to do so (in the case of Toriel). It's another break from RPG and Undertale convention.
I find that I generally agree with your points about the game, but I believe you are downplaying the role of the Genocide route. While the Pacifist provides a story about self-reflection that should be learned from, the self-reflection message is buried deep an easy to miss. The Genocide route unearths that message. Without the Genocide route, it is very easy to take the Pacifist route for granted. A lovely little story about how kindness and friendship can lead to lovely outcomes. However, it is the Genocide route that drives home the point of the game by making it all but _impossible_ to ignore the subtexts of introspection. While you are playing the Genocide route, the game becomes frustratingly repetitive, causing you to question your reasoning for doing it in the first place, and having you reflect on how you consume media. Did you simply play the game for the sake of it, or did you play the game to gain something from it? Every story was made to convey something, and there is something to learn from every story. Even the Genocide route, which you dismiss as "a trap" and "pointless", was made for a reason. By playing the Pacifist route at face value, you pat yourself on the back for sticking to kindness and getting the good ending, but in the end, you are only kind _within the game,_ kind of like how Alphys kept trying to convince herself she was a good person by creating fake dangerous scenarios she could save the player from. The Genocide route, however, strips the game down to almost its very core: it erases all of the quirky embellishments that the Pacifist run carried and all but forces you to think about your motives. It removes you from the fantastical message of kindness above all that overshadows all else in the Pacifist route, and directly confronts you, the player, and forces you to introspect by providing you with consequences of your actions.
I remember playing the genocide route, and I was in Waterfall, listening to that super creepy slowmo version of the music. I remember I was scared. The place was so empty, so dark. Everything gave me bad vibes, and made me feel like I wasn't supposed to be there because it was dangerous, like I was supposed to be in a bunker with everyone else, hiding from that danger. ......shivers up my spine, when I realized, that that danger, was *me*
Couldn't agree more. Also the way of getting there can be interesting. Since some people will try to exhaust as many options as possible in multiple neutral routes to see what happens. And one day they'll naturally be faced with the possibility of just killing everything, because it's the only thing left to do. You become Flowey. At least ... pretty sure that was the intention from its messages, but since the existence of the genocide run was spread by the internet, it kinda lost its purpose. Maybe I'm petty, but it being downplayed and misunderstood ruined the entire 46 minutes of this video for me. What a terrible job he did.
I wondered if the intended message from the geno route was that the spark of violence is in all of us, something I think Chara says. It's something that's given more meaningful in the tainted true pacifist ending also when Chara wakes up again in your bed. Something I liked about this video was the idea that different routes have meaning in different ways. He just skipped this one.
I think your point about growth is 100% true. I know for certain that Undertale has definitely changed me; in fact, I’d say I owe the entirety of my progress on the Piano to Undertale. Undertale’s songs really allowed me to grow in a musical sense, and I’d like to think in a moral sense as well. You’re spot on, here, Adam.
Undertale and Toby Fox did spark my love for narrative, story, characters, music, and rekindled my love for drawing. From Undertale I found Homestuck, which served to further my loves for all aforementioned, and lead me to discover more thereafter. I would have has no interest in other artistic achievements such as Night in the Woods, LISA, or Hollow Knight. It was Undertale that indirectly caused me to change schools and stop pursuing STEM, continue to peruse art and has heavily influenced my tastes. I owe a lot to Toby Fox, and I'm sure a lot of other people do as well, as cringy as that statement sounds.
I think it’s a perfectly valid belief that I’m sure many people who enjoyed Undertale would agree with; it’s weird, I knew I loved music, and enjoyed (Casually) playing the Piano before Undertale, but I think the fact that its 101 Track OST was composed by one, singular individual (Bar about one track, I believe) Really inspired me, as it showed me that a lot of things to do with music are indeed possible, if your determined enough to do it, I mean, I could gush about its Soundtrack for hours, (But I won’t, to spare everybody the pain) The point is, it’s truly phenomenal how games can really inspire and incite such great emotion, even more so that this relatively small indie game (At the time) could do all that, all whilst completely subverting your expectations. Of course, there are flaws in the game, but, judging on Deltarune’s First Chapter, a lot of them are to be rectified.
Yes! I learned at least half of the undertale songs in the piano! And it made me a better artist, storywriter, character developer and designer, and just overall a better person! I just wanna hug or shake hands with Toby fox. :3
@@ameliac3560 yes it is, if you whach you tube videos of genoside you see how unfun it is, like the only new figts you get are whit undyin and sans and other boses die from one punch, its intentionaly unsetesfuying
The genocide path is what gives the pacifist route its meaning. Even if it is never taken by the player (yet! =) ) its mere existence creates the impact of true choice. Being caring and nice and doing your best is only meaningful when you could have not done those things; when you could have done quite the opposite. The inverse is also true. The fact that you are given every chance to be nice and nonviolent makes the genocide path so much more meaningful. Every time you strike a main character down it is meaningful (satisfying) because you know what could have been instead. You deny them their character arc and their "happy ending." The genocide path actually has the most meta commentary about games and how we as players interact with them. We do things just because we can, or we watch someone else do it for us because we are too weak to do it ourselves =). We feel good every time a number concerning our power increases. We consume every last bit of FUN we can find until it starts to seem empty and we grow bored and we move on to the next game to start the cycle again.
The thing is, all of that is completely fine, as long as it's just a game. But Undertale also breaks the fourth wall like no other videogame has ever done, and makes you analyze the actions you do in real life. At least in my case, that's how it made me change my ways.
@Inotamira Orani Maybe at the end you can't make choices anymore (because the game ended) but you can choose a lot of different endings (counting all the neutral ones) and other less important things throughout the game.
@Inotamira Orani I think the choice is if you do genocide ot not, really? Sure, you can get your full completion and see every last aspect of the game, but it's a taboo thing, if you think about it. It's a dark path, made to be grindy and merciless(haha), and most importantly, it's supposed to *permanently* stain your save game. You can go one step further and tinker with the game's very own files, but that seems like a drastic measure. Instead, simply trying to regain the pacifist ending simply won't work anymore. You've doomed this world. The happy ending is gone. And you did this. The game never asks you to go back and do this. THAT is the true beauty of this route's existence.
You're absolutely right Pale Dragon! Though I don't think Adam Milliard meant that Genocide path shouldn't exist. It absolutely should, and it's existence justifies the choices you make. His argument isn't even that taking the genocide route is a bad thing, just that the game does everything in its power to prevent you from going through with it for a reason. The obsession with completionism isn't a good thing, especially when it leads to the point of which you're not even having fun, and are just doing it solely to "see everything". And that's the point. Take what you learned and do something actually interesting and fun and productive with it.
Moldbygg's spare methods is hilarious. "Moldbygg appreciate you respecting his boundries." Personally I'm not a hug person. So this wriggling tube thing relates to me somehow.
I didn't play Undertale until this year. My first playthrough was a true pacifist run because I knew that was the right way to play. However, it didn't have an impact on me until I did a reset and tried the genocide route. It took me a few days to beat Undyne, and I had watched the Sans fight, so I knew it was gonna be a tough one. Three weeks later, I still hadn't beaten him. I was about 2-3 dialogue boxes away from beating him, but I couldn't get any further than that. Frustrated, I decided to take a walk through the other game areas. It was at that point that I realized what I had done. I had killed everyone, and as a result, every town was EMPTY. The unsettling music that played everywhere made my choices sink in further, and I knew that there was only one thing to do. I restarted the game and pressed reset. When I reached "New Home" in that playthrough, and the "Undertale" theme played, I felt an overwhelming sense of joy. The last time I was here, I was about to make the most horrible choice and kill the last people of the Underground that Alphys hadn't evacuated. Looking at the mirror and seeing the dialogue box say "Despite everything, it's still you" and getting back to Sans at level 1 made me so glad that I abandoned the genocide route. I got the true pacifist ending once more, and I haven't touched the game since.
@@KingKygonGoing through and not killing anyone, befriending Papyrus and Undyne, beating Asgore, beating Flowey, and getting the best possible neutral ending. For me, the unlocked content afterwards after reloading the save file is still the same run, so I consider the best possible neutral run AND the unlocked path to the true pacifist route as one run, hence "my first run was a true pacifist run".
Nice. I think if you care a lot about story and aren’t willing to grind a lot of enemies to reach the 2 best bosses in the game, you shouldn’t do a genocide route (I of course love fighting good bosses so I’ve done like 6 genocide playthroughs lmao)
Me: dies to toriel over 6 times so i go back and farm exp a bit so i can go and actually beat her -_- then flowey calls me scum fuck bastard so i looked up how to spare toriel because she just gives me ... and doesnt want to talk that goat thot piece of shit and tada i found out u gotta spam spare and i barely won
mark and tyler die too well tyler died mark laughed and asked how he managed to do that XD which is true her attacks are slow and easy and weak you arent SUPPOSED to die heck even TRYING you can barely pull it off the only way you can die is if you are shit at dodging
For me, when I finished this game I had depression, a really deep one in regards of throwing away a toxic person our of my life whom I tried to understand deeply for years. I was sad for feeling that there should be more things I should've tried before taking that decision (not a girlfriend, but more like a female coworker on a project ... 10 years working together). Then this game starts with this message of "keep calm and smell the flowers, dont kill" and actually I felt worse ... until I finished the true pacifist route and went all the way back to the beginning, and Asriel said like "...there are many floweys out there, and not everything can be solved by just being nice". THEN it all had sense. Saying, like I have seen around in the comment section, that Undertale is about empathy is an understatement. Sometimes Floweys uses our empathy agaisnt us. Undertale is more like "You need to know when it is enough". You had to fight to reach true pacifist at least once, and we take care of monsters whom we could show they could change, and luckily in this situation, ALL OF THEM can change and you feel happy. BUT IT IS NOT ALWAYS POSSIBLE, and you need to know when it is ENOUGH. I never did genocide route myself, because I feel it is unnecesary. Even in PS4 you can have platinum by the means of a true pacifist route only. Because I understood that, at that point when you reached the final ending, it was enough.
a couple of weeks ago, i finished the true pacifist ending of undertale. it was great, seeing all the characters happy and stuff, but then i remembered: i could reset and start a genocide run. i booted up the game, but somthing was different: flowey came. he begged not for me to reset. Then i got to the title screen. it said "true reset" instead of just plain "reset". I started a new file. Resetting alone was a gutpunch. at first i did the "hard mode" but then when i killed toriel, i found it was a troll. i reset and named the human "Chara". Thenit got to Toriel fight. I had accidentally killed her once before in my first neutral playthrough. Like I said, I killed her again in the hard mode. Killing her twice was already heartaching, pun intended. but i continued Fast forwarding, I did not enjoy the geno. route. It took me forever to finally find jerry, the last monster of snowdin forest. i stole some food and money from the shop and i got to the papyrus fight. I saw people on youtube kill him many times, so i was prepared for it. i killed the best character with no hesitation. its not a proud moment of mine, even a week later. but then i listened to something i heard him say a million times from the youtube vdeos: "S-STILL! I BELIEVE IN YOU!" at that moment, my heart imploded on itsself, even though i had heard it so many times. next, the undyne fight. frustrating, but i defeated her. However, i didnt feel any emotion when she died except for relief. Now, sans. as im writing this comment, im still trying to defeat him. i kept track, and i died 68 (edit: now 107) times so far. i know ill be exploding out of my chair with joy once i finally beat him, but all im thinking about while fighting him is papyrus, the easiest monster that i killed, and the best character. man, undertale is the only game that made me emotional. it made me into the creatures i was fighting: a monster. Edit: I finally beat the sans fight, and I was wrong. yes, I was happy at first, but quickly regretted it. I had to go back, but i didn't. In Undertale, there's no turning back.
I'm doing a geno now. After the True reset, my brother told me that it feels so weird. I personally enjoyed resetting. Then, after killing all the fuckin' monsters I prepared myself for Toriel's fight. I can't explain how exited I was when I killed her with only one hit. My brother said that I'm a megalomaniac and keeps calling me Chara. I somehow like it. When I killed Undyne (after staying awake 'till midnight, looking for strategies and trying to find my own ones) I called out my victory, I have quite enjoyed it. And there's Sans. I didn't kill him yet (I died 14 times) and it's growing frustrating (but Megalovania keeps me sane lol). I think that having the knowledge (power?) to manipulate the game files and get my soul back from Chara kinda ruins the idea of something unreversible. I also have one or two plans for when I get bored of playing by the rules. Will I get bored of playing God? I hope not. However, you can't expect so much regret from me, I mean, I did a no mercy neutral on my first playtrough! (forgive me for my bad grammar guys)
I did a genocide run currently stalled at sans with no intention of finishing it, I just wanna defeat sans, then go back and get got by him and reset as he asks. I am curious about some of how the game would play in an aborted genocide run but I know I couldn't kill papyrus again. He almost made me reset when I got to him. He's one of the hardest bosses imo, and is the first boss after toriel to keep players from accidentally stumbling into genocide if they are just trying to play like a normal RPG and grind
I happened to know, that "pacifist" was a thing before I started playing. And after my first playthrough - in which it took me ages to finally concede and attack Asgore - I looked up things, and I'm a sucker for challenging boss battles. But... I didn't want to do a genocide run. I liked these little guys I met along the way. So I just stopped playing after getting that ending
After doing a full pacifist I kind of wanted to do the genocide, and I got as far as killing toriel and… needless to say I'm giving them back their happy ending
@@mangle9143 yup, that's it. I really like the game and wanted to see the bits of genocide only story and fights but I didn't want to reset my save. It *is* just a game but I finally realized why I don't want to hurt these characters just to see that: there would be no point. Same way with games like GTA, I just don't enjoy random violence and go straight to the missions.
I’ve always thought it was about depression. You fall into a hole and you can’t either destroy everything, save everything or do something in between that will not feel as satisfying. If you think of the hole as your psyche, monsters as feelings that you either want to ignore and destroy or accept. Each main character represents, in my opinion, a facet of the mental illness. Toriel hides herself from the world, Papyrus refuses to grow up, Sans... is pretty obvious. Hiding your pain from others with humour and an uncaring attitude. Napstablook is low self-esteem due to abandonment, Alphis social anxiety, Undyne is wrath and frustration, Asgore is culpability, Mettaton is body image issues and so on... idk, it always made sense to me.
Amelie Payne it is it’s philosophy my friend there’s so many questions and so many answers only Toby can say which is right and wrong but he doesn’t why because it’s meant to have different answers for different perspectives thats philosophy
Juliette I haven’t play the game ( F my potato pc and my money pocket ) But based on the gameplay video , chat with npc , text with in the game , the game mechanics, hidden text , acronym,... My lesson from this game is that this is your world , you can make everyone happy, or turn them all to ashes. No one can stop you not frisk or sans even chara who seems like a villain but actually try to stop you from a another genocide route because she didn’t trust you that the reason why she only let you erase the world what is the point save a world that the only thing you left is ashes and a few survivors. You are a player , you are above all consequence, this game make you feel like a god. That why after too many time sans face just like that when he fight you . When i see sans fighting and his dialogue somehow I feel like is just he reading a script no emotion even when he get kill I still fell it.
I feel like the game speaks differently to everyone but I do really like this concept! My interpretation of the game is this: Love is easier to choose. And please, be good show some mercy, human.
@@venus.6892 in my opinion it's actually: love is always the better choice even if it's the hardest, since sparing enemies is much harder than fighting, as to say that violence is always the easiest choice even if love is the better one
"UGH, I really hate Alphyas, she's so annoying and I can't stand her lines!" --- Many let's players who exhibit and have talked about dealing with the same personality difficulties.
Adam J. Harper Gee dude, imagine beating people down when they’re already so low as to fully relate to Alphys. Relating a bit to Alphys isn’t weird tho, lots of people have social anxiety, feel like everything they do is wrong and/or have a low self image.
Adam J. Harper I just think Alphys’s personality makes her cute. I like that her arc is dealing with her insecurities and gaining the courage to own up to her mistakes.
@Adam J. Harper whats not epic is ypu incapitlity to understand the situation here. I could say you act like a rock. Your basic, stupid, and, heavy. You think with your ass not your brain. See the people you mentioned are all more sucessful at life than you for a reason. They dont think social anxitey is laughable.
Social anxiety is one thing. Consciously putting people who trust you in dangerous situations so you can feel better about yourself - completely different thing. Alphys should burn in hell.
I had such a weird experience with the first time i did the Asgore fight. I thought he was smiling the whole time at you, it totally threw me off... It wasn't until later when someone said that his head was down what I was seeing. That or there's some amazing double symbolism here, he's literally ashamed of how evil he has to be and what he has to do or somethin. There's no way that Toby didn't see it either when he made the sprite.
@Lilac Cloud I explain it in my post, the little bit of white in the middle of his face looks like a smile, but it's the top of his head while he's hanging his head at you.
The genocide run's whole point is that it's the antithesis of the pacifist run. When the characters refuse to grow or change, it goes badly for them. Success comes from growing as a person, but when you REFUSE to learn or grow... it ends badly. The point is, it's important to grow-- and if you don't, the consequences are never good.
That's not true... the characters all grow and change in the genocide route too, they are forced to adapt to your terrible actions. Papyrus realises he doesn't want to fight you and spares you, Undyne throws away her hatred for humans when she realises you are a threat to both races. Alphys is forced to become more confident (she even mentions this in one of the aborted genocide neutral endings) and Metaton gives up his life, realising their are more important things then his own interests. Sans finds motivation to act and fight you and Flowey realises that kill or be killed doesn't work. Asgore gets to stay true to his non-violent nature during his last moments. Chara discovers the reason they were brought back to life and in doing so finds a new (violent) purpose.
@@cormacb2326 I think they meant. In the story there are examples of characters who won't change. Asgore refused to change for untold years. He killed 6 humans, lost his wife, lost a connection to his people. He would not change. You can make him change when playing and things look up, until flowey. This comment just meant in the game characters that don't change fair badly. You help them change and grow. In genocide however. You don't change. Though as your car moment points out. You still help them change and grow. ... Even if most of them grow into a cloud of dust.
Yeah, I think the part that is the most unique in undertale, the way he described it- is that over playing it might give you more lore and hidden secrets, but man... it's really not the point I have a friend who started playing the game and got to the toriel part. She said she doesn't want to play because she'll feel too bad about killing her (haven't played it since, as far as I know). And I thought about that: Isn't THAT the point? That you feel bad and don't want to kill these monsters? Didn't it just do it's job flawlessly, despite her not playing the rest? I sometimes think of replaying it. I did the first two runs, and headed to genocide just to quit at Undyne because of how not fun it was. I didn't want her to die, not really. I felt bad for playing it. It was worse than the Amalgamytes. "but nobdy came." It's a game that encourages you, to some degree, at certain points- TO STOP PLAYING. That's insane, and it makes it quite freaking great for that, in my opinion.
I took away the opposite lesson. Determination and curiosity to see everything what the game has to offer, even the game beats it over your head multiple times on all routes to persevere by dangling bits of the deep lore hidden underneath.
The genocide run was probaly my favourite part of the game. The grinding is really boring and it was really painful to kill all the characters, but it made you realize what this game is about. Eventually I never considered the option of killing anyone. Genocide made me kill everyone and made me realize how bad it is what I'm doing. It also gave a lot of characterisation to flowey, now he's one of my favourite characters and you see how everyone else sees undyne when you fight her and then you really realize that you are the true villain. The things that everyone says also are really impactful. Something doesn't have to be fun to be good. Pacifist was way more fun to play, but genocide was still more impactful for me
@Lilac Cloud Correct me if I am wrong, but I think that by _not_ resetting Undertale you can indefinitely trap Chara in the consequences of your and her actions. Considering the fusion between Frisk and Chara, this will force not just you as a player, but also Chara to reconsider the morality of playing purely aggressively. This makes her upset and confused reaction appropriate, since so long as you refuse to reset the game, Chara will not be able to escape this limbo and kill anyone. However, despite this attempt at a heroic redemption, this ending is still as tragic and intellectually impactful as having a forever corrupted game (if not more, considering your sacrifice of ever seeing the in-game characters alive). Edit: Removed and changed confusing parts.
I disagree with your appraisal of the meaning to Undertale's genocide route-if you're treating a game as an interactive text, than you don't have the right to call a designed method of experiencing the game inconsequential to it's narrative interpretation or lessons. It is not immoral to play Undertale's genocide route-either as a first run through or as a completionist track following a Pacifist run, because it teaches a stronger lesson about the relationship between play, media, morality, and the muting of empathy that can be brought about through media-particularly games. Art isn't good only for making you feel good and games aren't only valuable if "fun", and you get less value out of Undertale's narrative messaging if you neglect either major path from your reading of it. Undertale is very effective at teaching us to consider how empathy and traditional game design can be at odds with each other, and how game design itself has many conventions which can be desensitizing and violent. It then invites us to attach and explore our own morality to these actions through creating a simulacrum of two key things: characters and betrayal/evil actions. You're supposed to feel bad playing the genocide route, but the lesson you're supposed to draw from it isn't that you shouldn't play it, but rather why do you feel bad about it? What is different about this experience? Why is the process of humanizing these characters so devastating when you then play the game, like a more traditional game? I think it's important to note that Undertale doesn't allow the viewer moral or interpretive superiority in it's text for not personally playing the genocide route. Sans clearly scolds those who experience his boss battle through watching other people play it or vicariously experiencing it in another method. If that was to be considered, than the only 'moral'-or even 'intentional' way to learn and experience the messages you pull discouraging playing it would be to never be aware of it, to completely ignore it's existence and to not experience any of it's content. And the game does actively encourage you to experience the route. It does so both by using gameplay conventions (undyne the undying and sans are regarded as the most impressive bosses to beat in the game, and from the humor, to the psychological unease, to the mystery, to the music the sans battle in particular is considered in many ways the final climax and reward of the game). Not to mention the action's of sans, flowey, and the game itself making the mystery intentionally enticing. Your player name, you learn at the end of the pacifist run, applies to the first fallen human, yes, but through out the genocide play through, that entity-the one most aligned as you the player-becomes the player character again, fully possessing and overwriting frisk. You have to play undertale as a traditional RPG to actually become the true player of the game, and to become the true player of the game, as with many, many other games, you have to abandon traditional morality, and your investment in the characters, and start treating them as obstacles instead of "people." That seems thematically important to me.
ShinyEevee _Plays don’t be a dick. They made some very good points, and the points they make aren’t in any way invalidated because the comment flew somewhat under the radar.
@@Vgamer311 they aren't saying they're invalidated, they're just pitying them because they took so much time to write a comment while only get a few hundred likes
I played this game through one week staying home from school because I had one of the biggest fevers I'd had, it was really weird but as I played true pacifist I felt like everyone was my friend kinda. the memories of playing it will always stay with me
Thank you. Stories are the most plentiful source of inert power for me and this was a beautiful way for me to think more about why that is, and why Undertale might have meant so much to me even though a lot of it on paper doesn't seem like it would get me. It did because I gave it a chance. I could give it a chance because I really needed to have the experience it gave me at that point in my life. I don't know if I think Undertale could teach people how to learn from stories and others, and it instead seems in practice to be a test of these abilities with sometimes chilling results. But I think you're right in saying that once we are capable of hearing and thinking about them, stories, because of the experiences we have through them, are the key to change.
Russell Midgley Actually Sans is only powerful if you gain karma that’s why he’s such a problem because if you fought him level 1 he wouldn’t do anything he is the weakest enemy in the game, karma just carries him and makes him a big challenge.
OK To be fair to MatPat A lot of his best content (at least back when I watched him more) isn't, or at least wasn't, about finding the true narrative meaning of games. He doesn't ask "what inspired ocarina of time and why is Link's changes between a child and adult important to the story?" He asks how strong link is given the fact that he can use the hookshot. He doesn't look at the quality of Disney stories over time, he finds the Disney kill count. MatPat doesn't look at the narrative threads of a game unless he's trying to tie unrelated bits and bobs together. (think "Sans is Ness") He made a video about Mario's height, and you're disappointed by the fact that he hasn't talked about the cohesive vision Toby Fox had while making Undertale? Game theory is about overanalyzing the minute, unimportant aspects of the game. There are only three times when he's even successfully touched on the narrative of the games he discusses: the Mario timeline, the Zelda timeline, and the FNAF timeline. And lo and behold: the connections he made between those games came from overanalyzing the minute, unimportant aspects of the game. Now, would it be cool if he, being a popular RUclipsr, gave a shoutout to the people, like you, doing narrative analysis? Yes, it would. But should he be doing that himself, or should we be disappointed that he isn't doing that style? No. Of course not.
An interesting video, with a lot of good insights, but I had a very different reading of this game, and I feel like you've missed the essential point. Undertale is about redemption. The description of monsters as "monsters" is not an accident. Even Toriel has monstrous qualities. The NPCs are representations of the monsters you meet every day: the possessive mothers; the insensitive comedians; the divas who aren't afraid to stomp on a few faces to climb to the top. It asks you to make a real moral choice about how you will deal with them. The intro with Flowey sets the tone: it lulls you into a false sense of childish nostalgia before shattering it with real drama. Undertale repeatedly uses this effect to generate genuine horror in the player. After Flowey, all the funny references and fourth wall breaking in the world shouldn't convince you to let your guard down: you, as a human being, are being tested. The ironic tropes are only there to create contrast, to allow the horror to stand out. If you kill e.g. Toriel, or Undyne -- as I did -- then you can see the game take a sudden and unexpected turn, from funny memes to truly serious business. In that sense, the metafictional aspects are absolutely not there to disincentivise immersion, they're there to increase it. Whenever the game gets serious, Toby Fox is grabbing you by the balls and, in a pleasant, buttery-smooth voice, saying you had better continue. In a way, even the reveal of Frisk's true name during the "true" ending reminds the player that he or she was the one being tested, not the character on the screen. It is at the same time a dissociation from the game, a reminder that the player should go out and face the real-life monsters he or she may have been avoiding. To my knowledge, you actually cannot get the true ending on your first playthrough, even if you kill no one; you must face Omega Flowey and play through the game a second time to have access to the Alphys date, the lab, and the barrier break. I think Toby Fox expected most people to play Undertale with an honest emotional stance regarding the monsters they encountered, and it was fans who somewhat ruined the experience by rabidly insisting that no one should kill anyone, even on their first playthrough. I think it is interesting how frankly saccharine the pacifist playthrough is, after you've experienced the true horror of a normal playthrough. You see Papyrus' comical text messages while being chased by Undyne, which might get a few cheap laughs, but you're also haunted by the horror of having killed her, and the way those text messages took an entirely different character in that context. The lab is there to remind you that the horror you experienced was real, despite the context of what you're experiencing as a pacifist. Like Frisk's naming, the pacifist playthrough is also there to disassociate you from the game, in a way, and to remind you that there is still real horror in the world, while still -- at the end -- giving you some narrative closure. To remind you that sometimes, you might have to fight a real monster. For the record, I am still literally too scared to play the genocide route. I'm aware that it reveals backstory and other information that cannot be seen in a normal or pacifistic playthrough -- which I think also needs to be taken into account, and which your analysis has essentially ignored -- but I cannot do it, because of the degree to which the game immersed me in its narrative. Undertale is a horror game, disguised as a fun and nostalgic RPG. I think it is the only game I have ever seen that is probably safe for children, but can also scare the shit out of grown adults.
@@thevoidismyhome7242 If there was an option, I would search it. But there isn't any easy way to find it :/ It would be nice if RUclips had a searchbar for the comment sections.
Tbh genocide route was my favorite. It completely shifted the tone of game and made you truly think about what you were doing, it made me feel really bad but that is what pushed me forward, because few games really made you FEEL
Eliejah Aragon And we can’t forget it has the best fights and battle themes, like Battle Against A True Hero, Megalovania. Also yeah the Undyne The Undying form is just the most metal thing in Undertale besides God Of Hyperdeath Asriel.
The Genocide Route isn't the most logical route to play, but rather a key part of the message of Undertale by showing the complete opposite of that message.
well adam, I'm happy you put so much time into it. my personal reason as an undertale creator is my own, because it's precisely because it caused me to be introspective and just love to explore the music to this day, because the music is helping me explore myself. anyway off to play the genocide route, have a great day. ^^
TEMEEEEE! Also, the wall paintings never said no humans were killed in the War. It said that "no Human souls were taken." Humans started the war (according to the Monsters) specifically because of the Monsters' ability to absorb Human souls. Therefore, it's highly likely that even when a Human WAS killed in battle, his squadmates jumped in to prevent any Monsters from completing the absorption process.
I think leaving out the genocide route is a mistake. At it's core, the story of Undertale is about empathy, the lack of such, and perseverance. And (as I've now learned from watching this video) personal growth, and it's value and importance. And while you only get to experience first hand the story surrounding lack of empathy, and the toughest bits of perseverance in the genocide run... (Your own perseverance in going through the grinding and the tough-as-nails boss fights, and that of Sans and Undyne and their efforts to stop you). The real importance of it is in the greater narrative Undertale tells through your entire time with the game. While each playthrough, and your actions within it, tell a story which touches in on those themes, it's only when you put all of those playthroughs. All of them. together that the full story is told. The meta-story Undertale tells is about omnipotence, the ethics surrounding omnipotence and what it means for those directly below the top level of power. And while that story is touched on throughout by Flowey's interactions, particularily in the ending. It's fairly incomplete without the genocide run. That doesn't mean it's wrong to skip the genocide run, It doesn't mean it's wrong to watch someone else go through it rather than play it yourself (even if Flowey calls you out for it). But I think it's as important to the overall story of the game as the pacifist+ ending is. And I don't think 'it makes me a better person because I understood the game's message" is a good reason for skipping it. There's more to the genocide run than the obvious low-hanging metaphors you can lift from it (like how killing is bad and killing people will irrevocably destroy your potential for a happy ending). The most inspiring moments in the game is found there and every single one of the kinda goofy and dysfunctional characters you interact with on the other routes are here genuinely heroic, even if in the end it doesn't work... On the other hand, maybe you don't play through it because you can't bring yourself to kill Papyrus, which is another great experience you can only have if you partake in that particular part of the game. Thanks for a great video.
Us big brains (sorry for lame forced inclusion) always show up late and no one is left to notice what we have to say lol. Either that or the fact that we spent all of our current and past attribute points into wisdom/intelligence instead of charisma doesn't help either. ecksdee I still believe that the emphasis the game purposely places on the word *determination* with bold letters and both hopeful and scary moments (such as true lab and undying undyne) gravitates, again purposefully, to the real message and "point" of the game. I think it wants to show how people can be put on two scales, as you said- I highly agree with you, Perseverance(determination) and Morality(can be empathy but there are drastic and standard cases where they both exist as separates). In knowing these 2 of another person you can depict a large sum of their likely potentiality, but also in knowing the two, you can change other people and yourself along the scales. If you have the right amount, you can truly contend for whichever goal you wish, even if that goal _requires) having both only moderate determination and morality.: for instance doing an almost genocide-ish routing but only saving Paparyus of the named bosses with some other unique optionals to have him the leader of the Underground specifically(albeit maybe a worse leader than the dog, which would may be quite normal for how human nature can be hahaha).
Also notable in my opinion is that the Genocide route shows a different side of fhe nature of the Monsters. When *you* are the true monster, something odd happens. Eventually certain Monsters who would otherwise be stuck in a certain stagnation or flawed mindset see things clearly. Undyne all of a sudden has a realization who the real enemy is. She starts fighting not only for Monsterkind, but Humankind as well. She manages to harness the power of Determination, if only for a short time. She breaks her own limits to be a true hero. Mettaton puts aside his own dreams and aspirations and even sacrifices himself for the greater good. Mettaton, undoubtedly the character most practiced in being unapologetically self-centered, makes the ultimate sacrifice without hesitation. Sans, whose seeming laziness may very well hide a deeper depression and nihilism, breaks free of his stagnation and fights, even though he knows it may be an impossible battle. That it *is* an impossible battle. Because he hopes to change your mind. These three in particular show an interesting facet of their beings that otherwise we'd never see. That even if you never change her mind like in the Pacifist run, Undyne still has the heart of a hero, she's simply misguided until she sees some proof of the truth - whether that be you proving you're not a threat, or proving that you're a monster far beyond what any other Human is. Mettaton sacrifices everything. Even if he never comes to terms with his escapism, it shows that appearances can be deceiving and he's always wanted to help people in some way. And he always tries to in the greatest way he can - whether it be putting a smile on peoples' faces, trying to help free the Underground, or sacrificing himself for the safety of all Monsterkind. And Sans shows his true depth only here. His commitment to his promises as he still tries to pull you back from this dark path. His love for his brother and his confliction as he both obviously wants to avenge Papyrus, but also decides to honor his brother by beliving in you. And the source of his seeming laziness in the first place, the fact that he knows he's not in control of his life, that you could simply RESET whenever you want and they're all along for the ride. In a dark irony, the Genocide path in some ways shows the true depth of peoples' inherent goodness. Not yours, but theirs. In the Pacifist run, you have to change them, but in this run, *they* change *themselves.* Pacifist is all well and good but maybe one lesson to be had from the Genocide route is that you aren't always the main character of life. Heck, you aren't always the hero. You don't have to be the villain either, but more importantly you don't have to be the one that changes people, fixes people. But your impact on people does matter regardless. And hey, maybe sometimes *you're* the broken one, in need of a Sans to try to save *you.*
I feel this video does a massive disservice to the Geno-Route. For me, UT's narrative isn't complete without it; The hardest-hitting moments that make you reflect on the tyranny inherent to the role of player and what drives people to be completionists in the first place. I was originally motivated by spite at the pacifist route's ending's emotionally manipulative request to not be played again, but these days I think the game was actually successful at goading me. Genocide DOES want to played, its just the video game equivalent of anti-comedy. It juxtaposes things to typically complete games for(optional bosses, missing lore) with monotony and bleak emptiness to make us introspective on why we are going through with it to begin with, how we view games as toys to be fully consumed and then thrown away, and whether its worth it at all. But because you "can", you "have to", after all. Lastly, the sans fight is still the best part of the game. I'd go as far as saying the whole rest of the game was just an elaborate way to set up context for it.(Hyperbole, but still.)
I strongly disagree. There is quite a bit to be said about Genocide, but that Undertale's narrative isn't complete without it, that Genocide is *the point,* I feel completely misses everything the game is about. Genocide exists to not be played. It does everything in its power to convince you to stop. If there's anything about it that would make the narrative as a whole more complete it would be starting a Genocide run, going part way through, and then deciding not to finish it.
I didn't mean to imply that Genocide was the game's point. I just think this video was very dismissive of the route's value to UT as a piece. There being legitimate reasons to and not to play it are what give it value to me in the first place; It comes as close to having "real" consequences as a game can get, and I find that fascinating. The psychological effect it has is one of UT's more unique artistic statements. Of course I respect someone's decision to not play it, because its actually a meaningful choice, something rare in the video-game sphere. sans entire character arc(Probably the most conceptually interesting one) is left unfinished with some serious blanks unless one plays it as well, which I for one think is pretty damn important.
I agree that the Genocide route is an essential part of Undertale, and is perhaps even more important than the Pacifist route when it comes to driving home it's actual message. I wrote a lengthy comment on this, but without boring you with the entire thing, here are some of the most important points. "Without the Genocide route, it is very easy to take the Pacifist route for granted....However, it is the Genocide route that drives home the point of the game by making it all but impossible to ignore the subtexts of introspection... By playing the Pacifist route at face value, you pat yourself on the back for sticking to kindness and getting the good ending, but in the end, you are only kind within the game, kind of like how Alphys kept trying to convince herself she was a good person by creating fake dangerous scenarios she could save the player from. The Genocide route, however,... all but forces you to think about your motives."
@@ya-like-jazz false. Just plain false. Let me tell you something: GENOCIDE DOES NOT DRIVE HOME THE POINT OF THE GAME! GENOCIDE IS NOT THE POINT OF THE GAME! GENOCIDE IS COMPLETELY UNSECEARY!
This feels like a deeper, extended version of H.Bomberguy’s Undertale video, which I enjoyed a lot. And after seeing so much meaningless speculation on the game’s lore, surface-level themes, character analysis, shipping, etc, it’s so refreshing to see such a mature take on what Undertale can mean. This is by far my favorite video about this game, and maybe even one of my favorites on this site in general.
I've seen 8 minutes of this, and while I really want to keep watching, I haven't played Undertale yet (surprising I know) and don't want to spoil it. The video has been amazing so far, but I'll watch it in it's entirety when I play it. Once again you force me to play through something and draw my own conclusions of it before seeing one of your videos. Good job Adam.
@@ArchitectofGames Sadly there's a lot of games I want to play but haven't had the time or money to play yet. Your videos just keep expanding that list. I'll get to it as quickly as possible!
Undertale is also about a man in a baseball uniform taking down 3 tyrants to murder his own wife and child and turn the world OFF. And a funky merchant.
I'm not sure I'm comfortable with the implication that someone has engaged in some kind of grand moral failing for simple curiosity about the genocide route. Yeah, it's kind of a sick, twisted story to go through, but even sick, twisted stories can have some kind of effect on us for the better. That's the whole reason horror and thrillers are so prominent in film. You don't exactly go into Silence of the Lambs thinking "Gee willickers I'm sure looking forward to this splendid experience where I learn and grow". Is engaging with a story about a serial murderer/cannibal and a serial murderer/kidnapper/rapist some grand moral failing on the part of the viewer? Or is it an attempt to try and understand what could drive someone to this place? Sometimes, these things are useful because they allow us to really understand what kind of mental state someone needs to be in to go into this grand, moral failing, and it can help us avoid those pitfalls in the future. In related news they're making a Ted Bundy movie. Pretty sure nobody is going to be rooting for the Ted Bundy character, but people are gonna watch that shit in spades.
I did the genocide route first it didn't taint my physical game (didn't have trouble with getting the other routes) I got for the Switch I'm actually glad I did the genocide route because it answers some questions in the other routes that would not be answered unless you play the genocide route.
Yeah this youtuber seems like the kind to say video games cause violence since he doesnt want to consider the begining of the plot, aka the genocide route.
Hell, The Brothers Grimm Fairy Tales were aesops and parables designed to teach various concepts and opinions in twisted ways, nothing like the cleaned up versions we get from Disney.
The mere inclusion of the genocide route begs players to experience it. I would argue an understanding of Undertale's "message" is quite incomplete without it.
The inclusion gives the player the opportunity to experience it, but it seems that the game itself is begging you to not experience it with every drop of sweat in its body. The player will usually go through it after having established an emotional bond with the monsters after the pacifist ending. The details of how to initiate a genocide run are not clarified very well by the game. Killing all of the monsters gets tedious very quickly as the encounter rate decreases. Increasing LV isn't made very exciting. The music stops being all that good. The two boss-fights that are different from the normal game are made deliberately tedious, clunky and not very fun. I agree very much, however, that the genocide route is a core part of the message of Undertale, but part of that message is most certainly that you're not actually supposed to play the genocide route, which is beyond a doubt one of the most unique narrative techniques i've ever seen in a game, or in any medium for that matter.
@@echoambiance4470 The Genocide Route only exists because you "can", and because you "can", you "must". it's a character study on the people playing or researching it, they're willing to kill all their favourite characters and destroy this world just because they "can", the characters tell you how much it hurts, the game tries to scare you out of it, you're even warned that it will have consequences.
To me, the genocide route is like the video said, how you discard everything you have learned form the game and refused to move on just to find something that can satisfy you in the game. you no longer care about the stories, their character, ect. they're just some number and pixel on your screen that you can easily get rid of, like how you instantly kill every boss with just one hit and destroy the whole world just because you can. In a way, it make what Undyne said about if you get pass her, the whole world will end (with the chara(cter) completly erase the game) by reject everything you have learned form Undertale, the whole world feel dead and it will be gone soon. Papyrus know this and he knew he can't beat you so he tried to convince you with word but he failed. Then Undyne tried to fight back with everything she could possibly have but can' do it either. Mettaton tried to do the same thing but it's nothing but a flashy level up. The only thing it can do it try to break the fourth fall and make you rage quit with sans's boss fight which you have to go out of your way to defeat and what's the reward? some little info form sans but that's basicly it. After that flowey or Asgore is just nothing left to you and the same as this world. You have done everything you can and just move on already. Even if you tried to go back and do the happy ending, do you really can feel the same way as before knowing how far you have go just because you can? that's why chara tainted your save file forever because you have tainted you experience with the game forever.
i always felt like undertale had this slightly hidden message with sans. Although he is the weakest enemy in the game the fact that you killed all his friends fills him with the determination to do what's right same with undyne
Its accually cuz of karma in the fight look at your hp bar it says "kr"His attacks deal 1 dmg but the karma deals the extra dmg in the form of posion effect I don't think sans has determantion
SolidCake I think the most depressing thing about the genocide route is that nobody can defeat you even if they try there hardest none of them can rival your determination.
Alphys is a pretty spot on representation of the undertale demographic - "Suffers from anxiety, difficulty talking to people, as well as a lack of self esteem"
@@LeiteArts10 The military robs you of thinking on your own and instead wants you to follow orders given without any question or objection. It makes you numb to violence and punishes you for actual socialy good behaviour. ...doesn't sound like a good offer.
@@Lugmillord and punishes you for actual socially good behaviour? And how do you know that? What would the military gain by having psychopaths? I'm not even sure how you draw that conclusion, did you have a bad experience with one of them? Or are they just generally like that?
Embracing the Genocide route is indeed embracing aspects of Flowey - but this doesn't have to be about refusing to learn or look inward. It's also embracing curiosity and discovery, or the desire to understand exactly how things work. The entire game (including Genocide) features tons of things you'll only see if you're actively curious enough to find them. E.g., the only way to learn why Alphys' escape plan failed in the Geno route is to listen to Muffet instead of killing her right away.
Also the Sans fight is one of the best bosses I've ever played. There's a reason its so famous. I did Genocide just to fight him, and hey, I got more lore along the way.
*43:55** Hollow, frustrating and pointless experience?* Come on, Adam, genocide route was the best part of the game! Sans and Flowey reveal their real selves and fool players into believing (for a moment, at least) that all those pixel characters have a mind of their own. Genocide adds depth to the setting, breaks the 4th wall completely and makes a great illusion, that you're actually dealing with some sort of AI who have feelings and wishes. AI with an ability to suffer and beg for peace. That's freaking awesome! It's a great meta experience, dude. The game does not lock you inside fictional world, it lets you go beyond it and discover something else out there. And that's really something. No game has ever done it so well and clever.
This is a great video that I thoroughly enjoyed but when it comes to your view of what the game is, I have to disagree and I will explain why. People take the genocide route of the game to learn more about the game and the lore surrounding it and because of that, get a different perspective on the game itself. I don't think that by taking the genocide route you are "unlearning" what you have learned about yourself and I don't think that people dissecting the games world or the game itself is a disservice to what the game it about. You can enjoy a game's message and learn about yourself from it without sacrificing an appreciation of the game from a critical point of view or learning about the different aspects of a character and the world they inhabit. A piece of media such as Star Wars has a great narrative about redemption and hope but also has crafted an amazing universe that all feels connected and real and on top of that, has great cinematography and acting. You don't have to choose one aspect of a work of art or the other to enjoy it. I do not think that making theories about Undertale or analysing every aspect of a character from it is "missing the point completely" and that indulging in one part of the game while not focusing on another is completely fine. After all, no matter how great or self-aware a game is, it is still just a game and resetting a save file to try something else is hurting no one. If you found my post enlighening or if you disagree with me, a reply would be appreciated
plus there are several very good moments in the genocide run. its the best game I've played where you are the Villon becose it's not what your supposed to do and every action is a conscious choice. that and when undine stands back up is one of my favorite acts of tragic defiance i've seen in a hero but that's just me i like last stands and that was a good one.
I agree that the Genocide route is an essential part of Undertale, and is perhaps even more important than the Pacifist route when it comes to driving home it's actual message. I wrote a lengthy comment on this, but without boring you with the entire thing, here are some of the most important points. "Without the Genocide route, it is very easy to take the Pacifist route for granted....However, it is the Genocide route that drives home the point of the game by making it all but impossible to ignore the subtexts of introspection... By playing the Pacifist route at face value, you pat yourself on the back for sticking to kindness and getting the good ending, but in the end, you are only kind _within the game,_ kind of like how Alphys kept trying to convince herself she was a good person by creating fake dangerous scenarios she could save the player from. The Genocide route, however,... all but forces you to think about your motives."
I agree with you but i think myself that what order you do the routes in matter. I believe the best order is doing pacifist and then Genocide since you learn more about yourself as a person and player and see more into the lore and understand more about the characters. Doing pacifist helps you learn about the characters and have you grow attached them. By doing the genocide route afterwards, it reminds you that it's stll just a game. It also helps you learn more about the characters and the lore. The second best way is to do pacifist, neatural and then Genocide since it helps you ease into killing monsters and the characters you grew to love. The worst way is genocide, neatural and then pacifist since it has a backwards effect. You still learn by doing it that way but it removes the point of growing attached to the characters and then killing them since you lose feeling for them since you've already killed them before.
I wholly agree with your point on a different perspective of the game. I have to admit that it took me some time, but I realized that no route or order of routes is better than another, and that each of them is an experience. I remember how GrandPooBear announced that he would not play the game again on RUclips since his speedrunner mentality and his interest for the No Mercy Run after his Neutral Run got him some slack in the comments. There are many scenes in Undertale that I would never have discovered if some let's players didn't accidentally kill this or that character, and, even though I personally wouldn't do it, it's perfectly acceptable to justify retaliating to the NPCs' attacks if you're having fun.
Furthermore, I know several people that have all but completed a Genocide Run just to get all the information they can before irrevocably changing their game state just to get all that information and reaffirm their opinions and feelings regarding the characters and their encounters.
It's interesting to note the question Asriel poses to you in dialogue at the end of the game: why would you climb a mountain that no one ever returns from?
There are few experiences that make me wish I could forget everything and do it again an experience it all for the first time again, but Undertale is certainly one of those. A 10/10 game for me
I relate to this, but perhaps that's part of the trap this interpretation of the game warns about, getting stuck in the past and being unable to move past it. When I played Dark Souls for the first time, it irrevocably changed my attitudes towards video games, and honestly, it got really hard to play games without comparing it to DS. 'This isn't as fair as DS, the challenge is artificial', 'The gameplay and story are more segregated than DS', things like that. I essentially ruined gaming for myself by developing nostalgia for a game i'd just beaten! I got so wrapped up in the experience of both Undertale and Dark Souls that I longed to experience it again the first time, even vicariously via Lets Play content, instead of actually allowing myself to enjoy newer experiences. This isn't really even a unique problem for me, as I find it exceedingly easy to latch on to those golden experiences and chase them like a drug high instead of allowing myself to experience smaller moments. That's part of why I like this interpretation of Undertale, because it's a sort of condemnation I probably need to hear.
@@GhostedJackal There's nothing wrong with being attached to older games. Hell, some games want to be replayed. Undertale doesn't want you to replay it, but it also happens to be incredibly re-playable and interesting to explore all the different outcomes. I mean, speedrunning is a thing, which is pretty much the extreme example of replaying a game. I'm not "stuck" in the past just because I replay Unreal 1 (my favorite game of all time) semi-often. If that was the case, I'd be a manchild. (been playing it since I was a toddler). Keep in mind, my love for Unreal hasn't stopped me from playing new games, and it hasn't stopped me from questioning my beliefs. I changed, but I just brought Unreal with me. Its just always been there. See, the thing that will always separate all of us from Flowey, is that he's stuck. He was trapped in the underground no matter what he did. It's almost understandable that he expunged all possible outcomes and endings from his time there. It was his only "game" so to speak. We, however, are not trapped in the underground. We can leave once the deed is done. Its part of why I think Chara is who you name when you initially boot up the game and not Frisk. Like Chara, we left once we were done with its world and characters. We moved on to the next. Flowey/Asriel was stuck in the underground, and stayed behind. I don't regret doing a genocide run, I had my reasons. (namely LORE and fighting Sans/Undyne). That doesn't make me a good person/bad person, but I didn't need that. Undertale still made me feel things and rethink everything I ever concieved about games, and I think that was its intention. At the end of the day, it's an experience. What we take away from it is up to us.
I'll have to disagree. For me, the genocide run was an essential part of the game. Papyrus staying behind even though he knows he can't fight and Undyne doing the impossible, coming back to life to delay you just a bit longer were the moments that really moved me, while the pacifist route constantly hammered home that others will help you solve your problems, you just have to wait for a kind-hearted soul. Maybe you are right. Maybe I did not learn anything from first two times I played through this game. But I still firmly hold that destroying the universe at the end of the genocide run was the right choice for me to make and that *that* playthrough was, for me at least, the place to learn something about myself.
.... if destroying the world was the RIGHT CHOICE for you and you learned something about yourself from that experience.... well I guess you're Hitler then.
@@SGresponse Let me put it this way then: The story in which the world was destroyed was the one that could teach me something, thus experiencing the story in which the world was destroyed was the right thing for me to do. It does not mean that I identify with Chara. I don't think they have a personality to identify with. Controlling them is a neccessity from the core conceit of the story. Playing the bad guy is the only way to "win", or rather complete, a story about everyone losing. The struggle against the inevitable becomes meaningless when you are forced to lose.
"Maybe you are right. Maybe I did not learn anything from first two times I played through this game." Hardly. I think Adam's opinion here is, ironically, naive and also slightly hypocritical. He's revealed that he has knowledge of the genocidal route, which means he consciously sought it out. If he did so without playing himself, it just means he relied on others to do the dirty work for him. There's a lot of very innovative and interesting things coming out of the genocide run, from a game mechanics and storytelling perspective. For one, it adapts to the playstyle being exhibited. There are some people who don't really care about the lore of a game and focus just on the fighting. In the genocide run, it lines up exactly to do that - the time consuming puzzles are removed and the player is left with just the fighting. Even the number of enemies left to maximize your level are told to the player. From a meta-narrative perspective, the player becomes the villain in the story while Undyne and Sans become the heroes. From a character development perspective, we see that Sans isn't just some pushover character making false threats - he has the power to follow up on them, and consciously chooses a life of non-violence unless he is absolutely forced to take action. Here, we also see a caution about the dangers of being too passive. If Sans had struck much earlier, rather than waiting for the player to become max level, he may have been able to stop the player. You see him lament as such in the epilogues of many of the "neutral" endings that involved a lot of killing. Then there is also the innovativeness of extending Sans' ability to attack to the menu screen, and how you have to dodge his bones while selecting what you will do with your turn. There is so much depth to the genocide run. I think dismissing it as "something the designer didn't actually want you to play" is naive.
I'm sure there's got to a can of worms to unravel as the genocide run can be alured to either by ignoring the message the game tries to teach you (Adam's reason) or morbid curiosity. Further answers to the lore, characters, the world, all while game tries to discourage you. Determination itself can be both a positive and negative force, allowing you to right wrongs or destroy the world for your selfish interests. Even so, I don't discredit the work Adam took to dysect the pasifist route, albeit the more advertised and popular run of the game (the route that subverts typical rpgs). I never played it, but from what I watched and how Adam so thoroughly placed through a lens of "growth" or "the ability (and willing) to change ones ideas, opinions, and prejudices; I'd say he put into words what hours of my attention to other's experiences of Undertale could not.
I have to agree. Even excluding the clever meta twists etc., awesome music etc in this route I'd say the genocide route was the one that taught me the most about myself and should not be dismissed. For one, it taught me a lot about how I consume media and video games (being kind of a completionist wanting to see all content available). Plus, being a rather pacifist "let's all get along" kind of person in real life (and in games as well. my first run through undertale blind I gained zero exp) it made me feel a lot of emotions I usually try to avoid, esp. guilt and regret, in kind of a safe way which was very powerful and an opportunity to learn about myself for me.
i love how undertale uses puns and gives double meanings to the words you encounter in any game or rpg. the level ups and hp and all but also the fact that you can use your "time powers" to /save/ a character and such
After all these years, I thought I had overcome the chills and feels about Undertale... But this video reminded me about everything, the pacifist run, genocide, all the characters, the True Lab... ;-; * _War flashbacks about _*_His Theme_*_ Intensifies_ *
I heard in another video like this that Sans acts as the player's moral compass. After first meeting him, in the pacifist route he's playing with you, having lots of fun and being a nice chill guy. He keeps an eye on you and gives you a helping hand every now and then. In the neutral route you don't see him too much, he's more like a shadow you think is watching you and doesn't really interact with you, especially if you've killed papyrus. In genocide, he wants nothing to do with you. Until the very end where HE confronts YOU and tries to make you feel bad at all the evil you've done. You could say his boss fight is so hard because he wants YOU the player to quit the game. This way you'll spare what little monsters are left. After hearing this, I really started looking at, at least Sans, differently. And I am very glad about that. It's amazing how such a little game can make a huge impact on people.
Doesn't not closely listening to what the gen route has to say kinda go against your point made on the mad dummy fight? If the problem is that the dummy refuses to listen to you, why would you not listen to what the gen route has to say? One may or may not like it or what it says, but it still has something to say, which we might be able to learn from. We won't know whether there is something to learn unless we listen and determine that for ourselves.
There's a really interesting scociopolitical theory about that exact problem that I cut talking about- it's called the paradox of tolerance. A guy called Karl Popper said that a truly free society that accepts everyone must reject one thing- intolerance itself. He was talking about how giving Nazis a platform allowed them to turn everyone against eachother, but the same works here. The Genocide route can be learned from, but it shouldn't be emulated, that's why the game gives you so many opportunities to back out and realise this is the wrong way to do things, and only people who have totally cut themselves off from the game ever get to the end- nullifying any potential utility the genocide route may have had for them anyway. Hope that clears things up!
That's why the true ending route makes a point of showing us that some bad guys just can't be redeemed and it's not worth trying see: flowey/asriel, the mad dummy, debatably Asgore, ect. Asriel even tells you at the end to keep an eye out for "floweys" on the surface.
@@ArchitectofGames I'm familiar with the concept of the paradox of tolerance, even though I was unaware that it was originally proposed as an argument for deplatforming Nazis. I would actually be opposed to this solution to the paradox. I'd argue naziism must activeley be opposed by arguing against it, not simply silencing it. Silencing them doesn't make them disappear, it just puts them in a bubble together with others like them, where they can further radicalize each other. I suppose that's a little off topic, so I'll proceed to your next point. You just claimed that it can be learned from, but by trying to do so you distance yourself from what is happening, so you can't learn from it. That doesn't really make sense. Why shouldn't it be emulated? Emulation is precisely where something like the gen route should be experienced. A playground where you can't hurt any other real people. If not in emulation how do you think the gen route can be learned from? Also I'm not convinced that anyone who finishes cuts themselves off completley. Yes during the more frustrating parts like fighting sans over and over, you don't generally think about what you are doing right that moment, but as soon as you get past it, it is quite possible to fall back into the game. I am basically talking about the 'YES! ... Oh no' kinda moment. It is also quite possible to stay in the game all the way through, for example through rationalization. Well not exactly. The mad dummy can be saved in the switch version, you do save Asgor in the true pacifist route, as you said this is debateable. I'd argue that it's not that 'some bad guys just can't be redeemed', but rather it's that you can't neccecarily force them to redeem themselves. Deltarune actually makes your point with the king, but neither of the games makes the case that you should not engage them or not try to redeem them. You don't know whether you can help them be redeemed unless you try. Besides redemtion isn't even the only potential positive outcome of engaging with them. You engaging with them might lead to you learning something or it might have a positive impact on someone else, for example again in deltarune Kris and Susie grow closer thanks to them trying.
@@ArchitectofGames asriel after fighting the player gives up and destroys the barrier and thus redeemed, the mad dummy is someone with an unchanging world view, if you believe in true pacifism even if your getting killed thinking if you believe hard enough they will change well your dead no pass go don't collect $200, the game has a unchangeable world view of pacifism good violence evil if you won't fight for what you love it will be taken from you by someone who will fight for it, and the fact is you can't undo gen run but can undo true ending is telling you can't redeem yourself if you have done evil but you can turn evil even if you are a saint.
I feel like the long tediousness of Waterfall was there to give you a break from the absolute sensory overload and 4th Wall breaks piled onto you by the Ruins and Snowdin.
This was a very insightful and thoughtful analysis! One thing that I always thought was a little incongruous with the point the game seems to try to make at the end about moving on was stuff like the FUN values. For those who don't know, during a given run of Undertale, there is a probability that one of several one-off, odd events can occur, ranging from getting a phone call in Snowden that turns into a musical gag to coming across strange, discolored versions of regular monsters from the game who have off-putting dialog that usually refers to a character named W.D. Gaster. These events triggered based on something called the FUN value, which was a variable hidden in Undertale's code. The original version of the game set this value to be turned off/commented out of the code, but you could go into the files and enable it. Future versions enable this value by default. However, in both cases, the only thing that causes the FUN value to change beyond manually changing the code is to do a True Reset: get the Pacifist ending and then reset the game after Flowey/Asriel tells you not to. In this way, it seems almost like you're encouraged to replay the game multiple times. This could just be Toby Fox outfitting the game with something to give to people who are bound to do multiple playthroughs, much like how different dialog options could be thought to incentivise multiple plays, or maybe it's an effort to engineer in a sort of weird, urban-legend ghost story similar to something like "fun is infinite". Maybe it was intended to goad some players into trying a Genocide route so that at least some people saw that ending. I will say, though, that if you add in Asriel's post-boss fight dialog and the ambiguity of his final fate, it does seem like Toby Fox was trying to get people to play though multiple times, or in some way indicate that there might one day be more story to tell (I'm still banking on Deltarune being connected to Undertale beyond the little references and what might be meta-commentary on AUs). So, if the aim of the end of Undertale was to get you to put down the controller and walk away, some of these extra elements feel out of place.
This was a great vid! Deffo seems to make sense as the closest thing UT has to a unified theme. And I respect the decision not to go into a deep dive of the Geno run, cos as you say, cos it would mostly be talking about a miserable experience that actively does not want to be 'had'. (also it might add like 15 more mins to the video lol)
Ok, I really wasn't on board with this to begin with... I did think there was a serious lack of discussion around this subject, but judging by the beginning, I felt you were going to assert your opinion as the be-all end-all solution; which I felt was missing the point of Undertale - but this was actually a very good video. I've thought a lot about the meaning of Undertale, but often I focus more on some parts than others, so I never really thought of it as the theme simply being self-growth... Well I half-knew it, but I never really put my finger on it. Undetale was definitely an important game for me, I'm 16 now, so I woulda 13 when I saw it. Being a fan of it through my early teenage years, it was basically the perfect time to see this game, right when I was being forced to go through some self-growth when I wasn't sure I wanted to; and also it kept me from becoming a moody edgelord. =P I thought a lot about the pacifist ending, because I think that's the first time a happy ending really made me feel... Happy... Until then, when I saw a story's happy ending I just saw it as an obligatory condition being satisfied. It also felt extremely cheesy and unreal though, even for a game set in a fantasy setting so I wasn't sure what to make of it. Eventually I came to the realisation, that the pacifist ending is supposed to be cheesy and unrealistic. Technically, although unlikely, you could get through a theoretical real-life version of this situation pacifist most of the way without the power of saving and determination; excpet the pacifist ending, because that requires you to reset. It's locked out of reality, and the final battle is literally implied to take place in a dream. It's a dream we all work towards but cannot achieve without a miracle. One topic I think this covers that you didn't touch upon is the idea of sacrifice though. The only way the happier endings can be achieved is through some sort of sacrifice. In Neutral, Asgore sacrifices himself so that you can move on with your life; and with there being so many neutral routes, they kinda represent normal people. Not evil people, but people who don't grow, who live off of the sacrifices of a few other people. For there to be change for the better, something has to be sacrificed. In the pacifist route, Asriel sacrifices his happiness for everyone else's; and in a sense, if you don't go back to do genocide, you do too by leaving your save... The way I see it - and this is becoming far more of a personal viewpoint - but I feel like in the real world, a lot of people believe in justice and karma, and I'm not sure that's the right way to look at it. If you live your life doing good deeds because you expect they will eventually either through luck or through some afterlife reward you, you're gonna be disappointed. The world doesn't get better when we're only mean to bad people and only good to good (this is not me trying to highroad you all though, of course there's people I can't stand and sometimes I still lose my temper with, I'm just stating the importance of trying to avoid that.), in fact the way i see it, the opposite is true, sadly. When you make sacrifices, it will likely be "evil" people that are the first to reap the rewards of them, even though they don't deserve them; but if sacrifices are not made the world never gets better. You aren't freed if Asgore doesn't give you his soul, and monsters aren't freed if you and Asriel can't let go. Honestly, I want to talk more about this, especially the ideas of what creates and destroys emotional attatchment in the genocide route; with how being able to undo their actions turned Chara and Flowey into who they became, but I already know most people are tl;dr-ing this, and if I made a video, I already know I'd go into a rambling fit about every possible note and detail. So I'm just gonna end this here, and say thanks for the video. It's interesting to see another interpretation of the meanings of this game, especially because I initially really overlooked the importance of Alphys and Mettaton (Hotland is actually tied for my least favourite area of the game with Waterfall). While I think the take-away from this game is extremely personal and subjective, no matter what it is, it's something that should help the player grow as a person.
Having read your introspection, I agree with what you have mentioned! Justice and karma isn't really a realistic way of the world---most likely the idealistic. I didn't quite believe in justice and karma growing up as I lived relatively spoiled and drama-free. Even if I was sympathetic to others, I didn't know how it felt to take actions and sacrifices other people had to take and put effort into because I never really had to make those hard decisions. This was in high school for me so I was around your age except I never truly realized what you already do now =) And then I learned a few years afterwards when I entered college what emotional attachments, bonds with others, and making sacrifices truly felt like. I didn't play video games like these growing up so I didn't even realize how it would feel on a meta-textual level. It was a lot of growing up for me ;___; I know your post is 10 months old but it was a joy to read about your ideas on this =)
Did the Genocide thing, fought Sans until it stopped making my heart race (which took many, many fights), and when I was done, I did one last playthrough. I couldn't do Pacifist anymore because of the Genocide tagging, so someone had to die. Just a random monster would be unsatisfying, unfitting, so I had to pick a named character to destroy in order to avoid the Frisk. Who would have the hardest time integrating into a modern human society? My answer was Undyne, and my god, if you want to know heartstring-pulling, do you a search up of "killing undyne in a pacifist run" on RUclips," holy christ it is horrifying. The end-of-game text blurb said that all the monsters lost their zest and passion without Undyne, so that's an additional kick in the balls, but I fought Flowey-God and saved at the end and erased my desktop link to the game files. It's as good an ending as I could afford the story, and if I had to do it over again then the genocide-only fights were totally worth the heartache...and make of all that what you will.
Funny thing about well written literature, whether it be novels, movies, games, etc, they tend to lend themselves to many interpretations. More than one person can be right, and quite literally everyone could be wrong about one thing or another. For me, Undertale is a game that challenges perceptions of the way I consume and interpret video game narratives. It challenged me to be more open. Both routes on the extreme ends of the spectrum invoke curiosity and push the player to achieve different kinds of mastery. I grew up with Final Fantasies, Dragon Quests, Personas, Disgaeas, and Tales of games. Games simultaneously built from and shackled to the formulas and tropes they inspired. Undertale stands out as a powerful cultural piece because it posed the question to the player of whether or not the way you experienced those RPGs of yesteryear was as complete as you thought it was. And for me in particular, I found the question to be powerful, I'd even say life changing. Upon completing a Normal route gaining a few Lvls (I had to stop killing when I reached Papyrus, there was no chance of me killing him, he's too good for that) I knew full well that I wouldn't be able to pull off a genocide run. All of my old mainstays of butchering creatures to hit the level cap threatened my ability to see the story unfold in a way that felt fulfilling. I didn't WANT to be the destroyer of their world, and to me, that choice was meaningful. That isn't to say I didn't scour the internet to see the Genocide route unfold though, the story is without question a three act play (Normal, Pacifist, Genocide, in that order) and I think you leave a lot of the narrative unexplored without the last act. But I found that experiencing the Genocide route as an observer was, for me, an even more impactful viewing of the narrative when Flowey cuts to the chase and calls out viewers of streams and youtube videos almost directly in his conversations in the player. I had at my screen a game that recognized and spoke to the experiences of gamers from all walks of life, from the most casual to the most hardcore, and that is without question a thing of magnificence. A younger me would have challenged the genocide route without hesitation, but we grow up, games grow up, and our literature grows with us. Toby Fox knew all of this, it's right here in his stories, and that's damn impressive. Undertale is a well explored narrative experience. Kudos to you for coming up with this exploration of it, helped me get more of my thoughts on the game squared away too. Definitely looking forward to the completion of Deltarune!
I'm glad other people really took to heart Flowey's message when you boot back up after completing a pacifist ending. When he told me that by resetting the game, I'm essentially becoming the game's villain, following the EXACT same path as Flowey did, it really stuck with me. I closed it back down and, despite having wanted to go back for fun a few times, I've resisted the urge to reset. The game really comes alive in how meta it is. I can think of the characters as living on in their happy ending to this day as long as my save file is still intact. To reset would feel gut-wrenching, as if I destroyed the lives of real people for my own enjoyment. That's why I just watched the genocide route on RUclips, AND EVEN THEN THE GAME STILL TALKED TO ME PERSONALLY. "At least we're better than those sickos who stand around and watch it happen... Those pathetic people that want to see it but are too weak to do it themselves. I bet someone like that is watching right now, aren't they...?" Even then, Undertale still convicted me of the wrongness of resetting, how the game's core moral philosophy actually has, at its heart, the principle of letting go. I haven't stopped listening to Undertale music, playing it on piano, watching fan made media, and - yes, even some of those dreaded theory videos - since I played the game about a year ago. It sticks with you. But it's the fleeting nature of the game that really makes it special, just like with the game OneShot. The game isn't intended to be returned to; it exists, not as a game to return to again and again, but as an EXPERIENCE. Returning to any fun thing a second time is never quite as bright and fun and enjoyable; there's always a certain aura of "been there, done that" that only increases per repeated viewing. Undertale even taunts its most devoted fans with this; once the Pacifist route is done, repeated playthroughs only offer the TINIEST bit of new dialogue or story, almost as if to make fun of your unwillingness or inability to just MOVE ON. Sans' secret code word and double-secret code word (which turns out to actually be his triple-secret code word) which leads to an extremely tongue-in-cheek and anticlimactic secret room especially stand out as little jabs at the player for continuing to slog through repeated playthroughs to glean through the most obscure new options. I'm not saying that Toby doesn't like his fans playing stuff again; the amount of cool once-in-ten-playthroughs events that happen now and again really show that the experience is designed to feel personalized, different, and fun every time. But, despite the fun of discovering new dialogue, witnessing characters grapple with this weird sense of having met you before, and uncovering tiny easter egg after tiny easter egg about W.D. Gaster, you're still filled with this uneasy foreboding, this GUILTY pleasure, filled with the knowledge of one thing: YOU SHOULDN'T BE HERE. It's for these reasons that Undertale is so iconic. I hate fandom gatekeeping, determining how the "TRUE" fans are and aren't, but it does make me wonder: Are Undertale's true fans the ones who let go?
I am 28 years old and Undertale is my favorite video game. I played Undertale 5 days after it was released; before all the memes and hubbub. This is the best analysis of it's themes I've seen so far. Thank you and well done.
Amazing video, glad I watched all the way through. Not sure if you'll see this considering how the video is almost a year old, but I can agree with you on everything you stated save for 2 topics: 1. I don't agree with your dismissal of the genocide route (see frøsti 's comment), but also... 2. 11:50 you can't just do Waterfall like that my man. The atmosphere of that area IMO is one of the most unique in the game. It calm, tranquil, a nice mid-zone between Snowdin and Hotland, and perfectly combines Toby's amazing musical skills with his use of simplified yet powerful scenery and backgrounds. (Shout out to the cyan water room with the echo flowers especially, such a beautiful room.) Waterfall, being one of the biggest zones in the game, is understandably quite a walk, but what makes it worth it is the amount of encounters and context for the world you find when passing through, so it surprised me when you mentioned there wasn't a lot to see. Waterfall is my main source of inspiration when making Undertale art. I suppose it's subjective and everyone has a favorite zone. Not a huge deal to be fair. Still a great video, you have an excellent style of expressing your thoughts on the concepts of this game.
I feel I need to defend the people that did the Genoside route. I feel it is harder to learn directly from this route than the others, but it does teach you things you didn't know. Why are you hacking away even if it already way past fun? Why are you killing monsters when they are telling you to stop? If you can answer those questions, then you got more out of Undertale than if you didn't completed the Genoside route. It's not for everyone though. I learned I like to complete things, and as soon as possible. Challenging, but fair fights make my blood boil. Also, I would kill 1000 imaginary creatures for a good soundtrack. AND before anyone tells me I'm a murderer, something Undertale crearly tells you, is that it's a game. Having an unhealthy obsession possitive or negative is bad for you. The best thing is to know the difference between games and real life. This is a lesson I learned through my life.
Ica Rue I am proud to say I did the genocide run and here’s why. I knew about the Sans fight from the very beginning because I’m a person that doesn’t live under a rock. While playing through Undertale normally enjoying it for its Earthboundish humor and story, I only ever died twice, once to Muffet and once to Asgore. Now I feel that I should say that I’m a person that actually has fun with Dark Souls games so I was looking for something harder to do. So I went and did it, I went through the brutal hours of slaying monsters to get to the Sans battle and it did not disappoint. I lost to him 12 times but it never felt like a cheap unfair loss. Sans fights just like a Dark Souls boss, he is extremely difficult to face, but time and perseverance (and insatiable bloodlust) eventually saw his fall. From there, I reset the game and uninstalled it from my PS4 never to be opened again.
Oh my god, 46 minutes of Undertale! I loved this video, it's a very interesting reading that I think I was aware of but I hadn't put it into words. Undertale is a really special game for me because prior to that game I've played very sporadically, and three years after that I just purchased a gaming laptop. I've decided that I want to contribute to this industry, and so I've decided what I wanted to do with my life: translating videogames.
The last bit past 41:00 especially was excellent, great input about moving on / seeing more in the world. Made me realize how touching this game really is
I agree that True Pacifist is the game's most fulfilling ending, and the game can easily end there. However, I don't think Genocide undoes the learning from the main game, just takes it down a different path. Having the willingness to detach from the story's characters and moral backbone purely for completion's sake definitely teaches you something about yourself. The route is the concept of LOVE expressed through gameplay with how soulless and empty the player feels, as well as the concept of DETERMINATION with the persistence necessary to complete the playthrough without doing any of the very simple tasks that let you leave the route entirely. One of the best moments in the Genocide route is Flowey's discussion with you on the path to Asgore. The one where he hammers home that yes, you have discarded the lessons Undertale has taught you, all its attempts to immerse you and get you to care for its characters in favor of being a gamer who only sees this as a game to push the limits of and nothing more. Despite that being in line with your conclusion, I find that to be one of the biggest lessons of all - that stories are more fulfilling when you engage with them on their own terms rather than try to explore every path, nitpick every plothole, save and reset to see everything, dissect the story into its base components. With moments like Flowey calling out people who spoil the point of the Genocide run by watching someone else do it and the 24 hour request not to spoil Deltarune on its release, I think Toby really works to ensure his stories are experienced the right way while at the same time not forcing anything on anyone.
And I disagree with this viee vehemently. Art is not people, no matter hpe lifelike it may be, so please stop trying to make me pretend it has feelings. I will take your argument under conaideration, but trying to beat me.over the head with it by taging my profile just seems petulant. All the more ironic that you get rid of it by opening up regedit... As if it actively tries to undermine his own point.
I liked this video a lot. I think you did a great job with explaining what it's really about at its center. Personally, I found the game to show a lot of things regarding insecurities. Toriel is insecure about letting the children go, Papyrus is insecure about popularity, Alphys is insecure about, well, basically everything. It made me realize how every well written character has not just personality traits, but flaws as well. And it spoke to me a lot, because I have many insecurities that I also have to deal with.
I was totally with you on this one - until the end. I feel like your hard refusal to accept anyone else's approach to understanding the game undercuts your entire moralistic reading here. Because Undertale is also a metacommentary on game design and the way we play games, a deep study on how story can be built on characterization rather than on plot, and a treatise on the place of passive lore in an active narrative. You can't argue that Undertale wants you to take a hard look at your own biases and predispositions and then announce that anyone who reads the game differently than you do has "missed the point" - that's you falling into the exact same trap.
Thank you, I have already learned the lessons this game tries to teach in my own life, but, I don't know what it is for sure, but this kinda just filled it all out. It kinda gave me a fuller picture, and I have a greater appreciation for this game, and I thank you for sharing this with all of us. Have a wonderful day!
I've always believed that Undertale is about how all of the choices you make have consequences, so you want to make sure that you pick the right decisions or else they can come back to bite you when it really matters.
My favourite thing about Undertale, is that it's not really as meta as people think, everything has a reason to be there and there's no such thing as a "player" Flowey sees anything as a game and people as lines of dialogue, but not because he has fourth wall awareness or anything, he completly distanced himself from the world due to his lack of emotions and his ability to reset, it's not a game but to him, it is. He doesn't want the human to leave because they would "win the game" and leave, but not because he knows it's a game, but because he's so far gone he sees this human as his dead friend and this whole situation as a friendly game between the two.
The irony about all this for me is that I was not into video games at all before I heard about Undertale. Its meme-y status inspired me to check it my very first Let's Play and I was in love immediately. My life has been all video games ever since, but the funny thing is that as a total newb all the meta stuff in Undertale went completely over my head. Undertale changed my life and opened up a whole new world of stories to me, but it didn't quite get me to self-examine in the way this video describes.
That was enjoyable. You mentioned there not being proper analyses of the game's message but I really recommend Hbomberguy's 'Perverted Sentimentality: An Analysis of UNDERTALE'. You have observations along similar lines, especially regarding the Genocide ending, but he focuses more on that criticism of obsession and inability to let go until you destroy what you once loved.
@@katiestolealltheunicorns9309 Absolutely agree, in fact, I am having the suspicion that Adam said he didn't find any comprehensive video analyses on Undertale specifically because he had found Hbomberguy's. In the first minute and a half of Harris' video we see jokes and things that Adam himself uses in this video. If not a coincidence (which it could very well be) I don't think it matters a lot in this case; Adam doesn't seem to ''steal'' any important analytical ideas, and at least to me, it seems as though he made a reading completely of his own.
It's a bit of a coincidence - I found Hbomb's video midway through production and forced myself not to watch it because I knew I'd end up accidentally stealing ideas- and then I watched it after the video was done and it turns out I'd done that anyway! Hbomb's vid is great, and there's a link to it in the description - though I'd say it's more of a spotlight on a single theme and on Alphys in particular than a comprehensive reading.
I wouldn't say it was Undertale specifically, but... This is painfully accurate for me. I've always been obsessed with stories, whether it be books, video games, or anime, and it's done a lot to affect me. Both positively and negatively. On one hand, stories were pretty much the only thing keeping my depression at bay. Hours of therapy couldn't accomplish what one episode of a good anime can. Slice of Life shows to help me ignore how uninteresting my real life is. Dramas and Comedies to stir the emotions I can barely even express to other people. Action, in case I ever just want to get fucking hyped. Also, they've helped me to find what I want to do. Write. It feels like for my whole life, I just didn't know what I wanted to do. For a while, I thought I was just using all these stories as distractions. It wasn't until just a few years ago that I realized how much I tend to alter or make new stories in my head. So, finally, I started writing seriously, and I've never been happier. I've never found such genuine enjoyment in something. It's helped me learn more about myself and my views of the world. I feel so accomplished when I get even the smallest bit of praise from the people who read my work. I've found what I want to do with my life. Yet, at a few costs. Now, writing is all I can think about. I can barely hold my attention on anything if it doesn't relate to either improving my writing directly, or at least serving as a source of inspiration. Even if people say I'm good, I never think I am. I hate complacency, which leads to me being overly hard on myself. I was already bad at school, but now, so many more classes are impossible to focus on, since I already know what I want to do. They just feel pointless. Though I feel more personally in touch with my emotions, I've actually gotten worse at expressing them. I can never stop thinking about how to improve my writing. Also, I'm still just as friendless as always, but now I talk to my family even less than before, as well. At least they're supportive of my efforts at becoming an author, even if they don't have much appreciation or understanding of writing. You know, I think I've derailed from the point of the video by this point. I really need to stop getting so overly personal, but that's just what happens when you take writing so seriously, I guess. In the end, though, it was thanks to stories that I've changed my life. MOSTLY for the better. This really was an amazing video. I never tire of looking at things from every possible angle, and you've provided a truly interesting one. Thank you.
I'm a writer too, and I can relate with a lot of this, that stories could do more for me than a counseling session--though counseling has really helped me too once I found someone who really helped me (some are better than others, you have to find the person who helps you). One of the biggest challenges of any writer is overcoming perfectionism. We want to keep growing as writers, but I don't think we'll ever be perfect in the eyes of everyone in the world since everyone has a different perspective, and that's kind of depressing to have to accept. All the best wishes to you, your writing, your family, and your friendships. Hope you find people who help you be your best self.
Actually, Toriel CAN kill you if you try to die really hard. But than, for a split second you see her face in absolute shock, terrified of what she has done.
Haha. Yeah. *tries to look like i didn't die to toriel twice on my first playthrough*
Yeah, but it’s easier to see the animation on hard mode
I'm so terrible at these games I died to Toriel by accident.
If the hand hits you, her attack ends immediately, which is a really nice touch.
5:52 it's more likely that the reason you decide to reload your save after accidentally killing Toriel is because, Flowey asks you if you like the choice you made. Since you can't go back and change what happened, implying that there is a way to save her.
... i also may have died my fight with Toriel
... then accidentally killed her in the second fight
a metatextual game who's text is about subtext and its subtext is about metatext.
an under-tale
An Undertext
BonBon Box bruh moment
An Under-tale that's under-the-tail? Is this an invitation? 😘
@@pokkiheart Really?! Isn't Undertail a name for NSFW content involving the world of Undertale, in addition to a subreddit?
@@pokkiheart Fuck its existence. Why can't we simply call it Undertale Rule 34 and be done with that?
The way I interpreted it, the genocide route actually tells the player about some of the deeper metaphors in the game within the characters. Specifically with two characters, Flowey and Sans.
Flowey and Sans, from the dialogue in the genocide route, are symbolic of the player, the typical gamer who wants to get everything out of their game, and the game itself, everything Undertale stands for. In Flowey's speech before your fight with Sans, Flowey explains how he played the world over and over again, finding every single nook and cranny and exhausting every dialogue box. Flowey then says how he wonders what would happen if he decided to kill everyone, something he had not done before that point. He has already done everything else the world has to offer, and so he does it. Not out of actually wanting to kill everyone, but because he knew he could, and because he wanted to see what would happen. This is the thought process that the typical player would have, wanting to see everything the game has to offer. Flowey is the typical player who doesn't see consequences in the game and wants to get everything he can out of it. (This also explains why he can save and load)
This leads directly into Sans's dialogue, where he calls you out for doing just that. Not actually wanting to kill everyone, but just doing it because you can and because you wanted to know what would happen. Sans is everything Undertale stands for and he represents everything that you said about the other two routes in this video. Sans tries to talk you out of killing him, but he knows ultimately, you will not be phased and you will kill him anyway just to see the last of what the game has to offer. Sans attempts to change you and Sans attempts to punish you. Sans is the judge the game was meant to be. Sans is the embodiment of what Undertale means.
I think the genocide route is often misunderstood and is often brushed aside as being a what-if scenario with a full story, while in actuality, it has extremely deep symbolism with its duality between Flowey and Sans, the player and the game. It is Undertale come full circle, where you become the same killer that Flowey was when you first dropped into the underground. Not because you're evil, but because you're just a player like everyone else who's seeing it to the end.
(It is also referenced that Flowey did have a fight with Sans when he did his own genocide route when he refers to Sans as "smiley trashbag" in one of the endings lol)
If you end up reading this please reply and let me know what you think of this.
I think you have point ☺ 👌🏿 👍🏿
You're right, but he tries to put you in your place all too hard. When you "Spare" him, he chastens you by betraying and killing you... it's beyond the point of no return, basically, and you are denied the chance to turn back and repent. It's a sad stage of the game, but one that forces you to contemplate what you've done. But, the reason why I'm replying is this: his brusque answer to your genocide is killing you back, like the childish, tit-for-tat Flowey would have done (if he had the power to...). It's the opposite of what it should be, and people who make it this far and decide to spare almost feel that it won't come to anything, even if they try. Sans's decision only infuriates anyone who has it done to them; but, nonetheless, it serves to demonstrate that you've given up your freedom, your choice, your power, and are obliged to fulfill a destiny you don't necessarily believe in anymore. When you get cold feet, there is no hot tub to warm them; you're left empty and unsatisfied by what you're forced to do.
^theres always one in every comment section
@@reverendmalice4664 Thanks for this, insightful reply. You're definitely right in a way, and that's a side of it I didn't think about deeply, though I wondered about that line after he said get to dunked on. I didn't reflect that that might put some people off, but the way he phrases it ("if we're really friends") would have been more effective had he not just killed the player and been very unfriendly... Sans could have done better, but you're right - he tried, and did fairly well.
ChaosJourney I agree 100%
This was pointed out to me, I wasn't clever enough to spot it on my own, so I don't blame any one else who doesn't notice. The ridiculously convoluted maze puzzle that randomly generates to the easiest possible path was actually one of the earlier sneaky signs of Alphys's meddling in your adventure. The first I personally found was a camera in the bushes immediately outside the ruins. But that machine by the puzzle that's assumed to control it? That's Mettaton, in box form. And he's not there anymore if you go all the way back after winning the pacifist ending, or presumably after killing him in a genocide. That puzzle was, after all, "Made by Dr. Alphys", a point we don't pick up on right away because we don't meet that character until quite a ways after we're told about her. She rigs the puzzle to let you through as part of her 'helping the human' game/narrative, and it resulting in Papyrus's 'schemes unraveling' creates this interesting situation where the *first* time you play neutral or pacifist you get this funny moment of fate just not lining up for this ambitious character, but if you play *again* you have the chance to spot a deeper plot twist, and learn that it wasn't random fate at all, but instead the machinations of a character we don't even meet for like another hour of gameplay.
Scottthespy wow
bruh I knew I was onto something when I saw that that machine was mettaton, I just didn't rationalize it the way this person you say did it. I'm blown apart
Actually, Alphys said that at first they wanted to kill you. So that was probably before they tried to help you excape
@@nameman9997 There's no way to prove it, but from a story stand point it makes more sense that Alphys' desire to kill us either ended before we get to that puzzle, or was just her *saying* she wanted to kill us to make the story she was spinning feel more dramatic. Alphys and Mettaton are very effective, they've got everything under control and it seems as though the only reason Mettaton doesn't kill you outright through most of the game is because he's playing along with Alphys' little 'help the hero' narrative. Unlike other monsters who don't know what you are, underestimate you, or are playing by the rules of combat and their own limitations, Alphys and Mettaton are using machines that they can control. They don't *have* to put the lasers on patterns you can get through, they don't *have* to make the puzzles solvable, they don't *have* to make a navigable path through the core. More than any one else, they've got control over where you go and what obstacles you run into. I find it hard to believe they'd have any trouble killing you on site if they wanted to, or just straight up making progress impossible.
@@Scottthespy To add to your point about Alphys helping with the colored tile puzzle, inspecting the computer in her lab reveals that it's being used to access a puzzle in Snowdin.
"Toriel can't kill you" yes she can, and one of my favorite easter eggs is when she does. There is this one moment where her face is filled with shock, realising what just happened
The one where she has a horrified expression and covers her mouth with her hands.
She's mortified
@@Xman34washere "Mortified" is a good word for it.
@@Kiss_My_Aspergers It means embarrassment, not horror.
Hieronymus Pseudonymous no she is definitely horrified and in pure shock
Waitwaitwaitwait
WHAT
You want to tell me that the game continues after Toriel gives you a home?!
Lol I love the idea of some content person still living with goat mom in the ruins occasionally opening up the game to learn a new snail fact and take a walk in the ruins, never engaging the Toriel fight
@@williamm9435 That's actually where I stopped.
HAHA
NICE
@@TohuBohu6 That's awesome
10$ for a game where you sit in toriels house and learn snail facts lol
Leg leg
I love leg
leg so hot
it fry an eg
finally someone noticed the best joke
I can't stop laughing my gosh.
One Word
*EG*
@@CroSpeXtor Two Words
*Read more*
@@ArchitectofGames hi dude! huge fan!
Undertale was clearly about Ness and his relationship to Crash Bandicoot and their past battles with Mario from [Other Game]
How did you guess!?
@@ArchitectofGames He's a readminder!
don't forget that Crash Bandicoot is actually Billy and Mandy in one body. That bit of lore recontextualizes everything.
@@jeremyabbott4537 Grim is actually Gaster before he became Sans and Papyrus during his fight with Shaggy
chew
"Id make a skeleton joke, but i dont have the guts"
Brook busts the door YOHOHOHOHO
S̶H̶O̶W̶ ̶M̶E̶ ̶Y̶O̶U̶R̶ ̶P̶A̶N̶T̶I̶E̶S̶
OH FUCK
I see what you did there
this made me laugh harder than i should have
Wait brook as in brook from one piece
"Toriel can't actually kill you."
Looks at Jacks playthrough, where he somehow got killed by Toriel.
I did too on my first run
"Actually, Toriel CAN kill you if you try to die really hard. But than, for a split second you see her face in absolute shock, terrified of what she has done." this is the top comment.
@@MajorlyBlue and you're a "straight" up idiot
@@ravendangernavy3575 And yet I died to her by accident.
@@nyctoverse5036 I'm 99% sure he was identifying that the quote in question was unnecessary. Just because he used simplistic language doesn't mean the message underneath was.
"waterfall is the least interesting"
bruh. waterfall is the most visually and audibly rich of all the areas
To be honest i found the core to be the most annoying area of the game
@@MasterP86 yeah, I HATE DEALING WITH THE ENEMIES!
@@MasterP86 I consider core to be a single bad part of this great game.
@@solar901 at really, i don't know, maybe the oversatured and brighcolors of the core or some not hard at all but annoyng puzzles and the configuration of the place bothers me, but the enemies i found them hilarious and the alphys lab i found it enjoyable overall
Like Echo flowers and the star room? Like, the PURE ARTISTRY OF FANART FROM WATERFALL IS GORGEOUS!
"Toriel can't actually kill you" So, you're telling me that in my first playthrough I was so bad, she killed me around 8 times? Wow, just wow
edit after 2 years: *just to clarify this was in 2016 when I was a dumb child with zero video game skills, a lot has changed since then
Actually wow
She killed me to
W A O H
@jaz angeles *first playthrough*
*FIRST*
@@cathacker13 Bro how you die if even toriel its trying to not kill you yeah first playthrough its not excuse
"Pretty much everyone played Undertale"
You mean spoiled themselves harder than FNAF theories.
I have a question. What went so wrong with Undertale(community)
(Not that popular game compared to the other monster)
But there was almost no shit like this with TF2! The fuck dude! What happened!?
@@Breeze45-s4h I think what happened was that people talked so much about its "deeper meaning" and didn't realise how contemptuous it came across to those who hadn't played it.
The meta behind the game is insanely deep and while its possible to analyse it entirely, it is something you need to be willing to immerse yourself in (either by video essays/wiki pages, or by playing the game) to properly understand. You need to completely open yourself up to the game's meta. Most people who haven't played it probably aren't going to care, they will see it as "just another game, with a few unique design choices", and any discussion of why the meta is so incredible is going to pass entirely over their heads because they simply don't care enough to be immersed.
TF2, to my knowledge, doesn't really have a backlore. I heard there were some comics or something that gave the characters backstories, but ultimately most people do just see it as a generic class-based team shooter. Maybe unique for the time, but nothing overly special beyond its genre. It is easy to get into, easy to play a few rounds and then forget it exists, easy to get back into if someone says "hey do you want to play TF2?". Hell, its even easy to discuss the characters' backstories because it doesn't require a full analysis to understand Sniper has problems with his parents or Spy is banging Scout's mom.
I don't believe there was anything ever "wrong" with the Undertale community, just a problem with the way humans tend to get overexcited about things they like and not recognise when others don't give a damn. Undertale's meta-focused design makes it easily its most lovable feature, but the sheer depth of that meta makes it difficult to share that love without annoying anyone who doesn't also share it.
@@cyqry that what i think on every game with before sharing it to my friends.
'Oh hey, they probably won't care because they don't know how it works'-feeling is what i get every time.
And that's why other consider the UT fandom toxic, other wont care because they dont know, some UT fans will get enraged or offended and starts firing back and vice versa
i kind of went regular rpg style, not killing every monster and avoiding fights i couldnt take. i swear it felt so ugly everytime i killed a monster and I didnt know you werent supposed to. I never rly got over Toriel's death and this was the only game that managed to have me in tears because I got the message, but it was kind of tainted for me.
And now you fucking tell me that I played the game wrong and that I have to kind or run it three times in order to fully get the experience? You tell me this game is a lot deeper and that the story has a happy ending? Hell...
Off That Hit Hard
When i played undertale i forgot that you had to run so i ended up trying like 15 times and spending almost an hour trying to spare undyne. I never fled once
I never did notice that running was an option when your heart turned red. I finally looked it up and wondered how I didn't notice it. To be fair, you usually can't run from bosses or it does no good to do so (in the case of Toriel). It's another break from RPG and Undertale convention.
Every blind playthrough of undertale ever.
Oof
That is dedication
@@identi8040 don't you mean DETERMINATION
Undertale was actually about MatPat giving a steam key copy of it to the pope
YEAHHHH
And about it driving MatPat insane
sans is ness
Sans is ness
Sans is NESS
SANS IS NESS
SANS IS NESS
SANS IS NESS
@@ldbonq SANSISNESS
@@ldbonq SANS=NESS AND NESS=SANS
I find that I generally agree with your points about the game, but I believe you are downplaying the role of the Genocide route. While the Pacifist provides a story about self-reflection that should be learned from, the self-reflection message is buried deep an easy to miss. The Genocide route unearths that message. Without the Genocide route, it is very easy to take the Pacifist route for granted. A lovely little story about how kindness and friendship can lead to lovely outcomes. However, it is the Genocide route that drives home the point of the game by making it all but _impossible_ to ignore the subtexts of introspection. While you are playing the Genocide route, the game becomes frustratingly repetitive, causing you to question your reasoning for doing it in the first place, and having you reflect on how you consume media. Did you simply play the game for the sake of it, or did you play the game to gain something from it?
Every story was made to convey something, and there is something to learn from every story. Even the Genocide route, which you dismiss as "a trap" and "pointless", was made for a reason. By playing the Pacifist route at face value, you pat yourself on the back for sticking to kindness and getting the good ending, but in the end, you are only kind _within the game,_ kind of like how Alphys kept trying to convince herself she was a good person by creating fake dangerous scenarios she could save the player from. The Genocide route, however, strips the game down to almost its very core: it erases all of the quirky embellishments that the Pacifist run carried and all but forces you to think about your motives. It removes you from the fantastical message of kindness above all that overshadows all else in the Pacifist route, and directly confronts you, the player, and forces you to introspect by providing you with consequences of your actions.
I remember playing the genocide route, and I was in Waterfall, listening to that super creepy slowmo version of the music. I remember I was scared. The place was so empty, so dark. Everything gave me bad vibes, and made me feel like I wasn't supposed to be there because it was dangerous, like I was supposed to be in a bunker with everyone else, hiding from that danger.
......shivers up my spine, when I realized, that that danger, was *me*
Couldn't agree more.
Also the way of getting there can be interesting.
Since some people will try to exhaust as many options as possible in multiple neutral routes to see what happens.
And one day they'll naturally be faced with the possibility of just killing everything, because it's the only thing left to do.
You become Flowey.
At least ... pretty sure that was the intention from its messages, but since the existence of the genocide run was spread by the internet, it kinda lost its purpose.
Maybe I'm petty, but it being downplayed and misunderstood ruined the entire 46 minutes of this video for me.
What a terrible job he did.
I wondered if the intended message from the geno route was that the spark of violence is in all of us, something I think Chara says. It's something that's given more meaningful in the tainted true pacifist ending also when Chara wakes up again in your bed.
Something I liked about this video was the idea that different routes have meaning in different ways. He just skipped this one.
Yeah, to this day I've never successfully pulled off a genocide route, so fucking tedious.
I did genocide because i like to see people DIE.
I think your point about growth is 100% true. I know for certain that Undertale has definitely changed me; in fact, I’d say I owe the entirety of my progress on the Piano to Undertale. Undertale’s songs really allowed me to grow in a musical sense, and I’d like to think in a moral sense as well. You’re spot on, here, Adam.
same with me but with drawing. looking back at them theyre really cringey but ive improved
Undertale and Toby Fox did spark my love for narrative, story, characters, music, and rekindled my love for drawing. From Undertale I found Homestuck, which served to further my loves for all aforementioned, and lead me to discover more thereafter. I would have has no interest in other artistic achievements such as Night in the Woods, LISA, or Hollow Knight.
It was Undertale that indirectly caused me to change schools and stop pursuing STEM, continue to peruse art and has heavily influenced my tastes. I owe a lot to Toby Fox, and I'm sure a lot of other people do as well, as cringy as that statement sounds.
I think it’s a perfectly valid belief that I’m sure many people who enjoyed Undertale would agree with; it’s weird, I knew I loved music, and enjoyed (Casually) playing the Piano before Undertale, but I think the fact that its 101 Track OST was composed by one, singular individual (Bar about one track, I believe) Really inspired me, as it showed me that a lot of things to do with music are indeed possible, if your determined enough to do it, I mean, I could gush about its Soundtrack for hours, (But I won’t, to spare everybody the pain) The point is, it’s truly phenomenal how games can really inspire and incite such great emotion, even more so that this relatively small indie game (At the time) could do all that, all whilst completely subverting your expectations. Of course, there are flaws in the game, but, judging on Deltarune’s First Chapter, a lot of them are to be rectified.
Yes! I learned at least half of the undertale songs in the piano! And it made me a better artist, storywriter, character developer and designer, and just overall a better person! I just wanna hug or shake hands with Toby fox. :3
Dovahgame2099 Same!
I always say that Undertale is about one thing: empathy.
Edit: y'all please don't take this too seriously. Keep it cute in the replies.
Xan Shipstew you can tell that everyone who liked this comment 100% agreed with you, since nobody had anything else to say.
Except in genocide XD
@@azeriaknights nah i believe the genocide route enforces the empathy theme, as lack of empathy has consequences
@@ameliac3560 Tru Tru
@@ameliac3560 yes it is, if you whach you tube videos of genoside you see how unfun it is, like the only new figts you get are whit undyin and sans and other boses die from one punch, its intentionaly unsetesfuying
The genocide path is what gives the pacifist route its meaning. Even if it is never taken by the player (yet! =) ) its mere existence creates the impact of true choice. Being caring and nice and doing your best is only meaningful when you could have not done those things; when you could have done quite the opposite. The inverse is also true. The fact that you are given every chance to be nice and nonviolent makes the genocide path so much more meaningful. Every time you strike a main character down it is meaningful (satisfying) because you know what could have been instead. You deny them their character arc and their "happy ending."
The genocide path actually has the most meta commentary about games and how we as players interact with them. We do things just because we can, or we watch someone else do it for us because we are too weak to do it ourselves =). We feel good every time a number concerning our power increases. We consume every last bit of FUN we can find until it starts to seem empty and we grow bored and we move on to the next game to start the cycle again.
The thing is, all of that is completely fine, as long as it's just a game. But Undertale also breaks the fourth wall like no other videogame has ever done, and makes you analyze the actions you do in real life. At least in my case, that's how it made me change my ways.
@Inotamira Orani Maybe at the end you can't make choices anymore (because the game ended) but you can choose a lot of different endings (counting all the neutral ones) and other less important things throughout the game.
@Inotamira Orani I think the choice is if you do genocide ot not, really? Sure, you can get your full completion and see every last aspect of the game, but it's a taboo thing, if you think about it. It's a dark path, made to be grindy and merciless(haha), and most importantly, it's supposed to *permanently* stain your save game. You can go one step further and tinker with the game's very own files, but that seems like a drastic measure. Instead, simply trying to regain the pacifist ending simply won't work anymore. You've doomed this world. The happy ending is gone.
And you did this. The game never asks you to go back and do this. THAT is the true beauty of this route's existence.
Talking bout tinkering with files, I tried to do that when Flowey took over in the normal ending. But sadly nothing happened :(
You're absolutely right Pale Dragon! Though I don't think Adam Milliard meant that Genocide path shouldn't exist. It absolutely should, and it's existence justifies the choices you make. His argument isn't even that taking the genocide route is a bad thing, just that the game does everything in its power to prevent you from going through with it for a reason. The obsession with completionism isn't a good thing, especially when it leads to the point of which you're not even having fun, and are just doing it solely to "see everything". And that's the point. Take what you learned and do something actually interesting and fun and productive with it.
The part with you comparing Mettaton and Alphys, can be shortened very easily
*Virgin Dino vs Chad Robot*
Gay Chad robot
*why*
God I'm fucking dying at this
Both gay
@@rowanheart8122 jk rowling?
Moldbygg's spare methods is hilarious.
"Moldbygg appreciate you respecting his boundries."
Personally I'm not a hug person. So this wriggling tube thing relates to me somehow.
i feel like each and every one of us can relate to some npc in Undertale
Its*
I didn't play Undertale until this year. My first playthrough was a true pacifist run because I knew that was the right way to play. However, it didn't have an impact on me until I did a reset and tried the genocide route.
It took me a few days to beat Undyne, and I had watched the Sans fight, so I knew it was gonna be a tough one. Three weeks later, I still hadn't beaten him. I was about 2-3 dialogue boxes away from beating him, but I couldn't get any further than that. Frustrated, I decided to take a walk through the other game areas.
It was at that point that I realized what I had done. I had killed everyone, and as a result, every town was EMPTY. The unsettling music that played everywhere made my choices sink in further, and I knew that there was only one thing to do. I restarted the game and pressed reset.
When I reached "New Home" in that playthrough, and the "Undertale" theme played, I felt an overwhelming sense of joy. The last time I was here, I was about to make the most horrible choice and kill the last people of the Underground that Alphys hadn't evacuated. Looking at the mirror and seeing the dialogue box say "Despite everything, it's still you" and getting back to Sans at level 1 made me so glad that I abandoned the genocide route. I got the true pacifist ending once more, and I haven't touched the game since.
gud, very cool of you
How'd you do a true pacifist run in your first run tho?
@@KingKygonGoing through and not killing anyone, befriending Papyrus and Undyne, beating Asgore, beating Flowey, and getting the best possible neutral ending. For me, the unlocked content afterwards after reloading the save file is still the same run, so I consider the best possible neutral run AND the unlocked path to the true pacifist route as one run, hence "my first run was a true pacifist run".
@@ChrisLeigh Oh I see, I was like "True pacifist comes after the neutral run" so I didn't know if there was like a hidden route
Nice. I think if you care a lot about story and aren’t willing to grind a lot of enemies to reach the 2 best bosses in the game, you shouldn’t do a genocide route (I of course love fighting good bosses so I’ve done like 6 genocide playthroughs lmao)
5:06 "Toriel can't actually kill you."
Jacksepticeye: *dies from Toriel*
Me: dies to toriel over 6 times so i go back and farm exp a bit so i can go and actually beat her -_- then flowey calls me scum fuck bastard so i looked up how to spare toriel because she just gives me ... and doesnt want to talk that goat thot piece of shit and tada i found out u gotta spam spare and i barely won
mark and tyler die too
well tyler died mark laughed and asked how he managed to do that XD
which is true her attacks are slow and easy and weak you arent SUPPOSED to die heck even TRYING you can barely pull it off
the only way you can die is if you are shit at dodging
me: *dies by toriel aswell*
also me: *was actually trying to die by toriel*
shoulda been "Jacksepticeye: I'm about to end this man's whole career"
For me, when I finished this game I had depression, a really deep one in regards of throwing away a toxic person our of my life whom I tried to understand deeply for years. I was sad for feeling that there should be more things I should've tried before taking that decision (not a girlfriend, but more like a female coworker on a project ... 10 years working together).
Then this game starts with this message of "keep calm and smell the flowers, dont kill" and actually I felt worse ... until I finished the true pacifist route and went all the way back to the beginning, and Asriel said like "...there are many floweys out there, and not everything can be solved by just being nice". THEN it all had sense.
Saying, like I have seen around in the comment section, that Undertale is about empathy is an understatement. Sometimes Floweys uses our empathy agaisnt us. Undertale is more like "You need to know when it is enough". You had to fight to reach true pacifist at least once, and we take care of monsters whom we could show they could change, and luckily in this situation, ALL OF THEM can change and you feel happy. BUT IT IS NOT ALWAYS POSSIBLE, and you need to know when it is ENOUGH.
I never did genocide route myself, because I feel it is unnecesary. Even in PS4 you can have platinum by the means of a true pacifist route only. Because I understood that, at that point when you reached the final ending, it was enough.
It's about two children coming up with a plan, plan goes wrong, and then the plans after effects are presented to you.
That is the most indirect, yet concise description of Undertale's story I've ever heard. But you're not wrong.
This is not what undertale is about..lol
Almost! It was 1 kids plan and the other reluctantly went with it
the plan’s aftermath*
@@sleepyee_ Asriel and Chara
a couple of weeks ago, i finished the true pacifist ending of undertale. it was great, seeing all the characters happy and stuff, but then i remembered: i could reset and start a genocide run. i booted up the game, but somthing was different: flowey came. he begged not for me to reset. Then i got to the title screen. it said "true reset" instead of just plain "reset". I started a new file. Resetting alone was a gutpunch. at first i did the "hard mode" but then when i killed toriel, i found it was a troll. i reset and named the human "Chara".
Thenit got to Toriel fight. I had accidentally killed her once before in my first neutral playthrough. Like I said, I killed her again in the hard mode. Killing her twice was already heartaching, pun intended. but i continued
Fast forwarding, I did not enjoy the geno. route. It took me forever to finally find jerry, the last monster of snowdin forest. i stole some food and money from the shop and i got to the papyrus fight. I saw people on youtube kill him many times, so i was prepared for it. i killed the best character with no hesitation. its not a proud moment of mine, even a week later. but then i listened to something i heard him say a million times from the youtube vdeos: "S-STILL! I BELIEVE IN YOU!" at that moment, my heart imploded on itsself, even though i had heard it so many times.
next, the undyne fight. frustrating, but i defeated her. However, i didnt feel any emotion when she died except for relief.
Now, sans. as im writing this comment, im still trying to defeat him. i kept track, and i died 68 (edit: now 107) times so far. i know ill be exploding out of my chair with joy once i finally beat him, but all im thinking about while fighting him is papyrus, the easiest monster that i killed, and the best character.
man, undertale is the only game that made me emotional. it made me into the creatures i was fighting: a monster.
Edit: I finally beat the sans fight, and I was wrong.
yes, I was happy at first, but quickly regretted it. I had to go back, but i didn't. In Undertale, there's no turning back.
F
That’s deep 😞
I'm doing a geno now. After the True reset, my brother told me that it feels so weird. I personally enjoyed resetting. Then, after killing all the fuckin' monsters I prepared myself for Toriel's fight. I can't explain how exited I was when I killed her with only one hit. My brother said that I'm a megalomaniac and keeps calling me Chara. I somehow like it. When I killed Undyne (after staying awake 'till midnight, looking for strategies and trying to find my own ones) I called out my victory, I have quite enjoyed it. And there's Sans. I didn't kill him yet (I died 14 times) and it's growing frustrating (but Megalovania keeps me sane lol). I think that having the knowledge (power?) to manipulate the game files and get my soul back from Chara kinda ruins the idea of something unreversible. I also have one or two plans for when I get bored of playing by the rules. Will I get bored of playing God? I hope not.
However, you can't expect so much regret from me, I mean, I did a no mercy neutral on my first playtrough!
(forgive me for my bad grammar guys)
I did a genocide run currently stalled at sans with no intention of finishing it, I just wanna defeat sans, then go back and get got by him and reset as he asks. I am curious about some of how the game would play in an aborted genocide run but I know I couldn't kill papyrus again. He almost made me reset when I got to him. He's one of the hardest bosses imo, and is the first boss after toriel to keep players from accidentally stumbling into genocide if they are just trying to play like a normal RPG and grind
I happened to know, that "pacifist" was a thing before I started playing. And after my first playthrough - in which it took me ages to finally concede and attack Asgore - I looked up things, and I'm a sucker for challenging boss battles. But... I didn't want to do a genocide run. I liked these little guys I met along the way. So I just stopped playing after getting that ending
After doing a full pacifist I kind of wanted to do the genocide, and I got as far as killing toriel and… needless to say I'm giving them back their happy ending
@@mangle9143 yup, that's it. I really like the game and wanted to see the bits of genocide only story and fights but I didn't want to reset my save. It *is* just a game but I finally realized why I don't want to hurt these characters just to see that: there would be no point. Same way with games like GTA, I just don't enjoy random violence and go straight to the missions.
This is one of the best videos you've ever made thank you
I’ve always thought it was about depression.
You fall into a hole and you can’t either destroy everything, save everything or do something in between that will not feel as satisfying.
If you think of the hole as your psyche, monsters as feelings that you either want to ignore and destroy or accept. Each main character represents, in my opinion, a facet of the mental illness.
Toriel hides herself from the world, Papyrus refuses to grow up, Sans... is pretty obvious. Hiding your pain from others with humour and an uncaring attitude. Napstablook is low self-esteem due to abandonment, Alphis social anxiety, Undyne is wrath and frustration, Asgore is culpability, Mettaton is body image issues and so on...
idk, it always made sense to me.
Amelie Payne it is it’s philosophy my friend there’s so many questions and so many answers only Toby can say which is right and wrong but he doesn’t why because it’s meant to have different answers for different perspectives thats philosophy
Juliette
I haven’t play the game ( F my potato pc and my money pocket )
But based on the gameplay video , chat with npc , text with in the game , the game mechanics, hidden text , acronym,...
My lesson from this game is that this is your world , you can make everyone happy, or turn them all to ashes. No one can stop you not frisk or sans even chara who seems like a villain but actually try to stop you from a another genocide route because she didn’t trust you that the reason why she only let you erase the world what is the point save a world that the only thing you left is ashes and a few survivors. You are a player , you are above all consequence, this game make you feel like a god. That why after too many time sans face just like that when he fight you . When i see sans fighting and his dialogue somehow I feel like is just he reading a script no emotion even when he get kill I still fell it.
I feel like the game speaks differently to everyone but I do really like this concept! My interpretation of the game is this: Love is easier to choose. And please, be good show some mercy, human.
@@venus.6892 in my opinion it's actually: love is always the better choice even if it's the hardest, since sparing enemies is much harder than fighting, as to say that violence is always the easiest choice even if love is the better one
RosesBubble yeah, I can get behind that
8:06 Fun Fact: The odds of you getting that exact Puzzle is around a 1.71E-10 % or 0.0000000000171% chance
Actually it’s 100%
@@MutedAndReported3032
I have a song for you.
Oh, is it a bird,
Is is a bed,
Is it a plane?
Nope, its the joke, flying over yer head!
@@ExtremeDemon UNO reverse card
@@ExtremeDemon also its not a joke, it's a fact.
reverse dream luck
"UGH, I really hate Alphyas, she's so annoying and I can't stand her lines!"
--- Many let's players who exhibit and have talked about dealing with the same personality difficulties.
Adam J. Harper Gee dude, imagine beating people down when they’re already so low as to fully relate to Alphys. Relating a bit to Alphys isn’t weird tho, lots of people have social anxiety, feel like everything they do is wrong and/or have a low self image.
Adam J. Harper I just think Alphys’s personality makes her cute. I like that her arc is dealing with her insecurities and gaining the courage to own up to her mistakes.
@Adam J. Harper whats not epic is ypu incapitlity to understand the situation here. I could say you act like a rock. Your basic, stupid, and, heavy. You think with your ass not your brain. See the people you mentioned are all more sucessful at life than you for a reason. They dont think social anxitey is laughable.
Social anxiety is one thing. Consciously putting people who trust you in dangerous situations so you can feel better about yourself - completely different thing.
Alphys should burn in hell.
@@thislopop2700 damn. That's all I have to say.
I really hope you're joking tho.
I had such a weird experience with the first time i did the Asgore fight. I thought he was smiling the whole time at you, it totally threw me off... It wasn't until later when someone said that his head was down what I was seeing.
That or there's some amazing double symbolism here, he's literally ashamed of how evil he has to be and what he has to do or somethin. There's no way that Toby didn't see it either when he made the sprite.
@Lilac Cloud I explain it in my post, the little bit of white in the middle of his face looks like a smile, but it's the top of his head while he's hanging his head at you.
thanyou Yeah it’s actually a soreful frown.
Lilac Cloud Plus you were such a kind human so he really doesn’t wanna strike you down.
@Lilac Cloud i did too
That’s fascinating! I had always thought it was a helmet he put on.
The genocide run's whole point is that it's the antithesis of the pacifist run. When the characters refuse to grow or change, it goes badly for them. Success comes from growing as a person, but when you REFUSE to learn or grow... it ends badly. The point is, it's important to grow-- and if you don't, the consequences are never good.
That's not true... the characters all grow and change in the genocide route too, they are forced to adapt to your terrible actions. Papyrus realises he doesn't want to fight you and spares you, Undyne throws away her hatred for humans when she realises you are a threat to both races. Alphys is forced to become more confident (she even mentions this in one of the aborted genocide neutral endings) and Metaton gives up his life, realising their are more important things then his own interests. Sans finds motivation to act and fight you and Flowey realises that kill or be killed doesn't work. Asgore gets to stay true to his non-violent nature during his last moments. Chara discovers the reason they were brought back to life and in doing so finds a new (violent) purpose.
yes, I watched the video too.
@@cormacb2326 I think they meant.
In the story there are examples of characters who won't change.
Asgore refused to change for untold years. He killed 6 humans, lost his wife, lost a connection to his people.
He would not change.
You can make him change when playing and things look up, until flowey.
This comment just meant in the game characters that don't change fair badly. You help them change and grow.
In genocide however. You don't change.
Though as your car moment points out.
You still help them change and grow.
...
Even if most of them grow into a cloud of dust.
@lezanji1884 the genocide route is specifically about growth, exp, hp, atk and lv
Yeah, I think the part that is the most unique in undertale, the way he described it- is that over playing it might give you more lore and hidden secrets, but man... it's really not the point
I have a friend who started playing the game and got to the toriel part. She said she doesn't want to play because she'll feel too bad about killing her (haven't played it since, as far as I know).
And I thought about that: Isn't THAT the point? That you feel bad and don't want to kill these monsters? Didn't it just do it's job flawlessly, despite her not playing the rest?
I sometimes think of replaying it. I did the first two runs, and headed to genocide just to quit at Undyne because of how not fun it was. I didn't want her to die, not really. I felt bad for playing it. It was worse than the Amalgamytes. "but nobdy came."
It's a game that encourages you, to some degree, at certain points- TO STOP PLAYING. That's insane, and it makes it quite freaking great for that, in my opinion.
I took away the opposite lesson. Determination and curiosity to see everything what the game has to offer, even the game beats it over your head multiple times on all routes to persevere by dangling bits of the deep lore hidden underneath.
The genocide run was probaly my favourite part of the game. The grinding is really boring and it was really painful to kill all the characters, but it made you realize what this game is about. Eventually I never considered the option of killing anyone. Genocide made me kill everyone and made me realize how bad it is what I'm doing. It also gave a lot of characterisation to flowey, now he's one of my favourite characters and you see how everyone else sees undyne when you fight her and then you really realize that you are the true villain. The things that everyone says also are really impactful. Something doesn't have to be fun to be good. Pacifist was way more fun to play, but genocide was still more impactful for me
Yeah, I get what you guys are saying
You might be right, tbh
@Lilac Cloud Correct me if I am wrong, but I think that by _not_ resetting Undertale you can indefinitely trap Chara in the consequences of your and her actions. Considering the fusion between Frisk and Chara, this will force not just you as a player, but also Chara to reconsider the morality of playing purely aggressively. This makes her upset and confused reaction appropriate, since so long as you refuse to reset the game, Chara will not be able to escape this limbo and kill anyone. However, despite this attempt at a heroic redemption, this ending is still as tragic and intellectually impactful as having a forever corrupted game (if not more, considering your sacrifice of ever seeing the in-game characters alive).
Edit: Removed and changed confusing parts.
I disagree with your appraisal of the meaning to Undertale's genocide route-if you're treating a game as an interactive text, than you don't have the right to call a designed method of experiencing the game inconsequential to it's narrative interpretation or lessons. It is not immoral to play Undertale's genocide route-either as a first run through or as a completionist track following a Pacifist run, because it teaches a stronger lesson about the relationship between play, media, morality, and the muting of empathy that can be brought about through media-particularly games. Art isn't good only for making you feel good and games aren't only valuable if "fun", and you get less value out of Undertale's narrative messaging if you neglect either major path from your reading of it.
Undertale is very effective at teaching us to consider how empathy and traditional game design can be at odds with each other, and how game design itself has many conventions which can be desensitizing and violent. It then invites us to attach and explore our own morality to these actions through creating a simulacrum of two key things: characters and betrayal/evil actions. You're supposed to feel bad playing the genocide route, but the lesson you're supposed to draw from it isn't that you shouldn't play it, but rather why do you feel bad about it? What is different about this experience? Why is the process of humanizing these characters so devastating when you then play the game, like a more traditional game?
I think it's important to note that Undertale doesn't allow the viewer moral or interpretive superiority in it's text for not personally playing the genocide route. Sans clearly scolds those who experience his boss battle through watching other people play it or vicariously experiencing it in another method. If that was to be considered, than the only 'moral'-or even 'intentional' way to learn and experience the messages you pull discouraging playing it would be to never be aware of it, to completely ignore it's existence and to not experience any of it's content. And the game does actively encourage you to experience the route. It does so both by using gameplay conventions (undyne the undying and sans are regarded as the most impressive bosses to beat in the game, and from the humor, to the psychological unease, to the mystery, to the music the sans battle in particular is considered in many ways the final climax and reward of the game). Not to mention the action's of sans, flowey, and the game itself making the mystery intentionally enticing. Your player name, you learn at the end of the pacifist run, applies to the first fallen human, yes, but through out the genocide play through, that entity-the one most aligned as you the player-becomes the player character again, fully possessing and overwriting frisk. You have to play undertale as a traditional RPG to actually become the true player of the game, and to become the true player of the game, as with many, many other games, you have to abandon traditional morality, and your investment in the characters, and start treating them as obstacles instead of "people."
That seems thematically important to me.
You took the time to write all that. Like dude its like ur writing an essay and it hardly got any likes.
@@kleptonova yea. It maked you aware that they have lives too, even if they arent real
I also think genocide shouldn’t be neglected
ShinyEevee _Plays don’t be a dick. They made some very good points, and the points they make aren’t in any way invalidated because the comment flew somewhat under the radar.
@@Vgamer311 they aren't saying they're invalidated, they're just pitying them because they took so much time to write a comment while only get a few hundred likes
I played this game through one week staying home from school because I had one of the biggest fevers I'd had, it was really weird but as I played true pacifist I felt like everyone was my friend kinda. the memories of playing it will always stay with me
Pretty much the same, although I'm the teacher... lol.
@@quasiotter oh thats wonderful! have you told any of your students about the experience
RedRhett This damn game is always going to be remembered in my heart, and soul.
@@ocularorb4021 Yeah! I also bought the soundtrack and played it during their work time and they loved it. Was great to bond. Thanks(:
@@quasiotter aww you're a lovely teacher
Thank you. Stories are the most plentiful source of inert power for me and this was a beautiful way for me to think more about why that is, and why Undertale might have meant so much to me even though a lot of it on paper doesn't seem like it would get me. It did because I gave it a chance. I could give it a chance because I really needed to have the experience it gave me at that point in my life. I don't know if I think Undertale could teach people how to learn from stories and others, and it instead seems in practice to be a test of these abilities with sometimes chilling results. But I think you're right in saying that once we are capable of hearing and thinking about them, stories, because of the experiences we have through them, are the key to change.
"The skeli-bros are basically harmelss"
Sans would like to give you a bad time
The biggest nightmare can be disbelief Papyrus
everyone on the genocide route:
Me on my fifth attempt trying to get past papyrus without killing him:
Russell Midgley Actually Sans is only powerful if you gain karma that’s why he’s such a problem because if you fought him level 1 he wouldn’t do anything he is the weakest enemy in the game, karma just carries him and makes him a big challenge.
@Noah zzstu Smith what do you mean
@@joshshrum2764 there was never any confirmation that sans ignores invincibility frames because of karma
OK
To be fair to MatPat
A lot of his best content (at least back when I watched him more) isn't, or at least wasn't, about finding the true narrative meaning of games. He doesn't ask "what inspired ocarina of time and why is Link's changes between a child and adult important to the story?" He asks how strong link is given the fact that he can use the hookshot. He doesn't look at the quality of Disney stories over time, he finds the Disney kill count. MatPat doesn't look at the narrative threads of a game unless he's trying to tie unrelated bits and bobs together. (think "Sans is Ness") He made a video about Mario's height, and you're disappointed by the fact that he hasn't talked about the cohesive vision Toby Fox had while making Undertale? Game theory is about overanalyzing the minute, unimportant aspects of the game. There are only three times when he's even successfully touched on the narrative of the games he discusses: the Mario timeline, the Zelda timeline, and the FNAF timeline. And lo and behold: the connections he made between those games came from overanalyzing the minute, unimportant aspects of the game.
Now, would it be cool if he, being a popular RUclipsr, gave a shoutout to the people, like you, doing narrative analysis? Yes, it would. But should he be doing that himself, or should we be disappointed that he isn't doing that style? No. Of course not.
This is amazing. People here had a positive conversation.
Or at least, or at least, or at least
Yes! Thank you so much for this! I felt that his criticism of MatPat’s Undertale videos were unwarranted.
Wow, you took that joke really seriously huh?
I just finished replaying Undertale - literally, just this morning - and this appears in my feed. Did you read my mind, Adam?
Yes. I know what you did.
Run.
I wonder if Undertale and Deltarune have the 'determination' to turn everyone in the Middle-East into Atheists?
Slow down there, @@christiandauz3742. See if it can turn everyone in America first. One step at a time.
@@christiandauz3742 considering it's a narrative about peace and acceptance... No, I don't think the game would hate brown people like you do.
You think you're safe?
*hand reaches through screen*
An interesting video, with a lot of good insights, but I had a very different reading of this game, and I feel like you've missed the essential point.
Undertale is about redemption. The description of monsters as "monsters" is not an accident. Even Toriel has monstrous qualities. The NPCs are representations of the monsters you meet every day: the possessive mothers; the insensitive comedians; the divas who aren't afraid to stomp on a few faces to climb to the top. It asks you to make a real moral choice about how you will deal with them.
The intro with Flowey sets the tone: it lulls you into a false sense of childish nostalgia before shattering it with real drama. Undertale repeatedly uses this effect to generate genuine horror in the player. After Flowey, all the funny references and fourth wall breaking in the world shouldn't convince you to let your guard down: you, as a human being, are being tested. The ironic tropes are only there to create contrast, to allow the horror to stand out. If you kill e.g. Toriel, or Undyne -- as I did -- then you can see the game take a sudden and unexpected turn, from funny memes to truly serious business.
In that sense, the metafictional aspects are absolutely not there to disincentivise immersion, they're there to increase it. Whenever the game gets serious, Toby Fox is grabbing you by the balls and, in a pleasant, buttery-smooth voice, saying you had better continue.
In a way, even the reveal of Frisk's true name during the "true" ending reminds the player that he or she was the one being tested, not the character on the screen. It is at the same time a dissociation from the game, a reminder that the player should go out and face the real-life monsters he or she may have been avoiding. To my knowledge, you actually cannot get the true ending on your first playthrough, even if you kill no one; you must face Omega Flowey and play through the game a second time to have access to the Alphys date, the lab, and the barrier break. I think Toby Fox expected most people to play Undertale with an honest emotional stance regarding the monsters they encountered, and it was fans who somewhat ruined the experience by rabidly insisting that no one should kill anyone, even on their first playthrough.
I think it is interesting how frankly saccharine the pacifist playthrough is, after you've experienced the true horror of a normal playthrough. You see Papyrus' comical text messages while being chased by Undyne, which might get a few cheap laughs, but you're also haunted by the horror of having killed her, and the way those text messages took an entirely different character in that context. The lab is there to remind you that the horror you experienced was real, despite the context of what you're experiencing as a pacifist. Like Frisk's naming, the pacifist playthrough is also there to disassociate you from the game, in a way, and to remind you that there is still real horror in the world, while still -- at the end -- giving you some narrative closure. To remind you that sometimes, you might have to fight a real monster.
For the record, I am still literally too scared to play the genocide route. I'm aware that it reveals backstory and other information that cannot be seen in a normal or pacifistic playthrough -- which I think also needs to be taken into account, and which your analysis has essentially ignored -- but I cannot do it, because of the degree to which the game immersed me in its narrative. Undertale is a horror game, disguised as a fun and nostalgic RPG. I think it is the only game I have ever seen that is probably safe for children, but can also scare the shit out of grown adults.
Jesus Christ just make a book man I'd buy it
This is one of the longest comments I've ever read... And I want more
@@NotASpyReally I did a longer comment, but idk if you'd like it.
@@thevoidismyhome7242 If there was an option, I would search it. But there isn't any easy way to find it :/
It would be nice if RUclips had a searchbar for the comment sections.
@@NotASpyReally yeah. That'd be cool
Tbh genocide route was my favorite. It completely shifted the tone of game and made you truly think about what you were doing, it made me feel really bad but that is what pushed me forward, because few games really made you FEEL
Eliejah Aragon And we can’t forget it has the best fights and battle themes, like Battle Against A True Hero, Megalovania. Also yeah the Undyne The Undying form is just the most metal thing in Undertale besides God Of Hyperdeath Asriel.
The Genocide Route isn't the most logical route to play, but rather a key part of the message of Undertale by showing the complete opposite of that message.
well adam, I'm happy you put so much time into it. my personal reason as an undertale creator is my own, because it's precisely because it caused me to be introspective and just love to explore the music to this day, because the music is helping me explore myself. anyway off to play the genocide route, have a great day. ^^
o
TEMEEEEE!
Also, the wall paintings never said no humans were killed in the War. It said that "no Human souls were taken." Humans started the war (according to the Monsters) specifically because of the Monsters' ability to absorb Human souls. Therefore, it's highly likely that even when a Human WAS killed in battle, his squadmates jumped in to prevent any Monsters from completing the absorption process.
11:23
I found out that I’d you don’t flirt with Papyrus in the battle, instead of a dating sim part, you do a ‘Becoming Best Friends’ sim part
I think leaving out the genocide route is a mistake.
At it's core, the story of Undertale is about empathy, the lack of such, and perseverance. And (as I've now learned from watching this video) personal growth, and it's value and importance.
And while you only get to experience first hand the story surrounding lack of empathy, and the toughest bits of perseverance in the genocide run... (Your own perseverance in going through the grinding and the tough-as-nails boss fights, and that of Sans and Undyne and their efforts to stop you).
The real importance of it is in the greater narrative Undertale tells through your entire time with the game.
While each playthrough, and your actions within it, tell a story which touches in on those themes, it's only when you put all of those playthroughs. All of them. together that the full story is told.
The meta-story Undertale tells is about omnipotence, the ethics surrounding omnipotence and what it means for those directly below the top level of power.
And while that story is touched on throughout by Flowey's interactions, particularily in the ending. It's fairly incomplete without the genocide run.
That doesn't mean it's wrong to skip the genocide run, It doesn't mean it's wrong to watch someone else go through it rather than play it yourself (even if Flowey calls you out for it).
But I think it's as important to the overall story of the game as the pacifist+ ending is. And I don't think 'it makes me a better person because I understood the game's message" is a good reason for skipping it.
There's more to the genocide run than the obvious low-hanging metaphors you can lift from it (like how killing is bad and killing people will irrevocably destroy your potential for a happy ending). The most inspiring moments in the game is found there and every single one of the kinda goofy and dysfunctional characters you interact with on the other routes are here genuinely heroic, even if in the end it doesn't work... On the other hand, maybe you don't play through it because you can't bring yourself to kill Papyrus, which is another great experience you can only have if you partake in that particular part of the game.
Thanks for a great video.
Us big brains (sorry for lame forced inclusion) always show up late and no one is left to notice what we have to say lol. Either that or the fact that we spent all of our current and past attribute points into wisdom/intelligence instead of charisma doesn't help either. ecksdee
I still believe that the emphasis the game purposely places on the word *determination* with bold letters and both hopeful and scary moments (such as true lab and undying undyne) gravitates, again purposefully, to the real message and "point" of the game. I think it wants to show how people can be put on two scales, as you said- I highly agree with you, Perseverance(determination) and Morality(can be empathy but there are drastic and standard cases where they both exist as separates). In knowing these 2 of another person you can depict a large sum of their likely potentiality, but also in knowing the two, you can change other people and yourself along the scales. If you have the right amount, you can truly contend for whichever goal you wish, even if that goal _requires) having both only moderate determination and morality.: for instance doing an almost genocide-ish routing but only saving Paparyus of the named bosses with some other unique optionals to have him the leader of the Underground specifically(albeit maybe a worse leader than the dog, which would may be quite normal for how human nature can be hahaha).
Also notable in my opinion is that the Genocide route shows a different side of fhe nature of the Monsters. When *you* are the true monster, something odd happens. Eventually certain Monsters who would otherwise be stuck in a certain stagnation or flawed mindset see things clearly.
Undyne all of a sudden has a realization who the real enemy is. She starts fighting not only for Monsterkind, but Humankind as well. She manages to harness the power of Determination, if only for a short time. She breaks her own limits to be a true hero.
Mettaton puts aside his own dreams and aspirations and even sacrifices himself for the greater good. Mettaton, undoubtedly the character most practiced in being unapologetically self-centered, makes the ultimate sacrifice without hesitation.
Sans, whose seeming laziness may very well hide a deeper depression and nihilism, breaks free of his stagnation and fights, even though he knows it may be an impossible battle. That it *is* an impossible battle. Because he hopes to change your mind.
These three in particular show an interesting facet of their beings that otherwise we'd never see. That even if you never change her mind like in the Pacifist run, Undyne still has the heart of a hero, she's simply misguided until she sees some proof of the truth - whether that be you proving you're not a threat, or proving that you're a monster far beyond what any other Human is.
Mettaton sacrifices everything. Even if he never comes to terms with his escapism, it shows that appearances can be deceiving and he's always wanted to help people in some way. And he always tries to in the greatest way he can - whether it be putting a smile on peoples' faces, trying to help free the Underground, or sacrificing himself for the safety of all Monsterkind.
And Sans shows his true depth only here. His commitment to his promises as he still tries to pull you back from this dark path. His love for his brother and his confliction as he both obviously wants to avenge Papyrus, but also decides to honor his brother by beliving in you. And the source of his seeming laziness in the first place, the fact that he knows he's not in control of his life, that you could simply RESET whenever you want and they're all along for the ride.
In a dark irony, the Genocide path in some ways shows the true depth of peoples' inherent goodness. Not yours, but theirs. In the Pacifist run, you have to change them, but in this run, *they* change *themselves.* Pacifist is all well and good but maybe one lesson to be had from the Genocide route is that you aren't always the main character of life. Heck, you aren't always the hero. You don't have to be the villain either, but more importantly you don't have to be the one that changes people, fixes people. But your impact on people does matter regardless. And hey, maybe sometimes *you're* the broken one, in need of a Sans to try to save *you.*
@@vision4860 Great comment! Also about Sans trying to save you until the last, isn't it also because of his promise to Toriel?
I probably missed it, what does Flowey say about knowing you've looked up the geno route before?
the WHAT is about empathy????
I feel this video does a massive disservice to the Geno-Route. For me, UT's narrative isn't complete without it; The hardest-hitting moments that make you reflect on the tyranny inherent to the role of player and what drives people to be completionists in the first place. I was originally motivated by spite at the pacifist route's ending's emotionally manipulative request to not be played again, but these days I think the game was actually successful at goading me. Genocide DOES want to played, its just the video game equivalent of anti-comedy. It juxtaposes things to typically complete games for(optional bosses, missing lore) with monotony and bleak emptiness to make us introspective on why we are going through with it to begin with, how we view games as toys to be fully consumed and then thrown away, and whether its worth it at all. But because you "can", you "have to", after all.
Lastly, the sans fight is still the best part of the game. I'd go as far as saying the whole rest of the game was just an elaborate way to set up context for it.(Hyperbole, but still.)
I strongly disagree. There is quite a bit to be said about Genocide, but that Undertale's narrative isn't complete without it, that Genocide is *the point,* I feel completely misses everything the game is about. Genocide exists to not be played. It does everything in its power to convince you to stop. If there's anything about it that would make the narrative as a whole more complete it would be starting a Genocide run, going part way through, and then deciding not to finish it.
I didn't mean to imply that Genocide was the game's point. I just think this video was very dismissive of the route's value to UT as a piece. There being legitimate reasons to and not to play it are what give it value to me in the first place; It comes as close to having "real" consequences as a game can get, and I find that fascinating. The psychological effect it has is one of UT's more unique artistic statements. Of course I respect someone's decision to not play it, because its actually a meaningful choice, something rare in the video-game sphere.
sans entire character arc(Probably the most conceptually interesting one) is left unfinished with some serious blanks unless one plays it as well, which I for one think is pretty damn important.
I agree that the Genocide route is an essential part of Undertale, and is perhaps even more important than the Pacifist route when it comes to driving home it's actual message. I wrote a lengthy comment on this, but without boring you with the entire thing, here are some of the most important points.
"Without the Genocide route, it is very easy to take the Pacifist route for granted....However, it is the Genocide route that drives home the point of the game by making it all but impossible to ignore the subtexts of introspection... By playing the Pacifist route at face value, you pat yourself on the back for sticking to kindness and getting the good ending, but in the end, you are only kind within the game, kind of like how Alphys kept trying to convince herself she was a good person by creating fake dangerous scenarios she could save the player from. The Genocide route, however,... all but forces you to think about your motives."
Genocide is NOT necessary. For example, I have NEVER played genocide. And I feel the narritive is complete.
@@ya-like-jazz false. Just plain false. Let me tell you something: GENOCIDE DOES NOT DRIVE HOME THE POINT OF THE GAME! GENOCIDE IS NOT THE POINT OF THE GAME! GENOCIDE IS COMPLETELY UNSECEARY!
This feels like a deeper, extended version of H.Bomberguy’s Undertale video, which I enjoyed a lot. And after seeing so much meaningless speculation on the game’s lore, surface-level themes, character analysis, shipping, etc, it’s so refreshing to see such a mature take on what Undertale can mean. This is by far my favorite video about this game, and maybe even one of my favorites on this site in general.
I think these themes are still pretty surface-level, but it doesn’t matter since they are analyzed well (except for the no-mercy route).
I've seen 8 minutes of this, and while I really want to keep watching, I haven't played Undertale yet (surprising I know) and don't want to spoil it. The video has been amazing so far, but I'll watch it in it's entirety when I play it. Once again you force me to play through something and draw my own conclusions of it before seeing one of your videos. Good job Adam.
How have you not played Undertale Alex!? Go play it!
Do play it, it's a fantastic game, even if one of the "routes" can be a bit tough
Every comment like this that I read warms my heart.
@@ArchitectofGames Sadly there's a lot of games I want to play but haven't had the time or money to play yet. Your videos just keep expanding that list. I'll get to it as quickly as possible!
@@SneakySnorunt I hope you have fun if you haven't finished it already.🙃
Undertale is about a kid named Ness who goes on an adventure with 3 other people to defeat Giygas
-1 HP for cringing
...Right?
Undertale is also about a man in a baseball uniform taking down 3 tyrants to murder his own wife and child and turn the world OFF. And a funky merchant.
Undertale is about a middle-aged man who travels across a wasteland with many other weird men to rescue his adopted daughter.
No that’s dark souls
Undertale is actually the reason why I fell in love with writing. I started writing dumb fanfics but now I'm on college to become a screenwriter
Hey, I'm a writer too! Good luck out there!
I'm not sure I'm comfortable with the implication that someone has engaged in some kind of grand moral failing for simple curiosity about the genocide route. Yeah, it's kind of a sick, twisted story to go through, but even sick, twisted stories can have some kind of effect on us for the better. That's the whole reason horror and thrillers are so prominent in film. You don't exactly go into Silence of the Lambs thinking "Gee willickers I'm sure looking forward to this splendid experience where I learn and grow". Is engaging with a story about a serial murderer/cannibal and a serial murderer/kidnapper/rapist some grand moral failing on the part of the viewer? Or is it an attempt to try and understand what could drive someone to this place? Sometimes, these things are useful because they allow us to really understand what kind of mental state someone needs to be in to go into this grand, moral failing, and it can help us avoid those pitfalls in the future.
In related news they're making a Ted Bundy movie. Pretty sure nobody is going to be rooting for the Ted Bundy character, but people are gonna watch that shit in spades.
Trouble in large numbers
I can tell this was ghost written by you, Sans.
I did the genocide route first it didn't taint my physical game (didn't have trouble with getting the other routes) I got for the Switch I'm actually glad I did the genocide route because it answers some questions in the other routes that would not be answered unless you play the genocide route.
i know this serious and all but
*geE wiLLicKErS*
Yeah this youtuber seems like the kind to say video games cause violence since he doesnt want to consider the begining of the plot, aka the genocide route.
Hell, The Brothers Grimm Fairy Tales were aesops and parables designed to teach various concepts and opinions in twisted ways, nothing like the cleaned up versions we get from Disney.
The mere inclusion of the genocide route begs players to experience it. I would argue an understanding of Undertale's "message" is quite incomplete without it.
The inclusion gives the player the opportunity to experience it, but it seems that the game itself is begging you to not experience it with every drop of sweat in its body. The player will usually go through it after having established an emotional bond with the monsters after the pacifist ending. The details of how to initiate a genocide run are not clarified very well by the game. Killing all of the monsters gets tedious very quickly as the encounter rate decreases. Increasing LV isn't made very exciting. The music stops being all that good. The two boss-fights that are different from the normal game are made deliberately tedious, clunky and not very fun.
I agree very much, however, that the genocide route is a core part of the message of Undertale, but part of that message is most certainly that you're not actually supposed to play the genocide route, which is beyond a doubt one of the most unique narrative techniques i've ever seen in a game, or in any medium for that matter.
@@echoambiance4470 The Genocide Route only exists because you "can", and because you "can", you "must". it's a character study on the people playing or researching it, they're willing to kill all their favourite characters and destroy this world just because they "can", the characters tell you how much it hurts, the game tries to scare you out of it, you're even warned that it will have consequences.
@@echoambiance4470 NGL i REALLY like the sans and undyne genocide fight
To me, the genocide route is like the video said, how you discard everything you have learned form the game and refused to move on just to find something that can satisfy you in the game. you no longer care about the stories, their character, ect. they're just some number and pixel on your screen that you can easily get rid of, like how you instantly kill every boss with just one hit and destroy the whole world just because you can. In a way, it make what Undyne said about if you get pass her, the whole world will end (with the chara(cter) completly erase the game) by reject everything you have learned form Undertale, the whole world feel dead and it will be gone soon. Papyrus know this and he knew he can't beat you so he tried to convince you with word but he failed. Then Undyne tried to fight back with everything she could possibly have but can' do it either. Mettaton tried to do the same thing but it's nothing but a flashy level up. The only thing it can do it try to break the fourth fall and make you rage quit with sans's boss fight which you have to go out of your way to defeat and what's the reward? some little info form sans but that's basicly it. After that flowey or Asgore is just nothing left to you and the same as this world. You have done everything you can and just move on already. Even if you tried to go back and do the happy ending, do you really can feel the same way as before knowing how far you have go just because you can? that's why chara tainted your save file forever because you have tainted you experience with the game forever.
Imma just eat a popcorn here
i always felt like undertale had this slightly hidden message with sans. Although he is the weakest enemy in the game the fact that you killed all his friends fills him with the determination to do what's right same with undyne
Its accually cuz of karma in the fight look at your hp bar it says "kr"His attacks deal 1 dmg but the karma deals the extra dmg in the form of posion effect I don't think sans has determantion
SolidCake I think the most depressing thing about the genocide route is that nobody can defeat you even if they try there hardest none of them can rival your determination.
Josh Shrum it’s beautiful
... no, he doens't have determination
28:46 god damn
Those folders
They’re
“Porn(work)” and “work(porn)” and it just cracked me up
I DIDN'T NOTICE THAT
OH MY GOD
AHAHAH
Lol Mark Brown Blackmail
i just have one thing to say.
nice
Alphys is a pretty spot on representation of the undertale demographic - "Suffers from anxiety, difficulty talking to people, as well as a lack of self esteem"
Oof
and narrow minded unless a third party is involved.
and thats why you gotta join the military, you can overcome all these things by doing so
@@LeiteArts10 The military robs you of thinking on your own and instead wants you to follow orders given without any question or objection. It makes you numb to violence and punishes you for actual socialy good behaviour. ...doesn't sound like a good offer.
@@Lugmillord and punishes you for actual socially good behaviour? And how do you know that? What would the military gain by having psychopaths? I'm not even sure how you draw that conclusion, did you have a bad experience with one of them? Or are they just generally like that?
“ALLOWING HIM TO ASCEND TO HIS TRUE FORM-“ * ad break * “WAWA HAS YOU COVERED•
Embracing the Genocide route is indeed embracing aspects of Flowey - but this doesn't have to be about refusing to learn or look inward. It's also embracing curiosity and discovery, or the desire to understand exactly how things work.
The entire game (including Genocide) features tons of things you'll only see if you're actively curious enough to find them. E.g., the only way to learn why Alphys' escape plan failed in the Geno route is to listen to Muffet instead of killing her right away.
Also the Sans fight is one of the best bosses I've ever played. There's a reason its so famous. I did Genocide just to fight him, and hey, I got more lore along the way.
"buy youtube subscribers"
"how to abuse youtube fame"
"local cocaine dealers"
bless this man
“Waterfall is probably the least interesting area in the game”
Temmie village: id have to disagree
Iliana All the area’s are great.
my employers... dis-agree...
The area had the best theming and sprite art in the entire game.
*43:55** Hollow, frustrating and pointless experience?*
Come on, Adam, genocide route was the best part of the game! Sans and Flowey reveal their real selves and fool players into believing (for a moment, at least) that all those pixel characters have a mind of their own. Genocide adds depth to the setting, breaks the 4th wall completely and makes a great illusion, that you're actually dealing with some sort of AI who have feelings and wishes. AI with an ability to suffer and beg for peace. That's freaking awesome!
It's a great meta experience, dude. The game does not lock you inside fictional world, it lets you go beyond it and discover something else out there. And that's really something. No game has ever done it so well and clever.
This is a great video that I thoroughly enjoyed but when it comes to your view of what the game is, I have to disagree and I will explain why. People take the genocide route of the game to learn more about the game and the lore surrounding it and because of that, get a different perspective on the game itself. I don't think that by taking the genocide route you are "unlearning" what you have learned about yourself and I don't think that people dissecting the games world or the game itself is a disservice to what the game it about. You can enjoy a game's message and learn about yourself from it without sacrificing an appreciation of the game from a critical point of view or learning about the different aspects of a character and the world they inhabit. A piece of media such as Star Wars has a great narrative about redemption and hope but also has crafted an amazing universe that all feels connected and real and on top of that, has great cinematography and acting. You don't have to choose one aspect of a work of art or the other to enjoy it. I do not think that making theories about Undertale or analysing every aspect of a character from it is "missing the point completely" and that indulging in one part of the game while not focusing on another is completely fine. After all, no matter how great or self-aware a game is, it is still just a game and resetting a save file to try something else is hurting no one.
If you found my post enlighening or if you disagree with me, a reply would be appreciated
plus there are several very good moments in the genocide run. its the best game I've played where you are the Villon becose it's not what your supposed to do and every action is a conscious choice. that and when undine stands back up is one of my favorite acts of tragic defiance i've seen in a hero but that's just me i like last stands and that was a good one.
I agree that the Genocide route is an essential part of Undertale, and is perhaps even more important than the Pacifist route when it comes to driving home it's actual message. I wrote a lengthy comment on this, but without boring you with the entire thing, here are some of the most important points.
"Without the Genocide route, it is very easy to take the Pacifist route for granted....However, it is the Genocide route that drives home the point of the game by making it all but impossible to ignore the subtexts of introspection... By playing the Pacifist route at face value, you pat yourself on the back for sticking to kindness and getting the good ending, but in the end, you are only kind _within the game,_ kind of like how Alphys kept trying to convince herself she was a good person by creating fake dangerous scenarios she could save the player from. The Genocide route, however,... all but forces you to think about your motives."
I agree with you but i think myself that what order you do the routes in matter. I believe the best order is doing pacifist and then Genocide since you learn more about yourself as a person and player and see more into the lore and understand more about the characters. Doing pacifist helps you learn about the characters and have you grow attached them. By doing the genocide route afterwards, it reminds you that it's stll just a game. It also helps you learn more about the characters and the lore. The second best way is to do pacifist, neatural and then Genocide since it helps you ease into killing monsters and the characters you grew to love. The worst way is genocide, neatural and then pacifist since it has a backwards effect. You still learn by doing it that way but it removes the point of growing attached to the characters and then killing them since you lose feeling for them since you've already killed them before.
I wholly agree with your point on a different perspective of the game. I have to admit that it took me some time, but I realized that no route or order of routes is better than another, and that each of them is an experience. I remember how GrandPooBear announced that he would not play the game again on RUclips since his speedrunner mentality and his interest for the No Mercy Run after his Neutral Run got him some slack in the comments. There are many scenes in Undertale that I would never have discovered if some let's players didn't accidentally kill this or that character, and, even though I personally wouldn't do it, it's perfectly acceptable to justify retaliating to the NPCs' attacks if you're having fun.
Furthermore, I know several people that have all but completed a Genocide Run just to get all the information they can before irrevocably changing their game state just to get all that information and reaffirm their opinions and feelings regarding the characters and their encounters.
It's interesting to note the question Asriel poses to you in dialogue at the end of the game: why would you climb a mountain that no one ever returns from?
There are few experiences that make me wish I could forget everything and do it again an experience it all for the first time again, but Undertale is certainly one of those. A 10/10 game for me
I relate to this, but perhaps that's part of the trap this interpretation of the game warns about, getting stuck in the past and being unable to move past it. When I played Dark Souls for the first time, it irrevocably changed my attitudes towards video games, and honestly, it got really hard to play games without comparing it to DS. 'This isn't as fair as DS, the challenge is artificial', 'The gameplay and story are more segregated than DS', things like that. I essentially ruined gaming for myself by developing nostalgia for a game i'd just beaten! I got so wrapped up in the experience of both Undertale and Dark Souls that I longed to experience it again the first time, even vicariously via Lets Play content, instead of actually allowing myself to enjoy newer experiences. This isn't really even a unique problem for me, as I find it exceedingly easy to latch on to those golden experiences and chase them like a drug high instead of allowing myself to experience smaller moments. That's part of why I like this interpretation of Undertale, because it's a sort of condemnation I probably need to hear.
@@GhostedJackal There's nothing wrong with being attached to older games. Hell, some games want to be replayed. Undertale doesn't want you to replay it, but it also happens to be incredibly re-playable and interesting to explore all the different outcomes.
I mean, speedrunning is a thing, which is pretty much the extreme example of replaying a game.
I'm not "stuck" in the past just because I replay Unreal 1 (my favorite game of all time) semi-often. If that was the case, I'd be a manchild. (been playing it since I was a toddler). Keep in mind, my love for Unreal hasn't stopped me from playing new games, and it hasn't stopped me from questioning my beliefs. I changed, but I just brought Unreal with me. Its just always been there.
See, the thing that will always separate all of us from Flowey, is that he's stuck. He was trapped in the underground no matter what he did. It's almost understandable that he expunged all possible outcomes and endings from his time there. It was his only "game" so to speak.
We, however, are not trapped in the underground. We can leave once the deed is done. Its part of why I think Chara is who you name when you initially boot up the game and not Frisk. Like Chara, we left once we were done with its world and characters. We moved on to the next. Flowey/Asriel was stuck in the underground, and stayed behind.
I don't regret doing a genocide run, I had my reasons. (namely LORE and fighting Sans/Undyne). That doesn't make me a good person/bad person, but I didn't need that. Undertale still made me feel things and rethink everything I ever concieved about games, and I think that was its intention. At the end of the day, it's an experience. What we take away from it is up to us.
I'll have to disagree. For me, the genocide run was an essential part of the game.
Papyrus staying behind even though he knows he can't fight and Undyne doing the impossible, coming back to life to delay you just a bit longer were the moments that really moved me, while the pacifist route constantly hammered home that others will help you solve your problems, you just have to wait for a kind-hearted soul.
Maybe you are right. Maybe I did not learn anything from first two times I played through this game. But I still firmly hold that destroying the universe at the end of the genocide run was the right choice for me to make and that *that* playthrough was, for me at least, the place to learn something about myself.
.... if destroying the world was the RIGHT CHOICE for you and you learned something about yourself from that experience.... well I guess you're Hitler then.
@@SGresponse Let me put it this way then: The story in which the world was destroyed was the one that could teach me something, thus experiencing the story in which the world was destroyed was the right thing for me to do.
It does not mean that I identify with Chara. I don't think they have a personality to identify with. Controlling them is a neccessity from the core conceit of the story. Playing the bad guy is the only way to "win", or rather complete, a story about everyone losing. The struggle against the inevitable becomes meaningless when you are forced to lose.
"Maybe you are right. Maybe I did not learn anything from first two times I played through this game." Hardly. I think Adam's opinion here is, ironically, naive and also slightly hypocritical. He's revealed that he has knowledge of the genocidal route, which means he consciously sought it out. If he did so without playing himself, it just means he relied on others to do the dirty work for him.
There's a lot of very innovative and interesting things coming out of the genocide run, from a game mechanics and storytelling perspective. For one, it adapts to the playstyle being exhibited. There are some people who don't really care about the lore of a game and focus just on the fighting. In the genocide run, it lines up exactly to do that - the time consuming puzzles are removed and the player is left with just the fighting. Even the number of enemies left to maximize your level are told to the player.
From a meta-narrative perspective, the player becomes the villain in the story while Undyne and Sans become the heroes. From a character development perspective, we see that Sans isn't just some pushover character making false threats - he has the power to follow up on them, and consciously chooses a life of non-violence unless he is absolutely forced to take action. Here, we also see a caution about the dangers of being too passive. If Sans had struck much earlier, rather than waiting for the player to become max level, he may have been able to stop the player. You see him lament as such in the epilogues of many of the "neutral" endings that involved a lot of killing.
Then there is also the innovativeness of extending Sans' ability to attack to the menu screen, and how you have to dodge his bones while selecting what you will do with your turn. There is so much depth to the genocide run. I think dismissing it as "something the designer didn't actually want you to play" is naive.
I'm sure there's got to a can of worms to unravel as the genocide run can be alured to either by ignoring the message the game tries to teach you (Adam's reason) or morbid curiosity. Further answers to the lore, characters, the world, all while game tries to discourage you. Determination itself can be both a positive and negative force, allowing you to right wrongs or destroy the world for your selfish interests.
Even so, I don't discredit the work Adam took to dysect the pasifist route, albeit the more advertised and popular run of the game (the route that subverts typical rpgs). I never played it, but from what I watched and how Adam so thoroughly placed through a lens of "growth" or "the ability (and willing) to change ones ideas, opinions, and prejudices; I'd say he put into words what hours of my attention to other's experiences of Undertale could not.
I have to agree. Even excluding the clever meta twists etc., awesome music etc in this route I'd say the genocide route was the one that taught me the most about myself and should not be dismissed. For one, it taught me a lot about how I consume media and video games (being kind of a completionist wanting to see all content available). Plus, being a rather pacifist "let's all get along" kind of person in real life (and in games as well. my first run through undertale blind I gained zero exp) it made me feel a lot of emotions I usually try to avoid, esp. guilt and regret, in kind of a safe way which was very powerful and an opportunity to learn about myself for me.
this is one of my favorite videos ever, thank you from helping me depart myself from obsessing over the lore of undertale :)
i love how undertale uses puns and gives double meanings to the words you encounter in any game or rpg. the level ups and hp and all but also the fact that you can use your "time powers" to /save/ a character and such
After all these years, I thought I had overcome the chills and feels about Undertale... But this video reminded me about everything, the pacifist run, genocide, all the characters, the True Lab... ;-;
* _War flashbacks about _*_His Theme_*_ Intensifies_ *
I heard in another video like this that Sans acts as the player's moral compass. After first meeting him, in the pacifist route he's playing with you, having lots of fun and being a nice chill guy. He keeps an eye on you and gives you a helping hand every now and then. In the neutral route you don't see him too much, he's more like a shadow you think is watching you and doesn't really interact with you, especially if you've killed papyrus. In genocide, he wants nothing to do with you. Until the very end where HE confronts YOU and tries to make you feel bad at all the evil you've done. You could say his boss fight is so hard because he wants YOU the player to quit the game. This way you'll spare what little monsters are left. After hearing this, I really started looking at, at least Sans, differently. And I am very glad about that. It's amazing how such a little game can make a huge impact on people.
Doesn't not closely listening to what the gen route has to say kinda go against your point made on the mad dummy fight? If the problem is that the dummy refuses to listen to you, why would you not listen to what the gen route has to say? One may or may not like it or what it says, but it still has something to say, which we might be able to learn from. We won't know whether there is something to learn unless we listen and determine that for ourselves.
There's a really interesting scociopolitical theory about that exact problem that I cut talking about- it's called the paradox of tolerance. A guy called Karl Popper said that a truly free society that accepts everyone must reject one thing- intolerance itself. He was talking about how giving Nazis a platform allowed them to turn everyone against eachother, but the same works here.
The Genocide route can be learned from, but it shouldn't be emulated, that's why the game gives you so many opportunities to back out and realise this is the wrong way to do things, and only people who have totally cut themselves off from the game ever get to the end- nullifying any potential utility the genocide route may have had for them anyway.
Hope that clears things up!
@@ArchitectofGames pacifism let the nazis get momentum with horrid success.
That's why the true ending route makes a point of showing us that some bad guys just can't be redeemed and it's not worth trying see: flowey/asriel, the mad dummy, debatably Asgore, ect. Asriel even tells you at the end to keep an eye out for "floweys" on the surface.
@@ArchitectofGames I'm familiar with the concept of the paradox of tolerance, even though I was unaware that it was originally proposed as an argument for deplatforming Nazis. I would actually be opposed to this solution to the paradox. I'd argue naziism must activeley be opposed by arguing against it, not simply silencing it. Silencing them doesn't make them disappear, it just puts them in a bubble together with others like them, where they can further radicalize each other. I suppose that's a little off topic, so I'll proceed to your next point.
You just claimed that it can be learned from, but by trying to do so you distance yourself from what is happening, so you can't learn from it. That doesn't really make sense. Why shouldn't it be emulated? Emulation is precisely where something like the gen route should be experienced. A playground where you can't hurt any other real people. If not in emulation how do you think the gen route can be learned from? Also I'm not convinced that anyone who finishes cuts themselves off completley. Yes during the more frustrating parts like fighting sans over and over, you don't generally think about what you are doing right that moment, but as soon as you get past it, it is quite possible to fall back into the game. I am basically talking about the 'YES! ... Oh no' kinda moment. It is also quite possible to stay in the game all the way through, for example through rationalization.
Well not exactly. The mad dummy can be saved in the switch version, you do save Asgor in the true pacifist route, as you said this is debateable. I'd argue that it's not that 'some bad guys just can't be redeemed', but rather it's that you can't neccecarily force them to redeem themselves. Deltarune actually makes your point with the king, but neither of the games makes the case that you should not engage them or not try to redeem them. You don't know whether you can help them be redeemed unless you try. Besides redemtion isn't even the only potential positive outcome of engaging with them. You engaging with them might lead to you learning something or it might have a positive impact on someone else, for example again in deltarune Kris and Susie grow closer thanks to them trying.
@@ArchitectofGames asriel after fighting the player gives up and destroys the barrier and thus redeemed, the mad dummy is someone with an unchanging world view, if you believe in true pacifism even if your getting killed thinking if you believe hard enough they will change well your dead no pass go don't collect $200, the game has a unchangeable world view of pacifism good violence evil if you won't fight for what you love it will be taken from you by someone who will fight for it, and the fact is you can't undo gen run but can undo true ending is telling you can't redeem yourself if you have done evil but you can turn evil even if you are a saint.
10:50 "The skelebros are basically harmless."
Sans: gaster blasts you
I feel like the long tediousness of Waterfall was there to give you a break from the absolute sensory overload and 4th Wall breaks piled onto you by the Ruins and Snowdin.
This was a very insightful and thoughtful analysis!
One thing that I always thought was a little incongruous with the point the game seems to try to make at the end about moving on was stuff like the FUN values. For those who don't know, during a given run of Undertale, there is a probability that one of several one-off, odd events can occur, ranging from getting a phone call in Snowden that turns into a musical gag to coming across strange, discolored versions of regular monsters from the game who have off-putting dialog that usually refers to a character named W.D. Gaster. These events triggered based on something called the FUN value, which was a variable hidden in Undertale's code.
The original version of the game set this value to be turned off/commented out of the code, but you could go into the files and enable it. Future versions enable this value by default. However, in both cases, the only thing that causes the FUN value to change beyond manually changing the code is to do a True Reset: get the Pacifist ending and then reset the game after Flowey/Asriel tells you not to. In this way, it seems almost like you're encouraged to replay the game multiple times.
This could just be Toby Fox outfitting the game with something to give to people who are bound to do multiple playthroughs, much like how different dialog options could be thought to incentivise multiple plays, or maybe it's an effort to engineer in a sort of weird, urban-legend ghost story similar to something like "fun is infinite". Maybe it was intended to goad some players into trying a Genocide route so that at least some people saw that ending.
I will say, though, that if you add in Asriel's post-boss fight dialog and the ambiguity of his final fate, it does seem like Toby Fox was trying to get people to play though multiple times, or in some way indicate that there might one day be more story to tell (I'm still banking on Deltarune being connected to Undertale beyond the little references and what might be meta-commentary on AUs). So, if the aim of the end of Undertale was to get you to put down the controller and walk away, some of these extra elements feel out of place.
This was a great vid! Deffo seems to make sense as the closest thing UT has to a unified theme. And I respect the decision not to go into a deep dive of the Geno run, cos as you say, cos it would mostly be talking about a miserable experience that actively does not want to be 'had'. (also it might add like 15 more mins to the video lol)
The genocide route is so, SO boring - that's half the reason I chose not to talk about it
Even Sans is designed to be more frustrating than fun.
Knowing that Adam will eventually understand the meaning of Undertale fills you with Determination.
Ok, I really wasn't on board with this to begin with... I did think there was a serious lack of discussion around this subject, but judging by the beginning, I felt you were going to assert your opinion as the be-all end-all solution; which I felt was missing the point of Undertale - but this was actually a very good video. I've thought a lot about the meaning of Undertale, but often I focus more on some parts than others, so I never really thought of it as the theme simply being self-growth... Well I half-knew it, but I never really put my finger on it. Undetale was definitely an important game for me, I'm 16 now, so I woulda 13 when I saw it. Being a fan of it through my early teenage years, it was basically the perfect time to see this game, right when I was being forced to go through some self-growth when I wasn't sure I wanted to; and also it kept me from becoming a moody edgelord. =P
I thought a lot about the pacifist ending, because I think that's the first time a happy ending really made me feel... Happy... Until then, when I saw a story's happy ending I just saw it as an obligatory condition being satisfied. It also felt extremely cheesy and unreal though, even for a game set in a fantasy setting so I wasn't sure what to make of it. Eventually I came to the realisation, that the pacifist ending is supposed to be cheesy and unrealistic. Technically, although unlikely, you could get through a theoretical real-life version of this situation pacifist most of the way without the power of saving and determination; excpet the pacifist ending, because that requires you to reset. It's locked out of reality, and the final battle is literally implied to take place in a dream. It's a dream we all work towards but cannot achieve without a miracle.
One topic I think this covers that you didn't touch upon is the idea of sacrifice though. The only way the happier endings can be achieved is through some sort of sacrifice. In Neutral, Asgore sacrifices himself so that you can move on with your life; and with there being so many neutral routes, they kinda represent normal people. Not evil people, but people who don't grow, who live off of the sacrifices of a few other people. For there to be change for the better, something has to be sacrificed. In the pacifist route, Asriel sacrifices his happiness for everyone else's; and in a sense, if you don't go back to do genocide, you do too by leaving your save... The way I see it - and this is becoming far more of a personal viewpoint - but I feel like in the real world, a lot of people believe in justice and karma, and I'm not sure that's the right way to look at it. If you live your life doing good deeds because you expect they will eventually either through luck or through some afterlife reward you, you're gonna be disappointed. The world doesn't get better when we're only mean to bad people and only good to good (this is not me trying to highroad you all though, of course there's people I can't stand and sometimes I still lose my temper with, I'm just stating the importance of trying to avoid that.), in fact the way i see it, the opposite is true, sadly. When you make sacrifices, it will likely be "evil" people that are the first to reap the rewards of them, even though they don't deserve them; but if sacrifices are not made the world never gets better. You aren't freed if Asgore doesn't give you his soul, and monsters aren't freed if you and Asriel can't let go.
Honestly, I want to talk more about this, especially the ideas of what creates and destroys emotional attatchment in the genocide route; with how being able to undo their actions turned Chara and Flowey into who they became, but I already know most people are tl;dr-ing this, and if I made a video, I already know I'd go into a rambling fit about every possible note and detail. So I'm just gonna end this here, and say thanks for the video. It's interesting to see another interpretation of the meanings of this game, especially because I initially really overlooked the importance of Alphys and Mettaton (Hotland is actually tied for my least favourite area of the game with Waterfall). While I think the take-away from this game is extremely personal and subjective, no matter what it is, it's something that should help the player grow as a person.
Having read your introspection, I agree with what you have mentioned! Justice and karma isn't really a realistic way of the world---most likely the idealistic. I didn't quite believe in justice and karma growing up as I lived relatively spoiled and drama-free. Even if I was sympathetic to others, I didn't know how it felt to take actions and sacrifices other people had to take and put effort into because I never really had to make those hard decisions. This was in high school for me so I was around your age except I never truly realized what you already do now =) And then I learned a few years afterwards when I entered college what emotional attachments, bonds with others, and making sacrifices truly felt like. I didn't play video games like these growing up so I didn't even realize how it would feel on a meta-textual level. It was a lot of growing up for me ;___;
I know your post is 10 months old but it was a joy to read about your ideas on this =)
Did the Genocide thing, fought Sans until it stopped making my heart race (which took many, many fights), and when I was done, I did one last playthrough. I couldn't do Pacifist anymore because of the Genocide tagging, so someone had to die. Just a random monster would be unsatisfying, unfitting, so I had to pick a named character to destroy in order to avoid the Frisk. Who would have the hardest time integrating into a modern human society?
My answer was Undyne, and my god, if you want to know heartstring-pulling, do you a search up of "killing undyne in a pacifist run" on RUclips," holy christ it is horrifying. The end-of-game text blurb said that all the monsters lost their zest and passion without Undyne, so that's an additional kick in the balls, but I fought Flowey-God and saved at the end and erased my desktop link to the game files. It's as good an ending as I could afford the story, and if I had to do it over again then the genocide-only fights were totally worth the heartache...and make of all that what you will.
26:48 is my favorite part of the game. I drop a male tear.
YEESH, that 1-frame flash of Chara's creepy face when Asriel asked to see it made me jump.
:)
Funny thing about well written literature, whether it be novels, movies, games, etc, they tend to lend themselves to many interpretations. More than one person can be right, and quite literally everyone could be wrong about one thing or another.
For me, Undertale is a game that challenges perceptions of the way I consume and interpret video game narratives. It challenged me to be more open. Both routes on the extreme ends of the spectrum invoke curiosity and push the player to achieve different kinds of mastery.
I grew up with Final Fantasies, Dragon Quests, Personas, Disgaeas, and Tales of games. Games simultaneously built from and shackled to the formulas and tropes they inspired. Undertale stands out as a powerful cultural piece because it posed the question to the player of whether or not the way you experienced those RPGs of yesteryear was as complete as you thought it was. And for me in particular, I found the question to be powerful, I'd even say life changing. Upon completing a Normal route gaining a few Lvls (I had to stop killing when I reached Papyrus, there was no chance of me killing him, he's too good for that) I knew full well that I wouldn't be able to pull off a genocide run. All of my old mainstays of butchering creatures to hit the level cap threatened my ability to see the story unfold in a way that felt fulfilling. I didn't WANT to be the destroyer of their world, and to me, that choice was meaningful.
That isn't to say I didn't scour the internet to see the Genocide route unfold though, the story is without question a three act play (Normal, Pacifist, Genocide, in that order) and I think you leave a lot of the narrative unexplored without the last act. But I found that experiencing the Genocide route as an observer was, for me, an even more impactful viewing of the narrative when Flowey cuts to the chase and calls out viewers of streams and youtube videos almost directly in his conversations in the player. I had at my screen a game that recognized and spoke to the experiences of gamers from all walks of life, from the most casual to the most hardcore, and that is without question a thing of magnificence. A younger me would have challenged the genocide route without hesitation, but we grow up, games grow up, and our literature grows with us. Toby Fox knew all of this, it's right here in his stories, and that's damn impressive.
Undertale is a well explored narrative experience. Kudos to you for coming up with this exploration of it, helped me get more of my thoughts on the game squared away too. Definitely looking forward to the completion of Deltarune!
34:38 Huh, you know, Asgore's sped up theme sounds pretty nice and peppy, that's kinda funny. I like it.
I'm glad other people really took to heart Flowey's message when you boot back up after completing a pacifist ending. When he told me that by resetting the game, I'm essentially becoming the game's villain, following the EXACT same path as Flowey did, it really stuck with me. I closed it back down and, despite having wanted to go back for fun a few times, I've resisted the urge to reset. The game really comes alive in how meta it is. I can think of the characters as living on in their happy ending to this day as long as my save file is still intact. To reset would feel gut-wrenching, as if I destroyed the lives of real people for my own enjoyment. That's why I just watched the genocide route on RUclips, AND EVEN THEN THE GAME STILL TALKED TO ME PERSONALLY. "At least we're better than those sickos who stand around and watch it happen... Those pathetic people that want to see it but are too weak to do it themselves. I bet someone like that is watching right now, aren't they...?" Even then, Undertale still convicted me of the wrongness of resetting, how the game's core moral philosophy actually has, at its heart, the principle of letting go.
I haven't stopped listening to Undertale music, playing it on piano, watching fan made media, and - yes, even some of those dreaded theory videos - since I played the game about a year ago. It sticks with you. But it's the fleeting nature of the game that really makes it special, just like with the game OneShot. The game isn't intended to be returned to; it exists, not as a game to return to again and again, but as an EXPERIENCE. Returning to any fun thing a second time is never quite as bright and fun and enjoyable; there's always a certain aura of "been there, done that" that only increases per repeated viewing. Undertale even taunts its most devoted fans with this; once the Pacifist route is done, repeated playthroughs only offer the TINIEST bit of new dialogue or story, almost as if to make fun of your unwillingness or inability to just MOVE ON. Sans' secret code word and double-secret code word (which turns out to actually be his triple-secret code word) which leads to an extremely tongue-in-cheek and anticlimactic secret room especially stand out as little jabs at the player for continuing to slog through repeated playthroughs to glean through the most obscure new options.
I'm not saying that Toby doesn't like his fans playing stuff again; the amount of cool once-in-ten-playthroughs events that happen now and again really show that the experience is designed to feel personalized, different, and fun every time. But, despite the fun of discovering new dialogue, witnessing characters grapple with this weird sense of having met you before, and uncovering tiny easter egg after tiny easter egg about W.D. Gaster, you're still filled with this uneasy foreboding, this GUILTY pleasure, filled with the knowledge of one thing: YOU SHOULDN'T BE HERE. It's for these reasons that Undertale is so iconic. I hate fandom gatekeeping, determining how the "TRUE" fans are and aren't, but it does make me wonder:
Are Undertale's true fans the ones who let go?
schizophrenic
I am 28 years old and Undertale is my favorite video game. I played Undertale 5 days after it was released; before all the memes and hubbub. This is the best analysis of it's themes I've seen so far. Thank you and well done.
Amazing video, glad I watched all the way through. Not sure if you'll see this considering how the video is almost a year old, but I can agree with you on everything you stated save for 2 topics:
1. I don't agree with your dismissal of the genocide route (see frøsti
's comment), but also...
2. 11:50 you can't just do Waterfall like that my man.
The atmosphere of that area IMO is one of the most unique in the game. It calm, tranquil, a nice mid-zone between Snowdin and Hotland, and perfectly combines Toby's amazing musical skills with his use of simplified yet powerful scenery and backgrounds. (Shout out to the cyan water room with the echo flowers especially, such a beautiful room.)
Waterfall, being one of the biggest zones in the game, is understandably quite a walk, but what makes it worth it is the amount of encounters and context for the world you find when passing through, so it surprised me when you mentioned there wasn't a lot to see. Waterfall is my main source of inspiration when making Undertale art.
I suppose it's subjective and everyone has a favorite zone. Not a huge deal to be fair. Still a great video, you have an excellent style of expressing your thoughts on the concepts of this game.
I feel I need to defend the people that did the Genoside route. I feel it is harder to learn directly from this route than the others, but it does teach you things you didn't know. Why are you hacking away even if it already way past fun? Why are you killing monsters when they are telling you to stop? If you can answer those questions, then you got more out of Undertale than if you didn't completed the Genoside route. It's not for everyone though.
I learned I like to complete things, and as soon as possible. Challenging, but fair fights make my blood boil. Also, I would kill 1000 imaginary creatures for a good soundtrack.
AND before anyone tells me I'm a murderer, something Undertale crearly tells you, is that it's a game. Having an unhealthy obsession possitive or negative is bad for you. The best thing is to know the difference between games and real life. This is a lesson I learned through my life.
Ica Rue
I am proud to say I did the genocide run and here’s why.
I knew about the Sans fight from the very beginning because I’m a person that doesn’t live under a rock. While playing through Undertale normally enjoying it for its Earthboundish humor and story, I only ever died twice, once to Muffet and once to Asgore. Now I feel that I should say that I’m a person that actually has fun with Dark Souls games so I was looking for something harder to do. So I went and did it, I went through the brutal hours of slaying monsters to get to the Sans battle and it did not disappoint. I lost to him 12 times but it never felt like a cheap unfair loss. Sans fights just like a Dark Souls boss, he is extremely difficult to face, but time and perseverance (and insatiable bloodlust) eventually saw his fall. From there, I reset the game and uninstalled it from my PS4 never to be opened again.
Oh my god, 46 minutes of Undertale! I loved this video, it's a very interesting reading that I think I was aware of but I hadn't put it into words.
Undertale is a really special game for me because prior to that game I've played very sporadically, and three years after that I just purchased a gaming laptop. I've decided that I want to contribute to this industry, and so I've decided what I wanted to do with my life: translating videogames.
Thank you! Translation allows more people to enjoy the wonder and depth of video games.
The last bit past 41:00 especially was excellent, great input about moving on / seeing more in the world. Made me realize how touching this game really is
You CAN skip the date with papyrus by sparing instead of flirting...
You get a hangout instead
I agree that True Pacifist is the game's most fulfilling ending, and the game can easily end there. However, I don't think Genocide undoes the learning from the main game, just takes it down a different path. Having the willingness to detach from the story's characters and moral backbone purely for completion's sake definitely teaches you something about yourself. The route is the concept of LOVE expressed through gameplay with how soulless and empty the player feels, as well as the concept of DETERMINATION with the persistence necessary to complete the playthrough without doing any of the very simple tasks that let you leave the route entirely.
One of the best moments in the Genocide route is Flowey's discussion with you on the path to Asgore. The one where he hammers home that yes, you have discarded the lessons Undertale has taught you, all its attempts to immerse you and get you to care for its characters in favor of being a gamer who only sees this as a game to push the limits of and nothing more. Despite that being in line with your conclusion, I find that to be one of the biggest lessons of all - that stories are more fulfilling when you engage with them on their own terms rather than try to explore every path, nitpick every plothole, save and reset to see everything, dissect the story into its base components. With moments like Flowey calling out people who spoil the point of the Genocide run by watching someone else do it and the 24 hour request not to spoil Deltarune on its release, I think Toby really works to ensure his stories are experienced the right way while at the same time not forcing anything on anyone.
And I disagree with this viee vehemently. Art is not people, no matter hpe lifelike it may be, so please stop trying to make me pretend it has feelings.
I will take your argument under conaideration, but trying to beat me.over the head with it by taging my profile just seems petulant.
All the more ironic that you get rid of it by opening up regedit...
As if it actively tries to undermine his own point.
I liked this video a lot. I think you did a great job with explaining what it's really about at its center. Personally, I found the game to show a lot of things regarding insecurities. Toriel is insecure about letting the children go, Papyrus is insecure about popularity, Alphys is insecure about, well, basically everything. It made me realize how every well written character has not just personality traits, but flaws as well. And it spoke to me a lot, because I have many insecurities that I also have to deal with.
I was totally with you on this one - until the end. I feel like your hard refusal to accept anyone else's approach to understanding the game undercuts your entire moralistic reading here. Because Undertale is also a metacommentary on game design and the way we play games, a deep study on how story can be built on characterization rather than on plot, and a treatise on the place of passive lore in an active narrative. You can't argue that Undertale wants you to take a hard look at your own biases and predispositions and then announce that anyone who reads the game differently than you do has "missed the point" - that's you falling into the exact same trap.
Joe Brown that’s the paradox of relativism, I guess - it can’t consistently be asserted
“Metacommentary” “treatise” lol
Well said, Joe!
Thank you, I have already learned the lessons this game tries to teach in my own life, but, I don't know what it is for sure, but this kinda just filled it all out. It kinda gave me a fuller picture, and I have a greater appreciation for this game, and I thank you for sharing this with all of us.
Have a wonderful day!
I've always believed that Undertale is about how all of the choices you make have consequences, so you want to make sure that you pick the right decisions or else they can come back to bite you when it really matters.
My favourite thing about Undertale, is that it's not really as meta as people think, everything has a reason to be there and there's no such thing as a "player"
Flowey sees anything as a game and people as lines of dialogue, but not because he has fourth wall awareness or anything, he completly distanced himself from the world due to his lack of emotions and his ability to reset, it's not a game but to him, it is. He doesn't want the human to leave because they would "win the game" and leave, but not because he knows it's a game, but because he's so far gone he sees this human as his dead friend and this whole situation as a friendly game between the two.
Isn't that brillant ? I think it's purely brillant.
@@Sera-F1nn excellent, truely excellent
why would a game with many endings have to come to one conclusion? It's about many things, as many as there are plot threads.
The irony about all this for me is that I was not into video games at all before I heard about Undertale. Its meme-y status inspired me to check it my very first Let's Play and I was in love immediately. My life has been all video games ever since, but the funny thing is that as a total newb all the meta stuff in Undertale went completely over my head. Undertale changed my life and opened up a whole new world of stories to me, but it didn't quite get me to self-examine in the way this video describes.
That was enjoyable. You mentioned there not being proper analyses of the game's message but I really recommend Hbomberguy's 'Perverted Sentimentality: An Analysis of UNDERTALE'. You have observations along similar lines, especially regarding the Genocide ending, but he focuses more on that criticism of obsession and inability to let go until you destroy what you once loved.
Yeah he did a good job.
Was about to comment this, thanks for doing it for me.
I feel like this guy has seen that one....
@@katiestolealltheunicorns9309 Absolutely agree, in fact, I am having the suspicion that Adam said he didn't find any comprehensive video analyses on Undertale specifically because he had found Hbomberguy's. In the first minute and a half of Harris' video we see jokes and things that Adam himself uses in this video.
If not a coincidence (which it could very well be) I don't think it matters a lot in this case; Adam doesn't seem to ''steal'' any important analytical ideas, and at least to me, it seems as though he made a reading completely of his own.
It's a bit of a coincidence - I found Hbomb's video midway through production and forced myself not to watch it because I knew I'd end up accidentally stealing ideas- and then I watched it after the video was done and it turns out I'd done that anyway! Hbomb's vid is great, and there's a link to it in the description - though I'd say it's more of a spotlight on a single theme and on Alphys in particular than a comprehensive reading.
I wouldn't say it was Undertale specifically, but...
This is painfully accurate for me.
I've always been obsessed with stories, whether it be books, video games, or anime, and it's done a lot to affect me.
Both positively and negatively.
On one hand, stories were pretty much the only thing keeping my depression at bay. Hours of therapy couldn't accomplish what one episode of a good anime can. Slice of Life shows to help me ignore how uninteresting my real life is. Dramas and Comedies to stir the emotions I can barely even express to other people. Action, in case I ever just want to get fucking hyped.
Also, they've helped me to find what I want to do. Write. It feels like for my whole life, I just didn't know what I wanted to do. For a while, I thought I was just using all these stories as distractions.
It wasn't until just a few years ago that I realized how much I tend to alter or make new stories in my head. So, finally, I started writing seriously, and I've never been happier. I've never found such genuine enjoyment in something. It's helped me learn more about myself and my views of the world. I feel so accomplished when I get even the smallest bit of praise from the people who read my work.
I've found what I want to do with my life. Yet, at a few costs.
Now, writing is all I can think about. I can barely hold my attention on anything if it doesn't relate to either improving my writing directly, or at least serving as a source of inspiration. Even if people say I'm good, I never think I am. I hate complacency, which leads to me being overly hard on myself.
I was already bad at school, but now, so many more classes are impossible to focus on, since I already know what I want to do. They just feel pointless.
Though I feel more personally in touch with my emotions, I've actually gotten worse at expressing them. I can never stop thinking about how to improve my writing. Also, I'm still just as friendless as always, but now I talk to my family even less than before, as well. At least they're supportive of my efforts at becoming an author, even if they don't have much appreciation or understanding of writing.
You know, I think I've derailed from the point of the video by this point. I really need to stop getting so overly personal, but that's just what happens when you take writing so seriously, I guess. In the end, though, it was thanks to stories that I've changed my life. MOSTLY for the better.
This really was an amazing video. I never tire of looking at things from every possible angle, and you've provided a truly interesting one.
Thank you.
I'm a writer too, and I can relate with a lot of this, that stories could do more for me than a counseling session--though counseling has really helped me too once I found someone who really helped me (some are better than others, you have to find the person who helps you).
One of the biggest challenges of any writer is overcoming perfectionism. We want to keep growing as writers, but I don't think we'll ever be perfect in the eyes of everyone in the world since everyone has a different perspective, and that's kind of depressing to have to accept.
All the best wishes to you, your writing, your family, and your friendships. Hope you find people who help you be your best self.
2:13 - Introduction of the game
5:53 Neutral or G or reload
7:21 - The Skeleton Bros.
11:48 - Waterfall
47 minutes of video game architect?? Am I in heaven?